Subj : Re: Echo Rules
To : Ward Dossche
From : Dan Clough
Date : Mon Sep 16 2024 09:07 am
-=> Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-
WD> Dan,
DC>WD> Do "what" about it?
DC> I thought that was obvious, but - stop that system from allowing a
DC> non-sysop to post in a sysop-only echo area. Yes, I know about the
DC> "fidoweb" and the inability to do a "feed cut" as in the old days, but
DC> there are other things. Somebody (not me) that he might listen to when
DC> asked about this. Somebody like *YOU*. Somebody who knows him, and is
DC> his ZC, and has the authority to 'officially' ask him to stop doing it.
WD> For ages I have been bombarded by messages predominantly from Z1-origin
WD> (yes, Janis, you too) that echomail was something entirely out of the
WD> scope of P4, that the *C-structure had nothing to do with it and should
WD> stay away from it.
WD> Efforts to get some kind of echomail-policy off the ground were also
WD> effeciently torpedoed to smithereens.
WD> And know you desire me to deal with an echomail-issue based on my
WD> P4-status? Really?
Let's look at this from a different angle. Is it really an
echomail-issue? Or is it a Sysop/NC/RC issue where a Sysop is allowing
access to an area designated for Sysops only, to a non-Sysop? Section
9.9 of P4 states that "echomail is simply a different flavor of netmail,
and is therefore covered by Policy." So maybe this is a case of a Sysop
having his system mis-configured *knowingly*, and allowing behavior that
annoys other FidoNet Sysops. See P4 section 1.2.1.1 and section 2.1.3.
Also please re-read section 1.3.5, with particular attention to the word
"persists".
WD> Let me tell you something, *Cs have no power, they can do nothing more
WD> than manage a nodelist segment hoping that what they get from below is
WD> decent and equally hoping one level up there's someone that knows how
WD> to handle that. These talents are becoming very rare in Fidonet these
WD> days.
I see your point, but a clear case of that being not always true is how
TWO ENTIRE REGIONS in Z1 were recently *removed* due to the incompetence of
their RCs. They were fired and their nodes re-assigned to another
Region.
WD> I do not intend to go policing echomail, it wouldn't work anyway. I
WD> learned that the hard way barely a few months into my first stint as a
WD> ZC and I dropped the idea altogether.
The real question here is whether what I'm talking about is an echomail
issue, or a policy/procedural issue. A Sysop is allowing unauthorized
access to a Sysop-only area.
WD> Also I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech, that doesn't mean
WD> insulting someone is OK. Bjorn is not a wanker, and neither are you. So
WD> pls cut the vocabulary.
I give as good as I get.
WD> The person "Lee Lofaso", whether real or fake, does not bother me, does
WD> not impress me, does not interest me, does not annoy me ... because I
WD> figured out in order to be annoyed, you need to want to be annoyed.
WD> There are a lot more important things to deal with than a self-declared
WD> ghost spreading AI-khrap.
Not everyone is annoyed by the same things.
WD> Really, you need to sit down and carefully consider what freedom of
WD> speech really is, because if someone cannot go beyond your self-imposed
WD> borders, then you are no advocate of it.
WD> There's no reason to deal with Bjorn, I'm certain he is a nice human
WD> being trying to deal with the kind of miseries of life that some here
WD> cannot even begin to grasp.
Maybe he is a nice human in Real Life. In FidoNet he is not.
WD> I hope in a few weeks or months I'll be able to hop to Sweden, have a
WD> few drinks with Bjorn and publish a long overdue photo of him and I
WD> sharing a beer. Just like I went to eat pizza with Janis. breakfasted
WD> with Pablo Kleinman, dined with Ron Dwight, shared beers with Basilis
WD> Tsapas (I think), went to see Bob Bashe who all figured at some time I
WD> was an incompetent demon ...
I hope you get a chance to do that, too. I'd probably get along with
him too, over a beer and non-Fido conversation. Not really relevant to
the discussion though.
WD> Freedom of speech, Dan, and friendships. There are people who can't
WD> mutually stand each other's guts, but I like 'm all. Some Russian
WD> sysops I'd love to meet (and teach m how to drink beer), also go to
WD> Ukraine, go to the Crimea and drink some of their wines (and the
WD> destilates, so I'm told)...
Freedom of speech is also pretty much not relevant here. That has to do
with the powers of a Government over a country's citizens. Not really
what we're talking about.
WD> Some advice: why not try to learn from Bjorn, he has stuff to give and
WD> is very generous. I'm sure you are too...
I'm always willing to learn. The problem in this case is that the
person in question cannot put aside his biases and talk in a civil
manner, without politics, innuendo and "witty" barbs.
... Wisdom is knowing what to do with what you know.
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