Subj : WWIII
To   : ALEXANDER KORYAGIN
From : BOB KLAHN
Date : Fri Jun 06 2014 01:29 am


Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any
idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a
woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long
time, is not a govt I believe is honest.

 BK>> I wonder about that. I wonder if, maybe, he's got it backwards. I
 BK>> wonder if the result of doing nothing might not be what leads to
 BK>> the war nobody wants.

 BK>> We have long been told that Hitler might have been stopped,
 BK>> probably would have been stopped, if the other nations had stepped
 BK>> in with his first aggression against the Sudentenland, against
 BK>> Austria, against those who could not defend themselves.

 BK>> What makes anyone think Putin is any less than Hitler?

AK> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of
AK> Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.

Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops
and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently
been withdrawn.

What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states
reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.
That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid,
including the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few
years ago.

...

AK> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you
AK> think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,
AK> Czechoslovakia?

I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is
when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked
gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are
they masked?

If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a
problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by
masked gunmen.

AK> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting
AK> in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always
AK> lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were
AK> extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their
AK> candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from
AK> power.

Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and
killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how
many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in
Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?

AK> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured
AK> power by force, violating all democratic institutions and
AK> election results.

By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.
According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten
after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention
or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding
the previous constitution be reinstated.

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830

But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them
protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of
bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down.
----------------------------------------------------------------

AK> Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist
AK> Germany.

AK> Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and
AK> topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody
AK> else.

Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.

 BK>> When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan
 BK>> and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would

...

AK> It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military
AK> invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among
AK> bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when

Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for
oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never
in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw
up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.

...

 BK>> No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government,
 BK>> Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid
 BK>> would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to
 BK>> stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in
 BK>> spade, but too weak morally.

AK> It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an
AK> invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian
AK> "invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.

Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted
to cut the Ukraine up.


http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd

washingtonpost
ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for-
aiding-current-government

Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news
conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the
legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon
Russia to intervene militarily.

The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir
Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia
asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day
after he spoke to the press.

...

Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S.
for aiding current government

...

"The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych
said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city
of Rostov-on-Don.

Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not
take questions, accused the West and the United States of
backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being
made by Russian authorities.

...

On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in
the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian
leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted
behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join
Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their
decision.

Some links to look at.

Wall street journal
http://tinyurl.com/ohlh6ys

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27633117

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution


BOB KLAHN [email protected]   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... I'm not lost -- I'm "locationally challenged"
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