Introduction
Introduction Statistics Contact Development Disclaimer Help
Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Love God Only
https://lovegodonly.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
Return to: Things of the Soul
*****************************************************
#Post#: 7946--------------------------------------------------
Conversation....
By: Jella Date: June 18, 2014, 6:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
A conversation with my own soul....but you can listen in.
Who is this Jesus? => Yes, Savior...but anything more? How about
the Living Word? Yes, so we can go to Him & His living example,
and then along with His Holy Spirit He can help us understand
the written word? Yes. How about our example? Yes, this
too...the One who in Whose steps we follow. So, He is a reliable
example of how a Christian is to behave in this world? Yes, we
can trust that He knew what He was doing...so if we want to know
how to be a 'good' Christian...examine Jesus's life.
So, even if something Christ said or did doesn't seem rational
to me...it still is to God? Yes, it is. This means that when
Christ tells us that the New Commandment of love fulfills all
the laws and everything the Prophets taught...it's absolutely
true? Yes. So, love is THAT important to God? Yup! Now, how
about, is He the One who paid for 100% of our salvation? Yes,
that too...as He met every single one of God's requirements on
our behalf. Every one? Yes, every single one.
How about the One who is and was the perfect representation of
God. Yes. In every way when we look at Jesus...in how He acted,
in how and when He spoke...He showed the exact love, nature and
character of God. So, if I am believing that God is a certain
way....but it does not line up with Christ's example...then I
need to believe Christ rather then my own viewpoint? Yes. You
do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9cq6SFHlkHc
#Post#: 7964--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Kerry Date: June 19, 2014, 8:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jella link=topic=790.msg7946#msg7946
date=1403133916]
A conversation with my own soul....but you can listen in.
Who is this Jesus? => Yes, Savior...but anything more? How about
the Living Word? Yes, so we can go to Him & His living example,
and then along with His Holy Spirit He can help us understand
the written word? Yes. How about our example? Yes, this
too...the One who in Whose steps we follow. So, He is a reliable
example of how a Christian is to behave in this world? Yes, we
can trust that He knew what He was doing...so if we want to know
how to be a 'good' Christian...examine Jesus's life. [/quote]
We aren't able to do that directly, are we?
[quote]So, even if something Christ said or did doesn't seem
rational to me...it still is to God? Yes, it is. This means that
when Christ tells us that the New Commandment of love fulfills
all the laws and everything the Prophets taught...it's
absolutely true? Yes. So, love is THAT important to God?
[/quote]
Reading that passage in the Bible carefully, I would put it
differently. I would say all the Law and the Prophets are about
love. The Jewish context comes into play since they divide
their sacred books into three categories: The Law, the Prophets
and the Scriptures (Writings). So how was it loving when there
was a flood that destroyed so many people? How was it loving to
destroy Sodom? Those are things in the Torah or Law.
Jesus was citing a previous Rabbi, by the way, Rabbi Hillel. He
was paraphrasing what Hillel said. From
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Quote/hillel.html
Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to
him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole
Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with
the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before
Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is
despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole
Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." -
Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a
That is the whole Torah (or Law) -- the rest is commentary.
Yes, I think it was loving to destroy Sodom and to have the
flood. If it's in the Law and the Prophets and from God, then
the message must somehow be about His Love.
#Post#: 7967--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Jella Date: June 19, 2014, 11:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=790.msg7964#msg7964
date=1403227390]
[quote author=Jella link=topic=790.msg7946#msg7946
date=1403133916]
A conversation with my own soul....but you can listen in.
Who is this Jesus? => Yes, Savior...but anything more? How about
the Living Word? Yes, so we can go to Him & His living example,
and then along with His Holy Spirit He can help us understand
the written word? Yes. How about our example? Yes, this
too...the One who in Whose steps we follow. So, He is a reliable
example of how a Christian is to behave in this world? Yes, we
can trust that He knew what He was doing...so if we want to know
how to be a 'good' Christian...examine Jesus's life. [/quote]
We aren't able to do that directly, are we?
[quote]So, even if something Christ said or did doesn't seem
rational to me...it still is to God? Yes, it is. This means that
when Christ tells us that the New Commandment of love fulfills
all the laws and everything the Prophets taught...it's
absolutely true? Yes. So, love is THAT important to God?
