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Post AjY6olO44L1bHrUj1E by [email protected] |
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Post #AjUFuNpQh6ieujD2Ei by [email protected] |
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1/ Sidetracked into MMT since a bunch of you were fans, and Harvey’s book got… |
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Post #AjUGfEureEAOsp5tWS by [email protected] |
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2/ Only barely through the introduction and the start of chapter 1, but it got … |
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Post #AjUGtw8VklNoyxU9lw by [email protected] |
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3/ The reason that I had to post is that she started talking about this questio… |
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Post #AjUH4VkQCntiKDGBIe by [email protected] |
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4/ She literally says: “and they need to refrain from borrowing, that is taki… |
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Post #AjUHlUMTEfEeTfYBSi by [email protected] |
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5/ So maybe we’ll get a glimpse into this mechanism. Unfortunately, we have s… |
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Post #AjUHuuEWPjsbK8K59U by [email protected] |
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@Patricia presumably not an option for smaller countries with untrusted currenc… |
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Post #AjUHuuKC4ePtbiybzc by [email protected] |
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@ahrkrak that is the problem, the rich countries can erase their debts, but poo… |
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Post #AjUIIqa7dsvOwrqHqq by [email protected] |
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@Patricia In Germany economic thought is dominated by the socalled ordoliberals… |
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Post #AjUIIqfnInShESUogy by [email protected] |
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@wackJackle I don’t know what “ordoliberalism” is 😅 |
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Post #AjUIcewacWYKe9nZMO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia This is a good enough summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordolibe… |
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Post #AjUIcf2cG7NCwqcNkm by [email protected] |
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@wackJackle I guess this is a form of capitalism sort of? |
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Post #AjUJ5cnpf0hQP5Vw3c by [email protected] |
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@cpm I guess I’m afraid for the future, it feels like we’re all in a car dr… |
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Post #AjUKgk7pUwwlmb8Aro by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @cpm I find a key concept in understanding this mess is the Abilene P… |
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Post #AjUMIfvfeCm9j95x8S by [email protected] |
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@cstross @cpm Ah, I hadn’t heard of that one, I had heard of “pluralistic i… |
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Post #AjUMaPuHxNGrFOuNhQ by [email protected] |
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@cpm lol, even over here in Norway I have started to plan for how to go without… |
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Post #AjUMbsUv8s38D4juIC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia She was on the David McWilliams podcast a few times. As far as I can … |
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Post #AjUMhco2Ocs1HSQCW0 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @cpm i recently read "how to blow up a pipeline" by andreas… |
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Post #AjUMhcuQ0tyTbFPISe by [email protected] |
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@jakob @cpm maybe that’s my next stage of grief |
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Post #AjUMsqQi5FlGierOme by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Smaller countries do have some economic policy options that larger co… |
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Post #AjUMsqWjiqa91LgDB2 by [email protected] |
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@drgroftehauge it doesn’t seem to be a function of big or small, rather of if… |
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Post #AjUOBWp7ItNxMqkWHI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @cpm well i would say Universal Basic Income would solve a lot of cap… |
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Post #AjUOBWumxnvFeRP37Q by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @cpm the instinctive response is of course “how would we pay for … |
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Post #AjUOpLmJmxBQh9QeCO by [email protected] |
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6/ Ok, this is fun. Basically it’s a different way to look at a national curr… |
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Post #AjUPIUWANGx2CKllOi by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @cpm well it seems to pay for itself in the long run. so i guess you … |
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Post #AjUPIUbq2BUKTvQIEq by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @cpm Maybe we don’t have to figure out how to pay for it, my brai… |
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Post #AjUPkIGVWSnQJ0hbLE by [email protected] |
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7/ I really enjoy that a central part of her narrative is basically that “eve… |
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Post #AjUPtTfgU61cHrrF56 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @cpm the way i've heard it put is, public spending isn't paid… |
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Post #AjUPtTl0AKHKYMLUMy by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @cpm I haven’t gotten to that if that is in the book. But I think… |
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Post #AjUcCsz1nXkZk7vVvE by [email protected] |
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8/ This first chapter was super interesting. I have to think about it for a bit… |
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Post #AjUcPSxZrc3InVFMx6 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia It's the German version of neoliberalism, but there is an underst… |
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Post #AjUiO8tzYIgc1aK144 by [email protected] |
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9/ I think my sleep deprived brain won’t be able to grok inflation today. I�… |
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Post #AjUmw6R3d52Y2LEl4i by [email protected] |
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@Patricia be careful you don't set your expectations too high. No one groks… |
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Post #AjUnEIJGDh2c4oGSWm by [email protected] |
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@joelving that’s so funny because people talk about it like it’s trivial to… |
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Post #AjWkJFAtOMIqFswG0G by [email protected] |
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@Patricia NPR’s Planet Money did an episode on MMT some time back. Very inter… |
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Post #AjWps21olFspOA6MEK by [email protected] |
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10/ I am trying to understand chapter 2 again, it is called “Think of inflati… |
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Post #AjWqL3GvDTtpdy0K2K by [email protected] |
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11/ I am wondering how much these “models” are suited for a global economy.… |
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Post #AjWqYo2ucgWyTX0g7s by [email protected] |
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12/ People have told me before that inflation is what happens when the “econo… |
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Post #AjWqkmjRKnQrsIc7Qe by [email protected] |
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13/ I don’t see any sign of the Norwegian economy being “overheated”. Wha… |
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Post #AjWqyQGHfumyErTmRE by [email protected] |
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14/ What is a problem is that the NOK to USD/Euro exchange rate weak. So import… |
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Post #AjWrOVJjV7LBRoWroG by [email protected] |
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15/ And young people and families are being hit the hardest because they are ei… |
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Post #AjWrgtjLTLCENNHQ0G by [email protected] |
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16/ Meanwhile the politicians are on TV saying “Well Actually The Economy Is … |
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Post #AjWrxWa6nDPTVHt6FE by [email protected] |
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17/ So basically, I don’t see that the interest rate is the appropriate tool … |
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Post #AjWsCqUH47DTaISr2m by [email protected] |
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@adriano how is that going? |
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Post #AjWsQJ0iKOiHoQ3XOa by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The simplest explanation of inflation that I can come up with (MMT-in… |
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Post #AjWsQJ6NzJFa60i4Ei by [email protected] |
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@joelving but that isn’t right, and that is the problem. People are making up… |
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Post #AjWsVAkWTDCldens5Q by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Interest rates are such a complicated issue and one that mainstream e… |
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Post #AjWsVAqY6o1dwLcgTo by [email protected] |
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@joelving and that doesn’t work either if the inflation is imported. So yet a… |
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Post #AjWsZlroPTNTunPDW4 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia 'overheated' in a monetary policy sense means 'the amount… |
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Post #AjWscV9N1Eq6wBv7qa by [email protected] |
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@adriano based on The Shock Doctrine I’d be concerned with extremist capitali… |
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Post #AjWslA4ekT92B4qRYO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think you're right. If the German or French economy slows down,… |
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Post #AjWslA9yQhOkRZKgqG by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson They have done some things, but those become drops in the ocea… |
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Post #AjWswy636fCUVN7tLs by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun but I am asserting that’s not the problem we have. Our “inf… |
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Post #AjWt7b1vCwSu9PGOuW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @joelving My headcanon metaphor for money is not that it's a phys… |
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Post #AjWt7b8IpDZMTCFUrA by [email protected] |
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@cstross @joelving but that is not our problem. Our problem is that our currenc… |
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Post #AjWtBiYLBCuidnOOLQ by [email protected] |
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@cstross @joelving I think this model of thinking only works for large economie… |
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Post #AjWtXQCw4FYs7BjIqu by [email protected] |
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18/ In my opinion the most logical thing is that the NOK is down for the same r… |
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Post #AjWtcsATXUQYHRB6wa by [email protected] |
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19/ I’m starting to conclude that this is yet another Friedman-model fuckup. |
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Post #AjWtvxKeYyUDna2RY8 by [email protected] |
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20/ To be honest, I’m not even sure that MMT would work for a tiny economy ba… |
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Post #AjWu5eULTiLKFgCAb2 by [email protected] |
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21/ I am getting increasingly disillusioned with economics as an explanation mo… |
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Post #AjWuB9kmf96mfPVc3s by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Oh, about my friends and their homes: I think they did ok. |
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Post #AjWuB9qoIjvey6KQSG by [email protected] |
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@adriano 💜 |
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Post #AjWuLV46HWQlewTafA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia MMT—I think—would say that inflation is because there’s too muc… |
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Post #AjWuLVA7v7FdxdIP3Y by [email protected] |
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@alper like I say in the thread, that doesn’t make sense for Norway |
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Post #AjWuPXeEcXsepPIyh6 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia sounds like a good week to be visiting |
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Post #AjWuPXjuHSPx6zxVXE by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag oh, Norway has probably never been cheaper, probably the best time … |
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Post #AjWudqHu7C3eh0gAXA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @cstross @joelving the theory (and sometimes even the practice) is th… |
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Post #AjWudqNZm6awybKhNI by [email protected] |
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@luis_in_brief @cstross @joelving that only helps the part of the population th… |
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Post #AjWul5e5PhacLpViwi by [email protected] |
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22/ And people are so keen on simple explanations they are willing to close the… |
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Post #AjWuvr5RsmnSNqRUhM by [email protected] |
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23/ One thing that is very Norwegian, and relevant here, we are a high-trust so… |
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Post #AjWuzpGyZMBbupjAoq by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Those inflations are the same thing though. The person selling dollar… |
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Post #AjWvAfSvNB2CgUUCjw by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun we can do a lot of things, but we cannot make our currency be g… |
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Post #AjWvPOnNdMszKK4vse by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun you know what would strengthen our currency (I’m almost 100% … |
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Post #AjWwJ6vzEE4o9EfZpY by [email protected] |
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@Patricia just an ignorant 'murican here, but also: My impression is that a… |
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Post #AjWwJ71et8c6QpK6fg by [email protected] |
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@danlyke sort of, but then Germany shut down its nuclear reactors and Russia in… |
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Post #AjWwnOX6MU2tPtTDm4 by [email protected] |
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24/ but I think the currency lens is probably the right one, but not MMT (or ma… |
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Post #AjWwzg2z4OinD9Evce by [email protected] |
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25/ so maybe we CAN influence the NOK, but not through interest rates, but rath… |
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Post #AjWx4hdwYy4nbpvKuO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Whatever theory is true it will in the end probably be overshadowed b… |
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Post #AjWx4hjGFCKVsKPaCG by [email protected] |
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@alper I actually think it IS vibeshttps://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/1127185… |
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Post #AjWxBA0o0A2LKZhF4q by [email protected] |
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@alper global vibes. People feeling that the future is uncertain and wanting to… |
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Post #AjWxaNR5EGlQCh0nXE by [email protected] |
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26/ And all indicators are showing that it’s not working. The price of the NO… |
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Post #AjWxeniFTTIgrH9NKa by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think I failed to make the point I was making. I'm not making a… |
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Post #AjWxiENMnW9qQC1Cr2 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Agreed! |
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Post #AjWxtFJldU6aWoaTZI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia yeah, after I typed that I thought about my brother in law, who's… |
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Post #AjWxtFQVERUcrhjr4C by [email protected] |
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@danlyke @Patricia Norway might have made money with hydrocarbons but describin… |
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Post #AjWxtHxBpspOhf2zIG by [email protected] |
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@danlyke I agree, unfortunately the Norwegian government isn’t doing nearly e… |
