# taz.de -- Cameroon activist about colonialism: „The pain is still there“ | |
> Sylvie Vernyuy Njobati wants that „Ngonnso“, stolen by Germans in | |
> colonial times, will return from Berlin to the Nso people in Cameroon. | |
Bild: Sylvie Vernyuy Njobati in front of Humboldt Forum in Berlin, where „Ngo… | |
Taz: Mrs Njobati, you came to Berlin to bring Ngonnso from the Humboldt | |
Forum back to Cameroon. First of all it would be nice if you tell us: Who | |
is Ngonnso? | |
Sylvie Vernyuy Njobati: Ngonnso is the founder of my people, the Nso People | |
in Northwest Camerun. Ngonnso had two brothers. They fell into a conflict, | |
and so she had to move separate from the brothers and then found the Nso | |
land where we are today. And so for us, she she's not just a founder, but a | |
unifying element. Also, because every time she kept moving because of the | |
topography, I mean, in an experimental phase, she was trying to find | |
suitable places for people to live. And so when she kept moving, she moved | |
with her people to the present site. And so for us, she's not just an | |
object that is standing somewhere in the museum on display for people to | |
see what I still do not understand until today. She is our identity. She is | |
our history. She's our culture. She is the essence of our existence today. | |
When we look back, we don't see anything because we are unable to see | |
Ngonnso. Ngonnso makes us who we are and connects us to our ancestors. She | |
gives us meaning and history to hold on to. | |
Is she also a kind of goddess? | |
This would not be an appropriate way to describe Ngonnso. On the one hand | |
it's not just about what you see. It is spiritual, it's something more felt | |
than seen to us. But I wouldn't say she is a goddess in the world goddess, | |
though. I would say she is very like a powerful identity for us. | |
And the wooden statue that is now here in Berlin, is it really the only | |
statues or picture of her? | |
It is the original statue of Ngonnso. It is the only thing we have. There | |
are no photographs. There's no picture anywhere. There is no other item or | |
object that signifies her. We felt her absence. We felt the lack of | |
spirituality, something we would look up to and be reminded who we are and | |
why we are, where we are today. And so there was a replica made and stands | |
in front of the palace, so the people can see it. It is also very | |
significant during our Ngonnso festival that is paying homage to Ngonnso. | |
This statue is a reminder that we have a bigger battle to fight that there | |
is our real identity. And so it's like: Here I am, don't forget me, bring | |
me back home, bring the original me back home. | |
But why is there only one original statue? | |
Ngonnso wasn't just there to be an image that we see. It has traditional | |
elements attached to it. It has spiritual significance. Ngonnso invokes | |
fertility, for example, when the crops were not doing very well, literally | |
we communicate through Ngonnso to the ancestors. We are highly traditional. | |
It’s just like when you are troubled and even if your mother is dead or far | |
away you can always talk to her. | |
Ngonnso is now 100 years away. How can you keep up these traditions? | |
Since Ngonnso was taken away, I would say that the land has never been the | |
same. We had two Fons, two traditional leaders, who prematurely died. It | |
was believed, and it's even documented by seers, that they died because of | |
the absence of Ngonnso. I mean, since then, Nso Cameroon has been a land of | |
chaos. We're in an armed conflict in Cameroon now, there is just so much | |
fighting, people being killed. We strongly believe that the return of | |
Ngonnso is going to make it different. These fightings are also about an | |
identity crisis. It's about colonialism. It's about being ruled by three | |
different colonial masters. You look at yourself and you don't even know | |
who you are. You're trying to borrow language from the English and you're | |
trying to borrow culture from the French. And then there is still that | |
stronghold of German. You've been a puzzle that has just been picked from | |
different places and fitted is being forced to fit in together. And then | |
you just don't know who you are as a person. And that's what is troubling | |
for us. That's what we are suffering from. | |
How long is it now that the Nso people are demanding back Ngonnso? | |
We found out that Ngonnso is demanded back since the Seventies. Ever since | |
then, Nso people have been struggling to get Ngonnso back. But now the | |
question is, what channels have they been using? There were many different | |
people having the same goal, the same interest, but also taking different | |
