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From: Eli Marmor <[email protected]>
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Shachar Shemesh wrote:

> �� DMCA:
>
> http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html - � ��

�� , �� -��, ��
�� , �� "� ��
�� , �� - ��
� �� "� �� .

--
Eli Marmor
[email protected]
Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd.
__________________________________________________________
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 09:40:23 2006
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--------------040200080703020905000502
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1255
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

�� ,

�� (ynet, ��), �� , ��
�� -DMCA. ��
�� , ��
�� , �� , �� .

�� (��) �� . �� , ��
�� .

��,

��

��:

��:

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contrassID=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11

http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html

�� :

http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf

�� :

http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/

http://www.eff.org/

�� DMCA:

http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html - � ��

--------------040200080703020905000502
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1255
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=windows-1255"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body dir="ltr" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
��
��,
 

��
�� (ynet, ��), �� , ��
�� -DMCA. ��
�� , ��
�� , �� , �� .
 

�� (��)
�� . �� , ��
�� .
 

��,
��
 

��:
��:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html">http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contrassID=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11">http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contrassID=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html">http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html</a>
 

��
��:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf">http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf</a>
 

��
��:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/">http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eff.org/">http://www.eff.org/</a>
 

��
�� DMCA: 

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html">http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html</a>
- � �� 

</body>
</html>

--------------040200080703020905000502--

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 10:10:41 2006
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From: Shlomi Fish <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: DMCA =?utf-8?b?15HXkNeo16UgLSDXoteW16jXqg==?= =?utf-8?b?INeU16bXmdeR15XXqA==?=
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ראוי לציין שפתחתי דף בויקי שמרכז את כל החומר על ההצעה:

http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law

בכבוד רב,

שלומי פיש

On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:16, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> שלום לחברי העמותה,
>
>
> כמו שנכתב במספר מקורות (ynet, הארץ), ודווח לראשונה באתר של הלמו, הוגשה
> הצעת חוק המזכירה מאוד חלקים מה-DMCA. זוהי קריאה לאנשים לעבור על הצעת
> החוק ועל האתרים שמנסים להלחם בהם, ולנסות למצוא את הדרכים הנכונות כדי
> להלחם בהצעה הספציפית הזו, ומה שיותר חשוב, בדומותיה שצפויות לבוא.
>
>
> אנחנו (הועד) מנסים לארגן מסמך ראשוני. הוא יפורסם כאן, ואנחנו ננסה לשפר
> אותו עד לרמה שבה הוא יהיה הכי אפקטיבי שאפשר.
>
>
> בתודה,
>
> שחר
>
>
> קישורים:
>
> דיווחים:
>
> http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html
>
> http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contrassI
>D=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11
>
> http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html
>
>
> הצעת החוק עצמה:
>
> http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf
>
>
> אתרים המנסים להלחם:
>
> http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/
>
> http://www.eff.org/
>
>
> אתרים שניסו להשתיק באמצעות DMCA:
>
> http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html - אתר נגד הכת הסינטולוגית

--

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Shlomi Fish [email protected]
Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 10:20:17 2006
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לפני ששלחתי את המייל הנזעם לכל חברי מרצ, רציתי לבדוק טיפה באתר הכנסת את מצבו
של החוק. והפלא ופלא, הוא לא מופיע ברשימת הצעות החוק הפרטיות. אחרי הצעה 1127,
תיקון לחוק המים של אחמד טיבי, מופיעה 1129, תיקון לחוק שעות עבודה ומנוחה של
יעקב מרגי. 1128, כפי שמופיע במסמך ששחר קישר אליו, יוק.

אז למרות שצריך לוודא שחברי כנסת מודעים לנושאים, ולדאוג שלא יחקקו חוקים מופרכים
כאלה -- והגרסה שם באמת מופרכת, היא הופכת כל גלישה באינטרנט להפרת זכויות
יוצרים, שלא לדבר על ייצור דפדפנים -- יכול להיות שאת הקרב הקטן הזה כבר ניצחנו?

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 10:32:32 2006
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 10:40:18 2006
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To: Shai Berger <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: DMCA =?windows-1255?Q?=E1=E0=F8=F5_-_=F2=E6=F8=FA_=E4=F6?=
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Shai Berger wrote:

> �� , ��
> �� . �� , �� . �� 1127,
> �� , �� 1129, ��
> �� . 1128, �� , ��.
>
> �� , ��
> �� -- �� , ��
> ��, �� -- �� ?
>
��

� ��, ��, ��?

��

--------------040100080702040509060306
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=windows-1255"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body dir="rtl" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Shai Berger
wrote: 

<blockquote dir="rtl" cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">�� , ��
�� . �� , �� . �� 1127,
�� , �� 1129, ��
�� . 1128, �� , ��.

�� , ��
�� -- �� , ��
��, �� -- �� ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
�� 
 
� ��, ��, ��? 
 
�� 
</body>
</html>

--------------040100080702040509060306--

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 10:48:44 2006
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On Thursday, August 17 2006 13:40, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> Shai Berger wrote:
>
> יש לך, במקרה, קישור?

רשימת הצעות החוק הפרטיות: http://knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/plaw_display.asp

לפחות בשועל שלי, החיפוש לא עובד, כך שצריך פשוט לדפדף איזה עשרה או חמישה-עשר
עמודים עד שמגיעים לאזור.

שלחתי בכל-זאת מכתב לח"כים, ששואל אם הם משכו את ההצעה. הם בטח לא יענו היום, כי
אחרי 400 תגובות ב-ynet, בטח מציקים להם מספיק בעניין הזה.

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 10:51:16 2006
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שלום לכולם.

לפני שיוצאים לקרב, כדאי לבחור באילו תחומים אנחנו נלחמים.
רוב הצעת החוק עוסקת באכיפת חוקי זכויות יוצרים על מדיות דיגיטאליות (הברה:
אין לי שום הכשרה משפטית...).
חוק "זכויות יוצרים" קיים כבר זמן רב, ואם עד היום התחום הדיגיטאלי היה
"אפור" (במקרה הטוב), ומי שרצה יכול היה להוריד שירים וסרטים בלי להיענש,
הצעת החוק הנ"ל באה לשים סוף להפקרות הזאת. מי שרוצה להילחם באכיפת החוק
(הקיים) על התחום הדיגיטאלי - לדעתי מבזבז את זמנו וגם יפסיד.

אם הבעיה שלנו היא חוק "זכויות היוצרים" - צריך להיאבק בו ולא בהצעת החוק
הנ"ל, שרק מוסיפה התייחסות ספציפית ליצירה דיגיטאלית (וחשוב מאוד להזכיר:
רשיון ה-GPL מתבסס על קיום חוק זכויות יוצרים - ואתם ממש לא רוצים לערער את
החוק הזה).

מונחי "היצירה", "יוצר", "הצגה", "העתקה", "העלאה", "מפיק" וכו' מוגדרים
באופן סביר (עד כמה שחוסר ההכשרה המשפטית שלי מסוגל להבין).

שתי החזיתות שצריך להילחם בהן (לעניות דעתי), הן התחומים שמוגדרים רע מאוד,
או לא מוגדרים בכלל:
1. הגבלות *טכנולוגיות* על תוכנות, ספקי שירות, וכו' (עד מצב אבסודרי של
ה-DCMA האמריקאי שאוסר לפרסם כיצד לעקוף הגנות).
2. הגבלות על זכויות הפרט, ובעיקר כל נושא "השימוש ההוגן" או "השימוש הסביר".
לדוגמא: באילו מקרים מותר וסביר להעתיק יצירה דיגיטלית (לשימוש עצמי וכו').
המצב בארה"ב מגביל מאוד את זכויות הפרט, ולדעתי כיוון טוב להילחם בו הוא
להבהיר שלמרות שליצורים מגיעות הרבה זכויות על יצירתם, עדיין לארזח מגיעות
לא פחות זכויות, ואסור להגביל אותן.

לגבי החזית הראשונה - כדאי לפנות לארגונים שלדעתנו יפגעו מהחוק הנ"ל (כגון
ספקי שירות, יצרניות תוכנה וכו') - להסביר להם מה החוק אומר, ולבקש מהם
התייחסות רשמית.

לגבי החזית השניה - כדאי לפנות לארגונים התומכים בזכויות הפרט (ודרך אגב,
מר'צ היא ממש לא גוף שמגן על זכויות הפרט - בעוד שגישתם המדינית היא
"שמאלנית", גישתם הכלכלית/חברתית היא מאוד "ימנית", ולכן כמובן הם תומכים
בהצעת חוק כזו).

אולי באופן מפתיע, אחד הגופים החברתיים הפעילים היא תנועת הנוער העובד
והלומד, ואני אנסה לבקש מהם איזשהי התייחסות.

בברכה,
אסף גורדון.

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 11:31:41 2006
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 11:43:51 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:22:42 +0300
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To: Shai Berger <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: DMCA =?windows-1255?Q?=E1=E0=F8=F5_-_=F2=E6=F8=FA_=E4=F6?=
=?windows-1255?Q?=E9=E1=E5=F8?=
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Shai Berger wrote:

> On Thursday, August 17 2006 13:40, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
>> Shai Berger wrote:
>>
>> � ��, ��, ��?
>>
>
> �� : http://knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/plaw_display.asp
>
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>
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��

--------------040404090005070804060808
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=windows-1255"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<body dir="rtl" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Shai Berger
wrote: 

<blockquote dir="rtl" cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">On Thursday, August 17 2006 13:40, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote dir="rtl" type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">Shai Berger wrote:

� ��, ��, ��?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">
�� : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/plaw_display.asp">http://knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/plaw_display.asp</a>

�� , �� , �� -�
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<blockquote dir="rtl" cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
�� . �� . 
 
�� 
</body>
</html>

--------------040404090005070804060808--

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 11:54:07 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:53:43 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: E L <[email protected]>
Cc: Assaf Gordon <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?15HXkNeo16UgLSDX?=
=?iso-8859-8-i?B?oteW16jXqiDXlNem15nXkdeV16g=?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, E L wrote about "Re: DMCA ??�� - �?�� ?�???�":
> ��
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--
Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Aug 17 2006, 23 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |This '|' is not a pipe.
http://nadav.harel.org.il |

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 12:39:08 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:38:36 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: E L <[email protected]>
Cc: Assaf Gordon <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?77+9wpHvv73CkO+/?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, E L wrote about "Re: DMCA ��?��?�¨�¥ - �¢��?�¨��? ��?�¦��?��?��?�¨":
> Yes, exactly, it will make it right to download and share music.
> More people will share music, people who doesn't have money now to buy
> ultra expensive cds will be able to get songs and TV shows for their kids.
> Is that wrong? More publicity to the owner of the copyright, less money is
> wasted on distributions and more new bands can sends their songs to the net
> and make money out of it without selling their souls to the record
> companies.
> How about it? I'm sure you didn't think about that it might actualy support
> culture in israel right?

Let's imagine your scheme works. I pay 10 shekels a month and I can copy all
the songs I want for free. Now, who decides how the 10 shekels get divided
to the copyright owners? Does it go only to Israeli copyright holders or
also abroad? And who decides that I should pay 10 shekels, or perhaps it
should be 100 shekels a month? or maybe 1000 shekels?

In short, your suggestion is basically a "all you can listen to" music
buffet. But instead of suggesting that this is a service that companies
should sell (like IPOD, but a all-you-can-listen-to plan), and that the
free market determines its price, you suggest that it's a thing that the
government should maintain such a plan, define and collect its costs. Why?
I see no sense in this.

> advantages, of course nothing is perfect, you also pay tax now about empty
> cds you buy, I don't see you go and complain about it. And of course there

I pay 76 agorot per blank CD. This is so low, that I seriously doubt this
includes any special "piracy" tax. Are you sure there's such a tax in Israel?

> The poor person you talked about above who doesn't have any money, probably
> doesn't have money to go to concert or hardly any money to buy cds, now all
> the sudden for not so high sum he can expuse his kids to culture variaty he
> haven't seen before.

Eli, have you ever listened to the... Radio?
This is how I was exposed to music when I was a kid. We couldn't afford
buying cassettes, and listened to music on the radio and recorded songs
from the radio on cassettes.
Radio is already partially funded by your taxes. I don't see the need to
pay more taxes to give more money to the music industry. They are already
getting enough of our taxes exactly for this purpose: to give the general
population a legal way to listen to music.

> Note also that this will also make it easier for intrenet radio station to
> brodcast something that can become very complicated now as they need to go
> company company and ask permission, while if there was a way to distributed
> money between copyright owner they could use it instead.

I don't see why internet radio should have to pay tamlugim any differently
from regular radio. If they do, akum is at fault, not the lack of laws or
taxes.

--
Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Aug 17 2006, 23 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get
http://nadav.harel.org.il |eight cats to pull a sled through snow.

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=EE=F6=F4=E4 =EC=FA=E2=E5=E1=FA=EB=ED,
=E0=EC=E5=EF =E0=EC=E8=EE=EF

[1] http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf
[2] http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf
[3] http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/?f=3Dunintended_consequences.html

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 13:00:32 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:55:14 +0300
From: Eran Tromer <[email protected]>
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To: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
CC: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?ISO-8859-8-I?Q?=EF=3F=BD=3F=3F=EF=3F=BD=3F=3F=EF=3F=BD?=
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Hi,

On 2006-08-17 15:38, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, E L wrote
[snip]
> In short, your suggestion is basically a "all you can listen to" music
> buffet. But instead of suggesting that this is a service that companies
> should sell (like IPOD, but a all-you-can-listen-to plan), and that the
> free market determines its price, you suggest that it's a thing that the
> government should maintain such a plan, define and collect its costs. Why?
> I see no sense in this.

There's a big difference:

A "buffet" is organized by the free market is necessarily based on the
exclusion from service of people who didn't pay for it. So it requires
legal and technological limitations on distribution of copyrighted
works, and these limitations have a huge impact in limiting people's
rights and actions.

Conversely, if the "buffet" is organized by the government and payment
is mandatory, then you can abolish copyright and let everyone copy and
create derivative works as they wish -- a huge social and economical
benefit.

This is not to say that there aren't some deep problems with flat-rate
licensing, especially when it comes to distributing the revenue.

>> The poor person you talked about above who doesn't have any money, probably
>> doesn't have money to go to concert or hardly any money to buy cds, now all
>> the sudden for not so high sum he can expuse his kids to culture variaty he
>> haven't seen before.
>
> Eli, have you ever listened to the... Radio?

Have *you*? Did you hear any of the cultural variety Eli is seeking?,
With few exceptions, Israeli radio is 30% advertisement for junk and
70% advertisement for ringtones.

Eran

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 13:17:59 2006
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 13:20:56 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:20:08 +0200
From: "Nadav Vinik" <[email protected]>
To: "Assaf Gordon" <[email protected]>
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6INeU16bXoteUINec16TXoteZ15zXlQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?16og16nXnCDXotee15XXqteqINeU157Xp9eV16g=?=
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איך אתה רוצה שמפגש כזה התנהל?
קצת קשה לי לראות איך זה הופך למשהו קהילתי.
האם זה יהיה בחדר מחשבים שכל אחד מתרגם משהו?
במה זה שונה מתרגום בבית מלבד עליית המודעות.

