Skyrim: Season Unending negotiation algorithm & guide
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/ /
/ /
/ Contents /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/
Introduction / What is this guide? > > > > > > ~I
Terminology - - - - - - - - - - ~T
Seating Arrangement . . . . . . . . . ~S
General Advice > > > > > > > > > > ~G
Negotiation Overview - - - - - - - - - ~O
The Algorithm . . . . . . . . . . ~A
Simple Explanation . . . . . . . . ~AS
Full Explanation . . . . . . . . . ~AF
Examples > > > > > > > > > > > ~X
Basic Examples > > > > > > > > > ~XB
Advanced Examples > > > > > > > > > ~XA
Brash Assumptions - - - - - - - - - ~B
FAQ . . . . . . . . . . . ~Q
Contact > > > > > > > > > > > ~C
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/ Introduction / What is this guide? /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~I
This guide details how the civil war negotiation in High Hrothgar works in the
mission "Season Unending" in the main questline of the game "The Elder Scrolls
V: Skyrim". Specifically, it explains in detail the algorithm determining what
happens during the negotiation.
This guide is targeted at those wishing for a better understanding of how the
negotiation works, so that they can get closer to their desired outcome. For
those that just want some general pointers on how to go about negotiating, I
also provide a "General Advice" section, although the primary goal of this
guide is to explain the negotiation in-depth.
Motivations for Writing this Guide
Why write this guide? Well, simply because I was unable to find a complete
explanation as to how the Season Unending negotiation works, so I thought I
might try to figure it out for myself. I've done the same for Skyrim's
Potion/Alchemy calculations too, with significant help from UESP
[www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ingredients], although the calculations seem to be a
little off when the Alchemy skill level is something other than 100. Possibly
some sort of rounding/precision problem, but I haven't yet been able to work it
out. I may work on a guide for that someday.
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/ Terminology /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~T
Before beginning, some basic concepts...
Major and Minor holds - Each side has 1 major hold and 2 minor holds at the
start of the civil war. Major holds are Reach/Markarth and Rift/Riften.
Basically major holds are those whose capital city must be "entered" from the
world. Note however that neither do Whiterun nor a side's base hold, Solitude
and Eastmarch/Windhelm, count as a major hold for the purposes of the
negotiation.
Concessions - These are the demands one side makes in the latter half of the
negotiation. One side will always start demanding concessions from the other
side after the initial exchange of holds, specifically after Esbern's speech.
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/ Seating Arrangement /
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/________________________________________________________________________/ ~S
..What? Might as well.
--- --------------- ---
| |
| Wulfgar Borri |
| |
| Arrngeir |
| --------- |
| Elenwen/ \Esbern |
| / --- \ |
| Balgruuf| / \ |Delphine |
| | | | | |
| Tullius| | | |Ulfric |
| | | | | |
| Elisif| \ / |Galmor |
| \ --- / |
| Rikke\ /Vignar |
| --------- |
| Dragonborn |
| |
| Einarth |
| |
---------------------------------
Either Balgruuf or Vignar will be present; not both. The other seat will be
empty. Their role in the negotiation is Jarl of Whiterun, the Jarlship of which
can change during the civil war questline. Those not around the table are
standing.
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/ General Advice /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~G
This section is for those that are just after some basic advice, and only want
a general or high-level idea of how the negotiation works.
Fairness
... 2 1 00 1 2 ...
+----------^^----------+
| || |
| || |
| || |
| || |
_______+_______ || _______+_______
\ Imperials / || \ Stormcloaks /
\___________/ / \ \___________/
/ \
/ \
Basically, each decision you make adds a weight onto a scale. Certain events
that occur also automatically add weights onto the scale, without the
Dragonborn's intervention. The weights added to the scale have a weight of 1,
and in some cases 2. The way each side reacts is largely determined by the
state of the scale. If the scale is weighted towards one side, the other will
have a tendency to complain, claim the Dragonborn is biased, and demand an
increasing amount of concessions later in the negotiation.
The weights that get added are as follows:
- If you say the Thalmor should leave, this decision favors the Stormcloaks,
and so adds a weight of 1 to the Stormcloak side
- Alternatively, if you say the Thalmor should stay, this decision favors the
Imperials, and so adds a weight of 1 to the Imperial side
- One side will make the first demand and get the other's major hold, adding a
weight of 2 points to their side; this is out of the Dragonborn's control
- If you give the counter demanding side a major hold in return, this adds a
weight of 2 points to their side
- Otherwise if you give them a minor hold, this adds a weight of 1 to their
side
- If you grant a concession to a side, it adds a weight of 1 to their side
- If you deny a concession to a side, it adds a weight of 1 to the opposing
side
The first thing to note is the nature of the negotiations first demand and the
subsequent counter demand. One side will open with a demand for the other's
major hold, and will get the hold and 2 points, except in extreme
circumstances. By allowing the counter demanding side a major hold also, this
gives them 2 points, effectively undoing the effects of the demand.
But unfortunately doing this does not bring the negotiation back to a fair and
balanced state; the sides will take into account the Dragonborn's decision over
the Thalmor earlier, which will always favor one side. So, in this situation,
it will be the side that the Dragonborn's Thalmor decision did not favor that
will be unhappy, and claim bias, even though the demand and counter demand
exchange alone was fair.
To achieve a fairer result, we first have to know which side will make the
counter demand, and so which side will make opening demand. The opening demand
is always made by the Dragonborn's opposing side if they have picked one in the
civil war questline, or otherwise the Stormcloaks. By only giving the counter
demanding side the minor hold, and so 1 point, we can balance things out by
favoring the counter demanding side early on in the negotiations, by siding
with them regarding the dispute over the Thalmor presence.
For example, suppose the Dragonborn has not picked a side in the civil war
questline. The Stormcloaks will make the opening demand, and so the Imperials
will make the counter demand. We will not be favoring the Imperial's counter
demand, so we favor them over the Thalmor dispute, and allow the Thalmor to
stay. The Imperials now have 1 point, the Stormcloaks 0. The Stormcloaks open
with their demand for the Imperials' major hold, and so get 2 points. The
Imperials have 1 point, the Stormcloaks now have 2. The Imperials make their
counter demand, and we choose to give them only the minor hold, giving them 1
point. The first part of the negotiation now ends, with both sides balanced at
2 points. And with that, the previous paragraph should make a bit more sense
:P.
So in summary, for the fairest outcome of this first stage of the negotiation,
side with the counter demanding side regarding the Thalmor decision, then give
the counter demanding side the minor hold. If you only want to exchange major
holds, or want the hold exchange to be fair, it doesn't matter which side you
favor over the Thalmor dispute; one side will always end this stage ahead by 1
point. If you want the Thalmor to stay or leave, make sure you go with the
other side on the second decision. The worst possible outcome is to agree
entirely with the side making the opening demand, in which case they will end
up ahead by 2 points.
The next stage of the negotiation is the concessions. The side that demands
concessions will be the side that is trailing in points, or the side you gave
the minor hold to if the points are balanced.
The concessioning side will go through all the concessions available to them
until they are granted one. They will then continue going through the available
concessions until they are no longer trailing in points. If the available
concessions run out before they are satisfied, they will be unhappy with the
deal, even if the points are actually balanced.
The number of concessions available to a side is usually 2 or 1, 0 in
exceptional cases. The two possible concessions are compensation for a
massacre, and one of the opposing side's minor holds. The minor hold concession
will be available unless the minor hold has been taken in the civil war
questline. The availability of the massacre concession nobody seems to know,
but see the "Brash Assumptions" section for some of my thoughts on this.
Handling concessions is not always as straightforward as it may seem.
Complications arise from the fact that denying a concession is not a neutral
decision - it will add 1 point to the opposing side. The varying number of
available concessions can also be a problem, but bear in mind that a massacre
concession will always be asked for first if it is available; if a minor hold
is requested first, there will only be 1 concession available, otherwise
there's probably 2, depending on the progress of the civil war questline.
If the concessioning side is trailing by 1 point, the solution is simple enough
- grant them the first concession, and with the points balanced, they will not
ask for any further concessions. Similarly if they're trailing by 2 points,
grant concessions until they're satisfied, though there may not be enough
available.
Unfortunately things get tricky if you've been fair so far, and the points are
balanced. The concessioning side will continue to demand concessions until one
is granted. If you grant them one straight away, they'll finish and end up 1
point ahead, which the other side won't like. The only resolution to this is to
deny the first concession, setting them back 1 point, and then grant them the
second, giving the 1 point back, and returning things to 0. If only 1
concession is available to the side, then you're out of luck; you'll have no
choice but to be unfair at the beginning to be fair by the end.