routes to communicate to be able to ensure repatriation. It's difficult to | |
trace exactly when the request started. I know about a letter from around | |
1998. But I think it should be close to 30 years that Nso people have been | |
after Ngonnso. I always tell everyone that if it was not something that was | |
very important, we would have given up. Because in 2011, there was this | |
correspondence with the Stiftung Preußischer Kulturbesitz, and the response | |
was that Ngonnso was their legal property that they cannot restitute. That | |
was really a dead end. If it was something that didn't mean anything to us, | |
we would have given up. | |
In her speech on the opening ceremony in the Humboldt Forum the Nigerian | |
writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie mentioned Ngonnso. Was that a surprise for | |
you? | |
No. I was just quite impressed that she mentioned Ngonnso. We worked very | |
hard to make sure that the world would know that we were working on it. The | |
approach had always been a more diplomatic approach, sending mails here and | |
there, waiting for feedback, God knows for how long. And so for me, when I | |
started to try to bring back Ngonnso, I just wanted to take it to the | |
streets and just do it. So for me, it was about taking the activism | |
approach and going out there and also adding another angle to it, which was | |
a digital approach. Also, because the idea was how do we communicate and | |
then ensure that this communication is two ways? I didn’t want the Germans | |
talk about restitution without us. And so we took it to Twitter and social | |
media in general, imploring different multimedia tools to enhance the | |
campaign. If we talk about the spiritual significance and the cultural | |
value, Ngonnso is one of those thousands of objects where it's very clear | |
that restitution should happen and should happen really now. It doesn’t | |
need to be contemplated upon. I think it should go. | |
Is it you who is the head of the campaign? | |
I started the hashtag [1][#BringBackNgonnso], and I started this as part of | |
a program for an organization that I founded and that I'm working for. It's | |
called [2][Sysy House of Fame]. We have a program called Colonial Dialogue | |
and Reconciliation, and the idea is also just to encourage communities to | |
reflect on, and confront the colonial past and their respective roles in | |
order to be able to create a pathway for dialogue, healing and even | |
closure. We realized how much people are burning inside when we talk about | |
colonialism, and we've worked with some people back home and I've been a | |
part of some conferences with a great institution back home and the pain is | |
still there. It's so much time passed already, but I think this is one | |
thing that time has refused to heal. When we had these conferences, there | |
was always this pain and focus on on the devastation of colonialism, on the | |
violence, on how much people suffered. We realized that there is a need for | |
people to heal or just to be able to have these conversations in a mature | |
way, in a way that is productive. And so we decided to focus on Ngonnso as | |
one of our main project. And so when I started the hashtag it was important | |
for me to unify all of the voices, we have a lot of people in the Nso that | |
have done work to ensure that restitution happens. We have people who have | |
traveled to Germany back and forth to participate in conferences to share | |
their research. We have people doing their own provenance research back at | |
home, and we have artists that have already done so much to also just | |
educate people on Ngonnso. So it was important to bring all of these | |
efforts together in one place to be able to, you know, harness the energy | |
and put it in the right direction. The challenge it's always been: Who do | |
we talk to? Where is the right person that is at the level of decision | |
making? Through the social media campaign we were able to connect to the | |
German Contact Point for Collections from Colonial Contexts… | |
…which is seated at the Cultural Foundation of the German Federal States. | |
What did they say to your request? | |
We met online and we talked about the campaign and the need to bring back | |
Ngonnso. So they were able to give us directions on how to go in, who is | |
necessary for the campaign and what steps we should take in prospect of how | |
these could go. | |
While we are talking to each other here we are being filmed by a team. You | |
told us beforehand that you were working on a film about Ngonnso. How come? | |
I studied film in Cameroon. In 2017 I met the filmmaker Marc Sebastian Eils | |
