8-Feb-2011 09:35:01-PST,1701;000000000000

8-Feb-2011 09:35:01-PST,1701;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:31:55 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from Panda.COM ([206.124.149.114]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:31:40 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 09:31:33 -0800
X-MailFrom: [email protected]
From: "Dawson, Clive" <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 03:19 -0600
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: Kenneth H. Olsen (1926 - 2011)
X-ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:31:22 -0800 (PST)
X-ReSent-From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-Subject: Kenneth H. Olsen (1926 - 2011)
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
content-type: text/plain
ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:31:45 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Kenneth H. Olsen (1926 - 2011)
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

For those of you who haven't heard, Ken Olsen has died.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/technology/business-computing/08olsen.html?_r=2&emc=eta1

http://www.decconnection.org/index.html

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/020711-kenneth-olsen-dec-obit.html?hpg1=bn

etc...

R.I.P.

--Clive Dawson

8-Feb-2011 10:49:08-PST,2651;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:46:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail.math.utah.edu ([155.101.98.135]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:49:49 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (psi.math.utah.edu [155.101.96.19])
by mail.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p18HnfRB022097;
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:49:42 -0700 (MST)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p18Hnfpu018085;
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:49:41 -0700 (MST)
X-Received: (from beebe@localhost)
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p18HnfMV018084;
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:49:41 -0700 (MST)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:49:41 -0700 (MST)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
X-US-Mail: "Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB, University of Utah, 155 S
1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA"
X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254
X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148
X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe
Subject: [tops-20] Ken Olsen stories
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (mail.math.utah.edu [155.101.98.135]); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 10:49:42 -0700 (MST)
ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:45:59 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: [tops-20] Ken Olsen stories
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

These stories appeared today:

Digital Equipment Corp. co-founder Ken Olsen dies at age 84
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9208601/Digital_Equipment_Corp._co_founder_Ken_Olsen_dies_at_age_84
http://blogs.computerworld.com/17781/dec_co_founder_ken_olsen_dies_at_84?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: [email protected] -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected] [email protected] -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8-Feb-2011 10:52:02-PST,3077;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:46:21 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail.math.utah.edu ([155.101.98.135]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:01:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (psi.math.utah.edu [155.101.96.19])
by mail.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p18I1AVS023188;
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:01:10 -0700 (MST)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p18I1AOr018143;
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:01:10 -0700 (MST)
X-Received: (from beebe@localhost)
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p18I1AEG018142;
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:01:10 -0700 (MST)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:01:10 -0700 (MST)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
X-US-Mail: "Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB, University of Utah, 155 S
1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA"
X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254
X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148
X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe
Subject: [tops-20] more Ken Olsen stories
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (mail.math.utah.edu [155.101.98.135]); Tue, 08 Feb 2011 11:01:10 -0700 (MST)
ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:46:13 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: [tops-20] more Ken Olsen stories
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Here are two more stories, and a comment:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/02/08/computer_pioneer_ken_olsen_dies/

http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2011/02/07/daily16-Ken-Olsen-co-founder-of-DEC-died-at-84.html

>> ...
>> Patrick Renouvel <[email protected]> on the simh list:
>>
>> He came to visit us in France in the middle of the Eighties.
>>
>> When the guardian at the entry asked him what was his badge number.
>>
>> He answered in French UN (One)
>>
>> In French it can be understood as HEIN (means I didn't understand)
>>
>> So the poor guardian repeated several times the question before
>> understanding what happened.
>> ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: [email protected] -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected] [email protected] -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8-Feb-2011 15:22:39-PST,4366;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:19:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail-fx0-f47.google.com ([209.85.161.47]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:49:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17so6666810fxm.34
for <[email protected]>; Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:49:33 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to
:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type
:content-transfer-encoding;
bh=heoMJNNy+QjNxY5fkn+1EJ8lAuWGDMhKaf6ukZ2RsOg=;
b=ofPwi6Gn2mSSd4OvlMlZ3optkZEd7eMhCjMY//W/Kl36UtopzdewQCiEXOW8EJE2yo
fQ8CcVeQkQA5CX4GC69h73FARZTsnDz1aTPgW8zoopCsTK3wncZzOkWyTAYI4dRdS7El
nAKltPIgYeDbvG/Nt9KMrS3495RiAuVs8wk7g=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject
:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
b=R7pRKzBnwFR9Q4Mcyk8FPEnvdiM4q+T+oNeofPmWJKxNQVy1w3HeuA04q/t1nNZ4iG
tlii+b/z0DtAYWUDxmRsjUoO/CQ0PtJJPPC6K6y9ru4QZCHyEC+Oh+MExLHUTd9SGr0R
1SDiZoju+U97gexHTywo6TRjr1W3dg/WpuxAA=
X-Received: by 10.223.96.78 with SMTP id g14mr9442699fan.15.1297201772322;
Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:49:32 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from [193.182.63.250] (c-8a3f72d5.310-89-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se [213.114.63.138])
by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n2sm1956384fam.28.2011.02.08.13.49.29
(version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:49:30 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 22:48:53 +0100
From: Lars Persson <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
CC: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [tops-20] more Ken Olsen stories
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:19:25 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: [tops-20] more Ken Olsen stories
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Ken was ultimately the reason how I came to live my life and build my
career.
I gather that most participants of this list can agree.
We lost an extraordinary creator who helped bring change of an unforseen
magnitude.
/Lars

Nelson H. F. Beebe skrev 2011-02-08 19:01:
> Here are two more stories, and a comment:
>
> http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/02/08/computer_pioneer_ken_olsen_dies/
>
> http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2011/02/07/daily16-Ken-Olsen-co-founder-of-DEC-died-at-84.html
>
>>> ...
>>> Patrick Renouvel<[email protected]> on the simh list:
>>>
>>> He came to visit us in France in the middle of the Eighties.
>>>
>>> When the guardian at the entry asked him what was his badge number.
>>>
>>> He answered in French UN (One)
>>>
>>> In French it can be understood as HEIN (means I didn't understand)
>>>
>>> So the poor guardian repeated several times the question before
>>> understanding what happened.
>>> ...
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
> - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: [email protected] -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected] [email protected] -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

10-Feb-2011 11:37:20-PST,9258;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:34:02 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail.math.utah.edu ([155.101.98.135]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:17:39 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (psi.math.utah.edu [155.101.96.19])
by mail.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p1AJHWJJ016306;
Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:17:32 -0700 (MST)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p1AJHWWi013234;
Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:17:32 -0700 (MST)
X-Received: (from beebe@localhost)
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p1AJHW9o013233;
Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:17:32 -0700 (MST)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:17:32 -0700 (MST)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
X-US-Mail: "Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB, University of Utah, 155 S
1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA"
X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254
X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148
X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe
Subject: [tops-20] yet more on Ken Olsen
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (mail.math.utah.edu [155.101.98.135]); Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:17:32 -0700 (MST)
ReSent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:33:52 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: [tops-20] yet more on Ken Olsen
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Here are two more Ken Olsen URLs:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/17787/thanks_for_the_memories_mr_olsen?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/technology/business-computing/08olsen.html?_r=1&ref=obituaries

Because the New York Times quickly hides its article content, here is
a copy of the second URL contents for our list records, with Unicode
quotes changed to ASCII equivalents:

>> ...
>> Ken Olsen, Who Built DEC Into a Power, Dies at 84
>> By GLENN RIFKIN
>> Published: February 7, 2011
>>
>> Ken Olsen, who helped reshape the computer industry as a founder of
>> the Digital Equipment Corporation, at one time the world's
>> second-largest computer company, died on Sunday. He was 84.
>>
>> His family announced the death but declined to provide further
>> details. He had recently lived with a daughter in Indiana and had been
>> a longtime resident of Lincoln, Mass.
>>
>> Mr. Olsen, who was proclaimed ``America's most successful
>> entrepreneur'' by Fortune magazine in 1986, built Digital on $70,000
>> in seed money, founding it with a partner in 1957 in the small Boston
>> suburb of Maynard, Mass. With Mr. Olsen as its chief executive, it
>> grew to employ more than 120,000 people at operations in more than 95
>> countries, surpassed in size only by I.B.M.
>>
>> At its peak, in the late 1980s, Digital had $14 billion in sales and
>> ranked among the most profitable companies in the nation.
>>
>> But its fortunes soon declined after Digital began missing out on some
>> critical market shifts, particularly toward the personal
>> computer. Mr. Olsen was criticized as autocratic and resistant to new
>> trends. ``The personal computer will fall flat on its face in
>> business,'' he said at one point. And in July 1992, the company's
>> board forced him to resign.
>>
>> Six years later, Digital, or DEC, as the company was known, was
>> acquired by the Compaq Computer Corporation for $9.6 billion.
>>
>> But for 35 years the enigmatic Mr. Olsen oversaw an expanding
>> technology giant that produced some of the computer industry's
>> breakthrough ideas.
>>
>> In a tribute to him in 2006, Bill Gates, the Microsoft co-founder,
>> called Mr. Olsen ``one of the true pioneers of computing,'' adding,
>> ``He was also a major influence on my life.''
>>
>> Mr. Gates traced his interest in software to his first use of a DEC
>> computer as a 13-year-old. He and Microsoft's other founder, Paul
>> Allen, created their first personal computer software on a DEC PDP-10
>> computer.
>>
>> In the 1960s, Digital built small, powerful and elegantly designed
>> ``minicomputers,'' which formed the basis of a lucrative new segment
>> of the computer marketplace. Though hardly ``mini'' by today's
>> standards, the computer became a favorite alternative to the giant,
>> multimillion-dollar mainframe computers sold by I.B.M. to large
>> corporate customers. The minicomputer found a market in research
>> laboratories, engineering companies and other professions requiring
>> heavy computer use.
>>
>> In time, several minicomputer companies sprang up around Digital and
>> thrived, forming the foundation of the Route 128 technology corridor
>> near Boston.
>>
>> Digital also spawned a generation of computing talent, lured by an
>> open corporate culture that fostered a free flow of ideas. A
>> frequently rumpled outdoorsman who preferred flannel shirts to
>> business suits, Mr. Olsen, a brawny man with piercing blue eyes,
>> shunned publicity and ran the company as a large, sometimes
>> contentious family.
>>
>> Many within the industry assumed that Digital, with its stellar
>> engineering staff, would be the logical company to usher in the age of
>> personal computers, but Mr. Olsen was openly skeptical of the desktop
>> machines. He thought of them as ``toys'' used for playing video games.
>>
>> Still, most people in the industry say Mr. Olsen's legacy is
>> secure. ``Ken Olsen is the father of the second generation of
>> computing,'' said George Colony, who is chief executive of Forrester
>> Research and a longtime industry watcher, ``and that makes him one of
>> the major figures in the history of this business.''
>>
>> Kenneth Harry Olsen was born in Bridgeport, Conn., on Feb. 20, 1926,
>> and grew up with his three siblings in nearby Stratford. His parents,
>> Oswald and Elizabeth Svea Olsen, were children of Norwegian
>> immigrants.
>>
>> Mr. Olsen and his younger brother Stan lived their passion for
>> electronics in the basement of their Stratford home, inventing gadgets
>> and repairing broken radios. After a stint in the Navy at the end of
>> World War II, Mr. Olsen headed to the Massachusetts Institute of
>> Technology, where he received bachelor's and master's degrees in
>> electrical engineering. He took a job at M.I.T.'s new Lincoln
>> Laboratory in 1950 and worked under Jay Forrester, who was doing
>> pioneering work in the nascent days of interactive computing.
>>
>> In 1957, itching to leave academia, Mr. Olsen, then 31, recruited a
>> Lincoln Lab colleague, Harlan Anderson, to help him start a
>> company. For financing they turned to Georges F. Doriot, a renowned
>> Harvard Business School professor and venture capitalist. According to
>> Mr. Colony, Digital became the first successful venture-backed company
>> in the computer industry. Mr. Anderson left the company shortly
>> afterward, leaving Mr. Olsen to put his stamp on it for more than
>> three decades.
>>
>> In Digital's often confusing management structure, Mr. Olsen was the
>> dominant figure who hired smart people, gave them responsibility and
>> expected them ``to perform as adults,'' said Edgar Schein, who taught
>> organizational behavior at M.I.T. and consulted with Mr. Olsen for 25
>> years. ``Lo and behold,'' he said, ``they performed magnificently.''
>>
>> One crucial employee was Gordon Bell, a DEC vice president and the
>> technical brains behind many of Digital's most successful
>> machines. ``All the alumni think of Digital fondly and remember it as
>> a great place to work,'' said Mr. Bell, who went on to become a
>> principal researcher at Microsoft.
>>
>> After he left Digital, Mr. Olsen began another start-up, Advanced
>> Modular Solutions, but it eventually failed. In retirement, he helped
>> found the Ken Olsen Science Center at Gordon College, a Christian
>> school in Wenham, Mass., where an archive of his papers and Digital's
>> history is housed. His family announced his death through the college.
>>
>> Mr. Olsen's wife of 59 years, Eeva-Liisa Aulikki Olsen, died in March
>> 2009. A son, Glenn, also died. Mr. Olsen's survivors include a
>> daughter, Ava Memmen, another son, James; his brother Stan; and five
>> grandchildren.
>> ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: [email protected] -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected] [email protected] -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7-Mar-2011 09:04:56-PST,1323;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:01:43 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TWENEX.ORG ([192.94.73.36]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 07:46:44 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 05:51:06 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <[email protected]>
Subject: New member greeting
To: [email protected]
cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 09:01:31 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: New member greeting
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!

Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about the OS
that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer world today.
Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying to figure
out what TOPS-20 is about.

Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees are
still kicking around.

Long Live TOPS-20!

--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
[email protected]
-------

8-Mar-2011 15:06:51-PST,2447;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 15:03:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.56]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:42:29 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: from omta19.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.76])
by qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id GlRL1g00C1eYJf8A6liQmn; Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:42:24 +0000
X-Received: from [10.0.1.3] ([24.62.230.208])
by omta19.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id GliE1g0194WRhhk01liHDb; Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:42:23 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240803c99c52bea099@[10.0.1.3]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 16:42:13 -0500
To: David Meyer <[email protected]>, [email protected]
From: P&G Wexelblat <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: New member greeting
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ReSent-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 15:03:20 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: New member greeting
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

At 5:51 AM -0800 3/7/11, David Meyer wrote:
>Greetings, TOPS-20 fans!
>
>Just a wannabe programmer from Japan who's long been curious about the OS
>that incubated so many of the concepts that power the computer world today.
>Finally availing myself of the public system at twenex.org trying to figure
>out what TOPS-20 is about.
>
>Thought I'd sign up for the mailing list and see how many devotees are
>still kicking around.
>
>Long Live TOPS-20!
>
>--
>David Meyer
>Takarazuka, Japan
>[email protected]
>-------

Hi,

I really have nothing to do with these systems these days, but I was at BBN when TENEX was written, (I made a tiny contribution to the ARPAnet), and did TOPS-10 OS work whilst at DEC ('70's and 80's). A teensie bit of my tops-10 IPCF code found its way into TOPS-20, and I contributed to "the Compatibility Package" while at BBN (Tenex/Tops-20)

But a piece of me still has me subscribing to this list :)

Welcome
--
--
...wex (10-3610) (PMW on the monitor listings)

17-Mar-2011 11:54:54-PDT,5582;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:52:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from idcmail-mo2no.shaw.ca ([64.59.134.9]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from pd5ml3no-ssvc.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.153.148])
by pd6mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2011 12:42:37 -0600
X-Cloudmark-SP-Filtered: true
X-Cloudmark-SP-Result: v=1.1 cv=438u7JerM8SAZO5jfpsv/sfhl3k9Q7UPf0jDjia3Q2Y= c=1 sm=1
a=J0YPOpOQ6v8A:10 a=BLceEmwcHowA:10 a=Sgr0FINzwLl7YO1dc5K1gA==:17
a=XxHE_adZAAAA:8 a=2hr9T00dqg-k8FxF5BYA:9 a=xpClnAv4bsIrTA8R5w2vL5MaM50A:4
a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=cDunCUrOc9wA:10 a=y3G3EURbhN6va5lD:21
a=fZS_PZxi1_D-ARSt:21 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8
a=O-x5nwzqNAYDXiz6_gkA:9 a=68vMb02h98Y7Bz3hjpsA:7
a=Jv17Eq6oJ39flIs2-OpJc9rk3RUA:4 a=HpAAvcLHHh0Zw7uRqdWCyQ==:117
X-Received: from unknown (HELO ASUSServer) ([68.148.229.18])
by pd5ml3no-dmz.prod.shaw.ca with ESMTP; 17 Mar 2011 12:42:36 -0600
Reply-To: <[email protected]>
From: "3web Email" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: DEC manuals, etc.
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:42:34 -0600
Message-ID: <000f01cbe4d3$15025d60$3f071820$@net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBE4A0.CA67ED60"
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0
Thread-Index: Acvk0xSlGV3aX7TrRcqEaIx2yuqWuQ==
Content-Language: en-us
ReSent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: DEC manuals, etc.
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBE4A0.CA67ED60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I have a number of PDP-11 software manuals, processor manuals, a few books &
even a few software mag tapes from when I had worked at Digital Equipment. I
also have a number of processor manuals & some schematics for DEC System 10
& 20. Would you be interested in them or know someone who would like them?

Gerry Mildenberger

[email protected]

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBE4A0.CA67ED60
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 =
(filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I have a number of PDP-11 software manuals, processor =
manuals, a few books & even a few software mag tapes from when I had =
worked at Digital Equipment. </span>I also have a number of processor =
manuals & some schematics for DEC System 10 & 20. Would you be =
interested in them or know someone who would like them?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Gerry =
Mildenberger<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> =
</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CBE4A0.CA67ED60--

17-Mar-2011 21:07:42-PDT,3340;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:06:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:04:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail.math.utah.edu ([155.101.98.135]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:19:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (psi.math.utah.edu [155.101.96.19])
by mail.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p2I1Jahl006386;
Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:19:36 -0600 (MDT)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p2I1Jaxv001959;
Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:19:36 -0600 (MDT)
X-Received: (from beebe@localhost)
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p2I1JaUl001958;
Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:19:36 -0600 (MDT)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:19:36 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
X-US-Mail: "Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB, University of Utah, 155 S
1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA"
X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254
X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148
X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe
Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
In-Reply-To: <000f01cbe4d3$15025d60$3f071820$@net>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0 (mail.math.utah.edu [155.101.98.135]); Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:19:36 -0600 (MDT)
X-ReSent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-ReSent-From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
ReSent-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Gerry Mildenberger <[email protected]> asks about old DEC manuals
that he possesses.

I strongly suggested getting them scanned into searchable PDFs,
and contributing them to bitsavers.org, which has a huge archive
of computer manuals. Then everyone can have the benefit, and
bitsavers.org can deal with the issue of copyright permissions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: [email protected] -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected] [email protected] -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18-Mar-2011 11:07:18-PDT,8320;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:05:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:43:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail-qw0-f47.google.com ([209.85.216.47]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:09:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5so3000570qwh.34
for <[email protected]>; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
bh=5zwRgkJQ+5YsjPYoCnH9zNR8SAfeXrH4mwZeqcT59xc=;
b=Rxfyd2oOedHZi2ZeqR0ZF+yfltoZGzgJtnziadF3DNcp4K4xl6xBDPQEqn4YjVGouj
MRVphNezRcI/b19t/D4CiXMwyOrahlqXnuiSRba5XSZU44YzbpAenDYpAMSnqkusn+8O
r5cekkb6IwiK7zrWmy78GyLwU9CfI3nmMZ3PI=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
:cc:content-type;
b=d75fGhAhgG/DPRJS1leoMdTCPOOsPeMlUQtGo71uGvVRT/OJRj8C5FplMQW52h3qZi
bNDgH/8OKVOV840siotnSucczaqHY/iPjX7tZVH8PA4h/31Q0mqSd61GxX/siE/fLqql
VrSvBSTOSmMKxHoZK+0MaBDgiXqrlyGvZYv0I=
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.229.8.195 with SMTP id i3mr690207qci.26.1300435788150; Fri, 18
Mar 2011 01:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.229.187.73 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 01:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <000f01cbe4d3$15025d60$3f071820$@net>
<[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:48 +0100
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
From: Lars Persson <[email protected]>
To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e649872e34b680049ebd4d17
X-ReSent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:43:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-ReSent-From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
ReSent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

--0016e649872e34b680049ebd4d17
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I wish I could do the same with my collection of DEC PDP11-s and VAXen. and
other DEC hardware.

