S D F - 1  Bulletin Board
================================================================================
BBOARD     POSTS TOPIC
================================================================================
SPACE      [0001] The meek will inherit the earth...
FORSALE    [0003] SDF Marketplace buy/sell/trade
ANONYMOUS  [0019] Anonymous people talking about strange things, anonymously
ARPA       [0014] Member Discussions, Projects and Fun
HELPDESK   [0033] Users Helping Users
REQUESTS   [0025] Software Package Install and Update Requests
GENERAL    [0038] Random Discussions, News and Thoughts
WEB        [0005] Making WWW pages.
GOPHER     [0003] Port 70 - before The Web
SHARED     [0004] Sharing SDF resources responsibly, users respecting users
HUMOR      [0009] It's funny. Laugh.
BITCH      [0010] a bitch board for airing the grievances of everyday life.
BSD        [0007] BSD Discussions and Announcements
MUSIC      [0005] % MUSIC does not exist. -- wtf
GAMES      [0003] Games and Puzzles
UNIX       [0014] UNIX stuff
URBEX      [0003] Urban Exploration
ANNOUNCE   [0004] System Announcements and News
WINDOWS    [0003] By Micro$oft
OBITS      [0003] Obituaries
DSL        [0001] DSL related stuff
UK         [0001] Life in the dodgy islands
MOTD       [0005] MOTD.ORG Web 29.01a in SDF style ;-)
DIALUP     [0002] SDF's TENEX Dialup Service
GOD        [0006] GOD does exist
WARMING    [0003] we must save the earth from global warming!!! you must help
CODING     [0007] Discussions about programming in various languages...
HARDWARE   [0011] Fried Chips and Dip
DISCOVERY  [0005] What did you discover you could do on SDF today?
JOBS       [0002] employment related stuff
POLITICS   [0001] Obama will win in 2008
MAC        [0006] Macs, Mac OS X, & Apple Discussions
PANIC      [0001] the usa is crashing! abandon ship!
ODDQUIRKS  [0003] Your strange and odd quirks...
IPV6       [0000] IPv6 is coming. It's arrival is mandatory.
LOCAL      [0002] Local bboard info
POLLS      [0006] SDFers love polls
COOKING    [0005] Food Overload
INVEST     [0001] Stocks, Bonds, Savings, Mutual Funds and the like
BANKING    [0002] questinos about banks
BOOKCLUB   [0001] SDF Book Club
DOH        [0001] your not so bright moments
CRYPTO     [0001] Cryptography, codes and encryption
LINUX      [0002] Why did the penguin cross the road?
MATH       [0002] Math discussion.
MORSE      [0002] morse code and ham radio operators
MUD        [0001] exit
RELIGION   [0003] Shalom Aleichem
TWENEX     [0001] SDF user contributed software
VPN        [0002] SDF VPN Use and Configuration Discussions

<GENERAL> Command: ARCHIVE

SDF BBOARD Archives

   1994   1995   1996   1997   1998   1999   2000   2001   2002   2003   2004
   2005   2006   2007   2008

Which year?
You are now in the 2006 archives.

<none> Command: SEARCH (KEYWORD) % Searching on avoyager .........TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Two things are clear
DATE:    19-Oct-06 21:08:02
HOST:    sverige

1. If we had a different smj, we'd have a different SDF.
2. There is no other SDF.

Less clear to everybody, but true for me, is:
This SDF is way more better than just "fine".



<ARPA.19-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: savvis UE UK
DATE:    08-Mar-06 04:28:53
HOST:    sverige

more of a grumble than a bitch ...

but when the lag is untenable, and packet loss exceeds 15%, and traceroutes
look (exactly)like this (with IPs mixed into the lines :

10  204.70.192.46  10 ms 204.70.192.98  40 ms  30 ms
11  204.70.192.98  40 ms 204.70.192.49  40 ms 204.70.192.98  30 ms
12  204.70.192.49  30 ms 204.70.193.9  30 ms 204.70.192.49  40 ms
13  216.90.2.126  100 ms  90 ms 204.70.193.9  30 ms
14  192.94.73.4  100 ms 216.90.2.126  120 ms *

.. I tend to grumble

sprintlink serves a much cleaner route. (than savvis)

ref. traceroute.org

<BITCH.08-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: savvis UE UK
DATE:    08-Mar-06 04:28:53
HOST:    sverige

more of a grumble than a bitch ...

but when the lag is untenable, and packet loss exceeds 15%, and traceroutes
look (exactly)like this (with IPs mixed into the lines :

10  204.70.192.46  10 ms 204.70.192.98  40 ms  30 ms
11  204.70.192.98  40 ms 204.70.192.49  40 ms 204.70.192.98  30 ms
12  204.70.192.49  30 ms 204.70.193.9  30 ms 204.70.192.49  40 ms
13  216.90.2.126  100 ms  90 ms 204.70.193.9  30 ms
14  192.94.73.4  100 ms 216.90.2.126  120 ms *

.. I tend to grumble

sprintlink serves a much cleaner route. (than savvis)

ref. traceroute.org

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: paypal
DATE:    13-Feb-06 03:51:36
HOST:    sverige

here I am with a Verified VISA, and can't get PayPal to use it for sending
funds to SDF.

that sucks; and I'm pissed about it



<BITCH.13-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: paypal
DATE:    13-Feb-06 03:51:36
HOST:    sverige

here I am with a Verified VISA, and can't get PayPal to use it for sending
funds to SDF.

that sucks; and I'm pissed about it



.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: DVD Media and Recorders
DATE:    30-May-06 18:45:22
HOST:    sverige

Now that there is only 16x DVD-R media on the shelves, I discover that it
is not  writeable by my 8x burners; even though I regularly burn at only 2x
because the media otherwise fails too often.

I've nothing nice to say.

<BITCH.30-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: DVD Media and Recorders
DATE:    30-May-06 18:45:22
HOST:    sverige

Now that there is only 16x DVD-R media on the shelves, I discover that it
is not  writeable by my 8x burners; even though I regularly burn at only 2x
because the media otherwise fails too often.

I've nothing nice to say.

......TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: about that deity
DATE:    04-Nov-06 18:26:16
HOST:    sverige

Your predecessors believed that the deities caused the rain to fall and the
sun to rise.

You've learned that those events have other causes, within your perception
of your universe.

Some of your contemporarys believe that a deity can cause volcanoes,
tsunamis, and random acts of violence by humans.

You've learned that those events have other causes, within your perception
of your universe.

Some of your contemporarys believe that their deity is now dutifully
attending to their prayers and supplications.

You have marvelled at their persistence in the face of overwhelming
evidence to the contrary, and somewhat scornfully wondered if they are
neglecting their personal responsibilities.

Some of your contemporarys believe that their deity will one day appear
upon their porch and lead them onto a bus bound for some eternal glory.

You have observed that these things have not happened, within your
perception of your universe.

And you have not seen a deity within your perception of your universe, ....
EXCEPT ... within nearly all those who have gone before you, and so many of
those who surround you.

You might blame this deity, or any belief in it, for the apparent fact that
everybody is wrong about this except you; or for its not making itself
better known by, or understood by, you.

But to do so would be to acknowledge it, and you reject this conundrum, or
become crazed and irrational, which you of all people CANNOT abide.

Yet you know that there is SOMETHING which leads us to discover that the
earth is not flat, that the sun neither rises nor shines, that
earthquakes do not have anger, or revenge;

that SOMETHING leads us to wonder about those things which we do not
understand, and to love certain things above others, even to the point of
sacrifice.

You KNOW that there is imagination, and inspiration, and you do NOT know
its origins, causes or purposes,

even within your perception of your universe,

as it exists now,

not formerly.

The deity, it turns out,
is not just poorly understood;
it is terribly MISunderstood.

Seriously folks. More folks have a botched understanding of it than have a
lack of understanding of it.

And that's pretty much all which separates it from us; is its perfection,
toward which we may strive or stumble along our way.


<GENERAL.04-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: about that deity
DATE:    04-Nov-06 18:26:16
HOST:    sverige

Your predecessors believed that the deities caused the rain to fall and the
sun to rise.

You've learned that those events have other causes, within your perception
of your universe.

Some of your contemporarys believe that a deity can cause volcanoes,
tsunamis, and random acts of violence by humans.

You've learned that those events have other causes, within your perception
of your universe.

Some of your contemporarys believe that their deity is now dutifully
attending to their prayers and supplications.

You have marvelled at their persistence in the face of overwhelming
evidence to the contrary, and somewhat scornfully wondered if they are
neglecting their personal responsibilities.

Some of your contemporarys believe that their deity will one day appear
upon their porch and lead them onto a bus bound for some eternal glory.

You have observed that these things have not happened, within your
perception of your universe.

And you have not seen a deity within your perception of your universe, ....
EXCEPT ... within nearly all those who have gone before you, and so many of
those who surround you.

You might blame this deity, or any belief in it, for the apparent fact that
everybody is wrong about this except you; or for its not making itself
better known by, or understood by, you.

But to do so would be to acknowledge it, and you reject this conundrum, or
become crazed and irrational, which you of all people CANNOT abide.

Yet you know that there is SOMETHING which leads us to discover that the
earth is not flat, that the sun neither rises nor shines, that
earthquakes do not have anger, or revenge;

that SOMETHING leads us to wonder about those things which we do not
understand, and to love certain things above others, even to the point of
sacrifice.

You KNOW that there is imagination, and inspiration, and you do NOT know
its origins, causes or purposes,

even within your perception of your universe,

as it exists now,

not formerly.

The deity, it turns out,
is not just poorly understood;
it is terribly MISunderstood.

Seriously folks. More folks have a botched understanding of it than have a
lack of understanding of it.

And that's pretty much all which separates it from us; is its perfection,
toward which we may strive or stumble along our way.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Digital Cameras
DATE:    07-Jun-06 13:16:21
HOST:    sverige

I'm committed to purchasing a digital camera for a high school freshman
with little interest in the art of photography but eager to enjoy the
"capturing of the moment". It's unlikely that she will ever have anything
she wants printed larger than 5"x8" or want to zoom in >4x post-photo.

I'm thinking 5 Megapixels is plenty, and storage not much of an issue, and
connectivity probably now universally USB or card reader, so other concerns
are quality, durability, battery life, charging requirements, and anything
you can illuminate for me.

Thank you.

<GENERAL.07-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Digital Cameras
DATE:    07-Jun-06 13:16:21
HOST:    sverige

I'm committed to purchasing a digital camera for a high school freshman
with little interest in the art of photography but eager to enjoy the
"capturing of the moment". It's unlikely that she will ever have anything
she wants printed larger than 5"x8" or want to zoom in >4x post-photo.

I'm thinking 5 Megapixels is plenty, and storage not much of an issue, and
connectivity probably now universally USB or card reader, so other concerns
are quality, durability, battery life, charging requirements, and anything
you can illuminate for me.

Thank you.

........TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Good One, Beaker !!
DATE:    01-Apr-06 03:00:28
HOST:    sverige

This is worth sharing, from the 'helpdesk' ...

How do you get a file?

[ RESPONSE: 20060331015447 UNIX response by beaker@sverige ]

How to get a file to,

come home:      mv /<path_to_file>/file ~/

reveal it's inner self:         cat file

show you it's head:     head file

show it's back side:    tail file

reveal it's self slowly:        reed file

give backtalk:          rev file

speak like a bovine:    cat file | cowsay

speak loudly:   tr '[a-z]' '[A-Z]' < file

go away and never return:       rm -f file

tell you what's permissible:    ls -l file

talk in morse code:     morse file

fill out a punch card:  bcd file

go tell it to someone else:     cat file | mail -s "subject" <recipient>


HTH,

Beaker

<HELPDESK.01-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Good One, Beaker !!
DATE:    01-Apr-06 03:00:28
HOST:    sverige

This is worth sharing, from the 'helpdesk' ...

How do you get a file?

[ RESPONSE: 20060331015447 UNIX response by beaker@sverige ]

How to get a file to,

come home:      mv /<path_to_file>/file ~/

reveal it's inner self:         cat file

show you it's head:     head file

show it's back side:    tail file

reveal it's self slowly:        reed file

give backtalk:          rev file

speak like a bovine:    cat file | cowsay

speak loudly:   tr '[a-z]' '[A-Z]' < file

go away and never return:       rm -f file

tell you what's permissible:    ls -l file

talk in morse code:     morse file

fill out a punch card:  bcd file

go tell it to someone else:     cat file | mail -s "subject" <recipient>


HTH,

Beaker

....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Backspace
DATE:    20-Feb-06 15:16:34
HOST:    sverige

My backspace key works ass expected and desired in the shell, in Pine, in
Pico/bboard, and elsewhere, but not in the helpdesk ap or more critically,
not in com. In those instances, that key generates a "^?" string rather
than the ctrl-H keystroke.

Would anybody care to explain this to me?

Is there some configuration I can apply which will remedy this situation?

Thanks,
-avo

<HELPDESK.20-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Backspace
DATE:    20-Feb-06 15:16:34
HOST:    sverige

My backspace key works ass expected and desired in the shell, in Pine, in
Pico/bboard, and elsewhere, but not in the helpdesk ap or more critically,
not in com. In those instances, that key generates a "^?" string rather
than the ctrl-H keystroke.

Would anybody care to explain this to me?

Is there some configuration I can apply which will remedy this situation?

Thanks,
-avo

....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Foreign Media Reaction
DATE:    10-Dec-05 21:16:04
HOST:    sverige

on Iceland ... /tmp/Foreign_Media_Reaction.tar.gz

lots of content there for you to examine; grep; play textfile games with to
exercise the new array.

"Each business day, the U.S. Department of State's Office of Research
produces an Issue Focus of foreign media commentary on a major foreign
policy issue or related event. These reports provide a global round-up of
editorials and op-ed commentary from major newspapers, magazines and
broadcast media around the world. Following a one-page analysis of the
commentary, readers will find block quotes sorted by geographic region and
country. An Issue Focus normally covers one to three weeks of editorial
opinion."

This product was very recently discontinued. Here is the only archive of
which I am aware.

Thanks for supporting SDF.



<ICELAND.10-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Foreign Media Reaction
DATE:    10-Dec-05 21:16:04
HOST:    sverige

on Iceland ... /tmp/Foreign_Media_Reaction.tar.gz

lots of content there for you to examine; grep; play textfile games with to
exercise the new array.

"Each business day, the U.S. Department of State's Office of Research
produces an Issue Focus of foreign media commentary on a major foreign
policy issue or related event. These reports provide a global round-up of
editorials and op-ed commentary from major newspapers, magazines and
broadcast media around the world. Following a one-page analysis of the
commentary, readers will find block quotes sorted by geographic region and
country. An Issue Focus normally covers one to three weeks of editorial
opinion."

This product was very recently discontinued. Here is the only archive of
which I am aware.

Thanks for supporting SDF.



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Console configuration
DATE:    15-Jul-06 14:25:56
HOST:    sverige

I have three important questions, for which I seek and have not discovered
documentation.

On my brand new grub/debian installation, runlevel 2, no gui,x,desktop, ...

A. How do I modify console (terminal window) resolution? (i.e. from 640x480
to 800x600)

B. How do I modify console size? (i.e. from 80x24 to 80x43)

C. How do I set fg/bg/hl colors? (only interested in foreground,
background, and hilight)

Thanks for any pointers. I'll be able to move along much faster after
resolving these basic issues.

<LINUX.15-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Console configuration
DATE:    15-Jul-06 14:25:56
HOST:    sverige

I have three important questions, for which I seek and have not discovered
documentation.

On my brand new grub/debian installation, runlevel 2, no gui,x,desktop, ...

A. How do I modify console (terminal window) resolution? (i.e. from 640x480
to 800x600)

B. How do I modify console size? (i.e. from 80x24 to 80x43)

C. How do I set fg/bg/hl colors? (only interested in foreground,
background, and hilight)

Thanks for any pointers. I'll be able to move along much faster after
resolving these basic issues.

.....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    27-Apr-06 13:46:54
HOST:    sverige

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0426-22.htm

is a commentary article which introduces the flash:

http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/animations/wwjd.swf

<PEACE.27-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    27-Apr-06 13:46:54
HOST:    sverige

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0426-22.htm

is a commentary article which introduces the flash:

http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/animations/wwjd.swf

....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: kernel loads
DATE:    19-May-06 00:40:17
HOST:    sverige

I just want to say *thanks*, Stephen, for all your efforts here; not only
in quantity, but most emphatically in quality!

Not that I'm qualified to judge you, but I am favorably impressed and
respectful of your talents provided here.

If I were a grandmother down the road, I'd bake you a pie and buy you
socks.

But from who and where I am, I'll just say "Thanks" and donate what and
when I can.

<REQUESTS.19-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: kernel loads
DATE:    19-May-06 00:40:17
HOST:    sverige

I just want to say *thanks*, Stephen, for all your efforts here; not only
in quantity, but most emphatically in quality!

Not that I'm qualified to judge you, but I am favorably impressed and
respectful of your talents provided here.

If I were a grandmother down the road, I'd bake you a pie and buy you
socks.

But from who and where I am, I'll just say "Thanks" and donate what and
when I can.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: it was way back
DATE:    07-Jul-06 19:42:28
HOST:    sverige

way back when citizens were converted to consumers and informed "let the
buyer beware", when the foundation was created for sustaining an
environment of fraud and deception, and establishing a culture which should
accept fraud and deception as "the way of life" as if it were natural and
unavoidable.

<RIPOFFS.07-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: it was way back
DATE:    07-Jul-06 19:42:28
HOST:    sverige

way back when citizens were converted to consumers and informed "let the
buyer beware", when the foundation was created for sustaining an
environment of fraud and deception, and establishing a culture which should
accept fraud and deception as "the way of life" as if it were natural and
unavoidable.

....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: hurricanes and global warming
DATE:    01-Dec-05 22:11:48
HOST:    sverige

Recently the NWS gave a press event remarking on the 2005 hurricane season
and stating with confidence that 2006 would be little different. Again,
they made their assertion that global warming was not a factor, which seems
to be the dominant view of most ocean-atmosphere scientists. One reason
regularly made in connection with this disjunction is that the warm gulf
current is on its own cycle which is  minimally influenced by air temps.

However, in this press conference, they also said that part of the reason
the '05 season was so active was that strong westerlies did shear apart the
advancing storms; and it is *that* statement which may reconnect the global
warming with the hurricane season, because it is temperature differences
which create the winds.

Equatorial winds blow from east to west because the earth is rotating west
to east beneath (and with) the atmosphere. Other than that, winds blow in a
direction from high pressures toward low pressures, these being created by
differential heating of the equatorial and polar reegions. "Warm air rises"
in the equatorial regions creating relative low pressure at the surface;
while cold air in the polar regions descends into relative high pressure
areas on the surface and then blow toward the equator.

Coriolis effect turns both the equatorial easterlies and the polar
northerlies, while higher friction at the surface slows the surface winds
relative to the upper level winds, which has a direct impact on the
direction of those winds, ... and the whole lower atmosphere is stirred up
into a constantly morphing swirl for which the predominant influence is
...

temperature. specifically air temperature, which indeed is influenced by
the temperatures of the land and water surfaces beneath it.

Hopefully, Jeff or other more expert than I will correct me where I'm
wrong.

My point here would be that the "strength" of the hurricane season is a
result of many influences; and that any global warming would perhaps affect
the season more than it would affect any one of those individual
influences. Notably, global warming wouldn't impact the temperatures of the
gulf current or open ocean surface as much as it would impact the winds
which drive and destroy a tropical storm.


<WEATHER.01-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: hurricanes and global warming
DATE:    01-Dec-05 22:11:48
HOST:    sverige

Recently the NWS gave a press event remarking on the 2005 hurricane season
and stating with confidence that 2006 would be little different. Again,
they made their assertion that global warming was not a factor, which seems
to be the dominant view of most ocean-atmosphere scientists. One reason
regularly made in connection with this disjunction is that the warm gulf
current is on its own cycle which is  minimally influenced by air temps.

However, in this press conference, they also said that part of the reason
the '05 season was so active was that strong westerlies did shear apart the
advancing storms; and it is *that* statement which may reconnect the global
warming with the hurricane season, because it is temperature differences
which create the winds.

Equatorial winds blow from east to west because the earth is rotating west
to east beneath (and with) the atmosphere. Other than that, winds blow in a
direction from high pressures toward low pressures, these being created by
differential heating of the equatorial and polar reegions. "Warm air rises"
in the equatorial regions creating relative low pressure at the surface;
while cold air in the polar regions descends into relative high pressure
areas on the surface and then blow toward the equator.

Coriolis effect turns both the equatorial easterlies and the polar
northerlies, while higher friction at the surface slows the surface winds
relative to the upper level winds, which has a direct impact on the
direction of those winds, ... and the whole lower atmosphere is stirred up
into a constantly morphing swirl for which the predominant influence is
...

temperature. specifically air temperature, which indeed is influenced by
the temperatures of the land and water surfaces beneath it.

Hopefully, Jeff or other more expert than I will correct me where I'm
wrong.

My point here would be that the "strength" of the hurricane season is a
result of many influences; and that any global warming would perhaps affect
the season more than it would affect any one of those individual
influences. Notably, global warming wouldn't impact the temperatures of the
gulf current or open ocean surface as much as it would impact the winds
which drive and destroy a tropical storm.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: 2005 Global Overview
DATE:    20-Dec-05 13:02:15
HOST:    sverige

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/s2548.htm

<WEATHER.20-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: 2005 Global Overview
DATE:    20-Dec-05 13:02:15
HOST:    sverige

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/s2548.htm

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: hydrogen as energy
DATE:    23-Mar-06 19:02:16
HOST:    sverige

here's an easy to read, informative, article describing the state of
"hydrogen economy" and its applicability as a fuel/energy source.

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/oo/sidebars/front/index_Flannery.html

this post, and  board, are tack-on follow-up  to original discussion now
in  2006 archive.


<YELLOW.23-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: hydrogen as energy
DATE:    23-Mar-06 19:02:16
HOST:    sverige

here's an easy to read, informative, article describing the state of
"hydrogen economy" and its applicability as a fuel/energy source.

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/oo/sidebars/front/index_Flannery.html

this post, and  board, are tack-on follow-up  to original discussion now
in  2006 archive.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 13:33:36
HOST:    sverige

If there was a decentralized technology by which communities could tap
inner-earth resources (ala geothermal) for conversion into various forms of
civilized energy needs starting with electricity, would it/we eventually
reduce the earth's mass enough so that it would drift into a larger orbit
away from the life-giving Sun and freeze over?


<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 13:33:36
HOST:    sverige

If there was a decentralized technology by which communities could tap
inner-earth resources (ala geothermal) for conversion into various forms of
civilized energy needs starting with electricity, would it/we eventually
reduce the earth's mass enough so that it would drift into a larger orbit
away from the life-giving Sun and freeze over?


.............TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    12-Sep-06 04:12:18
HOST:    sverige

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country... Corporations have been
enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the
money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working
upon the prejudices of people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands
and the Republic is destroyed." --U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, 1864

"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government
owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between
corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the
statesmanship of today." --U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, April 19,
1906

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition
of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military
industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced
power exists and will persist." --U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhouer,
January 17, 1961

"It takes a lot of degeneration before a country falls into dictatorship,
but we should avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings." --U.S.
Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, March 9, 2006

<ANONYMOUS.12-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    12-Sep-06 04:12:18
HOST:    sverige

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country... Corporations have been
enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the
money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working
upon the prejudices of people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands
and the Republic is destroyed." --U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, 1864

"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government
owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between
corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the
statesmanship of today." --U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, April 19,
1906

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition
of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military
industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced
power exists and will persist." --U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhouer,
January 17, 1961

"It takes a lot of degeneration before a country falls into dictatorship,
but we should avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings." --U.S.
Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, March 9, 2006

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    13-Sep-06 01:48:50
HOST:    sverige

freestateproject.org reminds me of when Nixon wanted to move all the
hippies to Vermont


<ANONYMOUS.13-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    13-Sep-06 01:48:50
HOST:    sverige

freestateproject.org reminds me of when Nixon wanted to move all the
hippies to Vermont


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    13-Sep-06 04:50:29
HOST:    sverige

Jelly beans were a Reagan/Dalek thing.
Reasonable folk favor jelly babies.

<ANONYMOUS.13-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    13-Sep-06 04:50:29
HOST:    sverige

Jelly beans were a Reagan/Dalek thing.
Reasonable folk favor jelly babies.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    14-Sep-06 11:48:27
HOST:    sverige

I don't forsee armed revolt against, of all things, the U.S. Government,
which has the most obscene and unnecessary quantity, and quality, of
effective combat apparatus available; and plenty enough people who actually
enjoy using that stuff against other people, even their own countrywomen.

Besides, the government isn't at fault; they're just the tools of business
and "the economy", which themselves are controlled by the financial,
weapons, transportation, and energy sectors; primarily the first. It can be
seen that many in government and society actually even worship the economy,
the money, and the power. But like alcoholism and debauchery, it's
something which is easeier to see from the outside than from within.

As it is currently setup, the vast civilian population, already repurposed
as consumers, assulted and manipulated with deceptions and fabrications, is
decreasingly dependent upon those economic and business interests, because
their costs of living are exceeding their incomes. They are spending less
because they have less. The essential qualities of life have been steadily
deteriorating since the 1950s. As consumers, they are no longer able to
sustain the demands of the producers.

Meanwhile, "business" continues to be stuck in a dependency upon perpetual
"growth" which cannot conceivably endure forever, and upon short term
profit over long term stability; and has given away its ability to produce
much of anything other than armaments. Very little of the essential
production required by a population is local any more.

With little concern for its citizens, and in the corrupt cash pockets of
its business affiliates, the corporate government is charging around the
planet exploiting every resource and population it can discover, generating
a vast "ill will" toward itself, and provoking (while supplying) many
militant types into armed conflict and agression, against itself, witnessed
in part by the attacks upon the World Trade Center. (by freedom loving
people)

There is now a convergence of impending, ineviatable, disruption of social
order, and of financial stability, which could easily enough, by fueling
each other, become a ollapse" of both within the United States. That IS the
momentum, and it is not hard to witness the rise of the "police state"
within the country's own borders.

Elsewhere, because the United States is no longer fit for the task, we can
bear witness to the rising up of the next "leader of the free world". The
human population needs leadership; it abhors rulership; because it is a
freedom loving species with imagination and conscience. Perhaps our next
leader will be, or currently is, the EU; perhaps China; perhaps the rest of
the American continent into which the US will fit much the same way as
Haiti does today. To be sure however, whoever may be fit for, and willing
to assume, the responsibility, will be met with an awesome resistance,
until the bullets run out.

---
well, .... YOU brought it up.

<ANONYMOUS.14-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    14-Sep-06 11:48:27
HOST:    sverige

I don't forsee armed revolt against, of all things, the U.S. Government,
which has the most obscene and unnecessary quantity, and quality, of
effective combat apparatus available; and plenty enough people who actually
enjoy using that stuff against other people, even their own countrywomen.

Besides, the government isn't at fault; they're just the tools of business
and "the economy", which themselves are controlled by the financial,
weapons, transportation, and energy sectors; primarily the first. It can be
seen that many in government and society actually even worship the economy,
the money, and the power. But like alcoholism and debauchery, it's
something which is easeier to see from the outside than from within.

As it is currently setup, the vast civilian population, already repurposed
as consumers, assulted and manipulated with deceptions and fabrications, is
decreasingly dependent upon those economic and business interests, because
their costs of living are exceeding their incomes. They are spending less
because they have less. The essential qualities of life have been steadily
deteriorating since the 1950s. As consumers, they are no longer able to
sustain the demands of the producers.

Meanwhile, "business" continues to be stuck in a dependency upon perpetual
"growth" which cannot conceivably endure forever, and upon short term
profit over long term stability; and has given away its ability to produce
much of anything other than armaments. Very little of the essential
production required by a population is local any more.

With little concern for its citizens, and in the corrupt cash pockets of
its business affiliates, the corporate government is charging around the
planet exploiting every resource and population it can discover, generating
a vast "ill will" toward itself, and provoking (while supplying) many
militant types into armed conflict and agression, against itself, witnessed
in part by the attacks upon the World Trade Center. (by freedom loving
people)

There is now a convergence of impending, ineviatable, disruption of social
order, and of financial stability, which could easily enough, by fueling
each other, become a ollapse" of both within the United States. That IS the
momentum, and it is not hard to witness the rise of the "police state"
within the country's own borders.

Elsewhere, because the United States is no longer fit for the task, we can
bear witness to the rising up of the next "leader of the free world". The
human population needs leadership; it abhors rulership; because it is a
freedom loving species with imagination and conscience. Perhaps our next
leader will be, or currently is, the EU; perhaps China; perhaps the rest of
the American continent into which the US will fit much the same way as
Haiti does today. To be sure however, whoever may be fit for, and willing
to assume, the responsibility, will be met with an awesome resistance,
until the bullets run out.

---
well, .... YOU brought it up.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    14-Sep-06 18:57:38
HOST:    sverige

Michael, Of course they love freedom. How could any human hate freedom?
That notion is totally non-sensical.

So perhaps you can explain it to me. How does a person develop a hatred for
freedom? What brings them to this? And then what do they do? Chain
themselves to barge and drink on the pier until they pass out?

<ANONYMOUS.14-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 10 Reasons To Boycott everything American
DATE:    14-Sep-06 18:57:38
HOST:    sverige

Michael, Of course they love freedom. How could any human hate freedom?
That notion is totally non-sensical.

So perhaps you can explain it to me. How does a person develop a hatred for
freedom? What brings them to this? And then what do they do? Chain
themselves to barge and drink on the pier until they pass out?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. I'm bored
DATE:    12-Jul-06 20:45:14
HOST:    sdf

best time sink ever: fractals
maybe hunt down a copy of fractint which runs on your color system.

<ANONYMOUS.12-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. I'm bored
DATE:    12-Jul-06 20:45:14
HOST:    sdf

best time sink ever: fractals
maybe hunt down a copy of fractint which runs on your color system.

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. lucid dreams
DATE:    16-Nov-06 02:37:15
HOST:    sverige

"- Flew like Superman (I just kinda swim through the air)"

Yeah. I've done both. The water was nice, but slow, and required more
energy; gliding on favorable breezes is much much different in a very
positive way, and certainly covers more territory and viewpoint. It's the
best way to arrive at and depart from outdoor social gatherings.

Keep at it. You're doing great!




<ANONYMOUS.16-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. lucid dreams
DATE:    16-Nov-06 02:37:15
HOST:    sverige

"- Flew like Superman (I just kinda swim through the air)"

Yeah. I've done both. The water was nice, but slow, and required more
energy; gliding on favorable breezes is much much different in a very
positive way, and certainly covers more territory and viewpoint. It's the
best way to arrive at and depart from outdoor social gatherings.

Keep at it. You're doing great!




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Unconditional
DATE:    16-May-06 22:34:57
HOST:    sverige

The problem with self-love is that it interferes with your ability to love
others; and it interferes with others' ability to love you; and it
accomplishes nothing positive in the process.

Those who have not been parents are insufficiently experienced in love to
provide much authority in a consideration of "unconditional". Besides, you
can't prove a negative anyway, especially to those who have the positive
experience.

You should however regularily examine yourself, and reform your self as
required in order to be able to respect in others  those virtues by which
they respect you.

For more insightful thoughts, type 'smj' at the shell prompt.

<ANONYMOUS.16-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Unconditional
DATE:    16-May-06 22:34:57
HOST:    sverige

The problem with self-love is that it interferes with your ability to love
others; and it interferes with others' ability to love you; and it
accomplishes nothing positive in the process.

Those who have not been parents are insufficiently experienced in love to
provide much authority in a consideration of "unconditional". Besides, you
can't prove a negative anyway, especially to those who have the positive
experience.

You should however regularily examine yourself, and reform your self as
required in order to be able to respect in others  those virtues by which
they respect you.

For more insightful thoughts, type 'smj' at the shell prompt.

....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ok this is embarrassing
DATE:    20-Mar-06 12:42:30
HOST:    sverige

README

The names of these are controlled  both by the users .htaccess file and by
the server config. Sometimes it is necessary to append '.html'

Here at SDF the following works:
Options  +Indexes
HeaderName HEADER.html
ReadmeName README.html

<ANONYMOUS.20-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ok this is embarrassing
DATE:    20-Mar-06 12:42:30
HOST:    sverige

README

The names of these are controlled  both by the users .htaccess file and by
the server config. Sometimes it is necessary to append '.html'

Here at SDF the following works:
Options  +Indexes
HeaderName HEADER.html
ReadmeName README.html

.........TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where does one find...
DATE:    27-May-06 12:32:16
HOST:    sverige

"I prefer discordianism to zen, it's a lot funnier"

Oh! in that case, you're looking for the Swami ....

Swami Beyondananda (for Precedent) provides among other things
Absurdiveness Training

Contact him at http://www.wakeuplaughing.com/

<ANONYMOUS.27-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where does one find...
DATE:    27-May-06 12:32:16
HOST:    sverige

"I prefer discordianism to zen, it's a lot funnier"

Oh! in that case, you're looking for the Swami ....

Swami Beyondananda (for Precedent) provides among other things
Absurdiveness Training

Contact him at http://www.wakeuplaughing.com/

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Hispanic Leaders Speak Out
DATE:    28-Mar-06 12:10:11
HOST:    sverige

Unevolved humans are filled with self-love, hatred, and greed. They are
destroying America from the inside out, and others along the way, and the
planet's life-sustaining resources, and ultimately humankind itself which
will self-destruct just as other species lines evolving forth from the very
first "breath of life into mankind" which was ancestral even to
Mitochondrial Eve.

Sixth Great Extinction is well under way, led by megalomanic psychopathic
global capitalists, bred in and fostered by the USA, whose only deities are
power and profit and whose greatest loves are the exploitation of all other
people and things.

Where once stood a great nation, truly "leader of the free world", lies
today the cesspool of criminality, corruption, and hypocrisy, void of
virtue, ethic, and conscience.

And they're hell bent on taking every one else and every thing down with
them.



<ANONYMOUS.28-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Hispanic Leaders Speak Out
DATE:    28-Mar-06 12:10:11
HOST:    sverige

Unevolved humans are filled with self-love, hatred, and greed. They are
destroying America from the inside out, and others along the way, and the
planet's life-sustaining resources, and ultimately humankind itself which
will self-destruct just as other species lines evolving forth from the very
first "breath of life into mankind" which was ancestral even to
Mitochondrial Eve.

Sixth Great Extinction is well under way, led by megalomanic psychopathic
global capitalists, bred in and fostered by the USA, whose only deities are
power and profit and whose greatest loves are the exploitation of all other
people and things.

Where once stood a great nation, truly "leader of the free world", lies
today the cesspool of criminality, corruption, and hypocrisy, void of
virtue, ethic, and conscience.

And they're hell bent on taking every one else and every thing down with
them.



.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What happens when you die?
DATE:    30-Oct-06 04:08:07
HOST:    sverige

Life on earth is a physical, natural, experience, stuck in time and space.

There is a spiritual life which is not bound by time and space, or by
natural or physical constraints. Most of this know this in a number of
different ways, through dreaming, through love, through imagination, for
instance.

Our spiritual self is our ultimate essence (formed by the decisions we
make, which identify what it is that we truly love). Our natural bodies are
just a covering. Sometimes our outward personna is a mask. Sometimes our
behaviors are a pretense.

What we call "death" is the death of those natural, physical, and
superficial components. Our spirit ("ruling loves"? soul?) is not
physically bound within time and space. It survives, without the ailments
of its former physical trappings, and without pretense.

--
since you asked

<ANONYMOUS.30-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What happens when you die?
DATE:    30-Oct-06 04:08:07
HOST:    sverige

Life on earth is a physical, natural, experience, stuck in time and space.

There is a spiritual life which is not bound by time and space, or by
natural or physical constraints. Most of this know this in a number of
different ways, through dreaming, through love, through imagination, for
instance.

Our spiritual self is our ultimate essence (formed by the decisions we
make, which identify what it is that we truly love). Our natural bodies are
just a covering. Sometimes our outward personna is a mask. Sometimes our
behaviors are a pretense.

What we call "death" is the death of those natural, physical, and
superficial components. Our spirit ("ruling loves"? soul?) is not
physically bound within time and space. It survives, without the ailments
of its former physical trappings, and without pretense.

--
since you asked

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What happens when you die?
DATE:    30-Oct-06 21:32:06
HOST:    sverige

In response, belief is not required. Neither is understanding, faith, or
association with a religious order or any denomination. It's just sort of
the way it is. Our "state" at and after death is what we've made of it
while here, consciously or not, by the decisions which we make.