on an exchange project between filmmakers from Berlin and Bamenda. We | |
initially had the idea of making a documentary about Ngonnso independently | |
of each other and then got together to tell the story from a | |
German-Cameroonian perspective. And then in 2018, I was doing a traineeship | |
program for documentary filmmaking in Cameroon, and I was selected by | |
Jean-Marie Teno for a film project on Colonial Heritage. I decided to work | |
on Ngonnso as my focus for my first short film and then Marc and I decided | |
to continue telling the story of Ngonnso in another documentary. | |
But now you are rather the subject of the documentary? | |
Actually, yes. I mean, I also contribute to the vision of how I wanted this | |
film to be. And we had some plans for 2020, but it was really difficult | |
because he couldn't travel to Cameroon, I couldn't travel to Germany. And | |
for us, we found it very important to also see how these conversations are | |
happening on both ends. Both in Cameroon and Germany, so we use the current | |
modus to do more of the planning, which is good too. | |
In Germany it is said that for many African objects, we don't know the | |
exact way how it came to Germany. What do you think about this? | |
Provenance research becomes problematic when it's one sided, when the | |
Germans want to tell our a story for us, when they want to ignore the fact | |
that we also have our history that is handed down from generation to | |
generation. I recognize very much the lapses in oral history, that some | |
facts could be distorted when handed down. But the basic facts are there. | |
So if we had if we have ten people from my generation saying that their | |
grandfather told them that Ngonnso was stolen in an expedition that burned | |
the palace, then you really cannot contest that, I mean you are allowed to | |
contest that by proving otherwise. And until now, it hasn’t been proven. | |
Is that the story that you were told? | |
Yes. But we also have historians who are professors at universities. There | |
is also a research which ist demystifying the circumstances surrounding the | |
disappearance of Ngonnso. We strongly believe that Ngonnso was stolen. | |
But does ist really matter how it came to Germany? Isn't it more important | |
what Ngonnso means for you? | |
Well, the Germans are trying to make it matter. | |
You met Hermann Parzinger, the president of the Stiftung Preußischer | |
Kulturbesitz for the first time in the end of September in Berlin. What did | |
you tell him? | |
I told him that we don't just want them to give us Ngonnso back when they | |
think that it is convenient for them. If it's a dialogue and we have two | |
people involved, we should have conversations that fit both people, we | |
should find a way. We should find a common ground. And so when we talk | |
about acquisition, how it was acquired, I mean, the museum keeps saying | |
it's their legal property. They are saying it was not stolen. So I mean, | |
then there must have been a way it was acquired. So how then was it | |
acquired and what proof do you have that it was acquired like that? | |
Did he give you any proof? | |
No, there’s no proof yet. We don't have anything. And as far as I'm | |
concerned, unless they prove to us that Ngonnso was taken legally, then it | |
was taken illegally. | |
What did he answer to your demand concerning Ngonnso? | |
I would say the position of the museum shifted from what it was. In 2011 | |
they offered to loan Ngonnso to us – which in my view was an abuse of the | |
civility of the community who owns it. | |
This was the idea of Parzinger: To circulate objects between countries | |
because they are seen as „shared heritage“. | |
But imagine the absurdity: They'll give it to us as a loan and we will have | |
it only for some time and then bring it back. But I think meanwhile the | |
position is shifting. When I talked with Parzinger I had the impression | |
that he has understood the value of the object for us now. And he was | |
saying that there is a possibility of a restitution to happen. So I was | |
holding him to time, asking: When is this going to happen? We cannot wait | |
another ten years. And se said okay, but it has to start with a dialogue. | |
They always talk about dialogue. | |
Exactly. I told him people have been having dialogues forever. So when is | |
this dialogue supposed to happen? He said: „Al right, we are in contact | |
now. We need someone who is like a legal authority of representation from | |
Nso people to whom we can talk to.“ So now we will have a workshop in | |
November, early December. That's the start. And he said, the decision if | |
restitution will happen can even be made next year. | |
Can you believe this? | |