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Post #AjWy8X0k8SAlkKyfWy by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun but the tools are completely different. There isn’t anything … |
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Post #AjWyVF6mrXcGsodNQm by [email protected] |
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@Patricia > weakness of the NOK doesn’t seem to have much to do with Norwa… |
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Post #AjWzaSbMDt1o8Jz86a by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I'm not saying that raising interest rates is a good idea. All I&… |
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Post #AjX1DGfibw9oNk5rcW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia put another way, 'overheated' does not mean 'the economy … |
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Post #AjX2uslowBkGwrJCDo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @danlyke I generally find the petroleum taxation and the Government P… |
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Post #AjX7n49LFFZLh9P1SC by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun yeah, although Statistia says oil is 23% of GDP down from 35% l… |
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Post #AjX7n4FirWfo0wO7Oq by [email protected] |
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@danlyke @malwareminigun this is why we have strict rules on spending it, most … |
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Post #AjX81jb5wMsgISNWPg by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling I mean, looking at the actual data, the value fluctuations are in l… |
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Post #AjX8O1GIwbPXSBHQsS by [email protected] |
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@dazo @danlyke oh, that’s not what I meant, I absolutely agree, but we need t… |
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Post #AjX9R8E5bjLzsMIAOu by [email protected] |
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27/ Looking at the NOK vs USD and Euro and the gold price in dollars. When peop… |
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Post #AjX9SlKzg5tBT1IbgW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia There's a lot of fear out there. Interest rates possibly don'… |
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Post #AjX9bKEdoVJo15PX0K by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling the thing is that people aren’t thinking “getting good returns�… |
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Post #AjXAbDxfEuD8VqzAOG by [email protected] |
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28/ I love how much she uses the words “believe” and “faith” - gets acr… |
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Post #AjXB0noz39dmyD7d3I by [email protected] |
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29/ It’s clear to me now why they are using the interest rate. It is the only… |
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Post #AjXB7i8cZvevN3bM5A by [email protected] |
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@Patricia How about the share and role of currency speculators in liquidity and… |
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Post #AjXB7iEeDWTnfkQATY by [email protected] |
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@pst I don’t have any numbers, but I suspect any other actor is a blip compar… |
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Post #AjXBQqQLzmXmZV1GNc by [email protected] |
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@pst «Etter en topp på 4,3 milliarder kroner per dag i oktober 2022, kuttet N… |
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Post #AjXBaAeW9jJLuo5jhg by [email protected] |
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@pst divide by 10ish to get that in dollars/euros. They peaked at around 430 mi… |
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Post #AjXBoVnSL5gnXy6vYm by [email protected] |
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30/ Maybe they have been trying to do exactly what I’m saying here? Reducing … |
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Post #AjXC1OA42RvndApFaa by [email protected] |
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31/ Seems to correlate? This is the central banks “governing interest rate” |
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Post #AjXCFMeURkpb0JimFE by [email protected] |
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32/ Lol, looking at all these graphs together… it doesn’t seem to matter ei… |
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Post #AjXCQbxjrZNDfr5UW0 by [email protected] |
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33/ Which, to be fair, is fully in line with MMT: taxes’ primary purpose is t… |
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Post #AjXCgTpbrVXx5aqtSS by [email protected] |
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34/ But then I don’t think there is any good reason for increasing interest r… |
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Post #AjXDlgCLPV62qVWsHQ by [email protected] |
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35/ it’s funny how Norwegian newspapers and even the central bank are not eve… |
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Post #AjXFtZQwe0PE5iFUn2 by [email protected] |
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36/ Turns out that the pre-Friedman King of Economy, John Maynard Keynes, agree… |
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Post #AjXGstzSpT6FVldkRc by [email protected] |
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@alienghic “the economy” no matter who you ask (I hope) is more than the ex… |
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Post #AjXHLlvRtPTUtfWohU by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Right, so rather than raising interest rates, they could avoid being … |
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Post #AjXHgpYDbotYDohhoG by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun I don’t think I have heard of that being done here… instead… |
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Post #AjXI6g7NIqtgUlTP1M by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Put another way, raising interest rates is an attempt to encourage fo… |
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Post #AjXIaImecipsoSuIGO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia It's somewhat notable that this is a thing the US does *not* have… |
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Post #AjXMZRhqMee80pVJdA by [email protected] |
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37/ … huh this sounds familiar actually (thanks @malwareminigun)https://youtu… |
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Post #AjXYevD1IeSkPaSpxg by [email protected] |
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38/ Apparently one of the things you can do in our situation is to increase sal… |
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Post #AjXZGoiRtCKzHIEbZY by [email protected] |
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39/ However, here we meet another weird dynamic: in Norwegian union “culture�… |
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Post #AjXa6vxODF5mnH4ew4 by [email protected] |
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40/ And one sector is particularly vulnerable: construction. Because:1. Materia… |
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Post #AjXaIdZOOvH1F5QkKG by [email protected] |
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41/ Which means, as @intargapoints out, housing prices are not going down as we… |
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Post #AjXaZST4vkxHjXUvmy by [email protected] |
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42/ The interest rate hikes are making a hard situation worse by “cooling” … |
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Post #AjXazPa8HfdaJMAmfY by [email protected] |
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43/ And that gets us the whole “what is inflation?”. Because if it is that … |
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Post #AjXc2GbEEiipHAbw8G by [email protected] |
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44/ Housing is also a weird market in general, because once you’re in, you bu… |
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Post #AjXcod6PsF1oy4GAyG by [email protected] |
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45/ However, if you are a renter you are also getting hit, again by different e… |
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Post #AjXdVcMAWU7p6f7t1E by [email protected] |
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46/ Or in kubernetes analogy (because of Cybercyn and the book The Unaccountabi… |
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Post #AjXe2P7Elz9db4mAUq by [email protected] |
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47/ I don’t know what the answer is, my earlier idea of constraining the supp… |
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Post #AjXeE1UWQxajnnCvke by [email protected] |
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48/ And maybe the bottom dropped out from under the NOK, but the whole oil tax … |
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Post #AjXeUXHU0ZbX1syyau by [email protected] |
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49/ is it possible that they are so afraid of “inflation” they are actually… |
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Post #AjXey6IEueLW12Qxl2 by [email protected] |
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50/ I told you, inflation is much harder to grok than I thought, because it’s… |
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Post #AjXgkZQXzpY0E9zo5Q by [email protected] |
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51/ Ok, I’m still on the inflation chapter (but getting towards the end, I pr… |
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Post #AjXhrHdcdNDv2KsOu0 by [email protected] |
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52/ Ok, I think I get it. MMT says that a deficit isn’t a sign of government … |
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Post #AjXiaHRiC9SvTKlHge by [email protected] |
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@Patricia now I'm curious. With systems with lots of complex feedback loops… |
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Post #AjXiaHXjpkHnm1a652 by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi From my current understanding that is an artifact of how the field was f… |
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Post #AjXirlrkLcNujzHNlQ by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi the rest of us did develop that. Look at everything from weather forecas… |
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Post #AjXjIR6ReTKGAFrxfU by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi instead they have developed very high level, coarse grained, numbers. Be… |
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Post #AjXjO9Uo1l9XIJzPmq by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi it doesn’t matter if the math and the logic is right |
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Post #AjXjtENJw79fP8J99c by [email protected] |
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@Patricia yeah that was my thinking, you hear about the new supercomputers for … |
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Post #AjXjtETLZhyXhp7xY0 by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi and related to that, something else occurred to me these past days: anot… |
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Post #AjXm2ms7FPcSuOOehs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The Physics Envy is strong in economics even for phenomena that are r… |
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Post #AjXmBSx0gPCjjMpA1o by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I like this radiator system analogy |
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Post #AjXx9ysE7f7ted56I4 by [email protected] |
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@malwareminigun thank you! |
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Post #AjXxUuTHgYQK59OVcW by [email protected] |
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53/ Ok, fine. Y’all have told me over and over to read Steve Keen, and I woul… |
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Post #AjXxc6iyWjyq6yAKzw by [email protected] |
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54/ Hopefully the link to the episode works, title is “Does Modern Monetary T… |
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Post #AjXyC5gHsqS3Ih4C36 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Paxxi maybe it is also because economic choices need to be explainab… |
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Post #AjXyC5mfV7YVcU3Hzk by [email protected] |
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@murb @Paxxi 🤷🏻♀️ I definitely don’t understand politics |
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Post #AjY3fUfqXUTsz1hTMW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia in the netherlands we recently extended an objective way to determine… |
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Post #AjY3fUlWCP1BGcM0Ce by [email protected] |
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@murb if your apartment is 100% loan financed (which seems to be quite normal) … |
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Post #AjY4c5pMYrl50b5s5A by [email protected] |
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@Patricia This is I guess also the cause of the political battle between MMT an… |
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Post #AjY4c5vOCSZxJHugTY by [email protected] |
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@alper tbf to MMT, half of it is just describing what countries already do and … |
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Post #AjY4o6fXG5Yz5rE2hE by [email protected] |
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@Patricia No, it didnt. Try this one https://debunkingeconomics.com/episode/do… |
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Post #AjY4o6lYtgNrOY2r5c by [email protected] |
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@jantzen it worked for me so 😂 |
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Post #AjY58DPhtKqbnsPVeS by [email protected] |
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55/ Short recap: he basically agrees with MMT on most things. One thing came up… |
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Post #AjY5YLdtv2mEr1Vigi by [email protected] |
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@jantzen fixed the link because we can edit ✨ |
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Post #AjY5s1oNMO3h8nnJOS by [email protected] |
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56/ Here is the clip, I have no idea if he’s right or not about this particul… |
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Post #AjY6OMwsJBC1xmBuVM by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi @Patricia Weather forecasting has been solved right? Why couldn’t the … |
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Post #AjY6ON2twm0uGT0itk by [email protected] |
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@alper @Paxxi that’s the thing tho. That’s the whole thing. NEITHER CAN BE … |
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Post #AjY6olO44L1bHrUj1E by [email protected] |
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57/ The parts of MMT that I like are the descriptive parts. Where they just tal… |
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Post #AjY7v4avfWg6Y95IXI by [email protected] |
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58/ Another interesting clip from Keen where they talk about how to “create m… |
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Post #AjY8Pc6Ff5WL9TIXfk by [email protected] |
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59/ Ah nice, finally we have some mention of a more “global” economy. And t… |
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Post #AjY9Famrms448g14QC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I kind of expected some of MMT was based around "all your debt i… |
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Post #AjY9FasBT6JmPAVJi4 by [email protected] |
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@artemist that is one of the 3 requirements for this working.https://social.viv… |
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Post #AjYBAzNf7bdWsI9yQi by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson I saw a video of a standup show by the comedian Josh Johnson w… |
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Post #AjYHKpTvNdK2nJAFxw by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Or that we spend more of it domestically as decided in our national b… |
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Post #AjYHKpZx1E8v5zz4MK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia also, NOK demand for taxes > central bank selling of NOK. Everythi… |
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Post #AjYHKpfyeoxnOgnski by [email protected] |
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@baggetun the article implies that it was at least partially a willed decision,… |
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Post #AjYHV7KlrP5Z3fmxH6 by [email protected] |
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@baggetun ok, just pasting links here, haven’t read them properly yet https:/… |
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Post #AjYHnXtfq3Z2ectxE8 by [email protected] |
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@baggetun a bit more detail and also graphs 😃https://www.norges-bank.no/tema… |
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Post #AjYICeotEjsbMfdcR6 by [email protected] |
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60/ someone asked about this buying and selling of NOK when it comes to the sov… |
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Post #AjYIJi61SCF3YM0yJM by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson I think maybe that is the Canadian version of the same story �… |
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Post #AjYJdejLmE9CrPU6tM by [email protected] |