If all is balanced after concessions, both sides will be satisfied with the
terms, otherwise one side will claim bias. As for pleasing the Jarl of
Whiterun, you can't - whether he ends up pleased or displeased is fixed; it
depends entirely on factors outside the negotiation.
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/ Negotiation Overview /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~O
Here the series of events that occur during the negotiation are broken down,
and their various possibilities explained. How the game determines which of the
possibilities to go for is the subject of the section "The Algorithm".
The sequence of events of the negotiation are as follows, with events that do
not always occur marked "optional":
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Pre-Negotiation:
Start - Arrngeir invites everyone to take their seats but Ulfric objects to the
Thalmor being present, and demands they leave
Thalmor question - Ulfric/Tullius asks the Dragonborn if the Thalmor should
stay or leave; 1 choice, 2 possibilities
Thalmor decision - The Dragonborn makes a decision and Elenwen stays/leaves; 1
choice, 2 possibilities
Before negotiation - Stormcloaks/Imperials remark that they're only here to
assist the Dragonborn, and nothing more; 1 choice, 2 possibilities
Opening address - Arrngeir addresses Ulfric/Tullius first, then the other; 1
choice, 2 possibilities
Opening - Arrngeir then makes his opening speech
Demand:
Demand - Stormcloaks/Imperials demand the other's major hold; the other side
makes a counter demand; 1 choice, 2 possibilities, exact dialog may vary
depending on civil war status
Counter-Demand question - Imperials/Stormcloaks request the Dragonborn's input;
1 choice, 2 possibilities
Counter-Demand decision - The Dragonborn decides if the Imperials'/Stormcloaks'
counter demand will be for a major/minor hold, or if the major hold is already
taken in the civil war then the minor hold, or if no minor holds are available
then nothing can be exchanged; 2 choices, 2 and 4 possibilities
Demand performance - Stormcloaks/Imperials will be unhappy with the negotiation
so far, and say the Dragonborn's actions were biased/fair; 2 choices, 2 and 2
possibilities
After demand - The unhappy Stormcloaks/Imperials will have a moan at the other
side; 2 possibilities, exact dialog may vary depending on civil war status
Esbern - Esbern's speech, convincing the unhappy side to continue
Elenwen - Makes a comment following the speech if still present; optional
Elenwen interrupt - Ulfric/Tullius silences Elenwen; optional, 1 choice, 2
possibilities
Concessions:
Concessions start - The unhappy Stormcloaks/Imperials agree to continue and
begin demanding concessions; 1 choice, 2 possibilities, exact dialog may vary
Concession 1 - The Stormcloaks/Imperials demand a massacre compensation / minor
hold concession if available, the massacre compensation taking priority if both
are available; optional, 2 choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concession 1 question - The concessioning Stormcloaks/Imperials are
willing/hesitant in deferring their request to the Dragonborn; optional, 2
choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concession 1 decision - The Dragonborn grants/denies the
Stormcloaks'/Imperials' request; optional, 2 choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concession 1 result - The concessioning Stormcloaks/Imperials are happy/unhappy
with the deal so far; optional, 2 choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concession 2 - A second concession is demanded by the Stormcloaks/Imperials if
available, a minor hold from the other side; optional, 1 choice, 2
possibilities
Concession 2 question - The concessioning Stormcloaks/Imperials are
willing/hesitant in deferring their request to the Dragonborn; optional, 2
choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concession 2 decision - The Dragonborn grants/denies the
Stormcloaks'/Imperials' request; optional, 2 choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concession 2 result - The concessioning Stormcloaks/Imperials are happy/unhappy
with the deal so far; optional, 2 choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Concessions end - The concessioning Stormcloaks/Imperials are happy/unhappy
with the deal, regardless agreeing; 2 choices, 2 and 2 possibilities
Agreement:
Review - Arrngeir reviews the terms agreed
Stormcloak opinion - Ulfric remarks that the deal is fair/biased and teases
Elisif; 1 choice, 2 possibilities
Elisif - Elisif swats Ulfric's remark aside and defers to Tullius
Imperial opinion - Tullius remarks that the deal is workable/biased; 1 choice,
2 possibilities
Negotiation performance - If the Dragonborn has chosen a side in the civil war
questline, Tullius/Ulfric may say that the Dragonborn's actions gave too much
to the opposition / are a disgrace / merit a reward; optional, 2 choices, 2 and
3 possibilities
End:
Depart - Stormcloaks/Imperials leave the table; 1 choice, 2 possibilities
Whiterun Jarl - Balgruuf/Vignar will express concern at the loss of his side's
major hold / elation at the gain of the opposition's major hold / surprise that
the truce worked; 2 choices, 2 and 3 possibilities, although in practice one of
the six, Vignar-Elation, is not possible
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Some of these events deserve a few remarks.
The "Counter-Demand decision" will offer a choice between a major or minor hold
most of the time, but not always. If the major hold of the side making the
original demand has already been taken in the civil war questline, then
obviously it can't be demanded. In this case, only one option will be
presented, and the remarks following the "decision" of the minor hold will be
different from the remarks made normally. In the extreme case of the side
subject to the counter demand having no holds to offer at all, two possible
responses will be provided, although it doesn't matter which one is chosen;
neither has any effect on the negotiations aside the remark immediately
following it.
It is possible to enter the negotiation with one side having no holds left to
bargain with. To do this, in the civil war questline, when the battle for the
fort of the last minor hold begins, simply run off before the battle finishes.
Start arranging the negotiation, and when both sides agree to attend, the fort
battle quest will automatically complete, leaving the opposing side no holds
left for the negotiation.
According to my understanding, there are up to two concessions available to a
side. One will be a massacre compensation, and the other will be one of the
opposing side's minor holds. As far as I can determine, only one of the minor
holds features in the concessions, regardless of how many concessions a side
tries to demand. The minor hold concession will not be available if one minor
hold has been taken in the civil war questline. As for the availability of the
massacre compensation, nobody seems to know, but I'm beginning to suspect that
it only applies to the Imperials; the only massacre compensation concession
I've come across is for the massacre at Karthwasten, which has been
consistently demanded by the Imperials in my playthroughs. I have yet to see
the Stormcloaks demand a massacre compensation concession.
When asking for a concession, the tone of the question will either be neutral
or state that the Dragonborn has been fair/even-handed. If the concessioning
side willingly defers to the Dragonborn, the tone will be fair/even-handed,
whereas if the concessioning side doubtfully defers to the Dragonborn, the tone
will be neutral. However, note that the willing/doubtful speech does not occur
for massacre concessions; the side makes no comment and goes straight to asking
the Dragonborn's opinion.
With this understanding, the events can be condensed into the following concise
form. I give each variable event, basically each event that is not "fixed", an
ID; Q for questions to the Dragonborn, D for decisions the Dragonborn can make,
and otherwise E. A question mark denotes that the event does not always occur
(ala regular expression syntax :P). The numbers of possibilities for each
choice in the event are listed in brackets.
--- Thalmor
Q1 Thalmor question (2)
D1 Thalmor decision (2)
E01 Assist Dragonborn only (2)
E02 Address (2)
--- Opening
E03 Demand (2)
Q2 Counter-Demand question (2)
D2 Counter-Demand decision (2,4)
E04 Demand performance (2,2)
E05 Moan (2)
--- Esbern
E06 Elenwen?
E07 Elenwen interrupt? (2)
E08 Concessions start (2)
E09 Concession 1? (2,2)
Q3 Concession 1 question? (2,2)
D3 Concession 1 decision? (2,2)
E10 Concession 1 result? (2,2)
E11 Concession 2? (2)
Q4 Concession 2 question? (2,2)
D4 Concession 2 decision? (2,2)
E12 Concession 2 result? (2,2)
E13 Concessions end (2,2)
--- Review
E14 Stormcloak opinion (2)
--- Elisif
E15 Imperial opinion (2)
E16 Negotiation performance? (2,3)
E17 Depart (2)
E18 Whiterun Jarl (2,3)
And there you have the negotiation, from start to finish. With all choices and
possibilities for those choices laid out, we can look at how the game decides
which events occur and what possibility to choose for each choice, which is the
focus of the next section.