[/quote]
Reading that passage in the Bible carefully, I would put it
differently. I would say all the Law and the Prophets are about
love. The Jewish context comes into play since they divide
their sacred books into three categories: The Law, the Prophets
and the Scriptures (Writings). So how was it loving when there
was a flood that destroyed so many people? How was it loving to
destroy Sodom? Those are things in the Torah or Law.
Jesus was citing a previous Rabbi, by the way, Rabbi Hillel. He
was paraphrasing what Hillel said. From
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Quote/hillel.html
Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to
him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole
Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with
the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before
Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is
despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole
Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it." -
Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a
That is the whole Torah (or Law) -- the rest is commentary.
Yes, I think it was loving to destroy Sodom and to have the
flood. If it's in the Law and the Prophets and from God, then
the message must somehow be about His Love.
[/quote]
This could turn into quite a conversation...(taking in big
breath :) Please remember that I am using some human terms here.
~ I believe that the whole bible...N & O Testaments
combined...is a puzzle. Each piece is searched out and needed to
see the complete picture and make more sense of God's plan from
beginning to end. Therefore, this is why we spend time reading,
studying, learning...so as to uncover and digest this plan
little by little. Essentially, each piece in the OT explains &
points to a piece in the NT.
This being said, in my understanding and belief, the law...being
perfect as it was...(logically)could not be perfectly followed
by imperfect people...and therefore do the job of
redemption...which was the reason one had to bring sacrifices
for each time they failed to keep it...which means they had to
do this over and over and over again...which pointed to the need
for a 'one time' Savior...thus one of the reasons for the OT.
Another is, the OT brought to our attention real people that
lived under the law...and so as we study and learn about them,
we see how it took them a lot of time to make sure the law was
followed exactly. How the home had to be kept, food carefully
prepared, special religious celebrations prepared for, clothing
made with and without certain materials and etc.. The majority
of any given family's life was very busy doing these things.
That family was a slave to the law in more ways then
one...including the perpetual guilt...all pointing to the real
freedom Christ brought. Additionally, the law mainly told us
what 'not to do'...where as the "law of love" filled that need
and tells us what 'to do'.
=> So, in just these ways...even though there are many more ways
in which the OT points to the need for a New Covenant...God took
us through the many years and examples of the OT because He
wanted us to see what it really meant when scripture tells us
that our freedom from the law is true freedom. As the New
Covenant gives us the freedom...the time...to love as Christ
loved.
Freedom from 2 important things: inside from guilt...and outside
from the works of the law...both being things that took up most
of their thought life and time. God also wanted us to learn to
not use this new found freedom (of time, thought and freedom of
guilt) for self and sinful pleasures...but to use this freedom
to obey the New Commandment - which is to be in close
relationship with God (because Jesus did bridge the gap) and to
serve others...which essentially one could not do before.
Gal. 4: 21Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you
know what the law actually says? 22The Scriptures say that
Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his
freeborn wife. 23The son of the slave wife was born in a human
attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God�s promise. But the
son of the freeborn wife was born as God�s own fulfillment of
his promise.
24These two women serve as an illustration of God�s two
covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where
people received the law that enslaved them. 25And now Jerusalem
is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children
live in slavery to the law. 26But the other woman, Sarah,
represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and
she is our mother.
===>> The reason that love fulfills the whole law is?...well,
because it just does. If you are choosing to love someone...are
you going to kill them? If you are choosing to love someone are
you going to lust after them?...or covet what they have?...or
steal from them? ...or commit adultery against them?...or bear
false witness against them? ...or?...or? No, you wouldn't. In
fact, if you loved them you would NOT just do the don'ts (which
is just one side of it)...you would also do the do's...you would
have patience with them, and kindness, and etc. You would think
of what is best for them. (1 Cor. 13 & Gal. 5:22-23) Christ
showed us by example this kind of love. He also said and showed
us that love is not against the law and even goes way beyond it.
Gal. 5: 1, 13&14
1So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don�t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and
sisters. But don�t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful
nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love.
14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: �Love
your neighbor as yourself.�
I hope this was somewhat clear, and I know this barely answers
your reply....but hopefully I can do a better job next time...
Blessings!