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@baggetun completely irrelevant: they should get themselves a graphic designer … |
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Post #AjYKdEccwnMHqBheU4 by [email protected] |
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61/ Based on this is it possible that Norway is actually doing MMT? Sort of? Bu… |
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Post #AjYNFKkEpayrk6YddY by [email protected] |
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62/ I feel so smart when I read news articles that agree with me 🤓 🤣“An… |
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Post #AjYNSIca2OZsvB9sK8 by [email protected] |
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63/ What is absolutely hilarious is that the effect he describes on the housing… |
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Post #AjYNhImJjgxLkgrmcK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia As I read it, the other (primary?) purpose of tax is to remove from t… |
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Post #AjYNhIsLNHmE3Ngb0i by [email protected] |
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@schmerg @RichardJMurphy yes, it’s “tapping water from the radiator system … |
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Post #AjYNj7Z6OgWnYQYKCu by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I remember reading about how trade deficits aren't really a probl… |
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Post #AjYNzwYSaQkMKTH2Vk by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi oh that’s so funny. Because the model breaks, but they get so handwavy… |
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Post #AjYOPUYDKLjd0PLD2e by [email protected] |
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64/ Real estate prices are up 8% this year, that’s bananas. But I guess it’… |
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Post #AjYOezGjOtlAcTYJiC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia haha yeah 😀I'm thinking that whatever the Americans come up wi… |
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Post #AjYOezMP3oISu4CqYK by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi yeah, that is the part I worry about too. It’s like when I was a kid (… |
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Post #AjYOlWEbkPhmbAfq88 by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi I’m gonna become an economist and tell other countries that they shoul… |
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Post #AjYTxwCfWPrWNvVYPo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Paxxi I heard that advice, too, when I was a kid. Now that I'm a… |
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Post #AjYWkBs2m3EWmhzt1U by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi @Patricia Trade balances are fun. Denmark chose a particular constructio… |
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Post #AjYhT3X5cVrZUvEDPU by [email protected] |
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65/ After spending ages on inflation, I’m apparently breezing through chapter… |
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Post #AjYkAoG1yRJGlyExLE by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I’d have expected some qualifiers on that: deficits aren’t real, … |
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Post #AjYoRKc3qRWbZSg7ZQ by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling there’s a whole chapter 😂 but the basic idea is the radiator m… |
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Post #AjYoXu4qtzO5IcHMS8 by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling the three requirements for MMT to be available as a toolhttps://soc… |
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Post #AjYoepKcwbuUblxW6K by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling my radiator analogy https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/1127207302… |
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Post #AjYp3gw9IEYjoOMk1w by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling tbh, I’m not sure how this would work with a less important curre… |
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Post #AjYpxJXxRbXnU8ZcfI by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi @Patricia humorously, I read something a few years ago that concluded th… |
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Post #AjYqJ2VjSp7z1ItMhs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling MMT'ers would balk at your description of MMT as some… |
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Post #AjYqJ2bl6PwrJziB6G by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling Like I mentioned before it isn’t just descriptive. It�… |
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Post #AjYqSIS1ZHDr41ZVcO by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling and tbh I do think a lot of this immunity to consequences… |
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Post #AjYqWlq2FU19Mhw608 by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling here, the USD doesn’t behave “normally”(if we belie… |
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Post #AjYqfJUP1Dd835tIrg by [email protected] |
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@tedmielczarek @Patricia I'm guessing that's not really true anymore wi… |
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Post #AjYqfJamdUjaMssOoK by [email protected] |
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@Paxxi @tedmielczarek I haven’t looked up any numbers but I believe Keen talk… |
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Post #AjYqlBWnX1pR5voM8O by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling One thing to also keep in mind. There have to be water in… |
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Post #AjYqlBcpAceJOcdAWm by [email protected] |
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@wackJackle @BenAveling yeah, I think I write about that early on in this threa… |
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Post #AjYqyQTJHZrXCrUfBI by [email protected] |
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@tedmielczarek I suspect there are similar arguments to be made with the US dol… |
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Post #AjYqyQZKvAgPVYJTZg by [email protected] |
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@danlyke @tedmielczarek @Paxxi I don’t think so… mostly because the whole w… |
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Post #AjYrUzLf9COqdoRZ4K by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling @Paxxi here is the descriptive vs prescriptive posthttps:… |
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Post #AjYrcUIYTVD0epZ9Hc by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling As I recall, they're pretty upfront about that not be… |
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Post #AjYrcUOa761sxWNxg0 by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling not in this book at least. She is very clear. |
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Post #AjYuJ6mVz94y591w92 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling @Paxxi yeah, I do seem to remember her glossing over it p… |
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Post #AjYuJ6stbQBQOw125g by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling @Paxxi I get it though. When MMT (the analysis tool) tell… |
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Post #AjYuJ6zHDhHsij082K by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling @Paxxi I am saying she is conflating the two. Grep for �… |
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Post #AjYuRzClWYsTBpXfQ8 by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling @Paxxi there is a reason I brought it up. I didn’t like… |
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Post #AjYxOGt28qXojVEUm8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling @Paxxi you mean the part where she says that we should ev… |
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Post #AjYxOGyhnl5715t1cG by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling @Paxxi no I mean for example all of the times she talks a… |
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Post #AjYxpJuR0n6pvTmnHk by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling @Paxxi its absolutely unmistakable in the book, but if Wi… |
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Post #AjYxyu0KBGlUTl6svw by [email protected] |
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@joelving @BenAveling @Paxxi same table you have the “Inflation control” pl… |
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Post #AjYyHdt4KNOvzkeUwy by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @BenAveling as a complete financial layperson I tried to make sense o… |
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Post #AjYyHdz5xyDoIRTJLM by [email protected] |
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@rainynight65 @BenAveling I’m not saying that MMT is right, but the radiator … |
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Post #AjYzcpVgPRUK4tNebo by [email protected] |
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66/ Ok, done with chapter 3, the above sums it up, maybe with an addition that … |
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Post #AjZ0LxPjrvFvci7Pns by [email protected] |
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67/ To be fair, I think that issue is pervasive in the whole field. They are no… |
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Post #AjZ0oLgFF0DizZNRse by [email protected] |
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68/ I really thought I’d be more convinced by leftist economists. But they ar… |
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Post #AjZ0vsdv5MqNFasgam by [email protected] |
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69/ anyway, next chapter: 4. Their Red Ink Is Our Black Ink |
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Post #AjZ1XFsZekHq20Ybc8 by [email protected] |
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@Jackiemauro tbqh, no offense, but if your theory is not testable it isn’t ev… |
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Post #AjZ3mcpqmvRHTqjwXY by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I don't follow the radiator analogy. My simple understanding curr… |
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Post #AjZ4ZCh8la9Kb3pW8O by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Household debt is about balancing consumption over a lifetime. We bor… |
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Post #AjZ4gDrSpNsQF30P7Q by [email protected] |
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@Jackiemauro 1/ oh people who are in disciplines that work with complex systems… |
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Post #AjZ4nYIRFVDFeB7MC8 by [email protected] |
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@Jackiemauro 2/ Investigate when they are behaving oddly. Track and log as much… |
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Post #AjZ4rxKK81vsR56DXE by [email protected] |
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@Jackiemauro 3/ And if the system doesn’t do what we thought, 9.9/10 times we… |
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Post #AjZ4z5I8uiohAJTiV6 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The immediate consequence of printing money is that all the money you… |
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Post #AjZ5N0qT64RkKDwZOa by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling according to how I understand MMT, money isn’t really anything ot… |
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Post #AjZ5Sm8ufoK8SoJqD2 by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling so basically they reject your entire mental model 😅 |
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Post #AjZ5hBnu3wiW6XMga0 by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling but I personally think that this might be the case for the US, beca… |
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Post #AjZ5pJD8PKm1OS2RF2 by [email protected] |
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@Jackiemauro that was pretty much a stream of consciousness while trying (and f… |
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Post #AjZ62LVVBJZ6HOqW36 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The word "only" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. True … |
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Post #AjZ6IL6IScpfeUgOUC by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling lol, I’m just describing my understanding of MMT from reading 3 c… |
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Post #AjZ6IjY7YpLjTjsxBg by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Suppose the supply of goods were to grow by 10%, and the amount of mo… |
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Post #AjZ6Zbfk6IxdyHUoHw by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling that is your model. But that is all it is. Just like all the other … |
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Post #AjZ8bGtyUmca2Z4gdM by [email protected] |
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@Patricia All models are wrong. Some models are useful.Lets use the radiator mo… |
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Post #AjZ8gViArRI7Q53LrU by [email protected] |
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@Patricia If it was our turning up the radiator that triggered someone to open … |
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Post #AjZANyGGglKQN7Htho by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling I think now that these models are hindering the whole field, and by… |
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Post #AjZASTtb0zZ1dspkEy by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling I’m in essence saying all models are wrong and these particular m… |
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Post #AjZAqd2CgkwMw5NFzc by [email protected] |
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70/ Related to this, if you had a billion dollars and you were convinced that w… |
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Post #AjZAy6pqHyklO79w92 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia There's a tendency for models to start simple, and get more compl… |
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Post #AjZB1G32UaAupVpjHs by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling I recommend something called the Cynefin framework, if you don’t … |
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Post #AjZB4gRqnFzLZr4XOS by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Part of what makes economics particularly hard is that forecasts chan… |
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Post #AjZB4gXATUF3qLYmgK by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling exactly that is the “adaptive” in “complex adaptive systems” |
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Post #AjZBHxv39FMDWk3yfQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia New to me. Let me look it up. |
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Post #AjZBHy0io9tVoKiVVY by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling was extremely useful for me to clarify my thinking. For me it took … |
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Post #AjZC25xlZctNnNKWy8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Yes. Agreed. |
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Post #AjZCpNy7PwznpQzxnU by [email protected] |
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71/ Couldn’t get excited about chapter 4 and 5 seems so much more interesting… |
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Post #AjZDT2zCqhxcKtQ3O4 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia broadly speaking: you can't. Since money is just the working flui… |
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Post #AjZDT34sVcUucU4aEC by [email protected] |
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@RAOF I think the option could be to invest in concrete real estate and develop… |
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Post #AjZDkm2ka4nn08WtzU by [email protected] |
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@RAOF as it is I live in a city, I have a small emergency pantry. Anything over… |
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Post #AjaTQeSUrcmi6uxWyG by [email protected] |
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@PatriciaNew audiobook idea: "Steve Keen read by Patricia Aas" 😁@j… |
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Post #AjaTQeYsTttAQhwcuu by [email protected] |
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@ami @joelving oh no. Patricia Yells At Books, but now as a podcast |
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Post #AjaVpC0FzucH0Oa1ce by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @ami @joelving 🤣 |
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Post #AjaVpC6HdVR9J5Oq12 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @ami @joelving Or just "Yelling at Books - the podcast". Th… |
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Post #AjaVpCEn7sF5jTNdHE by [email protected] |
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@arne_mertz @ami @joelving rofl |
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Post #AjavKHoevtrSrh4wF6 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia it’s not there yet. Let us know when we can subscribe :-) |
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Post #Ajb17bxTKi6nIMXXwO by [email protected] |
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@samantha42 ROFL |
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Post #AjbIO7Q1pURCirM1YW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia A thing that makes it more interesting/tricky is that so many of the … |
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Post #AjbIO7VhUOyV0S0YOe by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Also, you mention interest rates as one of the few controls available… |
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Post #AjbIO7bN9JVnI2f5Em by [email protected] |
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@sgf to me that doesn’t make sense, because it would be like saying the only … |
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Post #AjbUgSbH10T74t7tbs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia In what I was saying, I didn't mean to suggest it's the only … |
