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EDIT: whoops I fragmented this, continuing from https://social.coop/@cwebber/11…
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One thing @bnewbold did agree on is that "shared heap" and "mess…
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Now the reality is that "message passing" is hardly a new termAs far …
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If I was going to refer to the CS literature I would probably say that "Ac…
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Anyway, language is this messy squishy thing but part of the success of the pre…
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Let's talk about some acknowledgement of scaling expectations, starting wit…
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> Other data transfer mechanisms, such as batched backfill, or routed delive…
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> Given our focus on big-world public spaces, which have strong network effe…
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> So, yes, the atproto network today involves some large infrastructure comp…
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> It isn't peer-to-peer, and isn't designed to run entirely on phone…
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> Operating some of these components might require collective (not individua…
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But before we get there oh hey, when I wrote my last blogpost I said "whoa…
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@bnewbold also mentions new initiatives like Jetstream and other tooling that p…
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Now okay remember when I said "this sentence is gonna be important"Yo…
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> This doesn't mean only well-funded for-profit corporations can partici…
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> Organizations and projects like the Internet Archive, libera.chat, jabber.…
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> Many of these are running centralized systems, but they could be participa…
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Ok, XMPP and IRC are mostly ephemeral text and I love them, but let's be ho…
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What are the annual budgets of these FOSS service-hosting orgs?- Wikimedia: $17…
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This is all to say, this is not your neighborhood block getting together to pit…
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I say this, by the way, as an Executive Director of a FOSS nonprofit with a muc…
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People worry about wasteful funding, and right now FOSS organizations are losin…
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My friend @n8fr8 of the Guardian Project likes to point at Signal's budget …
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Anyway we should give Signal the jet wing moneyCan someone get @spritely some o…
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So that's all to say that I think the choice of these orgs is pretty intere…
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Anyway I'll stop talking about the jet wing money I promisejet wing money j…
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But speaking of running FOSS nonprofits I now have an EXCITING MEETING about ad…
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Okay, I'm back from my meeting. I also have tea.We're about to get to t…
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Before we go any further I am just gonna say, I miss hiding the easter eggs, bu…
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Now we live in an era of "Goblincore" and people self-describing as G…
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So, is Bluesky decentralized? Is it federated?In my previous blogpost, I conclu…
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@bnewbold declares he will "choose his own fighter" and selects Mark …
Post #Ap14Zt5o7qBoZ4APOy by [email protected]
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Bryan cites Mark's definition of *centralization* (which I hadn't defin…
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However it's time to compare definitions of *decentralization*. First mine:…
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Now here is Bryan's definition (more accurately Mark Nottingham's defin…
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This definition of decentralization is so weak it may as well say "Users o…
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Let's look at the delta between my definition of decentralization and the o…
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In my previous blogpost I had expressed worry about moving the goalposts of &qu…
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Now you might notice this citation [Baran, 1964] and hey if you work on network…
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@cwebber This thread is A TRIP.Breath=Bated
Post #Ap1TF8QePO5Uty7KjY by [email protected]
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@cwebber @bnewbold cc @mnot ^^^^
Post #Ap1TF8eTZz99aqaNHc by [email protected]
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@becha @cwebber @bnewbold thanks but no thanks - not really inclined to engage …
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Okay so "decentralization", maybe Bluesky qualifies if we use an unim…
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My definition:> [Federation] is a technical approach to communication archit…
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Bryan's definition (more accurately Mark Nottingham's definition):> …
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So what's the delta?- The discussion of power dynamics, once again, is not …
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Re-read and compare. Under that last definition, even corporate but proprietary…
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(That last observation is thanks to @vv btw, good observation from a good gf)
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Bryan then acknowledges it's a comparatively low bar:> What about federa…
Post #Ap1xG1LDF8Xlplubp2 by [email protected]
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However, Bryan does concede the following:> Overall, I think federation isn&…
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Bryan also in that same paragraph goes on to mention some very interesting hist…
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It seems that there might be more of a concession here that Bluesky isn't f…
Post #Ap1xG1mraKf5DWqgvA by [email protected]
