 |
Post AuOJs2gZ2djvamlDnc by [email protected] |
 |
More posts by [email protected] |
|
Post #AuNuFQi7HlZPxNyhpA by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 4 repeats |
|
|
|
Two different approaches to debugging a software problem:The Sudoku approach: s… |
|
|
|
Post #AuNuFQs2grVgSAcdIO by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 1 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I often do both at once. Whilst my brain is thinking through the e… |
|
|
|
Post #AuODacljXvvsZ7UQpU by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I think this is true if you're debugging something on your mac… |
|
|
|
Post #AuODacsp7ZbUv6o5se by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@Scmbradley true, you have to interpret "can" with a certain amount o… |
|
|
|
Post #AuODad0GftYhICI2U4 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 1 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham And there is the problem... It is almost impossible to get the &qu… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOGWuyGEHP5iqH1Sy by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham Technically, I've been a minesweeper whose task was to install… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJeQQPyvKnAIiPSK by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I wonder if this is related to the "overlapping bug" pro… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJeQYZUbr9ZaWvAG by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@chiffchaff @simontatham 1000 percent this. I think a lot of the problems come … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJez9crLhMsM7zdo by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I think about it more like a binary search, dividing the whole pro… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJfRM00wEWKq8Goa by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham But... when I'm playing sudoku (or, rather, "solo") … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJfRSNdDKyed7MlE by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@IvanSanchez (and also @artemis who made a similar comment in parallel): true, … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJfRZpBXIB1ibJMe by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham @artemis I feel, then, that the key is deriving abstractions from … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJfqJNDpzHjw61h2 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@baishen @simontatham It can sometimes be hard to know whether you're hitti… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJgFeV0QjyKhAkam by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham minesweeper works for me when problem solving |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJgTKS9l1YkZtwI4 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham Your description of the minesweeper approach reminds me of an atta… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJh2NVqNGfSCbNQ0 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham This sounds interesting. I'd like to see examples of both. |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJh2WjI6dlumujmi by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@a32 @simontathamIndustrial solution, which gives some set of logs and reported… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJi3OlXIhguKflcO by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham The 'Sudoku approach' in reality is your unconscious mind … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJi3Wv2zE3JcUHKK by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@essjayjay I agree that when you feel as if you've solved a problem in a fl… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJjr4mJzGRGmBO0u by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@agturcz @a32 @simontatham I once managed to fix a problem while having only a … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJlrrINnkgH9psqu by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@chiffchaff @simontatham TIL Chesterton's Fence. I agree that it can be dif… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJn1vMRdmjmcI9BY by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham if you use the right analogy and terminology, everything becomes c… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJnbebbPlyb4jH4C by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham FWIW the Sudoku approach was pretty much how all debugging had to … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJnboX0ViF5rNCXQ by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@DianeBruce @simontatham Debugging ASICs and FPGAs is very Sudoku-heavy too - a… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJntDGJob13U4gwi by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham This is very relevant to security research. My mind is a sudoku so… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJoYgm6zZ5gtCL8i by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@0x10f @simontatham isn't mine clearing for the "relieved of service d… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJoqG8mkxIBUsK7k by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
I don't think I have ever done the sudoku approach. I don't even know h… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJqZJikOOeDaNC3k by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham Both games reveal more given digits as you work on the problem. I … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJs2gZ2djvamlDnc by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham When things don't sodoku or minesweep, I'll start at the t… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJuEmd27Opgydz8K by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham Hmm. I would have said this describes solving a Sudoku: "find… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJuJcB4P0ig0nD2O by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@artemis @simontatham no, because in minesweeper you must click to find out new… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJuJiYgg7AznmIz2 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@drj But the thought processes used to do the solving itself are extremely simi… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJuJq0F04NMtGFaS by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@artemis @drj right! I play both and they do feel similar, in minesweeper you c… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJx2Zsryaohq1GQS by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham *Looks at my "Doom" approach* 😅 |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJx2i2Nf7B77pm8O by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@rich ha! That reminds me of a totally different 'two approaches to debuggi… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJxrxNqMh43UPFdQ by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@mansr I would say this qualifies as a fucking wizardry approach 😅@a32 @simo… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJz406YAq7hMFT9M by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham And then there's the all too common kaleidoscope approach: kee… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJzAHhBgTZBeWbOy by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