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/ The Algorithm /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~A
The heart of the guide. The previous section laid out all possible ways the
negotiation could execute. This section explains how the game decides what
happens, which events to play out, and what possibilities to choose.
Those who prefer learning by example may want to skim-read this section and
focus on the "Examples" section, as the explanation here may be difficult to
understand at first glance.
Credit goes to UESP [www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Season_Unending] for originally
providing the idea of a scale and some of the values and effects, with which I
was able to build upon.
=============================== ==============================
============================== Simple Explanation =============================
=============================== ========================~AS===
The following explanation covers most cases, and provides a good introduction
to the concepts involved without getting too worried about fine details and
exceptional cases.
Fairness
... 2 1 00 1 2 ...
+----------^^----------+
| || |
| || |
| || |
| || |
_______+_______ || _______+_______
\ Imperials / || \ Stormcloaks /
\___________/ / \ \___________/
/ \
/ \
This is how most events throughout the negotiation are determined - a Fairness
Scale, starting out balanced at 0, favoring neither side. Certain events,
mostly decisions the Dragonborn makes, tip this scale towards one side or the
other.
For example, suppose the Dragonborn starts out by making a decision favoring
the Imperials, and this decision has a value of 1 point. The Fairness Scale
would tip from 0 balanced to 1 in favor of the Imperials. Suppose next the
Dragonborn makes a decision favoring the Stormcloaks, and this decision also
has a value of 1 point. The Fairness Scale would then tip from 1 favoring
Imperials back to 0.
Alongside this, there are a few other variables the game uses:
- The Dragonborn's side, if chosen, in the civil war questline
- Whether Whiterun is under Imperial or Stormcloak control; it starts out under
Imperial control
The following goes through each event as described in the previous section,
explains how each choice in the event is determined, and what decides if the
event occurs at all. The format of each event is explained first.
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ <Event name and ID> \
<A brief description of the event>
Occurs: <If the event does not always occur, how the game decides if the event
occurs or not>
Choice 1: <The possibilities for a particular choice of the event>
<A description of how the game decides which possibility to choose>
Choice 2: ...
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Placeholders in the above format are in angle brackets, '<' '>'.
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ Event: Thalmor \
The start and Ulfric's objection to the Thalmor presence
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q1: Thalmor \
The Dragonborn is asked whether the Thalmor should leave or stay
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will ask
The Dragonborn's side will ask, or the Stormcloaks if the Dragonborn has not
picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D1: Thalmor \
The Dragonborn decides if the Thalmor leave or stay
Choice 1: The Dragonborn decides leave or stay
If leave - 1 point to the Stormcloaks
If stay - 1 point to the Imperials
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E1: Assist Dragonborn only \
A side states they are only there to assist the Dragonborn, nothing more
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will make the statement
It will be the Dragonborn's opposing side, or the Stormcloaks if the Dragonborn
has not picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E2: Address \
Arrngeir will begin the negotiations by addressing one side first, then the
other
Choice 1: Arrngeir will address Ulfric or Tullius first
As before, it will be the Dragonborn's opposing side, or the Stormcloaks if the
Dragonborn has not picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Opening \
Arrngeir opens the negotiations
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E3: Demand \
One side will make the first demand, demanding the opposing side's major hold
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will make the demand
As before, it will be the Dragonborn's opposing side, or the Stormcloaks if the
Dragonborn has not picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q2: Counter-Demand \
One side will ask the Dragonborn what they think a worthy exchange would be
Choice 1: The Imperials or the Stormcloaks will ask
It will always be the side making the counter-demand, which will be the
Dragonborn's side or the Imperials.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D2: Counter-Demand \
The Dragonborn decides upon the nature of the counter demand
Choice 1: The Imperials or the Stormcloaks get x points, and the other side get
y points, where x and y are decided by choice 2
Again, it will always be the side making the counter-demand.
Choice 2: The Dragonborn chooses a major or minor hold as worthy of exchanging
If major - x=2 for the major hold acquired, y=2 for the major hold acquired
If minor - x=1 for the minor hold acquired, y=2 for the major hold acquired
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E4: Demand performance \
One side will remark on the Dragonborn's performance so far
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will make the remark
The side that the Fairness Scale is against, or the side that made the counter
demand.
Choice 2: They will either say the Dragonborn has been fair or biased
Fair if the Fairness Scale does not favor the opposition, otherwise biased.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E5: Moan \
One side will be unhappy with the negotiation so far, even if the Fairness
Scale is balanced at 0, and will have a moan at the opposition
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will moan
As previously, the side that the Fairness Scale is against, or the side that
made the counter demand.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Esbern \
Esbern's speech, convincing the two sides to continue
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E6: Elenwen \
Elenwen will begin to remark on Esbern's speech
Occurs: Only if the Thalmor were allowed to stay at D1; otherwise go to E8
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E7: Elenwen interrupt \
One side silences Elenwen
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will interrupt
The side that moaned at E5.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E8: Concessions start \
One side agrees to continue and starts demanding concessions
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will go into concessions
As before, the side that moaned at E5.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E9: Concession 1 \
One side demands a particular concession
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will demand the concession
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: The concession will be either a massacre compensation or a minor hold
of the opposing side
If a massacre compensation is available, the massacre compensation, otherwise a
minor hold
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q3: Concession 1 \
One side defers to the Dragonborn in deciding if the concession is granted
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will defer
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: They will either willingly defer to the Dragonborn and ask stating
the Dragonborn's fairness so far, or doubt the Dragonborn and ask neutrally
If the Fairness Scale favors the opposing side then they will doubt the
Dragonborn, otherwise they will willingly defer. Note however that if the
concession is a massacre compensation, they will not make the first comment,
instead skipping straight to the question.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D3: Concession 1 \
The Dragonborn decides whether to grant the concession
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials are the subject of points awarded
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: The concession is granted or denied
If granted - They make a fixed positive remark; 1 point to the side of choice 1
If denied - They make a fixed negative remark; 1 point to the opposing side of
choice 1
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E10: Concession 1 result \
One side either accepts the deal or begins demanding another concession
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will express their view of the deal
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: The deal is accepted or more concessions are needed
If the prior decision D3 denied the concession or the Fairness Scale favors the
opposing side then more concessions are needed, otherwise the deal is accepted.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E11: Concession 2 \
One side demands a minor hold concession
Occurs: If the concessioning side demanded more concessions previously at E10,
and a minor hold has not already been demanded; otherwise go to E13
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will demand the concession
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q4: Concession 2 \
One side defers to the Dragonborn in deciding if the additional concession is
granted
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: As for Q2
Choice 2: As for Q2
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D4: Concession 2 \
The Dragonborn decides whether to grant the concession
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: As for D2
Choice 2: As for D2, except the remark made is different
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E12: Concession 2 result \
One side either accepts the deal or begins demanding another concession
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: As for E10
Choice 2: As for E10, except using D4 instead of D3
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E13: Concessions end \
One side finishes demanding concessions and accepts the deal
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will finish concessions
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: They will either accept the deal as fair, or "put the greater good
above" their own interests
If the deal was accepted at E10 or E12 then the deal is regarded as fair,
otherwise it's "the greater good". The latter possibility can play out even if
the Fairness Scale is balanced at 0.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Review \
Arrngeir reviews the terms agreed
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and its many variations do not affect
the negotiation
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E14: Stormcloak opinion \
Ulfric remarks on the fairness of the deal, then teases Elisif
Choice 1: The deal is either viewed as fair or favoring the opposition
Biased if the Fairness Scale favors the opposition, otherwise fair.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Elisif \
Elisif ignores Ulfric and defers to Tullius
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E15: Imperial opinion \
Tullius remarks on the fairness of the deal
Choice 1: The deal is either viewed as fair or favoring the opposition
Biased if the Fairness Scale favors the opposition, otherwise fair.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E16: Negotiation performance \
The Dragonborn's side may make some remark regarding their actions
Occurs: If the Dragonborn has chosen a side, and one of the conditions in
choice 2 is met
Choice 1: Tullius or Ulfric will make the remark
The leader of the Dragonborn's side.