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Hey remember earlier when I said this thing:> now here is Bryan's defini…
Post #Ap1xG1uf7KtrbiUv4q by [email protected]
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We need to understand Mark Nottingham's RFC and we need to understand Paul …
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If you hear "Respected standards technologist Mark Nottingham's indepe…
Post #Ap1xG2BK7OEAROIE2y by [email protected]
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You should read the RFC yourself, here it is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/…
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The surrounding context of the RFC is a debate within the IETF and elsewhere: g…
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Mark Nottingham's own words answer better than I do, and you should read th…
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From the RFC:> This document argues that, while decentralized technical stan…
Post #Ap1xG2lpvdR0GdNNxY by [email protected]
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Let me emphasize a sentence there for you:> standards bodies should not fixa…
Post #Ap1xG2tzRJxMfvBtfU by [email protected]
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Mark examines centralization's effects from multiple angles. He has a *grea…
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Mark does address the radicals:> Many engineers who participate in Internet …
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While Mark analyzes both, his position is ultimately that of someone who does c…
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The history of the internet and the web *is* of big dream believers making big …
Post #Ap1xG3RfQ6tYMMwnA0 by [email protected]
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As a side note on the thread on the other place, Bluesky dropped one of my repl…
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Anyway Mark, tell us, what should standards orgs do?> Centralization and dec…
Post #Ap1xG3j2NWn1EF4fEe by [email protected]
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Note this framing: centralization is not necessarily harmful, decentralization …
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More from the RFC:> [...] approaches like requiring a "Centralization C…
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RFC, cotd:> Similarly, refusing to standardize a protocol because it does no…
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RFC, cotd:> Almost all existing Internet protocols -- including IP, TCP, HTT…
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RFC, cotd:> Thus, discussions should be very focused and limited, and any pr…
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Mark is not wrong that standards can't prevent centralization on their own!…
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But Mark, to be fully fair, does examine several strategies, and their strength…
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"Enable switching" from the RFC:> The ability to switch between di…
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"Enable switching" cotd:> Therefore, standards should have an expl…
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As said, I think "credible exit" is a worthwhile goal. But it isn&#39…
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In particular, Mark is especially fair to highlight that email and XMPP are gre…
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So I've given a lot of context for Mark's RFC: it's an RFC by a res…
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And this is important of course, because this is the RFC where the definition o…
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Except, like a 1990s sitcom, we're gonna cut to a break!We'll be back..…
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Alright I'm back from my tea break. But I have a confession for you.I made …
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Before we get into that it's also getting pretty late here and I have anoth…
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When we last left off I was peeling back layers of the terminology onion and we…
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So here is Paul Baran's "literally the most influential paper to affec…
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@cwebber I encountered Secret Goblin #1. I have survived this far…
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So okay yeah it's very military-oriented but... but! The context for this p…
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And just imagine the *gall* of it: telling the *military* let alone the world o…
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Baran comes in with the math to back up his claims, a vision of how basically w…
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Hm, did you notice I said "distributed" and not "decentralized&q…
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And yes of course it is literally the paper that gives us this incredible FIGUR…
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One of the reasons you know this image is that everyone worth their salt who wo…
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That comic is from Three Panel Soul btw, and here's the link https://www.th…
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"Christine if you love this paper so much why don't you like the defin…
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"What Christine you can't mean that, why would 'decentralized'…
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The term "decentralized" was *already* in active use! So Baran was pr…
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Here is where Baran defines "decentralization!" We have to read the w…
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Baran "decentralization" cotd:> In practice, a mixture of star and…
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Baran "decentralization" cotd:> For example, type (b) in Fig. 1 sh…
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Baran "decentralization" cotd:> Such a network is sometimes called…
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Baran didn't make up the term "decentralized" it already was bein…
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WE are not describing the future of routing small packets in 1964, that is NOT …
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Now I don't think Bryan Newbold realized that when he pulled his definition…
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What I DO know is that it means that the entire structure of analyzing decentra…
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To conflate the two *automatically* introduces decentralization-washing. I don&…