2006/8/17, Assaf Gordon <[email protected]>:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> שלום,
>
> לאחרונה דובר (ברשימת התפוצה) על כך שהעמותה "צריכה" לערוך יותר פעילויות.
>
> ברצוני להציע רעיון לפעילות: "מסיבתרגום" -
> ערב (או בוקר) שבו נכנס יחדיו, ונעזור למאמץ התרגום של תוכנות לעברית.
> לא מדובר בתכנות, אלא בעיקר בתרגום ובנאום של קובצי ה-po של פרוייקטים שונים.
>
> שי שריד הכין רשימה של לומדות שזקוקות לתרגום
> (http://www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html), ואני בטוח שיש עוד הרבה תוכנות
> שימושיות שזקוקות לתרגום לעברית.
>
> אני אשמח לנסות לארגן כזה מפגש, בהנחה שתהיה תמיכה של עמותת המקור (תמיכה
> כספית, בעיקר).
>
> לשם הבהרה, כזה מפגש לא יהיה רווחי, ואפילו לא יכסה עלויות. לא יהיו בו
> נותני חסויות, או אפילו דמי כניסה.
>
> האם לדעתכם יש טעם במפגש כזה ? כמה מכם יסכימו לבוא ולעזור ?
>
>
> אסף.
>
>
>
>
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> =4pM8
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 13:24:24 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:24:03 +0300
From: "E L" <[email protected]>
To: "Nadav Vinik" <[email protected]>
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6INeU16bXoteUINec16TXoteZ15zXlQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?16og16nXnCDXotee15XXqteqINeU157Xp9eV16g=?=
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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שלום,

לאחרונה דובר (ברשימת התפוצה) על כך שהעמותה "צריכה" לערוך יותר פעילויות.

ברצוני להציע רעיון לפעילות: "מסיבתרגום" -
ערב (או בוקר) שבו נכנס יחדיו, ונעזור למאמץ התרגום של תוכנות לעברית.
לא מדובר בתכנות, אלא בעיקר בתרגום ובנאום של קובצי ה-po של פרוייקטים שונים.

שי שריד הכין רשימה של לומדות שזקוקות לתרגום
(http://www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html), ואני בטוח שיש עוד הרבה תוכנות
שימושיות שזקוקות לתרגום לעברית.

אני אשמח לנסות לארגן כזה מפגש, בהנחה שתהיה תמיכה של עמותת המקור (תמיכה
כספית, בעיקר).

לשם הבהרה, כזה מפגש לא יהיה רווחי, ואפילו לא יכסה עלויות. לא יהיו בו
נותני חסויות, או אפילו דמי כניסה.

האם לדעתכם יש טעם במפגש כזה ? כמה מכם יסכימו לבוא ולעזור ?

אסף.

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 13:47:14 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:46:06 +0300
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To: Nadav Vinik <[email protected]>
CC: Hamakor <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?B?15TXptei15Qg15zXpNei15nXnNeV16og16nXnCDXotee15XXqteq?=
=?UTF-8?B?INeU157Xp9eV16g=?=
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Nadav Vinik wrote:
> איך אתה רוצה שמפגש כזה התנהל?

אני מדמיין קבוצות קטנות של אנשים, שיושבים ביחד ומתרגמים תוכנה מסויימת.
מלאכת התרגום היא לא קשה, היא רק סיזיפית ואולי קצת משעממת. הישיבה בחברותא
תעזור "לרוץ" עם התרגום, ותהפוך את התהליך להרבה יותר מהנה.

> קצת קשה לי לראות איך זה הופך למשהו קהילתי.

זה יהפוך לאירוע קהילתי אם אנשים מהקהילה יתגייסו, יגיעו וישתפו פעולה.
אם אף אחד לא יגיע ואנשים יחשבו שזה "לא חשוב", "לא מעניין" או כל "לא" אחר
- זה לא יהפוך לשום דבר קהילתי.

> האם זה יהיה בחדר מחשבים שכל אחד מתרגם משהו?

כדי לצמצם עלויות (אני מזכיר שאני לא מתכוון ל"כנס" ענק, אלא למפגש קטן),
אני חושב שאנשים יכולים להביא את המחשב הנייד שלהם (למי שיש), וכל קבוצה
צריכה מחשב אחד, לא יותר.
המקום שבו יערך המפגש יספק חשמל, רשת, ואולי חיבור לאינטרנט.

> במה זה שונה מתרגום בבית מלבד עליית המודעות.

לדעתי כל דבר שעושים בחברה שונה מעשייתו לבד בבית.
עובדה שאין כ"כ הרבה אנשים שיושבים להם בית לבד ומחליטים על דעת עצמם לתרגם
תוכנה (יש כאלו, אני לא מכחיש, אבל לא רבים).
עליית המודעות תביא למאמץ מרוכז, והתנדבות של אנשים שללא תמריץ חברתי שכזה
לא יתרגמו בעצמם בבית שום דבר.

באופן דומה, אפשר לשאול מדוע יש "מסיבות התקנה" (installfests). אם מישהו
כ"כ רוצה לינוקס עד כדי כך שהוא לוקח את המחשב שלו (ולפעמים זה מחשב נייח)
למסיבה כזו כדי שיתקינו לו לינוקס - האם לא יותר פשוט שהוא יוריד ISO
ויתקין לעצמו "לבד בבית" ? כנראה שלא - לפעמים הוא לא יודע איך מתקינים
(בדיוק כמו שיש אנשים שלא יודעים כיצד מתרגמים קובצי PO), ולפעמים זה פשוט
יותר נחמד לעשות את זה עם עוד אנשים.

אסף.

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Organization: Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd.
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To: Assaf Gordon <[email protected]>
CC: Hamakor <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: =?windows-1255?Q?=E4=F6=F2=E4_=EC=F4=F2=E9=EC=E5=FA_=F9=EC?=
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Assaf Gordon wrote:
> ��,
>
�� ,

�� , ��
�� , ��
�� , �� ,
�� .
> �� : "��" -
> �� (�� ) �� , �� .
>
�� . �� -bug squashing party �� .
> �� , �� -po �� .
>
> ��
> (http://www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html), ��
> �� .
>
> �� , �� (��
> ��, ��).
>
��, ��, �� . �� , � ��
��
�� . �� , �� . ��
�� .
> �� , �� , �� . ��
> �� , �� .
>
��. �� , �� .
> �� ? �� ?
>
�� , �� , �� :-)

��, �� . �� .
> ��
��

--------------030407000007060306030305
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1255
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=windows-1255"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body dir="rtl" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Assaf Gordon wrote: 
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">��,
</pre>
</blockquote>
�� , 
 
�� , ��
�� , ��
�� , �� ,
�� . 
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
�� : "��" -
�� (�� ) �� , �� .
</pre>
</blockquote>
�� . �� -bug squashing party �� . 
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">�� , �� -po �� .

��
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html">http://www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html</a>), ��
�� .

�� , �� (��
��, ��).
</pre>
</blockquote>
��, ��, �� . �� , � ��
��
�� . �� , �� . ��
�� . 
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">�� , �� , �� . ��
�� , �� .
</pre>
</blockquote>
��. �� , �� . 
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
�� ? �� ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
�� , �� , �� :-) 
 
��, �� . �� . 
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">��</pre>
</blockquote>
�� 
</body>
</html>

--------------030407000007060306030305--

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On Thursday, August 17 2006 13:51, Assaf Gordon wrote:
> שלום לכולם.
>
> לפני שיוצאים לקרב, כדאי לבחור באילו תחומים אנחנו נלחמים.
> רוב הצעת החוק עוסקת באכיפת חוקי זכויות יוצרים על מדיות דיגיטאליות (הברה:
> אין לי שום הכשרה משפטית...).
> חוק "זכויות יוצרים" קיים כבר זמן רב, ואם עד היום התחום הדיגיטאלי היה
> "אפור" (במקרה הטוב), ומי שרצה יכול היה להוריד שירים וסרטים בלי להיענש,
> הצעת החוק הנ"ל באה לשים סוף להפקרות הזאת. מי שרוצה להילחם באכיפת החוק
> (הקיים) על התחום הדיגיטאלי - לדעתי מבזבז את זמנו וגם יפסיד.

לא, אסף, אתה טועה. הצעת החוק חורגת רחוק מאד מעבר לחוק הקיים בשני נושאים
חשובים:

1) הטלת אחריות על המוריד, ודרישה ממנו להשיג הסכמה מפורשת מבעל הזכויות. כיום,
מספיקה ההסכמה הנרמזת (implied) מזה שבעל הזכויות העלה בעצמו את התוכן לרשת. זה
הופך כל גלישה שלך ל-ynet, למשל, להפרת זכויות יוצרים, אלא אם יש לך איזה הסכם
מפורש אתם. ברור לי שלא זו כוונת המשורר, אבל זה מה שכתוב שם.

2) אחריות דומה על מי שמספק אמצעים להורדה והעלאה -- וזה, כמו שכבר העירו גולשים
ב-ynet, כולל גם לקוח ftp או דפדפן. זה אפילו לא נושא של תוכנה חופשית -- לפי
ההצעה הזו, אם מיקרוסופט מציעה לציבור את explorer, היא מפירה זכויות יוצרים.
>

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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:45:15 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: Eran Tromer <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?7z+9Pz/vP70/P+8/?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, Eran Tromer wrote about "Re: DMCA �?�??�?�??�?�?��?�?� - �?�?��?�??�?�?��?�?? �?�??�?�?�???????�":
> A "buffet" is organized by the free market is necessarily based on the
> exclusion from service of people who didn't pay for it. So it requires
> legal and technological limitations on distribution of copyrighted
> works, and these limitations have a huge impact in limiting people's
> rights and actions.

I don't understand how you and Ely can hold this belief while an example
of something very similar hangs like a shadow over us - the Israeli "agra".

The Agra is a buffet of (some say crappy) TV and radio stations which you
have to pay for, whether you want to or not. I have been to countries
where there is no Agra, and you know what? People there don't have less
radio or tv rights, and there are free radio and tv stations over there
too - some are even better than the ones we get for our Agra.
And all the while, here in Israel, with the wonderful government-enforced
buffet of tv and radio, we're seeing exactly what you wanted to prevent -
"huge impact in limiting people's rights and actions": the government is
forcing even poor people to pay (it is not a regressive tax), is spying on
your TV buying habits, marriages and similar things, arguing with citizens
whether device X "is a TV" or not, sending threatening letters and sending
collectors to collect these debts by force. Do you like this approach?
Would you like to see it in other walks of life, such as the Internet?
I don't.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a rabid capitalist that loves privitazation -
far from it. But I don't like the government to start new *businesses* -
i.e., things that have dedicated income - they sell services and citizens
pay for them directly. If the government needs more money to provide us
services it needs to increase the existing taxes (mas hachnasa and VAT),
not to start new initiatives and charge for them (which in essense, is
creating a business). If a business needs to be created, anyone can create
it, and we don't need the government, with its virtually infinite
enforcement power, to create businesses and force them down our throat.

If the government wants to abolish copyright, fine. Let's try that. They
tried it in the USSR, and as far as I hear it wasn't a disaster (but
maybe someone else here has personal experience). If the government wants
to finance the arts with the taxes we pay, fine (it already does this to
a small degree). But make a mish-mash out of all of this together, and
invent a new tax and a new beaurocracy that replaces the copyright law?

> Conversely, if the "buffet" is organized by the government and payment
> is mandatory, then you can abolish copyright and let everyone copy and
> create derivative works as they wish -- a huge social and economical
> benefit.

What you're describing sounds like no copyright at all, period. Yes, the
government is pretending to be charging N shekels a year for replacing
the copyright scheme, but an individual creators do not have any rights
or any recourse if they don't think they are getting enough of this money.

By the way, since the government is only collecting money here for others,
and not using the money directly, what incentive do they have to maintain
a sane amount? If one year the sum is N shekels a year, and there are
elections the next year, what prevents the candidate from proposing to
halve this sum next year? After all, he won't have to stay within budget -
he'll just halve the payments to the creators...

> Have *you*? Did you hear any of the cultural variety Eli is seeking?,
> With few exceptions, Israeli radio is 30% advertisement for junk and
> 70% advertisement for ringtones.

If you want to pay, you can get (e.g., in cable) ad-free radio stations
with a wide variety of musical generes. But if you don't want to pay, or
can't pay, you can still listen to music, albeit with less variaty and with
advertisements.

--
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[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The meek shall inherit the Earth, for
http://nadav.harel.org.il |they are too timid to refuse it.

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From: Shlomi Fish <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Increasing Existing Taxes [was Re: DMCA ]
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:27:16 +0300
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On Thursday 17 August 2006 17:45, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, Eran Tromer wrote about "Re: DMCA �?�??�?�??�?�?��?�?
� - �?�?��?�??�?�?��?�?? �?�??�?�?�???????�":
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not a rabid capitalist that loves privitazation -
> far from it. But I don't like the government to start new *businesses* -
> i.e., things that have dedicated income - they sell services and citizens
> pay for them directly. If the government needs more money to provide us
> services it needs to increase the existing taxes (mas hachnasa and VAT),
> not to start new initiatives and charge for them (which in essense, is
> creating a business). If a business needs to be created, anyone can create
> it, and we don't need the government, with its virtually infinite
> enforcement power, to create businesses and force them down our throat.
>

Just a few notes.

Decreasing taxes will mean more money to the government. This is because:

1. Less people will avoid paying their taxes.

2. Lower taxes mean a more prosperous economy which in turn will mean more
taxes.

I personally think that the income tax in Israel is outrageous and need not be
further increased.

Furthermore, there is a lot of government waste in Israel and elsewhere, and
taking it out of the budget for good will be a Good Thing<tm>.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

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Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

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destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Assaf Gordon wrote:
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 16:00:57 2006
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On 2006-08-17 17:45, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, Eran Tromer wrote about "Re: DMCA �?�??�?�??�?�?��?�?� - �?�?��?�??�?�?��?�?? �?�??�?�?�???????�":
>> A "buffet" is organized by the free market is necessarily based on the
>> exclusion from service of people who didn't pay for it. So it requires
>> legal and technological limitations on distribution of copyrighted
>> works, and these limitations have a huge impact in limiting people's
>> rights and actions.
>
> I don't understand how you and Ely can hold this belief

The belief that the above paragraph is correct?
It's fairly obvious, and you've said nothing to contradict it.

> "huge impact in limiting people's rights and actions": the government is
> forcing even poor people to pay (it is not a regressive tax), is spying on
> your TV buying habits, marriages and similar things, arguing with citizens
> whether device X "is a TV" or not, sending threatening letters and sending
> collectors to collect these debts by force.

Those are completely different limitations. In principle, you might as
well take a 1% "content tax" out of normal income tax; no extra probing
and collectors needed.

Anyway, I think it would be a *very* good deal to get a debt collection
letter twice a year and someone noticing I'm married if, in exchange, I
get all the world's content to use it as I wish.

> If a business needs to be created, anyone can create
> it, and we don't need the government, with its virtually infinite
> enforcement power, to create businesses and force them down our throat.

You're ignoring my argument about the government is the only body in
position to create such a business without restricting people's freedom
and creativity by instating copyright laws and employing DRM.

> If the government wants to abolish copyright, fine. Let's try that. They
> tried it in the USSR, and as far as I hear it wasn't a disaster

You mean the USSR had no copyrights but an alternative mechanism to
fairly compensate authors based on the the citizens' preference and
consumption habits? Fascinating, can you tell me more?

>> Conversely, if the "buffet" is organized by the government and payment
>> is mandatory, then you can abolish copyright and let everyone copy and
>> create derivative works as they wish -- a huge social and economical
>> benefit.
>
> What you're describing sounds like no copyright at all, period.

Of course, that's my point.

> Yes, the
> government is pretending to be charging N shekels a year for replacing
> the copyright scheme, but an individual creators do not have any rights
> or any recourse if they don't think they are getting enough of this money.

*That* would be a bad idea indeed. There has to be a mechanism for fair
distribution of the collected money -- again, based on the the citizens'
preference and consumption habits. This is obviously the hard (and
perhaps infeasible) part of this approach. But imagine the consequences
if we came up with a a nice, fair way to do it!

Just to clarify: I'm not advocating any such plan, because I don't have
a full proposal or anything remotely like it. But I do think it's
important to recognize the drawbacks of the copyright regime and that
alternatives are imaginable and perhaps superior. It keeps us in
perspective about our real goals, as a legislating society.