I don't see anything mysterious or magical or unreasonable about that. Do
you?


<ANONYMOUS.30-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What happens when you die?
DATE:    30-Oct-06 21:32:06
HOST:    sverige

In response, belief is not required. Neither is understanding, faith, or
association with a religious order or any denomination. It's just sort of
the way it is. Our "state" at and after death is what we've made of it
while here, consciously or not, by the decisions which we make.

I don't see anything mysterious or magical or unreasonable about that. Do
you?


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What happens when you die?
DATE:    30-Oct-06 21:39:38
HOST:    sverige

> There is a spiritual life which is not bound by time and space,
Assumption
> or by natural or physical constraints.
Assumption

NOT assumption. Sorry you've missed out on it so far. Hopefully you'll
awaken to it sooner or later.

But I can't help with that; other than to assure you that it's there by my
experience whether you've found it or not. Like lots of things really.

<ANONYMOUS.30-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What happens when you die?
DATE:    30-Oct-06 21:39:38
HOST:    sverige

> There is a spiritual life which is not bound by time and space,
Assumption
> or by natural or physical constraints.
Assumption

NOT assumption. Sorry you've missed out on it so far. Hopefully you'll
awaken to it sooner or later.

But I can't help with that; other than to assure you that it's there by my
experience whether you've found it or not. Like lots of things really.

...TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. So MetaARPA is 'just another membership' now ..
DATE:    03-Feb-06 02:20:40
HOST:    sverige

I think there should be membership levels based upon length of Meta-ARPA
membership, not about dollars donated. By "length" I refer specifically to
number of consecutive years as a Meta-ARPA member.

Designations of Meta-n for n years of consecutive alliance. The levels
would have honor and prestige; they would  be trusted members because if
anybody misbehaves or otherwise pisses off smj, their counter would be
reset.

One way it might work would be to make available specific "trusted"
features to each new level of trust. If the trust is abused, the
user/abuser gets knocked back however many levels deemed appropriate by
smj.

This is the first thinking I've done on this, so it's had zero critical
review; and I've no idea how to  implement it even if it is a good idea;
but there, you have it; and I can go back to thinking about other things
more  within my sphere of competence.

--avo

<ARPA.03-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. So MetaARPA is 'just another membership' now ..
DATE:    03-Feb-06 02:20:40
HOST:    sverige

I think there should be membership levels based upon length of Meta-ARPA
membership, not about dollars donated. By "length" I refer specifically to
number of consecutive years as a Meta-ARPA member.

Designations of Meta-n for n years of consecutive alliance. The levels
would have honor and prestige; they would  be trusted members because if
anybody misbehaves or otherwise pisses off smj, their counter would be
reset.

One way it might work would be to make available specific "trusted"
features to each new level of trust. If the trust is abused, the
user/abuser gets knocked back however many levels deemed appropriate by
smj.

This is the first thinking I've done on this, so it's had zero critical
review; and I've no idea how to  implement it even if it is a good idea;
but there, you have it; and I can go back to thinking about other things
more  within my sphere of competence.

--avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. So MetaARPA is 'just another membership' now ..
DATE:    05-Feb-06 06:01:11
HOST:    sverige

When/How did Meta-ARPA member[s] determine that they could run tor here?

 PID USERNAME PRI NICE   SIZE   RES STATE      TIME   WCPU    CPU COM
9182 --------  68    4  3344K 1464K RUN       17:39 37.60% 37.60% tor
19256 --------   2    4    64M   65M kqread    56:43 23.97% 23.97% tor

<ARPA.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. So MetaARPA is 'just another membership' now ..
DATE:    05-Feb-06 06:01:11
HOST:    sverige

When/How did Meta-ARPA member[s] determine that they could run tor here?

 PID USERNAME PRI NICE   SIZE   RES STATE      TIME   WCPU    CPU COM
9182 --------  68    4  3344K 1464K RUN       17:39 37.60% 37.60% tor
19256 --------   2    4    64M   65M kqread    56:43 23.97% 23.97% tor

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A few POKER related sites on SDF ..
DATE:    03-Apr-06 18:58:24
HOST:    sverige

I remember the "non-commercial" part.

<ARPA.03-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A few POKER related sites on SDF ..
DATE:    03-Apr-06 18:58:24
HOST:    sverige

I remember the "non-commercial" part.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A few POKER related sites on SDF ..
DATE:    05-Apr-06 14:42:05
HOST:    sverige

While the free-for-all and click-banner sites are possibly more repugnant
than a family craft outlet or church fundraiser, they are all utilizing an
online presence for the purpose of making money, and that VHOST membership
seems appropriate to that activity, regardless of who or how or why.

<ARPA.05-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A few POKER related sites on SDF ..
DATE:    05-Apr-06 14:42:05
HOST:    sverige

While the free-for-all and click-banner sites are possibly more repugnant
than a family craft outlet or church fundraiser, they are all utilizing an
online presence for the purpose of making money, and that VHOST membership
seems appropriate to that activity, regardless of who or how or why.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Malicious user has been crashing SDF systems
DATE:    05-May-06 20:56:10
HOST:    sverige

"Should he stay or go?  YES/NO/ABSTAIN"

Aside from the fact that "stay or go?" and "yes or no" are mutually
exclusive, I was originally going to just say "I defer to you, smj."
because I cannot speak to the technical issues involved here. But I can say
that this user shows a whole heck of a lot more sincerity than that last
twit who was collectively reviewed here recently.


<ARPA.05-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Malicious user has been crashing SDF systems
DATE:    05-May-06 20:56:10
HOST:    sverige

"Should he stay or go?  YES/NO/ABSTAIN"

Aside from the fact that "stay or go?" and "yes or no" are mutually
exclusive, I was originally going to just say "I defer to you, smj."
because I cannot speak to the technical issues involved here. But I can say
that this user shows a whole heck of a lot more sincerity than that last
twit who was collectively reviewed here recently.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. sverige listen port forwarding possible?
DATE:    06-Jun-06 11:09:17
HOST:    sverige

For some background, an archive search in 2006 for 'sshd' turned it up
right away in the HELPDESK board from March. I don't know how to point to
it directly. It was number 83 at the time, but I don't think that's static.


<ARPA.06-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. sverige listen port forwarding possible?
DATE:    06-Jun-06 11:09:17
HOST:    sverige

For some background, an archive search in 2006 for 'sshd' turned it up
right away in the HELPDESK board from March. I don't know how to point to
it directly. It was number 83 at the time, but I don't think that's static.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 'tor' discussion
DATE:    07-Feb-06 15:04:37
HOST:    sverige

Thanks for the research and report, mcqueeno.

Can a server be configured so that it contributes to the circuit without
being an "exit point"?

Even with bandwidth usage, I suspicious and curious that there will be an
unfavorable load of connections on the SDF host and immediate routes in and
out.  So we  may be talking about donating performance as well as
bandwidth.

<ARPA.07-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 'tor' discussion
DATE:    07-Feb-06 15:04:37
HOST:    sverige

Thanks for the research and report, mcqueeno.

Can a server be configured so that it contributes to the circuit without
being an "exit point"?

Even with bandwidth usage, I suspicious and curious that there will be an
unfavorable load of connections on the SDF host and immediate routes in and
out.  So we  may be talking about donating performance as well as
bandwidth.

TACKER:  mcqueeno (brian mcqueen)
SUBJECT: .. 'tor' discussion
DATE:    07-Feb-06 17:30:34
HOST:    sverige

Re: avoyager's note

Regarding the exit-node issue.  They have made it quite simple to configure
the server to NOT be an exit node.  That seems to be a common server
configuration.

Donating resources IS what it amounts to.  With throttling or other
built-in resource limiting options this could be kept acceptably low.
They have built-in bandwidth limits, user-quota based limits, and complete
filtering of sockets and ports.

<ARPA.07-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mcqueeno (brian mcqueen)
SUBJECT: .. 'tor' discussion
DATE:    07-Feb-06 17:30:34
HOST:    sverige

Re: avoyager's note

Regarding the exit-node issue.  They have made it quite simple to configure
the server to NOT be an exit node.  That seems to be a common server
configuration.

Donating resources IS what it amounts to.  With throttling or other
built-in resource limiting options this could be kept acceptably low.
They have built-in bandwidth limits, user-quota based limits, and complete
filtering of sockets and ports.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 'tor' discussion
DATE:    07-Feb-06 19:06:46
HOST:    sverige

corster: an http proxy (and tor for that matter) running on sverige could
be bound to listen only on its localhost interface, which would make it
available only to sverige users, including via SSH tunnel.

mcqueeno: I'm concerned that even with severe bandwidth/user/etc.
throttling of the application, there will still be an extreme network load
of incoming connection attempts which would load the nearby firewalls,
routers, etc. and tie up the pipe. But I don't know for sure. Certainly
Stephen can talk to this issue.

<ARPA.07-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. 'tor' discussion
DATE:    07-Feb-06 19:06:46
HOST:    sverige

corster: an http proxy (and tor for that matter) running on sverige could
be bound to listen only on its localhost interface, which would make it
available only to sverige users, including via SSH tunnel.

mcqueeno: I'm concerned that even with severe bandwidth/user/etc.
throttling of the application, there will still be an extreme network load
of incoming connection attempts which would load the nearby firewalls,
routers, etc. and tie up the pipe. But I don't know for sure. Certainly
Stephen can talk to this issue.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Successful sdf ssh2 http proxy
DATE:    13-Apr-06 03:17:26
HOST:    sverige

poff, your syntax is not consistent with OpenSSH but I'm NOT going to deny
your experience.

SSH is capable of providing a SOCKS proxy on the server end of the tunnel,
but it can be, and last I checked it was, disabled by the server.

The hardship on SDF for providing socks or http proxy service for members
is that all traffic from the remote host to the local user goes through SDF
two times! once in and once out. And that's a significant resource load on
the server and a bandwidth load in and out.

There is (at least) one other "situation" encountered when users browse
through such proxies. For all the good reasons to anonymize some
connections, the standard browser configuration for proxy use deploys the
proxy for ALL remote hosts, not selectively.

That can result in a lot of traffic which doesn't really need to be
proxied, running into and out of SDF servers. Some file/program downloads
aren't easily accessible from ftp or wget due to their forced http download
implementations. (grabbing files from SourceForge by wget requires extra
steps many users won't bother with)

One way to address this matter is to run local privoxy (.org) and maintain
its configuration to forward specific sites to a proxy, but frankly most
users won't go down that road either.

There are services available to provide such anonymizing or privacy
services; and they rightly cost more than Meta-ARPA membership on SDF.
Furthermore, they are privacy services, not shell community fortress social
experiments. In short, a different market.

But hey, if SDF can do webmail, it can do anything, eh?

A well connected P2P user could bring the server to a grinding halt unless
Stephen spends effort monitoring and throttling its usage.

That said, I mean only to contribute to the discussion, not to kill it.




<ARPA.13-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Successful sdf ssh2 http proxy
DATE:    13-Apr-06 03:17:26
HOST:    sverige

poff, your syntax is not consistent with OpenSSH but I'm NOT going to deny
your experience.

SSH is capable of providing a SOCKS proxy on the server end of the tunnel,
but it can be, and last I checked it was, disabled by the server.

The hardship on SDF for providing socks or http proxy service for members
is that all traffic from the remote host to the local user goes through SDF
two times! once in and once out. And that's a significant resource load on
the server and a bandwidth load in and out.

There is (at least) one other "situation" encountered when users browse
through such proxies. For all the good reasons to anonymize some
connections, the standard browser configuration for proxy use deploys the
proxy for ALL remote hosts, not selectively.

That can result in a lot of traffic which doesn't really need to be
proxied, running into and out of SDF servers. Some file/program downloads
aren't easily accessible from ftp or wget due to their forced http download
implementations. (grabbing files from SourceForge by wget requires extra
steps many users won't bother with)

One way to address this matter is to run local privoxy (.org) and maintain
its configuration to forward specific sites to a proxy, but frankly most
users won't go down that road either.

There are services available to provide such anonymizing or privacy
services; and they rightly cost more than Meta-ARPA membership on SDF.
Furthermore, they are privacy services, not shell community fortress social
experiments. In short, a different market.

But hey, if SDF can do webmail, it can do anything, eh?

A well connected P2P user could bring the server to a grinding halt unless
Stephen spends effort monitoring and throttling its usage.

That said, I mean only to contribute to the discussion, not to kill it.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Successful sdf ssh2 http proxy
DATE:    13-Apr-06 19:35:58
HOST:    sverige

Thanks, poff, for clarifying the ssh2=ssh.com matter. I'd forgotten about
them :)

Tunnelling is a good thing. For instance, MetaARPA members can SSH into SDF
and  use the connection to tunnel their POP3 connections, encrypted from
their computer to SDF; or to create a tunnel to their favorite IRC network
host. SSH tunnels encrypt traffic between the client and the SSH server,
but not between the  SSH server and the remote host. Also, tunnels are not
proxys; tunnels connect one local port to one remote host:port whereas a
proxy (http or socks) connects one proxy port to many/any different remote
hosts. And finally, just to be complete not insulting, http proxies forward
only http traffic while socks proxies forward anything (maybe restricted to
tcp).

Not that I think nobody doesn't already know these things, but just in case
some reader never got around to thinking about them.

I use tunnels and proxy to secure computers behind the local gateway.
Gateway firewall blocks all traffic into and out of the local computers.
Local computers send http to a proxy on gateway; IM traffic to SSH tunnel
functioning as SOCKS proxy; mail traffic can be opened in firewall, forced
through gateway mailhost, or opened thru firewall.

The gatewway proxy is privoxy.org and selectively forwards some sites to a
standard tunnel-to-unfiltered-proxy; other sites to
tunnel-to-filtering-proxy,  other sites to tunnel-to-tor, and other sites
direct connect without additional forwarding; of those some are filtered
locally and others not. Can't beat that for configurability, eh?

Now, it's possible to tunnel thru a tunnel. For instance, create a tunnel
to SDF with a remote end configured for another SSHD server; then locally
SSH  to the localport end of the SDF tunnel, connecting to the remote host.
If that host had an http proxy on it, then the whole double traffic load
would bear upon  SDF quite needlessly.

That said, and even though SSH connections are encrypted without tunnel, I
connect to SDF via a tunnel because it provides a cleaner, if longer, route
to SDF. When I connect directly, the route often exhibits >12% packet loss.
The route from the other SSHd server to SDF performs much better for me.

This post has gone on way too long :)

<ARPA.13-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Successful sdf ssh2 http proxy
DATE:    13-Apr-06 19:35:58
HOST:    sverige

Thanks, poff, for clarifying the ssh2=ssh.com matter. I'd forgotten about
them :)

Tunnelling is a good thing. For instance, MetaARPA members can SSH into SDF
and  use the connection to tunnel their POP3 connections, encrypted from
their computer to SDF; or to create a tunnel to their favorite IRC network
host. SSH tunnels encrypt traffic between the client and the SSH server,
but not between the  SSH server and the remote host. Also, tunnels are not
proxys; tunnels connect one local port to one remote host:port whereas a
proxy (http or socks) connects one proxy port to many/any different remote
hosts. And finally, just to be complete not insulting, http proxies forward
only http traffic while socks proxies forward anything (maybe restricted to
tcp).

Not that I think nobody doesn't already know these things, but just in case
some reader never got around to thinking about them.

I use tunnels and proxy to secure computers behind the local gateway.
Gateway firewall blocks all traffic into and out of the local computers.
Local computers send http to a proxy on gateway; IM traffic to SSH tunnel
functioning as SOCKS proxy; mail traffic can be opened in firewall, forced
through gateway mailhost, or opened thru firewall.

The gatewway proxy is privoxy.org and selectively forwards some sites to a
standard tunnel-to-unfiltered-proxy; other sites to
tunnel-to-filtering-proxy,  other sites to tunnel-to-tor, and other sites
direct connect without additional forwarding; of those some are filtered
locally and others not. Can't beat that for configurability, eh?

Now, it's possible to tunnel thru a tunnel. For instance, create a tunnel
to SDF with a remote end configured for another SSHD server; then locally
SSH  to the localport end of the SDF tunnel, connecting to the remote host.
If that host had an http proxy on it, then the whole double traffic load
would bear upon  SDF quite needlessly.

That said, and even though SSH connections are encrypted without tunnel, I
connect to SDF via a tunnel because it provides a cleaner, if longer, route
to SDF. When I connect directly, the route often exhibits >12% packet loss.
The route from the other SSHd server to SDF performs much better for me.

This post has gone on way too long :)

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Permission tutorial
DATE:    18-Mar-06 14:29:06
HOST:    sverige

affirmative, cor.

The most important thing about `which smj` is its man page.

<ARPA.18-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Permission tutorial
DATE:    18-Mar-06 14:29:06
HOST:    sverige

affirmative, cor.

The most important thing about `which smj` is its man page.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. FTP access for validated members
DATE:    19-Nov-06 18:54:30
HOST:    sverige

"I believe that bad things can also be done using e-mail for upload and
http for download, if somebody tries to infect other machines;"

I agree.

"so I do not currently see a security advantage in excluding 'users' from
FTP"

There's something of a security advantage in NOT trasmitting login:pass in
cleartext from who-knows-where.

Email to the 'user' group may have size limitation which reduces that
overload potential, and threat ??



<ARPA.19-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. FTP access for validated members
DATE:    19-Nov-06 18:54:30
HOST:    sverige

"I believe that bad things can also be done using e-mail for upload and
http for download, if somebody tries to infect other machines;"

I agree.

"so I do not currently see a security advantage in excluding 'users' from
FTP"

There's something of a security advantage in NOT trasmitting login:pass in
cleartext from who-knows-where.

Email to the 'user' group may have size limitation which reduces that
overload potential, and threat ??



.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Two things are clear
DATE:    22-Oct-06 03:31:12
HOST:    sverige

we all are

<ARPA.22-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Two things are clear
DATE:    22-Oct-06 03:31:12
HOST:    sverige

we all are

.....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. de-commercializing the Internet
DATE:    12-Jul-06 02:41:36
HOST:    sverige

If removing ads is your interest, use proxy from privoxy.org.

NON is more than that.

<BITCH.12-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. de-commercializing the Internet
DATE:    12-Jul-06 02:41:36
HOST:    sverige

If removing ads is your interest, use proxy from privoxy.org.

NON is more than that.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Leenux users
DATE:    04-Sep-06 06:01:34
HOST:    sdf

Forum specialization, like IRC Channel specialization, like The Industrial
Revolution, provides an [obvious] solution to such gripes about novice
questions interfering with advanced questions interfering with development
questions interfering with maintenance questions interfering with the other
questions interfering with novice questions.


<BITCH.04-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Leenux users
DATE:    04-Sep-06 06:01:34
HOST:    sdf

Forum specialization, like IRC Channel specialization, like The Industrial
Revolution, provides an [obvious] solution to such gripes about novice
questions interfering with advanced questions interfering with development
questions interfering with maintenance questions interfering with the other
questions interfering with novice questions.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Leenux users
DATE:    06-Sep-06 19:49:09
HOST:    sverige

"Some of the old-school tuxes who are no longer a part of any user's
group or association grimace the development community is trying too hard
to make their distributions' front-ends look & work like M$ Winduhs."

*_IF_* there is an objective to move existing users away from MS, then such
an ititiatve would likely be more productive than not.

No doubt there are additional development groups who are customizing their
own style of user interfaces as well.


<BITCH.06-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Leenux users
DATE:    06-Sep-06 19:49:09
HOST:    sverige

"Some of the old-school tuxes who are no longer a part of any user's
group or association grimace the development community is trying too hard
to make their distributions' front-ends look & work like M$ Winduhs."

*_IF_* there is an objective to move existing users away from MS, then such
an ititiatve would likely be more productive than not.

No doubt there are additional development groups who are customizing their
own style of user interfaces as well.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Leenux users
DATE:    12-Sep-06 04:04:47
HOST:    sverige

I think the idea behind bbcode is to enable a subset of html easily; by
either ignoring or not rendering <tags> and enabling/rendering [tags]; and
that keeping the 'b' was in all ways reasonbale.

If so, then it's not that they (everyone but you) are stupid; but rather
that you just don't yet see or understand their motivations ....

... which, by the way, in ALL aspects of life, IS the case.

and rightly so.

<BITCH.12-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Leenux users
DATE:    12-Sep-06 04:04:47
HOST:    sverige

I think the idea behind bbcode is to enable a subset of html easily; by
either ignoring or not rendering <tags> and enabling/rendering [tags]; and
that keeping the 'b' was in all ways reasonbale.

If so, then it's not that they (everyone but you) are stupid; but rather
that you just don't yet see or understand their motivations ....

... which, by the way, in ALL aspects of life, IS the case.

and rightly so.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    03-Nov-06 14:15:19
HOST:    sverige

Stephen,

You may have too few generalized categories there :)

In particular, I'd urge you to realize that much if not most of what goes
on around this planet as "spirituality" is nowhere near "extreme". It is in
fact supra-peaceful and very much out of your face.

The loudest group in any discussion is almost always domniated by political
zealots whose only "religion" is to conform others into their personal
worldview, using whichever tools and exploitations they find convenient.
The so called "religious right" is the grandest conveniency for them, in
part because it matches their model for hypocrisy. Claiming to believe in
Jesus conveniently makes Muslims and Jews to be "evil", while anything
having to do with peace, goodwill, and brotherhood is appropriated to
themselves alone, NOT to be shared with others or spread across the
community of any size greater than their close circle of benefactors.

So, the problem I have with your categorizations is that the group labelled
as Religious/Spiritual Extremists really have no spirituality or religion
at all, other than self-engrandizement. Their only deity is material
possession, collective power over others, and self-glorification.

(as can be plainly seen) <w>

Now as it happens I have an uncle who has become immersed in the
pseudo-theology of the "religious right", and as far as he can see, that
group I just described can do no wrong; and to him only they, and himself
an his ilk,  have been somehow or another "saved" while the rest of us
aren't worth a pot to spit in. He used to teach math and science; but he
wouldn't let his daughters date in high school.

These are the group which your pseudo-rational atheists choose to confront.
And I don't know why they bother; they're just as delusioned and
hypocritical and self-serving as their targets, claiming "science" as their
"religion" while cherry-picking the facts and taking no account whatsoever
of the errors within their observation and analyses.

(as can be less plainly seen) <w>

That said, I certainly do appreciate your bringing it up. It's a good
start, and I trust that someone will take this discussion to the next step.

-
avo

<BITCH.03-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    03-Nov-06 14:15:19
HOST:    sverige

Stephen,

You may have too few generalized categories there :)

In particular, I'd urge you to realize that much if not most of what goes
on around this planet as "spirituality" is nowhere near "extreme". It is in
fact supra-peaceful and very much out of your face.

The loudest group in any discussion is almost always domniated by political
zealots whose only "religion" is to conform others into their personal
worldview, using whichever tools and exploitations they find convenient.
The so called "religious right" is the grandest conveniency for them, in
part because it matches their model for hypocrisy. Claiming to believe in
Jesus conveniently makes Muslims and Jews to be "evil", while anything
having to do with peace, goodwill, and brotherhood is appropriated to
themselves alone, NOT to be shared with others or spread across the
community of any size greater than their close circle of benefactors.

So, the problem I have with your categorizations is that the group labelled
as Religious/Spiritual Extremists really have no spirituality or religion
at all, other than self-engrandizement. Their only deity is material
possession, collective power over others, and self-glorification.

(as can be plainly seen) <w>

Now as it happens I have an uncle who has become immersed in the
pseudo-theology of the "religious right", and as far as he can see, that
group I just described can do no wrong; and to him only they, and himself
an his ilk,  have been somehow or another "saved" while the rest of us
aren't worth a pot to spit in. He used to teach math and science; but he
wouldn't let his daughters date in high school.

These are the group which your pseudo-rational atheists choose to confront.
And I don't know why they bother; they're just as delusioned and
hypocritical and self-serving as their targets, claiming "science" as their
"religion" while cherry-picking the facts and taking no account whatsoever
of the errors within their observation and analyses.

(as can be less plainly seen) <w>

That said, I certainly do appreciate your bringing it up. It's a good
start, and I trust that someone will take this discussion to the next step.

-
avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    03-Nov-06 14:44:21
HOST:    sverige

"Do the extremists realise that experience doesn't indicate truth?"

Well now, if there is any such thing as pure truth at all, wouldn't it be
experience itself?

Do you accept truths which you don't experience?

How can experience by anything other than truth? Even illusion is itself a
truth.

The fact that you  saw the man swallow the flaming sword is true. The
notion that the man did in fact swallow the flaming sword is a derivation,
an appearance, an illusion, whatever you want to call it; but it is true
that that is what you saw; and it is not appropriate for others to deny
that; or for others to conclude that because it was your experience then
the even was false or not truth. Heisenberg pointed that out long ago.

As to whether or not this whole consideration even merits anyones efforts,
it could be noted that it has done so across all civilizations across all
time; and it doesn't show any likely sign of ceasing.

Carl Jung went around the globe studying the human psyche. He discovered a
human concept of something beyond itself everywhere. But you know, folks
can get full blown phD doctorates and degrees in psychology without ever
having to read anything Jung wrote. That's like a degree in U.S. history
without ever knowing about the Vietnam war and Richard Nixon.

The study of mythology is enjoyable and rewarding; and integral to any
study of the development of civilization.

Now, but not earlier, the sciences of psychology and philosophy are
accepted; and it is acknowledged that as humans we have a psychology and a
philosophy, whether we're conscious of it or not.

I maintain, from research, consdieration, discussion, and experience, that
we also have a theology operative within us as well. But then, not
everybody has the time or attention to bring to bear on such presumably
remote considerations.

After all, the grain farmer hardly concerns himself with the plight of the
manatees. To him, they don't exist. Period.

-
avo



<BITCH.03-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    03-Nov-06 14:44:21
HOST:    sverige

"Do the extremists realise that experience doesn't indicate truth?"

Well now, if there is any such thing as pure truth at all, wouldn't it be
experience itself?

Do you accept truths which you don't experience?

How can experience by anything other than truth? Even illusion is itself a
truth.

The fact that you  saw the man swallow the flaming sword is true. The
notion that the man did in fact swallow the flaming sword is a derivation,
an appearance, an illusion, whatever you want to call it; but it is true
that that is what you saw; and it is not appropriate for others to deny
that; or for others to conclude that because it was your experience then
the even was false or not truth. Heisenberg pointed that out long ago.

As to whether or not this whole consideration even merits anyones efforts,
it could be noted that it has done so across all civilizations across all
time; and it doesn't show any likely sign of ceasing.

Carl Jung went around the globe studying the human psyche. He discovered a
human concept of something beyond itself everywhere. But you know, folks
can get full blown phD doctorates and degrees in psychology without ever
having to read anything Jung wrote. That's like a degree in U.S. history
without ever knowing about the Vietnam war and Richard Nixon.

The study of mythology is enjoyable and rewarding; and integral to any
study of the development of civilization.

Now, but not earlier, the sciences of psychology and philosophy are
accepted; and it is acknowledged that as humans we have a psychology and a
philosophy, whether we're conscious of it or not.

I maintain, from research, consdieration, discussion, and experience, that
we also have a theology operative within us as well. But then, not
everybody has the time or attention to bring to bear on such presumably
remote considerations.

After all, the grain farmer hardly concerns himself with the plight of the
manatees. To him, they don't exist. Period.

-
avo



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    04-Nov-06 02:31:19
HOST:    sverige

Nice points, gentlemen. Thank you. One of the other fascinating values of
experience observed in this context is that it (the diversity of
experience, or 'they' (the diverse experiences themselves), show us
something of the error inherent in our own observations.

If you see it as blue, while I see it as green, then my understanding of
its color has a measured 50% uncertainty.

Grand stuff, knowing how wrong we are. I couldn't live without it.

And, since "you can't prove a negative", positions that "there is not a
God" are pretty ridiculous indeed.

Eh.





<BITCH.04-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    04-Nov-06 02:31:19
HOST:    sverige

Nice points, gentlemen. Thank you. One of the other fascinating values of
experience observed in this context is that it (the diversity of
experience, or 'they' (the diverse experiences themselves), show us
something of the error inherent in our own observations.

If you see it as blue, while I see it as green, then my understanding of
its color has a measured 50% uncertainty.

Grand stuff, knowing how wrong we are. I couldn't live without it.

And, since "you can't prove a negative", positions that "there is not a
God" are pretty ridiculous indeed.

Eh.





TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    04-Nov-06 12:41:36
HOST:    sverige

Thanks Stephen. I'll clarify further.

Believing IS subjective. And it's both fine and reasonable to not have a
belief in a God. It's a different thing to take an active belief that a God
does not exist. That position has a high degree of uncertainty, measured by
the observations of any random sample; whereas by the same measure of
uncertainty, a belief that a God does exist has a lower degree of
uncertainty.

To state any negative (such as there is no God, or no life on other
planets) as a fact or truth, is ...um... ridiculous? especially if it's
wrapped in the flag of "science says so".


<BITCH.04-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. "Rationalists"
DATE:    04-Nov-06 12:41:36
HOST:    sverige

Thanks Stephen. I'll clarify further.

Believing IS subjective. And it's both fine and reasonable to not have a
belief in a God. It's a different thing to take an active belief that a God
does not exist. That position has a high degree of uncertainty, measured by
the observations of any random sample; whereas by the same measure of
uncertainty, a belief that a God does exist has a lower degree of
uncertainty.

To state any negative (such as there is no God, or no life on other
planets) as a fact or truth, is ...um... ridiculous? especially if it's
wrapped in the flag of "science says so".


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. fake unknown host dns results
DATE:    11-Sep-06 18:27:19
HOST:    sverige

deanna, I use a couple different "tricks" with my local DNS for this and
other purposes. (Bind8/9)

zone "ads.web.aol.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "freshell.org" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "freeshell.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };

server 216.234.224.39 { bogus yes; }; // ns1.freehostweb.com 2001-02

file nullify.zone:
$TTL 86400;
@ IN SOA localhost. root.localhost. ( 1 36000 1200 604800 86400 )
 IN NS @

and/or ...

acl "poisoned_servers" {�
    216.234.224.39;�
};�

blackhole { poisoned_servers; };


The effectiveness of these kinds of things depend on whether you browse
thru a remote proxy which uses its DNS rather than yours; and whether your
name server is recursive; and whether you list ALL the servers which name
the entities you're trying to avoid.

Note that it's useful, and interesting! to use lynx or some other tool to
see just which site serves those bad-domain pages. For instance, the
freshell.org page is served up by oingo.com; browsing to oingo.com goes to
appliedsemantics.com which gleefully declares that they have been acquired
by <ahem> google.

The freeshell.com page hosts a mess of links sponsored by <ahem>
googlesyndication.com.




<BITCH.11-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. fake unknown host dns results
DATE:    11-Sep-06 18:27:19
HOST:    sverige

deanna, I use a couple different "tricks" with my local DNS for this and
other purposes. (Bind8/9)

zone "ads.web.aol.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "freshell.org" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "freeshell.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };

server 216.234.224.39 { bogus yes; }; // ns1.freehostweb.com 2001-02

file nullify.zone:
$TTL 86400;
@ IN SOA localhost. root.localhost. ( 1 36000 1200 604800 86400 )
 IN NS @

and/or ...

acl "poisoned_servers" {�
    216.234.224.39;�
};�

blackhole { poisoned_servers; };


The effectiveness of these kinds of things depend on whether you browse
thru a remote proxy which uses its DNS rather than yours; and whether your
name server is recursive; and whether you list ALL the servers which name
the entities you're trying to avoid.

Note that it's useful, and interesting! to use lynx or some other tool to
see just which site serves those bad-domain pages. For instance, the
freshell.org page is served up by oingo.com; browsing to oingo.com goes to
appliedsemantics.com which gleefully declares that they have been acquired
by <ahem> google.

The freeshell.com page hosts a mess of links sponsored by <ahem>
googlesyndication.com.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. fake unknown host dns results
DATE:    24-Sep-06 20:05:38
HOST:    sverige

maybe null route their IPs

<BITCH.24-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. fake unknown host dns results
DATE:    24-Sep-06 20:05:38
HOST:    sverige

maybe null route their IPs

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Spam??
DATE:    23-Oct-06 01:58:17
HOST:    sverige

noting that JunkMail (postal) pays for its transportation to your door,
while Spam (email) steals its transportation services from others.

<BITCH.23-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Spam??
DATE:    23-Oct-06 01:58:17
HOST:    sverige

noting that JunkMail (postal) pays for its transportation to your door,
while Spam (email) steals its transportation services from others.

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. New kneejerk TSA regulations
DATE:    12-Aug-06 14:08:07
HOST:    sverige

"The TSA pigs have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker!"

I don't think TSA controls the Ashcroft color flags; but that TSA is just
the labor force which enforces the mandates handed to them. From what I've
read, there's no rational cause to disallow passenger drinking water or
flight crew toothpaste. Those restrictions are probably generated by Karl
Rove's political machine.

I did enjoy reading about how this very same "threat" was disrupted in 1995
without ever affecting public air travel, or ever broadcasting to the
general population how easy it could be for average dumb-shit to actually
execute such a plan.


<BITCH.12-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. New kneejerk TSA regulations
DATE:    12-Aug-06 14:08:07
HOST:    sverige

"The TSA pigs have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker!"

I don't think TSA controls the Ashcroft color flags; but that TSA is just
the labor force which enforces the mandates handed to them. From what I've
read, there's no rational cause to disallow passenger drinking water or
flight crew toothpaste. Those restrictions are probably generated by Karl
Rove's political machine.

I did enjoy reading about how this very same "threat" was disrupted in 1995
without ever affecting public air travel, or ever broadcasting to the
general population how easy it could be for average dumb-shit to actually
execute such a plan.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. New kneejerk TSA regulations
DATE:    26-Aug-06 19:41:46
HOST:    sverige

Maybe next time your'e bored, you can rethink the clauses about causing
hurricanes and getting the UN to agree with him.

Those being the easier obstacles to your next breakfast.

The more difficult one is to adjust your conceptualization from "causing"
of such things as the WTC collapse and the Republican Culture of
Corruption, to a more realistic "permission" of such things; and
"provocation" of others such as the endless bloodshed throughout the middle
east.

After all that, it'll be time to review the whole she-bang one more time
yet again :)

--with your oatmeal.

<BITCH.26-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. New kneejerk TSA regulations
DATE:    26-Aug-06 19:41:46
HOST:    sverige

Maybe next time your'e bored, you can rethink the clauses about causing
hurricanes and getting the UN to agree with him.

Those being the easier obstacles to your next breakfast.

The more difficult one is to adjust your conceptualization from "causing"
of such things as the WTC collapse and the Republican Culture of
Corruption, to a more realistic "permission" of such things; and
"provocation" of others such as the endless bloodshed throughout the middle
east.

After all that, it'll be time to review the whole she-bang one more time
yet again :)

--with your oatmeal.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. New kneejerk TSA regulations
DATE:    27-Aug-06 07:22:54
HOST:    sverige

"Yes, we have no bananas." No, there is no political solution. All
religions teach and honor peace, love, and brotherhood. Operational
democracy in the U.S. does not resemble the textbooks, or the Constitution.
Theoretical democracy is a fine idea for a model of societal governance.
Capitalism is a fine idea as an economic model, as the tool of a
government. Citizens do not create governments to be the tools of another's
economic policies. There is no political solution, and "Yes, we have no
bananas."

<BITCH.27-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. New kneejerk TSA regulations
DATE:    27-Aug-06 07:22:54
HOST:    sverige

"Yes, we have no bananas." No, there is no political solution. All
religions teach and honor peace, love, and brotherhood. Operational
democracy in the U.S. does not resemble the textbooks, or the Constitution.
Theoretical democracy is a fine idea for a model of societal governance.
Capitalism is a fine idea as an economic model, as the tool of a
government. Citizens do not create governments to be the tools of another's
economic policies. There is no political solution, and "Yes, we have no
bananas."

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. paypal
DATE:    13-Feb-06 13:47:38
HOST:    sverige

It seems I have to pay $2 to paypal to set up the account; that's not worth
bitching about; but after that I have to jump thru hoops and wait until
next monthly statement arrives because it will disclose my secret code
which I have to return to paypal before they'll let me use my VERIFIED Visa
to fuel my account there.

There's no way I'm going to connect them with a bank account for this
purpose.

I may as well write a check and mail it. In either case, it could take as
much as 4 weeks for the payment to be received.

At any rate, I have determination, and will make this transfer somehow.

<BITCH.13-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. paypal
DATE:    13-Feb-06 13:47:38
HOST:    sverige

It seems I have to pay $2 to paypal to set up the account; that's not worth
bitching about; but after that I have to jump thru hoops and wait until
next monthly statement arrives because it will disclose my secret code
which I have to return to paypal before they'll let me use my VERIFIED Visa
to fuel my account there.