In general it is hard for me to believe officials like him. But I was able | |
to believe him when he said that he believes that something good will come | |
out of the dialogue. In the end I also handed over a letter to him, a | |
formal request from the Fon of the Nso to him. And Parzinger said: „Your | |
letter is in good hands.“ | |
In earlier times it was a problem that the Germans always wanted to talk to | |
somebody from the government. Maybe they realised now that their | |
counterpart could also be a traditional leader of a community? | |
I am wondering if they really accept that. But these objects were often | |
taken from communities and not from nations. | |
You mean the Ngonnso is not that important for Cameroon as a nation? | |
We Nso people are the only ones who understand what we go through in the | |
absence of Ngonnso, someone out of Nso doesn't really understand it. It's | |
not a national symbol, it's not a flag, for example, or an item that it's a | |
collective country item or object. Ngonnso is a community specific object. | |
So I believe that the conversations should be with these communities – Nso | |
and Berlin. | |
When was it that you personally came in touch with Ngonnso the first time? | |
When I was a child I lived with my grandparents, basically because my | |
mother delivered me when she was still in school. When I was growing up, | |
there was always this this conflict between tradition and christianity or | |
religion. My grandfather was supposed to be like a traditional ruler, but | |
he also believed that he had this calling to be a pastor. So I grew up in a | |
well-grounded environment at home, but when it came to spirituality and | |
identity it was very confusing for me. | |
Did you grow up in a village? | |
My grandfather was a pastor, so he was always moving to different | |
congregations where he was transferred to. Most of the places were within | |
Bui Division, Nso is a part of this region. So I've grown up in various | |
villages in the region where the Nso live – actually very, very small | |
villages. And I also witnessed him struggle with himself about the issue of | |
tradition and religion. You have to know: We have smaller communities | |
within the bigger community which are called big compound. And in our big | |
compound he was supposed to be the traditional ruler but he couldn't see | |
himself to rule traditionally. And because this role is handed over from | |
grandparents to parents in a defined line of succession, and because he was | |
the only child from the succession lineage, there was no one else who could | |
do it apart from him. | |
So he was supposed to fulfill this traditional role, but he didn't? | |
Yes, he refused, he preferred to serve as a pastor. And so the whole | |
compound just went into ruins, for more than 15 years people moved out, no | |
real tradition or rituals were happening. So when I grew up and I moved | |
into boarding school and from there to university, I became totally lost | |
because I wasn't the Christian child anymore neither was I very inclined to | |
tradition. So I just stayed away from both. | |
Is this something that many people of your generation share? | |
Yes, yes. I think most people growing up in this generation still do not | |
understand that there is a very big connection between the Nso tradition | |
and christianity. People think that you have to choose between both, but | |
you don't have to. You can perfectly blend both. There was a point in my | |
life when I had to move from the English speaking region to Yaoundé in the | |
French speaking region. For the first time I was on my own. This was the | |
most difficult time of my life because then I also had to start struggling | |
to adapt to the French culture, French institutions, French administration | |
and French lifestyle, which was not really working. | |
Why not? | |
Because there is a big difference. The majority, 80 percent in Cameroon, is | |
French – and the influence is really so hard. I wouldn't have access to | |
places just because I speak English. I wouldn't have access to jobs. I | |
would be discriminated upon. I would be insulted because I speak English. | |
English speaking people from Cameroonn are discriminated by the French | |
speaking ones? | |
Of course! Every person from the English speaking region would tell you the | |
same. So when I had all these tough experiences, I think sometimes around | |
2012, I realized that I was in a big identity crisis. I stood in front of | |
the mirror and I didn't know who I was. It was so tough for me. You just | |
have everything around you trying to influence who you are, you feel like | |
you're being controlled by everything that is happening around you. And I | |