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Post #AjbUgSgwfv0PMTmQS0 by [email protected] |
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@sgf that’s the thing, if you work from the point of view that what you are d… |
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Post #AjcKkrmOXIWnwekaky by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Not an economist either, but if I might jam a bit: I think what much … |
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Post #AjcLA7uLhzNfCoW3ZQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia inflation tries to measure that by measuring how much money changes h… |
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Post #AjcLJOkeSCHK3FOvmi by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Looking at the hockey stick in real estate and stocks, I don’t nece… |
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Post #AjcLmxrQzrqBL5fjLE by [email protected] |
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@Patricia exchange rates than control the flow rates between economies. Intuiti… |
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Post #AjcRHkhOTxI7GYTYdE by [email protected] |
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@b3n 😂 you’re basically just making up your own economic model now, and th… |
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Post #AjecbTT5k6bRQhJRZ2 by [email protected] |
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72/ Finally had some time to continue and this chapter might take a while, and … |
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Post #AjedoPC331XdtF4R1c by [email protected] |
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@Patricia This new Ones and Tooze is about Weimar and hyperinflation. https://p… |
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Post #Ajee131slRFUukLO1g by [email protected] |
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@alper ah, thanks! That has been a big missing puzzle piece, I think. Because i… |
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Post #AjejwXHxQtxh2T5wIK by [email protected] |
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@alper well that was bleak. I’m not liking that these years before the second… |
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Post #AjevXFzbnhePbgDzoO by [email protected] |
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73/ Well there it is, I wasn’t off base after all. Because of the position of… |
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Post #AjewXfWgy20SkgSY1w by [email protected] |
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74/ Some Norwegians have recommended that we peg the NOK to the Euro, and I thi… |
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Post #Ajf3iJdHPJhPiLZ4hE by [email protected] |
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75/ Chapter 5: “‘Winning’ at trade” is interesting, but doesn’t reall… |
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Post #Ajf4IRpSPWPPYmUQfQ by [email protected] |
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76/ The “winning vs losing” at trade is explicitly directed at Donald Trump… |
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Post #Ajf5m7GZWhpyQZspQe by [email protected] |
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77/ What I appreciate:1. She is clear that the challenges that face us in the y… |
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Post #Ajf6CwjomKMBarMAOe by [email protected] |
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78/ I think 4 is essential for progress to be made, because the current right a… |
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Post #Ajf6UlHg6PQ3HZgnRo by [email protected] |
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79/ But the book is supposed to not just be a work of ideology, but provide a w… |
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Post #Ajf6gMy4KrXrLG3IqO by [email protected] |
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80/ Chapter 6 is on entitlement programs, but I think I’m going to go back to… |
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Post #Ajf7xHVty3LhIpVOl6 by [email protected] |
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81/ why are we humans so ready to blame all of our problems on “the other”.… |
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Post #Ajf82iDS7FpZZCSvI0 by [email protected] |
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82/ Norwegian lyrics:“Han der er ikke sånn som degFort deg bort og ta hanDet… |
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Post #Ajf8EQt2N6THIPVNtw by [email protected] |
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83/ Rudimentary English translation:“He's not like youHurry over and get … |
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Post #AjfHFIBV6w4OBRcsfQ by [email protected] |
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84/ Ok, chapter 4 “Their red ink, is our black ink”. I think it was Keen in… |
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Post #AjfHgwSRU43AuKjc2K by [email protected] |
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85/ So if “the amount of money” we have is flexible, and that the value of … |
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Post #AjfIE0jgbBuxjSZKWe by [email protected] |
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@Patricia MMT = Magic Money Tree?There's lot of ways in which the money sup… |
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Post #AjfINbCcO00NRCfp5c by [email protected] |
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86/ I can accept that the relationship with a currency is different when one ha… |
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Post #AjfIozSyHY0YVdNrJw by [email protected] |
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87/ It’s funny because in my paper on Costa Rica (which I mentioned in anothe… |
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Post #AjfJ1BsHyRSgT52kk4 by [email protected] |
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88/ And as I mentioned earlier, maybe the dollar has some protection here. That… |
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Post #AjfJARK5uFAazFSY8O by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling MMT is Modern Monetary Theory, which is what this book is about (an… |
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Post #AjfJMJeQFykUfQdB0C by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling one of its premises is that a currency issuer can “print money at… |
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Post #AjfJboyA68Y28wG0gq by [email protected] |
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@Patricia When the gold standard was still there, people definitely noticed the… |
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Post #AjfJsxRzonQzN0NpdQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The word "only" is doing a lot of work in that statement. A… |
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Post #AjfJu3LdNSkXwxvi9w by [email protected] |
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@Patricia bread is not fungible because fresh bread is not interchangeable with… |
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Post #AjfJu3RJ2NHqEYaF04 by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag yeah, but in my head… money is perhaps slightly consumable? At le… |
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Post #AjfJzuHG0xw9YVfqEa by [email protected] |
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@Patricia that also applies to commodities including gold. i remember the gold … |
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Post #AjfJzuMvfsTRq6KN4i by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag oh, that’s interesting, do you have a link? |
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Post #AjfKATpGhVKehfckgS by [email protected] |
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@BenAveling it’s funny because one of the other books talked about making mon… |
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Post #AjfKSAwddg2tMCVcyO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Ironic. The rich keep rather less of their wealth in the form of mone… |
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Post #AjfM3JsbTwG3jkthbM by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I mean, in so far as printing money driving inflation, there's a … |
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Post #AjfMLfbxQJ7eLfrTeK by [email protected] |
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89/ Well, shit this is damning 😂“Cases 5 and 6 underscore the lack of a ca… |
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Post #AjfMewmZnyfH6f1Kbo by [email protected] |
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90/ I know after the rant I’ve been on the last few weeks that I shouldn’t … |
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Post #AjfNdqP48ZUWzD3sCe by [email protected] |
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@Patricia which of the books so far has explored what money actually is in a wa… |
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Post #AjfOERBMs3jbTn6TMu by [email protected] |
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91/ Oh here he goes into another side of this (very US centric): that the incre… |
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Post #AjfOOOMiCQQ3de9kDA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia to me predicting it? no sadly lol |
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Post #AjfOOOSNrKxLvEoH3I by [email protected] |
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@Patricia i'd noticed the price of gold was following this pattern, though … |
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Post #AjfOOOY3WFUeCpSntQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia well here's some evidence https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvard… |
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Post #AjfORn7mbMqlIRnIjg by [email protected] |
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@igimenezblb @Patricia i mean quantitative easing didn't produce any of the… |
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Post #AjfORnDSGHO3a2RpZo by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb I need to read more on quantitative easing |
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Post #AjfOcgEAaK235iyQu8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia i mean it figures that the new money has to *actually circulate* befo… |
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Post #AjfOcgJqFEZLNJcxkG by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag in the study they looked for inflation in the next five years, that… |
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Post #AjfOgyEjZMXI6VHdiK by [email protected] |
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@baggetun we’re not at the level of a bank here |
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Post #AjfOyKsedJoDFuEiK8 by [email protected] |
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@hallvors I really liked “Money” but I read that years ago. It was a lot of… |
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Post #AjfQN6SnTLpLjfW1x2 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb yeah well the thinking seemed to be if you put more mone… |
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Post #AjfQN6YT8GMe1GAYnA by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb hm, but according to his TED talk (the post after in t… |
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Post #AjfQZFxfz6wmfUkp7o by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb ah sorry, even further down. The article I was talking… |
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Post #AjfQcTISrQomtb0jei by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb screenshot from the TED talk |
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Post #AjfQkN8pd8GK7cGxfc by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb if nothing else, this graph is unintuitive for me |
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Post #AjfR5avXZRZgxUAvey by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb well i guess if you define average household wealth as e… |
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Post #AjfR5b1ZD2OZGAzk3M by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb according to his TED talk it did make houses more expe… |
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Post #AjfRWFE6MS0lTRZ4wi by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb well i don't know what any of that means tbh. but my… |
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Post #AjfRWFK802pdm8NtL6 by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb Funnily I think I posted something to that effect some… |
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Post #AjfRvOi8EfMa82bZhI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb yeah well you can't "spend" houses can you… |
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Post #AjfRvOnntZtsPdG6XQ by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb I guess this is what Harvey was talking about (last th… |
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Post #AjfS53W7t6fvIGawe8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb yeah well if you rent it's an altogether different p… |
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Post #AjfS53c9WhUnaxPl2W by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb as for borrowing against it, well afaik most landlords a… |
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Post #AjfS53hTCvkVrRu0KO by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb if they bought it for a million and it increased in va… |
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Post #AjfSE13IQDymFrNltw by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb well i think it all just comes down to the concept of &q… |
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Post #AjfSE19K3oneYYCaIK by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb right now I’m starting to wonder if we actually know… |
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Post #AjfSMSi9TEPwM1WHh2 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb it's possible that this makes sense but i am at a de… |
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Post #AjfSMSoB6pEoeiL65Q by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb have fun! |
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Post #AjfTIt6rTmJP1WwA4G by [email protected] |
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92/ As some folks have alluded at (where does the new money actually go) and ba… |
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Post #AjfTLiK22lpSR3ReOO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb too late |
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Post #AjfTLiQ3gMeKjkGSmm by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb oh sorry, I hope it wasn’t me 😅 |
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Post #AjfUEiH5vBdqDQISEy by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb lol i mean i'm already having fun. economics chat is… |
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Post #AjfUEiMPbPtYTumhWq by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb ah, good! 😃 |
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Post #AjfUuagMXYLqpY5I2a by [email protected] |
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93/ Even if we accept that money doesn’t work the way it works for us “mone… |
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Post #AjfUzF3MNrs7CH3is4 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb in the meantime i can explain why space time is 11 dime… |
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Post #AjfUzF922mPPTriFiC by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb Physics makes my soul hurt 😂🍻 |
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Post #AjfVMHliSDqSHMnJGS by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson I would’ve said the same a month ago, but now I’m not so s… |
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Post #AjfVXvOzREfMNxiM52 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb yeah but in a good way right. like that bit in your ankl… |
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Post #AjfVXvUf69CefYMsvA by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb Kid Patricia was angry for a long time that the univer… |
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Post #AjfVqCDpdlwvlSCwUK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb yeah yeah well the fun part is that it doesn't. only… |
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Post #AjfVqCKZEjKy6LMJzE by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb see? Soul ouch 🤣 |
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Post #AjfVvmidNEAwPBHQXI by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb I don’t understand the economy I have zero faith I c… |
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Post #AjfVwrSJFRvZNx9ptQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @igimenezblb this is the title of my next disco music |
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Post #AjfVwrYKt2kRgdyeHo by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @igimenezblb 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post #AjfXGJD0O2J6uspv9c by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @mrsbeanbag I think if you want to talk with me at the level o… |
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Post #AjfXQBKyVWK1OpGvXk by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia yeah well i think about the early days of our Tory g… |
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Post #AjfXQBR0978thW5jw8 by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag Yes, exactly that. Saying borrowing is always the wrong thing is a… |
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Post #AjfXQBX1mhxm0CuYKW by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia but we have a thing that the media does which is the… |
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Post #AjfXQBdPOz4EJzteHA by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson and I’m starting to wonder if our mental models … |