There's no way I'm going to connect them with a bank account for this
purpose.

I may as well write a check and mail it. In either case, it could take as
much as 4 weeks for the payment to be received.

At any rate, I have determination, and will make this transfer somehow.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. paypal
DATE:    16-Feb-06 15:18:13
HOST:    sverige

It looks like I'm successfully spending NOW :)

Once the CC is set up, it appears to work seemlessly; no need to xfer funds
in before sending; just one-step send.

Time will verify shortly I trust.

<BITCH.16-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. paypal
DATE:    16-Feb-06 15:18:13
HOST:    sverige

It looks like I'm successfully spending NOW :)

Once the CC is set up, it appears to work seemlessly; no need to xfer funds
in before sending; just one-step send.

Time will verify shortly I trust.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. mp3 ringtones
DATE:    16-Aug-06 02:11:39
HOST:    sverige

<sigh> .... ober0n, the reason *_I_*  use different ring tones for
different inbound calls is to enable me to maybe hear a non-essential quiet
tone and push the off button wihtout disrupting my existing conversation;
or to tell my existing lame conversation that I have to take this call,
without having to look at the phone (which is both disruptive and rude) in
order to decide.

Since you asked.
(sort of)

<BITCH.16-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. mp3 ringtones
DATE:    16-Aug-06 02:11:39
HOST:    sverige

<sigh> .... ober0n, the reason *_I_*  use different ring tones for
different inbound calls is to enable me to maybe hear a non-essential quiet
tone and push the off button wihtout disrupting my existing conversation;
or to tell my existing lame conversation that I have to take this call,
without having to look at the phone (which is both disruptive and rude) in
order to decide.

Since you asked.
(sort of)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. mp3 ringtones
DATE:    16-Aug-06 14:42:58
HOST:    sverige

Morse Code. Excellent!

<BITCH.16-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. mp3 ringtones
DATE:    16-Aug-06 14:42:58
HOST:    sverige

Morse Code. Excellent!

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Too hot
DATE:    20-Jul-06 21:45:17
HOST:    sverige

but in  Australia, where it's snowin in July, do they call it 'summer' or
'winter'?

<BITCH.20-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Too hot
DATE:    20-Jul-06 21:45:17
HOST:    sverige

but in  Australia, where it's snowin in July, do they call it 'summer' or
'winter'?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Windows is a pain in the @$$
DATE:    30-Dec-05 23:48:38
HOST:    sverige

I quit teching for friends and neighbors with "the only thing I know about
Windows is how to avoid it".

However, I do support it for my family members, and frankly without much
difficulty using some easy hardline guidelines.

Dad has w9x running on old hand-me-down hardware, standalone. I disable all
local networking, shares, and netbios; and I replace browser and email
clients; and I install AVG anti-virus, and recently a spam filter. He's on
a DSL line, so I also  installed, but not loaded/started, VNC for remote
management; no firewall; no problems over 3 years.

Family in house has w2k systems which I secure with guidelines and
templates from http://csrc.nist.gov/itsec/ and
http://www.cisecurity.org/bench_win2000.html slightly modified; and of
course none of them have any privs to install anything; they're all
carefully networked, NATted and firewalled behind my OS/2 based server
gateway which also happens to provide time, DNS, mail, filtering webproxy,
ssh tunnels, and just about anything else they may need. Unused services,
including netbios over tcp, are disabled. And of course, the most important
thing, replace browser and email clients.

The home systems run problem free; they also have AV, but nothing else for
system security or maintenance; now that there's teenagers however, there
are getting to be a lot of USB cables hanging off them; but I have to do
all the installations.

In fact, configuring their browsers to proxy thru privoxy[.org] on my
gateway, and their IM clients to proxy via SOCKS SSH tunnels on my gateway,
and POP mail from the gateway (or remote webmail), I can firewall block ALL
their outbound connections (as well as incoming SYN), and their
connectivity is encrypted. Firewall (fx.dk) provides customized logging and
accounting of all activities.

Sweet situation indeed.





<BITCH.30-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Windows is a pain in the @$$
DATE:    30-Dec-05 23:48:38
HOST:    sverige

I quit teching for friends and neighbors with "the only thing I know about
Windows is how to avoid it".

However, I do support it for my family members, and frankly without much
difficulty using some easy hardline guidelines.

Dad has w9x running on old hand-me-down hardware, standalone. I disable all
local networking, shares, and netbios; and I replace browser and email
clients; and I install AVG anti-virus, and recently a spam filter. He's on
a DSL line, so I also  installed, but not loaded/started, VNC for remote
management; no firewall; no problems over 3 years.

Family in house has w2k systems which I secure with guidelines and
templates from http://csrc.nist.gov/itsec/ and
http://www.cisecurity.org/bench_win2000.html slightly modified; and of
course none of them have any privs to install anything; they're all
carefully networked, NATted and firewalled behind my OS/2 based server
gateway which also happens to provide time, DNS, mail, filtering webproxy,
ssh tunnels, and just about anything else they may need. Unused services,
including netbios over tcp, are disabled. And of course, the most important
thing, replace browser and email clients.

The home systems run problem free; they also have AV, but nothing else for
system security or maintenance; now that there's teenagers however, there
are getting to be a lot of USB cables hanging off them; but I have to do
all the installations.

In fact, configuring their browsers to proxy thru privoxy[.org] on my
gateway, and their IM clients to proxy via SOCKS SSH tunnels on my gateway,
and POP mail from the gateway (or remote webmail), I can firewall block ALL
their outbound connections (as well as incoming SYN), and their
connectivity is encrypted. Firewall (fx.dk) provides customized logging and
accounting of all activities.

Sweet situation indeed.





.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Drugs
DATE:    22-Oct-06 22:49:00
HOST:    sverige

it's the textbook publisher's way of paying protection fees to the
prison-industrial-complex

you know, where nice peaceable blokes get put in the slammer for pot
possession, and are made to do slave labor for what's left of the
manufacturing sector at no/low cost to the profiteers.

it also provides necessary PR for the burgeoning Police State.

sucks,eh?

<BITCH.22-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Drugs
DATE:    22-Oct-06 22:49:00
HOST:    sverige

it's the textbook publisher's way of paying protection fees to the
prison-industrial-complex

you know, where nice peaceable blokes get put in the slammer for pot
possession, and are made to do slave labor for what's left of the
manufacturing sector at no/low cost to the profiteers.

it also provides necessary PR for the burgeoning Police State.

sucks,eh?

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    07-Oct-06 05:40:35
HOST:    sverige

"why spam exists in the first place. And that is... because people read
it."

I challenge that statement, be it an assumption or a conclusion.

It is physically, logistically, and logically impossible for prior events
to take place as a consequence of latter events. Spam is sent only with the
hope of profit. Serial spammers probably receive enough profit from their prior
runs to encourage them to continue.

People don't purchase lottery tickets because it has been profitable for
them to do so. Spamming is no cheaper, and no different, than purchasing
lottery tickets, other than it is theft by the spammer, not by the lottery
ticket purchaser.

Spam exists because of greed, and a willingness to exploit others. The
greed and the exploitation exist because people have become tolerant of it,
rather than evolved beyond it, as they have become tolerant of noise and
other pollutions, and of sacrificing their privacies.

There's more; but this has been enough for now.

-
avo

<BITCH.07-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    07-Oct-06 05:40:35
HOST:    sverige

"why spam exists in the first place. And that is... because people read
it."

I challenge that statement, be it an assumption or a conclusion.

It is physically, logistically, and logically impossible for prior events
to take place as a consequence of latter events. Spam is sent only with the
hope of profit. Serial spammers probably receive enough profit from their prior
runs to encourage them to continue.

People don't purchase lottery tickets because it has been profitable for
them to do so. Spamming is no cheaper, and no different, than purchasing
lottery tickets, other than it is theft by the spammer, not by the lottery
ticket purchaser.

Spam exists because of greed, and a willingness to exploit others. The
greed and the exploitation exist because people have become tolerant of it,
rather than evolved beyond it, as they have become tolerant of noise and
other pollutions, and of sacrificing their privacies.

There's more; but this has been enough for now.

-
avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    08-Oct-06 12:48:04
HOST:    sverige

As you say, people buy lottery tickets and people spam because they HOPE to
gain. In both cases, their odds are sufficiently near zero to be
functionally irreducible already.

Spam is theft of service, per just about every MTA operator who reads their
logs. Most "successful" spam today is delivered from computers which don't
belong to the spammer, other than to his network of hacked boxes, millions
of them, stolen by theivery of the disk space, cpu, power, and bandwidth
costs born by others without their knowledge or assent.

That's what has always made spamming an extremely low-cost activity.

Of course there are a handful of different categories of spammer active
today, and we don't want to over-generalize unnecessarily.

-
avo-san


<BITCH.08-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    08-Oct-06 12:48:04
HOST:    sverige

As you say, people buy lottery tickets and people spam because they HOPE to
gain. In both cases, their odds are sufficiently near zero to be
functionally irreducible already.

Spam is theft of service, per just about every MTA operator who reads their
logs. Most "successful" spam today is delivered from computers which don't
belong to the spammer, other than to his network of hacked boxes, millions
of them, stolen by theivery of the disk space, cpu, power, and bandwidth
costs born by others without their knowledge or assent.

That's what has always made spamming an extremely low-cost activity.

Of course there are a handful of different categories of spammer active
today, and we don't want to over-generalize unnecessarily.

-
avo-san


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    30-Aug-06 00:35:47
HOST:    sverige

I appreciate your general point about "implementing policy". With every
aging day I find myself increasingly unable to conform to "policy" though I
am increasingly adept at complying with the good intentions behind those
policies.

A simplified every-day example is traffic stop signs. The intent of course
is to avoid accidents, not to create traffic stoppages. When I'm in a queue
of several vehicles stopping at signs where no traffic is crossing, I don't
myself come to a complete halt for nobody yet again!

The definition of "traffic" to me mandates the proximity of some vehicle or
pedestrian other than myself. If it's just me, then "traffic control
devices" have no existance because there's no "traffic" which requires
controlling.

To me, a "Stop" sign indicates that if I proceed into an accident, it will
be my fault; and if I proceed without an accident then there is no problem
and there was no infraction.

But now that my children are about to gain licenses behind the wheel, I
have to explain to them that my driving record of a clean 30 years without
ticket or accident will be more difficult for some kid copper to assail
than will be their nascent situation.

The powers behind badges are going to insist upon bringing the younger
folks into compliance more strongly than they are going to take on this old
curmudgeon.

Perhaps.

Remember, never grant, or acknowledge, any "authority" which is not derived
from a personal responsibility, and which isn't authorized, or
knowledgable, or willing enough to critique each opporunity for
enforcement on an individual basis; rather than just drone on issuing
tickets.

Because .... the police state is rising.

And, because it is the proper way to live, with or without despots in the
stream.

Cheers!!



<BITCH.30-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    30-Aug-06 00:35:47
HOST:    sverige

I appreciate your general point about "implementing policy". With every
aging day I find myself increasingly unable to conform to "policy" though I
am increasingly adept at complying with the good intentions behind those
policies.

A simplified every-day example is traffic stop signs. The intent of course
is to avoid accidents, not to create traffic stoppages. When I'm in a queue
of several vehicles stopping at signs where no traffic is crossing, I don't
myself come to a complete halt for nobody yet again!

The definition of "traffic" to me mandates the proximity of some vehicle or
pedestrian other than myself. If it's just me, then "traffic control
devices" have no existance because there's no "traffic" which requires
controlling.

To me, a "Stop" sign indicates that if I proceed into an accident, it will
be my fault; and if I proceed without an accident then there is no problem
and there was no infraction.

But now that my children are about to gain licenses behind the wheel, I
have to explain to them that my driving record of a clean 30 years without
ticket or accident will be more difficult for some kid copper to assail
than will be their nascent situation.

The powers behind badges are going to insist upon bringing the younger
folks into compliance more strongly than they are going to take on this old
curmudgeon.

Perhaps.

Remember, never grant, or acknowledge, any "authority" which is not derived
from a personal responsibility, and which isn't authorized, or
knowledgable, or willing enough to critique each opporunity for
enforcement on an individual basis; rather than just drone on issuing
tickets.

Because .... the police state is rising.

And, because it is the proper way to live, with or without despots in the
stream.

Cheers!!



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    30-Aug-06 13:12:38
HOST:    sverige

In both examples, that of email filtering, and of IRC restrictions, I think
what happens is that technical, not personal, policies are instituted which
have "collateral damage", which is known, and which is deemed "acceptable"
by those searching for a solution to their problem.

In the case of IRC, it's easy to configure the host to not allow more than
$n connections from any single IP. That way they don't have to do any
research about whether the IP is a wide open proxy or a small multi-user
system.

I've seen mail hosts require connecting IP to have PTR -> IP matching
records as the default (which is an easy implementation), and provides a
whitelisting capability (which requires more work and attention).

The Internet is too big to treat every instance individually. Low level
bureaucrats are a different matter all together.

<BITCH.30-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Abuse of "power"
DATE:    30-Aug-06 13:12:38
HOST:    sverige

In both examples, that of email filtering, and of IRC restrictions, I think
what happens is that technical, not personal, policies are instituted which
have "collateral damage", which is known, and which is deemed "acceptable"
by those searching for a solution to their problem.

In the case of IRC, it's easy to configure the host to not allow more than
$n connections from any single IP. That way they don't have to do any
research about whether the IP is a wide open proxy or a small multi-user
system.

I've seen mail hosts require connecting IP to have PTR -> IP matching
records as the default (which is an easy implementation), and provides a
whitelisting capability (which requires more work and attention).

The Internet is too big to treat every instance individually. Low level
bureaucrats are a different matter all together.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DVD Media and Recorders
DATE:    30-May-06 23:40:47
HOST:    sverige

Not burnable because the drive rejects it. I couldn't track down a firmware
upgrade for the unit:

Vendor_info : 'LITE-ON '
Identifikation : 'DVDRW SOHW-1633S'
Revision : 'BS0H'
Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD-R/DVD-RW.

and my hardware source denied firmware upgrades. I'm not sure that the
lasers are good any more either however.  With some now rare 8x media I'm
starting to suspect hardware rather than media failures.

I may try harder to find the firmware upgrade now though. Thanks.

<BITCH.30-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DVD Media and Recorders
DATE:    30-May-06 23:40:47
HOST:    sverige

Not burnable because the drive rejects it. I couldn't track down a firmware
upgrade for the unit:

Vendor_info : 'LITE-ON '
Identifikation : 'DVDRW SOHW-1633S'
Revision : 'BS0H'
Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD-R/DVD-RW.

and my hardware source denied firmware upgrades. I'm not sure that the
lasers are good any more either however.  With some now rare 8x media I'm
starting to suspect hardware rather than media failures.

I may try harder to find the firmware upgrade now though. Thanks.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DVD Media and Recorders
DATE:    31-May-06 20:13:22
HOST:    sverige

Thanks Robert!
That did the trick :)

<BITCH.31-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DVD Media and Recorders
DATE:    31-May-06 20:13:22
HOST:    sverige

Thanks Robert!
That did the trick :)

...TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Where do you like to shop?
DATE:    01-Apr-06 04:59:55
HOST:    sverige

"where do you buy your stuff?"

the overcoat in the park?

<BOXMART.01-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Where do you like to shop?
DATE:    01-Apr-06 04:59:55
HOST:    sverige

"where do you buy your stuff?"

the overcoat in the park?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Postfix on NetBSD
DATE:    02-Aug-06 12:40:42
HOST:    sverige

Don't expect the Postfix config files to be anywhere near complete.
Use 'man 5 postconf'

That said, the default settings are usually quite satisfactory, and
secure!, and by starting with the installed .cf files you should easily and
readily have a functioning mail server running while you study the rest of
the options and feature-set.

Some security testers:
http://www.abuse.net/relay.html
telnet to relay-test.mail-abuse.org and log the automatic session

Another tool you may find useful:
http://jetmore.org/john/code/#swaks


<BSD.02-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Postfix on NetBSD
DATE:    02-Aug-06 12:40:42
HOST:    sverige

Don't expect the Postfix config files to be anywhere near complete.
Use 'man 5 postconf'

That said, the default settings are usually quite satisfactory, and
secure!, and by starting with the installed .cf files you should easily and
readily have a functioning mail server running while you study the rest of
the options and feature-set.

Some security testers:
http://www.abuse.net/relay.html
telnet to relay-test.mail-abuse.org and log the automatic session

Another tool you may find useful:
http://jetmore.org/john/code/#swaks


..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. NetBSD stagnated?
DATE:    31-Aug-06 21:01:25
HOST:    sverige

OS/2 is still being pronounced "dead" for what seems like ten years running
by now. Still only it's users don't believe it; nobody else seems to care;
yet the pronouncements persist.

<BSD.31-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. NetBSD stagnated?
DATE:    31-Aug-06 21:01:25
HOST:    sverige

OS/2 is still being pronounced "dead" for what seems like ten years running
by now. Still only it's users don't believe it; nobody else seems to care;
yet the pronouncements persist.

........TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    16-Apr-06 03:58:47
HOST:    sverige

Hi Fred,

My computer experience went from z/80 cp/m to DOS to DesQview to OS/2, and
my current desktop and local gateway is still OS/2 (current). Part of the
reason I'm still on OS/2 is that Windows (or unix) just never ever did "the
job" as well as what I was using at the time, and another part of the
reason is that OS/2 (nothing else) runs DOS so well, and for most of my
concerns, DOS based applications are every bit or more useful, to me, than
their present day forms in other systems.

The biggest exceptions being graphic printing and databases and other data
processing engines which anticipate unlimited physical and virtual memory.

I still have a pile of 5" program distribution floppies which I'm
transferring to HD/CD archival; maybe everything from Borland including
Sprint :)

Did you ever enjoy time with Fractint? (my favorite definitive example of
"time sink")





<DOS.16-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    16-Apr-06 03:58:47
HOST:    sverige

Hi Fred,

My computer experience went from z/80 cp/m to DOS to DesQview to OS/2, and
my current desktop and local gateway is still OS/2 (current). Part of the
reason I'm still on OS/2 is that Windows (or unix) just never ever did "the
job" as well as what I was using at the time, and another part of the
reason is that OS/2 (nothing else) runs DOS so well, and for most of my
concerns, DOS based applications are every bit or more useful, to me, than
their present day forms in other systems.

The biggest exceptions being graphic printing and databases and other data
processing engines which anticipate unlimited physical and virtual memory.

I still have a pile of 5" program distribution floppies which I'm
transferring to HD/CD archival; maybe everything from Borland including
Sprint :)

Did you ever enjoy time with Fractint? (my favorite definitive example of
"time sink")





TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    18-Apr-06 22:08:05
HOST:    sverige

Affirmative of Robert's statements, I'll add that OS/2 itself was initiated
as some kind of joint venture between  IBM and MS. They had "a falling
out", the details of which I've no clue, and IBM continued OS/2
development. In fact, still today calls  for open-sourcing OS/2 are met
with "MS still owns some of the codeparts", though I'm not really sure
which ones.

In addition to IBM's PC-DOS  and MS's MS-DOS I think the first other was
Dr-DOS from Digital Research (which wrote CP/M); and there was a Novell DOS
which was probably their own. IIRC (which btw isn't very likely :), Caldera
purchased Dr-DOS, and somehow out of it all today is FreeDOS.

And there may have been embedded systems variants also. Several handheld
devices ran DOS; notably the HP-200lx (MS-DOS 5.00), the first "Pocket PC".

Relatedly, one of the very early "laptop" systems was from Hewlett-Packard,
the 110.




<DOS.18-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    18-Apr-06 22:08:05
HOST:    sverige

Affirmative of Robert's statements, I'll add that OS/2 itself was initiated
as some kind of joint venture between  IBM and MS. They had "a falling
out", the details of which I've no clue, and IBM continued OS/2
development. In fact, still today calls  for open-sourcing OS/2 are met
with "MS still owns some of the codeparts", though I'm not really sure
which ones.

In addition to IBM's PC-DOS  and MS's MS-DOS I think the first other was
Dr-DOS from Digital Research (which wrote CP/M); and there was a Novell DOS
which was probably their own. IIRC (which btw isn't very likely :), Caldera
purchased Dr-DOS, and somehow out of it all today is FreeDOS.

And there may have been embedded systems variants also. Several handheld
devices ran DOS; notably the HP-200lx (MS-DOS 5.00), the first "Pocket PC".

Relatedly, one of the very early "laptop" systems was from Hewlett-Packard,
the 110.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    18-Apr-06 22:34:54
HOST:    sverige

and I'll wager without looking that Wikipedia has the full history of DOS
variants; maybe the early history about how Bill Gates got into the game in
the very first place.

<DOS.18-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    18-Apr-06 22:34:54
HOST:    sverige

and I'll wager without looking that Wikipedia has the full history of DOS
variants; maybe the early history about how Bill Gates got into the game in
the very first place.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    20-Apr-06 04:31:11
HOST:    sverige

Fine. However, after MS left the OS/2 project, IBM continued active OS/2
development before, during, and after, the lifetime of NT.

<DOS.20-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DOS - the final frontier, to boldy boot where no OS has gon
DATE:    20-Apr-06 04:31:11
HOST:    sverige

Fine. However, after MS left the OS/2 project, IBM continued active OS/2
development before, during, and after, the lifetime of NT.

....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Help me design a MetaNet ..
DATE:    01-Jul-06 13:16:42
HOST:    sverige

I very much like the idea, and would be happy to jump in with both feet.

Several of us will still be tied to various careers, universities, and
other associations on the public internet, but it seems to me that anyone
can set up their DNS to lookup at multiple locations, so those wouldn't be
lost. They'd really just add the metanet DNS server, not replace the old
one[s].

IPs would still be controlled by the existing systems and ISPs, so MetaNet
DNS servers would probably be doing a lot of dynamic updaating ala mdns.org
but over several domains, .... if the projet went that way.

A central IRC server would be useful. While the project is developed at
SDF, it can have its own board, instead of GENERAL, and there could be
meetings in com.

SSL key generation might ought to be wrapped into something which minimizes
time involvement, and ensures certain protections controlling its use.

That's it for now. It's a nice project to have in mind.


<GENERAL.01-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Help me design a MetaNet ..
DATE:    01-Jul-06 13:16:42
HOST:    sverige

I very much like the idea, and would be happy to jump in with both feet.

Several of us will still be tied to various careers, universities, and
other associations on the public internet, but it seems to me that anyone
can set up their DNS to lookup at multiple locations, so those wouldn't be
lost. They'd really just add the metanet DNS server, not replace the old
one[s].

IPs would still be controlled by the existing systems and ISPs, so MetaNet
DNS servers would probably be doing a lot of dynamic updaating ala mdns.org
but over several domains, .... if the projet went that way.

A central IRC server would be useful. While the project is developed at
SDF, it can have its own board, instead of GENERAL, and there could be
meetings in com.

SSL key generation might ought to be wrapped into something which minimizes
time involvement, and ensures certain protections controlling its use.

That's it for now. It's a nice project to have in mind.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Help me design a MetaNet ..
DATE:    02-Jul-06 00:14:47
HOST:    sverige

it was asked here ...
"What is not good with the current internet, and how could it be better?"

My primary attraction to the proposal is the use of SSL encrypted and
authenticated connections for *everything*. I think that should become a
standard for the public network, because I believe that privacy is
important.


<GENERAL.02-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Help me design a MetaNet ..
DATE:    02-Jul-06 00:14:47
HOST:    sverige

it was asked here ...
"What is not good with the current internet, and how could it be better?"

My primary attraction to the proposal is the use of SSL encrypted and
authenticated connections for *everything*. I think that should become a
standard for the public network, because I believe that privacy is
important.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Help me design a MetaNet ..
DATE:    03-Jul-06 13:04:32
HOST:    sverige

I appreciate everybody's thoughts on this idea, and want to briefly respond
to one statement and to one possible misunderstanding.

To the statement, "The only drawbacks are the many ads in the web and the
spam", I add privacy as a drawback, and therefore (again) endorse SSL for
*everything* (which doesn't yet exist for  DNS).

To the perception that this would be some underground parallel or
replacement network, I offer that it is more of an extension, and does not
require disconnecting from the existing network.

As first starting points, there would be a DNS host set up to resolve .meta
domain names; and users would prepend this host to their named.root or
resolv files or to whatever their list of DNS resolution sources. You could
then browse to sdf.meta for instance.

(and a mdns.meta operation for dynamic hosts)

Second step would be to setup a Certificate Authority and processing
operation.

It's not so much a return to the way things were, as a prototype for how
things could evolve, by enabling the use of new top level domains (.meta)
and by enabling SSL encryption and authentication for everything.



<GENERAL.03-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Help me design a MetaNet ..
DATE:    03-Jul-06 13:04:32
HOST:    sverige

I appreciate everybody's thoughts on this idea, and want to briefly respond
to one statement and to one possible misunderstanding.

To the statement, "The only drawbacks are the many ads in the web and the
spam", I add privacy as a drawback, and therefore (again) endorse SSL for
*everything* (which doesn't yet exist for  DNS).

To the perception that this would be some underground parallel or
replacement network, I offer that it is more of an extension, and does not
require disconnecting from the existing network.

As first starting points, there would be a DNS host set up to resolve .meta
domain names; and users would prepend this host to their named.root or
resolv files or to whatever their list of DNS resolution sources. You could
then browse to sdf.meta for instance.

(and a mdns.meta operation for dynamic hosts)

Second step would be to setup a Certificate Authority and processing
operation.

It's not so much a return to the way things were, as a prototype for how
things could evolve, by enabling the use of new top level domains (.meta)
and by enabling SSL encryption and authentication for everything.



.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. The Great American Boycott 2006 TODAY!!!
DATE:    01-May-06 12:27:31
HOST:    sverige

It was on May 1 in 2003 that president  George Bush swaggered across the
flight deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln and declared "Mission Accomplished"
in Iraq.

three years ago today.

Maybe this year he'll strut thru New Orleans.

<GENERAL.01-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. The Great American Boycott 2006 TODAY!!!
DATE:    01-May-06 12:27:31
HOST:    sverige

It was on May 1 in 2003 that president  George Bush swaggered across the
flight deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln and declared "Mission Accomplished"
in Iraq.

three years ago today.

Maybe this year he'll strut thru New Orleans.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. The Great American Boycott 2006 TODAY!!!
DATE:    03-May-06 11:53:54
HOST:    sverige

Political solutions <gag> are as easy as repealing NAFTA

Huh?

Well, NAFTA was supposedly going to make things all rosy for folks in their
own countries. What we see is folks fleeing their own  countries.

Did you ever notice how people move into homes under airports, next to
sport stadiums and trains; and THEN complain about the noise?

Or how they move into a brand new subdivision in a cornfield, and then
complain about the developer putting more new homes in next to them?

It's not only that people have become complainers who don't think. It's
basically that they're selfish and arrogant, and hypocrits.

Or they do something bold, ... like make change, ... like ... move.

<GENERAL.03-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. The Great American Boycott 2006 TODAY!!!
DATE:    03-May-06 11:53:54
HOST:    sverige

Political solutions <gag> are as easy as repealing NAFTA

Huh?

Well, NAFTA was supposedly going to make things all rosy for folks in their
own countries. What we see is folks fleeing their own  countries.

Did you ever notice how people move into homes under airports, next to
sport stadiums and trains; and THEN complain about the noise?

Or how they move into a brand new subdivision in a cornfield, and then
complain about the developer putting more new homes in next to them?

It's not only that people have become complainers who don't think. It's
basically that they're selfish and arrogant, and hypocrits.

Or they do something bold, ... like make change, ... like ... move.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Stephen Jones on SDF @ bsdtalk.blogspot.com
DATE:    02-Mar-06 13:16:52
HOST:    sverige

That was nice! I recommend it to users and to the archive.


<GENERAL.02-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Stephen Jones on SDF @ bsdtalk.blogspot.com
DATE:    02-Mar-06 13:16:52
HOST:    sverige

That was nice! I recommend it to users and to the archive.


..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    07-Feb-06 00:44:52
HOST:    sverige

Observing the vote, I note ...

.. lots of sentiment for "second chance". From my reading of the
documentation in this thread and frosts's "my apology" thread, the current
vote is about giving frost a 3rd, not 2nd, chance. His/her apology to SDF
was lame, and he resisted answering my question about *what* he learned.
When smj reminded him to apologize, frost said (in this thread) "I thought
you were kidding about that." Ergo, it's now the 3rd chance.

.. a surprising quantity of statements of the nature "clearly a violation
of AUP, but that's ok; maybe he/she won't do it again"

Well, maybe *if* without being further prodded into it frost would
acknowledge an awareness of exactly which of the AUP he/she violated, and
that violating AUP is wrong, and that the violation of those specific
provisions is wrong (which is why they're in AUP), not that getting caught
is wrong or regrettable or ineviatable (or the lesson learned, as he
stated), then we'd actually have a situation much different from that which
we have now.

.. sentiment that frost is probably just too immature to expected to know
the difference between right and wrong, or to see beyond or within "getting
caught"; suggesting that we treat him like a puppy which will ineviatably
piss on the indoor furnishings before being trained to wait for a tree.

User frost is definitely not close to ready for Meta-ARPA level privs here.

Maybe a good solution is to apply a penalty of ineligible for Meta-ARPA
membership for a minimum of 24 months; and possibly remove some ARPA privs
to the Meta or other more responsible level of trust.

Again, I find myself endorsing a graduated scale of membership based first
upon proven trust (with time); but I still haven't learned to keep my posts
to just one topic/issue at a time.

--thanks for reading,


<GENERAL.07-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    07-Feb-06 00:44:52
HOST:    sverige

Observing the vote, I note ...

.. lots of sentiment for "second chance". From my reading of the
documentation in this thread and frosts's "my apology" thread, the current
vote is about giving frost a 3rd, not 2nd, chance. His/her apology to SDF
was lame, and he resisted answering my question about *what* he learned.
When smj reminded him to apologize, frost said (in this thread) "I thought
you were kidding about that." Ergo, it's now the 3rd chance.

.. a surprising quantity of statements of the nature "clearly a violation
of AUP, but that's ok; maybe he/she won't do it again"

Well, maybe *if* without being further prodded into it frost would
acknowledge an awareness of exactly which of the AUP he/she violated, and
that violating AUP is wrong, and that the violation of those specific
provisions is wrong (which is why they're in AUP), not that getting caught
is wrong or regrettable or ineviatable (or the lesson learned, as he
stated), then we'd actually have a situation much different from that which
we have now.

.. sentiment that frost is probably just too immature to expected to know
the difference between right and wrong, or to see beyond or within "getting
caught"; suggesting that we treat him like a puppy which will ineviatably
piss on the indoor furnishings before being trained to wait for a tree.

User frost is definitely not close to ready for Meta-ARPA level privs here.

Maybe a good solution is to apply a penalty of ineligible for Meta-ARPA
membership for a minimum of 24 months; and possibly remove some ARPA privs
to the Meta or other more responsible level of trust.

Again, I find myself endorsing a graduated scale of membership based first
upon proven trust (with time); but I still haven't learned to keep my posts
to just one topic/issue at a time.

--thanks for reading,


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    11-Feb-06 20:11:59
HOST:    sverige

sorry to see this thread expire at this point

<GENERAL.11-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    11-Feb-06 20:11:59
HOST:    sverige

sorry to see this thread expire at this point

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    23-Feb-06 12:27:34
HOST:    sverige

"That USENET post kinda makes you wonder who or what else is being molested
by these jesus worshiping religious figures? frost, you could have made
that post elsewhere"

Perhaps your point should also have been posted to a more appropriate
location.

", like on your home computer."

<GENERAL.23-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    23-Feb-06 12:27:34
HOST:    sverige

"That USENET post kinda makes you wonder who or what else is being molested
by these jesus worshiping religious figures? frost, you could have made
that post elsewhere"

Perhaps your point should also have been posted to a more appropriate
location.

", like on your home computer."

TACKER:  ladams (Lance Adams)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    23-Feb-06 15:42:44
HOST:    ukato

Did you read the rest of my post...you fuck?

"Perhaps your point should also have been posted to a more appropriate
location."

And I'll quote myself: ""Fuck em <avoyager> if they can't take a joke""

<GENERAL.23-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  ladams (Lance Adams)
SUBJECT: .. user 'frost' has had his account suspended
DATE:    23-Feb-06 15:42:44
HOST:    ukato

Did you read the rest of my post...you fuck?

"Perhaps your point should also have been posted to a more appropriate
location."

And I'll quote myself: ""Fuck em <avoyager> if they can't take a joke""

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    04-Feb-06 13:08:43
HOST:    sverige

user 'frost' said "In closing I would like to say that in the days I have
had to live with this shame, I have learned a lesson I will not soon
forget."

Please share with us, by description, this lesson.

Thank you.

<GENERAL.04-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    04-Feb-06 13:08:43
HOST:    sverige

user 'frost' said "In closing I would like to say that in the days I have
had to live with this shame, I have learned a lesson I will not soon
forget."

Please share with us, by description, this lesson.

Thank you.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    05-Feb-06 10:46:35
HOST:    sverige

frost, you have stated *that* you learned some lesson[s] in this
experience, but you have not said *what* it is that you have leaned.

This is  my *second * request for this information; and I consider the
request to be both reasonable and appropriate for your situation.


<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    05-Feb-06 10:46:35
HOST:    sverige

frost, you have stated *that* you learned some lesson[s] in this
experience, but you have not said *what* it is that you have leaned.

This is  my *second * request for this information; and I consider the
request to be both reasonable and appropriate for your situation.


TACKER:  frost (frost)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    06-Feb-06 09:49:06
HOST:    sdf


koenig (Greg Koenig) worte:

    * You've said a few times that you are "sorry", but I am wondering whether
    you are sorry for what you did, sorry for the inconvenience you caused the
    other users of SDF, or simply sorry that you got caught.

    * Why single out Pastor Dave and the group alt.christnet.christianlife?
    Was this someone who had somehow wronged you in the past, or just someone
    you randomly picked?  If randomly picked, why would you think saying the
    things you said would be "funny"?


I am sorry for what I did, and for the inconvenience to the sdf users.

I guess I chose Pastor Dave because I saw the "Pastor" there and thought it
might have been funny, I guess it wasn't.


avoyager (Avo Yager)

   frost, you have stated *that* you learned some lesson[s] in this
   experience, but you have not said *what* it is that you have leaned.

The lesson I learned from what happened to me is that if you do
something that breaks the law or defames someone or in this case
telling lies, that you will get caught sooner or later. I'll ever
do something like that again, because now I know I shouldn't.



And also I did post an apology to Pastor Dave in
alt.christnet.christianlife the tittle was "My Apology to Pastor Dave".

<GENERAL.06-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  frost (frost)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    06-Feb-06 09:49:06
HOST:    sdf


koenig (Greg Koenig) worte:

    * You've said a few times that you are "sorry", but I am wondering whether
    you are sorry for what you did, sorry for the inconvenience you caused the
    other users of SDF, or simply sorry that you got caught.

    * Why single out Pastor Dave and the group alt.christnet.christianlife?
    Was this someone who had somehow wronged you in the past, or just someone
    you randomly picked?  If randomly picked, why would you think saying the
    things you said would be "funny"?


I am sorry for what I did, and for the inconvenience to the sdf users.

I guess I chose Pastor Dave because I saw the "Pastor" there and thought it
might have been funny, I guess it wasn't.


avoyager (Avo Yager)

   frost, you have stated *that* you learned some lesson[s] in this
   experience, but you have not said *what* it is that you have leaned.

The lesson I learned from what happened to me is that if you do
something that breaks the law or defames someone or in this case
telling lies, that you will get caught sooner or later. I'll ever
do something like that again, because now I know I shouldn't.



And also I did post an apology to Pastor Dave in
alt.christnet.christianlife the tittle was "My Apology to Pastor Dave".

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    06-Feb-06 13:08:54
HOST:    sverige

koenig (Greg Koenig) worte:
    * You've said a few times that you are "sorry", but I am wondering
whether you are sorry for what you did, sorry for the inconvenience you
caused the other users of SDF, or simply sorry that you got caught.

frost subsequently wrote:
    * The lesson I learned from what happened to me is that if you do
something that breaks the law or defames someone or in this case
telling lies, that you will get caught sooner or later.