> By the way, since the government is only collecting money here for others,
> and not using the money directly, what incentive do they have to maintain
> a sane amount?

The same thing that keeps the government from weakening copyright laws
(or rather, makes the government strengthen those laws at a staggering
rate) right now.

>> Have *you*? Did you hear any of the cultural variety Eli is seeking?,
>> With few exceptions, Israeli radio is 30% advertisement for junk and
>> 70% advertisement for ringtones.
>
> If you want to pay, you can get (e.g., in cable) ad-free radio stations
> with a wide variety of musical generes. But if you don't want to pay, or
> can't pay, you can still listen to music, albeit with less variaty and with
> advertisements.

Yep. That's exactly the point you were originally arguing against. :-)

Eran

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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:43:51 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: Eran Tromer <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?7z+9Pz/vP70/P+8/?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, Eran Tromer wrote about "Re: DMCA �?�??�?�??�?�?��?�?� - �?�?��?�??�?�?��?�?? �?�??�?�?�???????�":
> You're ignoring my argument about the government is the only body in
> position to create such a business without restricting people's freedom
> and creativity by instating copyright laws and employing DRM.

I think you are wrong. Imagine we had a "all-you-can-hear" Ipod buffet.
You pay Apple $10 (or whatever) a month, and you can download as many songs
as you want. But now you say that Apple will, or indeed must, use DRM on the
songs it gives you. But why??? Why should the copyright owners ask Apple
to "protect" the songs they give you? After all the same songs are already
available on the Internet from other sources! Once this obvious fact dawns
on copyright owners - that no matter what DRM they use, the same music will
always be available from other "pirate" sources without DRM - they will
see the futility of DRM and stop using it.

So Apple can already sell a music buffet now, without needing any new
laws, without DRM, or without any government backing. All they need is for
music companies to get off their high horse, and understand that "selling
records", a business that lasted for a little less than a century, may be
ending and that (relatively) cheap all-you-can-hear music buffet's may be
tomorrow's business.

By the way, think of public libraries - which unfortunately are seriously
declining in Israel (according to a recent study, 5 years ago 40% of the
families used them, today 20% of the families use them). It's more-or-less
a buffet of books - read as many books as you want. You can't actually
"keep" the book, but this is just an irrelevant detail (if you want to
reread the book you can always go back to the library and get it).
When libraries were invented, did the government need to make a special
tax to give the book printers some of the revenue they could have had
if libraries hadn't existed? Of course not. The book printers were far
less greedy than today's music and movie sellers, and getting paid by
the library was enough for them - even if they could theoretically make
more money if all libraries went up in smoke.

> > If the government wants to abolish copyright, fine. Let's try that. They
> > tried it in the USSR, and as far as I hear it wasn't a disaster
>
> You mean the USSR had no copyrights but an alternative mechanism to
> fairly compensate authors based on the the citizens' preference and
> consumption habits? Fascinating, can you tell me more?

Unfortunately, no. I only heard rumors to that effect. I understood that
like most everything else, creations belonged to the government, not to
the authors, and like every one, these authors were supplied with (less
than) what they need.
Perhaps someone who lived in the USSR can confirm/deny?

> *That* would be a bad idea indeed. There has to be a mechanism for fair
> distribution of the collected money -- again, based on the the citizens'
> preference and consumption habits. This is obviously the hard (and
> perhaps infeasible) part of this approach. But imagine the consequences
> if we came up with a a nice, fair way to do it!

My guess is that it will be just as fair as today's "channel 1" represents
the interests of the population :-)

--
Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Aug 17 2006, 24 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The socks in my drawer are like
http://nadav.harel.org.il |snowflakes: No two are alike.

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מרגע שהפסקתם לכתוב בשרשור החשוב מאד אודות היזמה החדשה של מרץ בעברית,
הפסקתי לקרוא.
אם חשוב לכם להגיע לכלל הרשומים ברשימת התפוצה הזו - אנא השתדלו להשתמש
בשפת הקודש, או להסתפק במשפטים קצרים ופשוטים בשפות לועז.
אם כוונתכם היתה לשיחה פרטית - אודה לכם אם לא תעמיסו את תיבת הדואר הנכנס שלי.
בכבוד רב

גיא.

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 16:55:02 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:54:42 +0300
From: "Nadav Vinik" <[email protected]>
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אני מצטרף לבקשה.
גם לי זה לא נוח לקרוא את ההודעות באנגלית.

2006/8/17, guydafny <[email protected]>:
> מרגע שהפסקתם לכתוב בשרשור החשוב מאד אודות היזמה החדשה של מרץ בעברית,
> הפסקתי לקרוא.
> אם חשוב לכם להגיע לכלל הרשומים ברשימת התפוצה הזו - אנא השתדלו להשתמש
> בשפת הקודש, או להסתפק במשפטים קצרים ופשוטים בשפות לועז.
> אם כוונתכם היתה לשיחה פרטית - אודה לכם אם לא תעמיסו את תיבת הדואר הנכנס שלי.
> בכבוד רב
>
> גיא.
>
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>

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 16:56:20 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:56:08 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: guydafny <[email protected]>
Cc: "Ha'makor Discussions list" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-8-i?B?15TXldeT16LXlCDXm9ec?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, guydafny wrote about "???�? ???? ?EL ??�?? ?�??":
> ��
> �� , ��
> ��.
>...
> �� - ��
> �� .

��, �� . �� , �� -
�� :-)

--
Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Aug 17 2006, 24 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |This message contains 100% recycled
http://nadav.harel.org.il |characters.

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 17:11:55 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:50:14 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: E L <[email protected]>
Cc: Eran Tromer <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?158/wr0/P9efP8K9?=
=?iso-8859-8-i?B?Pz/Xnz/CvT/CqNefP8K9P8KlIC0g158/wr0/wqLXnz/CvT8/158/wr0/?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, E L wrote about "Re: DMCA �??½??�??½??�??½?¨�??½?¥ - �??½?¢�??½??�??½?¨�??½?? �??½??�??½?¦???????¨":
> I don't see your point,
> What are you trying to prove? That it's not a perfect suggestion? well it's
> not.
> What other options do you have? You rather ISP hunting the internet for
> copyright infrigments?

My only suggestion is: go back to the status quo of 199 (or better yet,
1978, before the copyright extension in the US). There's simply no need
to change the laws. This is my view.

People who continue to copy copyrighted files illegally will continue to
be offenders. Those who want to follow the law will need to use legal
alternatives - buying CDs, using Apple's ipod service or new ones that
will appear, listen to radio (on FM, cable or the Internet), and so on.

> So my question is simple, between the this and the other model which is now
> pushed in USA and latly in europe as well
> what do you prefer?
> Cause when things come to shove that the two options you got.

I have a slight preference to your model, but I ultimately prefer the status
quo, not either of these alternatives (one "nevela", the other "trefa").

--
Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Aug 17 2006, 24 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A professor is one who talks in someone
http://nadav.harel.org.il |else's sleep.

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 17:18:52 2006
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=?windows-1255?Q?=EC=F0=E3=E1_=E4=F8=E0=EC?=
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--------------060508050604030007080802
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Nadav Har'El wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, guydafny wrote about "???�? ???? ?EL ??�?? ?�??":
>
>> ��
>> �� , ��
>> ��.
>> ...
>> �� - ��
>> �� .
>>
�� , ��
�� .

�� . ��
�� . �� .
>
> ��, �� . �� , �� -
> �� :-)
>
��
�� . �� , �� , ��
�� , ��
�� . �� .

��

--------------060508050604030007080802
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1255
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=windows-1255"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body dir="rtl" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Nadav Har'El
wrote: 

<blockquote dir="rtl"
cite="[email protected]" type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, guydafny wrote about "???�? ???? ?EL ??�?? ?�??":
</pre>
<blockquote dir="rtl" type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">��
�� , ��
��.
..
�� - ��
�� .
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
�� , ��
�� . 
 
�� . ��
�� . �� . 
<blockquote dir="rtl"
cite="[email protected]" type="cite">
<pre dir="rtl" wrap="">
��, �� . �� , �� -
�� :-)
</pre>
</blockquote>
��
�� . �� , �� , ��
�� , ��
�� . �� . 
 
�� 
</body>
</html>

--------------060508050604030007080802--

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 17:22:25 2006
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 17:50:18 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:47:31 +0300
From: Lior Kaplan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?B?16rXl9eW15XXp9eqINep16jXqiDXlNee16fXldeo?=
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
To: Dotan Mazor <[email protected]>
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Dotan Mazor wrote:
> שלום לכולם,
>
> בתור חבר ועד חדש, רציתי לדעת מי מנהל את תחזוקת השרת של "המקור". כלומר,
> מי דואג לביצוע משימות תחזוקה שוטפות, עדכוני תוכנה, התקנת תוכנות חדשות
> וגיבויים.

חלק מהמשימות אני עושה - בעיקר עדכוני חבילות (על פי הודעות האבטחה
שמתפרסמות). מאיר (מ-Whatsup) ואני עשינו את השדרוג האחרון של מערכת ההפעלה
(מ-Woody ל-Sarge).

אני גם מקבל הודעות על תקלות בסנכרונים של אתר המראה.

גיבויים - עד כמה שידוע לי אין באופן שוטף.

באופן כללי - אני מטפל בדברים דחופים אם יש. את שאר העניינים של השרת אני
מנסה לרכז (שדרוגים, עדכונים וכו') לתקופות בהם יש לי קצת זמן פנוי.

>
> בתודה,
>
> דותן מזור
>

--

Lior Kaplan
[email protected]
http://www.Guides.co.il

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=?windows-1255?Q?_=EC=E4=E5=F8=E3=E5=FA_=E9=F6=E9=F8=E5=FA_=E3=E9=E2?=
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�� .

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�� :
however, they [the songs] are digitally tied to the limits of the
subscription. That is, if you cancel or let your monthly subscription
dues lapse, the songs become non-playable

��.

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On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Dotan Mazor wrote:

> =F9=EC=E5=ED =EC=EB=E5=EC=ED,
>
>
> =E1=FA=E5=F8 =E7=E1=F8 =E5=F2=E3 =E7=E3=F9, =F8=F6=E9=FA=E9 =EC=E3=F2=FA =
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=F7=E5=F8". =EB=EC=E5=EE=F8,
> =EE=E9 =E3=E5=E0=E2 =EC=E1=E9=F6=E5=F2 =EE=F9=E9=EE=E5=FA =FA=E7=E6=E5=F7=
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=FA=E5=EB=F0=E5=FA =E7=E3=F9=E5=FA
> =E5=E2=E9=E1=E5=E9=E9=ED.
>
>
> =E1=FA=E5=E3=E4,
>
> =E3=E5=FA=EF =EE=E6=E5=F8
>
>

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 18:20:49 2006
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On 2006-08-17 19:43, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> I think you are wrong. Imagine we had a "all-you-can-hear" Ipod buffet.
> You pay Apple $10 (or whatever) a month, and you can download as many songs
> as you want. But now you say that Apple will, or indeed must, use DRM on the
> songs it gives you. But why??? Why should the copyright owners ask Apple
> to "protect" the songs they give you?

Err... There are several such "all-you-can-hear" services, and AFAIK
they all use DRM (for very obvious reasons). So I'm not sure I
understand your question.

> After all the same songs are already
> available on the Internet from other sources!

The studios obviously don't think so, and they're paying an army of
lawyers, lobbyists and engineers to keep it this way.

> Once this obvious fact dawns
> on copyright owners - that no matter what DRM they use, the same music will
> always be available from other "pirate" sources without DRM - they will
> see the futility of DRM and stop using it.

Then what will they make money from, concerts and nice packaging?
In that case they'll be losing the revenue due to exclusiveness (a
nicely package CD of music you can download anyway has less economical
value than a nicely packaged CD of music you can't get otherwise) *and*
imposing restrictions on users. The worst of both worlds. Is this what
you aspire to?

> By the way, think of public libraries - which unfortunately are seriously
> declining in Israel (according to a recent study, 5 years ago 40% of the
> families used them, today 20% of the families use them). It's more-or-less
> a buffet of books - read as many books as you want. You can't actually
> "keep" the book, but this is just an irrelevant detail (if you want to
> reread the book you can always go back to the library and get it).

Keeping the book is relevant - the fact you can't keep the book detracts
from its value for a lot of people who like having their books
accessible, visible and clean. But the really relevant aspect is that
you couldn't easily distribute copies of the library book you've
borrowed, so as long as libraries weren't too popular they didn't form a
big economical threat to publishers; in fact, some publishing niches
(e.g., high-price textbooks) still rely on libraries as their main
clients. Also, there's a lot of historical baggage. So I don't see how
the libraries analogy is relevant. And anyway, current e-Book DRM
schemes *are* preventing library use.

>> *That* would be a bad idea indeed. There has to be a mechanism for fair
>> distribution of the collected money -- again, based on the the citizens'
>> preference and consumption habits. This is obviously the hard (and
>> perhaps infeasible) part of this approach. But imagine the consequences
>> if we came up with a a nice, fair way to do it!
>
> My guess is that it will be just as fair as today's "channel 1" represents
> the interests of the population :-)

I believe it's a very interesting question and by no means obvious. To
name one alternative, you could allow arbitrary copying and playing of
music, then do random sampling of actual music consumption and divide
the tax money according to that. This obviously has a lot of problems
(e.g., how to do so with minimum invasiveness, what to do about derived
works), but seems basically fair. I'm sure you can think up better
schemes that don't follow the "channel 1" model.

Eran

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�� ,

On 2006-08-17 20:49, Assaf Gordon wrote:
> ��, �� Yahoo Music Unlimited, ��
> ��: �� 7 �� - ��

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> �� .

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guydafny
wrote: 

<blockquote dir="rtl" cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">מרגע שהפסקתם לכתוב בשרשור החשוב מאד אודות היזמה החדשה של
מרץ בעברית, הפסקתי לקרוא.
 
אם חשוב לכם להגיע לכלל הרשומים ברשימת התפוצה הזו - אנא השתדלו להשתמש
בשפת הקודש, או להסתפק במשפטים קצרים ופשוטים בשפות לועז.
 
אם כוונתכם היתה לשיחה פרטית - אודה לכם אם לא תעמיסו את תיבת הדואר הנכנס
שלי.
 
בכבוד רב
 
 
גיא.
 
 
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</blockquote>
מצטרף בכל מילה להערה של גיא. 
 
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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 19:51:33 2006
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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:51:20 +0300
From: "Nadav Har'El" <[email protected]>
To: Eran Tromer <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?7z+9Pz/vP70/P+8/?=
=?iso-8859-8-i?B?vT+o7z+9P6UgLSDvP70/ou8/vT8/7z+9P6jvP70/PyDvP70/P+8/vT+m?=
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2006, Eran Tromer wrote about "Re: DMCA �?�??�?�??�?�?��?�?� - �?�?��?�??�?�?��?�?? �?�??�?�?�???????�":
> > Once this obvious fact dawns
> > on copyright owners - that no matter what DRM they use, the same music will
> > always be available from other "pirate" sources without DRM - they will
> > see the futility of DRM and stop using it.
>
> Then what will they make money from, concerts and nice packaging?
> In that case they'll be losing the revenue due to exclusiveness (a
> nicely package CD of music you can download anyway has less economical
> value than a nicely packaged CD of music you can't get otherwise) *and*
> imposing restrictions on users. The worst of both worlds. Is this what
> you aspire to?

�� (�� "��" �� )
�� .

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>..
> clients. Also, there's a lot of historical baggage. So I don't see how
> the libraries analogy is relevant. And anyway, current e-Book DRM
> schemes *are* preventing library use.
>..

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> the tax money according to that. This obviously has a lot of problems
> (e.g., how to do so with minimum invasiveness, what to do about derived
> works), but seems basically fair. I'm sure you can think up better
> schemes that don't follow the "channel 1" model.