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Post #AjfXQBjR2Zt6cgiSfY by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia and now Labour have to deal with high inflation and … |
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Post #AjfXdCicgNk9RrXhwW by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @mrsbeanbag unfortunately rn to me… it looks like it might a… |
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Post #AjfXtzms0ygWGUXIae by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @mrsbeanbag You probably need to read all my other book thread… |
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Post #AjfYG7WJwafIcTLSHA by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson @Patricia your commentary on Kelton made me think … |
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Post #AjfYG7cLaBUAvAAGfY by [email protected] |
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@hypostase @mrsbeanbag @david_megginson I mean, it’s definitely interesting i… |
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Post #AjfYUrgt52CTrvJndo by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag I haven't followed UK politics all that closely, but I suspect … |
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Post #AjfYUrmuid1MAc8c2C by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia well the actual campaign leaflet i received through … |
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Post #AjfYUrswMDqETIxQQa by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag I don't even know what that means. "Strict rules" ca… |
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Post #AjfYUryG2S5wjnRfiS by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia well i think we are meant to understand something by… |
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Post #AjfYUs3vhMdF1O6CYa by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia the enduring myth that Labour "bankrupts the co… |
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Post #AjfYUs9xKxS7K4v0wy by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia it's an easy thing to understand that there'… |
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Post #AjfYUsFyyYGzcljpLM by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson that money behaves/looks differently when you are … |
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Post #AjfYUsf9SyPEspVvZg by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia there's that famous Thatcher quote about "e… |
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Post #AjfYZPtjqA2V7RV2p6 by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson she was apparently a fan of the Chicago uni people… |
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Post #AjfYl13A3BnHWsRDpg by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @Patricia i have struggled to explain this to my own parents. … |
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Post #AjfYl19Bgmc9pZG2E4 by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson when *I* spend money it definitely feels that way … |
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Post #AjfZ5qsX3wyY43Oydk by [email protected] |
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@Patricia one of the challenges I have when pondering money in this way is thin… |
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Post #AjfZ5qyYhXnQMkDn28 by [email protected] |
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@danlyke or maybe it could be… free education? Or childcare? Or healthcare? W… |
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Post #AjfZ9o3JVoAsSRKXxY by [email protected] |
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@danlyke that’s why I said, maybe the effect of the “hole filling” depend… |
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Post #AjfZGAFJuRt11lyhNI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson when you're a node in the pipe system, if it goe… |
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Post #AjfZGAKzZMQJJMdEDQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson but this is literally how my parents have put it: &q… |
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Post #AjfZGAQfEGxbaxHl3Y by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson we are the 3-dimensional beings observing the 4-di… |
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Post #AjfZIEQ3MgWkY7z4sK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson yeah well that's the thing. when the govt spends… |
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Post #AjfZMavxb8TlXGzN5s by [email protected] |
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@Patricia right, because I used Tesla stock there, but in the late '90s or … |
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Post #AjfZMb1dG313ordtw0 by [email protected] |
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@danlyke exactly |
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Post #AjfZtw1mC0J4VsbhdA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson i actually don't know how to explain it to them … |
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Post #AjfZtw7npb7woZQW1Y by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson i really struggle to get how people cannot fathom th… |
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Post #AjfZtwEBRsEP8MPbyC by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson my mental model in the beginning of the book was v… |
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Post #AjfZtx789aBRsm7UcC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson it's like a failure of object permanence except … |
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Post #Ajfa36pNPLTgcCBKng by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson but from the point of view of the radiator system�… |
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Post #AjfaOPrroPNvkSVTaC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson yeah well kinda except also the system has these mag… |
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Post #AjfaOPyFQgUO4FUZWq by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson and we can put in more, and the magic water genera… |
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Post #AjfaUHh96z5k8cI3PM by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson and well. if you want a physics metaphor then quantu… |
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Post #AjfaUHmoltd2QCwaFU by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @david_megginson I thought we already established the physics vs Pa… |
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Post #AjfaUI5be2epMTjaXA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson because here's the thing, money isn't a subs… |
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Post #AjfpGoFykWmUNvcEqm by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson yeah it circulates. that's the key thing that pe… |
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Post #AjfpGoM0O7bMgcR3FA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @david_megginson and yet the degree of incredulousness i've had w… |
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Post #AjfpGoS21iQEzJFrdY by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag Yes, it's more about how much money in total is in "circul… |
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Post #AjfpGoYPdzWhJ6ExaC by [email protected] |
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@david_megginson @mrsbeanbag and those models seem to be wrong about that.https… |
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Post #AjfzjxfPqABvVg3LgO by [email protected] |
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94/ Still in chapter 4. She was discussing another economist, Wynne Godley, and… |
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Post #Ajg16ZxYFZmOb4suHI by [email protected] |
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95/ so far my (quite shallow) understanding is that these “accounting models�… |
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Post #Ajg1nbV6OcIlpS5rLU by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @danlyke incidentally, this is why I'm somewhat leary of sovereig… |
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Post #Ajg1nbb82D7e88ufjs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @danlyke (a sovereign wealth fund may make some sense in somewhere li… |
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Post #Ajg1nbh9fnwWQpjU8G by [email protected] |
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@RAOF @danlyke funnily enough we actually do use a relatively small portion of … |
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Post #Ajg2D20oxo6bID3Raa by [email protected] |
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@bjoernstaerk it does make sense, also historically, but that makes it all the … |
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Post #Ajg2L69HT5xoRErGC0 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia so whether people have good lives, feel successful, included, or not,… |
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Post #Ajg3cEYPZR7pNsLbUG by [email protected] |
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96/ I am worried that I’m finding this theory appealing just because the othe… |
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Post #Ajg3ebDwFv5sGwtpU8 by [email protected] |
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97/ Brains suck |
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Post #Ajg4gqvawHdxVkxR0i by [email protected] |
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98/ Ok, but if this is true, this seems to imply to me that austerity is counte… |
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Post #Ajg5LxwnkIBD9e7tHU by [email protected] |
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@jautero 🤷🏻♀️ |
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Post #Ajg5psTWehyEs1hCgi by [email protected] |
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99/ my logic being that austerity means in effect a savings on the public side … |
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Post #Ajg5r0x2cxAnRq2lPc by [email protected] |
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@Patricia my understanding is that this is exactly what has happened when count… |
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Post #Ajg6CvVjXFp6wgie1Y by [email protected] |
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100/ but hold up… I just argued that the size of the money supply was not fix… |
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Post #Ajg6o8Xy1xOC5gVVIW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Thanks! A very fascinating subject. Perhaps economics is like cults b… |
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Post #Ajg7IlpgX0ukcYOy3s by [email protected] |
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@hallvors looking at the history of all sorts of sciences I think as humans we … |
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Post #Ajg7j7KfDczipWSGZ6 by [email protected] |
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101/ I’m sorry, but I have a lifetime of indoctrination to overcome here, and… |
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Post #Ajg84YszyB7yMrjx5s by [email protected] |
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@Patricia A central bank’s challenge might be managing the _perception of_ it… |
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Post #Ajg8OaWbaPBpF4obce by [email protected] |
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@hallvors but if this model is right austerity should hit private sector? But p… |
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Post #Ajg8h7RLwkhiXWC8SO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I never finished this book, got about half way through before I got t… |
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Post #Ajg8h7XNaLWaqD0wqm by [email protected] |
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@gundersen actually, based on the paper a few dozen posts up the relationship b… |
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Post #Ajg8juDVZDQIOg31Oa by [email protected] |
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@gundersen this is super interesting imohttps://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/11… |
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Post #Ajg8uN7Eyb2AvB6gEK by [email protected] |
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@gundersen this would mean that the whole narrative is bogus. I’m still strug… |
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Post #Ajg9SivAPYz8OXq784 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia From my understanding that's the standard view in Economics (e.g.… |
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Post #Ajg9Sj0U5nEqf2KMPw by [email protected] |
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@trost I don’t think it is the “mainstream” view, which seems quite neoca… |
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Post #AjgAFbjbv1hyIQkBQO by [email protected] |
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102/ Ooh a rant against MMT by a Keynesian economist 🤓https://www.nytimes.co… |
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Post #AjgBQc0nKQiwINaoZk by [email protected] |
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103/ seems to me from reading this and some of the references that the disagree… |
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Post #AjgBbBqWx4IUKVpseW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think it is the mainstream view in so far as it is the standard tex… |
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Post #AjgBbBwYaf7MdCeh2u by [email protected] |
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@trost yet politicians seem to reach for austerity a lot, both the EU as a whol… |
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Post #AjgBmrcNz9Af4Imo7c by [email protected] |
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@trost also it seems he is Keynesian, which seems to have dominated before Frie… |
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Post #AjgBq5Rf27QcoxJ4Ai by [email protected] |
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@trost need to read more about Keynesian economics |
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Post #AjgBwIw7mlYaOvWKbg by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Yeah austerity has damaged the poorest EU economies really bad (Spain… |
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Post #AjgBwJLeFryPg5SiOG by [email protected] |
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When the debt becomes untenable and we have a 2008 crash, governments rescue th… |
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Post #AjgCn3e9MbkYKPGfDc by [email protected] |
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104/ Also why reach immediately for interest rates? Is it because tax hikes are… |
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Post #AjgCr1ONgfIyUjmXnE by [email protected] |
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@Patricia as someone who majored in applied economics, but hasn't really be… |
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Post #AjgDCjVKsGdbO5O6VM by [email protected] |
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@flaki that makes sense to me, and also I think we overestimate how elastic the… |
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Post #AjgDTrxOhW6eWegVge by [email protected] |
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@Patricia my favorite part of my economics university education was 3 years int… |
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Post #AjgDTs3mJnD6qRfbdI by [email protected] |
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@flaki yeah, we automated that 😭🙈 |
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Post #AjgDdMDhYMWkzUppjc by [email protected] |
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@Patricia https://piaille.fr/@colin_mcmillen/112724191768173376 |
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Post #AjgDdMJNDH43H5UMZk by [email protected] |
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@flaki @colin_mcmillen truth |
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Post #AjgERGcUeGl86MEJvs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia this was the prediction, yes. And I think the canonical recent exampl… |
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Post #AjgETd0eNKpi7Yefr6 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia bonds are usually fixed rate at time of creation.Hence why raising in… |
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Post #AjgF5CQNfMGYfnbbo8 by [email protected] |
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105/ she is describing a model for interest rate that I think she is going to a… |
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Post #AjgFHJtPj0ilJJxtpI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia it depends!Mostly because interest rates are seen as a financial solu… |
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Post #AjgFHJz5NvG3aucQfQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia for a fascinating analysis of flow of money over time in some specifi… |
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Post #AjgFHK4P49VlrP6fxI by [email protected] |
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@Di4na I’ll take a look 👍 |
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Post #AjgFSarSybUr7hQiKu by [email protected] |
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@Patricia that is because the banks actually loan money from the central bank t… |
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Post #AjgFSax8dW29PI5FB2 by [email protected] |
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@Di4na these economic models are driving me up the wall |
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Post #AjgHGEMczllBmYEpHc by [email protected] |
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106/ Halfway through this but tbh this is a much more convincing argument for t… |
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Post #AjgHYSrto6CTylYkuO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The currently standard approach is that government determines whether… |
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Post #AjgHYSydP3aWJei8PI by [email protected] |