<GENERAL.06-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. My Apology
DATE:    06-Feb-06 13:08:54
HOST:    sverige

koenig (Greg Koenig) worte:
    * You've said a few times that you are "sorry", but I am wondering
whether you are sorry for what you did, sorry for the inconvenience you
caused the other users of SDF, or simply sorry that you got caught.

frost subsequently wrote:
    * The lesson I learned from what happened to me is that if you do
something that breaks the law or defames someone or in this case
telling lies, that you will get caught sooner or later.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. the end of the world?
DATE:    03-Oct-06 20:47:44
HOST:    sverige

Viva Le Libra!

<GENERAL.03-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. the end of the world?
DATE:    03-Oct-06 20:47:44
HOST:    sverige

Viva Le Libra!

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. mandelbrot sets
DATE:    04-Dec-05 07:10:50
HOST:    sverige

fractint for bsd ??

sdf ~~  Stonesoup De Fractal ??


<GENERAL.04-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. mandelbrot sets
DATE:    04-Dec-05 07:10:50
HOST:    sverige

fractint for bsd ??

sdf ~~  Stonesoup De Fractal ??


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 15:48:20
HOST:    sverige

named.conf://   listen-on { 127.0.0.1; 192.168.1.7; };

<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 15:48:20
HOST:    sverige

named.conf://   listen-on { 127.0.0.1; 192.168.1.7; };

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 15:52:21
HOST:    ukato

WOOO!  Avoyager, don't be creeped out by this, but I think I love you!  I
am a bit embarassed that in BIG LETTERS it spells out that you have to fix
that...

Now I _have_ DNS (no more quasi stuff).  Woohoo!

Nic

<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 15:52:21
HOST:    ukato

WOOO!  Avoyager, don't be creeped out by this, but I think I love you!  I
am a bit embarassed that in BIG LETTERS it spells out that you have to fix
that...

Now I _have_ DNS (no more quasi stuff).  Woohoo!

Nic

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 16:24:22
HOST:    sverige

Nic, here's the next nice Bind trick:

zone "ads.web.aol.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "fastclick.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "fastclick.net" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "adserver.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };

the nullify.zone file contains:

$TTL 86400; @ IN SOA localhost. root.localhost. ( 1 36000 1200 604800 86400
)
       IN NS @

use it for all the sites you want to disappear from the internet

(I hope this page wraps legibly when posted)

--cheers!

<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 16:24:22
HOST:    sverige

Nic, here's the next nice Bind trick:

zone "ads.web.aol.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "fastclick.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "fastclick.net" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };
zone "adserver.com" in { type master; file "nullify.zone"; };

the nullify.zone file contains:

$TTL 86400; @ IN SOA localhost. root.localhost. ( 1 36000 1200 604800 86400
)
       IN NS @

use it for all the sites you want to disappear from the internet

(I hope this page wraps legibly when posted)

--cheers!

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 16:53:43
HOST:    ukato

avoyager--

That is a very neat idea.  It seems to be working, except that when I
reboot 'named' it complains that every site with the nullify.zone file "has
no NS records".

Is it important to leave the "IN NS @" part in there?  I haven't honestly
learned the details of how the .zone or .rev files work yet.

Still, I'm enjoying having a T1 connection to myself right now... I could
see the benefit of becoming REAL handy with BIND!

Nic

<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 16:53:43
HOST:    ukato

avoyager--

That is a very neat idea.  It seems to be working, except that when I
reboot 'named' it complains that every site with the nullify.zone file "has
no NS records".

Is it important to leave the "IN NS @" part in there?  I haven't honestly
learned the details of how the .zone or .rev files work yet.

Still, I'm enjoying having a T1 connection to myself right now... I could
see the benefit of becoming REAL handy with BIND!

Nic

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 19:23:00
HOST:    sverige

Nic,

That's the whole idea! No NS records!

:)

<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. apartment's Internet connection rendered useless
DATE:    05-Feb-06 19:23:00
HOST:    sverige

Nic,

That's the whole idea! No NS records!

:)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ARPA member vote on user 'frost'
DATE:    05-Feb-06 20:55:17
HOST:    sverige

avoyager:  AYE

I've seen no real indication of sincere repentance or reformation, which
saddens me. I thought it very noble of smj to encourage personal growth and
to provide more than a fair opportunity for this misfit to learn and
develop.

User frosts's arrogant disdain for this gracious opportunity renders him
most unfit for membership this fine community.


<GENERAL.05-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ARPA member vote on user 'frost'
DATE:    05-Feb-06 20:55:17
HOST:    sverige

avoyager:  AYE

I've seen no real indication of sincere repentance or reformation, which
saddens me. I thought it very noble of smj to encourage personal growth and
to provide more than a fair opportunity for this misfit to learn and
develop.

User frosts's arrogant disdain for this gracious opportunity renders him
most unfit for membership this fine community.


..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Deleting "DON'T DELTE THIS MESSAGE"
DATE:    05-Sep-06 14:35:08
HOST:    sverige

and "Don't remove this tag" from your mattress either :)

<GENERAL.05-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Deleting "DON'T DELTE THIS MESSAGE"
DATE:    05-Sep-06 14:35:08
HOST:    sverige

and "Don't remove this tag" from your mattress either :)

TACKER:  shinji (Robert Pendell)
SUBJECT: .. Deleting "DON'T DELTE THIS MESSAGE"
DATE:    05-Sep-06 23:43:20
HOST:    sverige

@avoyager
Not to go off topic here or anything but the "Don't remove this tag" crap
only applies to the people selling it.  The consumer can remove the tag
without ever getting in trouble.  They had revised the wording on the tag
at one point to clarify that.

<GENERAL.05-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  shinji (Robert Pendell)
SUBJECT: .. Deleting "DON'T DELTE THIS MESSAGE"
DATE:    05-Sep-06 23:43:20
HOST:    sverige

@avoyager
Not to go off topic here or anything but the "Don't remove this tag" crap
only applies to the people selling it.  The consumer can remove the tag
without ever getting in trouble.  They had revised the wording on the tag
at one point to clarify that.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Deleting "DON'T DELTE THIS MESSAGE"
DATE:    06-Sep-06 01:40:47
HOST:    sverige

Robert, not to go further off topic here, but "Stop" signs don't mean to me
that I should come to a complete halt. To me they mean that if I'm involved
in a collision within the intersection, then it will have been my fault.

;-}

It's possible that I came to this conclusion in part as a consequence of
tearing those labels off all my matresses, pillows, and sleeping bags.



<GENERAL.06-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Deleting "DON'T DELTE THIS MESSAGE"
DATE:    06-Sep-06 01:40:47
HOST:    sverige

Robert, not to go further off topic here, but "Stop" signs don't mean to me
that I should come to a complete halt. To me they mean that if I'm involved
in a collision within the intersection, then it will have been my fault.

;-}

It's possible that I came to this conclusion in part as a consequence of
tearing those labels off all my matresses, pillows, and sleeping bags.



..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Digital Cameras
DATE:    07-Jun-06 21:28:05
HOST:    sverige

Local camera shop guy says, "In the mid-range they're all the same, and
they're all fragile. Samsung are best, Canon overpriced, and stay away from
Cassio."


<GENERAL.07-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Digital Cameras
DATE:    07-Jun-06 21:28:05
HOST:    sverige

Local camera shop guy says, "In the mid-range they're all the same, and
they're all fragile. Samsung are best, Canon overpriced, and stay away from
Cassio."


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Digital Cameras
DATE:    09-Jun-06 02:43:09
HOST:    sverige

Most of the mid-range stuff is now double-A's. I prefer that to proprietary
power and charging sources. Rechargable NiMH batteries are readily
available at 2000mAh. My last batch of 1700mAh cells lasted at least three
years before crumping out. They'll also keep the camera going longer than
Alkalines.

<GENERAL.09-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Digital Cameras
DATE:    09-Jun-06 02:43:09
HOST:    sverige

Most of the mid-range stuff is now double-A's. I prefer that to proprietary
power and charging sources. Rechargable NiMH batteries are readily
available at 2000mAh. My last batch of 1700mAh cells lasted at least three
years before crumping out. They'll also keep the camera going longer than
Alkalines.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DON'T FORGET TO VOTE TUESDAY!
DATE:    08-Nov-06 19:14:27
HOST:    sverige

OK. Now that the U.S. electorate has replaced some shit-heads with some
dip-shits, .... um, ..... well, ...... uuhh, .......

..... the Daily Show should be pretty good this week.

<GENERAL.08-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DON'T FORGET TO VOTE TUESDAY!
DATE:    08-Nov-06 19:14:27
HOST:    sverige

OK. Now that the U.S. electorate has replaced some shit-heads with some
dip-shits, .... um, ..... well, ...... uuhh, .......

..... the Daily Show should be pretty good this week.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A Rational, Friendly Discussion on Operating Systems
DATE:    07-Sep-06 12:01:38
HOST:    sverige

I've never seen a semi-technical discussion of the core distinctions
between a BSD and a linux which worked for me. Perhaps this can become one,
and certainly  I should take another look at that is on SDF for this topic.
The best was something about how the kernel is packaged, whether modular or
not, but at the time I really didn't grok it.

My history is DOS to DesqView (in DOS) to OS/2 (with DOS) which is my
primary system today many years later. I've worked with Windows but never
liked it at all until 2000 Pro.

I have experience with BSD as an SDF Meta-ARPA member, and with Debian as
my remote VPS. As a command line user, I find the two to be nearly
indistinguishable. As a quasi-pseudo-bonzai-admin-in-training, I can see a
few differences in the layout of configuration files and probably the
bootup/startup details.

I've spent several years with a weather eye open toward looking for the
right move to make (from OS/2) when it is eventually required, or otherwise
most propitious. I've given up on either being successful DOS platforms
until one of the Virtual PC teams, such as Parallels, provides it.

As a desktop GUI, from what I can tell, many of them will install in either
OS base, so at that point there's no more discussion of the operating
systems themselves, only their accutremants.

Security and stability seem to be nearly equivalent between the two, so my
most pressing concerns have centered on package/dependency management and
the lack of restrictions against supporting different hardware and
applications.

The word from trusted sources, including smj, has been in favor of BSD, but
in the end

1.) it was lots easier to find a VPS solution for it;

2.) it was Debian, not NetBSD, which installed successfully here as a
Connectix VirtualPC sponsored guest system;

3.) I've spent my life supporting "the better" technologies while they fail
in the marketplace and cease to become viable. I still like to stick to my
guns and fight for my causes, but it really is getting kinda tiresome being
left in the dust with obsolete versions of nearly essential tools such as
Acrobat Reader and Flash.

4.) I'm happy with Debian, and see no reason why I should change to any of
the BSDs other than to support, at my expense, the noble and worthy cause.

I'd rather sacrifice for peace and integrity now in my few remaining years.

Since you asked, ;-}
-avo

<GENERAL.07-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A Rational, Friendly Discussion on Operating Systems
DATE:    07-Sep-06 12:01:38
HOST:    sverige

I've never seen a semi-technical discussion of the core distinctions
between a BSD and a linux which worked for me. Perhaps this can become one,
and certainly  I should take another look at that is on SDF for this topic.
The best was something about how the kernel is packaged, whether modular or
not, but at the time I really didn't grok it.

My history is DOS to DesqView (in DOS) to OS/2 (with DOS) which is my
primary system today many years later. I've worked with Windows but never
liked it at all until 2000 Pro.

I have experience with BSD as an SDF Meta-ARPA member, and with Debian as
my remote VPS. As a command line user, I find the two to be nearly
indistinguishable. As a quasi-pseudo-bonzai-admin-in-training, I can see a
few differences in the layout of configuration files and probably the
bootup/startup details.

I've spent several years with a weather eye open toward looking for the
right move to make (from OS/2) when it is eventually required, or otherwise
most propitious. I've given up on either being successful DOS platforms
until one of the Virtual PC teams, such as Parallels, provides it.

As a desktop GUI, from what I can tell, many of them will install in either
OS base, so at that point there's no more discussion of the operating
systems themselves, only their accutremants.

Security and stability seem to be nearly equivalent between the two, so my
most pressing concerns have centered on package/dependency management and
the lack of restrictions against supporting different hardware and
applications.

The word from trusted sources, including smj, has been in favor of BSD, but
in the end

1.) it was lots easier to find a VPS solution for it;

2.) it was Debian, not NetBSD, which installed successfully here as a
Connectix VirtualPC sponsored guest system;

3.) I've spent my life supporting "the better" technologies while they fail
in the marketplace and cease to become viable. I still like to stick to my
guns and fight for my causes, but it really is getting kinda tiresome being
left in the dust with obsolete versions of nearly essential tools such as
Acrobat Reader and Flash.

4.) I'm happy with Debian, and see no reason why I should change to any of
the BSDs other than to support, at my expense, the noble and worthy cause.

I'd rather sacrifice for peace and integrity now in my few remaining years.

Since you asked, ;-}
-avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A Rational, Friendly Discussion on Operating Systems
DATE:    08-Sep-06 01:05:51
HOST:    sverige

Thank you for that link, James. I enjoyed the read, but really didn't find
the "arguments" (because they weren't designed to be) compelling. The
leading summary (below) is very sensible to me however, and pretty much
clarifies for me the whole picture.

"BSD is what you get when a bunch of Unix hackers sit down to try to port a
Unix system to the PC. Linux is what you get when a bunch of PC hackers sit
down and try to write a Unix system for the PC."

It's good that we have both.

<GENERAL.08-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. A Rational, Friendly Discussion on Operating Systems
DATE:    08-Sep-06 01:05:51
HOST:    sverige

Thank you for that link, James. I enjoyed the read, but really didn't find
the "arguments" (because they weren't designed to be) compelling. The
leading summary (below) is very sensible to me however, and pretty much
clarifies for me the whole picture.

"BSD is what you get when a bunch of Unix hackers sit down to try to port a
Unix system to the PC. Linux is what you get when a bunch of PC hackers sit
down and try to write a Unix system for the PC."

It's good that we have both.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    08-Feb-06 20:56:10
HOST:    sverige

It would seem preferable to me that action be first taken to reduce
poverty. THEN, as a consequence, there would result a general reduction in
personal (not corporate or political or financial) crime, a general
improvement to the local economies (more consumers purchasing more), a
general decrease in homelessness, and a general upward spiral of beneficial
consequences such as employment and production.

It only requires political will.





<GENERAL.08-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    08-Feb-06 20:56:10
HOST:    sverige

It would seem preferable to me that action be first taken to reduce
poverty. THEN, as a consequence, there would result a general reduction in
personal (not corporate or political or financial) crime, a general
improvement to the local economies (more consumers purchasing more), a
general decrease in homelessness, and a general upward spiral of beneficial
consequences such as employment and production.

It only requires political will.





TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    09-Feb-06 03:23:33
HOST:    sverige

it was here said:
"I don't believe that social welfare is the responsibility of the
government, personally. This is what the churches and rescue missions are
supposed to be doing."

My rebuttal is ... then WHAT is the responsibility of the government? After
all, the preamble of the U.S. Constitution does declare that the people
create the government for the purpose of ensuring their common interests
including specifically the general welfare.

There even used to be a cabinet level Department of Health, Education, and
Welfare. Since then, "welfare" has been redefined by partisan interests to
infer some kind of hardship upon the ruling minority, rather than its
original reference to the well-being of all, notably food, clothing, and
shelter.

The reality in U.S. controlled countries is ... that business/economic
interests control the government, as forewarned by Roosevelt; and that
worse yet, the business interests are dominated by military (anti-peace
pro-poverty) interests, as forewarned by Eisenhower.

The political solution is to reject the two-party illusion.

The economic solution is to not feed the beast; and to return to a
distributed and loccalized ownership model which empowers rather than
enslaves more people.

The social solution is to localize political and economic determination.

The ultimate solution is spiritual, because the natural solutions are at
best improbable, and more probably impossible, to achieve; at least by
natural, rather than spiritual, beings.

There you have it. I've bet that you haven't reached/read/achieved this far
yet again. Which is in part why you're in the unfortunate and astoundingly
ridiculous predicament/quagmire you're in.

-- so be it






<GENERAL.09-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    09-Feb-06 03:23:33
HOST:    sverige

it was here said:
"I don't believe that social welfare is the responsibility of the
government, personally. This is what the churches and rescue missions are
supposed to be doing."

My rebuttal is ... then WHAT is the responsibility of the government? After
all, the preamble of the U.S. Constitution does declare that the people
create the government for the purpose of ensuring their common interests
including specifically the general welfare.

There even used to be a cabinet level Department of Health, Education, and
Welfare. Since then, "welfare" has been redefined by partisan interests to
infer some kind of hardship upon the ruling minority, rather than its
original reference to the well-being of all, notably food, clothing, and
shelter.

The reality in U.S. controlled countries is ... that business/economic
interests control the government, as forewarned by Roosevelt; and that
worse yet, the business interests are dominated by military (anti-peace
pro-poverty) interests, as forewarned by Eisenhower.

The political solution is to reject the two-party illusion.

The economic solution is to not feed the beast; and to return to a
distributed and loccalized ownership model which empowers rather than
enslaves more people.

The social solution is to localize political and economic determination.

The ultimate solution is spiritual, because the natural solutions are at
best improbable, and more probably impossible, to achieve; at least by
natural, rather than spiritual, beings.

There you have it. I've bet that you haven't reached/read/achieved this far
yet again. Which is in part why you're in the unfortunate and astoundingly
ridiculous predicament/quagmire you're in.

-- so be it






TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    10-Feb-06 19:26:07
HOST:    sverige

the purpose of government is to PRINT MONEY and give it to partisan
benefactors

OR you could read in the  Constitution what the government purpose is.


<GENERAL.10-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    10-Feb-06 19:26:07
HOST:    sverige

the purpose of government is to PRINT MONEY and give it to partisan
benefactors

OR you could read in the  Constitution what the government purpose is.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    10-Feb-06 19:29:34
HOST:    sverige

it was said here that "The purpose of the government is to:
A) Keep us safe from foreign/domestic/terroist attacks"

One of the fallacies of this position is that governments existed long
before the Rumsfeld-Cheney-Carlyle cabal, or their predecessors, provoked
Islamist and Zionist extremists.


<GENERAL.10-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ending homelessness
DATE:    10-Feb-06 19:29:34
HOST:    sverige

it was said here that "The purpose of the government is to:
A) Keep us safe from foreign/domestic/terroist attacks"

One of the fallacies of this position is that governments existed long
before the Rumsfeld-Cheney-Carlyle cabal, or their predecessors, provoked
Islamist and Zionist extremists.


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. finger?
DATE:    10-Apr-06 21:19:16
HOST:    sverige

.. and, if sensible, maybe use .plan .profile and .pgpkey files ??

<GENERAL.10-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. finger?
DATE:    10-Apr-06 21:19:16
HOST:    sverige

.. and, if sensible, maybe use .plan .profile and .pgpkey files ??

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. finger?
DATE:    11-Apr-06 02:50:49
HOST:    sverige

a quick web search shows that there are some other daemons, ffingerd and
cfingerd for starters; and that .nofinger could be used to display
non-standard content, or to generate a response equivalent of that for
unknown user.

A nice setup might be ...
case of
       .nofinger exists empty: behave as if no user;
       .nofinger exists with content: display;
else behave as normal;

(with apologies for the semi-obscure syntax <g>)





<GENERAL.11-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. finger?
DATE:    11-Apr-06 02:50:49
HOST:    sverige

a quick web search shows that there are some other daemons, ffingerd and
cfingerd for starters; and that .nofinger could be used to display
non-standard content, or to generate a response equivalent of that for
unknown user.

A nice setup might be ...
case of
       .nofinger exists empty: behave as if no user;
       .nofinger exists with content: display;
else behave as normal;

(with apologies for the semi-obscure syntax <g>)





TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t
DATE:    10-Oct-06 18:01:03
HOST:    sverige

I don't know the answer to your question, but 'greylist -t' is a toggle, so
using it twice doesn't make double sure that it's off :)

Just as seriously, nobody has magic answers to mysterious events at SDF.
The general rule-of-thumb is to not panic, to observe carefully over time,
and to not panic and then to reassess the situation on another day.

--
since you asked

--
free hint #n:
not all questions demand, or deserve, or even have, an answer.

<GENERAL.10-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t
DATE:    10-Oct-06 18:01:03
HOST:    sverige

I don't know the answer to your question, but 'greylist -t' is a toggle, so
using it twice doesn't make double sure that it's off :)

Just as seriously, nobody has magic answers to mysterious events at SDF.
The general rule-of-thumb is to not panic, to observe carefully over time,
and to not panic and then to reassess the situation on another day.

--
since you asked

--
free hint #n:
not all questions demand, or deserve, or even have, an answer.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Lack of sleep ('Motivation' subthread)
DATE:    15-May-06 12:32:28
HOST:    sverige

"What should I eat or drink when I get up late"

Water. Always lots of water. You can't get too much water, and probably
nothing is more conducive to your overall health and wellbeing than water.

Tea counts. Beer does not.

Since you asked :)

<GENERAL.15-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Lack of sleep ('Motivation' subthread)
DATE:    15-May-06 12:32:28
HOST:    sverige

"What should I eat or drink when I get up late"

Water. Always lots of water. You can't get too much water, and probably
nothing is more conducive to your overall health and wellbeing than water.

Tea counts. Beer does not.

Since you asked :)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Lack of sleep ('Motivation' subthread)
DATE:    16-May-06 02:20:46
HOST:    sverige

Water_intoxication : interesting; thank you.

<GENERAL.16-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Lack of sleep ('Motivation' subthread)
DATE:    16-May-06 02:20:46
HOST:    sverige

Water_intoxication : interesting; thank you.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Downloading Wikipedia?
DATE:    12-Apr-06 12:02:17
HOST:    sverige

sounds like a good bittorrent application. I'm sure they don't want
hundreds of simultaneous ftp sessions going on those puppies.

<GENERAL.12-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Downloading Wikipedia?
DATE:    12-Apr-06 12:02:17
HOST:    sverige

sounds like a good bittorrent application. I'm sure they don't want
hundreds of simultaneous ftp sessions going on those puppies.

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Cirque Du Soleil
DATE:    15-Apr-06 00:34:08
HOST:    sverige

TicketMaster isn't necessarily the scalper there. Those seats are
expensive, and worth it. Very incredible shows, all of them.

<GENERAL.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Cirque Du Soleil
DATE:    15-Apr-06 00:34:08
HOST:    sverige

TicketMaster isn't necessarily the scalper there. Those seats are
expensive, and worth it. Very incredible shows, all of them.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Cirque Du Soleil
DATE:    15-Apr-06 00:36:20
HOST:    sverige

in fact, you'll probably want to get on their email notification list,
because the probability is pretty high that you won't otherwise get a
ticket at the door.

in my experience; yours may vary.

<GENERAL.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Cirque Du Soleil
DATE:    15-Apr-06 00:36:20
HOST:    sverige

in fact, you'll probably want to get on their email notification list,
because the probability is pretty high that you won't otherwise get a
ticket at the door.

in my experience; yours may vary.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Is the NON dead?
DATE:    15-Nov-06 20:21:30
HOST:    sverige

I hope, and think, that the NON is only dormant, waiting for enough support
to either motivate smj or wrest some of the initiative from his control.

Interested individuals are welcome to join the idle yet persistent group at
irc.chatspike.net #The_NON (SSL via :6668) and to post at
https://forum.nonnic.org/


<GENERAL.15-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Is the NON dead?
DATE:    15-Nov-06 20:21:30
HOST:    sverige

I hope, and think, that the NON is only dormant, waiting for enough support
to either motivate smj or wrest some of the initiative from his control.

Interested individuals are welcome to join the idle yet persistent group at
irc.chatspike.net #The_NON (SSL via :6668) and to post at
https://forum.nonnic.org/


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. need smtp server
DATE:    21-Feb-06 02:26:10
HOST:    sverige

Remember when you log into smtp.freeshell.org to use your domain name (i.e.
sheywood.freeshell.org or a vhosted domain name) as the userid for the smtp
auth; and the password/secret set up with mkvpm.

<GENERAL.21-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. need smtp server
DATE:    21-Feb-06 02:26:10
HOST:    sverige

Remember when you log into smtp.freeshell.org to use your domain name (i.e.
sheywood.freeshell.org or a vhosted domain name) as the userid for the smtp
auth; and the password/secret set up with mkvpm.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. need smtp server
DATE:    22-Feb-06 14:40:32
HOST:    sverige

"What I am trying to do is to use sdf's smtp server to send mail
while doing Pine and while logged on to sdf.  I don't know why
sdf's smtp server won't work for me while I am logged onto sdf."

for Pine running on SDF, delete the configuration value for smtp-server.
Since you're logged in and using the SDF local pine, auth is not required
or used.

for Pine running on your home computer, for VPM/VHOST userrs, set
smtp-server=smtp.freeshell.org/notls/user=sheywood.freeshell.org
and run mkvpm to set your password=secret

for Dialup users, see smj's instructions in prior post

If you're running Pine on your local computer, the inbox spec has to
include /pop3 because Pine defaults to IMAP
inbox-path={mail.freeshell.org/pop3/user=....}INBOX

<GENERAL.22-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. need smtp server
DATE:    22-Feb-06 14:40:32
HOST:    sverige

"What I am trying to do is to use sdf's smtp server to send mail
while doing Pine and while logged on to sdf.  I don't know why
sdf's smtp server won't work for me while I am logged onto sdf."

for Pine running on SDF, delete the configuration value for smtp-server.
Since you're logged in and using the SDF local pine, auth is not required
or used.

for Pine running on your home computer, for VPM/VHOST userrs, set
smtp-server=smtp.freeshell.org/notls/user=sheywood.freeshell.org
and run mkvpm to set your password=secret

for Dialup users, see smj's instructions in prior post

If you're running Pine on your local computer, the inbox spec has to
include /pop3 because Pine defaults to IMAP
inbox-path={mail.freeshell.org/pop3/user=....}INBOX

TACKER:  sheywood (Samuel W. Heywood)
SUBJECT: .. need smtp server
DATE:    23-Feb-06 02:15:41
HOST:    sdf

To avoyager:

You advised:

"For Pine running on SDF, delete the configuration value for smtp server.
Since you are logged in and using the sdf local pine, auth is not
required or used."

Thanks a lot.  I checked out your advice, tested it, and it works!


<GENERAL.23-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  sheywood (Samuel W. Heywood)
SUBJECT: .. need smtp server
DATE:    23-Feb-06 02:15:41
HOST:    sdf

To avoyager:

You advised:

"For Pine running on SDF, delete the configuration value for smtp server.
Since you are logged in and using the sdf local pine, auth is not
required or used."

Thanks a lot.  I checked out your advice, tested it, and it works!


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. NetBSD Man pages
DATE:    17-Mar-06 15:55:42
HOST:    sverige

well, I'm not sure what exactly constitutes your set of man pages, but I
note after a little research that the published NetBSD Guide is about 366
pages in .pdf, and that in /usr/share/man ...

the average file size in  man1 is (tar.1) 9.5k which outputs 220 lines of
text including blanks;

there are roughly 4500k totals in man1 and 22000k in  man*;

at a generous 65 lines per printed sheet, that'd be
108,000 pages in man1 and half a million  pages in man*

You're welcome to check my my calculations of course, and to remind me that
you weren't looking to print all the man pages published on the system.

but I couldn't find the smaller subset.

<GENERAL.17-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. NetBSD Man pages
DATE:    17-Mar-06 15:55:42
HOST:    sverige

well, I'm not sure what exactly constitutes your set of man pages, but I
note after a little research that the published NetBSD Guide is about 366
pages in .pdf, and that in /usr/share/man ...

the average file size in  man1 is (tar.1) 9.5k which outputs 220 lines of
text including blanks;

there are roughly 4500k totals in man1 and 22000k in  man*;

at a generous 65 lines per printed sheet, that'd be
108,000 pages in man1 and half a million  pages in man*

You're welcome to check my my calculations of course, and to remind me that
you weren't looking to print all the man pages published on the system.

but I couldn't find the smaller subset.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. party planning help needed
DATE:    18-May-06 11:29:56
HOST:    sverige

ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s

however, the wikipedia article fails to mention the 18 May 1980 eruption of
Mt. St. Helens, noting today's "anniversary" thereof

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/MSH/May18/summary_may18_eruption.html


<GENERAL.18-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. party planning help needed
DATE:    18-May-06 11:29:56
HOST:    sverige

ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s

however, the wikipedia article fails to mention the 18 May 1980 eruption of
Mt. St. Helens, noting today's "anniversary" thereof

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/MSH/May18/summary_may18_eruption.html


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Goodbye
DATE:    13-Sep-06 20:11:26
HOST:    sverige


20594 samble    62    4  2736K 1096K RUN      492:20 22.85% 22.85% uxlisp
6069 barnacle  62    4  1712K 1744K RUN       22.9H 21.92% 21.92% naim
21194 abowman   62    4  2632K 3944K RUN      424:21 21.19% 21.19% naim

hhhhmmmmm......

<GENERAL.13-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Goodbye
DATE:    13-Sep-06 20:11:26
HOST:    sverige


20594 samble    62    4  2736K 1096K RUN      492:20 22.85% 22.85% uxlisp
6069 barnacle  62    4  1712K 1744K RUN       22.9H 21.92% 21.92% naim
21194 abowman   62    4  2632K 3944K RUN      424:21 21.19% 21.19% naim

hhhhmmmmm......

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Goodbye
DATE:    24-Aug-06 02:59:55
HOST:    sverige

quite so!! http://barnacle.freeshell.org/0000084.html

<GENERAL.24-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Goodbye
DATE:    24-Aug-06 02:59:55
HOST:    sverige

quite so!! http://barnacle.freeshell.org/0000084.html

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Wanted - JUL MUST
DATE:    20-Dec-05 21:12:29
HOST:    sverige

or it's 'gluug', of swedish or scandanavian origins, spicey, warm,
alcoholic, stirred in a pot on the fire, possibly with fruit in it, for
festive greetings; and a *whole* lot different than eggnog; can be quite
tasty and warm on the insides actually.

<GENERAL.20-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Wanted - JUL MUST
DATE:    20-Dec-05 21:12:29
HOST:    sverige

or it's 'gluug', of swedish or scandanavian origins, spicey, warm,
alcoholic, stirred in a pot on the fire, possibly with fruit in it, for
festive greetings; and a *whole* lot different than eggnog; can be quite
tasty and warm on the insides actually.

...TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Building a computer to give away.
DATE:    22-Mar-06 18:17:45
HOST:    sverige

It hardly matters which OS is used if the old geezer is going to download
dozens of Acrobat Installers rather than the documents themselves :)

<GENERAL.22-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Building a computer to give away.
DATE:    22-Mar-06 18:17:45
HOST:    sverige

It hardly matters which OS is used if the old geezer is going to download
dozens of Acrobat Installers rather than the documents themselves :)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Sverige rebooted?
DATE:    23-Feb-06 23:15:02
HOST:    sverige

$ hostname;uptime
sverige
11:14PM  up  6:52,

<GENERAL.23-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Sverige rebooted?
DATE:    23-Feb-06 23:15:02
HOST:    sverige

$ hostname;uptime
sverige
11:14PM  up  6:52,

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. icemage's ARPA (everyone speak up)
DATE:    24-Jun-06 12:59:34
HOST:    sverige

IIRC we've done that twice already now.

<GENERAL.24-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. icemage's ARPA (everyone speak up)
DATE:    24-Jun-06 12:59:34
HOST:    sverige

IIRC we've done that twice already now.

TACKER:  icemage (frost)
SUBJECT: .. icemage's ARPA (everyone speak up)
DATE:    27-Jun-06 05:39:05
HOST:    sdf


My response to some of the posts so far...


       avoyager : IIRC we've done that twice already now.

Smj has told me to do it agian.


       sgrant : What _was_ the purpose of this message?

The purpose of this message is to have all of you help me ask for  my
"arpa" membership back. That is the only way smj will give it back to
me; which he has said to me in an e-mail.


       wonko : You can get ARPA by paying 36 dollars, like everyone else.

I've done that once. I also sent in that extra money for the bumper
sticker...which I never got.


       corster : frost got booted for acting like a kiddie and abusing
SDF, was given a second chance and blew that one.

I never got a second chance whit my arpa membership. Whit out warning it
was taken away from me; and I have been fighting tooth and nail for it
ever since.

Please, I beg of you all ask smj to give me my arpa membership back.

<GENERAL.27-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  icemage (frost)
SUBJECT: .. icemage's ARPA (everyone speak up)
DATE:    27-Jun-06 05:39:05
HOST:    sdf


My response to some of the posts so far...


       avoyager : IIRC we've done that twice already now.

Smj has told me to do it agian.


       sgrant : What _was_ the purpose of this message?

The purpose of this message is to have all of you help me ask for  my
"arpa" membership back. That is the only way smj will give it back to
me; which he has said to me in an e-mail.


       wonko : You can get ARPA by paying 36 dollars, like everyone else.

I've done that once. I also sent in that extra money for the bumper
sticker...which I never got.


       corster : frost got booted for acting like a kiddie and abusing
SDF, was given a second chance and blew that one.

I never got a second chance whit my arpa membership. Whit out warning it
was taken away from me; and I have been fighting tooth and nail for it
ever since.

Please, I beg of you all ask smj to give me my arpa membership back.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. icemage's ARPA (everyone speak up)
DATE:    30-Jun-06 21:04:08
HOST:    sverige

I was going to say something about how happy I'd be to see this
conversation take place on its own board that I could ignore ....

... and then I saw the GOODBYE board and .... reflected that it probably
would be even better over there.

<GENERAL.30-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. icemage's ARPA (everyone speak up)
DATE:    30-Jun-06 21:04:08
HOST:    sverige

I was going to say something about how happy I'd be to see this
conversation take place on its own board that I could ignore ....

... and then I saw the GOODBYE board and .... reflected that it probably
would be even better over there.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Nerve Damage?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 13:05:55
HOST:    sverige

Every now and then the dentist's novacaine needle catches a nerve, and it
is immediately noticeable; and completely absent after a few hours; and
that is a very tiny needle.

<GENERAL.24-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Nerve Damage?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 13:05:55
HOST:    sverige

Every now and then the dentist's novacaine needle catches a nerve, and it
is immediately noticeable; and completely absent after a few hours; and
that is a very tiny needle.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Happy sysadmin day !
DATE:    27-Jul-06 18:42:44
HOST:    sverige

On SDF, *every* day is 'smj day' ;-}


<GENERAL.27-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Happy sysadmin day !
DATE:    27-Jul-06 18:42:44
HOST:    sverige

On SDF, *every* day is 'smj day' ;-}


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Testing Home Broadband Connection Speed
DATE:    29-Apr-06 14:52:10
HOST:    sverige

also visualroute.org has a speed test

<GENERAL.29-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Testing Home Broadband Connection Speed
DATE:    29-Apr-06 14:52:10
HOST:    sverige

also visualroute.org has a speed test

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. google's business ...
DATE:    28-Jan-06 21:14:23
HOST:    sverige

and trading at 50x earnings

<GENERAL.28-Jan-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. google's business ...
DATE:    28-Jan-06 21:14:23
HOST:    sverige

and trading at 50x earnings

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    01-May-06 12:32:26
HOST:    sverige

Wealth in the United States has always been generated by the labor of
immigrants.

The only rule in America was, and is, to transfer wealth from the laborers
to the ruling elite.


<GENERAL.01-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    01-May-06 12:32:26
HOST:    sverige

Wealth in the United States has always been generated by the labor of
immigrants.

The only rule in America was, and is, to transfer wealth from the laborers
to the ruling elite.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    29-Apr-06 19:09:01
HOST:    sverige

It's just another fabricated distraction from the criminal activities
taking place in the halls of U.S. Government.

I'm going to work in solidarity. (solitude?) (solace?)


<GENERAL.29-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    29-Apr-06 19:09:01
HOST:    sverige

It's just another fabricated distraction from the criminal activities
taking place in the halls of U.S. Government.

I'm going to work in solidarity. (solitude?) (solace?)


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    30-Apr-06 17:35:35
HOST:    sverige

"Has anyone here ever known or even worked with a Mexican or Latin American
illegal immigrant?"

Absolutely. Great folks. Hard working, friendly, helpful, sincere, humble,
"salt of the earth" individuals.




<GENERAL.30-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    30-Apr-06 17:35:35
HOST:    sverige

"Has anyone here ever known or even worked with a Mexican or Latin American
illegal immigrant?"

Absolutely. Great folks. Hard working, friendly, helpful, sincere, humble,
"salt of the earth" individuals.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    30-Apr-06 21:05:38
HOST:    sverige

Stephen, it's not a blanket generalization. It's a description of my
personal experience. I understand without  dispute that your personal
experiences have been different.

<GENERAL.30-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SOLIDARITY or WORK Monday May 1st?
DATE:    30-Apr-06 21:05:38
HOST:    sverige

Stephen, it's not a blanket generalization. It's a description of my
personal experience. I understand without  dispute that your personal
experiences have been different.