�� "minimum invasiveness" �� , ��
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--
Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Aug 17 2006, 24 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |As far as we know, our computer has never
http://nadav.harel.org.il |had an undetected error.

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��,

On 2006-08-17 22:08, Shai Berger wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17 2006 21:43, Eran Tromer wrote:

>> �� $7 ��
>> �� ; ��, ��
>> ��
>
> �� .
>
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>
> ��, �� (�� ), �� (��
> �� ), �� . �� , �� , ��
> 25$ ��. �� ? �� , �� . �� , ��
> �� . �� ? 50$? 100$?
>

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 21:01:12 2006
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Subject: Re: DMCA =?utf-8?b?15HXkNeo16UgLSDXoteW16jXqg==?= =?utf-8?b?INeU16bXmdeR15XXqA==?=
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:00:51 +0300
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ביום חמישי 17 אוגוסט 2006, 13:09, נכתב על ידי Shlomi Fish:
> ראוי לציין שפתחתי דף בויקי שמרכז את כל החומר על ההצעה:
>
> http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law
>
> בכבוד רב,
>
> שלומי פיש

לפני שקראתי את הדיון הזה - כאשר לא ידעתי על המאמצים המרוכזים כאן למלחמה בחוק
הזה, עבדתי על מסמך במטרה להסביר את הבעייתיות שבחוק, ולהציע שינויים אחרים
לחוקי זכויות יוצרים.
הוספתי את מסמך הזה (שעדיין בגדר טיוטה) לויקי בכתובת:
http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Alternative_proposal
אשמח לקבל משוב בקשר אליו.

תודה,
-- חן.

> On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:16, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> > שלום לחברי העמותה,
> >
> >
> > כמו שנכתב במספר מקורות (ynet, הארץ), ודווח לראשונה באתר של הלמו, הוגשה
> > הצעת חוק המזכירה מאוד חלקים מה-DMCA. זוהי קריאה לאנשים לעבור על הצעת
> > החוק ועל האתרים שמנסים להלחם בהם, ולנסות למצוא את הדרכים הנכונות כדי
> > להלחם בהצעה הספציפית הזו, ומה שיותר חשוב, בדומותיה שצפויות לבוא.
> >
> >
> > אנחנו (הועד) מנסים לארגן מסמך ראשוני. הוא יפורסם כאן, ואנחנו ננסה לשפר
> > אותו עד לרמה שבה הוא יהיה הכי אפקטיבי שאפשר.
> >
> >
> > בתודה,
> >
> > שחר
> >
> >
> > קישורים:
> >
> > דיווחים:
> >
> > http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html
> >
> > http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contras
> >sI D=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11
> >
> > http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html
> >
> >
> > הצעת החוק עצמה:
> >
> > http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf
> >
> >
> > אתרים המנסים להלחם:
> >
> > http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/
> >
> > http://www.eff.org/
> >
> >
> > אתרים שניסו להשתיק באמצעות DMCA:
> >
> > http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html - אתר נגד הכת הסינטולוגית

From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 21:38:51 2006
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��,

On 2006-08-17 22:51, Nadav Har'El wrote:

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From [email protected] Thu Aug 17 23:54:19 2006
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ערן:

ההצגה שבחרת להציג את דברי מעוותת לחלוטין את כוונתי. אני אקח על עצמי את האחריות
לכך, ואניח שלא הצלחתי להסביר את עצמי קודם בצורה מספיק ברורה. אז ככה:

א. הטענה שלי שהמחיר גבוה יותר ממה שהצעת -- בסדר גודל -- לא נועדה "להתחיל
להתמקח על המחיר", אלא להראות שהדרישות שיכולות לספק את רעבתנותם של בעלי זכויות
היוצרים (ולא לבלבל אותם עם יוצרים, בבקשה) הן בלתי-הגיוניות כמס גלובלי. אני
אומר שאין מה להתמקח איתם על חוקי זכויות היוצרים וכללי המימוש שלהן; החוקים
הישנים טובים. בעניין הזה, יש נושא אחד שראוי לדעתי להסדרה בחוק, והוא
המחויבויות של ספקי שירות ומארחי אתרים; לא כל כך בגלל הפגיעה בזכויות יוצרים
במצב הקיים, אלא בעיקר כדי ליצור אחידות, ולא שכל ספק ימציא לו וריאציה משלו של
נוהלי הטיפול בטענות על הפרות.

ב. הטענה שלי לגבי הזכויות על עבודות נגזרות לא אומרת "ומס אחיד זו הזדמנות לתקן
את העיוות", אלא "ולכן גם מס אחיד לא יכול להביא לביטול זכויות היוצרים בהסכמה
עם בעלי הזכויות כמו שאתה רוצה".

אלי:

ציטוט של מציעי החוק כאילו הם ברי-סמכא... נו, באמת. קרא את הטקסט של החוק שוב.
באותה מדה היה יכול להיות כתוב שם: "אנו הח"מ לא מבינים כלום בנושא, אבל לא ניתן
לזה לעצור אותנו".

נדב:

בעלי הזכויות לא יבינו את האמת הפשוטה שלך, מפני שהיא מנוגדת לחלוטין לכל צורת
המחשבה והעבודה שלהם. אלו אותם אנשים וחברות שלא הבינו את גודל ההזדמנות שבקלטות
וידאו, עד שבית-משפט אמריקאי הכריח אותם -- ולא ברור בכלל שכאן יש הזדמנות כזו
גדולה; מאד סביר שכמו במקרים רבים קודם לכן, המהפכה הטכנולוגית תנפץ את המודל
העסקי שלהם ואתו את מטה-לחמם (המוזהב). הם ימשיכו להילחם על קיומם, ואנחנו
צריכים להבין שעם כל הרצון הטוב, זה כנראה "או הם או אנחנו". יש, כמובן, יוצאי
דופן -- כמו חברת התקליטים MagnaTune או המו"ל ג'ים באאן (Baen, שהלך לעולמו ממש
לא מזמן) -- אבל הם היוצאים מן הכלל המעידים על הכלל.

לגבי הרעיון לבטל את זכויות היוצרים בתמורה למס דיגיטלי:

יש ברעיון הזה שני חורים עצומים. האחד נוגע לשאר העולם: אני בטוח שישראל חתומה על
שלל אמנות בינ"ל שלא מאפשרות צעד כזה, ושיהפכו אותנו למדינה מנודה אם ננקוט בו.
השני הוא שזה ייצור "חור דיגיטלי" לגבי זכויות על יצירות שאינן דיגיטליות (תמונת
ראי של "החור האנלוגי" -- האפשרות להעתיק דיסק ע"י השמעתו והקלטת המוסיקה
באמצעי אנלוגי, תוך התעלמות מכל מנגנון DRM שהוא). אני מדבר על ציורים, פסלים,
מחזות-זמר וכולי.

לסיכום: את המלחמה על זכויות היוצרים צריך לנהל על בסיס עקרוני, לא על בסיס
התפשרות עם גרגרני הזכויות. לא צריך לשפר את התנאים שלהם כדי שיהיו הוגנים -- הם
כבר הוגנים, ואת הנסיונות שלהם להשיג יותר צריך לראות בדיוק ככאלה. ובאשר
למרצ -- איך אומרים בעברית cluebat?

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Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DMCA =?iso-8859-8-i?B?7z+9Pz/vP70/P+8/?=
=?iso-8859-8-i?B?vT+o7z+9P6UgLSDvP70/ou8/vT8/7z+9P6jvP70/PyDvP70/P+8/vT+m?=
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On Fri, Aug 18, 2006, Eran Tromer wrote about "Re: DMCA �?�??�?�??�?�?��?�?� - �?�?��?�??�?�?��?�?? �?�??�?�?�???????�":
> > �� 100 ��
> > �� . �� , ��
> > �� .
>
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> �� . ��, �� "��" ��.

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�� - �� , ��
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�� - �� *��* �� , ��
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�� ...

--
Nadav Har'El | Friday, Aug 18 2006, 24 Av 5766
[email protected] |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Entropy: Not just a fad, it's the future!
http://nadav.harel.org.il |

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חן שלום,

עברתי על ההצעה שלך, ויש בה הרבה נקודות נכונות. מה שבעיקר יפה בה, היא
העובדה שאתה מתבסס שם על הנחות יסוד ועל מטרות שחוק בא להשיג, מה שהרבה
אנשים שוכחים לעשות.

בכל זאת, דבר אחד מאוד חסר לי בהצעה שלך, והוא רשימה מתומצתת של "אלו הן
הנקודות שלדעתי צריכות להיות בחוק חדש". האם תוכל להכניס רשימה כזאת לתוך
הטקסט?

בברכה,

דותן מזור

Levy, Chen wrote:

> ביום חמישי 17 אוגוסט 2006, 13:09, נכתב על ידי Shlomi Fish:
>
>> ראוי לציין שפתחתי דף בויקי שמרכז את כל החומר על ההצעה:
>>
>> http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law
>>
>> בכבוד רב,
>>
>> שלומי פיש
>>
>
> לפני שקראתי את הדיון הזה - כאשר לא ידעתי על המאמצים המרוכזים כאן למלחמה בחוק
> הזה, עבדתי על מסמך במטרה להסביר את הבעייתיות שבחוק, ולהציע שינויים אחרים
> לחוקי זכויות יוצרים.
> הוספתי את מסמך הזה (שעדיין בגדר טיוטה) לויקי בכתובת:
> http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Alternative_proposal
> אשמח לקבל משוב בקשר אליו.
>
> תודה,
> -- חן.
>
>
>> On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:16, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>>
>>> שלום לחברי העמותה,
>>>
>>>
>>> כמו שנכתב במספר מקורות (ynet, הארץ), ודווח לראשונה באתר של הלמו, הוגשה
>>> הצעת חוק המזכירה מאוד חלקים מה-DMCA. זוהי קריאה לאנשים לעבור על הצעת
>>> החוק ועל האתרים שמנסים להלחם בהם, ולנסות למצוא את הדרכים הנכונות כדי
>>> להלחם בהצעה הספציפית הזו, ומה שיותר חשוב, בדומותיה שצפויות לבוא.
>>>
>>>
>>> אנחנו (הועד) מנסים לארגן מסמך ראשוני. הוא יפורסם כאן, ואנחנו ננסה לשפר
>>> אותו עד לרמה שבה הוא יהיה הכי אפקטיבי שאפשר.
>>>
>>>
>>> בתודה,
>>>
>>> שחר
>>>
>>>
>>> קישורים:
>>>
>>> דיווחים:
>>>
>>> http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html
>>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contras
>>> sI D=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11
>>>
>>> http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html
>>>
>>>
>>> הצעת החוק עצמה:
>>>
>>> http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf
>>>
>>>
>>> אתרים המנסים להלחם:
>>>
>>> http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/
>>>
>>> http://www.eff.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> אתרים שניסו להשתיק באמצעות DMCA:
>>>
>>> http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html - אתר נגד הכת הסינטולוגית
>>>
>
>
>

--
Dotan Mazor
http://www.dotanmazor.com

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חן שלום,
 

עברתי על ההצעה שלך, ויש בה הרבה
נקודות נכונות. מה שבעיקר יפה בה, היא העובדה שאתה מתבסס שם על הנחות יסוד
ועל מטרות שחוק בא להשיג, מה שהרבה אנשים שוכחים לעשות.
 

בכל זאת, דבר אחד מאוד חסר לי בהצעה
שלך, והוא רשימה מתומצתת של "אלו הן הנקודות שלדעתי צריכות להיות בחוק
חדש". האם תוכל להכניס רשימה כזאת לתוך הטקסט?
 

בברכה,
דותן מזור 




 
Levy, Chen wrote: 

<blockquote cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ביום חמישי 17 אוגוסט 2006, 13:09, נכתב על ידי Shlomi Fish:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ראוי לציין שפתחתי דף בויקי שמרכז את כל החומר על ההצעה:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law">http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law</a>

בכבוד רב,

שלומי פיש
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
לפני שקראתי את הדיון הזה - כאשר לא ידעתי על המאמצים המרוכזים כאן למלחמה בחוק
הזה, עבדתי על מסמך במטרה להסביר את הבעייתיות שבחוק, ולהציע שינויים אחרים
לחוקי זכויות יוצרים.
הוספתי את מסמך הזה (שעדיין בגדר טיוטה) לויקי בכתובת:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Alternative_proposal">http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Alternative_proposal</a>
אשמח לקבל משוב בקשר אליו.

תודה,
-- חן.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:16, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">שלום לחברי העמותה,

כמו שנכתב במספר מקורות (ynet, הארץ), ודווח לראשונה באתר של הלמו, הוגשה
הצעת חוק המזכירה מאוד חלקים מה-DMCA. זוהי קריאה לאנשים לעבור על הצעת
החוק ועל האתרים שמנסים להלחם בהם, ולנסות למצוא את הדרכים הנכונות כדי
להלחם בהצעה הספציפית הזו, ומה שיותר חשוב, בדומותיה שצפויות לבוא.

אנחנו (הועד) מנסים לארגן מסמך ראשוני. הוא יפורסם כאן, ואנחנו ננסה לשפר
אותו עד לרמה שבה הוא יהיה הכי אפקטיבי שאפשר.

בתודה,

שחר

קישורים:

דיווחים:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html">http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html</a>

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contras">http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contras</a>
sI D=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html">http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html</a>

הצעת החוק עצמה:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf">http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf</a>

אתרים המנסים להלחם:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/">http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/</a>

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.eff.org/">http://www.eff.org/</a>

אתרים שניסו להשתיק באמצעות DMCA:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html">http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html</a> - אתר נגד הכת הסינטולוגית
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">

</pre>
</blockquote>
 
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dotan Mazor
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dotanmazor.com">http://www.dotanmazor.com</a>
</pre>
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בוקר טוב כולם,

ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?

דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע טיעון
מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.

בהתאם להנחת בסיס זו, שמעוניינת שהעולם לא יפסיד את המגוון הנפלא של
היצירות, יש למיסוי על האינטרנט כשל אחד ענק. זאת, כי הדרך היחידה לאמן
לקבל את ה"תמלוגים" שלו מאותו המס, הוא להיות חבר באחד הארגונים שיקבלו נתח
מאותו המס. משל "אם אתה רוצה לשווק את היצירות שלך בעצמך, או במסגרת ארגון
שאינו מוכר על ידינו [המדינה לא תתחיל להתעסק עם כל חברת מדיה שיש לה 10
אמנים], אז כדאי שתתחיל להתרגל לעובדה שלא תקבל כסף עבור היצירות שלך".

ואיפשהו, יש לי תחושה מאוד חזקה, שהמפתח לחלוקת ההכנסות בין אותם הארגונים,
יהיה על פי מספר היצירות הדיגיטליות אשר נמצאות ברשותם. גם אם כן וגם אם
לא, אז הארגונים הגדולים כבר ימצאו את הדרכים לסחוט מכל חוק שכזה את המירב.

וזו, לעניות דעתי, תוצאה שאכן תגיע, ותפגע בעושר האנושי.

מיסוי לצורך הכרה בהפרת זכויות יוצרים, לעולם לא יוכל לתגמל נכונה את
האמנים, שאת יצירותיהם מעתיקים ו/או מפיצים שלא ברשות.

מה שאני אומר בהקשר הכללי הוא דבר פשוט: "שמירה על זכויות היוצרים היא דבר
מאוד חשוב, אבל אם אין לכם הצעה שלא תפגע בכלל הציבור, ואם אין לכם הצעה
שבאמת תפתור את בעיית ההעתקות וההפצות שלא ברשות, אז אל תציעו".

זה בסדר גמור לא להציע.