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Now okay let's point out the irony here because I feel like if I don't …
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But also what happened was:- I lay out a strong definition of decentralization;…
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And I don't think this was malicious on Bryan's part in the least becau…
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The reality is that Bluesky didn't match my definition of decentralization,…
Post #Ap37ZwK4nv9WlGTf2e by [email protected]
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Let's PLEASE not move the goalposts on "decentralization". Let&#3…
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Let's check the time.It's 7:30pm where I am. I woke up at 4:30am and re…
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I have a reputation at work of being good at pushing others to take off time an…
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We're about halfway through this blogpost. There's a lot going on in my…
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There's a reason I'm going really hard on this. I really care a lot abo…
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For tonight, I need to unwind, I need to put a label on a mailbox, I need to ea…
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I am signing off for the night. Tomorrow we will analyze whether or not my asse…
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We will also analyze values, which maybe I care about more than anything. And …
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Hello! I am back at my computer. Today we are going to talk about how ATProto d…
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Before we get deep into that, when we left last night I was extremely tired and…
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So anyway, I am better rested, and also I woke up to the surprise that our fund…
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But you probably aren't here to hear about my lunch choices or how much sle…
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So let us get to it, let's talk about whether or not Bluesky can scale *dow…
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When I say "scale down", what I generally mean is "small instanc…
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This latter version of scale down does come up in Bryan's article:> A sp…
Post #Ap37ZybALM0joqUKxM by [email protected]
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Strictly speaking, I agree, ATProto can scale down in this use case! For exampl…
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In some ways we are talking about two different things here: extension of funct…
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ATproto positions itself *specifically* as designed for not wanting to miss mes…
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Given that message passing systems handle small scale systems *beautifully*, an…
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At any rate, there's a bit of conflation here. "It scales down" b…
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At any rate, the problem with "scaling down" is much clearer when it …
Post #Ap37ZzTP5hOcX3reUq by [email protected]
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Yes that's right we're getting to the spicy part of this conversation. …
Post #Ap37ZzcyW73J0kLIPo by [email protected]
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But before we do that, I need to stretch and run to the bathroomSo for those of…
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Why on earth is the textual descriptor for Unicode U+1F47A "JAPANESE GOBLI…
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If you have knowledge or OPINIONS about "👺", its name choice in un…
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I'm back. It's time to talk about it: does Bluesky/ATProto suffer a &qu…
Post #Ap37a0BMSGYejOQl0q by [email protected]
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In the previous blogpost I said the following:> If this sounds infeasible to…
Post #Ap37a0KDvJeBAsZppI by [email protected]
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Decentralized ATProto is quadratic quote, cotd:> In fact, it is worse than t…
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This was probably the thing I got the hardest pushback on from a team member of…
Post #Ap37a0asvMyU0YN8nQ by [email protected]
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Just as a quick aside, regarding that comment about "agency", maximiz…
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Now, I said I won't read replies until I am done summarizing things, and th…
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As said I'm very self-conscious about these things because I *don't* ha…
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For one thing I derailed the entire Spritely morning standup by walking everyon…
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@dthompson came back and laid it out in more formal terms and said I was right.…
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"I think it's pretty clear immediately that it's quadratic. This i…
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Let's start with the following:- ATProto has positioned itself as "no …
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- We will interpret the most centralized system as one where there's only o…
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- Just as blogging is decentralized but Google (and Google Reader) are not, it …
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- We will consider this a gradient. We can analyze the system from the greatest…
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- Finally, we will analyze both in terms of the load of a single participant on…
Post #Ap37a2CqvgwJ0b8ycC by [email protected]
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So okay. Let's get the CS notation out of the way:"Message passing&quo…
Post #Ap37a2LiOk1pS5I3Qe by [email protected]
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"Public global no-missed-messages (or not worse than AP) shared-heap"…
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In other words, as our systems get more decentralized, message passing handles …
Post #Ap37a2d5M9vIJxPvVI by [email protected]
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Things are NOT good, if I'm correct above, as we make things more decentral…
Post #Ap37a2laqWjEkLOilU by [email protected]
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And there is no solution to this without adding directed message passing. Anoth…
Post #Ap37a32xnwchcDWaq8 by [email protected]
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@cwebber why not an ATproto to AP translator?