#Post#: 7968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Jella Date: June 20, 2014, 4:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his
holy name. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his
benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all
thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who
crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who
satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is
renewed like the eagle's." Psalm 103:1-5
Genesis 49:6 is spoken by Jacob near the end of his life. He
says this about two of his sons. "Simeon and Levi are brethren;
instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. O my soul, may
I never join in their meetings; may I never be a party to their
plans. For in their anger they murdered men, and they crippled
oxen just for sport.
Talking to your own soul is basically just talking to yourself.
In my mind it is connecting my thoughts, feelings and
convictions over a matter.
#Post#: 7969--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Kerry Date: June 20, 2014, 6:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jella link=topic=790.msg7967#msg7967
date=1403239249]
=> So, in just these ways...even though there are many more ways
in which the OT points to the need for a New Covenant...God took
us through the many years and examples of the OT because He
wanted us to see what it really meant when scripture tells us
that our freedom from the law is true freedom. As the New
Covenant gives us the freedom...the time...to love as Christ
loved. [/quote]
Gentiles were not given the Law of Moses, never under it. So I
don't grasp what you're saying here.
[quote]Freedom from 2 important things: inside from guilt...and
outside from the works of the law...both being things that took
up most of their thought life and time. God also wanted us to
learn to not use this new found freedom (of time, thought and
freedom of guilt) for self and sinful pleasures...but to use
this freedom to obey the New Commandment - which is to be in
close relationship with God (because Jesus did bridge the gap)
and to serve others...which essentially one could not do before.
[/quote]
Have you thought about this? Can we suppose that God demanded
the impossible from Israel by giving them the Law of Moses? If
so, it would be joke -- a cruel joke. That cannot be. Why do
you say people could not keep the law?
[quote] ===>> The reason that love fulfills the whole law
is?...well, because it just does. If you are choosing to love
someone...are you going to kill them? [/quote]Love might require
you kill them, yes. The "letter of the law" says, "Thou shalt
not commit murder," but the Spirit of the Law might require you
kill them.
[quote]If you are choosing to love someone are you going to lust
after them?...or covet what they have?...or steal from them?
...or commit adultery against them?...or bear false witness
against them? ...or?...or? No, you wouldn't.[/quote]The Jews say
it's right to steal sometimes. I agree. And I would hope that
people would feel free to steal from me in certain situations.
Not going by the "letter of the law" but by the spirit.
In fact, if you loved them you would NOT just do the don'ts
(which is just one side of it)...you would also do the
do's...you would have patience with them, and kindness, and etc.
You would think of what is best for them. (1 Cor. 13 & Gal.
5:22-23) Christ showed us by example this kind of love. He also
said and showed us that love is not against the law and even
goes way beyond it.
[quote]Gal. 5: 1, 13&14
1So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don�t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and
sisters. But don�t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful
nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love.
14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: �Love
your neighbor as yourself.�
I hope this was somewhat clear, and I know this barely answers
your reply....but hopefully I can do a better job next time...
Blessings! [/quote]I say sometimes obeying the Law of Love
demands us to break the "letter of the law." Until we know the
difference however, it's best to obey the letter. It's like
telling a small child not to touch the drain cleaner. Drain
cleaner is useful if you know how to use it; but children need
rules. When they grow up, they what the drain cleaner is for.
They don't need that rule anymore.
Sometimes killing someone is the kindest thing to do. Rarely
but sometimes. If someone is about to do great harm to an
innocent person like a child, he could corrupt that child and
alter the life destiny so much, that child would be warped for
life. It would be better to kill that person before he could
commit such an act. Jesus said it.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones
which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone
were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the
depth of the sea.
If that person lives to commit more such grievous sins, he will
have more sins to answer for on Judgment Day. You'd be doing
him a favor by killing him so he would not face such harsh
judgment later.
#Post#: 7974--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Runner Date: June 20, 2014, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]quoting Kerry...Gentiles were not given the Law of Moses,
never under it. So I don't grasp what you're saying here.
[/quote]
Come on Kerry...we all know that the Gentiles were not 'given'
the law...but we also know that Isa 53 was not "given" to the
Gentiles either, or the beautiful Psalms, Proverbs or anything
else...but the Gentiles 'took it' to themselves as the Lord
speaks it and it is LIFE to them...trouble is, they presumed the
law also applied to them and took it too!...and Paul was sent to
bring them OUT..( along with the Jews who stayed under the law)
As we take any verse or any part of the OT as 'to us'.. I can
see why they easily fell under the mindset of the old law also.