איכשהו, בגלל אופי ההודעות ברשימה זו, אני חושב שכדאי שאוסיף, שהעמדה שלי
אינה מתייחסת להצעה של מישהו כזה או אחר, אלא מדובר בעמדה עקרונית, אשר בה
אני מאמין.

בברכה,

דותן מזור

Shai Berger wrote:

> ערן:
>
> ההצגה שבחרת להציג את דברי מעוותת לחלוטין את כוונתי. אני אקח על עצמי את האחריות
> לכך, ואניח שלא הצלחתי להסביר את עצמי קודם בצורה מספיק ברורה. אז ככה:
>
> א. הטענה שלי שהמחיר גבוה יותר ממה שהצעת -- בסדר גודל -- לא נועדה "להתחיל
> להתמקח על המחיר", אלא להראות שהדרישות שיכולות לספק את רעבתנותם של בעלי זכויות
> היוצרים (ולא לבלבל אותם עם יוצרים, בבקשה) הן בלתי-הגיוניות כמס גלובלי. אני
> אומר שאין מה להתמקח איתם על חוקי זכויות היוצרים וכללי המימוש שלהן; החוקים
> הישנים טובים. בעניין הזה, יש נושא אחד שראוי לדעתי להסדרה בחוק, והוא
> המחויבויות של ספקי שירות ומארחי אתרים; לא כל כך בגלל הפגיעה בזכויות יוצרים
> במצב הקיים, אלא בעיקר כדי ליצור אחידות, ולא שכל ספק ימציא לו וריאציה משלו של
> נוהלי הטיפול בטענות על הפרות.
>
> ב. הטענה שלי לגבי הזכויות על עבודות נגזרות לא אומרת "ומס אחיד זו הזדמנות לתקן
> את העיוות", אלא "ולכן גם מס אחיד לא יכול להביא לביטול זכויות היוצרים בהסכמה
> עם בעלי הזכויות כמו שאתה רוצה".
>
> אלי:
>
> ציטוט של מציעי החוק כאילו הם ברי-סמכא... נו, באמת. קרא את הטקסט של החוק שוב.
> באותה מדה היה יכול להיות כתוב שם: "אנו הח"מ לא מבינים כלום בנושא, אבל לא ניתן
> לזה לעצור אותנו".
>
> נדב:
>
> בעלי הזכויות לא יבינו את האמת הפשוטה שלך, מפני שהיא מנוגדת לחלוטין לכל צורת
> המחשבה והעבודה שלהם. אלו אותם אנשים וחברות שלא הבינו את גודל ההזדמנות שבקלטות
> וידאו, עד שבית-משפט אמריקאי הכריח אותם -- ולא ברור בכלל שכאן יש הזדמנות כזו
> גדולה; מאד סביר שכמו במקרים רבים קודם לכן, המהפכה הטכנולוגית תנפץ את המודל
> העסקי שלהם ואתו את מטה-לחמם (המוזהב). הם ימשיכו להילחם על קיומם, ואנחנו
> צריכים להבין שעם כל הרצון הטוב, זה כנראה "או הם או אנחנו". יש, כמובן, יוצאי
> דופן -- כמו חברת התקליטים MagnaTune או המו"ל ג'ים באאן (Baen, שהלך לעולמו ממש
> לא מזמן) -- אבל הם היוצאים מן הכלל המעידים על הכלל.
>
> לגבי הרעיון לבטל את זכויות היוצרים בתמורה למס דיגיטלי:
>
> יש ברעיון הזה שני חורים עצומים. האחד נוגע לשאר העולם: אני בטוח שישראל חתומה על
> שלל אמנות בינ"ל שלא מאפשרות צעד כזה, ושיהפכו אותנו למדינה מנודה אם ננקוט בו.
> השני הוא שזה ייצור "חור דיגיטלי" לגבי זכויות על יצירות שאינן דיגיטליות (תמונת
> ראי של "החור האנלוגי" -- האפשרות להעתיק דיסק ע"י השמעתו והקלטת המוסיקה
> באמצעי אנלוגי, תוך התעלמות מכל מנגנון DRM שהוא). אני מדבר על ציורים, פסלים,
> מחזות-זמר וכולי.
>
> לסיכום: את המלחמה על זכויות היוצרים צריך לנהל על בסיס עקרוני, לא על בסיס
> התפשרות עם גרגרני הזכויות. לא צריך לשפר את התנאים שלהם כדי שיהיו הוגנים -- הם
> כבר הוגנים, ואת הנסיונות שלהם להשיג יותר צריך לראות בדיוק ככאלה. ובאשר
> למרצ -- איך אומרים בעברית cluebat?
>
>
>

--
Dotan Mazor
http://www.dotanmazor.com

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From [email protected] Fri Aug 18 10:19:15 2006
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From: Shlomi Fish <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: =?utf-8?b?15TXoteo15Qg16LXnA==?= "=?utf-8?b?157XoS3Xp9eR15XXog==?=" =?utf-8?b?15zXlNeV16jXk9eV16og15nXpteZ16jXldeq?=
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On Friday 18 August 2006 10:56, Dotan Mazor wrote:
> בוקר טוב כולם,
>
>
> ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
> המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?
>
>
> דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע טיעון
> מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
> שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
> היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.

זה מעניין. לי בתור אומן (ראה למשל - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ ) ברור
שהמטרות העיקרית שלי ביצירה הן משום שאני נהנה מזה, משום שאני מרגיש שאני חייב
לכתוב את מה שעולה לי בראש, ומשום שאני רוצה שמספר רב ככל האפשר של אנשים יקראו
את מה שאני כותב ויחוו את החומר. עד עכשיו הרווחתי מעט מאוד כסף מהיצירות שלי
(שרובן נמצאות על הרשת ורובן אפילו עם רשיון חופשי).

אני מאמין שחלק גדול מהאמנים האחרים גם מרגישים כך. ולעדות ראו מסמך זה:

http://xrl.us/qvoj

המתאר מקומות רבים בהם ניתן למצוא אומנות חופשית או חופשית למחצה.

כפי שידוע, מרבית האמנים בעבר ובימינו לא הצליחו להתפרנס מאומנותם בלבד. אולם, זה
נכון שמרבית האומנים הגדולים בעבר כן נעשו ידועים בתקופתם ( ראה
http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage34.html ).

מה רציתי לומר? כפי שטענתי כאן:

http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/case-for-file-swapping/

אסור למחוקק לאסור על הפצה ושימוש לא מסחריים של יצירות המוגנות בזכויות יוצרים.
נסיון להילחם בכך נועד לכשלון, ורק יגרום לאנטגוניזם נגד התובעים. לאחרונה יש
נסיונות להעביר חוקים שמנסים שהעתקת תוכן באינטרנט תהיה עבירה פלילית ושהמשטרה
תצטרך לאכוף זאת. תגידו לי - האם למשטרה אין מספיק עבודה עם כל מקרי הרצח,
הגניבה והאונס הקיימים, שהם צריכים גם לרדוף אחרי ילדים בני עשר שמורידים שירים
שהם אוהבים מהאינטרנט?

בנוסף, כפי שאנשים רבים הראו, האינטרנט מהווה אפיק מצוין לשיווק יצירותיהם,
ולגרום לכך שיותר אנשים ידעו עליהם, מה שמאפשר להם הצלחה ראשונה גם בלי עזרת
המפיצים.

בכבוד רב,

שלומי פיש

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish [email protected]
Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

From [email protected] Fri Aug 18 13:36:00 2006
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שלומי,

הנקודות שאתה מעלה הן נכונות. אך כמו שצויין כאן ברשימה, מדובר בתובעים
שממש לא אכפת להם אם יהיה אנטגוניזם נגדם.

הם רוצים כסף, לא סימפטיה.

ובקשר למשטרה, אתה צודק, אבל כשיש לגוף מסויים מספיק תמיכה ציבורית וחוקית,
אז גם המשטרה מגיעה עם הנציגים של אותו הגוף כדי לאכוף צווים.

בברכה,

דותן מזור

Shlomi Fish wrote:

> On Friday 18 August 2006 10:56, Dotan Mazor wrote:
>
>> בוקר טוב כולם,
>>
>>
>> ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
>> המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?
>>
>>
>> דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע טיעון
>> מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
>> שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
>> היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.
>>
>
> זה מעניין. לי בתור אומן (ראה למשל - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ ) ברור
> שהמטרות העיקרית שלי ביצירה הן משום שאני נהנה מזה, משום שאני מרגיש שאני חייב
> לכתוב את מה שעולה לי בראש, ומשום שאני רוצה שמספר רב ככל האפשר של אנשים יקראו
> את מה שאני כותב ויחוו את החומר. עד עכשיו הרווחתי מעט מאוד כסף מהיצירות שלי
> (שרובן נמצאות על הרשת ורובן אפילו עם רשיון חופשי).
>
> אני מאמין שחלק גדול מהאמנים האחרים גם מרגישים כך. ולעדות ראו מסמך זה:
>
> http://xrl.us/qvoj
>
> המתאר מקומות רבים בהם ניתן למצוא אומנות חופשית או חופשית למחצה.
>
> כפי שידוע, מרבית האמנים בעבר ובימינו לא הצליחו להתפרנס מאומנותם בלבד. אולם, זה
> נכון שמרבית האומנים הגדולים בעבר כן נעשו ידועים בתקופתם ( ראה
> http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage34.html ).
>
> מה רציתי לומר? כפי שטענתי כאן:
>
> http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/case-for-file-swapping/
>
> אסור למחוקק לאסור על הפצה ושימוש לא מסחריים של יצירות המוגנות בזכויות יוצרים.
> נסיון להילחם בכך נועד לכשלון, ורק יגרום לאנטגוניזם נגד התובעים. לאחרונה יש
> נסיונות להעביר חוקים שמנסים שהעתקת תוכן באינטרנט תהיה עבירה פלילית ושהמשטרה
> תצטרך לאכוף זאת. תגידו לי - האם למשטרה אין מספיק עבודה עם כל מקרי הרצח,
> הגניבה והאונס הקיימים, שהם צריכים גם לרדוף אחרי ילדים בני עשר שמורידים שירים
> שהם אוהבים מהאינטרנט?
>
> בנוסף, כפי שאנשים רבים הראו, האינטרנט מהווה אפיק מצוין לשיווק יצירותיהם,
> ולגרום לכך שיותר אנשים ידעו עליהם, מה שמאפשר להם הצלחה ראשונה גם בלי עזרת
> המפיצים.
>
> בכבוד רב,
>
> שלומי פיש
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish [email protected]
> Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
>
> Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
> destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
>
>
>

--
Dotan Mazor
http://www.dotanmazor.com

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שלומי,
 

הנקודות שאתה מעלה הן נכונות. אך
כמו שצויין כאן ברשימה, מדובר בתובעים שממש לא אכפת להם אם יהיה אנטגוניזם
נגדם.
 

הם רוצים כסף, לא סימפטיה.
 

ובקשר למשטרה, אתה צודק, אבל כשיש
לגוף מסויים מספיק תמיכה ציבורית וחוקית, אז גם המשטרה מגיעה עם הנציגים
של אותו הגוף כדי לאכוף צווים.
 

בברכה,
דותן מזור 





 
Shlomi Fish wrote: 

<blockquote cite="[email protected]" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Friday 18 August 2006 10:56, Dotan Mazor wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">בוקר טוב כולם,

ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?

דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע טיעון
מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
זה מעניין. לי בתור אומן (ראה למשל - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/">http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/</a> ) ברור
שהמטרות העיקרית שלי ביצירה הן משום שאני נהנה מזה, משום שאני מרגיש שאני חייב
לכתוב את מה שעולה לי בראש, ומשום שאני רוצה שמספר רב ככל האפשר של אנשים יקראו
את מה שאני כותב ויחוו את החומר. עד עכשיו הרווחתי מעט מאוד כסף מהיצירות שלי
(שרובן נמצאות על הרשת ורובן אפילו עם רשיון חופשי).

אני מאמין שחלק גדול מהאמנים האחרים גם מרגישים כך. ולעדות ראו מסמך זה:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://xrl.us/qvoj">http://xrl.us/qvoj</a>

המתאר מקומות רבים בהם ניתן למצוא אומנות חופשית או חופשית למחצה.

כפי שידוע, מרבית האמנים בעבר ובימינו לא הצליחו להתפרנס מאומנותם בלבד. אולם, זה
נכון שמרבית האומנים הגדולים בעבר כן נעשו ידועים בתקופתם ( ראה
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage34.html">http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage34.html</a> ).

מה רציתי לומר? כפי שטענתי כאן:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/case-for-file-swapping/">http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/case-for-file-swapping/</a>

אסור למחוקק לאסור על הפצה ושימוש לא מסחריים של יצירות המוגנות בזכויות יוצרים.
נסיון להילחם בכך נועד לכשלון, ורק יגרום לאנטגוניזם נגד התובעים. לאחרונה יש
נסיונות להעביר חוקים שמנסים שהעתקת תוכן באינטרנט תהיה עבירה פלילית ושהמשטרה
תצטרך לאכוף זאת. תגידו לי - האם למשטרה אין מספיק עבודה עם כל מקרי הרצח,
הגניבה והאונס הקיימים, שהם צריכים גם לרדוף אחרי ילדים בני עשר שמורידים שירים
שהם אוהבים מהאינטרנט?

בנוסף, כפי שאנשים רבים הראו, האינטרנט מהווה אפיק מצוין לשיווק יצירותיהם,
ולגרום לכך שיותר אנשים ידעו עליהם, מה שמאפשר להם הצלחה ראשונה גם בלי עזרת
המפיצים.

בכבוד רב,

שלומי פיש

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>
Homepage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.shlomifish.org/">http://www.shlomifish.org/</a>

Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.

</pre>
</blockquote>
 
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dotan Mazor
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.dotanmazor.com">http://www.dotanmazor.com</a>
</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------040303000001040707060509--

From [email protected] Fri Aug 18 15:43:17 2006
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רבותי,

הדיון שאתם מנהלים כאן אכן מעניין וראוי שיתקיים, אבל...

אנו ניצבים כעת בפני חקיקה שעלולה לגרום לכך שלא יהיה ניתן להפיץ תוכנות מסויימות
המופצות תחת רשיון ה־ GPL. אם קיימת חובה השנגן VLC יכיל אמצעי DRM, ואסור יהיה
בארץ לשנות את התוכנה כך שאמצעים אלו יוסרו, הרי שמדינת ישראל מוספיה מגבלה
לרשיון ה־ GPL, והדרך היחידה לעמוד בשתי המגבלות גם יחד היא להימנע כליל מהפצה
ושימוש בתוכנה.

אני מביא את הטיעון הזה, לא על־מנת להרחיב את הדיון, אלא כדי להדגים את הדחיפות
של פעולוה אופרטיבית.

זאת ועוד, אני מאמין שהתגובות החריפות להצעת החוק הזו, תפסו את אנשי מרצ בהפתעה.
כפי שאני רואה את הדברים, הם ראו בהצעת החוק הזאת עוד חוק "אפור", שיוסיף
לסטטיסטיקת החקיקה שלהם. אני סבור שהנזק האלקטורלי שנגרם ושעלול להיגרם למפלגה
כתוצאה מהמשך העיסוק בחוק הזה, מציב בפנינו הזדמנות פז לנסות ולשנות את כיוון
החקיקה בנושא זכויות היוצרים בארץ, או לכל הפחות מפאשר להעלות את הנושאים הללו
לסדר היום ציבורי.

אני מתקשה להאמין שבפורם כזה, המכיל אנשים נבונים ובעלי דיעות מוצקות, יהיה ניתן
להגיע לקוצנזוס בקשר למטרה שמתאימה לכולנו, ולו רק עקב העובדה שאין מטרה אחת
כזאת. יחד עם זאת אין צורך במטרה אחת כזאת. די אם נציג בפני המחוקק חלופות
לחקיקה הקונבנציולית בנושאי זכויות־יוצרים (קריא: הידוק הולך וגובר של חוקים
אלו).