.........TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. keeping dust out of computers?
DATE:    24-Dec-05 21:47:11
HOST:    sverige

I'm pretty sure that my Enermax is blowing air out of the case. It's about
4 yrs old by now.

<HELP.24-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. keeping dust out of computers?
DATE:    24-Dec-05 21:47:11
HOST:    sverige

I'm pretty sure that my Enermax is blowing air out of the case. It's about
4 yrs old by now.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Arpa membership question
DATE:    01-Aug-06 23:58:40
HOST:    sverige

"what does being an ARPA member provide?"

"being an ARPA member", like being a human,
is not about what it provides,
but is about what you provide.

<HELPDESK.01-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Arpa membership question
DATE:    01-Aug-06 23:58:40
HOST:    sverige

"what does being an ARPA member provide?"

"being an ARPA member", like being a human,
is not about what it provides,
but is about what you provide.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Setting up Port Tunneling
DATE:    02-Jun-06 11:47:40
HOST:    sverige

Hi Rick.

It works fine; it's all handled by the ssh client at hand and the sshd host
on sverige for Meta-ARPA membership level SDFers.

Thanks for supporting  SDF.

<HELPDESK.02-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Setting up Port Tunneling
DATE:    02-Jun-06 11:47:40
HOST:    sverige

Hi Rick.

It works fine; it's all handled by the ssh client at hand and the sshd host
on sverige for Meta-ARPA membership level SDFers.

Thanks for supporting  SDF.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. MetaARPA, ssh tunnels, and sshd_config on otaku
DATE:    01-Mar-06 22:23:38
HOST:    sverige

1. I'm not ready to vote yet.
2. I'm not ready to swallow a doubling of annual fee just yet.
3. The opened ports can be established to listen on any or all interfaces;
I don't know if they can be restricted to listen only on localhost, which
would mean that they could only be accessed from the SDF server.
4. I would appreciate, here or privately, a couple examples of how this
feature can be useful. I understand and use ssh local port forwarding, and
can imagine, maybe, a remote forward application, but lack real-world
experience or need.

5. Shouldn't all opening of listening ports be considered a server
application? a port forward is pretty much the same as a proxy. A sock is
tied up listening; a service runs full time to listen and respond; and
network traffic comes in, AND goes back out on SDF lines.

6. Should/Can the number of connections and/or bandwidth be throttled?

And, at risk fo repeating myself, I note that Meta-ARPA membership level is
"bought", not "earned". Trust is earned, not bought.

Thank you.

<HELPDESK.01-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. MetaARPA, ssh tunnels, and sshd_config on otaku
DATE:    01-Mar-06 22:23:38
HOST:    sverige

1. I'm not ready to vote yet.
2. I'm not ready to swallow a doubling of annual fee just yet.
3. The opened ports can be established to listen on any or all interfaces;
I don't know if they can be restricted to listen only on localhost, which
would mean that they could only be accessed from the SDF server.
4. I would appreciate, here or privately, a couple examples of how this
feature can be useful. I understand and use ssh local port forwarding, and
can imagine, maybe, a remote forward application, but lack real-world
experience or need.

5. Shouldn't all opening of listening ports be considered a server
application? a port forward is pretty much the same as a proxy. A sock is
tied up listening; a service runs full time to listen and respond; and
network traffic comes in, AND goes back out on SDF lines.

6. Should/Can the number of connections and/or bandwidth be throttled?

And, at risk fo repeating myself, I note that Meta-ARPA membership level is
"bought", not "earned". Trust is earned, not bought.

Thank you.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Accessing email from Cingular Cell Phone
DATE:    01-Mar-06 22:17:35
HOST:    sverige

Isn't Cingluar a network provider and not a phone manufacturer? Are you
sure that you don't configure to use their network access for outbound
email?

In any event, use of SDF outbound SMTP server requires a VPM
or VHOST membership level.


<HELPDESK.01-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Accessing email from Cingular Cell Phone
DATE:    01-Mar-06 22:17:35
HOST:    sverige

Isn't Cingluar a network provider and not a phone manufacturer? Are you
sure that you don't configure to use their network access for outbound
email?

In any event, use of SDF outbound SMTP server requires a VPM
or VHOST membership level.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Secure browser access with SDF and SSH
DATE:    01-May-06 12:05:48
HOST:    sverige

SSH tunnels provide a connection from one local port on your system to one
remote host:port

To browse through an SSH tunnel you need to browse to an  http or socks
proxy.

Doing this on SDF has been discussed this year. In the archives, start with
ARPA (that's a guess)  board or search for proxy.

<HELPDESK.01-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Secure browser access with SDF and SSH
DATE:    01-May-06 12:05:48
HOST:    sverige

SSH tunnels provide a connection from one local port on your system to one
remote host:port

To browse through an SSH tunnel you need to browse to an  http or socks
proxy.

Doing this on SDF has been discussed this year. In the archives, start with
ARPA (that's a guess)  board or search for proxy.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ssh authorized_keys
DATE:    18-Apr-06 01:08:12
HOST:    sverige

"(authorized_keys must be 700"

600 works also :)


<HELPDESK.18-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ssh authorized_keys
DATE:    18-Apr-06 01:08:12
HOST:    sverige

"(authorized_keys must be 700"

600 works also :)


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. problem with outgoing mail
DATE:    03-Nov-06 15:16:35
HOST:    sverige

By the way, the most common cause of mail gone missing is when the
recipient server (not user) applys filtering which accepts mail and then
deletes it without delivery. The second most common is probably user
filters which inadvertently catch something.

That's not to say anything about the experiences already stated here by SDF
users. I don't know what happened to those. I'm only mentioning the most
probable scenarios.

Another possibility might be that the recipient server accepted the mail,
and then attempted to bounce it back to SDF, and that the bounce was for
some reason rejected by SDF server or user filter.

The most least likely possibility is that the SDF mail server just "lost"
one message out of every few thousand; but in an nfs glitch maybe that
could happen, I don't knoow.

I would suggest however that a polite request of smj to check the log for
status report, giving him good data about time, recipient, and sender;
while realizing that you're asking him to do something for nothing when he
gets the chance; might be well received.

Now, I wonder if a membership level would be appropriate for receiving mail
logs relative to the user, grepped out during logrotate; together with http
logs.


<HELPDESK.03-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. problem with outgoing mail
DATE:    03-Nov-06 15:16:35
HOST:    sverige

By the way, the most common cause of mail gone missing is when the
recipient server (not user) applys filtering which accepts mail and then
deletes it without delivery. The second most common is probably user
filters which inadvertently catch something.

That's not to say anything about the experiences already stated here by SDF
users. I don't know what happened to those. I'm only mentioning the most
probable scenarios.

Another possibility might be that the recipient server accepted the mail,
and then attempted to bounce it back to SDF, and that the bounce was for
some reason rejected by SDF server or user filter.

The most least likely possibility is that the SDF mail server just "lost"
one message out of every few thousand; but in an nfs glitch maybe that
could happen, I don't knoow.

I would suggest however that a polite request of smj to check the log for
status report, giving him good data about time, recipient, and sender;
while realizing that you're asking him to do something for nothing when he
gets the chance; might be well received.

Now, I wonder if a membership level would be appropriate for receiving mail
logs relative to the user, grepped out during logrotate; together with http
logs.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. proxy authentication
DATE:    02-Oct-06 16:14:08
HOST:    sverige

I agree with, and do same as, wliao; with the exception of using something
lighter weight than squid and more suitable for just proxying without
cacheing.

<HELPDESK.02-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. proxy authentication
DATE:    02-Oct-06 16:14:08
HOST:    sverige

I agree with, and do same as, wliao; with the exception of using something
lighter weight than squid and more suitable for just proxying without
cacheing.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. proxy authentication
DATE:    02-Oct-06 17:54:08
HOST:    sverige

selever,

Don't think about "proxy tunnelling". Think of them separately.

Your remote server runs sshd; and it runs a proxy, separately. You connect
from home to its sshd, using your SSH client, and you create a "tunnel"
(local port forward) such as -L 127.0.0.1:5000:127.0.0.1:8000
(your_loopback:local_port_5000:remote_loopback:remote_port_8000)

Your remote proxy is listening on 127.0.0.1:8000 (port 8000, bound to it's
loopback/localhost interface)

For squid, that'd be
http_port 127.0.0.1:8000
http_access allow localhost
# and since you're only listening on localhost, you don't need the
# following, but it'd be safe and harmless to include, after the foregoing.
http_access deny all

If all you're doing is proxy, not cacheing, squid is the wrong tool, but
it'll work.

On your desktop client, set it up to use http proxy at 127.0.0.1:8000

An even better solution is probably to not use a separate proxy at all, but
use the SOCKS proxy built into sshd by creating a "dynamic" rather than
"local" tunnel (port forward).

To do this, replace the -L line with
-D 5000

and 127.0.0.1:5000 becomes your SOCKS proxy,  encrypted between your
desktop and your remote server; connections to a remote host being made
from your remote server, masking your desktop IP.

How's that?


<HELPDESK.02-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. proxy authentication
DATE:    02-Oct-06 17:54:08
HOST:    sverige

selever,

Don't think about "proxy tunnelling". Think of them separately.

Your remote server runs sshd; and it runs a proxy, separately. You connect
from home to its sshd, using your SSH client, and you create a "tunnel"
(local port forward) such as -L 127.0.0.1:5000:127.0.0.1:8000
(your_loopback:local_port_5000:remote_loopback:remote_port_8000)

Your remote proxy is listening on 127.0.0.1:8000 (port 8000, bound to it's
loopback/localhost interface)

For squid, that'd be
http_port 127.0.0.1:8000
http_access allow localhost
# and since you're only listening on localhost, you don't need the
# following, but it'd be safe and harmless to include, after the foregoing.
http_access deny all

If all you're doing is proxy, not cacheing, squid is the wrong tool, but
it'll work.

On your desktop client, set it up to use http proxy at 127.0.0.1:8000

An even better solution is probably to not use a separate proxy at all, but
use the SOCKS proxy built into sshd by creating a "dynamic" rather than
"local" tunnel (port forward).

To do this, replace the -L line with
-D 5000

and 127.0.0.1:5000 becomes your SOCKS proxy,  encrypted between your
desktop and your remote server; connections to a remote host being made
from your remote server, masking your desktop IP.

How's that?


TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. proxy authentication
DATE:    03-Oct-06 23:47:42
HOST:    norge

Thanks avoyager.

I am still a bit thick about this though.

1. Is the SOCKS proxy already running on sshd?  Which port is it on by
default?

2. I am getting denied access from squid, and I cannot figure out how I am
even getting that.

I am going to briefly explain my settings on both computers:

---------
Windows Computer:

       I've set up MS IE to accept a proxy for 127.0.0.1 on port 3128.

       With SSH Secure Shell:
               Display Name:                   doesn't matter
               Type:                           TCP
               Listen Port:                    3128
               Allow Local Connections Only    -checked-
               Destination Port:               3128

       With PuTTY: (via cmd prompt)
               putty -D 3128 -P 22 -ssh 192.168.0.100
                       -or-
               putty -L 3128 -P 22 -ssh 192.168.0.100

BSD computer:

       Squid is running on 3128.  Squid is running the way it came, so
       there is no auth_param added.  Am I wrong in assuming I do not
       need one for ssh?
----------

Does anything look blatantly wrong?  As you can see, I've been busy trying
just about every combination of anything I can come up with.

What I cannot figure out is, when I have no ssh connection to the BSD
computer (192.168.0.100), why do I still get "Access Denied" errors from
squid if the proxy is set up to be 127.0.0.1:3128?

Sorry for being so thick... this is driving me insane.  Google surprisingly
isn't much of a help on the issue.

Nic

<HELPDESK.03-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. proxy authentication
DATE:    03-Oct-06 23:47:42
HOST:    norge

Thanks avoyager.

I am still a bit thick about this though.

1. Is the SOCKS proxy already running on sshd?  Which port is it on by
default?

2. I am getting denied access from squid, and I cannot figure out how I am
even getting that.

I am going to briefly explain my settings on both computers:

---------
Windows Computer:

       I've set up MS IE to accept a proxy for 127.0.0.1 on port 3128.

       With SSH Secure Shell:
               Display Name:                   doesn't matter
               Type:                           TCP
               Listen Port:                    3128
               Allow Local Connections Only    -checked-
               Destination Port:               3128

       With PuTTY: (via cmd prompt)
               putty -D 3128 -P 22 -ssh 192.168.0.100
                       -or-
               putty -L 3128 -P 22 -ssh 192.168.0.100

BSD computer:

       Squid is running on 3128.  Squid is running the way it came, so
       there is no auth_param added.  Am I wrong in assuming I do not
       need one for ssh?
----------

Does anything look blatantly wrong?  As you can see, I've been busy trying
just about every combination of anything I can come up with.

What I cannot figure out is, when I have no ssh connection to the BSD
computer (192.168.0.100), why do I still get "Access Denied" errors from
squid if the proxy is set up to be 127.0.0.1:3128?

Sorry for being so thick... this is driving me insane.  Google surprisingly
isn't much of a help on the issue.

Nic

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. No Junk or Spam Email - Hooray
DATE:    03-Oct-06 12:55:19
HOST:    sverige

I've also started a tutorial on Greylisting.

<HELPDESK.03-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. No Junk or Spam Email - Hooray
DATE:    03-Oct-06 12:55:19
HOST:    sverige

I've also started a tutorial on Greylisting.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. yahoogroups says I'm bouncing...
DATE:    02-Sep-06 21:05:26
HOST:    sverige

To request that SDF not block email from yahoo groups, you place a post
into the REQUESTS board asking that SDF stop using the SpamCop DNSBL on
incoming mail, or to alter the way it is used, so that perhaps SpamCop
listed clients are greylisted rather than rejected with a permanently
rejected response code; or that envelope senders @returns.groups.yahoo.com
(optionally with yahoo assigned client IP requirement) be whitelisted; or
whatever.

The whitelist would be easy; the conditional greylisting may go better if
you dig up some sendmail admins to explain how to set it up.



<HELPDESK.02-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. yahoogroups says I'm bouncing...
DATE:    02-Sep-06 21:05:26
HOST:    sverige

To request that SDF not block email from yahoo groups, you place a post
into the REQUESTS board asking that SDF stop using the SpamCop DNSBL on
incoming mail, or to alter the way it is used, so that perhaps SpamCop
listed clients are greylisted rather than rejected with a permanently
rejected response code; or that envelope senders @returns.groups.yahoo.com
(optionally with yahoo assigned client IP requirement) be whitelisted; or
whatever.

The whitelist would be easy; the conditional greylisting may go better if
you dig up some sendmail admins to explain how to set it up.



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Does reading USENET reveal my e-mail address?
DATE:    03-Jun-06 19:15:58
HOST:    sverige

Correction. Pine only sends what you tell it is your real name and email
address. Furthermore, it can be configured to use innumerable different
"identities" of name/address combinations, and innumerable outboud servers.

<HELPDESK.03-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Does reading USENET reveal my e-mail address?
DATE:    03-Jun-06 19:15:58
HOST:    sverige

Correction. Pine only sends what you tell it is your real name and email
address. Furthermore, it can be configured to use innumerable different
"identities" of name/address combinations, and innumerable outboud servers.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. any debian folks here?
DATE:    14-Jul-06 22:09:06
HOST:    sverige

Thanks to user angelo (I think) in the archives for this tip:

"I would suggest trying to install using the Debian NetInstall CD at:
http://www.us.debian.org/CD/netinst/"

I went that route to install into a VirtualPC guest, and it went so
beautifully as to have been FUN.

Now to find a good walk-thru tutorial to complement my local copy of the
Rute text.


<HELPDESK.14-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. any debian folks here?
DATE:    14-Jul-06 22:09:06
HOST:    sverige

Thanks to user angelo (I think) in the archives for this tip:

"I would suggest trying to install using the Debian NetInstall CD at:
http://www.us.debian.org/CD/netinst/"

I went that route to install into a VirtualPC guest, and it went so
beautifully as to have been FUN.

Now to find a good walk-thru tutorial to complement my local copy of the
Rute text.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. .profile and new mail
DATE:    05-Nov-06 02:18:10
HOST:    sverige

man biff

<HELPDESK.05-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. .profile and new mail
DATE:    05-Nov-06 02:18:10
HOST:    sverige

man biff

TACKER:  dkp (David Patton)
SUBJECT: .. .profile and new mail
DATE:    06-Nov-06 19:45:51
HOST:    sdf

avoyager -
my understanding of biff is that you get notifications for your current
session, but not for new messages on login.
-dkp

<HELPDESK.06-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  dkp (David Patton)
SUBJECT: .. .profile and new mail
DATE:    06-Nov-06 19:45:51
HOST:    sdf

avoyager -
my understanding of biff is that you get notifications for your current
session, but not for new messages on login.
-dkp

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. help using the /mail quota
DATE:    05-Oct-06 13:06:33
HOST:    sverige

This may [ought to] be in a tutorial, if it's correct, but what I've
discerned is that:

The SDF mailhost which receives inbound mail, delivers it to your $MAIL
file (/mail/$USER) which resides, relative to your $HOME filespace, on a
remote NFS drive, "across the wire", and requires NFS resources to read or
write. Accordingly, moving very large files across NFS is a resource
burden, and a risk to file integrity, which is why it is not good to use
that space for long term storage. It is not a directory which accomodates
lots of files; it is your single inbound mail file. Its generous size is an
accomodation for special temporary needs in the form of lots of and/or very
large inbound email. It is by design a transfer location, not a storage
location.

Other directories and files in your $HOME directory are used by different
email reading programs. Some programs use single file mbox storage which is
used for $MAIL. Others use maildir/ storage with each email in a separate
file. Many can accomodate either by configuration.

In your $HOME directory,
$HOME/Mail/ is a maildir commonly used by mutt
$HOME/mbox is a mbox commonly used by mail to store mail after it's read
from $MAIL ...
$HOME/mbox is also a common inbox for Pine to which on startup appends
whatever it finds in $MAIL
$HOME/mail/ is a directory of mbox format "folders" used by Pine.

Trusting that others will correct my mistakes, and ....

--because you asked ;-}



<HELPDESK.05-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. help using the /mail quota
DATE:    05-Oct-06 13:06:33
HOST:    sverige

This may [ought to] be in a tutorial, if it's correct, but what I've
discerned is that:

The SDF mailhost which receives inbound mail, delivers it to your $MAIL
file (/mail/$USER) which resides, relative to your $HOME filespace, on a
remote NFS drive, "across the wire", and requires NFS resources to read or
write. Accordingly, moving very large files across NFS is a resource
burden, and a risk to file integrity, which is why it is not good to use
that space for long term storage. It is not a directory which accomodates
lots of files; it is your single inbound mail file. Its generous size is an
accomodation for special temporary needs in the form of lots of and/or very
large inbound email. It is by design a transfer location, not a storage
location.

Other directories and files in your $HOME directory are used by different
email reading programs. Some programs use single file mbox storage which is
used for $MAIL. Others use maildir/ storage with each email in a separate
file. Many can accomodate either by configuration.

In your $HOME directory,
$HOME/Mail/ is a maildir commonly used by mutt
$HOME/mbox is a mbox commonly used by mail to store mail after it's read
from $MAIL ...
$HOME/mbox is also a common inbox for Pine to which on startup appends
whatever it finds in $MAIL
$HOME/mail/ is a directory of mbox format "folders" used by Pine.

Trusting that others will correct my mistakes, and ....

--because you asked ;-}



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. help using the /mail quota
DATE:    06-Oct-06 03:47:46
HOST:    sverige

You're welcome :)

<HELPDESK.06-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. help using the /mail quota
DATE:    06-Oct-06 03:47:46
HOST:    sverige

You're welcome :)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Access to SDF HELP!!!
DATE:    07-Jun-06 19:58:15
HOST:    sverige

in the past, this behavior has been attributed to NFS issues; during this
most recent outage, I was active in an SDF hosted IRC client without
difficulties.

(and looking in IRC nets for #SDF-panic)

<HELPDESK.07-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Access to SDF HELP!!!
DATE:    07-Jun-06 19:58:15
HOST:    sverige

in the past, this behavior has been attributed to NFS issues; during this
most recent outage, I was active in an SDF hosted IRC client without
difficulties.

(and looking in IRC nets for #SDF-panic)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Access to SDF HELP!!!
DATE:    07-Jun-06 21:13:04
HOST:    sverige

$ stty erase '^h' echoe
$

works fine on sverige to /bin/stty


<HELPDESK.07-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Access to SDF HELP!!!
DATE:    07-Jun-06 21:13:04
HOST:    sverige

$ stty erase '^h' echoe
$

works fine on sverige to /bin/stty


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Access to SDF HELP!!!
DATE:    09-Jun-06 02:37:19
HOST:    sverige

Now would be a good time to presume that smj is on vacation, even out of
the country.

It's also a good opportunity to take a more laid back position with regard
to your expectations of others; think about some things beside your
particular desires.

You'll feel better, and probably be more productive :)

<HELPDESK.09-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Access to SDF HELP!!!
DATE:    09-Jun-06 02:37:19
HOST:    sverige

Now would be a good time to presume that smj is on vacation, even out of
the country.

It's also a good opportunity to take a more laid back position with regard
to your expectations of others; think about some things beside your
particular desires.

You'll feel better, and probably be more productive :)

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. spamcop (again)
DATE:    08-Sep-06 12:43:33
HOST:    sverige

Brian, I don't think it's within webmail's power to refuse outgoing
messages. Please re-examine the situation more carefully.

<HELPDESK.08-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. spamcop (again)
DATE:    08-Sep-06 12:43:33
HOST:    sverige

Brian, I don't think it's within webmail's power to refuse outgoing
messages. Please re-examine the situation more carefully.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Need help configuring SSH
DATE:    10-Jul-06 23:32:12
HOST:    sverige

authorized_keys needs to be 600

<HELPDESK.10-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Need help configuring SSH
DATE:    10-Jul-06 23:32:12
HOST:    sverige

authorized_keys needs to be 600

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Need help configuring SSH
DATE:    11-Jul-06 13:04:10
HOST:    sverige

1. Keys are not transferrable between hosts, so stop doing that.

2. On SDF, remove your .ssh/ and start over from the beginning, proceeding
carefully. Look for a tutorial on the SDF website.

My relevant permissions on SDF, which work, are :
$HOME 750
ssh/ 700
files in .ssh/ 600 except the .pub files (your resetting those was
non-attentive)


<HELPDESK.11-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Need help configuring SSH
DATE:    11-Jul-06 13:04:10
HOST:    sverige

1. Keys are not transferrable between hosts, so stop doing that.

2. On SDF, remove your .ssh/ and start over from the beginning, proceeding
carefully. Look for a tutorial on the SDF website.

My relevant permissions on SDF, which work, are :
$HOME 750
ssh/ 700
files in .ssh/ 600 except the .pub files (your resetting those was
non-attentive)


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Secure Tunnel/Connection for IMAP
DATE:    10-Mar-06 14:30:06
HOST:    sverige

I can't speak to mail.app, but Pine can be configured to view either
directories or INBOX. It would seem that INBOX is what is listening on :143
and :993 (in Pine terms) --  in case you prefer that to the directories.

ssh -L 9999:mail.freeshell.org:143 [email protected]
may work for you as an alternate form

Also, it doesn't have to be 'sdf'. You could  use any host which accepts
you; but not 'tty'.

The only thing you get by using SSL thru SSH is encryption between the
remote end of the SSH tunnel, and the final host. In this implementation,
that's not very far (sdf to mail). For longer routes, this combination can
be used to retrieve mail indirectly, so that neither end knows about the
other. The SSL authentication can be tricky, possibly impossible, to work
out however, when tunneled via SSH.

Enjoy ;-}

<HELPDESK.10-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Secure Tunnel/Connection for IMAP
DATE:    10-Mar-06 14:30:06
HOST:    sverige

I can't speak to mail.app, but Pine can be configured to view either
directories or INBOX. It would seem that INBOX is what is listening on :143
and :993 (in Pine terms) --  in case you prefer that to the directories.

ssh -L 9999:mail.freeshell.org:143 [email protected]
may work for you as an alternate form

Also, it doesn't have to be 'sdf'. You could  use any host which accepts
you; but not 'tty'.

The only thing you get by using SSL thru SSH is encryption between the
remote end of the SSH tunnel, and the final host. In this implementation,
that's not very far (sdf to mail). For longer routes, this combination can
be used to retrieve mail indirectly, so that neither end knows about the
other. The SSL authentication can be tricky, possibly impossible, to work
out however, when tunneled via SSH.

Enjoy ;-}

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Secure Tunnel/Connection for IMAP
DATE:    12-Mar-06 22:49:18
HOST:    sverige

Robert, I don't see any trouble for SDF beyond that which would be
otherwise attributable to polling the mail server. Stephen as stated that
mail checks should be no more frequent than 15 minute intervals. The making
of that request via a tunnel rather than direct, may actually be easier on
the overall system, since/if you're using the ssh connection already for
other purposes.

At any rate, I celebrate with you the joy of new experience. :)

-avo

<HELPDESK.12-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Secure Tunnel/Connection for IMAP
DATE:    12-Mar-06 22:49:18
HOST:    sverige

Robert, I don't see any trouble for SDF beyond that which would be
otherwise attributable to polling the mail server. Stephen as stated that
mail checks should be no more frequent than 15 minute intervals. The making
of that request via a tunnel rather than direct, may actually be easier on
the overall system, since/if you're using the ssh connection already for
other purposes.

At any rate, I celebrate with you the joy of new experience. :)

-avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    11-Nov-06 06:08:26
HOST:    sverige

Nic,

There is no handshaking in serial with only one data pin :)

Serial uses one pin connection for transmit, another for receive, and
others for hardware handshaking. You can use  XON/XOFF with a 2-3 pin
connection; but for high speeds and quick responses the hardware
handshaking across dedicated pins is preferred.

Search for "async" libraries.

and have a lot of frustrating fun :)

-
avo

<HELPDESK.11-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    11-Nov-06 06:08:26
HOST:    sverige

Nic,

There is no handshaking in serial with only one data pin :)

Serial uses one pin connection for transmit, another for receive, and
others for hardware handshaking. You can use  XON/XOFF with a 2-3 pin
connection; but for high speeds and quick responses the hardware
handshaking across dedicated pins is preferred.

Search for "async" libraries.

and have a lot of frustrating fun :)

-
avo

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    12-Nov-06 16:48:46
HOST:    norge

Thank you for the responce, Avoyager. I think I might be able to
use my existing set up if I only knew what my serial port was called.  I
looked online and thought it should be 'sio0' or something similar.
Perhaps psm0?

$ ls /dev

acd0 acpi ad0 ad0s1 ad0s1a ad0s1b
ad0s1c ad0s1d ad0s1e ad0s1f ata atkbd0 bpf0 bpsm0 console consolectl ctty
cuaa0 cuaia0 cuala0 devctl devstat fd fido geom.ctl io kbd0 klog kmem log
lpt0 lpt0.ctl mdctl mem net net1 net2 net3 network nfs4 null pci ppi0 psm0
ptyp0 ptyp1 ptyp2 random stderr stdin stdout sysmouse ttyd0 ttyid0 ttyld0
ttyp0 ttyp1 ttyp2 ttyv0 ttyv1 ttyv2 ttyv3 ttyv4 ttyv5 ttyv6 ttyv7 ttyv8
ttyv9 ttyva ttyvb ttyvc ttyvd ttyve ttyvf urandom usb usb0 usb1 xpt0 zero


There is a sio0 listed in 'dmesg', but it's not listed in /dev.

sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on
acpi0
sio0: type 16550A


So I am a little confused.  Does anyone have an answer?

Nic

<HELPDESK.12-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    12-Nov-06 16:48:46
HOST:    norge

Thank you for the responce, Avoyager. I think I might be able to
use my existing set up if I only knew what my serial port was called.  I
looked online and thought it should be 'sio0' or something similar.
Perhaps psm0?

$ ls /dev

acd0 acpi ad0 ad0s1 ad0s1a ad0s1b
ad0s1c ad0s1d ad0s1e ad0s1f ata atkbd0 bpf0 bpsm0 console consolectl ctty
cuaa0 cuaia0 cuala0 devctl devstat fd fido geom.ctl io kbd0 klog kmem log
lpt0 lpt0.ctl mdctl mem net net1 net2 net3 network nfs4 null pci ppi0 psm0
ptyp0 ptyp1 ptyp2 random stderr stdin stdout sysmouse ttyd0 ttyid0 ttyld0
ttyp0 ttyp1 ttyp2 ttyv0 ttyv1 ttyv2 ttyv3 ttyv4 ttyv5 ttyv6 ttyv7 ttyv8
ttyv9 ttyva ttyvb ttyvc ttyvd ttyve ttyvf urandom usb usb0 usb1 xpt0 zero


There is a sio0 listed in 'dmesg', but it's not listed in /dev.

sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on
acpi0
sio0: type 16550A


So I am a little confused.  Does anyone have an answer?

Nic

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    12-Nov-06 23:07:59
HOST:    sverige

? you may need to create a device, with a driver ?

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Serial-HOWTO.html may be helpful


<HELPDESK.12-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    12-Nov-06 23:07:59
HOST:    sverige

? you may need to create a device, with a driver ?

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Serial-HOWTO.html may be helpful


TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    13-Nov-06 03:36:13
HOST:    norge

Thank you again Avoyager.

I think my serial port is actually ttyd0.

I admit that I am now a bit confused about the serial port.  There seems
to be a constant 10 volts running through.  I measured this with a voltmeter.

I tried to turn off all the pins with a quick program I wrote, but the 10V
remained.

So my question should be:  Is it not a trivial task to turn a serial port
pin on and off at a user command?  I realize now that the serial port
streams data unlike the parallel port, but I thought it should still be an
easy task of switching out a few line of code.

Nic

<HELPDESK.13-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  selever (Nic Reveles)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    13-Nov-06 03:36:13
HOST:    norge

Thank you again Avoyager.

I think my serial port is actually ttyd0.

I admit that I am now a bit confused about the serial port.  There seems
to be a constant 10 volts running through.  I measured this with a voltmeter.

I tried to turn off all the pins with a quick program I wrote, but the 10V
remained.

So my question should be:  Is it not a trivial task to turn a serial port
pin on and off at a user command?  I realize now that the serial port
streams data unlike the parallel port, but I thought it should still be an
easy task of switching out a few line of code.

Nic

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    13-Nov-06 21:17:45
HOST:    sverige

Nic, you're in way over my head. The only way I ever semi-directly altered
the line on a pin was via jumpers on a breakout box.


<HELPDESK.13-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. PPI for serial port hand shakes?
DATE:    13-Nov-06 21:17:45
HOST:    sverige

Nic, you're in way over my head. The only way I ever semi-directly altered
the line on a pin was via jumpers on a breakout box.


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. RSS Reader
DATE:    13-Feb-06 23:43:21
HOST:    sverige

snownews is one option which is installed here

<HELPDESK.13-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. RSS Reader
DATE:    13-Feb-06 23:43:21
HOST:    sverige

snownews is one option which is installed here

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SSH Public Key Access
DATE:    14-Jun-06 01:43:15
HOST:    sverige

and that .ssh/ is chmod 700 and authorized_keys is 600

and that the client is directed to use keys and to not use passwords

<HELPDESK.14-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SSH Public Key Access
DATE:    14-Jun-06 01:43:15
HOST:    sverige

and that .ssh/ is chmod 700 and authorized_keys is 600

and that the client is directed to use keys and to not use passwords

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    14-Sep-06 22:38:56
HOST:    sverige

In addition to the other two good advices, and despite the fact that Cat5
isn't really "gigantic" :), I wish to add ....

It matters how the first router uses IPs within the apartment. It most
probably has a dynamic external IP and you never have to know what that is
unless you want to trace back to yourself. On the internal side, it
certainly has a static IP, probably in the 192.168. range. Additionally,
but certainly optionally, it optionally allocates dynamic IPs to those who
connect to it. You need to discover just what it does by asking the person
who set it up.

If it uses, more specifically, offers, DHCP, over a limted range of the
192.168.x. block, then you have the option of using a static or dynamic IP
configuration on your computers.

If you're familiar and comfortable with dynamic, you may as well use it.

Otherwise, you set up your computers to use static IPs in the same
192.168.x. block which do not fall in the range exported by the primary
router's DHCP.

In any event, you plug the wire from the apartment router into a regular
LAN port in your switch, not the special WAN port, and ignore or disable
the routing function all together. Configure your switch's LAN IP to be in
the same 192.168.x block, again outside of the DHCP allocated range, with a
netmask of 255.255.255.0

Now, that said, I don't know for certain that the apartment router will
accept connections from static IPs while it is configured to offer DHCP.

Enjoy. Please let me/us know if I got something wrong here :)

--avo

<HELPDESK.14-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    14-Sep-06 22:38:56
HOST:    sverige

In addition to the other two good advices, and despite the fact that Cat5
isn't really "gigantic" :), I wish to add ....

It matters how the first router uses IPs within the apartment. It most
probably has a dynamic external IP and you never have to know what that is
unless you want to trace back to yourself. On the internal side, it
certainly has a static IP, probably in the 192.168. range. Additionally,
but certainly optionally, it optionally allocates dynamic IPs to those who
connect to it. You need to discover just what it does by asking the person
who set it up.

If it uses, more specifically, offers, DHCP, over a limted range of the
192.168.x. block, then you have the option of using a static or dynamic IP
configuration on your computers.

If you're familiar and comfortable with dynamic, you may as well use it.

Otherwise, you set up your computers to use static IPs in the same
192.168.x. block which do not fall in the range exported by the primary
router's DHCP.

In any event, you plug the wire from the apartment router into a regular
LAN port in your switch, not the special WAN port, and ignore or disable
the routing function all together. Configure your switch's LAN IP to be in
the same 192.168.x block, again outside of the DHCP allocated range, with a
netmask of 255.255.255.0

Now, that said, I don't know for certain that the apartment router will
accept connections from static IPs while it is configured to offer DHCP.

Enjoy. Please let me/us know if I got something wrong here :)

--avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    15-Sep-06 03:43:21
HOST:    sverige

and THEN after all that, you'll have to set up routing, and interface, on
your local systems.

Default route (gateway) being the internal IP of the apartment router, not
the switch in your room.

Since all computers, switches and routers in the apartment are in the same
/24 netmask 255.255.255.0 for 192.168.x subnet then your interface setup
(ifconfig or duzGUIthingy) will use that netmask with your IP and your
system will route all IPs in that subnet thru that interface, to the switch
in the room, which will find the correct port to the apartment router.

Don't forget to carfully consider how you share directories and whether you
run NetBIOS over your TCP/IP interface.


<HELPDESK.15-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    15-Sep-06 03:43:21
HOST:    sverige

and THEN after all that, you'll have to set up routing, and interface, on
your local systems.

Default route (gateway) being the internal IP of the apartment router, not
the switch in your room.

Since all computers, switches and routers in the apartment are in the same
/24 netmask 255.255.255.0 for 192.168.x subnet then your interface setup
(ifconfig or duzGUIthingy) will use that netmask with your IP and your
system will route all IPs in that subnet thru that interface, to the switch
in the room, which will find the correct port to the apartment router.

Don't forget to carfully consider how you share directories and whether you
run NetBIOS over your TCP/IP interface.


TACKER:  shinji (Robert Pendell)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    15-Sep-06 12:21:24
HOST:    sverige

@avoyager
If you did option 2 then setting up the gateway won't be required.  The
switch will automatically forward the router ip as the gateway to the
machine.  Or at least it did when I setup those type of setups with some
windows boxes.

<HELPDESK.15-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  shinji (Robert Pendell)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    15-Sep-06 12:21:24
HOST:    sverige

@avoyager
If you did option 2 then setting up the gateway won't be required.  The
switch will automatically forward the router ip as the gateway to the
machine.  Or at least it did when I setup those type of setups with some
windows boxes.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    15-Sep-06 14:37:39
HOST:    sverige

robert: Thanks. We'll see.

clauandr: Also, if your router doesn't support port forwarding; see if it
has a DMZ feature which would possibly forward all inbound connections to
all ports on toward your computer.

In any event, I urge extreme and redundant caution when you step out from
behind, or bore through, the protection of The NAT :)


<HELPDESK.15-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. basic router question
DATE:    15-Sep-06 14:37:39
HOST:    sverige

robert: Thanks. We'll see.

clauandr: Also, if your router doesn't support port forwarding; see if it
has a DMZ feature which would possibly forward all inbound connections to
all ports on toward your computer.