[quote]Can we suppose that God demanded the impossible from
Israel by giving them the Law of Moses? [/quote]
Absolutely YES! That is what it was all about...mankind HAD to
see that he could not undo what Adam had done by TRYING to keep
the law...it cannot be done...if it could be done then there was
no need for Jesus to come, live, walk, bleed and die for
mankind.
Yet even now the average man still thinks that by "being good"
and working hard one can earn God's approval!! The only thing He
approves is the life and death of Christ...and we, are "in Him"
therefore His beloved and approved.
No other way.
#Post#: 7975--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Jella Date: June 20, 2014, 12:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=790.msg7969#msg7969
date=1403262203]
[quote author=Jella link=topic=790.msg7967#msg7967
date=1403239249]
=> So, in just these ways...even though there are many more ways
in which the OT points to the need for a New Covenant...God took
us through the many years and examples of the OT because He
wanted us to see what it really meant when scripture tells us
that our freedom from the law is true freedom. As the New
Covenant gives us the freedom...the time...to love as Christ
loved. [/quote]
Gentiles were not given the Law of Moses, never under it. So I
don't grasp what you're saying here.
[quote]Freedom from 2 important things: inside from guilt...and
outside from the works of the law...both being things that took
up most of their thought life and time. God also wanted us to
learn to not use this new found freedom (of time, thought and
freedom of guilt) for self and sinful pleasures...but to use
this freedom to obey the New Commandment - which is to be in
close relationship with God (because Jesus did bridge the gap)
and to serve others...which essentially one could not do before.
[/quote]
Have you thought about this? Can we suppose that God demanded
the impossible from Israel by giving them the Law of Moses? If
so, it would be joke -- a cruel joke. That cannot be. Why do
you say people could not keep the law?
[quote] ===>> The reason that love fulfills the whole law
is?...well, because it just does. If you are choosing to love
someone...are you going to kill them? [/quote]Love might require
you kill them, yes. The "letter of the law" says, "Thou shalt
not commit murder," but the Spirit of the Law might require you
kill them.
[quote]If you are choosing to love someone are you going to lust
after them?...or covet what they have?...or steal from them?
...or commit adultery against them?...or bear false witness
against them? ...or?...or? No, you wouldn't.[/quote]The Jews say
it's right to steal sometimes. I agree. And I would hope that
people would feel free to steal from me in certain situations.
Not going by the "letter of the law" but by the spirit.
In fact, if you loved them you would NOT just do the don'ts
(which is just one side of it)...you would also do the
do's...you would have patience with them, and kindness, and etc.
You would think of what is best for them. (1 Cor. 13 & Gal.
5:22-23) Christ showed us by example this kind of love. He also
said and showed us that love is not against the law and even
goes way beyond it.
[quote]Gal. 5: 1, 13&14
1So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and
sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful
nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love.
14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command:
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
I hope this was somewhat clear, and I know this barely answers
your reply....but hopefully I can do a better job next time...
Blessings! [/quote]I say sometimes obeying the Law of Love
demands us to break the "letter of the law." Until we know the
difference however, it's best to obey the letter. It's like
telling a small child not to touch the drain cleaner. Drain
cleaner is useful if you know how to use it; but children need
rules. When they grow up, they what the drain cleaner is for.
They don't need that rule anymore.
Sometimes killing someone is the kindest thing to do. Rarely
but sometimes. If someone is about to do great harm to an
innocent person like a child, he could corrupt that child and
alter the life destiny so much, that child would be warped for
life. It would be better to kill that person before he could
commit such an act. Jesus said it.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones
which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone
were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the
depth of the sea.
If that person lives to commit more such grievous sins, he will
have more sins to answer for on Judgment Day. You'd be doing
him a favor by killing him so he would not face such harsh
judgment later.
[/quote]
Some of these comments of yours come from your
feelings/bent....which are ok of course...but I'm not arguing
about what our feelings are about what God did or said...I am
answering you as straight from scripture as I can get. Would you
like me to site all the main scriptures concerning the law and
grace?
As far as love goes hating evil and defending others is an
ingredient of love.