כשלעמי, אני שוקד על מסמך כזה ב־
http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Alternative_proposal שמתאר נקודת ראיה
שונה (שאני הראשון שאתוודא - המושפעת ממשנתו של פרופ' לורנס לסיג) ומציע חקיקה
אלטרנטיבית. אני מזמין אתכם לפרוס את משנתכם בעמוד שפתחתי, או אם אינכם מסכימים
את ההצעה שאני מעלה, בעמוד חדש תחת העמוד
http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law שפתח שלומי.

בברכה,
-- חן לוי.

ביום שישי 18 אוגוסט 2006, 16:15, נכתב על ידי Dotan Mazor:
> שלומי,
>
>
> הנקודות שאתה מעלה הן נכונות. אך כמו שצויין כאן ברשימה, מדובר בתובעים
> שממש לא אכפת להם אם יהיה אנטגוניזם נגדם.
>
>
> הם רוצים כסף, לא סימפטיה.
>
>
> ובקשר למשטרה, אתה צודק, אבל כשיש לגוף מסויים מספיק תמיכה ציבורית וחוקית,
> אז גם המשטרה מגיעה עם הנציגים של אותו הגוף כדי לאכוף צווים.
>
>
> בברכה,
>
> דותן מזור
>
> Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > On Friday 18 August 2006 10:56, Dotan Mazor wrote:
> >> בוקר טוב כולם,
> >>
> >>
> >> ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
> >> המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?
> >>
> >>
> >> דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע טיעון
> >> מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
> >> שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
> >> היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.
> >
> > זה מעניין. לי בתור אומן (ראה למשל - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ )
> > ברור שהמטרות העיקרית שלי ביצירה הן משום שאני נהנה מזה, משום שאני מרגיש
> > שאני חייב לכתוב את מה שעולה לי בראש, ומשום שאני רוצה שמספר רב ככל האפשר
> > של אנשים יקראו את מה שאני כותב ויחוו את החומר. עד עכשיו הרווחתי מעט מאוד
> > כסף מהיצירות שלי (שרובן נמצאות על הרשת ורובן אפילו עם רשיון חופשי).
> >
> > אני מאמין שחלק גדול מהאמנים האחרים גם מרגישים כך. ולעדות ראו מסמך זה:
> >
> > http://xrl.us/qvoj
> >
> > המתאר מקומות רבים בהם ניתן למצוא אומנות חופשית או חופשית למחצה.
> >
> > כפי שידוע, מרבית האמנים בעבר ובימינו לא הצליחו להתפרנס מאומנותם בלבד.
> > אולם, זה נכון שמרבית האומנים הגדולים בעבר כן נעשו ידועים בתקופתם ( ראה
> > http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage34.html ).
> >
> > מה רציתי לומר? כפי שטענתי כאן:
> >
> > http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/case-for-file-swapping/
> >
> > אסור למחוקק לאסור על הפצה ושימוש לא מסחריים של יצירות המוגנות בזכויות
> > יוצרים. נסיון להילחם בכך נועד לכשלון, ורק יגרום לאנטגוניזם נגד התובעים.
> > לאחרונה יש נסיונות להעביר חוקים שמנסים שהעתקת תוכן באינטרנט תהיה עבירה
> > פלילית ושהמשטרה תצטרך לאכוף זאת. תגידו לי - האם למשטרה אין מספיק עבודה עם
> > כל מקרי הרצח, הגניבה והאונס הקיימים, שהם צריכים גם לרדוף אחרי ילדים בני
> > עשר שמורידים שירים שהם אוהבים מהאינטרנט?
> >
> > בנוסף, כפי שאנשים רבים הראו, האינטרנט מהווה אפיק מצוין לשיווק יצירותיהם,
> > ולגרום לכך שיותר אנשים ידעו עליהם, מה שמאפשר להם הצלחה ראשונה גם בלי עזרת
> > המפיצים.
> >
> > בכבוד רב,
> >
> > שלומי פיש
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shlomi Fish [email protected]
> > Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
> >
> > Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
> > destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his
> > secrets.

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דותן,

תודה על המשוב.

אני מסכים לחלועטין עם הביקורת שהעלת. ציינתי נקודה זאת בעמוד השיחה. לצערי הרבה
יותר קשה לכתוב מסמך קצר וענייני ממסמך ארוך וענייני. אעשה כמיטב יכולתי לענות
על עניין זה, אך כמובן אקבל בברכה על עזרה בנושא.

ביום שישי 18 אוגוסט 2006, 10:39, נכתב על ידי Dotan Mazor:
> חן שלום,
>
>
> עברתי על ההצעה שלך, ויש בה הרבה נקודות נכונות. מה שבעיקר יפה בה, היא
> העובדה שאתה מתבסס שם על הנחות יסוד ועל מטרות שחוק בא להשיג, מה שהרבה
> אנשים שוכחים לעשות.
>
>
> בכל זאת, דבר אחד מאוד חסר לי בהצעה שלך, והוא רשימה מתומצתת של "אלו הן
> הנקודות שלדעתי צריכות להיות בחוק חדש". האם תוכל להכניס רשימה כזאת לתוך
> הטקסט?
>
>
> בברכה,
>
> דותן מזור
>
> Levy, Chen wrote:
> > ביום חמישי 17 אוגוסט 2006, 13:09, נכתב על ידי Shlomi Fish:
> >> ראוי לציין שפתחתי דף בויקי שמרכז את כל החומר על ההצעה:
> >>
> >> http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law
> >>
> >> בכבוד רב,
> >>
> >> שלומי פיש
> >
> > לפני שקראתי את הדיון הזה - כאשר לא ידעתי על המאמצים המרוכזים כאן למלחמה
> > בחוק הזה, עבדתי על מסמך במטרה להסביר את הבעייתיות שבחוק, ולהציע שינויים
> > אחרים לחוקי זכויות יוצרים.
> > הוספתי את מסמך הזה (שעדיין בגדר טיוטה) לויקי בכתובת:
> > http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Alternative_proposal
> > אשמח לקבל משוב בקשר אליו.
> >
> > תודה,
> > -- חן.
> >
> >> On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:16, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> >>> שלום לחברי העמותה,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> כמו שנכתב במספר מקורות (ynet, הארץ), ודווח לראשונה באתר של הלמו, הוגשה
> >>> הצעת חוק המזכירה מאוד חלקים מה-DMCA. זוהי קריאה לאנשים לעבור על הצעת
> >>> החוק ועל האתרים שמנסים להלחם בהם, ולנסות למצוא את הדרכים הנכונות כדי
> >>> להלחם בהצעה הספציפית הזו, ומה שיותר חשוב, בדומותיה שצפויות לבוא.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> אנחנו (הועד) מנסים לארגן מסמך ראשוני. הוא יפורסם כאן, ואנחנו ננסה לשפר
> >>> אותו עד לרמה שבה הוא יהיה הכי אפקטיבי שאפשר.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> בתודה,
> >>>
> >>> שחר
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> קישורים:
> >>>
> >>> דיווחים:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3291668,00.html
> >>>
> >>> http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=751518&contr
> >>>as sI D=2&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=11
> >>>
> >>> http://halemo.net/edoar/0082/0006.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> הצעת החוק עצמה:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.knesset.gov.il/privatelaw/data/17/3932.rtf
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> אתרים המנסים להלחם:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/
> >>>
> >>> http://www.eff.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> אתרים שניסו להשתיק באמצעות DMCA:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.xenu.net/copyright.html - אתר נגד הכת הסינטולוגית

From [email protected] Sat Aug 19 06:18:43 2006
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:17:33 +0300 (IDT)
From: Orna Agmon <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: =?windows-1255?Q?=E5=F2=E3_=E7=E3=F9?=
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
X-X-Sender: ladypine@granada
To: Shachar Shemesh <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:04:09 +0300
> From: Shachar Shemesh <[email protected]>
> To: Ha'makor Discussions list <[email protected]>
> Subject: [windows-1255] ��
>
> �� ,
>
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> �� , �� . ��
> �� , �� .
>
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>
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>

�� , �� 3 �� 64 �� -PPC.

Orna.
--
Orna Agmon http://ladypine.org/ http://haifux.org/~ladypine/
ICQ: 348759096

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From [email protected] Sat Aug 19 07:51:00 2006
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Subject: [Surprisingly, not a rant] Captions for Ram-On's movie about the
Hod-Hasharon computer class
From: Omer Zak <[email protected]>
To: Ram-on Agmon <[email protected]>,
Shlomi Israel <[email protected]>,
Beni Cherniavsky <[email protected]>
Cc: HaMakor <[email protected]>
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מצורפים בזה קבצי כיתוביות (*.srt) כדי להציג את הסרט של רם-און אגמון
(גירסא של 6:04 דקות, אורך קובץ 55551624 תווים) עם כיתוביות.

כמובן שהכיתוביות אינן ברמה מקצועית. אם מישהו רוצה לשפר את הגירסא העברית
ו/או האנגלית - הוא מוזמן. לכיתוביות יש אותן זכויות היוצרים כמו לסרט
המקורי.

הקבצים הינם כדלקמן.

הוכנו על ידי בני צ'רניאבסקי:
democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.cp1255.srt - כיתוביות בעברית, קידוד
CP-1255
democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt - כיתוביות בעברית, קידוד
UTF-8

הוכן על ידי עומר זק ע"י תרגום הקבצים הנ"ל לאנגלית:
democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.en.srt

פקודת mplayer להצגת הסרט עם כיתוביות, בהנחה שהסרט וקובץ כיתוביות כבר
הורדו למחשבך:
mplayer -subcp utf8 \
-sub democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt \
democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.wmv \
-font David -noflip-hebrew-commas

אם אינך רואה אותיות עבריות, בדוק בעזרת fc-list איזה פונט TrueType עם
עברית יש לך וכתוב את שמו במקום David בפקודה דלעיל.

זמן עבודה שנדרש למשימת התרגום מעברית לאנגלית:
סה"כ 85 כיתוביות.
זמן תרגום - 50 דקות.
משימות נלוות - התקנת mplayer ותיצורו, פתירת בעיות קטנות, צפייה בסרט כמה
פעמים, דוא"ל - בערך שעה.

מי שאחראי על אחסון הסרט באתר באינטרנט, בבקשה לשים את קבצי הכיתוביות יחד
עם הסרט ולהודיע לי באיזה URL-ים הם נמצאים.

--- עומר

--=-KJkRYlPmT8iLmdmooQBe
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--=-KJkRYlPmT8iLmdmooQBe
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.en.srt
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1
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= Free class in democratic school =

2
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[Children play and talk]

3
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= Linux-based computer lab =

4
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Shay: OK??

5
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Nice. How much is 270 plus 360 divided by 2?

6
00:00:27,065 --> 00:00:28,383
= Hod Hashron Democratic School =
Yaheli: plus??

7
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= Hod Hashron Democratic School =
Shay: you add them, divide by two and you reach the middle.

8
00:00:32,402 --> 00:00:34,486
Raal: at beginning, I knew nothing,

9
00:00:34,568 --> 00:00:38,327
now I know to operate the PC,

10
00:00:38,424 --> 00:00:41,039
I know how to use the turtle,

11
00:00:41,248 --> 00:00:43,432
Interviewer: the turtle? What is the turtle?

12
00:00:43,432 --> 00:00:50,339
Raal: yes, the turtle is program,
we give it all kinds of commands

13
00:00:50,339 --> 00:00:52,769
Interviewer: can you demo it?
Raal: yes, see:

14
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FW is forward

15
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TL is turn left

16
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TR is turn right

17
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18
00:01:06,372 --> 00:01:09,253
Interviewer: you are both parent and...
Shay: I am also school teacher.

19
00:01:09,253 --> 00:01:11,253
Interviewer: ...teacher in school?
Shay: of course.

20
00:01:11,253 --> 00:01:17,384
I am also student in incubator for
social-educational entrepreneurship

21
00:01:17,384 --> 00:01:20,469
of the Institution for Democratic Education in
the Kibbutzim Seminar

22
00:01:20,469 --> 00:01:22,471
Interviewer: after this, are there more teachers
who replace you?

23
00:01:22,572 --> 00:01:25,903
Shay: Yes. The Bible teacher, for example, uses the lab

24
00:01:25,903 --> 00:01:31,992
because for learning disabled pupils it is easier to type
term papers on computer than to write on paper.

25
00:01:31,992 --> 00:01:35,669
So it happens that children, who did nothing until
now, suddenly write term papers!

26
00:01:35,669 --> 00:01:41,247
The next idea is to darken the room or the hall and
with a projector create a planetarium on the ceiling

27
00:01:42,636 --> 00:01:45,333
Thaya: In logo I do...

28
00:01:45,333 --> 00:01:46,291
[Yay! I exploded!]

29
00:01:47,147 --> 00:01:56,402
Thaya: I am trying to do the multiplication table using REPEAT
and I love the computers class.

30
00:01:56,503 --> 00:01:58,055
[Children at a free hour surf the Internet]

31
00:01:58,136 --> 00:02:01,813
[Ittai and Noam play] Noam: Yaa! Whaw! Yahoo!

32
00:02:02,139 --> 00:02:06,328
It is Yeti, and this is Cargo - Wild Cargo

33
00:02:06,328 --> 00:02:10,680
- Yeti - is it strong and eveil?
- Very much, also Wild Cargo

34
00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:17,158
Shay: the class is based upon a Linux server and weak workstations.
The weak ones are 486 through Pentium II computers

35
00:02:17,158 --> 00:02:22,980
which we got as donations from various companies. The server was
donated by "Hamakor" and we built here a computer room.

36
00:02:22,980 --> 00:02:26,985
First of all, the most important for me, the operating
system which we use is Linux

37
00:02:27,067 --> 00:02:29,968
[explaining to Tomer about computer loops]
Work environment at negligible cost to the school

38
00:02:29,968 --> 00:02:36,446
No problem of children having here (for free) the OS but if they
want it at home, they must steal it.

39
00:02:36,547 --> 00:02:40,552
Since Linux is free, I can hand out CDs to children to bring home.

40
00:02:40,593 --> 00:02:44,843
Now, for Windows it was possible to find educational software packages
for Logo, no shortage, there are thousands,

41
00:02:44,843 --> 00:02:48,010
but here educational software comes naturally together with the OS

42
00:02:48,010 --> 00:02:52,852
Everything is in Hebrew, the children do not need to think
too much how to do it.

43
00:02:52,852 --> 00:02:57,490
I tell them "Click here and here and here"
and then they can work independently.

44
00:02:57,613 --> 00:02:59,859
Each child has his own account on the server

45
00:02:59,859 --> 00:03:02,904
so he can save his files at his own directory,

46
00:03:02,921 --> 00:03:06,006
He has his own corner in the computer, he designs
his desktop however he wants to

47
00:03:06,006 --> 00:03:09,643
If you look around, you will see -
there are a variety of designed desktops.

48
00:03:09,643 --> 00:03:14,340
For 15,000NIS (about $3400) you create classroom having
30 workstations
[Hamakor helped reduce costs with hardware donations from businesses]

49
00:03:14,340 --> 00:03:18,917
Several pupils learn programming - at beginning it
was only 4th,5th,6th grades, who learned Logo

50
00:03:18,917 --> 00:03:23,351
Afterwards, also 2nd and 3rd grades joined, and amazingly
they write unbelievable code.

51
00:03:23,351 --> 00:03:25,538
Only a moment, yes Yaheli?

52
00:03:25,538 --> 00:03:31,443
Yaheli: how much is 350 divided by 2?
Shay: how much is three hundred *and fifty* divided by 2?

53
00:03:31,443 --> 00:03:34,446
How did you reach 350 divided by 2?