They take up to much room and have to go soon.

I would hate to see these historically machines go but lack of space is lack
of space.
Nobody here in Scandinavia has any interest or ability to take care of them.

I too have quite a lot of books, drawings, manuals et cetera. To scan one or
two manuals
is ONE thing but to scan a library? I just do not have that ammount of time.

I am sure that others out there have the same problem, and I wish that we
could join forces
and twist arms and pull strings to have these grandparents of modern
computing preserved
somehow.

Oh well. A guy can dream..

/Lars

P.s. What KIND of stuff, I hear you ask - Well, mainly Q-bus but some
UNI-bus stuff is in there
too. VT100-s. VT55 (the one with the Saline printer), VT220, VT320 PDT stuff
AND SO ON.
Lots of spare cards too.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe <[email protected]>wrote:

> Gerry Mildenberger <[email protected]> asks about old DEC manuals
> that he possesses.
>
> I strongly suggested getting them scanned into searchable PDFs,
> and contributing them to bitsavers.org, which has a huge archive
> of computer manuals. Then everyone can have the benefit, and
> bitsavers.org can deal with the issue of copyright permissions.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254
> -
> - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148
> -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail:
> [email protected] -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected]
> [email protected] -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL:
> http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

--0016e649872e34b680049ebd4d17
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wish I could do the same with my collection of DEC PDP11-s and VAXen. and=
<br>other DEC hardware.<br><br>They take up to much room and have to go soo=
n.<br><br>I would hate to see these historically machines go but lack of sp=
ace is lack of space.<br>
Nobody here in Scandinavia has any interest or ability to take care of them=
<br><br>I too have quite a lot of books, drawings, manuals et cetera. To s=
can one or two manuals <br>is ONE thing but to scan a library? I just do no=
t have that ammount of time.<br>
<br>I am sure that others out there have the same problem, and I wish that =
we could join forces<br>and twist arms and pull strings to have these grand=
parents of modern computing preserved <br>somehow.<br><br>Oh well. A guy ca=
n dream..<br>
<br>/Lars<br><br>P.s. What KIND of stuff, I hear you ask - Well, mainly Q-b=
us but some UNI-bus stuff is in there <br>too. VT100-s. VT55 (the one with =
the Saline printer), VT220, VT320 PDT stuff AND SO ON.<br>Lots of spare car=
ds too.<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Nelson H. F=
Beebe <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">beebe@=
math.utah.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204)=
; padding-left: 1ex;">
Gerry Mildenberger <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]=
</a>> asks about old DEC manuals<br>
that he possesses.<br>
<br>
I strongly suggested getting them scanned into searchable PDFs,<br>
and contributing them to <a href=3D"http://bitsavers.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>bitsavers.org</a>, which has a huge archive<br>
of computer manuals. =C2=A0Then everyone can have the benefit, and<br>
<a href=3D"http://bitsavers.org" target=3D"_blank">bitsavers.org</a> can de=
al with the issue of copyright permissions.<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">- Nelson H. F. Beebe =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tel: <a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20801%205=
81%205254">+1 801 581 5254</a> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-<br>
- University of Utah =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0FAX: <a href=3D"tel:%2B1%20801%20581%204148">+1 801 581 41=
48</a> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-<br>
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet e-mail: <a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> =C2=A0-<br>
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> -<br>
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA =C2=A0 =C2=A0URL: <a href=3D"http://ww=
w.math.utah.edu/%7Ebeebe/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.math.utah.edu/~beeb=
e/</a> -<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>

--0016e649872e34b680049ebd4d17--

18-Mar-2011 13:42:06-PDT,3035;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 13:40:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5])
by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACBC38E48;
Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662)
id AC7F724254; Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: Lars Persson <[email protected]>
CC: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
(message from Lars Persson on Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:48 +0100)
Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
References: <000f01cbe4d3$15025d60$3f071820$@net>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT)
ReSent-Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: DEC manuals, etc.
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:09:48 +0100
> From: Lars Persson <[email protected]>

> I too have quite a lot of books, drawings, manuals et cetera. To scan one or
> two manuals is ONE thing but to scan a library? I just do not have that
> ammount of time.

> I am sure that others out there have the same problem, and I wish that we
> could join forces and twist arms and pull strings to have these grandparents
> of modern computing preserved somehow.

> Oh well. A guy can dream..

Al Kossow does a wonderful job with the Bitsavers.org archives, but there is,
as you note yourself, only so much time in one person's life. There are others
who are also scanning documents for Bitsavers, and one of them might be willing
to take on your collection.

As for older hardware, the Computer History Museum (where Al works) has a huge
breadth to their collection, but like most museums cannot house more than one
or two of any particular type of system, and cannot in general run the ones
they have.

Living Computer Museum, where I work, does restore systems to running condition
and show them off under power, both in person and where practicable on-line.
(It does not make sense to put a PDP-7 running a foreground/background OS with
2 terminal lines on the 'Net, or we would.) Note that I am not soliciting
anything here, simply pointing out that there are places that *are* preserving
the grandsystems.

Rich Alderson

9-Apr-2011 12:02:58-PDT,1341;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
ReSent-Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Friends -

In just 3 years, it will be time to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the
PDP-10. We ought to do something about it, shouldn't we?

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

12-Apr-2011 16:29:59-PDT,2439;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:15:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5])
by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69161F088
for <[email protected]>; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:15:46 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662)
id C410C24229; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:15:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
(message from Mark Crispin on Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:00:55 -0700 (PDT))
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
References: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:15:46 -0400 (EDT)
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>

> In just 3 years, it will be time to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the
> PDP-10. We ought to do something about it, shouldn't we?

I second the motion. If people would really like to do something, I believe
that I may be able to provide a venue. A show of interest would support any
argument I might make on my own.

Spread the word. Have people get in touch with me to express interest. Let's
see what we can do!

Thanks,
Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Senior Curator
Vulcan, Inc. Living Computer Museum
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98104 Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:[email protected] mailto:[email protected]
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell

12-Apr-2011 16:44:24-PDT,1944;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:42:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:32:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:42:44 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Rich Alderson wrote:
> I second the motion. If people would really like to do something, I believe
> that I may be able to provide a venue. A show of interest would support any
> argument I might make on my own.

Well, we have at least two people who are interested. I wonder if it is
know what day the PDP-6 was first shipped and/or announced?

> Spread the word. Have people get in touch with me to express interest.
> Let's see what we can do!

Put it on FB as an event.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

13-Apr-2011 07:56:47-PDT,2961;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:55:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from velox.its.uu.se ([130.238.7.74]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at uu.se
X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 velox.its.uu.se 0C5CD3476C
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=uu.se; s=centralsmtp;
t=1302678116; [email protected];
bh=r3LiuUr9s5iwP+zTkLA++O3lap592b3KrVxs3sGqI8U=;
h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:
In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;
b=GTxqRPVhEFPYn0zRr1oWlOiQe9iBN5eKmddDCGAYykSBXVafAaj4neyStKV4L8Oae
zx4fuaI8GHWSvb9lNr+yXCUAUUxW41BiKNEwkF5tnsVGtqleaRS8X0iGpzqPH4DC+Y
0z6R9qUkojx5rVwta3yp4OABMgAOY40E4AlGHoRw=
X-Received: from buzz.it.uu.se (buzz.it.uu.se [130.238.11.62])
(using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by velox.its.uu.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C5CD3476C;
Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:01:55 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:02:06 +0200
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
CC: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 2011-04-13 01.15, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Mark Crispin<[email protected]>
>
>> In just 3 years, it will be time to celebrate the 50th anniversary of =
the
>> PDP-10. We ought to do something about it, shouldn't we?
>
> I second the motion. If people would really like to do something, I be=
lieve
> that I may be able to provide a venue. A show of interest would suppor=
t any
> argument I might make on my own.
>
> Spread the word. Have people get in touch with me to express interest.=
Let's
> see what we can do!

It would be fun, of course, but it might happen too far away for me. :-)=20
Maybe an electronic version of the celebration could be arranged=20
(video/audio links)?

-- Bj=F6rn

13-Apr-2011 10:26:18-PDT,4791;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TX2EHSOBE001.bigfish.com ([65.55.88.11]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from mail84-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.243) by
TX2EHSOBE001.bigfish.com (10.9.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server id
14.1.225.8; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:19:14 +0000
X-Received: from mail84-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by
mail84-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9215CE18510; Wed, 13 Apr
2011 17:19:14 +0000 (UTC)
X-SpamScore: -19
X-BigFish: VPS-19(zz9371O1521M542M98dKzz1202hzz8275bhz32i668h839h61h)
X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: KIP:(null);UIP:(null);IPVD:NLI;H:ausb3twp01.amd.com;RD:none;EFVD:NLI
X-Received: from mail84-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail84-tx2
(MessageSwitch) id 1302715154329372_9907; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:19:14 +0000
(UTC)
X-Received: from TX2EHSMHS020.bigfish.com (unknown [10.9.14.240]) by
mail84-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1D010A0050; Wed, 13 Apr 2011
17:19:14 +0000 (UTC)
X-Received: from ausb3twp01.amd.com (163.181.249.108) by
TX2EHSMHS020.bigfish.com (10.9.99.120) with Microsoft SMTP Server id
14.1.225.8; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:19:14 +0000
X-WSS-ID: 0LJLPFY-01-7SY-02
X-M-MSG:
X-Received: from sausexedgep02.amd.com (sausexedgep02-ext.amd.com
[163.181.249.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No
client certificate requested) by ausb3twp01.amd.com (Axway MailGate 3.8.1)
with ESMTP id 2ED271028235; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:19:09 -0500 (CDT)
X-Received: from sausexhtp01.amd.com (163.181.3.165) by sausexedgep02.amd.com
(163.181.36.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.106.1; Wed, 13 Apr
2011 12:19:55 -0500
X-Received: from sausexmbp02.amd.com ([163.181.3.191]) by sausexhtp01.amd.com
([163.181.3.165]) with mapi; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:19:11 -0500
From: "Dawson, Clive" <[email protected]>
To: 'Mark Crispin' <[email protected]>
CC: 'TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers' <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:19:10 -0500
Subject: RE: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
Thread-Topic: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
Thread-Index: Acv5a9Qq0cAMPK6gRnybkgBwc7tzCQAkXSig
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
acceptlanguage: en-US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Return-Path: [email protected]
X-OriginatorOrg: amd.com
ReSent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: RE: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Yes, a fine idea. One possible venue I would toss out for consideration wo=
uld be the Computer History Museum in Mountain View. They hosted the DECWo=
rld 2001 reunion at Moffett Field which went off very well, and they might =
be willing to sponsor (or at least host) this event.