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@Zamfr that seems silly to me. Because to me it will actually matter politicall… |
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Post #AjgHd0y0yGeStOacam by [email protected] |
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@igimenezblb @Patricia Not only that, but the little public spending that is al… |
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Post #AjgHd142brTLC5PQzA by [email protected] |
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@per_sonne @igimenezblb 😞 |
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Post #AjgHj7R9pQZ2hF8EUq by [email protected] |
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@Patricia but, thinking more, while austerity was correctly predicted to be a f… |
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Post #AjgIOdm4VIierUiHSK by [email protected] |
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107/ I wonder if the distribution he is presenting is the same in other countri… |
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Post #AjgISrQrfLQoNao2m8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Not sure what you meant by “hit”, but I will just keep following … |
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Post #AjgJ1zuG9R4enTJGyW by [email protected] |
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@hallvors I think I was missing a few words 😅 my question was more that aust… |
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Post #AjgJA64Z6pb6EnzajY by [email protected] |
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@hallvors dyslexia means my brain will gladly add and subtract words and tell m… |
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Post #AjgKi8kFmOhsKHHxKq by [email protected] |
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108/ omg these numbers are mind blowing. Boomers are absolutely killing it. And… |
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Post #AjgLJyVUIEqbZqQI1g by [email protected] |
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109/ Related/unrelated : Piketty pisses me off even more now. Because instead o… |
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Post #AjgLb6gX8khlrdl6ga by [email protected] |
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@Patricia that is a really distinctive drop at 75-79. What is the cause of that… |
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Post #AjgLb6mYmLWeAKZv4y by [email protected] |
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@Patricia those would be people born just after the depression and hitting adul… |
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Post #AjgLb6sERG3wRvERv6 by [email protected] |
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@http_error_418 I don’t know, might be related to the boomer period which had… |
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Post #AjgM7ACpaKBG3D9SOO by [email protected] |
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110/ if y’all are new here, you can experience my spiraling rage at Piketty�… |
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Post #AjgNht8u5Z1vnZOFZw by [email protected] |
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111/ oh my, I had forgotten how complete the Piketty-roasting Past Patricia di… |
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Post #AjgOdIRkgJnomea3ZQ by [email protected] |
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@Patricia oh also, side note, but I also always recommend to consider any US po… |
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Post #AjgOdIY8IauH6RZ9W4 by [email protected] |
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@Di4na ah yes, the famously tolerant and inclusive group of white people over 5… |
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Post #AjgOk424fgos6dnTrE by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Zamfr yes, and that was the point of separating central banks from p… |
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Post #AjgOk486JHdkPKcIFc by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Zamfr a lot of the West has forgotten what it is to suddenly need a … |
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Post #AjgOk4DPzVtSfp6XXU by [email protected] |
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@Di4na @Zamfr I need to read more about inflation because I am starting to wond… |
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Post #AjgP5ngk7QiLmqBTl2 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Zamfr I mean some are yeah. If you want a relevant current one, the … |
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Post #AjgP5nmPmLFe4Qq0bA by [email protected] |
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@Di4na @Zamfr oh I didn’t mean historically true, I mean if the causal relati… |
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Post #AjgTu3QUHPKmtOnbkm by [email protected] |
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112/ Getting towards the end of chapter 4 (which I skipped earlier) and she’s… |
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Post #AjgXDngqnNobk4YnEe by [email protected] |
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113/ This speech is very interesting and recent. Only a couple of weeks old. An… |
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Post #AjgXUn9I3rEqzCxsG0 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Absolutely. Most of Greece's creditors were German banks, and in … |
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Post #AjgXWtSxXqDR9rAPxo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Germany absolutely has, yes. And it used that to “bail out” Greec… |
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Post #AjglJ1oF7ulkL2PAH2 by [email protected] |
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114/ And here from the Congressional Research Service Deficit Financing, the De… |
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Post #AjglsVY0YKz4hljGPA by [email protected] |
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115/ I have read a lot from the aftermath of the financial crisis. And a lot of… |
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Post #Ajgn0XfwcnGzZkpub2 by [email protected] |
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116/ But one thing I haven’t read much about is this inflation they’re curr… |
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Post #AjgnV019oW3eAHHVmS by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Reading much of this thread, I finally remembered that I read "H… |
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Post #AjgnV06pTQawRrw2ca by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Also, on the topic the financial crisis (I guess you may very well kn… |
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Post #AjgnV0Cr71PokYkr0y by [email protected] |
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@larsivi it’s funny because my family and I did a road trip the summer of 200… |
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Post #AjgnXegHbEOsrJmfeS by [email protected] |
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@larsivi I never did read the Black Swan. I always thought it was a business bo… |
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Post #AjgoT7C0GaFfnC1Ici by [email protected] |
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117/ For real, how does this make any sense? Companies costs are increasing bec… |
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Post #AjgpDFSXrYqUkhktTU by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I had it recommended to me by someone, and I'm pretty sure that p… |
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Post #AjgpDFXVZ6od064rD6 by [email protected] |
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@larsivi as far as I understand it isn’t very technical, it was a New York Ti… |
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Post #AjgpNzWpQxzuWqsicC by [email protected] |
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@larsivi but I guess it’s one of those books I have to read because I’ll kn… |
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Post #AjguXeuVRi2ZFXNyaW by [email protected] |
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@PatriciaI am no economist, but I think one idea is that higher interest rates … |
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Post #AjguXf0X5IrRYECmyu by [email protected] |
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@audunska it’s an experiment, but it’s not working, all countries are raisi… |
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Post #AjgwKbkm4WdZbOjpxo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia yes, but in addition to the narrative about the overheated economy, t… |
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Post #AjgwKbqRjRArszOMnw by [email protected] |
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@audunska and they can get the same interest rate in pretty much any country ri… |
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Post #AjgwkZMJb5hphlg2Ma by [email protected] |
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@Patricia one could argue that if the interest rate was significantly lower tha… |
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Post #AjgwkZRzG0F7zMKZCi by [email protected] |
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@audunska why would you take a 20% currency hit for a 2% interest rate increase… |
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Post #Ajgy7CHRfWUCk6kjjs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia One story I find convincing: Trigger was a supply chain shock because… |
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Post #Ajgy7CNTJ7J52nZY8G by [email protected] |
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@Patricia This is the 2nd one I believe: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/2… |
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Post #Ajgy7CT8y1qNKOE4yO by [email protected] |
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@trost thanks! |
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Post #AjgyjZQE4q4PWG9qDI by [email protected] |
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@trost “We should recognize the recourse to higher interest rates for what it… |
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Post #AjgzQqOCrte8awqc3k by [email protected] |
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118/ This, however, makes more sense to me.https://youtu.be/fjoDjv1R3to?si=0jJN… |
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Post #Ajh0HZ0qCoL4383bzU by [email protected] |
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119/ Ok, I’m not alone with this feeling. One could’ve taxed corporations t… |
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Post #Ajh0fdgEVFy7TYtjeK by [email protected] |
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@dekk I am very ready to blame this on economics being a pseudoscience |
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Post #Ajh0iM6yHPBBr8hSeO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia You're very welcome and thank you too for all the content!Funnily… |
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Post #Ajh0iMCzv0049pWH2m by [email protected] |
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@trost oh dear, I apologize |
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Post #Ajh28VXVwscQa29KFs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia actually... The term of "inflation" itself is... Problemati… |
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Post #Ajh28VdBbn9ircnr60 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia and once again... What is corporate profit ? Who get the money ? |
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Post #Ajh28ViVI1PR87I6Ns by [email protected] |
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@Di4na unsurprisingly I haven’t seen a single number from any economist yet, … |
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Post #Ajh2rvZK1HHaL6eX20 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia ikr. You get these labels and then poof. No need to look into the box. |
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Post #Ajh2rvfLes6SdnTLQO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia for a look into the complexity of inflation, this is a good start.Onc… |
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Post #Ajh2rvlNISvKwUI9om by [email protected] |
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@Patricia my personal take at inflation is simpler.People are retiring, which i… |
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Post #Ajh2rvqgyhB3CymP6e by [email protected] |
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@Di4na that’s pretty much a pet theory too 🤣 |
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Post #Ajh2usiB6C6OLZCgk4 by [email protected] |
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@Di4na hit wrong emoji 😂 |
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Post #Ajh9LtU2w5HMHjrDqi by [email protected] |
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@Patricia i woke to the knowledge that people differ in their intensity of empa… |
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Post #AjhA44lSM5fg0u4Ikq by [email protected] |
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@Patricia > having more of something would make it less valuablefalse myth i… |
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Post #AjhAD89d7ZLP8Kh1ou by [email protected] |
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@Patricia eluded != alludedis it good that i mention this distinction for us? |
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Post #AjhAbBLYu3oZz6k6vA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia > Am I even making sense anymore ?you’ve not nailed down enough … |
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Post #AjhJAkL3aysqHKyZDE by [email protected] |
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@pelavarre I think the words mentioned in the 4th stage of genocide “Dehumani… |
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Post #AjhL2Uq1XfVXnQecl6 by [email protected] |
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@dekk or might even make it worse |
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Post #AjhL69WMjxf8qCCd8K by [email protected] |
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@pelavarre you get a pass 💜 |
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Post #AjhLEE2vncnrBzHhJI by [email protected] |
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@pelavarre to feel like I might be close to something though… in my head… b… |
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Post #AjhQlLp0PYIodONyAy by [email protected] |
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@Patricia i feel like it's worth a loti didn't dream up your analogies … |
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Post #AjhRSDCcKgvsM2rqMa by [email protected] |
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@pelavarre I’m glad |
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Post #Ajha1VzTGqNmOR3yjI by [email protected] |
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120/ Chapter 7. “The Deficits That Matter” Is pretty damning tbh, it seems … |
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Post #AjjIxT9UZWH5Wk9grg by [email protected] |
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121/ Finished chapter 7 and 8 and it is pretty clear to me that this is mainly … |
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Post #AjjJEaodKebyDaZ1nM by [email protected] |
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122/ and tbh I think such a move would be positive thing not only for the US po… |
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Post #AjlLqGVJt1tyS4XcoK by [email protected] |
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123/ I have been trying to find someone saying what is causing this inflation. … |
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Post #AjlM591nxritbopaS0 by [email protected] |
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124/ Their whole model is based on the assumption that when prices go up it is … |
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Post #AjlMO3xR2aChNwo9zc by [email protected] |
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@aagot I don’t want to think about it. |
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Post #AjlORUUZ2ikISP4AQS by [email protected] |
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@pilum for sure, but that isn’t fixed by interest rates either 😂 |
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Post #AjlOghguFdvrjl5q5I by [email protected] |
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@alienghic and turning up interest rates won’t help with that either 😭 |
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Post #AjldS841PjqQV2Php2 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia It's important to check if increased prices are all due to increa… |
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Post #AjldS8AP20wsopOnlg by [email protected] |
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@igimenezblb unfortunately raising interest rates doesn’t help with that eith… |
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Post #AjmmQDfShYka2v3AVU by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Maybe it's what you're alluding to, but the big case of infla… |
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Post #AjmmSEdg3sazdaB0a0 by [email protected] |
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@sgf oh my |
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Post #AjmmU7lWaVOMtnkQYS by [email protected] |
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@sgf and yes, that would be very interesting to read more about |
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Post #AjpmVYBqPViMcJcPSK by [email protected] |
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125/ Ok, this is fascinating. Norway has one of the largest sovereign wealth fu… |
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Post #AjpoUM3GFsxEaaA4AK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia That's fairly close to my understanding. There's more about … |
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Post #AjqlF5CSWOprHCRwhc by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Makes it all the more stupidly funny that Germans think that governme… |
