It's not a question of right or wrong for me here. Did you ever
have a friend who was born-again and wouldn't stop talking about
Jesus? Well, yeah. It's like that. == You're not seeing the
forest through all the trees. I'm agnostic. I know many people
that are agnostic, even within religious groups. The "true
believer" is far less common than one might think. But... when
the new atheist tone-and-style came about, it reminded (and
reminds me) too much of several encounters with what used to be
referred to as "Jesus freaks". It's the unrelenting zeal. I'm
trying to be helpful to you guys here. Something weird happens
when people agree with each other excessively. Groups form. The
groups get their own buzzwords, their own style. They get their
own sense of humor that becomes unique to their own kind. This
sense of humor makes sense to those within the group. But those
on the outside, it's weird. == Truth matters to me too. Social
justice matters to me too. I'll even say, as much as I hate to
admit it, yes, politics matters too. All of those things are
important. It's just... the whole true believer thing. It's a
turn off. That's all I was trying to get across. == If you're
debating with a True Believer Jesus freak and adopt the same
attitude and style as the True Believer not-Jesus-freak.. that's
fine. But I'm not any of that. But I feel pushed over into that
side at the mere mention of anything religious, because I'm not
a 100% True Atheist. I'm Agnostic. Some say that I have to
choose: atheist agnostic or theist agnostic. Why? I'm agnostic.
I don't know. People trying to convince me either way start
looking silly after a while.. == If all you have is a hammer,
everything starts looking like a nail. I'm not a nail. == If
it's your thing, I'm not stopping anything here. I'm trying to
build up, not tear down. It's not the message. It's the
methodology. New Atheism is becoming an isolated group from the
rest of society, even from other atheists and from agnostics.
The days of "I'm an independent mind speaking independently and
these are the conclusions I reached on my own accord due to
study and reflection and I am not a part of any group" are gone
now, when the same memes are shared, the same arguments are put
forth. I mean, if it's your thing go ahead. But I'd want someone
to tell me if my independent style was suddenly Hipster and that
people might roll their eyes at me and say, "Oh look, here's
another Hipster Clone". It might not make me change my style: I
might happen to LIKE the Hipster look anyway. But I'd still like
to know if people were looking at me as a Hipster clone. That's
all I'm saying. == I'd ALMOST agree to being an NDT clone,
except I love history and he's AWFUL at history. Man, is he
awful at history.... and as a Science fanboy (that's his job and
pays the $$$... he does the same thing but with Science: A+b+c+d
and THAT'S WHY: *SCIENCE*! and people cheer. I mean, that's his
job - the advocate/activism thing... I guess I mean, forget
religion/science/atheism and all that: What am I an
activist/advocate of? == I didn't invent the group name. I don't
like stereotypes. This is why I'm pointing it out, Scott. It's
almost like a package deal. It's got cultish qualities. I'm sure
it's purposeful and I suppose, as points out, maybe it's a
historical necessity as it was with the LBGT movement and the
earlier feminist movement. I'm not throwing anybody under buses
here. I almost hesitate to criticize at all because I know I'll
get some very annoyed responses from a LOT of people. And
perhaps that's it, Scott. Maybe it's become Internet Status Quo
and I'm a contrary sort tongue emoticon It's almost like it
can't handle the slightest criticism without offense. == Anyway,
I have lunch to go to. I suppose I'm like the grandmother who
says to the grandson, "I know you're into this furry thing but
must you wear the full fursuit when we go out to lunch together?
How about just the tail and the cat ears?" == We're people, not
arguments. I'm not in a courtroom here. Yeah, I suppose it's the
uppity bit. I mean, please tell me if I'm that way about
something. I KNOW I'm uppity about some things, but I cant'
always see it. == Absolutely. Part of communication is
negotiating not only meaning, but sensemaking. It's a
complicated process involving many factors. == Now, I'm
obviously vehement about _something_. I'm being just as
"freakish" as any claims I'm making about others. Now here's my
question: What am I being vehement about? [whether or not you
agree with it?] == ==