Of course we still haven't really forgiven them for "misplacing" the Stanfo=
rd PDP-6, which was donated to them following the 36-Bit 20th Anniversary c=
elebration at DECUS in 1984, but 30 more years is probably too long to hold=
a grudge... :-)

Clive Dawson

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf =
Of Mark Crispin
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:33 PM
To: Rich Alderson
Cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Rich Alderson wrote:
> I second the motion. If people would really like to do something, I beli=
eve
> that I may be able to provide a venue. A show of interest would support =
any
> argument I might make on my own.

Well, we have at least two people who are interested. I wonder if it is=20
know what day the PDP-6 was first shipped and/or announced?

> Spread the word. Have people get in touch with me to express interest.=20
> Let's see what we can do!

Put it on FB as an event.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

13-Apr-2011 12:49:15-PDT,2253;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:42:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Dawson, Clive" <[email protected]>
cc: 'TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers' <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: RE: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Dawson, Clive wrote:
> Yes, a fine idea. One possible venue I would toss out for consideration
> would be the Computer History Museum in Mountain View.

I would prefer if the venue were Paul Allen's museum here in the Pacific
Northwest. I've become quite allergic to the Land Of Fruits And Nuts.

> Of course we still haven't really forgiven them for "misplacing" the
> Stanford PDP-6, which was donated to them following the 36-Bit 20th
> Anniversary celebration at DECUS in 1984, but 30 more years is
> probably too long to hold a grudge... :-)

I heard that it was actually Digital, not the museum, that destroyed that
PDP-6. A true crime.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

13-Apr-2011 22:42:57-PDT,2824;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:41:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5])
by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B201F083
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:15:26 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662)
id CD21424257; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:15:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message
from Mark Crispin on Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:32:34 -0700 (PDT))
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:15:25 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:41:11 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Hi, everyone!

As Mark suggested, I've put an event announcement on my Facebook page,
simply asking that those who might attend RSVP. It's 3 years out, so
there's no commitment entailed in accepting--this will just give us a
gauge of the interest.

The specific date I used in the announcement, 14 March 2014, is 50
years from the cover date of the issue of _Business Week_ in which
the PDP-6 was announced. I thought that appropriate as a target,
although we might shoot for a date in June, which is when the first
customer ship took place.

I'll see what kind of interest there is in the next couple of months,
and we'll go from there.

Bj=F6rn has a good point about the potential difficulty for those
outside North America to attend. We should probably think in terms
of celebrations in multiple sites--that's one of the things we can
plan for if it looks like there's sufficient interest in the whole
idea.

I'll also announce this on alt.sys.pdp10, since there are Tops-10
folks who hang out there who would not see this. (I've already heard
from one gentleman to whom a list member forwarded my previous note!)

Thanks,
Rich

18-Apr-2011 10:24:14-PDT,3972;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:22:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail-iy0-f175.google.com ([209.85.210.175]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by iye7 with SMTP id 7so5669736iye.34
for <[email protected]>; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
bh=/GxSTnAa6sDfbvewNxZbaDr8W+K/xP8oEpgSNMpbsoY=;
b=RUTGdeFFWY0BXSFR+9jmCFki7JAz1QdhXT/SRCf6Mjq0EtNXXEzcNCShvCRwHoGXh4
KV94/hMwwvXwiUfg5yKu6abE/RYZkdcDwNKyC+8fiDpLbPFI2v6T/dwzSzikfzpUR7r2
LAzabfOaIVHOeHS4q73/QhETBbNp0UXeK3R8Y=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
b=LGC372iFB9HN7GgjmukaGpy5DloMuwOutoWQPoJplIdYTUGE0LZPMFiGRVK9kKzD4N
EBJAbL5csotPA5TxImqi6SGyiAIUkjpSO6QfKAPyZbGExukbZ2B+GFLdv54sRb6JygQi
MmX0pSQP51aTQNA354Yxr7/9UjJypHKHGBIv4=
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.42.230.67 with SMTP id jl3mr1065813icb.512.1303144286054; Mon,
18 Apr 2011 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.42.144.134 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:31:26 -0400
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
From: Ken Rossman <[email protected]>
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Rich,

Which "Rich Alderson" are you on Facebook? There's a bunch. :-)

I'd love to attend whatever event(s) may come... not so sure how able I wi=
ll be
to do this, but I'd love to be able to stay in the loop.

IF such an event does materialize, it should be webcast, so anyone who can'=
t
really attend, can attend. :-)

Ken Rossman
[email protected] (formerly "[email protected])

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Mark Crispin <[email protected]> wrot=
e:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Dawson, Clive wrote:
>> Yes, a fine idea. =A0One possible venue I would toss out for considerati=
on would be the Computer History Museum in Mountain View.
>
> I would prefer if the venue were Paul Allen's museum here in the Pacific =
Northwest. =A0I've become quite allergic to the Land Of Fruits And Nuts.
>
>> Of course we still haven't really forgiven them for "misplacing" the Sta=
nford PDP-6, which was donated to them following the 36-Bit 20th Anniversar=
y celebration at DECUS in 1984, but 30 more years is probably too long to h=
old a grudge... =A0:-)
>
> I heard that it was actually Digital, not the museum, that destroyed that=
PDP-6. =A0A true crime.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>
>
>

30-Apr-2011 10:36:24-PDT,1420;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 10:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TWENEX.ORG ([192.94.73.36]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 30 Apr 2011 02:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 07:07:11 -0800 (PDT)
From: David Meyer <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 10:33:32 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 50th anniversary party
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Like Bjorn, I'm geographically remote from the post likely party venues. I'd
love to participate if the party coincides with a business trip, but it's
hard to predict my schedule so far in the future.

I would also be glad to participate in any online/virtual events, though
surely there is a more appropriate venue than Facebook.

What about some kind of collaborative development or other project with the
aim of promoting appreciation and use of the PDP-10 (real or simulated)?

--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
[email protected]
-------

17-May-2011 10:00:56-PDT,1263;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 09:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 09:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 09:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: 38 years ago today...
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

At 2PM EDT on 17 May 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled Project
Jupiter.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

17-May-2011 10:52:00-PDT,2807;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from ausc60pc101.us.dell.com ([143.166.85.206]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Loopcount0: from 10.152.240.141
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-23-929564884
From: John Francini <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 13:44:39 -0400
Cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
X-Return-Path: [email protected]
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2011 17:44:35.0518 (UTC) FILETIME=[16294DE0:01CC14BA]
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

--Apple-Mail-23-929564884
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii

er, um, that would be 28 years, Mark.

My wife would be very surprised (we got married in 1983) to know it was =
38 years and not 28...

john

On 17 May 2011, at 12:58, Mark Crispin wrote:

> At 2PM EDT on 17 May 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled =
Project Jupiter.
>=20
> -- Mark --
>=20
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>=20

--Apple-Mail-23-929564884
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii

<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">er, um, that would be <b>28 </b>years, Mark.<div><br></div><div>My wife would be very surprised (we got married in 1983) to know it was 38 years and not 28...</div><div><br></div><div>john</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 17 May 2011, at 12:58, Mark Crispin wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>At 2PM EDT on 17 May 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled Project Jupiter.<br><br>-- Mark --<br><br><a href="http://panda.com/tops-20">http://panda.com/tops-20</a><br>TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>
--Apple-Mail-23-929564884--

17-May-2011 10:53:44-PDT,2684;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:51:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:47:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix, from userid 1009)
id D7EAA31C4172; Tue, 17 May 2011 13:47:13 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on www.pfarrell.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_20
autolearn=no version=3.2.5
X-Received: from [172.16.4.67] (Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67])
by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F0531C416B;
Tue, 17 May 2011 13:47:13 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 13:47:12 -0400
From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-ReSent-From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 5/17/11 12:58 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> At 2PM EDT on 17 May 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled
> Project Jupiter.

I remember that day well, my local DEC sales droid called me up and
tried to convince me it was a great change for the better. I spent the
rest of the afternoon cursing the genealogy of Olsen, Johnson, and Bell.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

17-May-2011 10:55:12-PDT,1537;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: John Francini <[email protected]>
cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:52:26 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Tue, 17 May 2011, John Francini wrote:
> er, um, that would be 28 years, Mark.