What computers are best at is doing slightly different things over and over ver… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOJzpKGb1tUTV2jbM by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham Damn right, I agree! |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK10BbhfLIRmYLjs by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@a32 my type example is where you first become aware of a bug because some kind… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK18mljNp17M08m0 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham For particularly difficult problems, I find that breaking it EVEN … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK18uvF4LNWdoeTw by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@JustinDerrick @simontatham Simplify the code over and over in ways that preser… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK1MYOXcdtopNrJQ by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham https://blog.plover.com/prog/katara-advice.html“Novice programme… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK1MhG0fjQGJWw7s by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham Although your description doesn't seem to match my "finge… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK2Kz3rbclEuK0Cu by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I will keep an eye on my own debugging style. |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK3BHHR75xQTFHpA by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontathamI love the theory, but the optics are terrible "miss/misinterp… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK3LvhpfNESkEiDw by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I have worked my whole life with Minesweeper approach. Just never … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK4UEaRS4MVZbmN6 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@[email protected] Indeed! I will go to great lengths to get a debugger. |
|
|
|
Post #AuOK88DKFrLVN6kxma by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@mjd oh, I think both of the approaches I describe still end up pointing the fi… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOLz4RD7mb4xk3flI by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@FenTiger @simontatham Oh we furiously agree both tactics are useful! I do worr… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOM2XXLOMFi51a6fg by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@DianeBruce @simontatham Well, in both approaches you have to start by thinking… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOMEIK5mXoMN1zJj6 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@jonossaseuraava Well, nowadays I'm one of those too. |
|
|
|
Post #AuORhPQQxEZSZBel72 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham @a32 Now I'm trying to figure out which of the two approaches … |
|
|
|
Post #AuORi3bTZbAfB188sS by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I like the approach, but I now imagine you staring intensely for 3… |
|
|
|
Post #AuORi3jH6bPRZCmN28 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@djm62 that would be a great way to show that a character in film or TV was sup… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOVPlcI6oAbzn2tQu by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@Staden I used to work with programmers that had grown up in the Soviet Union-t… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOVQkIYUnd2CFHUdk by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@FenTiger @simontatham Ideally yes. One should know what the code should be doi… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOVQkOa8ORuUw6J28 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@DianeBruce @FenTiger @simontatham printfs, or debug logging, can set the stage… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOVQkUblzGmncv7QW by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@jayalane @FenTiger @simontatham We are furiously agreeing! |
|
|
|
Post #AuOVRNh21jNeNS25ho by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@clolsonus @simontatham I find Claude makes more stupid mistakes than I do (of … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOVSCRBMQ0Pl40ea8 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@aspragg minesweeper You're gathering more clues |
|
|
|
Post #AuOWqdfJsYXR6mq78K by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@jayalane I would love to see them working and understand their thought process |
|
|
|
Post #AuOWqdlhUpdtQZpD4y by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@Staden They were impressive. They 8 spired me to take a moment to think before… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOWrTAyMdA2rj2c3E by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@DianeBruce @FenTiger @simontatham maybe I feel defensive since my last commit… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOWt4LhdnZIRfp51M by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@jayalane @FenTiger @simontatham Hey guilty as charged as well. One problem wit… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOZ0OThOrnYoGBQsS by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@john_philip_bell for the full Minesweeper "one misclick and kaboom" … |
|
|
|
Post #AuOecIlZaGc1s0RHP6 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham haha! :) - maybe I should have used a Jason and the Argonauts anal… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOjLRcRupa6Asx80O by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@biscuitcats @artemis @drj I think the relevant difference here is that in Sudo… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOrCqq7Zn7PQClFGS by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham amen. I'm always trying to minesweeper and avoid sudoku'in… |
|
|
|
Post #AuOw2rvx9ZAjgpY3Jw by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@foone @simontatham My approach is a subtle tweak of the Minesweeper approach -… |
|
|
|
Post #AuP2UAm1oYPRfGJCU4 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@aspragg @simontatham @a32 I mean, that's still Minesweeper-y to an extent;… |
|
|
|
Post #AuPi8mHxqk3Fifj984 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham over here we treasure the minimal reproduce |
|
|
|
Post #AuPiYrkw931ICmicHg by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@mjd having slept on this, the mention of Sherlock Holmes is an interesting one… |
|
|
|
Post #AuPiy4xOCYgiO1Z8C0 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham @a32 My question would be why this test suite doesn't core dum… |
|
|
|
Post #AuQB4lpmUlErp1zCW8 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 1 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham I think you're playing minesweeper wrong. Once you're good… |
|
|
|
Post #AuQPjchGlr1IiMNYx6 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 1 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham |
|
|
|
Post #AuUdyqAt7RrMqiDsx6 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@agturcz @mansr @a32 @simontatham Often that's recognition, I've seen t… |
|
|
|
Post #AuUdyqHyh5WzChXY0G by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simon_lucy Well, I do not know the full context of Mans's situation, but t… |
|
|
|
Post #AuUdzPBovyOzRjvclU by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@agturcz @simon_lucy @a32 @simontatham It was a long time ago, so I don't r… |
|
|
|
Post #AuVwWzQtCGXvk26Ime by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@glent @simontatham @a32 you assume the core enables time-travel debugging... |
|
|
|
Post #AuVwYtgvVvUKVwVmAC by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 0 repeats |
|
|
|
@simontatham @a32 I think there's also a minesweeper approach where you com… |
|
|
|
Post #AwAeHFI0giX2OTA9p2 by [email protected] |
|
0 likes, 1 repeats |
|
|
|
@Scmbradley @simontatham Minesweepeing can produce a log also i think |