Choice 2: They will say the Dragonborn gave too much, actions were a disgrace,
or give a reward
If the Dragonborn chose the major hold for the counter demand at D2, they will
be commended for acquiring the hold and given a reward, even if all their other
choices favored the opposition. Otherwise if the Fairness Scale favors the
opposition by 2 or more, their actions will be deemed a disgrace. Otherwise if
the Fairness Scale does not favor the Dragonborn's side, they will be deemed to
have given too much away. Otherwise this event does not occur.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E17: Depart \
One side leaves the table
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will leave
The side that doesn't own Whiterun.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E18: Whiterun Jarl \
The Jarl of Whiterun comments on the results of the negotiation
Choice 1: Balgruuf or Vignar will be present to make the comment
Balgruuf if Whiterun is held by the Imperials, Vignar if Whiterun is held by
the Stormcloaks.
Choice 2: They will say that losing their side's major hold is a high price, or
that gaining their opposing side's major hold is a great success
If the Jarl's opposing side made the first demand and acquired his side's major
hold, which is usually the case, he will state that losing his side's major
hold is a high price, even if the other side's major hold was gained in return.
On the other hand, if the Jarl's side made the first demand and acquired the
opposing side's major hold, the Jarl will be elated, even if his side's major
hold was lost in return. In practice, Vignar will never be elated, because he's
a miserable old git >:0. That and he'll only be at the table if Whiterun was
won by the Stormcloaks, ergo the Dragonborn sided with the Stormcloaks, ergo
the Imperials always make the opening demand, ergo the opposing side of the
Jarl.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
================================ ===============================
=============================== Full Explanation ==============================
================================ =========================~AF===
Table Fairness Dragonborn Fairness
... 2 1 00 1 2 ... ... 2 1 00 1 2 ...
+----------^^----------+ +----------^^----------+
| || | | || |
| || | | || |
| || | | || |
| || | | || |
_______+_______ || _______+_______ _______+_______ || _______+_______
\ Imperials / || \ Stormcloaks / \ Imperials / || \ Stormcloaks /
\___________/ / \ \___________/ \___________/ / \ \___________/
/ \ / \
/ \ / \
Yes. There are actually two scales.
But don't panic! There is only one difference between them; the Dragonborn
Fairness Scale always starts out balanced at 0, whereas the Table Fairness
Scale will start out favoring the losing side if one side is doing particularly
badly in the civil war questline. Whenever points are awarded to a side, they
are always added to both scales; both scales always change together, and by the
same amount. In most cases, the Table Fairness Scale will start out balanced,
and so the two scales will always be equal throughout the negotiation.
The Dragonborn Fairness Scale dictates how the two sides interact with the
Dragonborn directly; the less Dragonborn points a side has compared to the
opposition, the less favorably they will deem the Dragonborn. The Table
Fairness Scale dictates how the two sides interact generally across the table,
and is the scale primarily relied on for decision making; the less Table points
a side has compared to the opposition, the more they will demand from the deal.
Along with the side the Dragonborn is with and which side owns Whiterun, there
are some more factors the game uses to make decisions in unusual circumstances:
- The number of major holds the Imperials still own, not including their base
Solitude and Whiterun, 0-1
- The number of minor holds the Imperials still own, 0-2
- The number of major holds the Stormcloaks still own, not including their base
Windhelm, 0-1
- The number of minor holds the Stormcloaks still own, 0-2
These variables are primarily used in determining the starting balance of the
Table Fairness Scale, as follows:
- If the losing side in the war has 0 major holds and 0 minor holds - 2 points
to that side
- If the losing side in the war has 0 major holds and 1 minor hold - 1 point to
that side
- Otherwise the scale remains balanced
With the complete picture now in mind, here are the events once more, with
precise explanations:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ Event: Thalmor \
The start and Ulfric's objection to the Thalmor presence
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q1: Thalmor \
The Dragonborn is asked whether the Thalmor should leave or stay
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will ask
The Dragonborn's side will ask, or the Stormcloaks if the Dragonborn has not
picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D1: Thalmor \
The Dragonborn decides if the Thalmor leave or stay
Choice 1: The Dragonborn decides leave or stay
If leave - 1 point to the Stormcloaks
If stay - 1 point to the Imperials</pre><pre id="faqspan-2">
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E1: Assist Dragonborn only \
A side states they are only there to assist the Dragonborn, nothing more
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will make the statement
It will be the Dragonborn's opposing side, or the Stormcloaks if the Dragonborn
has not picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E2: Address \
Arrngeir will begin the negotiations by addressing one side first, then the
other
Choice 1: Arrngeir will address Ulfric or Tullius first
As before, it will be the Dragonborn's opposing side, or the Stormcloaks if the
Dragonborn has not picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Opening \
Arrngeir opens the negotiations
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E3: Demand \
One side will make the first demand, demanding the opposing side's major hold
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will make the demand
As before, it will be the Dragonborn's opposing side, or the Stormcloaks if the
Dragonborn has not picked a side.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q2: Counter-Demand \
One side will ask the Dragonborn what they think a worthy exchange would be
Choice 1: The Imperials or the Stormcloaks will ask
It will always be the side making the counter-demand, which will be the
Dragonborn's side or the Imperials.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D2: Counter-Demand \
The Dragonborn decides upon the nature of the counter demand
Choice 1: The Imperials or the Stormcloaks get x points, and the other side get
y points, where x and y are decided by choice 2
Again, it will always be the side making the counter-demand.
Choice 2: The Dragonborn chooses a major hold, a minor hold, must choose a
minor hold, or cannot choose anything as worthy of exchanging
If major - x=2 for the major hold acquired, y=2 for the major hold acquired
If minor - x=1 for the minor hold acquired, y=2 for the major hold acquired
If mandatory minor - x=1 for the minor hold acquired, y=2 for the major hold
acquired
If nothing available - No points given to either side, x=0, y=0
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E4: Demand performance \
One side will remark on the Dragonborn's performance so far
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will make the remark
The side that the Table Fairness Scale is against, or the side that made the
counter demand.
Choice 2: They will either say the Dragonborn has been fair or biased
Fair if the Dragonborn Fairness Scale does not favor the opposition, otherwise
biased.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E5: Moan \
One side will be unhappy with the negotiation so far, even if the Table
Fairness Scale is balanced at 0, and will have a moan at the opposition
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will moan
As previously, the side that the Table Fairness Scale is against, or the side
that made the counter demand.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Esbern \
Esbern's speech, convincing the two sides to continue
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E6: Elenwen \
Elenwen will begin to remark on Esbern's speech
Occurs: Only if the Thalmor were allowed to stay at D1; otherwise go to E8
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E7: Elenwen interrupt \
One side silences Elenwen
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will interrupt
The side that moaned at E5.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E8: Concessions start \
One side agrees to continue and starts demanding concessions
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will go into concessions
As before, the side that moaned at E5.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E9: Concession 1 \
One side demands a particular concession
Occurs: If concessions are available to the concessioning side, otherwise go to
E13
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will demand the concession
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: The concession will be either a massacre compensation or a minor hold
of the opposing side
If a massacre compensation is available, the massacre compensation, otherwise a
minor hold
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q3: Concession 1 \
One side defers to the Dragonborn in deciding if the concession is granted
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will defer
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: They will either willingly defer to the Dragonborn and ask stating
the Dragonborn's fairness so far, or doubt the Dragonborn and ask neutrally
If the Dragonborn Fairness Scale favors the opposing side then they will doubt
the Dragonborn, otherwise they will willingly defer. Note however that if the
concession is a massacre compensation, they will not make the first comment,
instead skipping straight to the question.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D3: Concession 1 \
The Dragonborn decides whether to grant the concession
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials are the subject of points awarded
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: The concession is granted or denied
If granted - They make a fixed positive remark; 1 point to the side of choice 1
If denied - They make a fixed negative remark; 1 point to the opposing side of
choice 1
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E10: Concession 1 result \
One side either accepts the deal or begins demanding another concession
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will express their view of the deal
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: The deal is accepted or more concessions are needed
If the prior decision D3 denied the concession or the Table Fairness Scale
favors the opposing side then more concessions are needed, otherwise the deal
is accepted.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E11: Concession 2 \
One side demands a minor hold concession
Occurs: If another concession is available to the concessioning side, and the
concessioning side demanded more concessions previously at E10; otherwise go to
E13
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will demand the concession
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Question Q4: Concession 2 \
One side defers to the Dragonborn in deciding if the additional concession is
granted
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: As for Q2
Choice 2: As for Q2
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Decision D4: Concession 2 \
The Dragonborn decides whether to grant the concession
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: As for D2
Choice 2: As for D2, except the remark made is different
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E12: Concession 2 result \
One side either accepts the deal or begins demanding another concession
Occurs: Alongside the previous
Choice 1: As for E10
Choice 2: As for E10, except using D4 instead of D3
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E13: Concessions end \
One side finishes demanding concessions and accepts the deal
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will finish concessions
The concessioning side, determined at E8.