Ooops. Even monkey falls from the tree! :)

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

17-May-2011 11:01:58-PDT,4214;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 11:00:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail-qy0-f175.google.com ([209.85.216.175]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:59:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by qyk35 with SMTP id 35so2631877qyk.13
for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
bh=BkW9zEKneL/9Ll75lWvfozQpNZCVVg6jOaCtTYX/YOg=;
b=M2mjB5RZ7RR2OBZqWEEPgvBAFlvB8HRjipSFQMCpFJupyO/LeHIi3ag5MxkhCD2Pgs
Sz0B3Bjfh1C+39HEbAPIbpxKayuXRiNrg1Wbejmqsaabi7TFfKpEKIbwjPTJP4HNrk67
CV96tmpIqNx5vu89yzBz7O9QIcUuubVV8hjYw=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
:cc:content-type;
b=TPECxDa3od5I2+Hp8gV98tWEOVeUYQgLsYglweM4VHJrXqXXtAZZxylNlxLxPhIYA7
rljPYCKs2W5PGtsXQ9zMsWJPRzzRwmNXSyZiziGIsj8n9xMwtRFD9cwYoUK0702x/cTE
Rp8LL4uhlURDBJ5hgh67vWfw8Y8RcPWJKfYNI=
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.229.22.138 with SMTP id n10mr685018qcb.175.1305655143795; Tue,
17 May 2011 10:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.229.73.213 with HTTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.229.73.213 with HTTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 19:59:03 +0200
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
From: Lars Persson <[email protected]>
To: John Francini <[email protected]>
Cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>, Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364eec7e0b8e0f04a37c8778
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

--0016364eec7e0b8e0f04a37c8778
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Thank God!
I was getting a bit worried there for a while.
Still only VINTAGE yet! :)
/Lars
Den 17 maj 2011 19:55 skrev "John Francini" <[email protected]>:
> er, um, that would be 28 years, Mark.
>
> My wife would be very surprised (we got married in 1983) to know it was 38
years and not 28...
>
> john
>
> On 17 May 2011, at 12:58, Mark Crispin wrote:
>
>> At 2PM EDT on 17 May 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled Project
Jupiter.
>>
>> -- Mark --
>>
>> http://panda.com/tops-20
>> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>>
>

--0016364eec7e0b8e0f04a37c8778
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p>Thank God!<br>
I was getting a bit worried there for a while.<br>
Still only VINTAGE yet! :)<br>
/Lars</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">Den 17 maj 2011 19:55 skrev "John Francini&=
quot; <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>:<br =
type=3D"attribution">> er, um, that would be 28 years, Mark.<br>> <br=
>
> My wife would be very surprised (we got married in 1983) to know it wa=
s 38 years and not 28...<br>> <br>> john<br>> <br>> On 17 May 2=
011, at 12:58, Mark Crispin wrote:<br>> <br>>> At 2PM EDT on 17 Ma=
y 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled Project Jupiter.<br>
>> <br>>> -- Mark --<br>>> <br>>> <a href=3D"http:/=
/panda.com/tops-20">http://panda.com/tops-20</a><br>>> TOPS-20: a gre=
at improvement over its successors<br>>> <br>> <br></div>

--0016364eec7e0b8e0f04a37c8778--

17-May-2011 11:36:09-PDT,2735;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 11:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 11:32:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 11:28:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix, from userid 1009)
id D6BB531C41DB; Tue, 17 May 2011 14:28:21 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on www.pfarrell.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00
autolearn=no version=3.2.5
X-Received: from [172.16.4.67] (Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67])
by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FC631C4173;
Tue, 17 May 2011 14:27:51 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:27:50 -0400
From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:32:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-ReSent-From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 5/17/11 1:51 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2011, John Francini wrote:
>> er, um, that would be 28 years, Mark.
>
> Ooops. Even monkey falls from the tree! :)
>

But the KL would have been so far ahead of its time if it was killed in
1973, after a good run of a few years.

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

17-May-2011 15:15:55-PDT,2745;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 15:14:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix, from userid 1009)
id 8654131C4159; Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:59 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on www.pfarrell.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00
autolearn=no version=3.2.5
X-Received: from [172.16.4.67] (Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67])
by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163FE31C4107;
Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:59 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:58 -0400
From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
CC: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:13:59 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> I know you know this, But it was the KC10, not the KL killed in 83.
> The KL was just starting to breath, and it was okay for its time.
Of course, swap read error on my brain. By the time the KC was killed,
the KL was totally out of gas. By 80 or 81, we were begging for a faster
machine. Don't know why we didn't get a Foonly or XKL....

I've heard so many stories and theories about why Project Jupiter. One
was that the design was a bet on pipelining instructions, and the PDP-6
instructions didn't pipeling well. Another was that it was not even
seeing a times 2 improvement over the KL, and it had been promised as a
X4 or better. Still another was that the CAD time was needed to do Vax
architecture, and it was better bang for the CPU hour than the KC

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

17-May-2011 15:17:24-PDT,3173;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 15:14:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173003pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.3]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 14:47:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173003.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Tue, 17 May 2011 16:47:18 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:47:16 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Pat Farrell wrote:
>
>> I know you know this, But it was the KC10, not the KL killed in 83.
>> The KL was just starting to breath, and it was okay for its time.
> Of course, swap read error on my brain. By the time the KC was killed,
> the KL was totally out of gas. By 80 or 81, we were begging for a
> faster machine. Don't know why we didn't get a Foonly or XKL....
>
> I've heard so many stories and theories about why Project Jupiter. One
> was that the design was a bet on pipelining instructions, and the
> PDP-6 instructions didn't pipeling well. Another was that it was not
> even seeing a times 2 improvement over the KL, and it had been
> promised as a X4 or better. Still another was that the CAD time was
> needed to do Vax architecture, and it was better bang for the CPU hour
> than the KC
>
>
All true in part. There were reasons behind each rumor. When I left, the
simulation showed a potential for 25x KL. With some tweaks, we looked
at 50x.
BUT when some real apps were run, the pipe lining did not deliver as the
test sim had had, but ... old stories, the time has passed and the KLH
on fast HW of today gives us the ability to run TOPS on a much more
power efficient box.
Took me years to agree to use a vax or vms.... just a visceral animosity
about the end of KC.

bob

--
We'll see said the zen master

18-May-2011 08:18:16-PDT,2994;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 08:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from s4.parkbits.net ([74.50.51.103]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 00:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from [172.29.2.140] ([94.247.8.10])
(authenticated bits=0)
by s4.parkbits.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p4I7wf6E027306
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 18 May 2011 03:58:44 -0400
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 03:58:59 -0400
From: Dan Murphy <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: p4I7wf6E027306
X-ParkBits-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: [email protected]
ReSent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

My recollection is that, although some instructions were very fast,
others, the byte instructions in particular, were turning out no faster
than the KL. Those instructions were an Achillie's Heel of the
architecture -- too much generality (and consequent overhead) for 99% of
the common uses. We probably should have designed some new instructions
to fix that, but by then, it was too late.

-d

On 5/17/2011 5:34 PM, Pat Farrell wrote:
>
>> I know you know this, But it was the KC10, not the KL killed in 83.
>> The KL was just starting to breath, and it was okay for its time.
> Of course, swap read error on my brain. By the time the KC was killed,
> the KL was totally out of gas. By 80 or 81, we were begging for
> afaster machine. Don't know why we didn't get a Foonly or XKL....
>
> I've heard so many stories and theories about why Project Jupiter. One
> was that the design was a bet on pipelining instructions, and the
> PDP-6 instructions didn't pipeling well. Another was that it was not
> even seeing a times 2 improvement over the KL, and it had been
> promised as a X4 or better. Still another was that the CAD time was
> needed to do Vax architecture, and it was better bang for the CPU hour
> than the KC
>
>

18-May-2011 09:04:07-PDT,2531;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 09:02:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 08:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:35:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Dan Murphy <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 09:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

This surprises me; the need to make the byte instructions fast has been
known since 1964! klh10 goes to considerable effort to in this regard.

These days, I would probably have a table of precomputed shift, masks
(byte and inverse), and increment based on the first 12 bits of the word.
I wouldn't worry about the duplication in OWGBPs either, and just worry
about OWBGPs in crossing a section; and of course increment across a word
normalizes. With precomputed tables, the byte instructions simply become
masking and shift.

On Wed, 18 May 2011, Dan Murphy wrote:
> My recollection is that, although some instructions were very fast,
> others, the byte instructions in particular, were turning out no faster
> than the KL. Those instructions were an Achillie's Heel of the
> architecture -- too much generality (and consequent overhead) for 99% of
> the common uses. We probably should have designed some new instructions
> to fix that, but by then, it was too late.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

18-May-2011 15:41:27-PDT,2387;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 15:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from pc.kahealani.com ([72.235.236.114]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 15:01:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from lt.kahealani.com (lt.kahealani.net [192.168.200.103])
by pc.kahealani.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837B940E1E
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 18 May 2011 12:01:10 -1000 (HST)
X-Received: by lt.kahealani.com (Postfix, from userid 1000)
id F0E74183E8D; Wed, 18 May 2011 06:36:02 -1000 (HST)
From: Angela Kahealani <[email protected]>
Organization: ANGELA KAHEALANI
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:36:02 -1000
User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.32-31-generic; KDE/4.4.5; i686; ; )
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Disposition-Notification-To: Angela Kahealani <[email protected]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 15:37:18 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Wed, 2011-05-18 05:35:33 you wrote:
> With precomputed tables, the byte instructions simply become
> masking and shift.
..shades of the IBM 1620 which did lots of its BCD math by table look-up, but
tables were more expensive when 16K of Core was a lot of memory, and expensive.
2900 bit slices were definitely the leaders of an era.
--
Aloha, Celestial Angela (2ndLife:Celeste Python / PhysicalLife:Angela Kahealani)
"(I'll) Be Seeing You..." All information and transactions are private between
the parties, and are non negotiable. All rights reserve without prejudice by
Angela Kahealani http://www.kahealani.com/kahealani/angela_kahealani.html

19-May-2011 20:27:11-PDT,11461;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 19 May 2011 20:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from host6.netdorm.com ([64.182.105.6]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 19 May 2011 19:50:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from smtp01.ci.net (c-76-24-16-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [76.24.16.109])
(authenticated bits=0)
by box7.911domain.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p4K2TuoA026014
for <[email protected]>; Thu, 19 May 2011 22:29:57 -0400
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
X-SPAM: Please report Spam to [email protected]
By service at http://www.dnsExit.com/Direct.sv?cmd=mailRelay
Accounts will be suspended immediately if convicted Spam
X-Received: by smtp01.ci.net (Postfix, from userid 2026)
id 8F6DC9A4D; Thu, 19 May 2011 22:29:52 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp01.ci.net
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: score=-102.9, tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD,
USER_IN_WHITELIST, version=3.3.1
X-Received: from envoy.ci.net (envoy-e0.ci.net [192.168.2.53])
by smtp01.ci.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45EC953F
for <[email protected]>; Thu, 19 May 2011 22:29:50 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: from [192.168.1.77] (unknown [216.241.193.166])
(using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by envoy.ci.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C8728D88
for <[email protected]>; Thu, 19 May 2011 22:29:50 -0400 (EDT)
User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
From: Rich Braun <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:29:33 -0600
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 20:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