1 Cor. 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it
does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others,
it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no
record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices
with the truth. 7 It always defends, always trusts, always
hopes, always perseveres.
Blessings!
#Post#: 7978--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Kerry Date: June 20, 2014, 4:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jella link=topic=790.msg7975#msg7975
date=1403284594]
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=790.msg7969#msg7969
date=1403262203]
[quote author=Jella link=topic=790.msg7967#msg7967
date=1403239249]
=> So, in just these ways...even though there are many more ways
in which the OT points to the need for a New Covenant...God took
us through the many years and examples of the OT because He
wanted us to see what it really meant when scripture tells us
that our freedom from the law is true freedom. As the New
Covenant gives us the freedom...the time...to love as Christ
loved. [/quote]
Gentiles were not given the Law of Moses, never under it. So I
don't grasp what you're saying here.
[quote]Freedom from 2 important things: inside from guilt...and
outside from the works of the law...both being things that took
up most of their thought life and time. God also wanted us to
learn to not use this new found freedom (of time, thought and
freedom of guilt) for self and sinful pleasures...but to use
this freedom to obey the New Commandment - which is to be in
close relationship with God (because Jesus did bridge the gap)
and to serve others...which essentially one could not do before.
[/quote]
Have you thought about this? Can we suppose that God demanded
the impossible from Israel by giving them the Law of Moses? If
so, it would be joke -- a cruel joke. That cannot be. Why do
you say people could not keep the law?
[quote] ===>> The reason that love fulfills the whole law
is?...well, because it just does. If you are choosing to love
someone...are you going to kill them? [/quote]Love might require
you kill them, yes. The "letter of the law" says, "Thou shalt
not commit murder," but the Spirit of the Law might require you
kill them.
[quote]If you are choosing to love someone are you going to lust
after them?...or covet what they have?...or steal from them?
...or commit adultery against them?...or bear false witness
against them? ...or?...or? No, you wouldn't.[/quote]The Jews say
it's right to steal sometimes. I agree. And I would hope that
people would feel free to steal from me in certain situations.
Not going by the "letter of the law" but by the spirit.
In fact, if you loved them you would NOT just do the don'ts
(which is just one side of it)...you would also do the
do's...you would have patience with them, and kindness, and etc.
You would think of what is best for them. (1 Cor. 13 & Gal.
5:22-23) Christ showed us by example this kind of love. He also
said and showed us that love is not against the law and even
goes way beyond it.
[quote]Gal. 5: 1, 13&14
1So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don�t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and
sisters. But don�t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful
nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love.
14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: �Love
your neighbor as yourself.�
I hope this was somewhat clear, and I know this barely answers
your reply....but hopefully I can do a better job next time...
Blessings! [/quote]I say sometimes obeying the Law of Love
demands us to break the "letter of the law." Until we know the
difference however, it's best to obey the letter. It's like
telling a small child not to touch the drain cleaner. Drain
cleaner is useful if you know how to use it; but children need
rules. When they grow up, they what the drain cleaner is for.
They don't need that rule anymore.
Sometimes killing someone is the kindest thing to do. Rarely
but sometimes. If someone is about to do great harm to an
innocent person like a child, he could corrupt that child and
alter the life destiny so much, that child would be warped for
life. It would be better to kill that person before he could
commit such an act. Jesus said it.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones
which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone
were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the
depth of the sea.
If that person lives to commit more such grievous sins, he will
have more sins to answer for on Judgment Day. You'd be doing
him a favor by killing him so he would not face such harsh
judgment later.
[/quote]
Some of these comments of yours come from your
feelings/bent....which are ok of course...but I'm not arguing
about what our feelings are about what God did or said...I am
answering you as straight from scripture as I can get. Would you
like me to site all the main scriptures concerning the law and
grace?
As far as love goes hating evil and defending others is an
ingredient of love.
1 Cor. 13: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it
does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others,
it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no
record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices
with the truth. 7 It always defends, always trusts, always
hopes, always perseveres.
Blessings!
[/quote]I think it's time for me to duck out of this part of the
conversation. You are not answering me but rather trying to
analyze me and my emotions. At the moment, I don't feel like
discussing myself since that's not the topic.