Post #Ap39Qa6iEPubAAtM36 by [email protected]
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Now I left more of the precise analytical explanation in my blogpost. But socia…
Post #Ap39QaGzcC8Rg3hZ4a by [email protected]
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Here's our story: - We have 26 users: [Alice, Bob, Carol, ... Zack]. - Each…
Post #Ap39QaOn9CNE4FLnEG by [email protected]
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Now just before you say "wait but ATProto isn't for DMs", yes, bu…
Post #Ap39QaVWk9lGP8VAjA by [email protected]
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Before we get into this, remember, the main difference between "message pa…
Post #Ap39QadgFqHcoQJgR6 by [email protected]
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Under message passing, Alice sends her message to Bob. Only Bob need *receive* …
Post #Ap39QaklpTxFAPdLUG by [email protected]
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Under the public-gods-eye-view-shared-heap model, each user must know of all me…
Post #Ap39QarrP7crWOx0XQ by [email protected]
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Sounds survivable with 26 users though, right?Let's try just adding 5 more …
Post #Ap39QaywylITsOGfaa by [email protected]
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Now, could we handle a million self hosted users? Is it possible? No problem in…
Post #Ap39Qb62YOy6ENaKdk by [email protected]
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"Christine that's ridiculous, we're not expecting a million self-h…
Post #Ap39QbCQAg4YYAZQaO by [email protected]
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"But Christine", you may say, "I heard gossip might fix this!&qu…
Post #Ap39QbJ9ldSat3io5I by [email protected]
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ATProto was designed for a "big world" view. That's fine! But I&#…
Post #Ap39QbgCNxtM2WVD04 by [email protected]
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@cwebber I’ve thought about this since ATProto came on the scene, and this fu…
Post #Ap39zyHuJwVGIF0H6O by [email protected]
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In other words, the public god's-eye-view allows for a pantheon, but not a …
Post #Ap39zyStf5IGqK93EO by [email protected]
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I may be coming across as some academic computer science nerd. It's actuall…
Post #Ap39zycp4BEXL6myhc by [email protected]
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This is what I say when I say that Bluesky's goals of "credible exit&q…
Post #Ap39zylgXEK3maw3W4 by [email protected]
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Now, you might think, maybe ATProto could fix this!And it can.And the solution,…
Post #Ap39zysm6rzg8aFiZE by [email protected]
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The point is that nearly everyone knows at this point that "sure, Bluesky …
Post #Ap39zz0ZdsESWltwiu by [email protected]
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Well, that's it. We've reached as far as we're going tonight.There&…
Post #Ap39zz8NAsTEuxYAsa by [email protected]
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Those last two, expectations and values, are really important to me. And I thin…
Post #Ap39zzGsfFHBLLWy8m by [email protected]
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For those who care about such things, tune in tomorrow, where hopefully we'…
Post #Ap39zzVlltBa5WUrLc by [email protected]
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@cwebber Interesting thread, thanks!
Post #Ap3C5xb20LJjnIvqHQ by [email protected]
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@cwebber THIS is what I've been trying to explain to people. People keep sa…
Post #Ap4y9QSo7fcJ9RlOiW by [email protected]
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Well hello.So yesterday I stepped onto a crumbled piece of sidewalk, twisted an…
Post #Ap4y9QcjWlYZeEPKBk by [email protected]
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Sadly, I'm stopping where things take a positive turn in my article: talkin…
Post #Ap4y9QlwyUvg6oigYS by [email protected]
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It was nice to be prompted about @spritely's values and it lead to a good c…
Post #Ap4y9Qz4BjQAlUrA00 by [email protected]
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I also clarified a bit: the parts I'm concerned about with the did:plc stuf…
Post #Ap4y9R7DhPwXAmffhw by [email protected]
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I do think Bluesky is heading in a tough direction though in terms of community…
Post #Ap4y9RF1EQBJYyJtrc by [email protected]
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People want Bluesky's devs to prevent their content from being replicated a…
Post #Ap4y9RNshTGq0SSyg4 by [email protected]
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Given that "anyone can replicate and index!" is literally the *entire…
Post #Ap4y9RWOBq4mQqRlwG by [email protected]
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Like the present-day fediverse, Bluesky was majorly popularized by a bunch of q…
Post #Ap4y9RetgCsirEQZCS by [email protected]
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The decision about whether or not to boot horrible, well known transphobic peop…
Post #Ap4y9Rop5IozM14Ufg by [email protected]
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For all its faults, and there are *many* and I have *railed* against the instan…
Post #Ap4y9RwccJ3lkCiipM by [email protected]
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But more broadly I think *neither* the present-day fediverse nor Bluesky meet t…
Post #Ap4y9S44Ad0y7ICfQm by [email protected]
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So to some degree, I don't have a lot of interest in trying to figure out w…
Post #Ap4y9SCZezouXgBSgy by [email protected]
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That's the kind of direction we're trying to build towards with @sprite…
Post #Ap4y9SK1DJm6ulfPIO by [email protected]
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But I do think there's a big collision course ahead, and I don't know h…
Post #Ap4y9SSWhga3L9eCYa by [email protected]
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There's opportunities for collaboration maybe. I've asserted pretty str…
Post #Ap4y9SbOAjfZmdnHN2 by [email protected]
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I'm not trying to be a mean, horrible person to Bluesky's devs. I'm…
Post #Ap4y9SxiphXAtuF7BI by [email protected]
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@cwebber Within the next two years, I expect to see them onboarding large corpo…
Post #ApAe6x5JY87tJv4r3Y by [email protected]
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@cwebber @spritely Fighter planes don’t even NEED two wings. Why isn’t th…
Post #ApAe6xJ8ijBY0nXtbc by [email protected]
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@Unixbigot @cwebber @spritely Amazing pilot skills, aircraft engineering, and i…
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