>Replying from some remote town in Utah, where I fondlyfound a wifi oasis...
>
>It was *28* years ago this week that K.O. came to MRO1 to drop the axe.
>I served 3 roles successively (several months each) during 15 months of
>the project up through that final day: firmware engineer, breadboard
>debugger, and finally performance validation tester. As such I had a
>bird's eye view of the project's failure. There was no way to save it
>by the time I came on board in Feb 1982 as an ambitious 20 year old
>college dropout. (Indeed, it was this super hot job market that led so
>many of us to choose work over school back then... I went back to
>school and finished in 11 years.)
>
>I think the key flaws on the KC10 (we always called it by code name
>Jupiter Project) were the Ibox prefetch phase-timing bug and the lack
>of sufficient software simulation early in the project.
>
>The other postings didn't point out a medical event on which this
>history turned: DEC had hired Don Hooper out of Intel to do most of the
>hardware design, and the Ibox was his new baby. Just as the 3
>breadboard systems came alive in the lab, Hooper was sent to the
>hospital with hepatitis for a couple months. During his absence, I was
>sent into the lab 10 hours a day Sun-Wed 2nd shift to help debugging -
>probably the last project ever to use scopes and logic analyzers as
>primary tools for CPU developed.
>
>A key management error (presumably by Ulf Fagerquist but maybe by
>others) at that point was to run the clock at 44ns cycle time instead
>of the specified 22ns. These circuits were BIG, each board had a couple
>hundred 100K ECL chips on it and there were about 15 or 20 slots on the
>backplane.
>
>The Ebox ran 4 clock phases so at half speed we were debugging with a
>90-MHz raw clock speed. More than once, I remember inserting long
>pieces of wire to delay a gate change long enough clear results at the
>input gate for the next phase. (1ns is a foot, give or take.)
>
>The problem with the approach was that although we got the Ebox running
>correctly at the 90-MHz speed, it took something like 10 weeks of round
>the clock effort, much of which had to be repeated after cranking the
>clock to 180.
>
>Someone wrote a very useful simulator of the Ebox in Lisp. That made it
>possible to finish the Ebox firmware before the breadboards were built,
>and hinted at the future advantages of full gate-level simulation for
>all future projects. As someone noted on this thread, Project Venus
>(VAX 8600) already had that benefit; DEC was running about 9 CPU
>projects circa 82-83 and some were clearly contingencies in case of
>failed projects. I think the company as a whole should have put more
>commitment behind fewer projects but that's easy to say in hindsight.
>There were a lot more CPU companies in those days. A whole LOT more.
>
>Back to Don Hooper and the Ibox:on some particular day a few months
>before project demise, a handful of us realized the Ibox couldn't run
>on a 4-phase clock: it needed 5. We could redesign the Ebox to use 5
>phases (27.5ns cycle instead of 22, or maybe speed up the clock a bit
>faster than 180MHz) or do an Ibox redesign. Late and over budget, the
>prospects were dim and Hooper was out sick. I don't recall having
>access to another hardware architect at his level, aside from one of
>the corporate VPs sent in to monitor at the tail end of the project.
>
>Someone mentioned the disparity of performance in the instruction mix.
>I wrote the floating-point and byte arithmetic microcode; it used a
>106-bit word to control the Ebox for each full 4-phase cycle (divided
>into numerous sub-fields of 1 to 12 bits each, some actions took effect
>at different phases). Yes, some instructions were 10x faster than the
>KL10 and some were only 1.5x. We did use lookup tables (to the extent
>we had room in a 4k instruction RAM space) to optimize commonly-used
>7bit byte instructions.
>
>How to tell what the overall performance would be relative to the KL?
>Enter the lovely Rita and METERMAID. Rita Tillson was my coworker,
>METERMAID was a software app that worked like 'expect' or the
>more-current browser-based test tools that simulate monkeys banging on
>keyboards. We had no simulator but we had a building full of KL10s and
>modified microcode to generate histograms of the instruction mix.
>Working together, we created 3 customer-use scenarios and ran
>simulations of 60 simultaneous users.
>
>Rita and I wrote up the result that, assuming all the other engineering
>problems could be solved, the KC10 would be 1.8x faster than the KL10
>for a typical customer.
>
>Soon thereafter, K.O. cancelled the project and invited the 40 of us to
>find new work elsewhere within the company, which had a no-layoff
>policy for its first 30 years.
>
>At home I have a coffee mug inscribed "Smooth sailing through the '80s
>with LCG" referring to the 36-bit PDP-6 architecture. I protect that
>mug as a prized antique.
>
>To this day, I fondly recall my boss Scott Robinson as a gifted mentor
>and wish the world had more like him.
>
>Errors, typos and misremembered facts all mine. Apologies to Dick
>Wagman for not describing his work on the advanced string instructions
>more. Corrections and followups invited to [email protected].
>Forward to interested parties.
>
>Thanks, Phil, for passing this along!
>
>-rich
>-rich
>Sent from my Samsung Galaxy mobile
>
>
>Phil Budne <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>ISTR that indirect addressing was one of the downfalls.... > From
>[email protected] Tue May 17 18:19:58 2011 > X-Return-Path:
><[email protected]> > X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com
>([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May
>2011 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) > X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix,
>from userid 1009) > id 8654131C4159; Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:59 -0400
>(EDT) > X-Received: from [172.16.4.67]
>(Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67]) > by
>www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163FE31C4107; > Tue, 17 May
>2011 17:34:59 -0400 (EDT) > Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:58 -0400 >
>From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]> > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0
>(Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414
>Thunderbird/3.1.10 > To: [email protected] > CC: Bob Smith
><[email protected]> > Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >
>ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:13:59 -0700 (PDT) > ReSent-From:
>TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]> > ReSent-To: TOPS-20
>Distribution: ; > ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>ReSent-Message-ID:
><[email protected]> >
>ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > > > > I know you
>know this, But it was the KC10, not the KL killed in 83. > > The KL was
>just starting to breath, and it was okay for its time. > Of course,
>swap read error on my brain. By the time the KC was killed, > the KL
>was totally out of gas. By 80 or 81, we were begging for a faster >
>machine. Don't know why we didn't get a Foonly or XKL.... > > I've
>heard so many stories and theories about why Project Jupiter. One > was
>that the design was a bet on pipelining instructions, and the PDP-6 >
>instructions didn't pipeling well. Another was that it was not even >
>seeing a times 2 improvement over the KL, and it had been promised as a
>> X4 or better. Still another was that the CAD time was needed to do
>Vax > architecture, and it was better bang for the CPU hour than the KC
>> > > -- > Pat Farrell > http://www.pfarrell.com/ > > > > From
>[email protected] Wed May 18 11:22:09 2011 > X-Return-Path:
><[email protected]> > X-Received: from s4.parkbits.net ([74.50.51.103]) by
>Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 00:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
>> X-Received: from [172.29.2.140] ([94.247.8.10]) > (authenticated
>bits=0) > by s4.parkbits.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id
>p4I7wf6E027306 > for <[email protected]>; Wed, 18 May 2011
>03:58:44 -0400 > Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 03:58:59 -0400 > From: Dan
>Murphy <[email protected]> > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows
>NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10 > To:
>[email protected] > Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >
>X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: p4I7wf6E027306 > X-ParkBits-MailScanner:
>Found to be clean > X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: [email protected] >
>ReSent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:16:15 -0700 (PDT) > ReSent-From:
>TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]> > ReSent-To: TOPS-20
>Distribution: ; > ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>ReSent-Message-ID:
><[email protected]> >
>ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > > My
>recollection is that, although some instructions were very fast, >
>others, the byte instructions in particular, were turni
-rich
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy mobile

20-May-2011 12:18:12-PDT,11334;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from da.opost.com ([74.50.50.10]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from [172.22.41.7] (66-189-38-131.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com [66.189.38.131])
by da.opost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20E83382E6
for <[email protected]>; Fri, 20 May 2011 14:23:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:23:55 -0400
From: Dan Murphy <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Thanks for the detailed history! It is consistent with what I remember,
which at best, was a much more general picture.