Choice 2: They will either accept the deal as fair, or "put the greater good
above" their own interests
If the deal was accepted at E10 or E12 then the deal is regarded as fair,
otherwise it's "the greater good". The latter possibility can play out even if
the Table Fairness Scale is balanced at 0.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Review \
Arrngeir reviews the terms agreed
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and its many variations do not affect
the negotiation
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E14: Stormcloak opinion \
Ulfric remarks on the fairness of the deal, then teases Elisif
Choice 1: The deal is either viewed as fair or favoring the opposition
Biased if the Table Fairness Scale favors the opposition, otherwise fair.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event: Elisif \
Elisif ignores Ulfric and defers to Tullius
This event is fixed; it always occurs, and there are no notable variations
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E15: Imperial opinion \
Tullius remarks on the fairness of the deal
Choice 1: The deal is either viewed as fair or favoring the opposition
Biased if the Table Fairness Scale favors the opposition, otherwise fair.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E16: Negotiation performance \
The Dragonborn's side may make some remark regarding their actions
Occurs: If the Dragonborn has chosen a side, and one of the conditions in
choice 2 is met
Choice 1: Tullius or Ulfric will make the remark
The leader of the Dragonborn's side.
Choice 2: They will say the Dragonborn gave too much, actions were a disgrace,
or give a reward
If the Dragonborn chose the major hold for the counter demand at D2, they will
be commended for acquiring the hold and given a reward, even if all their other
choices favored the opposition. Otherwise if the Dragonborn Fairness Scale
favors the opposition by 2 or more, their actions will be deemed a disgrace.
Otherwise if the Dragonborn Fairness Scale does not favor the Dragonborn's
side, they will be deemed to have given too much away. Otherwise this event
does not occur.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E17: Depart \
One side leaves the table
Choice 1: The Stormcloaks or the Imperials will leave
The side that doesn't own Whiterun.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
_____________________________________________________________________________
/Event E18: Whiterun Jarl \
The Jarl of Whiterun comments on the results of the negotiation
Choice 1: Balgruuf or Vignar will be present to make the comment
Balgruuf if Whiterun is held by the Imperials, Vignar if Whiterun is held by
the Stormcloaks.
Choice 2: They will say that losing their side's major hold is a high price,
that gaining their opposing side's major hold is a great success, or express
surprise that the negotiations succeeded
If the Jarl's opposing side made the first demand and acquired his side's major
hold, which is usually the case, he will state that losing his side's major
hold is a high price, even if the other side's major hold was gained in return.
On the other hand, if the Jarl's side made the first demand and acquired the
opposing side's major hold, the Jarl will be elated, even if his side's major
hold was lost in return. Otherwise if the side making the first demand couldn't
get the major hold because they had nothing to offer, the Jarl expresses
surprise that the truce worked. In practice, Vignar will never be elated,
because he's still a miserable old git >:0. That and he'll only be at the table
if Whiterun was won by the Stormcloaks, ergo the Dragonborn sided with the
Stormcloaks, ergo the Imperials always make the opening demand, ergo the
opposing side of the Jarl.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
So, to go over the changes from the simple explanation earlier...
The counter demand decision D2 is the biggest change, since the options depend
on the number of holds a losing side has to offer in return. Remember, the
losing side in the civil war will always be the one making the first demand,
and so always the one subject to the counter demand. If the losing side has
already lost their major hold, having only 1 minor hold remaining, the
Dragonborn will be forced to offer the minor hold, and with it the winning side
will not be able to demand a minor hold if they go into concessions. If the
losing side does not even have a minor hold to offer, then no holds are
exchanged, and no points given. You'll be given two dialog choices in this
case, but whichever is chosen does not affect the negotiation.
As alluded to above, minor hold concessions will not be available if the
winning side goes into concessions with the losing side having less than 2
minor holds.
With the possibility of no major holds changing sides if the losing side has
nothing to offer in return, there is a third possibility for what the Jarl of
Whiterun says. Usually he remarks about the major hold that was a compulsory
loss or gain, but in the event that it cannot be exchanged at all, he simply
expresses surprise that the negotiations worked out.
Finally, there are the comments to the Dragonborn that depend on the Dragonborn
Fairness Scale rather than the usual Table Fairness Scale. These are the
comment made by the unhappy side before they moan at the opposition, the
remarks made when deferring to the Dragonborn regarding concessions, and the
Dragonborn's side's leader's judgment of their actions at the end of the
negotiation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
/ /
/ Examples /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~X
Here I provide examples to further clarify how the negotiation algorithm works.
A score of 3-2 means the Imperials have 3 points and the Stormcloaks have 2; I
place the Imperials on the left, as that is the side of the table they sit on
from the player's perspective. In each example, unless stated otherwise, I
assume that the massacre concession is available to the Imperials, but not the
Stormcloaks.
The format of each example follows:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: <Which side the Dragonborn is with in the civil war questline;
Neutral/Imperial/Stormcloak>
Whiterun: <Which side holds Whiterun, Imperial to begin with;
Imperial/Stormcloak>
Imperial Major/Minor holds: <Number of major holds the Imperials still own, not
including their base Solitude or Whiterun; 0-1> / <Number of minor holds the
Imperials still own; 0-2>
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: <Number of major holds the Stormcloaks still own,
not including their base Windhelm; 0-1> / <Number of minor holds the
Stormcloaks still own; 0-2>
Decisions:
Thalmor: <The Dragonborn's decision about the Thalmor presence; Leave/Stay>
Counter-Demand: <The Dragonborn's decision about what hold the counter
demanding side gets; Major / Minor / Minor (mandatory) / No Exchange>
Concession 1: <The Dragonborn's decision about the first concession;
granted/denied/->
Concession 2: <The Dragonborn's decision about the second concession;
granted/denied/->
<A walkthrough of how the negotiation plays out and why>
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
By putting the values for the variables and decisions together, each possible
negotiation can be uniquely identified; the values become a "primary key" of
sorts, in some hypothetical database filled with all possible negotiations.
================================= ================================
================================ Basic Examples ===============================
================================= ==========================~XB===
Let's start out with a simple one, one that tries to be as fair as possible:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Neutral
Whiterun: Imperial (always the case if neutral)
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/2 (always the case if neutral)
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 1/2 (always the case if neutral)
Decisions:
Thalmor: Stay
Counter-Demand: Minor
Concession 1: Denied
Concession 2: Granted
The Fairness Scale starts out at 0-0. Ulfric asks what the Dragonborn thinks
about the Thalmor's presence, since the Dragonborn is neutral. The Dragonborn
decides the Thalmor should stay, favoring the Imperials, and the score goes to
1-0. Before negotiations can start, the Stormcloaks are the ones to say that
they are only here to assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn is neutral.
Arrngeir's opening addresses Ulfric first, since the Dragonborn is neutral.
The Stormcloaks make the opening demand for the Imperials' major hold, since
the Dragonborn is neutral. In return, the Dragonborn gives the Imperials a
minor hold of the Stormcloaks'. The Stormcloaks get 2 points for acquiring a
major hold, and the Imperials get 1 point for acquiring a minor hold. The score
advances to 2-2, balanced.
Since the score is balanced, the counter demanding side, the Imperials, are the
ones to be unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into
concessions. Since the score does not dis-favor the Imperials, the Imperials
don't blame the Dragonborn for their actions. They then proceed to moan until
Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, since the Thalmor are still present, Elenwen begins to
quip, but she is promptly silenced by the unhappy side, the Imperials. The
Imperials then begin demanding concessions, 2 of which are available.
They demand the massacre compensation first, as it always takes priority. Since
the score does not favor the opposition, the Imperials are willing to defer the
decision to the Dragonborn, who denies it. The score advances to 2-3. The score
now favors the opposition, so they continue to demand concessions.
The next available concession is a minor hold of the Stormcloaks'. Since the
score favors the opposition, they doubtfully defer the decision to the
Dragonborn. The Dragonborn grants the concession, and the score becomes 3-3.
The score is no longer against them, so they are satisfied and end the
concessions.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks are satisfied, since the score does
not favor the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does
not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn does not have a side, so there is no
comment about their performance. The Stormcloaks depart, since they do not own
Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the loss of his side's major hold,
Markarth, is a heavy price to pay, since it was mandatory that it be lost in
the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Now let's modify the concession decisions a bit, and see what happens...