In any event, I urge extreme and redundant caution when you step out from
behind, or bore through, the protection of The NAT :)


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. I'd like to make my computer a server.
DATE:    17-Aug-06 12:31:55
HOST:    sverige

If you don't have control over the firewall, you'll have a hard time
serving the files yourself; if you do have control, you can open a hole to
a port on your box.

You can then maybe use a dynamic IP such as you.mdns.org offered at SDF's
MetaARPA level, or subscribe to another. And run some kind of server on
your box which your friends could connect to.

If that doesn't appeal, you're next option is probably to move the files
onto a third-party medium and distribute them from there. It could be a
stack of DVD data discs or a Gmail account or an inexpensive VPS or any
number of other options.

Some of these answers will clarify in light of knowing the volume of data
you wish to transfer, and the number and location (and relevant resources)
of the recipients.

We're here to help.

<HELPDESK.17-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. I'd like to make my computer a server.
DATE:    17-Aug-06 12:31:55
HOST:    sverige

If you don't have control over the firewall, you'll have a hard time
serving the files yourself; if you do have control, you can open a hole to
a port on your box.

You can then maybe use a dynamic IP such as you.mdns.org offered at SDF's
MetaARPA level, or subscribe to another. And run some kind of server on
your box which your friends could connect to.

If that doesn't appeal, you're next option is probably to move the files
onto a third-party medium and distribute them from there. It could be a
stack of DVD data discs or a Gmail account or an inexpensive VPS or any
number of other options.

Some of these answers will clarify in light of knowing the volume of data
you wish to transfer, and the number and location (and relevant resources)
of the recipients.

We're here to help.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. vpm help
DATE:    17-Jul-06 21:00:52
HOST:    sverige

maybe just run mkvpm again.
if you look in /vmail/.pw you should see your alias.

<HELPDESK.17-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. vpm help
DATE:    17-Jul-06 21:00:52
HOST:    sverige

maybe just run mkvpm again.
if you look in /vmail/.pw you should see your alias.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. vpm help
DATE:    18-Jul-06 18:32:16
HOST:    sverige

next idea ... rename the .pw file for reference, and start all over.

<HELPDESK.18-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. vpm help
DATE:    18-Jul-06 18:32:16
HOST:    sverige

next idea ... rename the .pw file for reference, and start all over.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. vpm help
DATE:    18-Jul-06 23:00:06
HOST:    sdf

ok....
make sure that there are no .forward or .alias files in your $HOME which
would be interfering, and then send mail to the aliases, and to their
redirect targets, and see what is learned.

<HELPDESK.18-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. vpm help
DATE:    18-Jul-06 23:00:06
HOST:    sdf

ok....
make sure that there are no .forward or .alias files in your $HOME which
would be interfering, and then send mail to the aliases, and to their
redirect targets, and see what is learned.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Yet Another Mkvpm Issue (YAMI)
DATE:    18-Oct-06 12:00:32
HOST:    sverige

Curtis,

That's an interesting use of the term "phished".

Look in ~/vmail/.pw
You should see a line for smtpauth= and a line for each alias.
Run 'mkvpm' which will display Your VPM Configuration.
See how they're the same?

Make a backup of ~/vmail/.pw and edit it to suit, i.e. remove a wildcard
line if that's how it's done (I've never used it).

NOPE.! That's not how it's done at all; though I'll leave it here for you.

Check for the presence of ~/vmail/.wildcard which may signal the
wildcarding operation. Remove it if unwanted.

For UNIX training event ...
less `which mkvpm`

Hopefully this was more helpful than confusing.

<HELPDESK.18-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Yet Another Mkvpm Issue (YAMI)
DATE:    18-Oct-06 12:00:32
HOST:    sverige

Curtis,

That's an interesting use of the term "phished".

Look in ~/vmail/.pw
You should see a line for smtpauth= and a line for each alias.
Run 'mkvpm' which will display Your VPM Configuration.
See how they're the same?

Make a backup of ~/vmail/.pw and edit it to suit, i.e. remove a wildcard
line if that's how it's done (I've never used it).

NOPE.! That's not how it's done at all; though I'll leave it here for you.

Check for the presence of ~/vmail/.wildcard which may signal the
wildcarding operation. Remove it if unwanted.

For UNIX training event ...
less `which mkvpm`

Hopefully this was more helpful than confusing.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. file system full error...
DATE:    18-Sep-06 04:03:12
HOST:    sverige

'df' gives clue also

Filesystem   512-blocks     Used     Avail Capacity  Mounted on
ol1:/arpa/gm   70010036 66509412       120    99%    /arpa/gm


<HELPDESK.18-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. file system full error...
DATE:    18-Sep-06 04:03:12
HOST:    sverige

'df' gives clue also

Filesystem   512-blocks     Used     Avail Capacity  Mounted on
ol1:/arpa/gm   70010036 66509412       120    99%    /arpa/gm


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Using .htaccess files
DATE:    19-Jan-06 19:17:32
HOST:    sverige

Last time I set this up, the .htpasswd file had to be 644 in the user web
root.

-- in case other locations don't work for you.

<HELPDESK.19-Jan-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Using .htaccess files
DATE:    19-Jan-06 19:17:32
HOST:    sverige

Last time I set this up, the .htpasswd file had to be 644 in the user web
root.

-- in case other locations don't work for you.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Backspace
DATE:    20-Feb-06 18:43:05
HOST:    sverige

I'm thinking that the issue is in/with  my terminal app., at least to some
extent, since different ones behave differently ;-)

<HELPDESK.20-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Backspace
DATE:    20-Feb-06 18:43:05
HOST:    sverige

I'm thinking that the issue is in/with  my terminal app., at least to some
extent, since different ones behave differently ;-)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Backspace
DATE:    21-Feb-06 22:54:19
HOST:    sverige

I solved my problem with this. I had "backspace sends delete" checked in a
local instance of MindTerm 2.4.2 with vt100 TERM. Unchecking that option
solved the problem nicely. (while running in SCREEN)

Thanks for your tips and clues. They did and do help to freshen the
thinking.

<HELPDESK.21-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Backspace
DATE:    21-Feb-06 22:54:19
HOST:    sverige

I solved my problem with this. I had "backspace sends delete" checked in a
local instance of MindTerm 2.4.2 with vt100 TERM. Unchecking that option
solved the problem nicely. (while running in SCREEN)

Thanks for your tips and clues. They did and do help to freshen the
thinking.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. spam sent to inexistent user@domain and greylist
DATE:    20-Oct-06 13:43:03
HOST:    sverige

Maybe, .... the domain is registered by you, hosted (DNS) by SDF, with MX
records indicating mail should come to SDF, .... , and .... the mail needs
a place to go, eh?

If so, try modifying  the MX records in your DNS in order to prevent mail
to that domain from being sent to SDF.

<HELPDESK.20-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. spam sent to inexistent user@domain and greylist
DATE:    20-Oct-06 13:43:03
HOST:    sverige

Maybe, .... the domain is registered by you, hosted (DNS) by SDF, with MX
records indicating mail should come to SDF, .... , and .... the mail needs
a place to go, eh?

If so, try modifying  the MX records in your DNS in order to prevent mail
to that domain from being sent to SDF.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 20:51:46
HOST:    sverige

One question arises of what happens to listings in 'greylist -g' ?

At some point in time they're going to just expire; and I don't know, and
haven't measured, when.


<HELPDESK.21-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 20:51:46
HOST:    sverige

One question arises of what happens to listings in 'greylist -g' ?

At some point in time they're going to just expire; and I don't know, and
haven't measured, when.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 21:24:55
HOST:    sverige

I don't know really. The theory behind greylisting is that spamware will
not make a second attempt, so the greylisted system (tuple) will have to
expire sometime, hopefully not before a resend is actually attempted.

I have seen some mail servers not make a second resend attempt for several
days, sad to say.

Also, the greylist record may be removed after the mail has been resent and
accepted; which wouldn't be good for a conversation because their second
message would also be held up, until an auto-whitelisting (or manual
whitelisting) took effect.

<HELPDESK.21-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 21:24:55
HOST:    sverige

I don't know really. The theory behind greylisting is that spamware will
not make a second attempt, so the greylisted system (tuple) will have to
expire sometime, hopefully not before a resend is actually attempted.

I have seen some mail servers not make a second resend attempt for several
days, sad to say.

Also, the greylist record may be removed after the mail has been resent and
accepted; which wouldn't be good for a conversation because their second
message would also be held up, until an auto-whitelisting (or manual
whitelisting) took effect.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 21:46:35
HOST:    sverige

Is the sender in the greylist -wv ? whitelist?

That'd be a reasonable place for the listing to go after the greylist -g
waitlist.

From there it'd expire after some interval. (and conversations would be
easier).

I have a test started now.


<HELPDESK.21-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 21:46:35
HOST:    sverige

Is the sender in the greylist -wv ? whitelist?

That'd be a reasonable place for the listing to go after the greylist -g
waitlist.

From there it'd expire after some interval. (and conversations would be
easier).

I have a test started now.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 22:03:29
HOST:    sverige

test cancelled  because nothing is appearing in 'greylist -gv' prior to
subsequent delivery success, or in 'greylist -wv' after. Those tools may
not be working properly at present.

<HELPDESK.21-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    21-Nov-06 22:03:29
HOST:    sverige

test cancelled  because nothing is appearing in 'greylist -gv' prior to
subsequent delivery success, or in 'greylist -wv' after. Those tools may
not be working properly at present.

TACKER:  mrbigjas (James Andrews)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    22-Nov-06 03:50:38
HOST:    sverige

well anyway, thanks, avoyager.  i still think that once the manual
whitelists (or automatic whitelists based on sent mail or something) are
implemented, it's a pretty good system for the moment--until the spammers
catch up to it, at which folks will have to figure out something else...


<HELPDESK.22-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mrbigjas (James Andrews)
SUBJECT: .. greylist help
DATE:    22-Nov-06 03:50:38
HOST:    sverige

well anyway, thanks, avoyager.  i still think that once the manual
whitelists (or automatic whitelists based on sent mail or something) are
implemented, it's a pretty good system for the moment--until the spammers
catch up to it, at which folks will have to figure out something else...


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Removing Misnamed Files
DATE:    22-May-06 12:38:54
HOST:    sverige

or ...

rm "enclose the filename in quotes"

<HELPDESK.22-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Removing Misnamed Files
DATE:    22-May-06 12:38:54
HOST:    sverige

or ...

rm "enclose the filename in quotes"

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Using old DNS record for a website
DATE:    22-Nov-06 16:42:45
HOST:    sverige

I think the [/etc/]HOSTS file is supposed to do this well, once you get
your resolver to look at it before going to DNS.


<HELPDESK.22-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Using old DNS record for a website
DATE:    22-Nov-06 16:42:45
HOST:    sverige

I think the [/etc/]HOSTS file is supposed to do this well, once you get
your resolver to look at it before going to DNS.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. keeping dust out of computers?
DATE:    24-Dec-05 21:47:11
HOST:    sverige

I'm pretty sure that my Enermax is blowing air out of the case. It's about
4 yrs old by now.

<HELPDESK.24-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. keeping dust out of computers?
DATE:    24-Dec-05 21:47:11
HOST:    sverige

I'm pretty sure that my Enermax is blowing air out of the case. It's about
4 yrs old by now.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 13:01:01
HOST:    sverige

search the 2006 bboard archives for 'entropy'. We have handled this to some
degree, if not conclusively.

<HELPDESK.24-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 13:01:01
HOST:    sverige

search the 2006 bboard archives for 'entropy'. We have handled this to some
degree, if not conclusively.

TACKER:  mariok (Mario Koppensteiner)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 20:53:54
HOST:    sdf

Hello avoyager


I have searched for the Tread in the Archiv but I haven't found it.

Which Tread do you mean exactly? (Thread owner, Date of post etc...)


Thanks and best regards.

mariok

<HELPDESK.24-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mariok (Mario Koppensteiner)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 20:53:54
HOST:    sdf

Hello avoyager


I have searched for the Tread in the Archiv but I haven't found it.

Which Tread do you mean exactly? (Thread owner, Date of post etc...)


Thanks and best regards.

mariok

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 21:49:49
HOST:    sverige

Alas, I cannot find it either.

IIRC (which obviously doesn't always work:), I got gpg --gen-key to work on
SDF (sverige/Meta-ARPA) after letting it run a very long time; like ....
put it in the background, and do something else for a few hours.

I think it seemed a matter of process priority, not lack of entropy or
entropy generating activity, but dunno for sure.

Just try it :) overnight perhaps.

<HELPDESK.24-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    24-Jun-06 21:49:49
HOST:    sverige

Alas, I cannot find it either.

IIRC (which obviously doesn't always work:), I got gpg --gen-key to work on
SDF (sverige/Meta-ARPA) after letting it run a very long time; like ....
put it in the background, and do something else for a few hours.

I think it seemed a matter of process priority, not lack of entropy or
entropy generating activity, but dunno for sure.

Just try it :) overnight perhaps.

TACKER:  mariok (Mario Koppensteiner)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 11:08:16
HOST:    ukato

Hello avoyager


I will try this.


But which file does gpg need to get random data (for example by moving the
mouse or typing on the keyboard or by using the soundcard).

Perhaps he needs the /proc/interrupts file, but which file is used for
this on NetBSD?


Thanks and best regards

mariok

<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mariok (Mario Koppensteiner)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 11:08:16
HOST:    ukato

Hello avoyager


I will try this.


But which file does gpg need to get random data (for example by moving the
mouse or typing on the keyboard or by using the soundcard).

Perhaps he needs the /proc/interrupts file, but which file is used for
this on NetBSD?


Thanks and best regards

mariok

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 14:10:47
HOST:    sverige

Mario,

It seems to me that moving your mouse or keyboard will have no effect
whatsoever since it's a remote system; and that all it needs is cpu
activity or memory use or buss traffic or something of which it already has
ample.

I'll start one up and see what happens.

<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 14:10:47
HOST:    sverige

Mario,

It seems to me that moving your mouse or keyboard will have no effect
whatsoever since it's a remote system; and that all it needs is cpu
activity or memory use or buss traffic or something of which it already has
ample.

I'll start one up and see what happens.

TACKER:  mariok (Mario Koppensteiner)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 14:44:06
HOST:    norge

Hello avoyager


I know that. Moving my mouse or typing on my keyboard has no effect.

If this is what gpg needs, than somebody must drive to norge or whatever
host and connect there a keyboard (and I'm sure there isn't one, because
the sdf-machines are managed remote) and type on it.

I has started one gpg-process too.
I'll see what hapen... .

You say it should finish (running over a night or some hours)?
If so, gpg gets the random data (which is needed to complete the
key-generation), so gpg must have a file/device from that he could get the
random data.


Do you use gpg within mutt?
I'd like to do that, and so I hope I can found here (in bboard) some
Threads that handle that too.

Thanks a lot.



Best regards

mariok

<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mariok (Mario Koppensteiner)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 14:44:06
HOST:    norge

Hello avoyager


I know that. Moving my mouse or typing on my keyboard has no effect.

If this is what gpg needs, than somebody must drive to norge or whatever
host and connect there a keyboard (and I'm sure there isn't one, because
the sdf-machines are managed remote) and type on it.

I has started one gpg-process too.
I'll see what hapen... .

You say it should finish (running over a night or some hours)?
If so, gpg gets the random data (which is needed to complete the
key-generation), so gpg must have a file/device from that he could get the
random data.


Do you use gpg within mutt?
I'd like to do that, and so I hope I can found here (in bboard) some
Threads that handle that too.

Thanks a lot.



Best regards

mariok

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 17:18:27
HOST:    sverige

Well it's running three hours now, one whole disappointing World Cup match,
without completing. IIRC (same caveats :) I tried in the past doing things
to help it advance, to no avail. All other systems I've tried complete the
process within a minute or two at the outside.

We both now test whether it completes here at all.

I trust the next match will be better played and more entertaining.

<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 17:18:27
HOST:    sverige

Well it's running three hours now, one whole disappointing World Cup match,
without completing. IIRC (same caveats :) I tried in the past doing things
to help it advance, to no avail. All other systems I've tried complete the
process within a minute or two at the outside.

We both now test whether it completes here at all.

I trust the next match will be better played and more entertaining.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 17:28:30
HOST:    sverige

There's a GPG thread in the MAIL archive .... MAIL.28-Apr-06


<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 17:28:30
HOST:    sverige

There's a GPG thread in the MAIL archive .... MAIL.28-Apr-06


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 20:31:07
HOST:    sverige

My only work-around at this time is patience. After something less than 6
hours I did get a key pair.

<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 20:31:07
HOST:    sverige

My only work-around at this time is patience. After something less than 6
hours I did get a key pair.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 21:28:44
HOST:    sverige

Thanks, Robert.

I affirm that tar xf .... in /temp/... created enough entropy  to bring the
keymaking to a rapid conclusion. I didn't even have to start configure :)

Well done!

<HELPDESK.25-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Creating a gpg-Key. How can I get a lot of random bytes?
DATE:    25-Jun-06 21:28:44
HOST:    sverige

Thanks, Robert.

I affirm that tar xf .... in /temp/... created enough entropy  to bring the
keymaking to a rapid conclusion. I didn't even have to start configure :)

Well done!

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Lost Email
DATE:    25-Oct-06 16:57:05
HOST:    sverige

David,

"I sent these emails from citigroup.com ..."

OK.

"so I am thinking that their server probably is working correctly."

No. The conclusion does not follow. In fact, the evidence (that one mail
was not yet resent) is that their mail servers are NOT working correctly,
and are still holding one of your mails in their queue.

On the other hand, there are a great many things which can, and do, go
wrong with email. Greylisting is not one of them. It does not lose or
discard mail. It is just one of several already noted legitimate and common
reasons why receiving servers tell sending servers to "try again later".

But if you think that wearing a hat will keep the volcano from erupting, go
for it.


<HELPDESK.25-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Lost Email
DATE:    25-Oct-06 16:57:05
HOST:    sverige

David,

"I sent these emails from citigroup.com ..."

OK.

"so I am thinking that their server probably is working correctly."

No. The conclusion does not follow. In fact, the evidence (that one mail
was not yet resent) is that their mail servers are NOT working correctly,
and are still holding one of your mails in their queue.

On the other hand, there are a great many things which can, and do, go
wrong with email. Greylisting is not one of them. It does not lose or
discard mail. It is just one of several already noted legitimate and common
reasons why receiving servers tell sending servers to "try again later".

But if you think that wearing a hat will keep the volcano from erupting, go
for it.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. can't get script working
DATE:    25-Sep-06 12:50:16
HOST:    sverige

Is your script attempting to open privileged port or otherwise do something
for which its user or you are unauthorized?

<HELPDESK.25-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. can't get script working
DATE:    25-Sep-06 12:50:16
HOST:    sverige

Is your script attempting to open privileged port or otherwise do something
for which its user or you are unauthorized?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. CTRL-H in certain programs
DATE:    28-Apr-06 12:34:17
HOST:    sverige

also, if your term program has settings such as "backspace sends delete" or
"delete sends backspace" try toggling them.

<HELPDESK.28-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. CTRL-H in certain programs
DATE:    28-Apr-06 12:34:17
HOST:    sverige

also, if your term program has settings such as "backspace sends delete" or
"delete sends backspace" try toggling them.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ssh timeout
DATE:    28-Apr-06 12:41:00
HOST:    sverige

For flakey connections, I disable the term's keepalive function, because it
does/could/might terminate the connection if it looks for a pong back, at
the application level.

After that, your tcp configuration controls when is timeout for its
connections, at the transport level.

<HELPDESK.28-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. ssh timeout
DATE:    28-Apr-06 12:41:00
HOST:    sverige

For flakey connections, I disable the term's keepalive function, because it
does/could/might terminate the connection if it looks for a pong back, at
the application level.

After that, your tcp configuration controls when is timeout for its
connections, at the transport level.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. anyone else getting spam bounces when sending to SDF ?
DATE:    02-Oct-06 01:39:30
HOST:    sverige

Hi folks. Be sure to read the recent threads on Greylisting in MAIL and
REQUESTS.

In short, it works like this. All incoming mail delivery attempts are told
to "try again later; can't take delivery now". That in itself is not new;
and all email systems know to expect those responses any time from any
place.

Spam  mail generally doesn't bother with a second delivery attempt. That's
the positive benefit of Greylisting.

Legitimate mail will try again, after a delay determined by them, they will
(or should) attempt delivery again. When they do (if it is after the
period set by SDF, between 30 and 120 minutes when I measured it) SDF will
whitelist them so that next time they won't be delayed.

Note that it is not just the sender however. The greylisting works with
what SMJ refers to as "tuples" which are a single record combination of
sender_IP(SMTP client), envelope_from(MAIL FROM:), and envelope_to(RCPT
TO:).

Note also that the whitelisting may expire if not used again in some period
of time.

Also, the SDF implementation of Greylisting is new, and a work in progress.
Accordingly, .... "don't panic".

<HELPDESK.02-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. anyone else getting spam bounces when sending to SDF ?
DATE:    02-Oct-06 01:39:30
HOST:    sverige

Hi folks. Be sure to read the recent threads on Greylisting in MAIL and
REQUESTS.

In short, it works like this. All incoming mail delivery attempts are told
to "try again later; can't take delivery now". That in itself is not new;
and all email systems know to expect those responses any time from any
place.

Spam  mail generally doesn't bother with a second delivery attempt. That's
the positive benefit of Greylisting.

Legitimate mail will try again, after a delay determined by them, they will
(or should) attempt delivery again. When they do (if it is after the
period set by SDF, between 30 and 120 minutes when I measured it) SDF will
whitelist them so that next time they won't be delayed.

Note that it is not just the sender however. The greylisting works with
what SMJ refers to as "tuples" which are a single record combination of
sender_IP(SMTP client), envelope_from(MAIL FROM:), and envelope_to(RCPT
TO:).

Note also that the whitelisting may expire if not used again in some period
of time.

Also, the SDF implementation of Greylisting is new, and a work in progress.
Accordingly, .... "don't panic".

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What's avalable on SDF for POP3 accounts?
DATE:    07-Sep-06 01:52:10
HOST:    sverige

I've been quite happy with pine probably since before mutt was created.

Here's some working examples of using it with POP accounts, because that's
what I think you requested.

inbox-path={127.0.0.1:110/pop3/user=postmaster}INBOX

incoming-folders=name1 "#move {lo4:110/pop3/user=user1}INBOX box1",
       name2 "#move {lo:210/pop3/notls/user=user2}INBOX box2",
       pop3 "#move {rh:995/pop3/ssl/user=user3}INBOX box3",
       imap4 "#move {rh:993/ssl/user=user4}INBOX box4"

lo is localhost
rh is a remote host
:110 is a local POP3 server
:210 is a tunnel to SDF's VPM server (POP3 only; no IMAP)
:995 is a POP using SSL
:993 is an IMAP using SSL

name1 is a lable in the interface
user1 is the login ID required by the server (sometimes with @domain)
box1 is the name of the local storage file

The trick was to use incoming-folders

The hard part is getting the ssl/tls/notls all set up correctly

Pine's built-in help system is quite good.

--hth

<HELPDESK.07-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What's avalable on SDF for POP3 accounts?
DATE:    07-Sep-06 01:52:10
HOST:    sverige

I've been quite happy with pine probably since before mutt was created.

Here's some working examples of using it with POP accounts, because that's
what I think you requested.

inbox-path={127.0.0.1:110/pop3/user=postmaster}INBOX

incoming-folders=name1 "#move {lo4:110/pop3/user=user1}INBOX box1",
       name2 "#move {lo:210/pop3/notls/user=user2}INBOX box2",
       pop3 "#move {rh:995/pop3/ssl/user=user3}INBOX box3",
       imap4 "#move {rh:993/ssl/user=user4}INBOX box4"

lo is localhost
rh is a remote host
:110 is a local POP3 server
:210 is a tunnel to SDF's VPM server (POP3 only; no IMAP)
:995 is a POP using SSL
:993 is an IMAP using SSL

name1 is a lable in the interface
user1 is the login ID required by the server (sometimes with @domain)
box1 is the name of the local storage file

The trick was to use incoming-folders

The hard part is getting the ssl/tls/notls all set up correctly

Pine's built-in help system is quite good.

--hth

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. cannot send mail to comcast
DATE:    01-Apr-06 05:01:06
HOST:    sverige

AOL also blocks on no PTR

http://postmaster.aol.com/guidelines/standards.html

"AOL's mail servers will reject connections from any IP address that does
not have reverse DNS (a PTR record)."


220-rly-xa01.mx.aol.com ESMTP mail_relay_in-xa1.10; Tue, 15 Mar
200509:38:53 -05 00
220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
220- authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
220- networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
220- e-mail sent from the internet.  Effective immediately:  AOL
220- may no longer accept connections from IP addresses which
220 have no reverse-DNS (PTR record) assigned.

<HELPDESK.01-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. cannot send mail to comcast
DATE:    01-Apr-06 05:01:06
HOST:    sverige

AOL also blocks on no PTR

http://postmaster.aol.com/guidelines/standards.html

"AOL's mail servers will reject connections from any IP address that does
not have reverse DNS (a PTR record)."


220-rly-xa01.mx.aol.com ESMTP mail_relay_in-xa1.10; Tue, 15 Mar
200509:38:53 -05 00
220-America Online (AOL) and its affiliated companies do not
220- authorize the use of its proprietary computers and computer
220- networks to accept, transmit, or distribute unsolicited bulk
220- e-mail sent from the internet.  Effective immediately:  AOL
220- may no longer accept connections from IP addresses which
220 have no reverse-DNS (PTR record) assigned.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. cannot send mail to comcast
DATE:    01-Apr-06 13:28:16
HOST:    sverige

It's time I suppose to move this discussion to the proper REQUESTS board
before patience wears thin and panic sets in.

<HELPDESK.01-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. cannot send mail to comcast
DATE:    01-Apr-06 13:28:16
HOST:    sverige

It's time I suppose to move this discussion to the proper REQUESTS board
before patience wears thin and panic sets in.

.......TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Foreign Media Reaction
DATE:    11-Dec-05 12:14:30
HOST:    sverige

This might be a good project with which to learn the text tools (sed, awk,
etc.) by creating indices for these documents; one in flat text for maybe
grepping; another in CSV for database import.

<ICELAND.11-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Foreign Media Reaction
DATE:    11-Dec-05 12:14:30
HOST:    sverige

This might be a good project with which to learn the text tools (sed, awk,
etc.) by creating indices for these documents; one in flat text for maybe
grepping; another in CSV for database import.

...TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Connection sharing on Ubuntu
DATE:    13-Jul-06 03:19:34
HOST:    sverige

I don't know if iptables provides NAT or not, but the firewall gateway
provided by fx.dk certainly does.


<LINUX.13-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Connection sharing on Ubuntu
DATE:    13-Jul-06 03:19:34
HOST:    sverige

I don't know if iptables provides NAT or not, but the firewall gateway
provided by fx.dk certainly does.


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Web server on Linux
DATE:    05-Mar-06 04:53:44
HOST:    sverige

Since/if you're the only one for sshd is installed, you could configure it
to listen on some obscure port other than the default .... ?

<LINUX.05-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Web server on Linux
DATE:    05-Mar-06 04:53:44
HOST:    sverige

Since/if you're the only one for sshd is installed, you could configure it
to listen on some obscure port other than the default .... ?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Web server on Linux
DATE:    15-Jan-06 17:52:59
HOST:    sverige

SDF provides MDNS service (as an alternative to dyndns) at the worthy adn
valuable MetaARPA membership level.

Almost any registrar can register .org domain names. I've had nothing but
positive experience with godaddy for several years now.


<LINUX.15-Jan-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Web server on Linux
DATE:    15-Jan-06 17:52:59
HOST:    sverige

SDF provides MDNS service (as an alternative to dyndns) at the worthy adn
valuable MetaARPA membership level.

Almost any registrar can register .org domain names. I've had nothing but
positive experience with godaddy for several years now.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Console configuration
DATE:    15-Jul-06 16:12:37
HOST:    sverige

Thank you, Phil.

For now, not compiling kernel, I'm happy with using vga=771 during boot;
and have decided that whatever character generator is active is sufficient.

and I'll see what I come across for color management

Appreciative,
avo

<LINUX.15-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Console configuration
DATE:    15-Jul-06 16:12:37
HOST:    sverige

Thank you, Phil.

For now, not compiling kernel, I'm happy with using vga=771 during boot;
and have decided that whatever character generator is active is sufficient.

and I'll see what I come across for color management

Appreciative,
avo

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Linux screensaver
DATE:    23-Dec-05 17:48:07
HOST:    sverige

There is however a replacement/continuation product from ecomstation.com

<LINUX.23-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Linux screensaver
DATE:    23-Dec-05 17:48:07
HOST:    sverige

There is however a replacement/continuation product from ecomstation.com

.....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    14-Apr-06 12:15:22
HOST:    sverige

Hello.

One "nautical mile" is equivalent to one minute of arc measured along the
earth's equator.

Obviously as your parallels of latitude, along which you measure longitude,
approach the poles, the minutes of arc become shorter.

In a true sphere, which the earth is not, all minutes of latitude would be
one nautical mile in length because all meridions of longitude are great
circles, as is the equator.

In the case of the earth, its [oblate?] spheroidal shape has a polar
diameter which is smaller than its equatorial diameter. Therefore distances
along one minute of arc decrease with departure from the equator, and in
any event are never as long as one nautucal mile.

In spheres, and other spheroidal forms, "parallels of latitude" are by
definition parallel. The meridions, constructed as great circles through
the poles, experience "convergence of meridians" as they approach the
poles, and since they intersect, they cannot be parallel.

Nonetheless, the intersection of of any parallel of latitude with any
converging meridian is always 90 degrees of spherical angle, for true
spheres and for oblate spheres such as earth.

At any point on earth, a direction of due east is exactly perpendicular to
a direction of due north.

Reference please Nathaniel Bowditch or any other text on "spherical
trigonometry".

I hope this contributes favorably and accurately  to your question, but
assurances are not mine to offer.



<MATH.14-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    14-Apr-06 12:15:22
HOST:    sverige

Hello.

One "nautical mile" is equivalent to one minute of arc measured along the
earth's equator.

Obviously as your parallels of latitude, along which you measure longitude,
approach the poles, the minutes of arc become shorter.

In a true sphere, which the earth is not, all minutes of latitude would be
one nautical mile in length because all meridions of longitude are great
circles, as is the equator.

In the case of the earth, its [oblate?] spheroidal shape has a polar
diameter which is smaller than its equatorial diameter. Therefore distances
along one minute of arc decrease with departure from the equator, and in
any event are never as long as one nautucal mile.

In spheres, and other spheroidal forms, "parallels of latitude" are by
definition parallel. The meridions, constructed as great circles through
the poles, experience "convergence of meridians" as they approach the
poles, and since they intersect, they cannot be parallel.

Nonetheless, the intersection of of any parallel of latitude with any
converging meridian is always 90 degrees of spherical angle, for true
spheres and for oblate spheres such as earth.

At any point on earth, a direction of due east is exactly perpendicular to
a direction of due north.

Reference please Nathaniel Bowditch or any other text on "spherical
trigonometry".

I hope this contributes favorably and accurately  to your question, but
assurances are not mine to offer.



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    14-Apr-06 12:37:50
HOST:    sverige

also .... there are more than two "north" points (directions) at any given
time. Fortunately for you, one of them is the intersection of meridians :)

<MATH.14-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    14-Apr-06 12:37:50
HOST:    sverige

also .... there are more than two "north" points (directions) at any given
time. Fortunately for you, one of them is the intersection of meridians :)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 00:45:43
HOST:    sverige

>> What is the difference in longitude between this point and the points d
>> miles away along the line perpendicular to the north/south line?

> And by this, what I mean is the distance along the great circle path on
> the globe, i.e. distance as we would normally measure it travelling along
> the earth's surface.

Now you've confused yourself :)

"the line perpendicular to the north/south line" is a line running
east/west. It is by definition and completely without ambiguity.

"the great cirlce path" is as it says a great circle, which differs
significantly from the "rhumb line" only in distances of several thousand
miles.

The great circle path, by definition, is only perpendicular to a N-S line
(meridian of longitude), if on the equator, and only on the equator, or on
a pole, in which case the perpendicular line runs North or South, exactly
so :)

There really is no unambiguous definition for the "distance as we would
normally measure it travelling along the earth's surface".

<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 00:45:43
HOST:    sverige

>> What is the difference in longitude between this point and the points d
>> miles away along the line perpendicular to the north/south line?

> And by this, what I mean is the distance along the great circle path on
> the globe, i.e. distance as we would normally measure it travelling along
> the earth's surface.

Now you've confused yourself :)

"the line perpendicular to the north/south line" is a line running
east/west. It is by definition and completely without ambiguity.

"the great cirlce path" is as it says a great circle, which differs
significantly from the "rhumb line" only in distances of several thousand
miles.

The great circle path, by definition, is only perpendicular to a N-S line
(meridian of longitude), if on the equator, and only on the equator, or on
a pole, in which case the perpendicular line runs North or South, exactly
so :)

There really is no unambiguous definition for the "distance as we would
normally measure it travelling along the earth's surface".

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 01:00:52
HOST:    sverige

> d miles away along the line perpendicular to the north/south line?  and
> d miles directly east/west?
> are the same thing.

>> It's any easy mistake to make but they are not.

Sorry. Forget about the sphere for a moment. First, the circle is divided
into 360 integral degrees. N-S is assigned to one, arbitrary for this
purpose, axis. E-W is assigned to the axis perpendicular to the N-S axis.

The angle subtended between a  line running north and a line running east
will always be 90 degrees by definition. Accept that, and then reconsider
the sphere.

Technically, there are no straight two dimensional lines on the surface of
a sphere. Lines between two points on the surface of a sphere are "arcs";
they are not "lines". They may be great circle arcs, or not.

While spherical surfaces have arcs and not lines, they still do have angles
measurable between two intersecting arcs. (and the planes formed by those
arcs)

As I showed in my most recent post here, the great circle route to a  point
due east is not perpendicular to due north at the starting point. In fact,
along a great circle course, your compass bearing, whether or not adjusted
for geodetic or "true" or any other "north", will constantly change!

In the northern hemisphere, a great circle course to a point toward the
east on the same latitude, and less than 180 degrees of longitude away,
will begin  along an azimuth or bearing running north of east, and end on a
bearing running south of east. Only at the midpoint does the great circle
course point due east.





<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 01:00:52
HOST:    sverige

> d miles away along the line perpendicular to the north/south line?  and
> d miles directly east/west?
> are the same thing.

>> It's any easy mistake to make but they are not.

Sorry. Forget about the sphere for a moment. First, the circle is divided
into 360 integral degrees. N-S is assigned to one, arbitrary for this
purpose, axis. E-W is assigned to the axis perpendicular to the N-S axis.

The angle subtended between a  line running north and a line running east
will always be 90 degrees by definition. Accept that, and then reconsider
the sphere.

Technically, there are no straight two dimensional lines on the surface of
a sphere. Lines between two points on the surface of a sphere are "arcs";
they are not "lines". They may be great circle arcs, or not.

While spherical surfaces have arcs and not lines, they still do have angles
measurable between two intersecting arcs. (and the planes formed by those
arcs)

As I showed in my most recent post here, the great circle route to a  point
due east is not perpendicular to due north at the starting point. In fact,
along a great circle course, your compass bearing, whether or not adjusted
for geodetic or "true" or any other "north", will constantly change!

In the northern hemisphere, a great circle course to a point toward the
east on the same latitude, and less than 180 degrees of longitude away,
will begin  along an azimuth or bearing running north of east, and end on a
bearing running south of east. Only at the midpoint does the great circle
course point due east.





TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 01:16:14
HOST:    sverige

> You might think that "d miles away along the line perpendicular to the
north/south line" means along a latitude line, but it doesn't.  It's along
a "Great Circle Arc," which isn't the same as a latitude line.

Is it clear to you yet that this statement is wrong?

The Great Circle Arc is NOT perpendicular to the meridian of longitude (due
North-South line). It is NOT. (except at the mid-point as explained in my
most recent post here)




<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 01:16:14
HOST:    sverige

> You might think that "d miles away along the line perpendicular to the
north/south line" means along a latitude line, but it doesn't.  It's along
a "Great Circle Arc," which isn't the same as a latitude line.

Is it clear to you yet that this statement is wrong?

The Great Circle Arc is NOT perpendicular to the meridian of longitude (due
North-South line). It is NOT. (except at the mid-point as explained in my
most recent post here)




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 01:21:15
HOST:    sverige

"If you are at, say, 40 deg N and face East, and begin walking perfectly
straight (without turning left or right), you will begin to walk more and
more to the South.  Until you cross the equator,"

And if you start walking North, or South, which way do you veer?