-d

On 5/19/2011 10:29 PM, Rich Braun wrote:
>
>> Replying from some remote town in Utah, where I fondlyfound a wifi oasis...
>>
>> It was *28* years ago this week that K.O. came to MRO1 to drop the axe.
>> I served 3 roles successively (several months each) during 15 months of
>> the project up through that final day: firmware engineer, breadboard
>> debugger, and finally performance validation tester. As such I had a
>> bird's eye view of the project's failure. There was no way to save it
>> by the time I came on board in Feb 1982 as an ambitious 20 year old
>> college dropout. (Indeed, it was this super hot job market that led so
>> many of us to choose work over school back then... I went back to
>> school and finished in 11 years.)
>>
>> I think the key flaws on the KC10 (we always called it by code name
>> Jupiter Project) were the Ibox prefetch phase-timing bug and the lack
>> of sufficient software simulation early in the project.
>>
>> The other postings didn't point out a medical event on which this
>> history turned: DEC had hired Don Hooper out of Intel to do most of the
>> hardware design, and the Ibox was his new baby. Just as the 3
>> breadboard systems came alive in the lab, Hooper was sent to the
>> hospital with hepatitis for a couple months. During his absence, I was
>> sent into the lab 10 hours a day Sun-Wed 2nd shift to help debugging -
>> probably the last project ever to use scopes and logic analyzers as
>> primary tools for CPU developed.
>>
>> A key management error (presumably by Ulf Fagerquist but maybe by
>> others) at that point was to run the clock at 44ns cycle time instead
>> of the specified 22ns. These circuits were BIG, each board had a couple
>> hundred 100K ECL chips on it and there were about 15 or 20 slots on the
>> backplane.
>>
>> The Ebox ran 4 clock phases so at half speed we were debugging with a
>> 90-MHz raw clock speed. More than once, I remember inserting long
>> pieces of wire to delay a gate change long enough clear results at the
>> input gate for the next phase. (1ns is a foot, give or take.)
>>
>> The problem with the approach was that although we got the Ebox running
>> correctly at the 90-MHz speed, it took something like 10 weeks of round
>> the clock effort, much of which had to be repeated after cranking the
>> clock to 180.
>>
>> Someone wrote a very useful simulator of the Ebox in Lisp. That made it
>> possible to finish the Ebox firmware before the breadboards were built,
>> and hinted at the future advantages of full gate-level simulation for
>> all future projects. As someone noted on this thread, Project Venus
>> (VAX 8600) already had that benefit; DEC was running about 9 CPU
>> projects circa 82-83 and some were clearly contingencies in case of
>> failed projects. I think the company as a whole should have put more
>> commitment behind fewer projects but that's easy to say in hindsight.
>> There were a lot more CPU companies in those days. A whole LOT more.
>>
>> Back to Don Hooper and the Ibox:on some particular day a few months
>> before project demise, a handful of us realized the Ibox couldn't run
>> on a 4-phase clock: it needed 5. We could redesign the Ebox to use 5
>> phases (27.5ns cycle instead of 22, or maybe speed up the clock a bit
>> faster than 180MHz) or do an Ibox redesign. Late and over budget, the
>> prospects were dim and Hooper was out sick. I don't recall having
>> access to another hardware architect at his level, aside from one of
>> the corporate VPs sent in to monitor at the tail end of the project.
>>
>> Someone mentioned the disparity of performance in the instruction mix.
>> I wrote the floating-point and byte arithmetic microcode; it used a
>> 106-bit word to control the Ebox for each full 4-phase cycle (divided
>> into numerous sub-fields of 1 to 12 bits each, some actions took effect
>> at different phases). Yes, some instructions were 10x faster than the
>> KL10 and some were only 1.5x. We did use lookup tables (to the extent
>> we had room in a 4k instruction RAM space) to optimize commonly-used
>> 7bit byte instructions.
>>
>> How to tell what the overall performance would be relative to the KL?
>> Enter the lovely Rita and METERMAID. Rita Tillson was my coworker,
>> METERMAID was a software app that worked like 'expect' or the
>> more-current browser-based test tools that simulate monkeys banging on
>> keyboards. We had no simulator but we had a building full of KL10s and
>> modified microcode to generate histograms of the instruction mix.
>> Working together, we created 3 customer-use scenarios and ran
>> simulations of 60 simultaneous users.
>>
>> Rita and I wrote up the result that, assuming all the other engineering
>> problems could be solved, the KC10 would be 1.8x faster than the KL10
>> for a typical customer.
>>
>> Soon thereafter, K.O. cancelled the project and invited the 40 of us to
>> find new work elsewhere within the company, which had a no-layoff
>> policy for its first 30 years.
>>
>> At home I have a coffee mug inscribed "Smooth sailing through the '80s
>> with LCG" referring to the 36-bit PDP-6 architecture. I protect that
>> mug as a prized antique.
>>
>> To this day, I fondly recall my boss Scott Robinson as a gifted mentor
>> and wish the world had more like him.
>>
>> Errors, typos and misremembered facts all mine. Apologies to Dick
>> Wagman for not describing his work on the advanced string instructions
>> more. Corrections and followups invited to [email protected].
>> Forward to interested parties.
>>
>> Thanks, Phil, for passing this along!
>>
>> -rich
>> -rich
>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy mobile
>>
>>
>> Phil Budne <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> ISTR that indirect addressing was one of the downfalls.... > From
>> [email protected] Tue May 17 18:19:58 2011 > X-Return-Path:
>> <[email protected]> > X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com
>> ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 17 May
>> 2011 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) > X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix,
> >from userid 1009) > id 8654131C4159; Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:59 -0400
>> (EDT) > X-Received: from [172.16.4.67]
>> (Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67]) > by
>> www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163FE31C4107; > Tue, 17 May
>> 2011 17:34:59 -0400 (EDT) > Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:34:58 -0400 >
>> From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]> > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0
>> (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414
>> Thunderbird/3.1.10 > To: [email protected] > CC: Bob Smith
>> <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >
>> ReSent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:13:59 -0700 (PDT) > ReSent-From:
>> TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]> > ReSent-To: TOPS-20
>> Distribution: ; > ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>> ReSent-Message-ID:
>> <[email protected]> >
>> ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > > > > I know you
>> know this, But it was the KC10, not the KL killed in 83. > > The KL was
>> just starting to breath, and it was okay for its time. > Of course,
>> swap read error on my brain. By the time the KC was killed, > the KL
>> was totally out of gas. By 80 or 81, we were begging for a faster >
>> machine. Don't know why we didn't get a Foonly or XKL.... > > I've
>> heard so many stories and theories about why Project Jupiter. One > was
>> that the design was a bet on pipelining instructions, and the PDP-6 >
>> instructions didn't pipeling well. Another was that it was not even >
>> seeing a times 2 improvement over the KL, and it had been promised as a
>>> X4 or better. Still another was that the CAD time was needed to do
>> Vax > architecture, and it was better bang for the CPU hour than the KC
>>>>> -- > Pat Farrell > http://www.pfarrell.com/ > > > > From
>> [email protected] Wed May 18 11:22:09 2011 > X-Return-Path:
>> <[email protected]> > X-Received: from s4.parkbits.net ([74.50.51.103]) by
>> Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 00:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
>>> X-Received: from [172.29.2.140] ([94.247.8.10]) > (authenticated
>> bits=0) > by s4.parkbits.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id
>> p4I7wf6E027306 > for <[email protected]>; Wed, 18 May 2011
>> 03:58:44 -0400 > Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 03:58:59 -0400 > From: Dan
>> Murphy <[email protected]> > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows
>> NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10 > To:
>> [email protected] > Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >
>> X-ParkBits-MailScanner-ID: p4I7wf6E027306 > X-ParkBits-MailScanner:
>> Found to be clean > X-ParkBits-MailScanner-From: [email protected] >
>> ReSent-Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:16:15 -0700 (PDT) > ReSent-From:
>> TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]> > ReSent-To: TOPS-20
>> Distribution: ; > ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... >
>> ReSent-Message-ID:
>> <[email protected]> >
>> ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) > > My
>> recollection is that, although some instructions were very fast, >
>> others, the byte instructions in particular, were turni
> -rich
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy mobile
>

--
Internet radio stations for many tastes:
http://www.acousticoutpost.com/ - Urban Folk and Acoustic Music
http://www.57chevyradio.com/ - Golden Oldies from the 60s and late 50s
http://www.bobdylantracks.com/ - The songs of Bob Dylan by many artists

20-May-2011 12:42:03-PDT,2592;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 12:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
ReSent-Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 12:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Fri, 20 May 2011, Dan Murphy wrote:
> Thanks for the detailed history! It is consistent with what I remember,
> which at best, was a much more general picture.

I would like to second Dan's comments. Rich's message answers a lot of
questions, and fills in a great many gaps in the story of the debacle.

We had heard about the KC10 boards and the long wires to delay gate
changes, but not about Don Hooper's illness, the project running without a
high-level hardware architect during that time, and running the clock at
half speed. Nor had we heard that at this late point they were still
using scopes and logic analyzers (although we might have guessed) as
primary tools for CPU development

In reading the KC10 functional specifications, there was a lot of neat
stuff there that even today I covet. One of my fantasies is to get enough
energy to implement some of that in klh10. I have CIRC (why Digital never
implemented this, I don't know; when you need it you really need it!) and
some IOTs to manipulate the Panda display panel.

[For the benefit of those not in the know; CIRC (opcode 247) is a ROTC in
which AC+1 goes the other way.]

I, too, treasure my two LCG "smooth sailing" coffee mugs as prized
antiques.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

21-May-2011 14:50:41-PDT,1961;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 May 2011 14:48:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from paneer.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.4]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 21 May 2011 14:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from banana.cc.columbia.edu (banana.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.29.54])
by paneer.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p4LLlRiN020073;
Sat, 21 May 2011 17:47:28 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: from banana.cc.columbia.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by banana.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p4LLlR9V026172;
Sat, 21 May 2011 17:47:27 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: (from fdc@localhost)
by banana.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.3/Submit) id p4LLlRqP026171;
Sat, 21 May 2011 17:47:27 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 17:47:27 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[email protected]>
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Cc: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>,
TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-No-Spam-Score: Local
X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 128.59.29.4
ReSent-Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Fri, 20 May 2011, Mark Crispin wrote:
> I, too, treasure my two LCG "smooth sailing" coffee mugs as prized
> antiques.
>
Me too:

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/smooth.html

And lots of other relics in the DEC sections of:

http://www.columbia.edu/~fdc/books/

- Frank

22-May-2011 13:41:01-PDT,7101;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from a.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.16.245]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from newshell.sonic.net (bolt.sonic.net [208.201.242.19])
by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p4MKWcVF018568
(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO);
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:32:38 -0700
X-Received: from bolt.sonic.net (IDENT:irezutZnEIsE/ZfHRwobDVq/[email protected] [127.0.0.1])
by newshell.sonic.net (8.13.6/8.12.1) with ESMTP id p4MKWcbM017056;
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:32:38 -0700
X-Received: from localhost (fw@localhost)
by bolt.sonic.net (8.13.6/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id p4MKWcYI017052;
Sun, 22 May 2011 13:32:38 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: bolt.sonic.net: fw owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Wright <[email protected]>
X-X-Sender: [email protected]
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:39:14 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 28 years ago 5-17-83
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Tue, 17 May 2011, Mark Crispin wrote:

> At 2PM EDT on 17 May 1983, Ken Olsen and Bill Johnson cancelled Project
> Jupiter.

Note, however, that this was not the final nail in the DEC PDP-10 coffin.
A few months later, there were talks between DEC and SC about buying and
manufacturing our SC-30 design. Although the SC-30 wasn't as fast as the
Jupiter was *intended* to be, it was faster than Jupiter was capable of
actually running usefully, and used *way* less hardware to do it.