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables: As above
Decisions:
Thalmor: Stay
Counter-Demand: Minor
Concession 1: Granted
Concession 2: -
The score is 2-2, and the Imperials start demanding concessions.
They demand the massacre compensation first, as it always takes priority. Since
the score does not favor the opposition, the Imperials are willing to defer the
decision to the Dragonborn, who grants it. The score advances to 3-2. The score
does not favor the opposition, so they are satisfied and end the concessions.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks claim bias, since the score favors
the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does not favor
the Stormcloaks.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Even though the same amount of concessions were granted to the Imperials in
both cases, the results are different, because denying a concession favors the
opposite side.
Now let's go through an example where the Dragonborn has just sided with the
Stormcloaks in the civil war, but not taken Whiterun yet:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Stormcloak
Whiterun: Imperial
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Decisions:
Thalmor: Stay
Counter-Demand: Minor
Concession 1: Granted
Concession 2: -
The Fairness Scale starts out at 0-0. Ulfric asks what the Dragonborn thinks
about the Thalmor's presence, since the Dragonborn is on his side. The
Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should stay, favoring the Imperials, and the
score goes to 1-0. Before negotiations can start, the Imperials are the ones to
say that they are only here to assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn
opposes them. Arrngeir's opening addresses Tullius first, since the Dragonborn
opposes him.
The Imperials make the opening demand for the Stormcloaks' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. In return, the Dragonborn gives the Stormcloaks a
minor hold of the Imperials'. The Imperials get 2 points for acquiring a major
hold, and the Stormcloaks get 1 point for acquiring a minor hold. The score
advances to 3-1, favoring the Imperials.
Since the score favors the Imperials, the Stormcloaks are the ones to be
unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into concessions. Since
the score favors the opposition, the Stormcloaks condemn the Dragonborn for
bias. They then proceed to moan until Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, since the Thalmor are still present, Elenwen begins to
quip, but she is promptly silenced by the unhappy side, the Stormcloaks. The
Stormcloaks then begin demanding concessions, 1 of which is available.
They demand a minor hold, the only concession available. Since the score favors
the opposition, they doubtfully defer the decision to the Dragonborn, who
grants it. The score advances to 3-2. The score still favors the opposition, so
they continue to demand concessions.
However, no further concessions are available, so they give up, placing "the
greater good" above their own interests. The negotiation concludes with the
score at 3-2.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks claim bias, since the score favors
the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does not favor
the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's side is not favored but does not trail by 2
or more, so Ulfric claims they gave too much away. The Stormcloaks depart,
since they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the gain of
his opposing side's major hold, Riften, is a great success, since it was
mandatory that it be gained in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
The major differences here are that the Imperials are the ones being least
cooperative and making the first demand in the early stages of the negotiation,
whereas previously it was the Stormcloaks.
Let's advance the civil war a bit, and gain Whiterun for the Stormcloaks. We'll
also deny Ulfric's concession.
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Stormcloak
Whiterun: Stormcloak
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Decisions:
Thalmor: Stay
Counter-Demand: Minor
Concession 1: Denied
Concession 2: -
Everything happens as before, and the Stormcloaks end up in concessions, with
the score at 3-1.
They demand a minor hold, the only concession available. Since the score favors
the opposition, they doubtfully defer the decision to the Dragonborn, who
denies it. The score advances to 4-1. The score still favors the opposition, so
they continue to demand concessions.
However, no further concessions are available, so they give up, placing "the
greater good" above their own interests. The negotiation concludes with the
score at 4-1.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks claim bias, since the score favors
the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does not favor
the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's side is not favored and trails by 2 or more
points, so Ulfric condemns their actions as a disgrace. The Imperials depart,
since they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the loss of
his side's major hold, Riften, is a heavy price to pay, since it was mandatory
that it be lost in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
The denial of the concession makes the Stormcloaks trail by 3 points rather
than 1 before, so Ulfric is even less pleased with the Dragonborn. The
Imperials are now the ones to leave, since they no longer hold Whiterun, and
the Jarl of Whiterun has changed, so the comment gets reversed.
Now we'll try giving Ulfric the major hold instead of the minor one:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables: As before
Decisions:
Thalmor: Stay
Counter-Demand: Major
Concession 1: Denied
Concession 2: -
The Fairness Scale starts out at 0-0. Ulfric asks what the Dragonborn thinks
about the Thalmor's presence, since the Dragonborn is on his side. The
Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should stay, favoring the Imperials, and the
score goes to 1-0. Before negotiations can start, the Imperials are the ones to
say that they are only here to assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn
opposes them. Arrngeir's opening addresses Tullius first, since the Dragonborn
opposes him.
The Imperials make the opening demand for the Stormcloaks' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. In return, the Dragonborn gives the Stormcloaks
the major hold of the Imperials'. The Imperials get 2 points for acquiring a
major hold, and the Stormcloaks also get 2 points for acquiring a major hold.
The score advances to 3-2, favoring the Imperials.
Since the score favors the Imperials, the Stormcloaks are the ones to be
unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into concessions. Since
the score favors the opposition, the Stormcloaks condemn the Dragonborn for
bias. They then proceed to moan until Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, since the Thalmor are still present, Elenwen begins to
quip, but she is promptly silenced by the unhappy side, the Stormcloaks. The
Stormcloaks then begin demanding concessions, 1 of which is available.
They demand a minor hold, the only concession available. Since the score favors
the opposition, they doubtfully defer the decision to the Dragonborn, who
denies it. The score advances to 4-2. The score still favors the opposition, so
they continue to demand concessions.
However, no further concessions are available, so they give up, placing "the
greater good" above their own interests. The negotiation concludes with the
score at 4-2.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks claim bias, since the score favors
the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does not favor
the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's side has gained a major hold, so Ulfric
rewards the Dragonborn, despite the fact his side trails by 2 points, which
would otherwise yield a judgment of disgrace. The Imperials depart, since they
do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the loss of his side's
major hold, Riften, is a heavy price to pay, since it was mandatory that it be
lost in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
For the next example, we'll side with the Imperials, and make a fair deal that
involves exchanging the two sides' major holds.
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Imperial
Whiterun: Imperial
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Decisions:
Thalmor: Leave
Counter-Demand: Major
Concession 1: Granted
Concession 2: -
The Fairness Scale starts out at 0-0. Tullius asks what the Dragonborn thinks
about the Thalmor's presence, since the Dragonborn is on their side. The
Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should leave, favoring the Stormcloaks, and the
score goes to 0-1. Before negotiations can start, the Stormcloaks are the ones
to say that they are only here to assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn
opposes them. Arrngeir's opening addresses Ulfric first, since the Dragonborn
opposes him.
The Stormcloaks make the opening demand for the Imperials' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. In return, the Dragonborn gives the Imperials a
major hold of the Stormcloaks'. The Stormcloaks get 2 points for acquiring a
major hold, and the Imperials also get 2 points for acquiring a major hold. The
score advances to 2-3, favoring the Stormcloaks.
Since the score favors the Stormcloaks, the Imperials are the ones to be
unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into concessions. Since
the score favors the opposition, the Imperials condemn the Dragonborn for bias.
They then proceed to moan until Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, there is no quip from Elenwen, since the Thalmor have
left. The Imperials then begin demanding concessions, 2 of which are available.
They demand the massacre compensation first, as it always takes priority. Since
the score favors the opposition, the Imperials doubtfully defer the decision to
the Dragonborn, who grants it. The score advances to 3-3. The score is no
longer against them, so they are satisfied and end the concessions.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks are satisfied, since the score does
not favor the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does
not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's side is not favored but does not
trail by 2 or more, so Tullius claims they gave too much away. The Stormcloaks
depart, since they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the
loss of his side's major hold, Markarth, is a heavy price to pay, since it was
mandatory that it be lost in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
=============================== ===============================
============================== Advanced Examples ==============================
=============================== =========================~XA===
In situations where the Table Fairness Scale score and the Dragonborn Fairness
Scale score are different, I place the Dragonborn score in brackets after the
Table score. For example, a score of 3-2 (1-2) means the Imperials have 3 Table
points and 1 Dragonborn point, and the Stormcloaks have 2 Table points and 2
Dragonborn points. When the scales are equal, which they are under normal
conditions, I make no distinction.