Your statements are based upon a completely flawed fundamental
understanding of simple definition of East. Is it fixed yet? or is
additional remediation required?



<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 01:21:15
HOST:    sverige

"If you are at, say, 40 deg N and face East, and begin walking perfectly
straight (without turning left or right), you will begin to walk more and
more to the South.  Until you cross the equator,"

And if you start walking North, or South, which way do you veer?

Your statements are based upon a completely flawed fundamental
understanding of simple definition of East. Is it fixed yet? or is
additional remediation required?



TACKER:  brandon (Brandon Hall)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 05:25:38
HOST:    sverige

> Your statements are based upon a completely flawed fundamental
> understanding of simple definition of East. Is it fixed yet? or is
> additional remediation required?

No need for condescension, Avoyager.

As has been pointed out multiple times now on this thread, the second
and third parts of the original problem are asking two different
things:

o The second part of the problem defines the length of a great
  circle arc and asks for the difference in longitude between the
  endpoints of this arc, expressed in terms of the arc length (d) and
  possibly the latitude and longitude of the starting point.

o The third part defines the length of an equi-latitudinal arc and
  asks for the difference in longitude between the endpoints of this
  arc, also expressed in terms of its arc length (d) and possibly the
  latitude and longitude of the starting point.

These two arcs---the great circle arc and the equi-latitudinal
arc---as defined in the original problem have the same length and
share a common starting point.  They are also "true" arcs in the sense
of being pieces of real circles (and not some other kind of curvy
shape).

The tangents to these two arcs at their starting point are identical
and point east/west.  These tangents are perpendicular to the tangent
to the north-south meridian which passes through the same starting
point.  (Such perpendicularity is no accident: it is properly how we
define "east" and "west".)

(Another aside: why would we care about the great circle arc that
heads east/west away from our starting point?  Because this is in fact
a better notion of distance, the one we tend to use every day: a great
circle arc represents the shortest geodesic path between its
endpoints, much like a straight line represents the shortest path
between its endpoints in Euclidean space.)

Now, having beaten the language and semantics to death, it would be
really great to get back to actual math and tackle the original
problem.  Part 1 is the easiest, followed by part 3 and then part 2.
I'm happy to give hints.

(If you find the original wording of the problem confusing or
ambiguous, please feel free to be constructive and post a concise and
crisp rewording of the problem, I'd be grateful.)

<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  brandon (Brandon Hall)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 05:25:38
HOST:    sverige

> Your statements are based upon a completely flawed fundamental
> understanding of simple definition of East. Is it fixed yet? or is
> additional remediation required?

No need for condescension, Avoyager.

As has been pointed out multiple times now on this thread, the second
and third parts of the original problem are asking two different
things:

o The second part of the problem defines the length of a great
  circle arc and asks for the difference in longitude between the
  endpoints of this arc, expressed in terms of the arc length (d) and
  possibly the latitude and longitude of the starting point.

o The third part defines the length of an equi-latitudinal arc and
  asks for the difference in longitude between the endpoints of this
  arc, also expressed in terms of its arc length (d) and possibly the
  latitude and longitude of the starting point.

These two arcs---the great circle arc and the equi-latitudinal
arc---as defined in the original problem have the same length and
share a common starting point.  They are also "true" arcs in the sense
of being pieces of real circles (and not some other kind of curvy
shape).

The tangents to these two arcs at their starting point are identical
and point east/west.  These tangents are perpendicular to the tangent
to the north-south meridian which passes through the same starting
point.  (Such perpendicularity is no accident: it is properly how we
define "east" and "west".)

(Another aside: why would we care about the great circle arc that
heads east/west away from our starting point?  Because this is in fact
a better notion of distance, the one we tend to use every day: a great
circle arc represents the shortest geodesic path between its
endpoints, much like a straight line represents the shortest path
between its endpoints in Euclidean space.)

Now, having beaten the language and semantics to death, it would be
really great to get back to actual math and tackle the original
problem.  Part 1 is the easiest, followed by part 3 and then part 2.
I'm happy to give hints.

(If you find the original wording of the problem confusing or
ambiguous, please feel free to be constructive and post a concise and
crisp rewording of the problem, I'd be grateful.)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 13:17:09
HOST:    sverige

No condescension intended, Brandon.

You posed the question; and since I'm a geodesist I'm qualified to respond
to it.

If you wish to persist in sustaining the false notion that the starting
course of a great circle arc toward a destination of equal latitude is due
East (perpendicular to the N-S meridian as you acknowledge), then please
consider the case for a destination of equal latitude which  AT (or near)
180 degrees longitude distant. Wouldn't then the great circle course be
due North?



<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 13:17:09
HOST:    sverige

No condescension intended, Brandon.

You posed the question; and since I'm a geodesist I'm qualified to respond
to it.

If you wish to persist in sustaining the false notion that the starting
course of a great circle arc toward a destination of equal latitude is due
East (perpendicular to the N-S meridian as you acknowledge), then please
consider the case for a destination of equal latitude which  AT (or near)
180 degrees longitude distant. Wouldn't then the great circle course be
due North?



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 19:56:17
HOST:    sverige

The original question didn't mention great circle arc at all. Nonetheless,
I've contributed my all toward going out of my way to assist with your
troubles by answering your questions, as you requested. Have a balloon.


<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 19:56:17
HOST:    sverige

The original question didn't mention great circle arc at all. Nonetheless,
I've contributed my all toward going out of my way to assist with your
troubles by answering your questions, as you requested. Have a balloon.


TACKER:  jlromano ()
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 22:17:34
HOST:    norge

avoyager (Avo Yager) wrote:
>
> The Great Circle Arc is NOT perpendicular to the meridian of longitude
> (due North-South line). It is NOT. (except at the mid-point as explained
> in my most recent post here)


  I agree with you.  In fact, the mid-point you explained in a recent post
was exactly the point I was referring to:  Any great-circle arc that is
not the equator (and not a line of longitude itself) will be perpendicular
to a line of longitude at exactly two points.

  I thought I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts.  (My apologies if
I didn't, but I thought my posts were long enough.)

  -- Jean-Luc

<MATH.15-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  jlromano ()
SUBJECT: .. not too hard trig problem
DATE:    15-Apr-06 22:17:34
HOST:    norge

avoyager (Avo Yager) wrote:
>
> The Great Circle Arc is NOT perpendicular to the meridian of longitude
> (due North-South line). It is NOT. (except at the mid-point as explained
> in my most recent post here)


  I agree with you.  In fact, the mid-point you explained in a recent post
was exactly the point I was referring to:  Any great-circle arc that is
not the equator (and not a line of longitude itself) will be perpendicular
to a line of longitude at exactly two points.

  I thought I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts.  (My apologies if
I didn't, but I thought my posts were long enough.)

  -- Jean-Luc

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. transfer quotas
DATE:    12-Aug-06 15:13:33
HOST:    sverige

Regarding the contrasting of MOTD with regular cheap hosting, it is apropos
to keep in mind that almost no regular webhosting, and certainly not the
cheap stuff, comes with shell access.

By my last review, shells are approx. $10/mo and cheap hosting in the $6-10
range.

Since Meta-ARPA is only $3/mo, this discussion should presumably generate
some new interest in that level of existing SDF support opportunities.


<MOTD.12-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. transfer quotas
DATE:    12-Aug-06 15:13:33
HOST:    sverige

Regarding the contrasting of MOTD with regular cheap hosting, it is apropos
to keep in mind that almost no regular webhosting, and certainly not the
cheap stuff, comes with shell access.

By my last review, shells are approx. $10/mo and cheap hosting in the $6-10
range.

Since Meta-ARPA is only $3/mo, this discussion should presumably generate
some new interest in that level of existing SDF support opportunities.


TACKER:  mikes (Mike Singletary)
SUBJECT: .. transfer quotas
DATE:    12-Aug-06 18:11:26
HOST:    sverige

avoyager: These days, shell access is actually quite common in the web
hosting industry. Some places provide it freely with inexpensive plans,
while others require a $20 fee to activate it on an account.

I'm not saying that doesn't give SDF a leg up, as in most cases these are
jailed shells and provide only limited tools. There are, however, some
cases where hosts provide unjailed access to their servers.

I think that SDF's services will definitely appeal to current webmasters
without or with limited shell access to their current host's servers, as
well as the possibility of a close-knit community there to help them learn
UNIX.

<MOTD.12-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mikes (Mike Singletary)
SUBJECT: .. transfer quotas
DATE:    12-Aug-06 18:11:26
HOST:    sverige

avoyager: These days, shell access is actually quite common in the web
hosting industry. Some places provide it freely with inexpensive plans,
while others require a $20 fee to activate it on an account.

I'm not saying that doesn't give SDF a leg up, as in most cases these are
jailed shells and provide only limited tools. There are, however, some
cases where hosts provide unjailed access to their servers.

I think that SDF's services will definitely appeal to current webmasters
without or with limited shell access to their current host's servers, as
well as the possibility of a close-knit community there to help them learn
UNIX.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Why 'motd.org'
DATE:    12-Aug-06 14:20:09
HOST:    sverige

I've often thought that the MOTD model as presented was a great idea and
tool for ... specifically, travelling family members who want to keep their
friends and family appraised of their adventures; students abroad,
newly-weds, etc.

But in my worldview, it'd fit best (perfectly) under the apparently defunct
NON


<MOTD.12-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Why 'motd.org'
DATE:    12-Aug-06 14:20:09
HOST:    sverige

I've often thought that the MOTD model as presented was a great idea and
tool for ... specifically, travelling family members who want to keep their
friends and family appraised of their adventures; students abroad,
newly-weds, etc.

But in my worldview, it'd fit best (perfectly) under the apparently defunct
NON


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Forum Software
DATE:    12-Aug-06 15:11:04
HOST:    sverige

Does the new phpBB v2 run "system-wide" without each user installing the
whole durn thing into $HOME ?

(this has been stated as one reason for considering MOTD on SDF)

<MOTD.12-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Forum Software
DATE:    12-Aug-06 15:11:04
HOST:    sverige

Does the new phpBB v2 run "system-wide" without each user installing the
whole durn thing into $HOME ?

(this has been stated as one reason for considering MOTD on SDF)

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. The future of the music "industry"?
DATE:    14-May-06 04:54:39
HOST:    sverige

Those who control the message  write the definitions.

<MUSIC.14-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. The future of the music "industry"?
DATE:    14-May-06 04:54:39
HOST:    sverige

Those who control the message  write the definitions.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. High Fidelity - Top Five Bands
DATE:    11-Apr-06 11:40:13
HOST:    sverige

Grateful Dead
Jefferson Airplane
Quicksilver Messenger Service
Poco
Byrds
Allman Brothers
Doors
Cream

and countless others, because 5 is just way too few for that era.

and then there's
Les McCann & Eddie Harris
Chet Atkins & Les Paul
Gene Ammons & Sonny Stitt
Soprano Summit
PeeWee Russell
Gene Krupa
Meade Lux Lewis

and Taj Mahal, John Mayall, Spencer Davis, and Merle Haggard

ok.ok.ok....

<MUSIC.11-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. High Fidelity - Top Five Bands
DATE:    11-Apr-06 11:40:13
HOST:    sverige

Grateful Dead
Jefferson Airplane
Quicksilver Messenger Service
Poco
Byrds
Allman Brothers
Doors
Cream

and countless others, because 5 is just way too few for that era.

and then there's
Les McCann & Eddie Harris
Chet Atkins & Les Paul
Gene Ammons & Sonny Stitt
Soprano Summit
PeeWee Russell
Gene Krupa
Meade Lux Lewis

and Taj Mahal, John Mayall, Spencer Davis, and Merle Haggard

ok.ok.ok....

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Music distribution
DATE:    05-Mar-06 19:05:46
HOST:    sverige

yeah, but not Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus

<MUSIC.05-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Music distribution
DATE:    05-Mar-06 19:05:46
HOST:    sverige

yeah, but not Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. different music
DATE:    17-Sep-06 20:58:30
HOST:    sverige

another excellent resource is http://www.publicradiofan.com/ and it has a
lot of useful customization features.

<MUSIC.17-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. different music
DATE:    17-Sep-06 20:58:30
HOST:    sverige

another excellent resource is http://www.publicradiofan.com/ and it has a
lot of useful customization features.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Forum
DATE:    09-Sep-06 15:12:40
HOST:    sverige

com is good for SDF members.

Also, you must have missed it ...

ChanServ([email protected])- Information for channel #The_NON

has been even more quiet there than here however; but you're welcome to
change any of that ;-}

<NON.09-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Forum
DATE:    09-Sep-06 15:12:40
HOST:    sverige

com is good for SDF members.

Also, you must have missed it ...

ChanServ([email protected])- Information for channel #The_NON

has been even more quiet there than here however; but you're welcome to
change any of that ;-}

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. nit
DATE:    09-Jul-06 18:57:58
HOST:    sverige

alas....I'm not clever enough to find it

<NON.09-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. nit
DATE:    09-Jul-06 18:57:58
HOST:    sverige

alas....I'm not clever enough to find it

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. wiki recommendations
DATE:    12-Jul-06 12:28:17
HOST:    sverige

Here for collective reference, is what's listed for those languages at
Wikipedia.

Ruby: http://www.instiki.org/
Python: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/

So I won't bother attempting to set up PHP based PMWiki just yet.

<NON.12-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. wiki recommendations
DATE:    12-Jul-06 12:28:17
HOST:    sverige

Here for collective reference, is what's listed for those languages at
Wikipedia.

Ruby: http://www.instiki.org/
Python: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/

So I won't bother attempting to set up PHP based PMWiki just yet.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. wiki recommendations
DATE:    14-Jul-06 19:46:40
HOST:    sverige

good looking reference ... http://www.wikimatrix.org/
with selectable side-by-side comparisons

<NON.14-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. wiki recommendations
DATE:    14-Jul-06 19:46:40
HOST:    sverige

good looking reference ... http://www.wikimatrix.org/
with selectable side-by-side comparisons

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Transparent proxy and DNS problem
DATE:    13-Jul-06 03:25:49
HOST:    sverige

Since http proxies can do their own name resolution, you might want or need
to access The NON network via an SSH tunnel (to The NON) with dynamic port
forwarding (or tunnel to http proxy). That way your desk/lap/palm
connection browses via SSH and doesn't get caught up in the ISP's
transparent proxy on :80.

<NON.13-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Transparent proxy and DNS problem
DATE:    13-Jul-06 03:25:49
HOST:    sverige

Since http proxies can do their own name resolution, you might want or need
to access The NON network via an SSH tunnel (to The NON) with dynamic port
forwarding (or tunnel to http proxy). That way your desk/lap/palm
connection browses via SSH and doesn't get caught up in the ISP's
transparent proxy on :80.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What prevents a sell out?
DATE:    14-Jul-06 14:19:59
HOST:    sverige

I read two distinct issues in the original post. As to the first, my
persistent and well established view is regarded by some as "too simple"
and by others as insulting. So be it. I mean no offense to any individual
by sharing this view with you.

The single core issue is the fundamental interest of the parties involved.
The parties can be individuals or various associations including
universities and corporations. The fundamental interest is *either* self or
others, and in both cases can be looking at either short or long term
consequences of their current decisions.

Worst case scenario is for a completely selfish party to behave with very
short term concern, and accordingly with zero concern for long term or
other parties.

Now that that picture is clear, we can observe that under-regulated
publicly traded corporations are ... um ... *a* worst case scenario, whose
fundamental operating mandates are greed and exploitation.

This is NOT a blanket condemnation of all capitalism as an economic model,
but I'll stand my ground in asserting that it is a certain and terrible
failure as a political model.

The second issue Stephen brought up is more subtle in that it relates
closely to individuals and their interactions. What is it like for today's
children to grow up in a social climate which not just tolerates, but
encourages, willful deception, exploitation, venemous hypocrisy, and a near
total lack of any ethic (outside of the home)?

That is not a non-question ;-}

The experiences and deliberations of others will certainly vary, but these
have been mine.

<NON.14-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. What prevents a sell out?
DATE:    14-Jul-06 14:19:59
HOST:    sverige

I read two distinct issues in the original post. As to the first, my
persistent and well established view is regarded by some as "too simple"
and by others as insulting. So be it. I mean no offense to any individual
by sharing this view with you.

The single core issue is the fundamental interest of the parties involved.
The parties can be individuals or various associations including
universities and corporations. The fundamental interest is *either* self or
others, and in both cases can be looking at either short or long term
consequences of their current decisions.

Worst case scenario is for a completely selfish party to behave with very
short term concern, and accordingly with zero concern for long term or
other parties.

Now that that picture is clear, we can observe that under-regulated
publicly traded corporations are ... um ... *a* worst case scenario, whose
fundamental operating mandates are greed and exploitation.

This is NOT a blanket condemnation of all capitalism as an economic model,
but I'll stand my ground in asserting that it is a certain and terrible
failure as a political model.

The second issue Stephen brought up is more subtle in that it relates
closely to individuals and their interactions. What is it like for today's
children to grow up in a social climate which not just tolerates, but
encourages, willful deception, exploitation, venemous hypocrisy, and a near
total lack of any ethic (outside of the home)?

That is not a non-question ;-}

The experiences and deliberations of others will certainly vary, but these
have been mine.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. .non meeting Sunday July 16th, 2006
DATE:    14-Jul-06 14:01:16
HOST:    sverige

I'm available after 16z


<NON.14-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. .non meeting Sunday July 16th, 2006
DATE:    14-Jul-06 14:01:16
HOST:    sverige

I'm available after 16z


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    18-Jul-06 18:40:38
HOST:    sdf

The new forum isn't  yet processing users with @sdf.non addresses :(


<NON.18-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    18-Jul-06 18:40:38
HOST:    sdf

The new forum isn't  yet processing users with @sdf.non addresses :(


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    18-Jul-06 23:01:58
HOST:    sdf

Isn't nonnic.org, for now at least, the gateway or bridge by which folks
enter into the wondrous world of The_NON ?


<NON.18-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    18-Jul-06 23:01:58
HOST:    sdf

Isn't nonnic.org, for now at least, the gateway or bridge by which folks
enter into the wondrous world of The_NON ?


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    19-Jul-06 05:20:24
HOST:    sverige

one way bridge into The NON

(rings of Rod Serling :)

<NON.19-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    19-Jul-06 05:20:24
HOST:    sverige

one way bridge into The NON

(rings of Rod Serling :)

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    19-Jul-06 14:20:01
HOST:    sdf

Stephen, could you please clear my username 'avo' from the phpBB when you
get a chance? I used an email @sdf.non (we are in the prototyping and
debugging stages afterall) address, which wasn't delivered, and 'avo'
appears to be a locked out username.


<NON.19-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    19-Jul-06 14:20:01
HOST:    sdf

Stephen, could you please clear my username 'avo' from the phpBB when you
get a chance? I used an email @sdf.non (we are in the prototyping and
debugging stages afterall) address, which wasn't delivered, and 'avo'
appears to be a locked out username.


TACKER:  smj (Stephen Jones)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    19-Jul-06 17:16:33
HOST:    ol

I deleted avoyager and activated avo.

<NON.19-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  smj (Stephen Jones)
SUBJECT: .. where to post about NON?
DATE:    19-Jul-06 17:16:33
HOST:    ol

I deleted avoyager and activated avo.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DNS settings
DATE:    19-Jul-06 14:03:01
HOST:    sverige

It should work for you to add 192.94.73.5 to your list of  DNS servers; and
it's running now so you can try it any time. Make it the last, rather than
first, of your list, so that you don't  hammer it with all your other
queries.

A more complete discussion of this should take place on the nonnic.org
forum soon if not already.

Please post here your results.

<NON.19-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. DNS settings
DATE:    19-Jul-06 14:03:01
HOST:    sverige

It should work for you to add 192.94.73.5 to your list of  DNS servers; and
it's running now so you can try it any time. Make it the last, rather than
first, of your list, so that you don't  hammer it with all your other
queries.

A more complete discussion of this should take place on the nonnic.org
forum soon if not already.

Please post here your results.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Former Texas governor Ann Richards dies
DATE:    14-Sep-06 13:00:54
HOST:    sverige

For those interested, .... the details of how George and Karl "took her
out" are pretty well documented, and greatly under-exposed.




<OBITS.14-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Former Texas governor Ann Richards dies
DATE:    14-Sep-06 13:00:54
HOST:    sverige

For those interested, .... the details of how George and Karl "took her
out" are pretty well documented, and greatly under-exposed.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    01-May-06 01:51:21
HOST:    sverige

OK. Then let's use Switzerland as an example. Or  Sweden. Or New Zealand.

<PEACE.01-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    01-May-06 01:51:21
HOST:    sverige

OK. Then let's use Switzerland as an example. Or  Sweden. Or New Zealand.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    01-May-06 23:47:14
HOST:    sverige

Switerzland, Sweden, several other civilized and industralized nations
today live in peace without significant military operations. 17th century
history is a bit off topic.

<PEACE.01-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    01-May-06 23:47:14
HOST:    sverige

Switerzland, Sweden, several other civilized and industralized nations
today live in peace without significant military operations. 17th century
history is a bit off topic.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    02-May-06 21:23:50
HOST:    sverige

"Show me somebody who risks something precious in a fervid support of an
unpopular issue and then we'll take about his courage."

It seems to me that in the Republican primaries for year 2000, John McCain
was just running a basic political campaign, nothing even fervid, when he
was publicly attacked by outright lies regarding his moral character or
sexual perversions or something sufficiently revolting to voters that it
cost him the rest of the contest. Personal dignity is kind of precious to
most of us, but clearly not to his assailants.

Examples of racial bias are abundant. The Mississippi lynchings aren't
nearly as long ago as your historic examples.

Joseph Wilson did what he thought was virtuous and honorable. That action
directly caused the treasonous exposure of his wife's covert identity, and
with it a measure of national security, which by any account is measured as
precious these days, even by those who undermine it.

Phil Donohue lost his precious job at MSNBC for refusing to toe the
corporate line in his advocacy for peace and ethics.

And, even to the start of this discussion, "For this inspired bit of
courageous matriotism, Ava has been the object of intense and horribly ugly
hate emails and not too subtle threats to do her bodily harm."

Is that the kind of experience you hope for your 15yr old daughter or
grand-daughter?

It seems trifling to us grizzly veterans of thick skinned arguments, and
whose social character and perspectives have been pretty well formed, and
reformed over the years of diverse experience; but I offer that there are
few things in life at all as precious as the innocence of youth.

But me, I'm a pacifist, and not interested in fighting here.


<PEACE.02-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    02-May-06 21:23:50
HOST:    sverige

"Show me somebody who risks something precious in a fervid support of an
unpopular issue and then we'll take about his courage."

It seems to me that in the Republican primaries for year 2000, John McCain
was just running a basic political campaign, nothing even fervid, when he
was publicly attacked by outright lies regarding his moral character or
sexual perversions or something sufficiently revolting to voters that it
cost him the rest of the contest. Personal dignity is kind of precious to
most of us, but clearly not to his assailants.

Examples of racial bias are abundant. The Mississippi lynchings aren't
nearly as long ago as your historic examples.

Joseph Wilson did what he thought was virtuous and honorable. That action
directly caused the treasonous exposure of his wife's covert identity, and
with it a measure of national security, which by any account is measured as
precious these days, even by those who undermine it.

Phil Donohue lost his precious job at MSNBC for refusing to toe the
corporate line in his advocacy for peace and ethics.

And, even to the start of this discussion, "For this inspired bit of
courageous matriotism, Ava has been the object of intense and horribly ugly
hate emails and not too subtle threats to do her bodily harm."

Is that the kind of experience you hope for your 15yr old daughter or
grand-daughter?

It seems trifling to us grizzly veterans of thick skinned arguments, and
whose social character and perspectives have been pretty well formed, and
reformed over the years of diverse experience; but I offer that there are
few things in life at all as precious as the innocence of youth.

But me, I'm a pacifist, and not interested in fighting here.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    28-Apr-06 13:16:08
HOST:    sverige

Hi Fred,

Yeah, I'm not any fan of Huffington either; but it's nice of her to host
the kid's domain.

<PEACE.28-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    28-Apr-06 13:16:08
HOST:    sverige

Hi Fred,

Yeah, I'm not any fan of Huffington either; but it's nice of her to host
the kid's domain.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    30-Apr-06 17:48:14
HOST:    sverige

"The bold are not always vicious conquerors but sometimes merely those who
would risk all on their continued independence in the face of those who
fight to conquer the "other"."

i.e.  the Iraqis

I'm sure all peaceniks would take action rather than complacency when their
liberty and peace was threatened. They always have. It takes courage
because many in the human species are yet unevolved bullys and brutes with
more brawn than brains or ethics; and more self-imposing will to dominate
than to negotiate harmony.

Peace is without fear. It doesn't live in fear, and it does not impart
fear. Peace is possible. It is the testamony of those tho who live it
willfully.

For the warmongers and imperialists, it is only a dream, or an illusion;
for they only feel peace in the presence of other's fear of them.

It's all clearly spelled out in every holy text of every theology
throughout civilization.

I encourage those who think that a repressive police state provides peace
move to Israel and see how it's been working over there for the last few
dozen years. Or maybe Iraq. And take Cheney with you.


<PEACE.30-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. a 15 yr. old activist's flash WWJD
DATE:    30-Apr-06 17:48:14
HOST:    sverige

"The bold are not always vicious conquerors but sometimes merely those who
would risk all on their continued independence in the face of those who
fight to conquer the "other"."

i.e.  the Iraqis

I'm sure all peaceniks would take action rather than complacency when their
liberty and peace was threatened. They always have. It takes courage
because many in the human species are yet unevolved bullys and brutes with
more brawn than brains or ethics; and more self-imposing will to dominate
than to negotiate harmony.

Peace is without fear. It doesn't live in fear, and it does not impart
fear. Peace is possible. It is the testamony of those tho who live it
willfully.

For the warmongers and imperialists, it is only a dream, or an illusion;
for they only feel peace in the presence of other's fear of them.

It's all clearly spelled out in every holy text of every theology
throughout civilization.

I encourage those who think that a repressive police state provides peace
move to Israel and see how it's been working over there for the last few
dozen years. Or maybe Iraq. And take Cheney with you.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Forty-two
DATE:    31-Mar-06 17:42:46
HOST:    sverige

I also enjoyed that; thank you.

Although, I've no idea about any other significance of the number 42, in
HHGuide or elsewhere.

<PHYSICS.31-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Forty-two
DATE:    31-Mar-06 17:42:46
HOST:    sverige

I also enjoyed that; thank you.

Although, I've no idea about any other significance of the number 42, in
HHGuide or elsewhere.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. du Sautoy's failure to perceive one nature of physics
DATE:    01-Apr-06 05:03:59
HOST:    sverige

"Most important objects in mathematics???"

PIes


<PHYSICS.01-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. du Sautoy's failure to perceive one nature of physics
DATE:    01-Apr-06 05:03:59
HOST:    sverige

"Most important objects in mathematics???"

PIes


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Can we get some additional newsgroups
DATE:    01-Sep-06 02:19:52
HOST:    sverige

In case the response is 'no' or slow, you might be able to find those on
news.readfreenews.net and can configure SDF clients to read (and post)
there I expect.




<REQUESTS.01-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Can we get some additional newsgroups
DATE:    01-Sep-06 02:19:52
HOST:    sverige

In case the response is 'no' or slow, you might be able to find those on
news.readfreenews.net and can configure SDF clients to read (and post)
there I expect.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. the 'delme' message
DATE:    04-Sep-06 06:08:59
HOST:    sdf

"I used to ask people to tell us, if they liked, why they had decided
to run 'delme'.  Here is what I got:"

So what? That response has nothing to do with the original suggestion,
which I still support, of just saying "your account has been removed"
rather than "your account has been removed, you stupid fat white commit
twit bastard"


<REQUESTS.04-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. the 'delme' message
DATE:    04-Sep-06 06:08:59
HOST:    sdf

"I used to ask people to tell us, if they liked, why they had decided
to run 'delme'.  Here is what I got:"

So what? That response has nothing to do with the original suggestion,
which I still support, of just saying "your account has been removed"
rather than "your account has been removed, you stupid fat white commit
twit bastard"


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. what happened to tor?
DATE:    07-Feb-06 01:41:56
HOST:    sverige

tor is still being used on sverige; and I suspect from notable lag and
traceroutes and top that it *may* be contributing significantly to negative
performance experiences.

What is the concern about irssi, my favorite irc client? Is it the
proxy/relay feature (which I don't use)?   Wouldn't that constitute a
server level membership?

--Avo

<REQUESTS.07-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. what happened to tor?
DATE:    07-Feb-06 01:41:56
HOST:    sverige

tor is still being used on sverige; and I suspect from notable lag and
traceroutes and top that it *may* be contributing significantly to negative
performance experiences.

What is the concern about irssi, my favorite irc client? Is it the
proxy/relay feature (which I don't use)?   Wouldn't that constitute a
server level membership?

--Avo

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. problem post
DATE:    09-Jun-06 14:10:44
HOST:    sverige

Dialup customers rejected the "In case of problems, most probably there are
some problems" clause.

And then the motd had problems reaching the user who couldn't connect and
login.

So "the good lord" invented patience and panic as part of the human
condition since they couldn't be accomodated by the machines.

<REQUESTS.09-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. problem post
DATE:    09-Jun-06 14:10:44
HOST:    sverige

Dialup customers rejected the "In case of problems, most probably there are
some problems" clause.

And then the motd had problems reaching the user who couldn't connect and
login.

So "the good lord" invented patience and panic as part of the human
condition since they couldn't be accomodated by the machines.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 07:36:25
HOST:    sverige

Claudio,

Nobody likes to lose mail; but Greylisting does not cause the loss of mail.
Greylisting only tells the mail sender to "try again later". Many other
conditions also generate that message, and have done so forever. All mmail
transfer agents know to expect that situation, and know to respond by just
attempting delivery again later. It happens all the time, everywhere,
with or without Greylisting.



<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 07:36:25
HOST:    sverige

Claudio,

Nobody likes to lose mail; but Greylisting does not cause the loss of mail.
Greylisting only tells the mail sender to "try again later". Many other
conditions also generate that message, and have done so forever. All mmail
transfer agents know to expect that situation, and know to respond by just
attempting delivery again later. It happens all the time, everywhere,
with or without Greylisting.



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 13:24:17
HOST:    sverige

This most mis-configured mail server I'm seeing is kintera.com which
resends faster than every second. That's both stupid and insane, and
they've been notified to no avail.

Any mail system which doesn't resend at all, and does not return notice to
sender, isn't worth using.

Please don't suggest that the tail start wagging the dog on this issue.
Basic published standards of practice should be upheld, no matter who
doesn't adhere to them. Those who don't jus risk loss of service.

If you're victimized by your mail host, don't blame SDF, or expect anyone
to try and accomodate misconfigurations of any stripe.



<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 13:24:17
HOST:    sverige

This most mis-configured mail server I'm seeing is kintera.com which
resends faster than every second. That's both stupid and insane, and
they've been notified to no avail.

Any mail system which doesn't resend at all, and does not return notice to
sender, isn't worth using.

Please don't suggest that the tail start wagging the dog on this issue.
Basic published standards of practice should be upheld, no matter who
doesn't adhere to them. Those who don't jus risk loss of service.

If you're victimized by your mail host, don't blame SDF, or expect anyone
to try and accomodate misconfigurations of any stripe.



TACKER:  taviso (Tavis Ormandy)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 13:37:35
HOST:    ukato

> Any mail system which doesn't resend at all, and does not return notice
> to sender, isn't worth using.

Awesome, so all I have to do is contact everyone who sends me mail, or
might want to send me mail in the future and tell them to go and read up
on the relevant rfc's before choosing a mail server to contact me via. Good
thinking avoyager, why didnt I think of that.

<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  taviso (Tavis Ormandy)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 13:37:35
HOST:    ukato

> Any mail system which doesn't resend at all, and does not return notice
> to sender, isn't worth using.

Awesome, so all I have to do is contact everyone who sends me mail, or
might want to send me mail in the future and tell them to go and read up
on the relevant rfc's before choosing a mail server to contact me via. Good
thinking avoyager, why didnt I think of that.

TACKER:  mgardner (Michael Gardner)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 14:36:21
HOST:    sdf

> Awesome, so all I have to do is contact everyone who sends me mail, or
> might want to send me mail in the future and tell them to go and read up
> on the relevant rfc's before choosing a mail server to contact me via.
> Good thinking avoyager, why didnt I think of that.

Yes, perhaps you should, if you're so concerned about it.  I just can't
relate to this thinking that we should bend over backwards to accomodate
every incorrect configuration, and get deluged with spam just so messages
from joescountrybumpkinmailserver.com don't bounce.

I'm going to stand with what I hope is the silent majority here on SDF and
say that I love greylisting.  Furthermore, I would rather lose the
occasional legitimate email than deal with 30 spams a day.  (I have seen no
evidence that greylisting causes lost mail, just responding to those who
think otherwise.)  Incidentally, how many legitimate messages did I
accidentally lose while, eyes glazed over, I stared at my inbox everyday
hitting the delete key about 30 times?  Probably a few.

<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  mgardner (Michael Gardner)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 14:36:21
HOST:    sdf

> Awesome, so all I have to do is contact everyone who sends me mail, or
> might want to send me mail in the future and tell them to go and read up
> on the relevant rfc's before choosing a mail server to contact me via.
> Good thinking avoyager, why didnt I think of that.

Yes, perhaps you should, if you're so concerned about it.  I just can't
relate to this thinking that we should bend over backwards to accomodate
every incorrect configuration, and get deluged with spam just so messages
from joescountrybumpkinmailserver.com don't bounce.

I'm going to stand with what I hope is the silent majority here on SDF and
say that I love greylisting.  Furthermore, I would rather lose the
occasional legitimate email than deal with 30 spams a day.  (I have seen no
evidence that greylisting causes lost mail, just responding to those who
think otherwise.)  Incidentally, how many legitimate messages did I
accidentally lose while, eyes glazed over, I stared at my inbox everyday
hitting the delete key about 30 times?  Probably a few.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 15:44:21
HOST:    sverige

"Awesome, so all I have to do is contact everyone who sends me mail, or
might want to send me mail in the future and tell them to go and read up
on the relevant rfc's before choosing a mail server to contact me via. Good
thinking avoyager, why didnt I think of that."

You did. I didn't.

This matter is so simple. I'm astounded at how many don't get it at all and
just whine.

<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 15:44:21
HOST:    sverige

"Awesome, so all I have to do is contact everyone who sends me mail, or
might want to send me mail in the future and tell them to go and read up
on the relevant rfc's before choosing a mail server to contact me via. Good
thinking avoyager, why didnt I think of that."

You did. I didn't.

This matter is so simple. I'm astounded at how many don't get it at all and
just whine.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 19:05:15
HOST:    sverige

"Maybe you're the one who doesnt get it?"

No.

"let me sum it up for you"

Don't bother trying.

"if everyone implements the standards correctly
, sets sane redelivery policies and nobody misconfigures their mail
server, greylisting wont interfere with legitimate mail delivery (apart
from delaying it for hours, days, etc.)".

Even if everyone did the opposite of what you posit, greylisting still does
not interfere with legitimate mail delivery. In fact it encourages
legitmate mail delivery, regardless of your posits.

I'm done here. You may of course have your last wasted words.


<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    09-Oct-06 19:05:15
HOST:    sverige

"Maybe you're the one who doesnt get it?"

No.

"let me sum it up for you"

Don't bother trying.

"if everyone implements the standards correctly
, sets sane redelivery policies and nobody misconfigures their mail
server, greylisting wont interfere with legitimate mail delivery (apart
from delaying it for hours, days, etc.)".

Even if everyone did the opposite of what you posit, greylisting still does
not interfere with legitimate mail delivery. In fact it encourages
legitmate mail delivery, regardless of your posits.

I'm done here. You may of course have your last wasted words.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    10-Oct-06 14:31:31
HOST:    sverige

It's possible that the spambots will be recoded to attempt one retry an
hour or two later; and those systems will then beat the greylisting. As smj
has pointed out, possibly in the new FAQ section on greylisting, he also
doesn't applly greylisting to senders with SPF records. That's just another
"loophole" thru which policy can be circumvented.

It's possible that today's determined spammers depend more upon quantity of
spewage than upon increasing their percentage of successful deliveries; and
that holding outbound messages in the queue for resend later (when it
stands a very large probability of being rejected anyway) is
counter-productive to their interests, now and until some other
circumstances of their overall technical and social milieu suggest new
strategies.