54
00:03:34,446 --> 00:03:40,288
He asked me which angle to lower the turtle from among
360 degrees which it can move to

55
00:03:40,288 --> 00:03:44,498
(The turtle is Logo's graphical cursor)
to complete the exercise which I gave him

56
00:03:44,498 --> 00:03:48,195
which is to draw with one line a house with X inside.

57
00:03:48,195 --> 00:03:52,320
Interviewer: with one line?
Shay: yes, as if without raising the turtle and without redrawing lines.

58
00:03:53,157 --> 00:03:56,364
Interviewer: not a trivial exercise.
Shay: not trivial. In which grade are you, Yaheli?

59
00:03:56,364 --> 00:03:58,449
Yaheli: 2nd grade.
Shay: 2nd grade the child!

60
00:03:58,449 --> 00:04:01,389
Pupils: I did not understand... [speaking with Shay]

61
00:04:01,471 --> 00:04:11,667
Shay: you may go and I... [speaking with pupils]

62
00:04:11,667 --> 00:04:16,588
Interviewer: if someone wants to promote this project
and his technical knowledge is mostly Windows-based?

63
00:04:16,588 --> 00:04:21,305
We will help 1 to 1 1/2 days to set it up in classroom;

64
00:04:21,346 --> 00:04:24,553
Thus far, few volunteers chipped in everytime installations
were needed.

65
00:04:24,553 --> 00:04:30,151
For support, he will need 2-3 days to understand the basic
idea, and if he wants to go deeper into it,

66
00:04:30,151 --> 00:04:33,134
Interviewer: then is there a support phone?
Shay: there is a support phone, there is E-mail,

67
00:04:33,134 --> 00:04:37,667
there are very large support groups in
www.whatsup.co.il, no problems.

68
00:04:37,667 --> 00:04:41,100
Interviewer: how reliable is the system, how many times...
Shay: so far it did not crash yet.

69
00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:43,961
Interviewer: viruses, such problems?
Shay: there are no viruses in Linux.

70
00:04:43,961 --> 00:04:48,698
Interviewer: no viruses in Linux?
Shay: no, there is something called worms, I did not see them here yet...

71
00:04:48,698 --> 00:04:54,461
Each one has his own account,
and if he damages his account or erases anything,

72
00:04:54,624 --> 00:04:58,953
in one and quarter minutes I reinitialize his
account and he is back to starting point.

73
00:04:58,953 --> 00:05:02,752
If they break the admin password - this
is a different story...

74
00:05:02,752 --> 00:05:09,206
but I will be very, very glad if they do :-)
Interviewer: yes, we'll learn from them.

75
00:05:09,206 --> 00:05:13,495
Shay: nu, what, where is your problem?
What do you need to do?

76
00:05:13,495 --> 00:05:15,373
Yaheli: do not know... shorten so that it will be...

77
00:05:15,373 --> 00:05:20,846
Shay: you know what else you can do?
Change here the angle at bit - but wait a moment...

78
00:05:20,846 --> 00:05:28,221
For more details about the way also your children can
enjoy the advantages of a Linux computer lb, you are
invited to contact "Hamakor"
= www.hamakor.org.il =

79
00:05:28,221 --> 00:05:35,984
Photography: Ram-on Agmon www.qac.co.il
Editing: Ram-on Agmon, Eran Vered
Produced as volunteer effort for "Hamakor"

80
00:05:36,186 --> 00:05:38,862
= You are invited to copy, duplicate and distribute =
All rights broken

81
00:05:38,862 --> 00:05:41,355
www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html

82
00:05:41,355 --> 00:05:47,789
Participated:
Itay, Yaheli, Yoel, Noam, Adi, Michael, Yonathan, Lior ...

83
00:05:47,789 --> 00:05:51,610
Participated:
Shay, Thaya, Tomer L., Tomer T., Itush, Loten, Raal

84
00:05:51,610 --> 00:05:58,596
Captions: Beni Cherniavsky
English translation: Omer Zak

85
00:06:04,705 --> 00:06:08,096
www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html

--=-KJkRYlPmT8iLmdmooQBe
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt
Content-Type: text/plain; name=democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

1
00:00:03,700 --> 00:00:07,498
= כיתה חופשיה בבית ספר דמוקרתי =

2
00:00:07,498 --> 00:00:14,077
[ילדים משחקים ומדברים]

3
00:00:14,077 --> 00:00:19,307
= מעבדת מחשבים מבוססת לינוקס =

4
00:00:19,553 --> 00:00:20,409
שי: בסדר?

5
00:00:23,470 --> 00:00:27,065
יופי. כמה זה 270 ועוד 360 חלקי 2?

6
00:00:27,065 --> 00:00:28,383
= בית הספר הדמוקרטי הוד השרון =
יהלי: ועוד?

7
00:00:28,454 --> 00:00:32,361
= בית הספר הדמוקרטי הוד השרון =
שי: אתה מחבר אותם, עושה חלקי 2 ואתה מגיע לאמצע.

8
00:00:32,402 --> 00:00:34,486
ראאל: בהתחלה לא ידעתי כלום,

9
00:00:34,568 --> 00:00:38,327
עכשיו אני יודע איך להפעיל את המחשב,

10
00:00:38,424 --> 00:00:41,039
אני יודע איך משתמשים בצב,

11
00:00:41,248 --> 00:00:43,432
מראיין: הצב? מה זה הצב?

12
00:00:43,432 --> 00:00:50,339
ראאל: כן, הצב זה תוכנה שעושים כל־מיני הוראות בתוכה

13
00:00:50,339 --> 00:00:52,769
מראיין: אתה יכול להראות לי?
ראאל: כן, הנה:

14
00:00:53,035 --> 00:00:56,610
FW זה קדימה

15
00:00:56,610 --> 00:01:00,103
שמאלה זה TL

16
00:01:00,204 --> 00:01:02,594
ימינה זה TR

17
00:01:03,205 --> 00:01:06,372
שי — אבא של יסמין:
כן?

18
00:01:06,372 --> 00:01:09,253
מראיין: אתה גם הורה וגם ...
שי: אני גם מורה בבית ספר.

19
00:01:09,253 --> 00:01:11,253
מראיין: ...גם הורה בבית־ספר?
שי: בוודאי.

20
00:01:11,253 --> 00:01:17,384
ואני גם סטודנט בחממה ליזמות חברתית חינוכית

21
00:01:17,384 --> 00:01:20,469
של המכון לחינוך דמוקרטי בסמינר הקיבוצים

22
00:01:20,469 --> 00:01:22,471
מראיין: אחרי זה יש עוד מורים שמחליפים אותך?

23
00:01:22,572 --> 00:01:25,903
שי: כן. המורה לתנ"ך, למשל, משתמשת במעבדה

24
00:01:25,903 --> 00:01:31,992
כי תלמידים עם קשיי למידה הרבה יותר קל להם
לתקתק עבודות על מחשב מאשר לכתוב על נייר

25
00:01:31,992 --> 00:01:35,669
ואז יוצא שילדים שעד עכשיו
לא היו עושים כלום, כותבים עבודות פתאום!

26
00:01:35,669 --> 00:01:41,247
הרעיון הבא זה להחשיך את החדר או את האולם
ועם מקרן לעשות פלנטריום על התקרה

27
00:01:42,636 --> 00:01:45,333
תאיה: בלוגו אני עושה...

28
00:01:45,333 --> 00:01:46,291
[איה! התפוצצתי!]

29
00:01:47,147 --> 00:01:56,402
תאיה: אני מנסה לעשות את לוח הכפל בעזרת REPEAT
ואני אוהבת את הכיתת מחשבים.

30
00:01:56,503 --> 00:01:58,055
[ילדים בשיעור חופשי גולשים באינטרנט]

31
00:01:58,136 --> 00:02:01,813
[איתי ונועם משחקים] נועם: יה! וואהו! יאהו!

32
00:02:02,139 --> 00:02:06,328
— זה ייטי, וזה קרגו — ויילד קרגו

33
00:02:06,328 --> 00:02:10,680
— ייטי זה רע חזק?
— מאוד, וגם ויילד קרגו

34
00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:17,158
שי: הכיתה נבנתה על שרת לינוקס ותחנות חלשות.
התחנות החלשות זה מ־486 עד פנטיום 2

35
00:02:17,158 --> 00:02:22,980
שקיבלנו תרומות מכל מיני חברות, את השרת תרמה
עמותת "המקור" ואנחנו הקמנו פה חדר מחשב.

36
00:02:22,980 --> 00:02:26,985
ראשית, הכי חשוב מבחינתי, מערכת ההפעלה
שאנחנו משתמשים בה היא לינוקס

37
00:02:27,067 --> 00:02:29,968
[הסבר לתומר על לולאות מחשב]
איזה סביבת עבודה בעלות אפסית לבית־ספר

38
00:02:29,968 --> 00:02:36,446
שום בעיה של יש לילדים (אפילו בחינם) את מערכת
ההפעלה פה, אבל בבית אם הם רוצים הם צריכים לגנוב אותה

39
00:02:36,547 --> 00:02:40,552
כיוון שלינוקס היא חינמית, אני יכול לחלק לילדים CD הביתה.

40
00:02:40,593 --> 00:02:44,843
עכשיו, גם ב־windows היה אפשר למצוא
לומדה ללוגו — לא חסר, יש אלפים,

41
00:02:44,843 --> 00:02:48,010
אבל פה לומדה באה עם מערכת ההפעלה, באופן טבעי,

42
00:02:48,010 --> 00:02:52,852
הכל בעברית, הילדים לא צריכים
יותר מדי לחשוב איך לעשות את זה

43
00:02:52,852 --> 00:02:57,490
אני אומר להם "תקליקו פה, פה ופה",
ומאז הם כבר יכולים לעבוד לבד.

44
00:02:57,613 --> 00:02:59,859
לכל ילד יש פה חשבון משלו על השרת

45
00:02:59,859 --> 00:03:02,904
כך שהוא יכול לשמור את הקבצים במקום משלו,

46
00:03:02,921 --> 00:03:06,006
יש לו פינה משלו במחשב, הוא מעצב
את שולחן העבודה איך שהוא רוצה

47
00:03:06,006 --> 00:03:09,643
אם תעבור אחרי זה , תראה —
יש פה שלל שולחנות עבודה מעוצבים.

48
00:03:09,643 --> 00:03:14,340
ב־15,000 שקל אתה מרים כיתה של 30 עמדות.
[עמותת המקור עזרה לצמצום העלויות הללו
באמצעות תרומות חומרה מעסקים]

49
00:03:14,340 --> 00:03:18,917
הרבה לומדים תיכנות — בהתחלה
זה היה רק ד', ה', ו' שלמדו לוגו

50
00:03:18,917 --> 00:03:23,351
ואחרי זה ב' וג' הצטרפו ולמרה הפלא,
הם כותבים קוד שזה לא יאמן.

51
00:03:23,351 --> 00:03:25,538
רק שניה — כן, יהלי?

52
00:03:25,538 --> 00:03:31,443
יהלי: כמה 350 לחלק ל־2?
שי: כמה זה שלוש־מאות *חמישים* לחלק ל־2?

53
00:03:31,443 --> 00:03:34,446
איך הגעת ל־350 לחלק ל־2?

54
00:03:34,446 --> 00:03:40,288
הוא שאל אותי באיזה זווית להוריד את הצב
מבין 360 המעלות שהוא יכול לנוע אליהם

55
00:03:40,288 --> 00:03:44,498
(הצב זה סמן הציור של הלוגו)
כדי להשלים את התרגיל שנתתי לו

56
00:03:44,498 --> 00:03:48,195
שזה לצייר בקו אחד בית עם X בפנים, בלוגו.

57
00:03:48,195 --> 00:03:52,320
מראיין: בקו אחד?
שי: כן, כאילו בלי להרים את הצו ובלי לחזור על קווים.

58
00:03:53,157 --> 00:03:56,364
מראיין: לא תרגיל פשוט.
שי: לא פשוט. באיזה כיתה אתה יהלי?

59
00:03:56,364 --> 00:03:58,449
יהלי: ב'.
שי: כיתה ב' הילד!

60
00:03:58,449 --> 00:04:01,389
תלמידים: לא הבנתי... [מדברים עם שי...]

61
00:04:01,471 --> 00:04:11,667
שי: אתה יכול ללכת ואני... [מדבר עם תלמידים...]

62
00:04:11,667 --> 00:04:16,588
מראיין: אם בן־אדם מעוניין להריץ את הפרוייקט הזה
והידע הטכני שלו נובע בעיקר מחלונות?

63
00:04:16,588 --> 00:04:21,305
נעזור לו בהתקנה יום–יום וחצי כדי להרים את זה בכיתה;

64
00:04:21,346 --> 00:04:24,553
מן הסתם, עד עכשיו כל ההתקנות התגייסו כמה חבר'ה.

65
00:04:24,553 --> 00:04:30,151
לגבי תמיכה, יקח לו יומיים–שלושה
להבין את הרעיון העיקרי, ואם הוא רוצה להכנס,

66
00:04:30,151 --> 00:04:33,134
מראיין: ואז יש טלפון?
שי: יש טלפון, יש אימייל,

67
00:04:33,134 --> 00:04:37,667
יש קבוצות תמיכה מאוד מאוד גדולות
ב־www.whatsup.co.il שתומכות בעניין, אין בעיה.

68
00:04:37,667 --> 00:04:41,100
מראיין: מה האמינות של המערכת, כמה...?
שי: היא עדיין לא נפלה!

69
00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:43,961
מראיין: וירוסים, בעיות כאלה?
שי: אין וירוסים בלינוקס.

70
00:04:43,961 --> 00:04:48,698
מראיין: אין וירוסים בלינוקס?
שי: לא, יש דבר שנקרא תולעים, אני עוד לא ראיתי פה...

71
00:04:48,698 --> 00:04:54,461
לכל אחד יש את החשבון שלו,
במידע והוא מזיק לחשבון שלו מוחק איזה משהו,

72
00:04:54,624 --> 00:04:58,953
בדקה ורבע אני מתאחל לו
את החשבון והוא חזר למצב התחלה.

73
00:04:58,953 --> 00:05:02,752
במידה והם פורצים את סיסמת
המנהל — זה כבר סיפור אחר...

74
00:05:02,752 --> 00:05:09,206
אבל זה אני מאוד, מאוד אשמח אם הם יעשו :-)
מראיין: כן, נלמד מהם.

75
00:05:09,206 --> 00:05:13,495
שי: נו, מה, איפה הבעיה שלך?
מה אתה צריך לעשות?

76
00:05:13,495 --> 00:05:15,373
יהלי: לא יודע... לקצר שזה יהיה...

77
00:05:15,373 --> 00:05:20,846
שי: אתה יודע מה עוד אתה יכול לעשות?
לשנות פה את הזווית קצת — אבל זה תכף...

78
00:05:20,846 --> 00:05:28,221
לפרטים נוספים על האופן שבו גם ילדיכם
יוכלו ליהנות מהיתרונות שבמעבדת לינוקס
אתם מוזמנים לפנות לעמותת המקור
= www.hamakor.org.il =

79
00:05:28,221 --> 00:05:35,984
צילום: רם־און אגמון www.qac.co.il
עריכה: רם־און אגמון, ערן ורד
הופק בהתנדבות עבור עמותת המקור

80
00:05:36,186 --> 00:05:38,862
= אתם מוזמנים להעתיק, לשכפל ולהפיץ =
כל הזכויות שבורות

81
00:05:38,862 --> 00:05:41,355
www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html

82
00:05:41,355 --> 00:05:47,789
השתתפו:
איתי, יהלי, יואל, נועם, עדי, ...

83
00:05:47,789 --> 00:05:51,610
השתתפו:
.. מיכאל, יונתן, ליאור, שי, תאיה, ...