We'll start with an extreme example - the Stormcloaks have no holds left for
bargaining, all their holds bar Windhelm having been taken in the civil war
questline.
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Imperial
Whiterun: Imperial
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 0/0
Decisions:
Thalmor: Leave
Counter-Demand: No Exchange
Concession 1: Denied
Concession 2: -
The scales start out at 2-0 (0-0). The Imperials start out with 2 Table points
on the Table Fairness Scale since the opposition has no major or minor holds
left. The Dragonborn Fairness Scale always starts out balanced.
Tullius asks what the Dragonborn thinks about the Thalmor's presence, since the
Dragonborn is on his side. The Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should leave,
favoring the Stormcloaks, and the score goes to 2-1 (0-1). Before negotiations
can start, the Stormcloaks are the ones to say that they are only here to
assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn opposes them. Arrngeir's opening
addresses Ulfric first, since the Dragonborn opposes him.
The Stormcloaks make the opening demand for the Imperials' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. However, they have nothing to offer in return, so
no holds are exchanged. The score remains at 2-1 (0-1).
Since the Table Fairness Scale favors the Imperials, the Stormcloaks are the
ones to be unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into
concessions. Since the Dragonborn Fairness Scale does not dis-favor them, the
Stormcloaks don't blame the Dragonborn for their actions. They then proceed to
moan until Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, there is no quip from Elenwen, since the Thalmor have
left. The Stormcloaks then begin demanding concessions, 1 of which is
available.
They demand a minor hold, the only concession available. Since the Dragonborn
Fairness Scale does not favor the opposition, the Stormcloaks are willing to
defer the decision to the Dragonborn, who denies it. The score advances to 3-1
(1-1). The Table Fairness Scale still favors the opposition, so they continue
to demand concessions.
However, no further concessions are available, so they give up, placing "the
greater good" above their own interests. The negotiation concludes with the
score at 3-1 (1-1). Although the Dragonborn has been fair to both sides, the
terms agreed favor the winning Imperials.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks claim bias, since the Table
Fairness Scale favors the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the
Table Fairness Scale does not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's side is
not favored on the Dragonborn Fairness Scale but does not trail by 2 or more,
so Tullius claims they gave too much away. The Stormcloaks depart, since they
do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun expresses surprise that the truce
worked, since no major hold exchanged sides.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
What's unusual here is that after the demand and counter demand, the Dragonborn
Fairness Scale favors the Stormcloaks, yet the Table Fairness Scale favors the
Imperials. This explains why, despite being unhappy with the deal, the
Stormcloaks remain happy with the Dragonborn's actions. Also note the ending
score - the Dragonborn Fairness Scale is balanced, meaning the Dragonborn has
been fair to both sides, but the Table Fairness Scale is not, meaning the deal
favors one side. In order to make the deal fair, the Dragonborn has to favor
the losing side, as in the following example:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables: As before
Decisions:
Thalmor: Leave
Counter-Demand: No Exchange
Concession 1: Granted
Concession 2: -
The negotiation proceeds as before, up to the Stormcloaks going into
concessions, with the score at 2-1 (0-1).
They demand a minor hold, the only concession available. Since the Dragonborn
Fairness Scale does not favor the opposition, the Stormcloaks are willing to
defer the decision to the Dragonborn, who grants it. The score advances to 2-2
(0-2). The Table Fairness Scale is now balanced, so they are satisfied and end
the concessions.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks are satisfied, since the Table
Fairness Scale does not favor the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied,
since the Table Fairness Scale does not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's
side is not favored on the Dragonborn Fairness Scale and trails by 2 or more,
so Tullius condemns the Dragonborn's actions as a disgrace. The Stormcloaks
depart, since they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun expresses surprise
that the truce worked, since no major hold exchanged sides.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Now the inverse is the case; despite both sides being satisfied with the deal,
Tullius condemns the Dragonborn's actions, as in order to make the deal fair
they had to favor the losing side heavily.
Now let's look at an example where one side retains 1 minor hold with their
major hold lost...
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Imperial
Whiterun: Imperial
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 0/1
Decisions:
Thalmor: Leave
Counter-Demand: Minor, mandatory
Concession 1: Granted
Concession 2: -
The scales start out at 1-0 (0-0). The Imperials start out with 1 Table point
on the Table Fairness Scale since the opposition has no major holds left, but
retains a minor hold. The Dragonborn Fairness Scale always starts out balanced.
Tullius asks what the Dragonborn thinks about the Thalmor's presence, since the
Dragonborn is on his side. The Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should leave,
favoring the Stormcloaks, and the score goes to 1-1 (0-1). Before negotiations
can start, the Stormcloaks are the ones to say that they are only here to
assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn opposes them. Arrngeir's opening
addresses Ulfric first, since the Dragonborn opposes him.
The Stormcloaks make the opening demand for the Imperials' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. In return, the Dragonborn can only give the
Imperials a minor hold of the Stormcloaks', since their major hold has been
taken in the civil war. The Stormcloaks get 2 points for acquiring a major
hold, and the Imperials get 1 point for acquiring a minor hold. The Stormcloaks
now have no minor holds left. The score advances to 2-3 (1-3), favoring the
Stormcloaks.
Since the Table Fairness Scale favors the Stormcloaks, the Imperials are the
ones to be unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into
concessions. Since the Dragonborn Fairness Scale does not favor them, the
Imperials condemn the Dragonborn for bias. They then proceed to moan until
Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, there is no quip from Elenwen, since the Thalmor have
left. The Imperials then begin demanding concessions, 1 of which is available.
They demand a massacre compensation, the only concession available since the
Stormcloaks have no minor holds left. Since the Dragonborn Fairness Scale
favors the opposition, the Imperials doubtfully defer the decision to the
Dragonborn, who grants it. The score advances to 3-3 (2-3). The Table Fairness
Scale is now balanced, so they are satisfied and end the concessions.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks are satisfied, since the Table
Fairness Scale does not favor the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied,
since the Table Fairness Scale does not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's
side is not favored on the Dragonborn Fairness Scale but does not trail by 2 or
more, so Tullius claims they gave too much away. The Stormcloaks depart, since
they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the loss of his
side's major hold, Markarth, is a heavy price to pay, since it was mandatory
that it be lost in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Let's try being fairer to both sides at the start, and see how that affects the
rest of the negotiation...
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables: As before
Decisions:
Thalmor: Stay
Counter-Demand: Minor, mandatory
Concession 1: Granted
Concession 2: -
The scales start out at 1-0 (0-0), as before.
Tullius asks what the Dragonborn thinks about the Thalmor's presence, since the
Dragonborn is on his side. The Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should stay,
favoring the Imperials, and the score goes to 2-0 (1-0). Before negotiations
can start, the Stormcloaks are the ones to say that they are only here to
assist the Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn opposes them. Arrngeir's opening
addresses Ulfric first, since the Dragonborn opposes him.
The Stormcloaks make the opening demand for the Imperials' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. In return, the Dragonborn can only give the
Imperials a minor hold of the Stormcloaks', since their major hold has been
taken in the civil war. The Stormcloaks get 2 points for acquiring a major
hold, and the Imperials get 1 point for acquiring a minor hold. The Stormcloaks
now have no minor holds left. The score advances to 3-2 (2-2).
Since the Table Fairness Scale favors the Imperials, the Stormcloaks are the
ones to be unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into
concessions. Since the Dragonborn Fairness Scale does not dis-favor them, the
Stormcloaks don't blame the Dragonborn for their actions. They then proceed to
moan until Esbern interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, since the Thalmor are still present, Elenwen begins to
quip, but she is promptly silenced by the unhappy side, the Stormcloaks. The
Stormcloaks then begin demanding concessions, 1 of which is available.
They demand a minor hold, the only concession available. Since the Dragonborn
Fairness Scale does not favor the opposition, the Stormcloaks willingly defer
the decision to the Dragonborn, who grants it. The score advances to 3-3 (2-3).
The Table Fairness Scale is now balanced, so they are satisfied and end the
concessions.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks are satisfied, since the Table
Fairness Scale does not favor the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied,
since the Table Fairness Scale does not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's
side is not favored on the Dragonborn Fairness Scale but does not trail by 2 or
more, so Tullius claims they gave too much away. The Stormcloaks depart, since
they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states that the loss of his
side's major hold, Markarth, is a heavy price to pay, since it was mandatory
that it be lost in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
The process is different, but the result is the same. This route has the
advantage of not annoying one of the sides after the demand and counter demand.
