# taz.de -- Interview with Rwandan President Kagame: „Fighting? I don't see i… | |
> Rwanda's president speaks to TAZ about the changing East African region: | |
> the deepening conflict with Uganda and the blossoming friendship with the | |
> DR Congo. | |
Bild: Paul Kagame, here shown speaking at the 25th Genocide Anniversary Commemo… | |
TAZ: Mr President, you came to Brussels for the European Development Days. | |
What was your message? | |
Paul Kagame: It is not the first time I came to the European Development | |
Days. This time the topic was sustainable development goals, focusing on | |
how we fight inequality. So it was of interest to us. How does development | |
become sustainable when there is inequality at the same time? It should be | |
inclusive, narrowing the gaps. It is what we are trying to do in our | |
country. That is what this partnership between Europe and Africa is all | |
about. | |
Until recently, your were the chairman of the African Union. What were the | |
main achievements under your presidency of the organisation? | |
I combined a number of things. Before I became chairman of the African | |
Union, I had been selected by the African Union to lead the reform process. | |
I still continue with the active role of seeing through the reforms. Most | |
of the reforms will be on the agenda in the forthcoming summit in Niamey | |
(Niger). The continental Free Trade Area is going to be in effect because | |
the number of signatories and ratifications has reached the point that | |
allows it to be in effect. I am chairman of the East African Community | |
(EAC) as well. I have been working on some important integration issues, | |
like the formation of an air transport common market. | |
At the same time, we have seen tension between Rwanda and your neighbour | |
Uganda. What’s the current situation? To what extent do these tensions | |
affect trade and the economy in the EAC? | |
Any tension will necessarily affect the stability of the economy, of trade, | |
of all kinds of things. There is no question about it. That’s why we don’t | |
need tension at all. But with politics (smile), we always see these things | |
in any part of the world! We have had an easy relationship during many | |
years. Tension comes and goes. We hope one day we can get rid of it for | |
ever. This time around is part of this history. We have seen Uganda getting | |
involved in supporting (armed) groups against us because they (in Kampala) | |
think we don’t stand for the interests of Uganda. They just don’t | |
appreciate that Rwanda has a different government and would wish Rwanda to | |
pay allegiance to them, something like that. | |
Some of it is not very visible. We see people being arrested in Uganda. We | |
have Rwandese in their hundreds, actually in prison in Uganda. Uganda keeps | |
telling all kinds of stories, they say these people are there illegally, | |
that these are spies … And we have raised this because we have collected | |
information about it and then they say: how do you know these details? It | |
is because you (Rwandan government officials) have people here (in Uganda) | |
and in fact they (the Ugandan officials) say they are against us. But the | |
arrests have been indiscriminate: they arrest women, men, young people, | |
they even picked some pupils from schools. The last time I met with | |
(Ugandan president) Museveni I said these accusations have no credibility. | |
Two hundred people were arrested, they failed to charge even one. That | |
shows the magnitude of the problem. That resulted in fact in us telling | |
people not to go to Uganda. And we cannot tell Uganda what to do. We have | |
asked them, we have begged them, we have even told them it’s ok, if you | |
have people in custody who committed offences, bring them to the courts of | |
law, don’t keep them in prison. People come and tell us they have been in | |
prison for nine months or a year, for nothing. But we have kept calm. | |
People fear fighting between us. I don’t see it coming because I think | |
Uganda understands the cost of it. We don’t want to go down that road | |
because everyone will lose something. | |
You warned Uganda in April. You said “if you mess up, we will mess up big | |
time“… | |
Yes, (meaning) if you cross the border. You can do whatever you want on | |
your territory, like arresting people. But if they crossed our border and | |
wanted to do things in our territory – that’s what I meant. | |
On Tuesday, the former Prime Minister Twagiramungu… | |
Is he still living? (laughter) | |
He is still alive. In a press conference in Brussels, held while you were | |
addressing the European Development Days, he was blaming you for these | |
tensions with Kampala… | |
He would blame me for everything! He is blaming me for taking refuge in | |
Belgium. I didn’t chase him! There is no case against him. | |
Faustin Twagiramugu and Paul Rusesabagina’s group made a call for unity of | |
the opposition. What do you make of this? | |
They are a creation of the media more than anything (laughter). These | |
things have been there forever. So, I don’t look at one side as the media | |
does. I look at all sides. There were more people at the place where we | |
were, ten times more than for Twagiramungu’s group, getting aware about the | |
progress Rwanda is making. And I am looking at those Rwandans, saying what | |
we are doing is what we should be doing. This is for me the message. | |
Secondly: These people, Twagiramungu and Rusesabagina, they are there in | |
Europe, using the generosity of the Belgians, turning themselves into | |
democrats, civil society that is fighting for freedom. But they are just a | |
bunch of hooligans! OK, but I can understand also Europeans sometimes, and | |
I forgive them. It is like they are looking at Rwanda’s progress, they | |
don’t like Kagame for whatever reason and they can’t stop us making | |
progress, and there is nothing they can do about Kagame. So they think the | |
best way to attack is to back this group | |
Concerning regional integration, President Félix Tshisekedi of the DRC said | |
Congo would apply to become a member of the East African Community… | |
I think it is a good thing! When an African country asks to be part of an | |
organisation like the East African Community, I think it is a welcome | |
thing, because in that we gain as a country, as a region. | |
You would support it? | |
I would absolutely support it! | |
You recently attended the funeral ceremonies for the DRC President’s | |
father, the late Étienne Tshisekedi, in Kinshasa. Can we expect greater | |
collaboration between Kinshasa and Kigali? | |
I think so. It is already happening. For example, we asked the previous | |
government of President Kabila to have our airline Rwandair to connect | |
Kigali and Kinshasa. And they refused. I didn’t understand why. It was just | |
politics. Under Tshisekedi they have allowed the flights. And the traffic | |
is huge. The plane is always full. We can’t even have enough! So it shows | |
already a very positive thing. We are even formalizing defence and security | |
cooperation so that we deal with troublemakers along our border. | |
20 Jun 2019 | |
## AUTOREN | |
François Misser | |
## TAGS | |
Ruanda | |
Paul Kagame | |
taz international | |
taz in English | |
Paul Rusesabagina | |
Ruanda | |
Uganda | |
Schwerpunkt Völkermord in Ruanda | |
Uganda | |
## ARTIKEL ZUM THEMA | |
Paul Rusesabagina in Ruanda vor Gericht: Bewaffneter Kampf bestätigt | |
Der als Filmheld berühmt gewordene „Mille-Collines“-Chef Paul Rusesabagina | |
bestätigt vor Gericht die Mitgründung einer bewaffneten Gruppe. | |
Nach Monaten des Streits: Uganda und Ruanda versöhnen sich | |
Auf einem Gipfel in Angola willigen die Präsidenten beider Länder ein, ihre | |
Beziehung zu normalisieren. Politische Gefangene sollen freigelassen | |
werden. | |
Prozess wegen Völkermords in Ruanda: Kaffeedirektor vor Gericht | |
Ein 71-jähriger Ruander ist in Belgien angeklagt. Zu den Nebenklägern | |
gehört die belgische Überlebende eines Massakers, das er veranlasst haben | |
soll. | |
Nach taz-Interview mit Ruandas Präsident: Uganda spricht von Provokation | |
Man sei „auf Krieg vorbereitet“, heißt es aus dem Büro von Ugandas | |
Präsident Museveni in Reaktion auf das taz-Interview mit Ruandas Präsident | |
Kagame. |