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Post #AjqlF5I8BJN9Yn6TXk by [email protected] |
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@alper the problem there might be the euro. If the European Central Bank doesn�… |
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Post #AjqpqF1nLNS4HxR4gC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia during the mining boom, when Australia was running consistent surplus… |
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Post #Ajt2VgB0tjNw7zC1pI by [email protected] |
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126/ Jon Stewart on MMT with Stephanie Kelton https://youtu.be/0G6obeUKWmw?si=-… |
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Post #AjtCzlWYa08wwSFqds by [email protected] |
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127/ so back to my radiator system mental model. Question that seems partially … |
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Post #AjtDoKohdWQ8sZr6fo by [email protected] |
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128/ I think maybe I should read the book Money by Jacob Goldstein again, becau… |
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Post #AjtEGNEKG1bcTLD6uG by [email protected] |
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@Patricia i just keep being reminded of this segment from the Hitchhiker's … |
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Post #AjtEGNJzuw8ukvrdkO by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag “Spending a year dead for tax reasons” 🤣 |
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Post #AjtEU5xlFl0MyP0Ojg by [email protected] |
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@Patricia some amount of inflation, i understand, is actually good, because it … |
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Post #AjtEU63QufXfFzevZo by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag but is the goal “to spend”? I mean it is in “mainstream econo… |
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Post #AjtEZAj6y9SDCBZe8O by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think inflation is inevitable only when your money system allows us… |
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Post #AjtEZAomd3zVTmEAyW by [email protected] |
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@molenaar can you elaborate on why not? |
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Post #AjtEb12tvv1LkZi3o8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia that's also how i explain my sabbatical, if asked |
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Post #AjtEb19HYC7o4Mh9km by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag fair |
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Post #AjtJh3eHfTKrKbtaPA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia yeah it kind of is. but then you will read someone saying oh well we … |
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Post #AjtJh3kfHkRJeOsgLo by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag it’s funny because people have never gotten our business, we have… |
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Post #AjtJtUpGRxEX5vxk3s by [email protected] |
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@Patricia isn't it more that inflation is useful and a reason to not have a… |
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Post #AjtJtUua8BUFMQRzLk by [email protected] |
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@danlyke that feels like the people who gamble with a system: “if I just doub… |
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Post #AjtWktGxUGa3iF8vwW by [email protected] |
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129/ Ok, I had an epiphany. And it’s about all the money that goes to the ric… |
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Post #AjtXupHBIgoSATY5Ue by [email protected] |
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@Patricia well money that went to banks to bail them out went into their reserv… |
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Post #AjtXupNCwHdKTAMtt2 by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag but money is money and if the Fed is taking care of solidity that m… |
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Post #Aju0vlm6hV6MGlofUu by [email protected] |
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@Patricia banks don't "use" money, except as equity. when they wa… |
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Post #Aju0vls8L5vEZSdTtI by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag they have to have a certain amount don’t they? I seem to remember… |
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Post #Aju15E2KzeH8Wnuu9Y by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Yep, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Another book that pr… |
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Post #Aju15E8MdF60pUjiXw by [email protected] |
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@bitbear lol, it’s on my list |
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Post #Aju2HVOCP0yNm8Yt3w by [email protected] |
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130/ Which reminds me of a story a guy told me. So his building only had one el… |
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Post #Aju2n7UKnkTiukVSk4 by [email protected] |
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131/ this theory should be testable, basically go over the cases where they tri… |
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Post #Ajup4g3mJV6OrKWTj6 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia When you have read it, I think we need to sit down and talk economics… |
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Post #Ajup4g9RyPdh8vB0ZE by [email protected] |
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@bitbear 👍😂 |
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Post #AjvFocGhLAe1EF8EyG by [email protected] |
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132/ A lot of what he presents as data supports my theory. Increased money supp… |
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Post #AjvGyS6m4PCAZGkCsC by [email protected] |
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@Patricia You are getting there. I would recommend looking at the ratio of publ… |
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Post #AjvGySCRjJjSqrOjiK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia My usual short quip to remind that to people is, "Money has to g… |
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Post #AjvGySHlPXzB7Lsz0C by [email protected] |
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@Di4na I was discussing this with someone and they got frustrated with me sayin… |
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Post #AjvHCAhLb5VOcqOPtA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The problematic part of linking "assets going up" with infl… |
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Post #AjvHCAn1G02guR2wjI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia That is why raising interest rates is supposed to help with inflation… |
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Post #AjvHCAt2tarZD7rl7g by [email protected] |
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@Di4na tbh that leads me to think that we need a different lower interest rate … |
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Post #AjvHHwmMGGENC3UTOy by [email protected] |
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@Patricia But yes, basically the rise in real estate value in the past few deca… |
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Post #AjvHHws1vAlfTe90F6 by [email protected] |
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@Di4na he also said that 20% of boomers own a rental property. |
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Post #AjvHTMwnJBGBXRonxo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia yep, and the retirement funds. Index funds and other stuff like Black… |
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Post #AjvHTN2Sy5nTp2TKnw by [email protected] |
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@Di4na I put them also in the building next door. Everyone who has enough money… |
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Post #AjvHXbq9sXDot1jidM by [email protected] |
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@Patricia well... that is one way to do it, and there are multiple government s… |
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Post #AjvHXbvpXRl7AcOFTU by [email protected] |
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@Di4na I don’t know what Georgism is |
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Post #AjvHmZHreZBvJOpR1E by [email protected] |
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@Patricia right, but that is everyone that got a job all their life and put mon… |
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Post #AjvHmZNXJTjDazTxrM by [email protected] |
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@Di4na I wonder if farmland has the same value increase as regular real estate.… |
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Post #AjvHu2eYrxSAPs0bB2 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia a political and economical movement, mostly from the past but that st… |
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Post #AjvHu2kaVYH2iYpPZQ by [email protected] |
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@Di4na but all land isn’t equal. Both with regards to what you are allowed to… |
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Post #AjvICGyqL96S40Bkfo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia weeeeelllll it is complicated, but it is *really* high value, because… |
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Post #AjvICH4A1NMAKUfzxg by [email protected] |
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@Di4na so is a rental property for I would think a lot lower cost. But I assume… |
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Post #AjvIGGTY9tQdelSGKO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Yes and no. the idea of Georgism is that this is why there is a "… |
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Post #AjvIGGZZnUFVxSH4im by [email protected] |
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@Di4na isn’t this similar to property tax? |
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Post #AjvMp7jB4h6kTedrvs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia property tax usually take into account the value of the buildings on … |
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Post #AjvMp7pCiHvcmLSgKG by [email protected] |
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@Di4na like all other economic theories that seems also very simplistic |
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Post #Ajw8JjtuPNDLOzlJAm by [email protected] |
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133/ Lol, I’m still stuck on inflation. Remember way in the beginning of this… |
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Post #Ajw8gfmHu42tH98IiW by [email protected] |
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134/ Maybe some went up because their costs were up when rebooting their suppl… |
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Post #Ajw8wJsX5lOjzPVz7Y by [email protected] |
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@Patricia you would not believe (well I guess you would now) how important for … |
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Post #Ajw8wJyCkfw2H0AVxg by [email protected] |
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@cam lol, but that’s the whole point of the “project” |
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Post #Ajw9KTDu04yzvC1glU by [email protected] |
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135/ You know, one of the upsides of having more diversity in your field is new… |
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Post #Ajx2tHS7Faf91tHnyi by [email protected] |
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@Jestbill it feels like they haven’t managed to do much except bicker for dec… |
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Post #Ajx307VIdb8uCY2Ko4 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia and then you try to fix it with unproven home remedies. Sometimes it … |
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Post #Ajx307bKHBxmVEr9CS by [email protected] |
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@aidanharding 💯 |
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Post #Ajx3G7uQtkfy5lQPho by [email protected] |
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@molenaar thanks! |
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Post #AjxtrK4Rq8p88pAQsa by [email protected] |
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@Patricia i think you are referring to "Fractional Reserve Banking" w… |
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Post #AjxtrKATTje0RVzFGy by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag it’s been years since I read about banks 😅 maybe I should again |
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Post #AjzBH8dSs4UUaFOxOK by [email protected] |
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136/ I give up. Norwegian inflation went down more than projected, so now Norwe… |
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Post #AjzCFbwv0odssEKvho by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think at this point they’re desperately playing with the paramete… |
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Post #AjzPwZXh8Rr7GVM168 by [email protected] |
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@tofagerl they have simplified reality to a handful of variables in a high scho… |
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Post #AjzQ42IScrmCTKmt8K by [email protected] |
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@aagot yes |
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Post #AjzQBcxUiTriChbILQ by [email protected] |
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@aagot |
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Post #AjzQN8zdx7pYk865p2 by [email protected] |
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@aagot I feel like I’m expected to just think this is fine |
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Post #AjzQnJ6SzD3JczlReC by [email protected] |
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@adriano @aagot |
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Post #AjzYvMNnSgI4EMDorg by [email protected] |
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137/ This is a joke. They’re just doing the economics equivalent of techno-ba… |
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Post #AjzZHLV1QWwNrT5KrI by [email protected] |
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138/ Why is it my problem that they created a completely unsuited academic disc… |
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Post #Ak3TTvpaLlw0vNA3zk by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think you're essentially correct. (And, parenthetically, this p… |
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Post #Ak3TTvvbzMktE3ysO8 by [email protected] |
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@cstross oh wow, that takes exchange risk to a whole new level 😅 |
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Post #Ak3Th1w2xxZzcYQgng by [email protected] |
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@Patricia have you seen Gary Stephenson's YouTube videos? Ex-City trader an… |
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Post #Ak3Th22mYuy1xRa4Ia by [email protected] |
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@Patricia he goes on to make a link between what you are describing as the two … |
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Post #Ak3Th28SDpVKF2Eb8i by [email protected] |
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@Mschatelaine this sounds interesting, do you have a video you’d recommend as… |
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Post #Ak3TzjatNluSErSAsK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think there's something to this! But I'm in no way an econo… |
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Post #Ak3TzjgZ2gRkWS6hiS by [email protected] |
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@fishidwardrobe they’ve done a ton of studies that show the same thing: if yo… |
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Post #Ak3X6z9CFnFaMkeFE0 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think you just re-invented Quantitative Easing from first principle… |
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Post #Ak3X6zEruhmseLIm48 by [email protected] |
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@schmerg I really need to read up on QE |
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Post #Ak3YIWw54MEOIZa9rs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Thanks for the inspiring thread.I got stuck on inflation too a while … |
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Post #Ak3YIX2SgdKqcMZFoW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia A similar contradiction holds with green transformation: the current … |
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Post #Ak3YIX7mMraYsr3V6O by [email protected] |
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@kiliange the problem is that without wage increases people are effectively get… |
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Post #Ak3hSVK4ouy5mNdYCO by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I generally agree but would argue that inflation with constant wages … |
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Post #Ak3hSVQ6SVmy54SMam by [email protected] |
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@kiliange inflation is by definition a broad, cross product/service, price incr… |
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Post #Ak4Pg0zulGPtlTSW4u by [email protected] |
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@Patricia try this one - Why the Rich Get Richer: https://youtu.be/rMkWPXVUteY?… |
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Post #Ak4Pg15aQAxC3472v2 by [email protected] |
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@Mschatelaine thanks! 🙏 |