The next example demonstrates a situation where no concessions are available to
the concessioning side, when one side has 1 minor hold instead of the usual 2:
_____________________________________________________________________________
/ \
Variables:
Dragonborn side: Stormcloak
Whiterun: Stormcloak
Imperial Major/Minor holds: 1/1
Stormcloak Major/Minor holds: 1/2
Decisions:
Thalmor: Leave
Counter-Demand: Minor
Concession 1: -
Concession 2: -
Both scales start out at 0-0, and remain equal throughout the negotiation.
Ulfric asks what the Dragonborn thinks about the Thalmor's presence, since the
Dragonborn is on his side. The Dragonborn decides the Thalmor should leave,
favoring the Stormcloaks, and the score goes to 0-1. Before negotiations can
start, the Imperials are the ones to say that they are only here to assist the
Dragonborn, since the Dragonborn opposes them. Arrngeir's opening addresses
Tullius first, since the Dragonborn opposes him.
The Imperials make the opening demand for the Stormcloaks' major hold, since
the Dragonborn opposes them. In return, the Dragonborn gives the Stormcloaks a
minor hold of the Imperials'. The Imperials get 2 points for acquiring a major
hold, and the Stormcloaks get 1 point for acquiring a minor hold. The Imperials
now have no minor holds left. The score advances to 2-2, balanced.
Since the score is balanced, the counter demanding side, the Stormcloaks, are
the ones to be unhappy with the deal so far, and will eventually go into
concessions. Since the score does not dis-favor them, the Stormcloaks don't
blame the Dragonborn for their actions. They then proceed to moan until Esbern
interrupts.
When Esbern finishes, there is no quip from Elenwen, since the Thalmor have
left. The Stormcloaks then begin demanding concessions.
However, no concessions are available, since the Imperials have no minor holds
left, so they give up. They say they'll place "the greater good" above their
own interests, despite the fact the negotiation concludes with a balanced score
of 2-2.
Arrngeir reviews the terms. The Stormcloaks are satisfied, since the score does
not favor the Imperials, and the Imperials are satisfied, since the score does
not favor the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn's side is not favored but does not
trail by 2 or more points, so Ulfric says they gave too much away. The
Imperials depart, since they do not own Whiterun. The Jarl of Whiterun states </pre><pre id="faqspan-3">
that the loss of his side's major hold, Riften, is a heavy price to pay, since
it was mandatory that it be lost in the negotiation.
\_____________________________________________________________________________/
Another oddity here is that the Stormcloaks complain about the deal when they
don't get the concessions they want, yet are then satisfied with the deal when
it comes to agreeing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
/ /
/ Brash Assumptions /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~B
This is where I put the ramblings of some of my own theories about the
negotiation.
The Imperial Massacre
Does this even exist? Do the Stormcloaks ever demand compensation for a
massacre by the Imperials? We've all heard of the Stormcloak massacre at
Karthwasten, but what about others? In all my playthroughs, this is the only
one I've seen. Consequently, I've never heard Ulfric's second concession
granted/denied remark, as the Stormcloaks have no more than 1 concession
available. I've heard hints and suggestions that other massacres exist, but
I've never seen anything solid, so I'm wondering if this is an urban myth, or
perhaps something that only occurs with an add-on or extension of some sort.
Minor Hold Concessions
Only 1 minor hold concession seems to be demanded, even if there are 2
available on the counter demanding side and no massacre concession is
available. For example... The Dragonborn is neutral, so the Stormcloaks demand
a major hold. We side with the Imperials for the first two decisions, leaving
the Imperials ahead by 1 point. The Stormcloaks then go into concessions and
demand one of the Imperials' 2 minor holds, neither of which has been
considered so far in the negotiation. This is denied. Rather than try demanding
a second concession in the form of the Imperials' other minor hold, the
Stormcloaks give in. The exact minor hold demanded in concessions, along with
the counter demand, does vary; it is not fixed, but it does seem to depend on
whether the Dragonborn has picked a side or not.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
/ /
/ FAQ /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~Q
- What version of the game did you use?
The 360 version, with the update, no add-ons.
- How do I start a negotiation where one side only has their base hold left?
During the battle for the fort of the last hold of a side before their base
hold, simply run off and don't let the battle complete. You'll be able to pull
both sides along to the negotiation, and once both agree to attend, the mission
will automatically complete, and your side will gain the hold. Going from
memory, if you allow the battle to complete, gain the hold, and then try to get
your side to come, the option won't be there.
- I can't get Ulfric/Tullius to come to the negotiation!
Hmm... Not really the subject of this guide, but all right. You need to advance
the civil war questline a bit. At certain points in that questline the option
will not be available; this is by design to avoid glitches. Just play through
the civil war questline for a bit, and it'll soon become available. Or you'll
finish the questline and the negotiation will be cancelled :P.
- The Jarl of Whiterun is always unhappy after the negotiation! How can I make
him pleased?
You can't. The Whiterun Jarl's response is determined by factors entirely
outside the negotiation. Nothing you do in the negotiation will change his
remark. The only way to change his remark is to either side with the
Stormcloaks but not take Whiterun, or advance the civil war questline until one
side has no holds left for bargaining.
- Why do guides like these always stick to boring ASCII characters, and never
take advantage of the plethora of vibrant characters offered by the now well-
established Unicode standard?
Yes, I am aware I could do things like
┌────── make better horizontal
│ and vertical borders,
â–‘â–’â–“use shading,â–“â–’â–‘
â‘¢ have
â— fancy
â—‡ bullet
â—‘ points,
“use decent double quotesâ€, have a proper copyright © symbol,
↱ point to ⇄ all sorts of things ⇠and mark them to be of interest ⌘,
and generally ℠have access to ° a variety of ✳ useful punctuation,
but the GameFAQs guidelines recommend ASCII characters only, citing the ideal
of portability across all devices. Unusual characters aside, even though all
Web-capable devices nowadays ought to be supporting Unicode along with a
healthy amount of popular characters, I can sympathize with their argument.
Well, to an extent…
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
/ /
/ Contact /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/ ~C
If you've come across a particular negotiation or sequence of events that seems
to contradict the explanation in this guide, or you've found some evidence for
or against one of my ramblings in the "Brash Assumptions" section, you can
contact me if you like.
However, don't expect a quick response; I don't check messages nearly as much
as most others. Additionally any changes to this guide suggested are made
entirely at my discretion; if it's just a minor thing or the evidence cited is
sketchy, I may leave it, or "eventually" get around to an update of some sort.
If you're contacting me regarding something you've experienced in a particular
negotiation, I'll need the following details so that I can try to reproduce it
my end, and see the results for myself:
- Whose side you are on in the civil war questline, or if you haven't joined a
side
- If you've sided with the Stormcloaks, whether or not you've taken Whiterun
yet
- If you've taken a side, whether or not you've taken the opposition's major
hold yet, either Rift/Riften or Reach/Markarth
- If you've taken a side, how many of the opposition's minor holds you've taken
- The choices you made in the negotiation, which include the Thalmor decision,
the counter demand decision, and the decisions for each concession demanded
To determine if you've taken a hold or not, aside checking the quest history
you can go to that hold's capitol and see if the Jarl has changed from the
default. If the Jarl of the hold has changed, you've taken the hold.
Also, make sure you haven't made a mistake. In particular, make sure you've
taken what holds you think you've taken; it's possible you may seem to have
taken a hold when actually you haven't, in which case you need to advance the
civil war questline a bit. You can contact me through the GameFAQs PM system,
egg_meister.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
/ /
/ Version History /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/
. . meh.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
/ /
/ Copyright /
/ /
/ /
/________________________________________________________________________/
I don't know why people fuss over this so much. On the one hand this is the
Web, an open forum where copying and redistributing is commonplace, and on the
other basic protection terms are implied anyway. I could say that no one is
allowed to have more than one copy of this guide, but what would be the point?
I wouldn't know about it, let alone be able to do anything about it.
The only thing I do ask is that I be given credit where due, and likewise that
this guide is not plagiarized.
Otherwise, do what and redistribute how you like. If you want to saturate your
hard drive with thousands of copies of this guide in worship, go right ahead.
If you want to print out endless copies of this guide and use it as toilet
paper, go right ahead. Nobody's going to stop you. Except perhaps the HSE.
"Congratulations. You've found the Bards' College kitchen."