Nobody every suggested or even thought that blacklisting or even fixing
open relays would end spam forever; or that outbound :25 blocking would end
spam forever; any more than a rational mind would think that there is any
technical solution to greed.

Of course, there are plenty of irrational minds operating in positions of
influence and authority today, so one shouldn't presuppose too much of any
situation.

For now however, every useful tool helps.

Only 3% of greylisted connections return to deliver on my system. That's a
lot of spam stopped, and I don't apply greylisting until very late in the
test sequence.

Far more useful in rejecting spam is to require FCrDNS from every system
which connects to deliver. While RFCs don't require it from MTAs, there is
a dearth of good reason (other than laziness and stupidity) why a
legitimate mailhost cannot or should not configure their DNS for this.

A full 38% of my inbound connections are rejected for this cause, again
with temporary rather than permanent response code, before any other tests
are applied.

The battle goes on.

<REQUESTS.10-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    10-Oct-06 14:31:31
HOST:    sverige

It's possible that the spambots will be recoded to attempt one retry an
hour or two later; and those systems will then beat the greylisting. As smj
has pointed out, possibly in the new FAQ section on greylisting, he also
doesn't applly greylisting to senders with SPF records. That's just another
"loophole" thru which policy can be circumvented.

It's possible that today's determined spammers depend more upon quantity of
spewage than upon increasing their percentage of successful deliveries; and
that holding outbound messages in the queue for resend later (when it
stands a very large probability of being rejected anyway) is
counter-productive to their interests, now and until some other
circumstances of their overall technical and social milieu suggest new
strategies.

Nobody every suggested or even thought that blacklisting or even fixing
open relays would end spam forever; or that outbound :25 blocking would end
spam forever; any more than a rational mind would think that there is any
technical solution to greed.

Of course, there are plenty of irrational minds operating in positions of
influence and authority today, so one shouldn't presuppose too much of any
situation.

For now however, every useful tool helps.

Only 3% of greylisted connections return to deliver on my system. That's a
lot of spam stopped, and I don't apply greylisting until very late in the
test sequence.

Far more useful in rejecting spam is to require FCrDNS from every system
which connects to deliver. While RFCs don't require it from MTAs, there is
a dearth of good reason (other than laziness and stupidity) why a
legitimate mailhost cannot or should not configure their DNS for this.

A full 38% of my inbound connections are rejected for this cause, again
with temporary rather than permanent response code, before any other tests
are applied.

The battle goes on.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    10-Oct-06 15:48:06
HOST:    sverige

Yes, Greg. Greylisting also adds overhead (not dollar cost necessarily) to
the spammer's operation; but only if spammer queues the message for retry.

On the other hand, by rejecting their spew before DATA it saves them
connection time; and gets them through their list faster.

Some earnest anti-spam activists use a technique of actively prolonging the
connection in order to slow down the spewage, sort of like a honey-pot.
It's a bit more resource intensive for the activist however; and of course
the spamware responded by shortening its timeout tolerance.




<REQUESTS.10-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    10-Oct-06 15:48:06
HOST:    sverige

Yes, Greg. Greylisting also adds overhead (not dollar cost necessarily) to
the spammer's operation; but only if spammer queues the message for retry.

On the other hand, by rejecting their spew before DATA it saves them
connection time; and gets them through their list faster.

Some earnest anti-spam activists use a technique of actively prolonging the
connection in order to slow down the spewage, sort of like a honey-pot.
It's a bit more resource intensive for the activist however; and of course
the spamware responded by shortening its timeout tolerance.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    11-Oct-06 00:25:02
HOST:    sverige

"And as far as I can tell, nobody has offered a real solution to this
scenario."

Ah, David, but "they" have; and it's fully described in the SDF FAQ :)
as:

When the previously greylisted connects back, SDF accepts its connection
and allows the email to be delivered.  This also takes in account for other
SMTP servers on the same network since greylisting on SDF only looks at
CIDR 24 (255.255.255.0) and therefore the host number is ignored.  This
allows greylisting to work with large mail server farms such as gmail.

--
Additionally, there are surely one or more lists maintained of totally
incalcitrant hosts, for possible use in whitelisting, which are surely a
magnet for spammers.




<REQUESTS.11-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist -t permission issue
DATE:    11-Oct-06 00:25:02
HOST:    sverige

"And as far as I can tell, nobody has offered a real solution to this
scenario."

Ah, David, but "they" have; and it's fully described in the SDF FAQ :)
as:

When the previously greylisted connects back, SDF accepts its connection
and allows the email to be delivered.  This also takes in account for other
SMTP servers on the same network since greylisting on SDF only looks at
CIDR 24 (255.255.255.0) and therefore the host number is ignored.  This
allows greylisting to work with large mail server farms such as gmail.

--
Additionally, there are surely one or more lists maintained of totally
incalcitrant hosts, for possible use in whitelisting, which are surely a
magnet for spammers.




TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. possibility of greylisted mail quarantine folder?
DATE:    09-Oct-06 13:20:26
HOST:    sverige

David, you're completely missing the methodology of Greylisting. Please see
the SDF tutorial on the subject and links therein.

You could even look in recent conversations in the REQUESTS board and learn
much.

Thank you.

-
avo

<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. possibility of greylisted mail quarantine folder?
DATE:    09-Oct-06 13:20:26
HOST:    sverige

David, you're completely missing the methodology of Greylisting. Please see
the SDF tutorial on the subject and links therein.

You could even look in recent conversations in the REQUESTS board and learn
much.

Thank you.

-
avo

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. possibility of greylisted mail quarantine folder?
DATE:    09-Oct-06 15:46:29
HOST:    sverige

David,

You can't save a copy of a message you don't have. Greylisting refuses to
accept the message (at first, issuing temporary rejection, not permanent
rejection). The message is not trashed, discarded, or anything else. The
sender is told to send it later, before it is delivered. Accordingly, it is
not on the system available to be saved.

The whole point of greylisting is to leave the spewage on the spewers
system, not accept it with a promise to deliver it.

When the sender tries again, the message is accepted and delivered to you.
THAT is the responsiblity of the mail server which accepts the mail, to
deliver what it accepts. You may then do what you wish with it.

By the way, it is NOT a responsibility of the mail server to accept the
mail in the first place; only to deliver it after it has accepted it.

Greylisting says to the sender "I will accept your mail in ten minutes.
Send it then."  There is nothing irresponsible about that. It happens all
the time for many reasons other than greylisting.

Enjoy it. It works well.

-
avo



<REQUESTS.09-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. possibility of greylisted mail quarantine folder?
DATE:    09-Oct-06 15:46:29
HOST:    sverige

David,

You can't save a copy of a message you don't have. Greylisting refuses to
accept the message (at first, issuing temporary rejection, not permanent
rejection). The message is not trashed, discarded, or anything else. The
sender is told to send it later, before it is delivered. Accordingly, it is
not on the system available to be saved.

The whole point of greylisting is to leave the spewage on the spewers
system, not accept it with a promise to deliver it.

When the sender tries again, the message is accepted and delivered to you.
THAT is the responsiblity of the mail server which accepts the mail, to
deliver what it accepts. You may then do what you wish with it.

By the way, it is NOT a responsibility of the mail server to accept the
mail in the first place; only to deliver it after it has accepted it.

Greylisting says to the sender "I will accept your mail in ten minutes.
Send it then."  There is nothing irresponsible about that. It happens all
the time for many reasons other than greylisting.

Enjoy it. It works well.

-
avo



.....TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. wtf??
DATE:    18-Sep-06 13:09:03
HOST:    sverige

and $ wtf bsd

<REQUESTS.18-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. wtf??
DATE:    18-Sep-06 13:09:03
HOST:    sverige

and $ wtf bsd

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. spf records
DATE:    24-Jun-06 13:02:46
HOST:    sverige

I thought the SPF initiative had been abandoned by most serious concerns;
but that was many months ago.

<REQUESTS.24-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. spf records
DATE:    24-Jun-06 13:02:46
HOST:    sverige

I thought the SPF initiative had been abandoned by most serious concerns;
but that was many months ago.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. MDNS not working for me
DATE:    28-Aug-06 12:06:09
HOST:    sverige

I hadn't noticed or checked before now, but in doing so at this time I find
that the nameservers at freeshell.org cannot be reached.

Thanks for noticing!

<REQUESTS.28-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. MDNS not working for me
DATE:    28-Aug-06 12:06:09
HOST:    sverige

I hadn't noticed or checked before now, but in doing so at this time I find
that the nameservers at freeshell.org cannot be reached.

Thanks for noticing!

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    04-Oct-06 02:50:45
HOST:    sverige

mrbigjas: I find the greylist entries to have timestamps:

-- in the future (i.e. expiration date/time ??)

-- 12 hrs. later than the message was received.

The obvious conclusion from this, and answer to your question, will be
verifiable in a few more hours yet.


<REQUESTS.04-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    04-Oct-06 02:50:45
HOST:    sverige

mrbigjas: I find the greylist entries to have timestamps:

-- in the future (i.e. expiration date/time ??)

-- 12 hrs. later than the message was received.

The obvious conclusion from this, and answer to your question, will be
verifiable in a few more hours yet.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    05-Oct-06 19:35:04
HOST:    sverige

yohann, your problem has nothing to do with greylisting; I didn't see in
your post which of your two mail servers issued the permanent rejection; I
did see a lot of irrelevance pasted into your post. Please try to study the
matter a little more earnestly before searching for others to blame.

yohaan.net.             43200   IN      MX      75 sevcom.com.
yohaan.net.             43200   IN      MX      50 smtp.freeshell.org.
;; Received 225 bytes from 192.94.73.20#53(ns-a.freeshell.org) in 50 ms

Your two mail servers are listed above.
Greylisting issues a response of "temporary failure" not permanent.

During the recent disk upgrades, it is possible that some of the SDF DNS
servers were temporarily unavailable, which might cause sending servers to
not find an MX for your domain, or even find your domain at all. In that
case, they *might* issue a permanent failure; or the might hold the message
for up to 5 days while continuing attempts to deliver the message.

Don't panic. It interferes with sound reasoning and useful research.

Thanks.

<REQUESTS.05-Oct-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    05-Oct-06 19:35:04
HOST:    sverige

yohann, your problem has nothing to do with greylisting; I didn't see in
your post which of your two mail servers issued the permanent rejection; I
did see a lot of irrelevance pasted into your post. Please try to study the
matter a little more earnestly before searching for others to blame.

yohaan.net.             43200   IN      MX      75 sevcom.com.
yohaan.net.             43200   IN      MX      50 smtp.freeshell.org.
;; Received 225 bytes from 192.94.73.20#53(ns-a.freeshell.org) in 50 ms

Your two mail servers are listed above.
Greylisting issues a response of "temporary failure" not permanent.

During the recent disk upgrades, it is possible that some of the SDF DNS
servers were temporarily unavailable, which might cause sending servers to
not find an MX for your domain, or even find your domain at all. In that
case, they *might* issue a permanent failure; or the might hold the message
for up to 5 days while continuing attempts to deliver the message.

Don't panic. It interferes with sound reasoning and useful research.

Thanks.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    28-Sep-06 20:44:08
HOST:    sverige

I'll share two observations, both understood by me to be factual, without
taking a position on Deanna's request.

Greylisting refuses to accept mail for a configurable number of minutes
after the first rejection. The next resend attempt is controlled by the
sender. For the sender to wait 4 hours for first resend is as
inapproppriate as to resend after 4 seconds. A more practical schedule is
for first resend to be in the range of 1-5 minutes, and each subsequent
attempt to be a doubling of the wait interval.

Greylisting is extremely effective against spam and virus email, and it
does not block wanted mail, only delay it, usually by less than 10 minutes.

Additionally, I offer the suggestion that customizing system server policy
for individual users is a non-trivial customization.

--since you asked


<REQUESTS.28-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    28-Sep-06 20:44:08
HOST:    sverige

I'll share two observations, both understood by me to be factual, without
taking a position on Deanna's request.

Greylisting refuses to accept mail for a configurable number of minutes
after the first rejection. The next resend attempt is controlled by the
sender. For the sender to wait 4 hours for first resend is as
inapproppriate as to resend after 4 seconds. A more practical schedule is
for first resend to be in the range of 1-5 minutes, and each subsequent
attempt to be a doubling of the wait interval.

Greylisting is extremely effective against spam and virus email, and it
does not block wanted mail, only delay it, usually by less than 10 minutes.

Additionally, I offer the suggestion that customizing system server policy
for individual users is a non-trivial customization.

--since you asked


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    28-Sep-06 21:34:17
HOST:    sverige

I just confirmed that SDF is deferring inbound mail for longer than 30
minutes; though I don't show it to be a greylisting ....

from mail.log:

smtp.freeshell.org[192.94.73.18], delay=1925, status=deferred (host
smtp.freeshell.org[192.94.73.18] said: 451 4.7.1 Connection deferred. (in
reply to RCPT TO command)

<REQUESTS.28-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. greylist-milter is out of hand.
DATE:    28-Sep-06 21:34:17
HOST:    sverige

I just confirmed that SDF is deferring inbound mail for longer than 30
minutes; though I don't show it to be a greylisting ....

from mail.log:

smtp.freeshell.org[192.94.73.18], delay=1925, status=deferred (host
smtp.freeshell.org[192.94.73.18] said: 451 4.7.1 Connection deferred. (in
reply to RCPT TO command)

...TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ice Hockey
DATE:    06-Nov-06 03:32:37
HOST:    sverige

Yep. I played indoor and outdoor throughout childhood before high school,
back when there were 6 teams in the NHL.

Today the skaters are faster, their shots are faster, and the game has been
overhauled completely with sprint-till-you-can't on-the-fly shift changes,
while the ice area, still the same size, has become far too small.

For men's hockey to interest me any more, the rink needs to expand by at
least 30%.

Meanwhile, as evidenced by the 2006 Olympic Games (winter Athens), womens
hockey has become an exciting sport. I find it all together different, and
in many ways better than, the mens version.



<SPORTS.06-Nov-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Ice Hockey
DATE:    06-Nov-06 03:32:37
HOST:    sverige

Yep. I played indoor and outdoor throughout childhood before high school,
back when there were 6 teams in the NHL.

Today the skaters are faster, their shots are faster, and the game has been
overhauled completely with sprint-till-you-can't on-the-fly shift changes,
while the ice area, still the same size, has become far too small.

For men's hockey to interest me any more, the rink needs to expand by at
least 30%.

Meanwhile, as evidenced by the 2006 Olympic Games (winter Athens), womens
hockey has become an exciting sport. I find it all together different, and
in many ways better than, the mens version.



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. console based checkbook registry program
DATE:    18-Aug-06 02:12:08
HOST:    sverige

lots for DOS, still a console environment, even on palmtops such as the
HP200lx

Oh!; but there is no "such as".


<SPOTON.18-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. console based checkbook registry program
DATE:    18-Aug-06 02:12:08
HOST:    sverige

lots for DOS, still a console environment, even on palmtops such as the
HP200lx

Oh!; but there is no "such as".


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Virtual PC
DATE:    12-Aug-06 20:32:05
HOST:    sverige

James, what device did you use for a mouse with X11 in your NetBSD guest?

<TECHIES.12-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Virtual PC
DATE:    12-Aug-06 20:32:05
HOST:    sverige

James, what device did you use for a mouse with X11 in your NetBSD guest?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Virtual PC
DATE:    13-Aug-06 21:56:38
HOST:    sverige

Thanks, James. That helped me find my mouse at /dev/psaux

Here's my functioning XF86 config (partial/relevant):
Section "InputDevice"
       Identifier      "Configured Mouse"
       Driver          "mouse"
       Option          "CorePointer"
       Option          "Device"                "/dev/psaux"
       Option          "Protocol"              "PS/2"
       Option          "Emulate3Buttons"       "true"
EndSection

Section "Device"
       Identifier      "S3 Inc. 86c764/765 [Trio32/64/64V+]"
       Driver          "s3"
       VideoRam        4096
EndSection

I'm using the old Connectix VPC for OS/2 from before MS purchased and
killed it; and have the printed manual which details the emulations and
other things. If you have any questions about VPC which you think it or I
may be able to answer, please ask.

The last time I attempted a NetBSD install into this system, it failed; but
now with a strong Debian net-install working well, I'll try harder to get
an NetBSD guest running.

<TECHIES.13-Aug-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Virtual PC
DATE:    13-Aug-06 21:56:38
HOST:    sverige

Thanks, James. That helped me find my mouse at /dev/psaux

Here's my functioning XF86 config (partial/relevant):
Section "InputDevice"
       Identifier      "Configured Mouse"
       Driver          "mouse"
       Option          "CorePointer"
       Option          "Device"                "/dev/psaux"
       Option          "Protocol"              "PS/2"
       Option          "Emulate3Buttons"       "true"
EndSection

Section "Device"
       Identifier      "S3 Inc. 86c764/765 [Trio32/64/64V+]"
       Driver          "s3"
       VideoRam        4096
EndSection

I'm using the old Connectix VPC for OS/2 from before MS purchased and
killed it; and have the printed manual which details the emulations and
other things. If you have any questions about VPC which you think it or I
may be able to answer, please ask.

The last time I attempted a NetBSD install into this system, it failed; but
now with a strong Debian net-install working well, I'll try harder to get
an NetBSD guest running.

..TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Thanks to smj
DATE:    18-Dec-05 23:50:26
HOST:    sverige

I agree. Thank you, Stephen. Your affection for this project does show in
your dedication to it; and your toleration of those of us who aren't too
smart or too wealthy.

<THANKS.18-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Thanks to smj
DATE:    18-Dec-05 23:50:26
HOST:    sverige

I agree. Thank you, Stephen. Your affection for this project does show in
your dedication to it; and your toleration of those of us who aren't too
smart or too wealthy.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. BYU Suspends 911 Truth Professor Steven Jones
DATE:    13-Sep-06 16:39:06
HOST:    sverige

No they are not. You're just afraid of the truths which the US Government
is obviously hiding.

That "government" by the way is the same gang of treasonous wackos which
spent more money investigating Clinton's "Whitewater" dealings than they
have on investigating their precious "9-11". LOTS MORE.

If you can be proud of that record, you're one sick scared anonymous sap
who has been totally bamboozled indeed.

--
deal with it

<TINFOIL.13-Sep-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. BYU Suspends 911 Truth Professor Steven Jones
DATE:    13-Sep-06 16:39:06
HOST:    sverige

No they are not. You're just afraid of the truths which the US Government
is obviously hiding.

That "government" by the way is the same gang of treasonous wackos which
spent more money investigating Clinton's "Whitewater" dealings than they
have on investigating their precious "9-11". LOTS MORE.

If you can be proud of that record, you're one sick scared anonymous sap
who has been totally bamboozled indeed.

--
deal with it

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. So where do we draw the line ...
DATE:    19-May-06 00:25:52
HOST:    sverige

"I bet if you use torpark or ssh that automagically makes you a criminal --
you've got something to hide through encryption."

Well now, there's the rub, you see, because .... me .... I have nothing "to
hide" which you or anyone else could use against me in any way; and nothing
subversive or scandalous etc.; but on the other hand, whatever I have IS
"mine" and I hide it because it's no business of yours, no matter *what* it
is.

The Net still has time to evolve to where *everything* is encrypted by
default, and users have to go out of their way to transmit in plain open
text.

That's much more likely  to happen than the War Party holding bake sales to
finance their reckless vain imperialisms, dontcha think?

<TINFOIL.19-May-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. So where do we draw the line ...
DATE:    19-May-06 00:25:52
HOST:    sverige

"I bet if you use torpark or ssh that automagically makes you a criminal --
you've got something to hide through encryption."

Well now, there's the rub, you see, because .... me .... I have nothing "to
hide" which you or anyone else could use against me in any way; and nothing
subversive or scandalous etc.; but on the other hand, whatever I have IS
"mine" and I hide it because it's no business of yours, no matter *what* it
is.

The Net still has time to evolve to where *everything* is encrypted by
default, and users have to go out of their way to transmit in plain open
text.

That's much more likely  to happen than the War Party holding bake sales to
finance their reckless vain imperialisms, dontcha think?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Listen to Alex Jones!
DATE:    29-Jun-06 22:24:54
HOST:    sverige

MUCH more viable than the official lies.

<TINFOIL.29-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Listen to Alex Jones!
DATE:    29-Jun-06 22:24:54
HOST:    sverige

MUCH more viable than the official lies.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. How paranoid are j00?
DATE:    29-Jun-06 22:23:59
HOST:    sverige

I remind interested parties of traceroute.org

<TINFOIL.29-Jun-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. How paranoid are j00?
DATE:    29-Jun-06 22:23:59
HOST:    sverige

I remind interested parties of traceroute.org

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Discussions?
DATE:    23-Mar-06 11:59:19
HOST:    sverige

To those contributing, ... "thanks" for the discussion; I'm enjoying it and
probably learning something.

<TUTORIALS.23-Mar-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Discussions?
DATE:    23-Mar-06 11:59:19
HOST:    sverige

To those contributing, ... "thanks" for the discussion; I'm enjoying it and
probably learning something.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SSH key authentication
DATE:    28-Jul-06 23:04:15
HOST:    sverige

I have imported samble's SSH Key Authentication tutorial into the SDF
tutorial system, and edited out the silenceisdefeat references and wiki
remnants.

I have NOT walked thru it to verify suitability with SDF accounts.

It should be done.

Thank you, samble, for your  contribution.

<TUTORIALS.28-Jul-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. SSH key authentication
DATE:    28-Jul-06 23:04:15
HOST:    sverige

I have imported samble's SSH Key Authentication tutorial into the SDF
tutorial system, and edited out the silenceisdefeat references and wiki
remnants.

I have NOT walked thru it to verify suitability with SDF accounts.

It should be done.

Thank you, samble, for your  contribution.

...TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Unix in Win32 CommandLine
DATE:    21-Jan-06 22:47:40
HOST:    sverige

you could create aliases for the 4DOS command processor; or batch files for
either 4dos or command.com

Batch files, in case you don't know, are DOS based shell scripts.

ls.bat:
dir %1

not too much more  difficult than that.

of course, there is not a 1:1 correspondence, do don't expect to be able to
do everything you want, but if DOS can do it by keystroke, it can do it by
batchfile script.


<VIPDISCUSS.21-Jan-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Unix in Win32 CommandLine
DATE:    21-Jan-06 22:47:40
HOST:    sverige

you could create aliases for the 4DOS command processor; or batch files for
either 4dos or command.com

Batch files, in case you don't know, are DOS based shell scripts.

ls.bat:
dir %1

not too much more  difficult than that.

of course, there is not a 1:1 correspondence, do don't expect to be able to
do everything you want, but if DOS can do it by keystroke, it can do it by
batchfile script.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. hurricanes and global warming
DATE:    07-Dec-05 13:25:57
HOST:    sverige

Fred, you're my kind of scientist, always taking a measure of how wrong we
are. Accordingly, the retention of hair upon your head is not necessarily a
reflection of your time spent in "adult stores", or on the beach ;-}


<WEATHER.07-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. hurricanes and global warming
DATE:    07-Dec-05 13:25:57
HOST:    sverige

Fred, you're my kind of scientist, always taking a measure of how wrong we
are. Accordingly, the retention of hair upon your head is not necessarily a
reflection of your time spent in "adult stores", or on the beach ;-}


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. hurricanes and global warming
DATE:    07-Dec-05 22:52:32
HOST:    sverige

I think the fact set includes observation that the burning of carbon based
fuels does pollute the atmosphere, and has consequences both direct and
indirect which are both unintentional and unrecognized; and that Ethopia is
not the largest source of this activity.

Peace,





<WEATHER.07-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. hurricanes and global warming
DATE:    07-Dec-05 22:52:32
HOST:    sverige

I think the fact set includes observation that the burning of carbon based
fuels does pollute the atmosphere, and has consequences both direct and
indirect which are both unintentional and unrecognized; and that Ethopia is
not the largest source of this activity.

Peace,





.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. html, xhtml1, xhtml11
DATE:    17-Apr-06 12:15:56
HOST:    sverige

Hi. Since we're on this subject, I'd like to ask which is the "next step"
from basic HTML in order to utilize a common page template or "include
files", and easier techniques for more advanced formatting ;)

Thanks.


<WEB.17-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. html, xhtml1, xhtml11
DATE:    17-Apr-06 12:15:56
HOST:    sverige

Hi. Since we're on this subject, I'd like to ask which is the "next step"
from basic HTML in order to utilize a common page template or "include
files", and easier techniques for more advanced formatting ;)

Thanks.


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. html, xhtml1, xhtml11
DATE:    17-Apr-06 16:08:21
HOST:    sverige

"server side include" <-- thank you!, rbigelo.

<WEB.17-Apr-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. html, xhtml1, xhtml11
DATE:    17-Apr-06 16:08:21
HOST:    sverige

"server side include" <-- thank you!, rbigelo.

.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. How many hits do you get?
DATE:    30-Dec-05 15:31:49
HOST:    sverige

I'd be interested in the code as a learning venture, having not trekked
into awkland yet. You did it all without sed ?

<WEB.30-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. How many hits do you get?
DATE:    30-Dec-05 15:31:49
HOST:    sverige

I'd be interested in the code as a learning venture, having not trekked
into awkland yet. You did it all without sed ?

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. How many hits do you get?
DATE:    31-Dec-05 01:19:31
HOST:    sverige

Hi. Regarding the specific issue of smj's logfile proposal:

-- I'm not here for the webhosting; others will care more.
-- User logs should definitely be counted in their tweaked quota.
-- Error logs are as important as transfer logs.
-- SDF operations and continuation are more important than individual user
benefits.

The call for discussion has however prompted me to consider, and to speak
about, other more general matters for SDF, which should more properly be
conveyed in bboard:ARPA I expect, and I may get around to posting there,
but here's an outline:

-- User weblogs hardly seems like a membership level; in the big picture,
they could be incorporated into TWEAK, or into META, or SDF could conceive
a menu of ala-carte options available to different membership levels,
similar to (extension of) current DBA </ramble>. The structure of SDF
membership levels and service offerings merits its own consideration and
discussion.

-- Privacy considerations: I cherish privacy, and I enjoy community. SDF
has been a community project, and even a year ago there was no more privacy
than user applied permissions. There has been a shift this past year, due
to abuses. Generally, that's a trend we can probably expect to continue.
Securing weblogs is part of that continuing momentum which merits its own
consideration and discussion.

-- Resource Loading, specifically with regard to NFS and /tmp :
Many users, myself included or in particular, are familiar with networking,
but not with the loading and impact upon SDF from just using their/our own
directory space. Somehow, more education and reminders and helpers etc. may
be deployable to help relieve the system loading on NFS. I had to be told,
and maybe I can remember, to do disk intensive things in /tmp rather than
~/tmp.

What's nice about SDF is that the transitioning from user to member is a
continuing process which hasn't stopped yet.

Thanks to Stephen for setting it up and maintaining it, and to others here
for making it happen.

I'm displeased to have offered these seemingly important considerations
under a board and topic which bears no relevance to the issues raised.
Please do respond and continue these discussions in bboard:ARPA or other
more appropriate location.

Thank you,
--avo


<WEB.31-Dec-05>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. How many hits do you get?
DATE:    31-Dec-05 01:19:31
HOST:    sverige

Hi. Regarding the specific issue of smj's logfile proposal:

-- I'm not here for the webhosting; others will care more.
-- User logs should definitely be counted in their tweaked quota.
-- Error logs are as important as transfer logs.
-- SDF operations and continuation are more important than individual user
benefits.

The call for discussion has however prompted me to consider, and to speak
about, other more general matters for SDF, which should more properly be
conveyed in bboard:ARPA I expect, and I may get around to posting there,
but here's an outline:

-- User weblogs hardly seems like a membership level; in the big picture,
they could be incorporated into TWEAK, or into META, or SDF could conceive
a menu of ala-carte options available to different membership levels,
similar to (extension of) current DBA </ramble>. The structure of SDF
membership levels and service offerings merits its own consideration and
discussion.

-- Privacy considerations: I cherish privacy, and I enjoy community. SDF
has been a community project, and even a year ago there was no more privacy
than user applied permissions. There has been a shift this past year, due
to abuses. Generally, that's a trend we can probably expect to continue.
Securing weblogs is part of that continuing momentum which merits its own
consideration and discussion.

-- Resource Loading, specifically with regard to NFS and /tmp :
Many users, myself included or in particular, are familiar with networking,
but not with the loading and impact upon SDF from just using their/our own
directory space. Somehow, more education and reminders and helpers etc. may
be deployable to help relieve the system loading on NFS. I had to be told,
and maybe I can remember, to do disk intensive things in /tmp rather than
~/tmp.

What's nice about SDF is that the transitioning from user to member is a
continuing process which hasn't stopped yet.

Thanks to Stephen for setting it up and maintaining it, and to others here
for making it happen.

I'm displeased to have offered these seemingly important considerations
under a board and topic which bears no relevance to the issues raised.
Please do respond and continue these discussions in bboard:ARPA or other
more appropriate location.

Thank you,
--avo


.TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    26-Feb-06 13:26:52
HOST:    sverige

I think you'll find that there are very few corn growers in the U.S. any
more, if you can even still call it "corn" (ref. Monsanto)

Furthermore, while we all have a fondness for renewable resources, most of
them do require responsible care; for instance, not destroying the
necessary soils and water supplies.

Now, if we could only manage this situation from sense of social
responaibility, rather than profit by expoitation, ...


<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    26-Feb-06 13:26:52
HOST:    sverige

I think you'll find that there are very few corn growers in the U.S. any
more, if you can even still call it "corn" (ref. Monsanto)

Furthermore, while we all have a fondness for renewable resources, most of
them do require responsible care; for instance, not destroying the
necessary soils and water supplies.

Now, if we could only manage this situation from sense of social
responaibility, rather than profit by expoitation, ...


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    26-Feb-06 21:28:12
HOST:    sverige

walk, bike, public transit is good for some transportation requirements;
and are very otherwise useful and appropriate activities, but are only a
teeny part of the total energy equation which also incorporates heat,
light, and other electrical uses (tap,tap,tap).


<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    26-Feb-06 21:28:12
HOST:    sverige

walk, bike, public transit is good for some transportation requirements;
and are very otherwise useful and appropriate activities, but are only a
teeny part of the total energy equation which also incorporates heat,
light, and other electrical uses (tap,tap,tap).


TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    28-Feb-06 12:15:02
HOST:    sverige

but there's also energy required to plant, harvest, transport, store, and
distribute.

I suspect that any centralized system will fail due to costs of
transportation, storage, and distribution; as well as single point of
failure scenarios.

All efforts should be made to enable the most number of communities to
feed, clothe, and shelter themselves. Until mega-corporations are removed
from government, it probably won't happen.

<YELLOW.28-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    28-Feb-06 12:15:02
HOST:    sverige

but there's also energy required to plant, harvest, transport, store, and
distribute.

I suspect that any centralized system will fail due to costs of
transportation, storage, and distribution; as well as single point of
failure scenarios.

All efforts should be made to enable the most number of communities to
feed, clothe, and shelter themselves. Until mega-corporations are removed
from government, it probably won't happen.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    28-Feb-06 20:35:14
HOST:    sverige

Oh come on, David! "Decentralized" doesn't mean "individual"! Think in
terms of "community". There are no "economies of scale" in a centralized
food or water supply far from its consumers; and there's lots to be said
for maintaining local control and responsibility over local needs; and
there's even more to be said for multiple efforts working to achieve a
common goal, rather than monopolizing one process.

Though I may have the "even more" order reversed :)



<YELLOW.28-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    28-Feb-06 20:35:14
HOST:    sverige

Oh come on, David! "Decentralized" doesn't mean "individual"! Think in
terms of "community". There are no "economies of scale" in a centralized
food or water supply far from its consumers; and there's lots to be said
for maintaining local control and responsibility over local needs; and
there's even more to be said for multiple efforts working to achieve a
common goal, rather than monopolizing one process.

Though I may have the "even more" order reversed :)



TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    28-Feb-06 20:46:35
HOST:    sverige

The best perspective on the "downside" of wind generation is downwind from
a turbine through which the sun is shining, while your visual environment
is strobing and your audio enviornment is pulsing to a harmonic
"whuump".."whuump".."whuump"

(unless you're a bird or a bat or maybe a butterfly)

<YELLOW.28-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. getting this thing started ..
DATE:    28-Feb-06 20:46:35
HOST:    sverige

The best perspective on the "downside" of wind generation is downwind from
a turbine through which the sun is shining, while your visual environment
is strobing and your audio enviornment is pulsing to a harmonic
"whuump".."whuump".."whuump"

(unless you're a bird or a bat or maybe a butterfly)

TACKER:  jgriffit (Jonathan Griffitts)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 17:45:16
HOST:    sdf

avoyager (Avo Yager) wrote:
>
>If there was a decentralized technology by which communities could tap
>inner-earth resources (ala geothermal) for conversion into various forms
>of civilized energy needs starting with electricity, would it/we eventually
>reduce the earth's mass enough so that it would drift into a larger orbit
>away from the life-giving Sun and freeze over?

Is this an attempt at humor?  It makes no sense at all.  If you're going to
talk about this stuff you need to learn some physics.

Why would tapping geothermal heat affect the earth's mass?  Also, reducing
the mass of the earth in some magical way would not change its orbit.

<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  jgriffit (Jonathan Griffitts)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 17:45:16
HOST:    sdf

avoyager (Avo Yager) wrote:
>
>If there was a decentralized technology by which communities could tap
>inner-earth resources (ala geothermal) for conversion into various forms
>of civilized energy needs starting with electricity, would it/we eventually
>reduce the earth's mass enough so that it would drift into a larger orbit
>away from the life-giving Sun and freeze over?

Is this an attempt at humor?  It makes no sense at all.  If you're going to
talk about this stuff you need to learn some physics.

Why would tapping geothermal heat affect the earth's mass?  Also, reducing
the mass of the earth in some magical way would not change its orbit.

TACKER:  jgriffit (Jonathan Griffitts)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 17:52:34
HOST:    sdf

Well, I seem to be disagreeing with everyone today.  Might as well
continue:

avoyager (Avo Yager) wrote:
>I think you'll find that there are very few corn growers in the U.S. any
>more, if you can even still call it "corn" (ref. Monsanto)

You'll have to explain what you mean by this.  Are you quibbling with the
definition of "corn"?  There certainly seem to be a lot of fields of corn
(aka maize) visible as one drives across the great plains.  The US does
something like half the worldwide production of corn.

<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  jgriffit (Jonathan Griffitts)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 17:52:34
HOST:    sdf

Well, I seem to be disagreeing with everyone today.  Might as well
continue:

avoyager (Avo Yager) wrote:
>I think you'll find that there are very few corn growers in the U.S. any
>more, if you can even still call it "corn" (ref. Monsanto)

You'll have to explain what you mean by this.  Are you quibbling with the
definition of "corn"?  There certainly seem to be a lot of fields of corn
(aka maize) visible as one drives across the great plains.  The US does
something like half the worldwide production of corn.

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 18:31:32
HOST:    sverige

"lots of fields of corn" are owned by the same small handfull of giant
agri-businesses, not traditional farmers, and not very many of them.

and, yes, genetically modified corn is, um, different; different enough to
not be "corn" in much the same way that "slices" are not "cheese".

<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 18:31:32
HOST:    sverige

"lots of fields of corn" are owned by the same small handfull of giant
agri-businesses, not traditional farmers, and not very many of them.

and, yes, genetically modified corn is, um, different; different enough to
not be "corn" in much the same way that "slices" are not "cheese".

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 18:38:10
HOST:    sverige

"Why would tapping geothermal heat affect the earth's mass?"

I said 'resources'; I did no say 'heat'; as you have observed, the
distinction makes a difference. My introduction of this bulletin was to, in
part, guide attention toward "the law of unintended consequences".

"Also, reducing the mass of the earth in some magical way would not change its orbit."

Are you sure of that? Isn't orbit a function of gravity, and gravity a
function of mass?


<YELLOW.26-Feb-06>[ <ENTER> to CONT, (J)UMP or (Q)UIT ] CONT

TACKER:  avoyager (Avo Yager)
SUBJECT: .. Geothermal
DATE:    26-Feb-06 18:38:10
HOST:    sverige

"Why would tapping geothermal heat affect the earth's mass?"

I said 'resources'; I did no say 'heat'; as you have observed, the
distinction makes a difference. My introduction of this bulletin was to, in
part, guide attention toward "the law of unintended consequences".

"Also, reducing the mass of the earth in some magical way would not change its orbit."

Are you sure of that? Isn't orbit a function of gravity, and gravity a
function of mass?


[OK]
<none> Command:
% Type (H)ELP for Commands.
<none> Command:
% Type (H)ELP for Commands.
<none> Command: QUIT