If you were to cite the Scriptures about the law and grace,
doubtlessly you'd be quoting Paul and not Jesus; and I don't
feel like getting into a discussion about Paul. I'd rather
discuss what Jesus said. I agree with what Peter said about
Paul -- he's very hard to understand.
#Post#: 7982--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Kerry Date: June 20, 2014, 5:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=790.msg7974#msg7974
date=1403282650]
[quote]quoting Kerry...Gentiles were not given the Law of Moses,
never under it. So I don't grasp what you're saying here.
[/quote]
Come on Kerry...we all know that the Gentiles were not 'given'
the law...but we also know that Isa 53 was not "given" to the
Gentiles either, or the beautiful Psalms, Proverbs or anything
else...but the Gentiles 'took it' to themselves as the Lord
speaks it and it is LIFE to them...trouble is, they presumed the
law also applied to them and took it too!...and Paul was sent to
bring them OUT..( along with the Jews who stayed under the law)
As we take any verse or any part of the OT as 'to us'.. I can
see why they easily fell under the mindset of the old law also.
[quote]Can we suppose that God demanded the impossible from
Israel by giving them the Law of Moses? [/quote]
Absolutely YES! That is what it was all about...mankind HAD to
see that he could not undo what Adam had done by TRYING to keep
the law...it cannot be done...if it could be done then there was
no need for Jesus to come, live, walk, bleed and die for
mankind.
Yet even now the average man still thinks that by "being good"
and working hard one can earn God's approval!! The only thing He
approves is the life and death of Christ...and we, are "in Him"
therefore His beloved and approved.
No other way.
[/quote]I'm saying the 613 commandments of the Law of Moses were
never anything Gentiles were expected to keep. Israel agreed
to obey them, and then they were bound by them. Indeed
uncircumcised Gentiles were forbidden to engage in the Passover.
A Jew once told me too that Gentiles were discouraged from
trying to observe the Sabbath too strictly. Jews today still
sometimes hire Gentiles to do little chores around the house for
them on the Sabbath; and it's not a sin because Gentiles are not
expected to keep the Sabbath.
The "law" that the Gentiles are expected to keep is the Covenant
of Noah. All the descendants of Noah are expected to observe
that, and it's not something they need to be taught. Orthodox
Judaism agrees with what the Apostles wrote about the Gentiles
and the Law of Moses.
If someone converts to Judaism, then he must be circumcised if
male, and then he is obliged to keep all the Law. The Jews
agree with Paul on that too.
The Law of Moses was given to Israel after they did not want to
hear the Voice of God. If they had been willing to hear, they
wouldn't have needed the written rules; but remember they said
they didn't want to hear. They wanted Moses to go talk with God
and then come back and tell them things. So that's what they
got.
They were then told to keep the Law of Moses so they would live.
If we say it was impossible for them to do it, we are saying
God did not offer them a way of escape and lacked mercy -- and
this verse would not be true.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day
against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing
and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed
may live:
When Cain was angry, he fell short -- being in danger of the
judgment. God warned him. Is that not the purpose of the Law,
to tell Israel, to remind them, of the inner weaknesses in which
they fell short and were in danger of being judged? Is that a
form of condemning? You might say, but it's meant to instruct
against actions which then are truly sinful. Cain was not
forced to kill Abel. He could have chosen otherwise.
#Post#: 7983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Conversation....
By: Runner Date: June 20, 2014, 9:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]quote Kerry...
They were then told to keep the Law of Moses so they would live.
If we say it was impossible for them to do it, we are saying
God did not offer them a way of escape and lacked mercy -- and
this verse would not be true. [/quote]
I can see we believe things differently.
So, if man could keep the law why did God require Jesus to come
and die for mankind to open the way back to Him? He came because
the blood of bulls , goats, and sheep could only
cover..temporary, but never remove.
I believe that God gave the the day of Atonement in the OT for
those who lived under the law. That was the way back then.
Mercy. It cleared the debt/sin for another year.
I believe David chose life, David saw beyond the law. His feet
were in the OT but his heart was in the New. He had a friend
relationship. He sinned, he repented, he was forgive...not
without consequence.
That just how I see it...
*****************************************************
Next Page
You are viewing proxied material from gopher.createaforum.com. The copyright of proxied material belongs to its original authors. Any comments or complaints in relation to proxied material should be directed to the original authors of the content concerned. Please see the disclaimer for more details.