84
00:05:51,610 --> 00:05:58,596
השתתפו:
.. תומר ל., תומר ת., איטוש, לוטן, ראאל

85
00:06:04,705 --> 00:06:08,096
www.hamakor.org.il/schools.html

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מה לגבי לתת אותם לגני ילדים ?

יש הרבה גננות שמשתמשות בדיסקים כחלק משיעורי היצירה (מחזירי אור וכו').

Orna Agmon wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:04:09 +0300
>> From: Shachar Shemesh <[email protected]>
>> To: Ha'makor Discussions list <[email protected]>
>> Subject: [windows-1255] ועד חדש
>>
>> לכבוד חברי המקור,
>>
>> כמו שחלקכם אולי יודעים, ביום ראשון האחרון נבחר ועד חדש לעמותה. הועד החדש
>> כולל את דותן מזור, נדב ויניק ואת כותב שורות אלו. אנחנו מקווים להצליח
>> להוציא את העמותה מהשפל המוראלי שבה היא נמצאת, בתקווה שיותר עזרה מצדכם.
>>
>> ללא קשר לנושא הנ"ל, הצטברו בציוד העמותה כמות גדולה של תקליטורים, ככל
>> הנראה לצרכי חלוקה. המסה המרכזית של תקליטורים היא של The Open CD גרסה 3.0
>> (קצת ישן) ושל Mandrakelinux 10.1ce. שאלתי לכם, חברי העמותה, היא האם יש
>> פה מישהו שמעוניין באחד משהשניים. אם לא יתקבלו קריאות נרגשות של "כן,
>> אני", הדיסקים יתוייקו, אחר כבוד, בפח האשפה הקרוב למקום המצאם הנוכחי.
>>
>> בתודה,
>> שחר שמש
>> ועד העמותה
>>
>
> אותה שאלה, גם בנוגע לדיסקים של אובונטו 3 עבור 64 ביט ו-PPC.
>
> Orna.
> --
> Orna Agmon http://ladypine.org/ http://haifux.org/~ladypine/
> ICQ: 348759096
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
>

--

Lior Kaplan
[email protected]
http://mirror.hamakor.org.il
http://mirror.iglu.org.il
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מה לגבי לתת אותם לגני ילדים ?

יש הרבה גננות שמשתמשות בדיסקים כחלק משיעורי היצירה (מחזירי אור וכו').

Orna Agmon wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:04:09 +0300
>> From: Shachar Shemesh <[email protected]>
>> To: Ha'makor Discussions list <[email protected]>
>> Subject: [windows-1255] ועד חדש
>>
>> לכבוד חברי המקור,
>>
>> כמו שחלקכם אולי יודעים, ביום ראשון האחרון נבחר ועד חדש לעמותה. הועד החדש
>> כולל את דותן מזור, נדב ויניק ואת כותב שורות אלו. אנחנו מקווים להצליח
>> להוציא את העמותה מהשפל המוראלי שבה היא נמצאת, בתקווה שיותר עזרה מצדכם.
>>
>> ללא קשר לנושא הנ"ל, הצטברו בציוד העמותה כמות גדולה של תקליטורים, ככל
>> הנראה לצרכי חלוקה. המסה המרכזית של תקליטורים היא של The Open CD גרסה 3.0
>> (קצת ישן) ושל Mandrakelinux 10.1ce. שאלתי לכם, חברי העמותה, היא האם יש
>> פה מישהו שמעוניין באחד משהשניים. אם לא יתקבלו קריאות נרגשות של "כן,
>> אני", הדיסקים יתוייקו, אחר כבוד, בפח האשפה הקרוב למקום המצאם הנוכחי.
>>
>> בתודה,
>> שחר שמש
>> ועד העמותה
>>
>
> אותה שאלה, גם בנוגע לדיסקים של אובונטו 3 עבור 64 ביט ו-PPC.
>
> Orna.
> --
> Orna Agmon http://ladypine.org/ http://haifux.org/~ladypine/
> ICQ: 348759096
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
>

--

Lior Kaplan
[email protected]
http://www.Guides.co.il

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Subject: Re: [Surprisingly, not a rant] Captions for Ram-On's movie about the
Hod-Hasharon computer class
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Omer Zak wrote:
> מצורפים בזה קבצי כיתוביות (*.srt) כדי להציג את הסרט של רם-און אגמון
> (גירסא של 6:04 דקות, אורך קובץ 55551624 תווים) עם כיתוביות.
>
> כמובן שהכיתוביות אינן ברמה מקצועית. אם מישהו רוצה לשפר את הגירסא העברית
> ו/או האנגלית - הוא מוזמן. לכיתוביות יש אותן זכויות היוצרים כמו לסרט
> המקורי.
>
> הקבצים הינם כדלקמן.
>
> הוכנו על ידי בני צ'רניאבסקי:
> democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.cp1255.srt - כיתוביות בעברית, קידוד
> CP-1255
> democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt - כיתוביות בעברית, קידוד
> UTF-8
>
> הוכן על ידי עומר זק ע"י תרגום הקבצים הנ"ל לאנגלית:
> democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.en.srt
>
> פקודת mplayer להצגת הסרט עם כיתוביות, בהנחה שהסרט וקובץ כיתוביות כבר
> הורדו למחשבך:
> mplayer -subcp utf8 \
> -sub democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt \
> democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.wmv \
> -font David -noflip-hebrew-commas
>
> אם אינך רואה אותיות עבריות, בדוק בעזרת fc-list איזה פונט TrueType עם
> עברית יש לך וכתוב את שמו במקום David בפקודה דלעיל.
>
> זמן עבודה שנדרש למשימת התרגום מעברית לאנגלית:
> סה"כ 85 כיתוביות.
> זמן תרגום - 50 דקות.
> משימות נלוות - התקנת mplayer ותיצורו, פתירת בעיות קטנות, צפייה בסרט כמה
> פעמים, דוא"ל - בערך שעה.
>
> מי שאחראי על אחסון הסרט באתר באינטרנט, בבקשה לשים את קבצי הכיתוביות יחד
> עם הסרט ולהודיע לי באיזה URL-ים הם נמצאים.

http://mirror.iglu.org.il/pub/movies/

--

Lior Kaplan
[email protected]
http://mirror.hamakor.org.il
http://mirror.iglu.org.il
http://mirror.isoc.org.il

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E L wrote:
> On 8/18/06, *Dotan Mazor* <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> בוקר טוב כולם,
>
>
> ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
> המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?
>
>
> דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע
> טיעון
> מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
> שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
> היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.
>
>
> אני לא אבל נגיד ש
> רוב האומנים בהיסטוריה לא נהיו מיליונרים
> ורובם עסקו בכך בתור מקצוע שני
אני לא מבין מאיפה בא הזילזול הזה?
כשאתה מתייחס ליצירה שלך, כמו תוכנה למשל, ומפיץ אותה עם הGPL
אז אתה מתעקש שיש לך זכות לקבוע מגבלות על דרך השימוש בה. כמו למשל: אסור
להפיץ תוכנה זו בלי קוד המקור
אסור לכלול אותה במוצרים שאינם חופשיים.
אבל אמן לדעתך אמור לשרת אותך כמו עבד נרצע, ואם הוא גם רוצה לאכול מדי
פעם, שיימצא "עבודה אמיתית"
הרי לא ייתכן שאותן מיומניויות שיש לו, שאתה נהנה מתוצרתן, שוות משהו.
>
>
> בהתאם להנחת בסיס זו, שמעוניינת שהעולם לא יפסיד את המגוון הנפלא של
> היצירות, יש למיסוי על האינטרנט כשל אחד ענק. זאת, כי הדרך היחידה לאמן
> לקבל את ה"תמלוגים" שלו מאותו המס, הוא להיות חבר באחד הארגונים
> שיקבלו נתח
> מאותו המס. משל "אם אתה רוצה לשווק את היצירות שלך בעצמך, או במסגרת
> ארגון
> שאינו מוכר על ידינו [המדינה לא תתחיל להתעסק עם כל חברת מדיה שיש לה 10
> אמנים], אז כדאי שתתחיל להתרגל לעובדה שלא תקבל כסף עבור היצירות שלך".
>
>
> מה?
> למה זו הדרך היחידה?
> זה כל כך מסובך להקים רשות שבה אומנים יכולים להרשם?
קוראים לה אקו"ם - והיא מגינה על היוצרים , קטנים וגדולים.
אותו אלמנט של חלוקת המיסוי הקבוע בין היוצרים הוא מה שנקרא היום תשלום
תמלוגים.
אז אחרי כל הצעקות הגעתם להצעות שמשמעותן הן - תשלום תמלוגים ליוצרים -
וזה מה שהם רוצים סה"כ

> אתה יודע כמה קשה היום לחברות קטנות לקדם את היצרים שלהם וגלגלץ?
> הסתכלת על עצאות חוק דומות ברחבי העולם?
>
> אלי

--
Thanks,
Uri
http;//translation.israel.net

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Shlomi Fish wrote:
> On Friday 18 August 2006 10:56, Dotan Mazor wrote:
>
>> בוקר טוב כולם,
>>
>>
>> ייתכן והכיוון היותר נכון של דיון מהסוג הזה, צריך להתחיל מהשאלה: מה היא
>> המטרה שהמונח "הגנה על זכויות יוצרים" בא למלא?
>>
>>
>> דווקא בראיונות עם אמנים, ולא עם החבר'ה שבאמת עושים את הכסף, נשמע טיעון
>> מאוד מעניין לטובת הגנה על זכויותיהם. הם אומרים: "אם לא תגנו על הזכויות
>> שיש לנו ביצירות שלנו, אז לא נוכל להתפרנס מהיצירה, *והעולם יפסיד* את
>> היצירות שלנו". ואני מסכים עם זה מכל לב.
>>
>
> זה מעניין. לי בתור אומן (ראה למשל - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ ) ברור
> שהמטרות העיקרית שלי ביצירה הן משום שאני נהנה מזה, משום שאני מרגיש שאני חייב
> לכתוב את מה שעולה לי בראש, ומשום שאני רוצה שמספר רב ככל האפשר של אנשים יקראו
> את מה שאני כותב ויחוו את החומר. עד עכשיו הרווחתי מעט מאוד כסף מהיצירות שלי
> (שרובן נמצאות על הרשת ורובן אפילו עם רשיון חופשי).
>
הסיבות שלך הן הסיבות שלך, הסיבות שלי הן הסיבות שלי והסיבות של בוב הן
הסיבות של בוב.
לכתוב מדי פעם זה נחמד, רבים מאיתנו עושים זאת, הדיון הרלוונטי יותר הוא
לגבי האנשים שהיצירה בחרה אותם ללכת בדרך היצירה כדרך חיים.

> אני מאמין שחלק גדול מהאמנים האחרים גם מרגישים כך. ולעדות ראו מסמך זה:
>
> http://xrl.us/qvoj
>
> המתאר מקומות רבים בהם ניתן למצוא אומנות חופשית או חופשית למחצה.
>
> כפי שידוע, מרבית האמנים בעבר ובימינו לא הצליחו להתפרנס מאומנותם בלבד. אולם, זה
> נכון שמרבית האומנים הגדולים בעבר כן נעשו ידועים בתקופתם ( ראה
> http://www.neo-tech.com/advantages/advantage34.html ).
>
> מה רציתי לומר? כפי שטענתי כאן:
>
> http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/case-for-file-swapping/
>
> אסור למחוקק לאסור על הפצה ושימוש לא מסחריים של יצירות המוגנות בזכויות יוצרים.
> נסיון להילחם בכך נועד לכשלון, ורק יגרום לאנטגוניזם נגד התובעים. לאחרונה יש
> נסיונות להעביר חוקים שמנסים שהעתקת תוכן באינטרנט תהיה עבירה פלילית ושהמשטרה
> תצטרך לאכוף זאת. תגידו לי - האם למשטרה אין מספיק עבודה עם כל מקרי הרצח,
> הגניבה והאונס הקיימים, שהם צריכים גם לרדוף אחרי ילדים בני עשר שמורידים שירים
> שהם אוהבים מהאינטרנט?
>
> בנוסף, כפי שאנשים רבים הראו, האינטרנט מהווה אפיק מצוין לשיווק יצירותיהם,
> ולגרום לכך שיותר אנשים ידעו עליהם, מה שמאפשר להם הצלחה ראשונה גם בלי עזרת
> המפיצים.
>
> בכבוד רב,
>
> שלומי פיש
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish [email protected]
> Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
>
> Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
> destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
>

--
Thanks,
Uri
http;//translation.israel.net

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From [email protected] Sat Aug 19 09:28:33 2006
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 12:28:30 +0300
From: "Shlomi Israel" <[email protected]>
To: "Lior Kaplan" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Surprisingly, not a rant] Captions for Ram-On's movie about the Hod-Hasharon computer class
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הערות:

היה כתוב שם:
"במידע והוא מזיק לחשבון שלו מוחק איזה משהו,"

אני מניח שזה צריך להיות במידה ולא במידע ;)

לפחות אצלי ב־
VLC
הכתוביות הופיעו רק 5 שניות בערך לאחר שהדברים נאמרו, אבל יכול להיות שזו בעיה ב־
VLC.

שלומי

On 8/19/06, Lior Kaplan <[email protected]> wrote:
> Omer Zak wrote:
> > מצורפים בזה קבצי כיתוביות (*.srt) כדי להציג את הסרט של רם-און אגמון
> > (גירסא של 6:04 דקות, אורך קובץ 55551624 תווים) עם כיתוביות.
> >
> > כמובן שהכיתוביות אינן ברמה מקצועית. אם מישהו רוצה לשפר את הגירסא העברית
> > ו/או האנגלית - הוא מוזמן. לכיתוביות יש אותן זכויות היוצרים כמו לסרט
> > המקורי.
> >
> > הקבצים הינם כדלקמן.
> >
> > הוכנו על ידי בני צ'רניאבסקי:
> > democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.cp1255.srt - כיתוביות בעברית, קידוד
> > CP-1255
> > democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt - כיתוביות בעברית, קידוד
> > UTF-8
> >
> > הוכן על ידי עומר זק ע"י תרגום הקבצים הנ"ל לאנגלית:
> > democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.en.srt
> >
> > פקודת mplayer להצגת הסרט עם כיתוביות, בהנחה שהסרט וקובץ כיתוביות כבר
> > הורדו למחשבך:
> > mplayer -subcp utf8 \
> > -sub democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.utf8.srt \
> > democraty_hod_hasaron_linux_class.wmv \
> > -font David -noflip-hebrew-commas
> >
> > אם אינך רואה אותיות עבריות, בדוק בעזרת fc-list איזה פונט TrueType עם
> > עברית יש לך וכתוב את שמו במקום David בפקודה דלעיל.
> >
> > זמן עבודה שנדרש למשימת התרגום מעברית לאנגלית:
> > סה"כ 85 כיתוביות.
> > זמן תרגום - 50 דקות.
> > משימות נלוות - התקנת mplayer ותיצורו, פתירת בעיות קטנות, צפייה בסרט כמה
> > פעמים, דוא"ל - בערך שעה.
> >
> > מי שאחראי על אחסון הסרט באתר באינטרנט, בבקשה לשים את קבצי הכיתוביות יחד
> > עם הסרט ולהודיע לי באיזה URL-ים הם נמצאים.
>
> http://mirror.iglu.org.il/pub/movies/
>
> --
>
> Lior Kaplan
> [email protected]
> http://mirror.hamakor.org.il
> http://mirror.iglu.org.il
> http://mirror.isoc.org.il
>
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>

--
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This was written in response to some of the texts published here:
http://www.iglu.org.il/wiki/index.php/Israeli_DMCA_Law

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: copyright
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:12:59 +0200
From: Drora Bruck <[email protected]>
To: Uri Bruck <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>

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