was just that hybrid Nso child that didn't even know about its culture and | |
tradition. So at some point I decided to go back to my roots. | |
Was this the time when you learned about the meaning of Ngonnso? | |
Yes. I mean, I knew a bit about Ngonnso since I was a child, but we are not | |
taught about it in school. We are not taught about our own history in | |
school! The whole system fails every average person who wants to be an | |
independent person with an identity. In school our history starts around | |
1884, when christianity and colonialism started. I mean, I schooled in the | |
village, but we never learned anything about Ngonnso in school, no one ever | |
told us. At some point we were even taught by some of our teachers that it | |
was wrong for us to resist colonialism! | |
Really? And what else do you learn about colonialism in school? Because in | |
Germany, we learn basically nothing. | |
We learned about colonialism in school, but not in a reflective way. Not in | |
the way that you can reflect and be able to make a critique of colonialism. | |
Colonialism is given to us as information. So I think we need to | |
restructure this system and how the stories are told. We need to reflect | |
the role of history in people's lives and have a holistic way of teaching | |
history in schools. Then we would learn about our own traditions – and I | |
would go to the palace, see the replica of Ngonnso and learn about her | |
story. | |
How did you learn more about Ngonnso then? | |
My first step when I began my journey back to my roots was with my | |
grandfather. I heard about Ngonnso in the first place from him. But when I | |
was a child I was not very much interested, I wasn't a traditional person, | |
I wasn't linked to my culture. So when I went back to him I did have a | |
fireside chat with him. We had to start the conversation from what his | |
position is now, at his age, about culture and tradition and religion. It | |
was also important to understand how his perspective had evolved. He so | |
much regretted that he was unable to take his position as a traditional | |
ruler. | |
He regretted? | |
Yes, he did. And he did outline to me that the So culture and tradition and | |
christianity's basically they uphold the same values. Nso culture would | |
condemn what is bad, christianity condemn what is bad. Nso culture uphold | |
what is good, christianity as well. Nso culture would advocate for being | |
good to your neighbour and taking care of people. It's the same thing with | |
Christianity. So he's one of the first people that enlightened me on the | |
coexistence and the importance of the coexistence of tradition and | |
christianity in the same community. It was the moment for me to also ask | |
myself how much I could contribute to my tradition and my culture, how much | |
I could give back and not just expecting to receive. I also met with | |
Reverend Father Tatah Mbuy, who has also mastered the relationship between | |
religion and tradition. He did a lot of counselling for me. It also helped | |
me understand what I'm getting into and that it wasn't going to be an easy | |
journey. And I said to myself that I was ready for this journey. | |
Bring back Ngonnso is part of this journey? | |
When I spoke to my grandfather in 2018 the told me that he would wish that | |
Ngonnso come back before he dies – or before he goes to eternety as he | |
said. And he told me: „Go! Make sure you bring it, I know you will bring | |
it!“ I promised him I was going to do my best. Unfortunately I couldn't | |
make it: He died at the very day when the Humboldt Forum opened with the | |
exibition of Ngonnso and the other objects – when I was in Berlin. | |
9 Sep 2022 | |
## LINKS | |
[1] https://twitter.com/hashtag/BringBackNgonnso?src=hashtag_click | |
[2] https://www.sysyhouseoffame.org/ | |
## AUTOREN | |
Susanne Memarnia | |
Susanne Messmer | |
## TAGS | |
Schwerpunkt Kunst und Kolonialismus | |
Deutscher Kolonialismus | |
Schwerpunkt Kunst und Kolonialismus | |
Humboldt Forum | |
Restitution | |
## ARTIKEL ZUM THEMA | |
Raubkunst im Humboldt Forum: From Berlin with Love | |
Große Restitutionswoche in der Hauptstadt: Die Stiftung Preußischer | |
Kulturbesitz hat das Placet für die Rückgabe von „Benin-Bronzen“ gegeben. | |
Rückgabe an Kamerun: Die Göttin darf gehen | |
Stiftung Preußischer Kulturbesitz will mit Kamerun über Rückgabe von | |
„Ngonnso“ verhandeln. Aktivist*innen feiern die Heimkehr der verehrten | |
Figur. | |
Aktivistin über koloniales Erbe: „Der Schmerz ist noch präsent“ | |
Wahrscheinlich geraubt und jetzt im Berliner Humboldt Forum: Sylvie Vernyuy | |
Njobati kämpft um die Rückgabe einer Figur mit spiritueller Bedeutung. |