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Post #Ak4XQbjBEOt2gHnOM4 by [email protected] |
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@Mschatelaine @Patricia 💯pairs well with this: https://newrepublic.com/artic… |
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Post #Ak4XQboqtJQKxsRvCC by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine I feel like both of these are a bit shallow tbh. Giv… |
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Post #Ak4ZYRhMbUHVnhoMMK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine sorry; i'm not sure i understand your question: whe… |
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Post #Ak4ZYRn2GOoo5IStCS by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine that isn’t a mechanism, rather: what mechanism in … |
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Post #Ak4cchg9QkHwNrxxAG by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine after i posted above, i realized that there's other… |
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Post #Ak4cchlp5epEfScU0O by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine and the unusually-high post-war tax on the rich wasn… |
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Post #Ak4cchrqjFe6y9RIOm by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine but back to your question: i thought wealth accumulatio… |
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Post #Ak4cchxWOABPFk5pEu by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine my point is that, at least to me, that doesn’t exp… |
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Post #Ak4cokrJQu4Rinvuls by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine this post https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/11278… |
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Post #Ak4eNao2tsvgdKa5FA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine i mean... money is kind of imaginary to begin with, isn… |
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Post #Ak4eNauQWA28x7ZBBo by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine so a large amount of "wealth" (as in, say, a … |
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Post #Ak4eNb0o8R8bGuYH8S by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine now you’re getting abstract and philosophical and … |
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Post #Ak4eNbB5WDMRmnMU9w by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine sorry for taking this conversation to "what-is-mon… |
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Post #Ak4eXwYesm5OzWJrOK by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine that part is imo beside the point. You can buy a hou… |
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Post #Ak4fSMfgyqAACIVs00 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine but the rules for "buying" a house are 100% d… |
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Post #Ak4fSMm4b7GcW5Uxwe by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine like, the reality comes more directly from human behavi… |
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Post #Ak4fSMs6Ei5UomJmL2 by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine we’re not having the same conversation and I’m b… |
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Post #Ak4hneyGL1PgwSTtZI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @Mschatelaine i respect this! and i hereby discontinue |
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Post #Ak4hnf4HycEZF9Ihxg by [email protected] |
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@JamesWidman @Mschatelaine 💜💜💜 |
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Post #AkEJKjGMqYImXJDkZc by [email protected] |
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139/ Ref post 129: I’m watching the documentary “97% owned” about the Bri… |
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Post #AkEOdeYZ4L1PDDZjhA by [email protected] |
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140/ Something I didn’t know: the author of The Deficit Myth, Stephanie Kelto… |
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Post #AkIOxiJrZ7jVJ46WMy by [email protected] |
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141/ Picking up the inflation thread for the current justification for interest… |
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Post #AkIvnZdKInndxUyrLs by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Interestingly, in that sense it looks like the ultraLOW-interest rate… |
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Post #AkIvnZjhv4u6HHxxIW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia And we can add the quite lucrative creation of all kinds of cryptocur… |
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Post #AkIvnZpNZzROYscU8e by [email protected] |
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@pst if folks have a surplus of money they want to put it somewhere where it as… |
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Post #AkIyA7NthGCSundpku by [email protected] |
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142/ So I’ve been thinking, if it is the case that increases in the money sup… |
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Post #AkJz5rS3Ht1XSC4wTo by [email protected] |
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143/ This interview with Warren Mosler is interesting, because he’s saying a … |
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Post #AkJzla30Nx8fdfFy6a by [email protected] |
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@jautero unfortunately this does exactly the opposite thing, it creates instrum… |
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Post #AkJzun1JWS42TlrBFA by [email protected] |
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@Patricia One solution is a land value tax:* Most of the value of property is i… |
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Post #AkJzun7LA2sumSfzdY by [email protected] |
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@alper I am not interested in taxing people’s homes, people who live in their… |
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Post #AkK0N1eqh3VXz9oSpM by [email protected] |
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144/ If 1 is true and if more money to the rich/banks inflate real estate price… |
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Post #AkK0TN7pn5CuIrOf4K by [email protected] |
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@Patricia This proposes that the land gets taxed but the homes do not. If the p… |
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Post #AkK0TNDrQg1mbYDTSi by [email protected] |
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@alper Maybe this is a country thing, but owning the land under your house it e… |
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Post #AkK0tgsKz0W75OhKUa by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Isn't it Piketty who argued that the British insistence on paying… |
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Post #AkK12UIl6MTshAFcq8 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia (Or maybe it was post-World War II debt. I can't remember to be h… |
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Post #AkK1XdxHGBG5c13kaO by [email protected] |
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@_dm Iirc this was maybe twice for the UK? Where France instead used inflation … |
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Post #AkK1pVbz1GZywpcODw by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I know there are a lot of things attached to it but I don't belie… |
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Post #AkK1pVhegB7HEQGv44 by [email protected] |
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@alper for me this is too indirect and a bit beside the point. Who “owns” t… |
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Post #AkK1sdBRK8cPIggvmi by [email protected] |
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@thollief @alper huh, I wonder if that is a thing here |
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Post #AkK2HDwcIbtEGKU7u4 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Yeah. Also some current debates about this, e.g. https://adepteconomi… |
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Post #AkK2gjHsu5Iwi7aw3E by [email protected] |
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@_dm oooh this is interesting |
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Post #AkK30ldRssWpmfEh60 by [email protected] |
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145/ Oh this is interesting:“The European Central Bank (ECB) published a stud… |
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Post #AkK3J86t3uFwhVlGyW by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think the reasons for buying are also important though. Rich people… |
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Post #AkK49r2fFeGF73vYkC by [email protected] |
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146/ It seems to me that things created for rich people to save are the root of… |
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Post #AkK4F707LNvY3ZF82C by [email protected] |
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@Patricia I think that’s the model in for instance Tokyo where people can liv… |
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Post #AkK4F75n0ISqL9tesK by [email protected] |
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@alper that sounds like a problem to me |
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Post #AkK4LaI3MNXcdJicAC by [email protected] |
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@_dm @Patricia Ignore the crypto idiocy. There is definitely merit to it. |
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Post #AkK4LaNj1I4uuuN90K by [email protected] |
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@wackJackle @_dm yeah, as usual the argumentation is generally more interesting… |
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Post #AkK4zy7gAb4m8G7gdU by [email protected] |
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@igimenezblb @Patricia As a narrow nitpick, I do not think real estate reliably… |
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Post #AkK4zyE3msBES36ma8 by [email protected] |
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@igimenezblb @Patricia Sorry. That turned into more of an essay than I intended… |
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Post #AkK4zyJjRmiWjdlJQG by [email protected] |
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@_dm @igimenezblb oh I never meant to imply that this money inflates real estat… |
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Post #AkK80xqB0M1lPP6Q0O by [email protected] |
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147/ I increasingly feel a need to understand how loans from private banks work… |
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Post #AkK8zqXwjpU4S2bfBw by [email protected] |
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@Patricia they probably borrow from a central bank? |
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Post #AkK8zqdGQ3jmiX5uTo by [email protected] |
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@janl apparently it seems, at least from other countries, that they don’t. Th… |
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Post #AkK9M4vJxuxtPa8mwK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia ooooo_OOOOO |
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Post #AkK9M51LbVmliGxbKi by [email protected] |
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@janl it’s really interesting, the YouTube link is in this posthttps://social… |
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Post #AkK9XPRrzi7KFolh8S by [email protected] |
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@Patricia As far as I know no major country bans rehypothecation. Individual ba… |
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Post #AkK9XPYFbzDmZbkn56 by [email protected] |
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@Foritus do you have some talks, articles, books or something that goes into ho… |
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Post #AkKEIyDyuoOzXMCr8S by [email protected] |
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@janl @Patricia They do not print money or borrow from the central bank. When a… |
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Post #AkKEIyKMX5VRr9Bx56 by [email protected] |
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@baggetun @janl that’s why it was it quotation marks, it was in the meaning o… |
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Post #AkKEh1PuhIsAO8FwEi by [email protected] |
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@jautero if we imagine that all mortgages are from the government, no private s… |
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Post #AkKEh2EFg98euFo8hM by [email protected] |
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@Patricia That is the other difference from student loans. There is no aftermar… |
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Post #AkKKTPl7zqZrYT4dDE by [email protected] |
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148/ This is a quite good explanation of MMT by one of the people who developed… |
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Post #AkKKVtcFxaz8jY6ilU by [email protected] |
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@Patricia The norges bank has an explainer on their website. Its much the same … |
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Post #AkKKYHKImCYuqiqTKK by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @janl there's no reserve requirement in the UK, and hasn't be… |
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Post #AkKKYHjTGchA6mcZYe by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @janl in fact this has lately been making me wonder about the drive t… |
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Post #AkKKnhLQK9Uvt2irnk by [email protected] |
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@Patricia Sure you can consider it unfair. People in Amsterdam also consider th… |
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Post #AkKKnhRnwQbOCphxkO by [email protected] |
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@alper I am actually saying that the government should make sure everyone can b… |
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Post #AkKNONg6bdHtW1136u by [email protected] |
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@Zamfr @Patricia iirc the big thing that got the US banks into trouble in 2007 … |
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Post #AkKd2PExiQtpFwrabY by [email protected] |
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@mrsbeanbag @Zamfr @Patricia So the banks just stopped repossessing homes and t… |
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Post #AkKd2PKdNLR7XXW7Rg by [email protected] |
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@shafik @mrsbeanbag @Zamfr oh wow, I’d love to learn more about these |
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Post #AkKdjNGqujJVbGEiPI by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @mrsbeanbag @Zamfr the story is pretty well done, so listen to it whe… |
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Post #AkKdjNMAaxZDrkixhA by [email protected] |
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@shafik @mrsbeanbag @Zamfr I did, I just wanted to know more |
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Post #AkKhhhpzsLmUcm8QTI by [email protected] |
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@janl @Patricia It’s much worse than that. Fractional banking is essentially … |
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Post #AkKhhhx5RzS6ylS5WS by [email protected] |
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@hypostase @janl @Patricia It's more about a different focus. The emphasis … |
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Post #AkKhhi375aGzHSGtuq by [email protected] |
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@janl @Zamfr @Patricia I kinda get it. It’s just that after seeing 120% mortg… |
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Post #AkKhhi8mkUoHZ2vQky by [email protected] |
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@hypostase @janl @Patricia Oh, I won't pretend that I know if the current r… |
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Post #AkKhhiE6Qj3zpXPg2q by [email protected] |
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@Zamfr @hypostase @janl I really want to learn more about how this works in pra… |
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Post #AkKhhiJm5dbI784Csy by [email protected] |
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@Patricia @hypostase @janl The link I posted above talks about it in appendix 2… |
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Post #AkKhhiPnjEQAPot1HM by [email protected] |
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@Zamfr @hypostase @janl Thanks ! |
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Post #Ao3bgB2hwL3ayZjD04 by [email protected] |
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@Patricia so giving out a lot of mortgages is fine. As long as folks are actual… |
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Post #Ao3bgB9RXIRdJSsaUy by [email protected] |
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@shafik you’re assuming it’s regular people who were buying, but there is n… |
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Post #Ao3c0yY9aD70JNM1TM by [email protected] |
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@shafik what’s doing the inflation is the massive increase in the money suppl… |
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Post #Ao3cEDAoWZGZQjkTZo by [email protected] |
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@shafik so the economists are surprised. They were starting to wonder if there … |
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Post #Ao3cMXWGlJ1iqhkteq by [email protected] |
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@shafik what I was saying and what I’ve later seen others say (for example in… |
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Post #Ao3dKi1moyXQobBjdY by [email protected] |
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@shafik and the money probably went other places too where you “invest”, be… |