For those unaware, the SC-30 was code-named "Mars", based on being
"smaller than Jupiter but a lot closer".

The talks ultimately broke down (for non-technical reasons). Whether this
was more or less "real" thean Jupiter depends on how you look at it. It
never got far enough to have anything actually built by DEC, but it was a
design that was manufactured in quantity and sold to actual customers, and
led to the even faster SC-40, which was also manufactured in quantity and
sold to actual customers.

There's an interesting story regarding the big meeting between us and DEC.
At the time, I had the microcode working *almost* well enough to run
TOPS-10 (as a KI, which we did initially to get it up with simpler
microcode; it turned into a KL later). There was one bug between being
able to get to the dot prompt and being able to actually log in a job
without its crashing (the job, not the OS). I managed to find the bug,
put in a patch for it, and successfully log in a TOPS-10 job for the first
time while a couple of the DEC guys (visiting for the meeting) were
looking over my shoulder.

On Wed, 18 May 2011, Mark Crispin wrote:

> This surprises me; the need to make the byte instructions fast has been
> known since 1964! klh10 goes to considerable effort to in this regard.
>
> These days, I would probably have a table of precomputed shift, masks
> (byte and inverse), and increment based on the first 12 bits of the word.
> I wouldn't worry about the duplication in OWGBPs either, and just worry
> about OWBGPs in crossing a section; and of course increment across a word
> normalizes. With precomputed tables, the byte instructions simply become
> masking and shift.

This is exactly what the SC-30 and SC-40 did, as well as providing a "byte
pointer type" dispatch to assist the microcode in getting to the right
case quickly. Even masking was done by table lookup, to avoid the need
for special hardware (beyond a small bit to route the mask size to the
scratchpas address).

> On Wed, 18 May 2011, Dan Murphy wrote:
> > My recollection is that, although some instructions were very fast,
> > others, the byte instructions in particular, were turning out no faster
> > than the KL. Those instructions were an Achillie's Heel of the
> > architecture -- too much generality (and consequent overhead) for 99% of
> > the common uses. We probably should have designed some new instructions
> > to fix that, but by then, it was too late.

I heard a rumor that one of the problems was that DEC had brought in some
engineers that weren't terribly familiar with the PDP-10 architecture.

On Fri, 20 May 2011, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2011, Dan Murphy wrote:
> > Thanks for the detailed history! It is consistent with what I remember,
> > which at best, was a much more general picture.
>
> I would like to second Dan's comments. Rich's message answers a lot of
> questions, and fills in a great many gaps in the story of the debacle.
>
> We had heard about the KC10 boards and the long wires to delay gate
> changes, but not about Don Hooper's illness, the project running without a
> high-level hardware architect during that time, and running the clock at
> half speed. Nor had we heard that at this late point they were still
> using scopes and logic analyzers (although we might have guessed) as
> primary tools for CPU development

The SC-30 and SC-40 were developed using 'scopes and logic analyzers,
though there were also some built-in "logic analyzer" features.

> In reading the KC10 functional specifications, there was a lot of neat
> stuff there that even today I covet. One of my fantasies is to get enough
> energy to implement some of that in klh10. I have CIRC (why Digital never
> implemented this, I don't know; when you need it you really need it!) and
> some IOTs to manipulate the Panda display panel.
>
> [For the benefit of those not in the know; CIRC (opcode 247) is a ROTC in
> which AC+1 goes the other way.]

Though to be honest, it's not that hard to reverse bits by table lookup,
and making use of a feature like that has to worry about a fallback when
the machine it's running on doesn't implement it.

And of course the modern processor architecture philosophy is to remove
any operation that can't be written as a C operator. :-)

The SC-30 and SC-40 implemented some extra instructions to make Common
LISP faster, and some extra instructions that CompuServe wanted to make
moving to extended addressing easier (though I'm not sure they ever
actually used them).

Fred Wright

22-May-2011 14:01:17-PDT,2855;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:59:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from a.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.16.245]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:41:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from newshell.sonic.net (bolt.sonic.net [208.201.242.19])
by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p4MKf1LI024343
(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO)
for <[email protected]>; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:41:01 -0700
X-Received: from bolt.sonic.net (IDENT:fW3n/[email protected] [127.0.0.1])
by newshell.sonic.net (8.13.6/8.12.1) with ESMTP id p4MKf1GH020403
for <[email protected]>; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:41:01 -0700
X-Received: from localhost (fw@localhost)
by bolt.sonic.net (8.13.6/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id p4MKf1R2020393
for <[email protected]>; Sun, 22 May 2011 13:41:01 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: bolt.sonic.net: fw owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Wright <[email protected]>
X-X-Sender: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
ReSent-Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Wed, 18 May 2011, Angela Kahealani wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-05-18 05:35:33 you wrote:
> > With precomputed tables, the byte instructions simply become
> > masking and shift.
> ...shades of the IBM 1620 which did lots of its BCD math by table look-up, but

Where "lots of" meant addition and multiplication on the Model I, and just
multiplication on the Model II.

Things could get "interesting" if one loaded the wrong data into that part
of memory. :-)

Note, however, that "table lookup" does not have to mean "table lookup in
main memory" (the KL's OWGBP implementation notwithstanding).

> tables were more expensive when 16K of Core was a lot of memory, and expensive.
> 2900 bit slices were definitely the leaders of an era.

Well, the PDP-6 had a "bit slice". It was called the 6205. :-)

Fred Wright

23-May-2011 11:29:40-PDT,17722;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 23 May 2011 11:29:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail.math.utah.edu ([155.101.98.135]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 23 May 2011 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (psi.math.utah.edu [155.101.96.19])
by mail.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p4NHAnQ7029252;
Mon, 23 May 2011 11:10:49 -0600 (MDT)
X-Received: from psi.math.utah.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p4NHAnKn010864;
Mon, 23 May 2011 11:10:49 -0600 (MDT)
X-Received: (from beebe@localhost)
by psi.math.utah.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p4NHAnB9010862;
Mon, 23 May 2011 11:10:49 -0600 (MDT)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:10:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
X-US-Mail: "Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB, University of Utah, 155 S
1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA"
X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254
X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148
X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe
Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... [and even before then]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.3.8 (mail.math.utah.edu [155.101.98.135]); Mon, 23 May 2011 11:10:49 -0600 (MDT)
ReSent-Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: 38 years ago today... [and even before then]
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

[This letter needs a 126-character-wide printer/screen/window ... It
might get truncated if you print it on your DEC LA120.]

Frank da Cruz's historical computer publication list contains articles
from the Bell System Technical Journal.

It is not probably widely known yet, but in November 2010, issues of
the Bell System Technical Journal from 1922 to 1983 were made freely
available electronically at the Bell Labs Web site (and subsequently
moved to Alcatel/Lucent).

I've prepared BibTeX bibliography files for all of them, and for all
subsequent issues to date (the journal has been renamed a few times).
Each BibTeX entry has one or more links to PDF files for the article.

You can find Unix-related articles in the files

bstj1970.bib bstj1980.bib bstj1990.bib

from links at this Web site

http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub//tex/bib/index-table-b.html

The .html files look identical to the .bib files, but have live
hypertext links.

None of the titles in this journal family mentions PDP or TOPS.

You may recall that Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson wanted to buy a
PDP-10, but could not get funding, so they found an unused PDP-7, and
began development of an O/S and a language, B, based on BCPL (Basic
Combined [Cambridge] Programming Language); later, they migrated to a
PDP-11 and evolved B to C.

Here is a time-ordered summary of article titles that mention Unix
(the containing issues likely have other related articles without Unix
in the title):

% bibsql -s mysql
mysql> select label, substr(title,1,120) from bibtab where title like '%unix%' and filename like '%bstj%' order by year, label;
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| label | substr(title,1,120) |
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bourne:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The UNIX Shell |
| Cohen:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The Network Operations Center System |
| Crowley:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Preface |
| Dolotta:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The Programmer's Workbench |
| Fraser:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Circuit Design Aids |
| Johnson:1978:UTSa | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Portability of C Programs and the UNIX System |
| Johnson:1978:UTSb | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Language Development Tools |
| Kernighan:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Document Preparation |
| Luderer:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The UNIX Operating System as a Base for Applications |
| Lycklama:1978:UTSa | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The MERT Operating System |
| Lycklama:1978:UTSb | UNIX Time-Sharing System: UNIX on a Microprocessor |
| Lycklama:1978:UTSc | UNIX Time-Sharing System: A Minicomputer Satellite Processor System |
| McIlroy:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Forward |
| McMahon:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Statistical Text Processing |
| Nagelberg:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: RBCS / RCMAS --- Converting to the MERT Operating System |
| Pekarich:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: No. 4 ESS Diagnostic Environment |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSa | The UNIX Time-Sharing System |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSb | UNIX Time-Sharing System: A Retrospective |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSc | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The C Programming Language |
| Rovegno:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: A Support Environment for MAC-8 Systems |
| Thompson:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: UNIX Implementation |
| Wonsiewicz:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Microcomputer Control of Apparatus, Machinery, and Experiments |
| Rochkind:1982:DSS | Database Systems: Structure of a Database File System for the UNIX Operating System |
| Weinberger:1982:DSM | Database Systems: Making UNIX Operating Systems Safe for Databases |
| Frase:1983:HFB | Human Factors and Behavioral Science: The UNIX Writer's Workbench Software: Philosophy |
| Gingrich:1983:HFB | Human Factors and Behavioral Science: The UNIX Writer's Workbench Software: Results of a Field Study |
| Macdonald:1983:HFB | Human Factors and Behavioral Science: The UNIX Writer's Workbench Software: Rationale and Design |
| Aho:1984:USF | The UNIX System: Foreword |
| Bach:1984:MUO | Multiprocessor UNIX operating systems |
| Bodenstab:1984:UOS | UNIX operating system porting experiences |
| Feder:1984:EUS | Evolution of UNIX system performance |
| Felton:1984:USI | A UNIX system implementation for System / 370 |
| Fritz:1984:NCR | Network of computers running the UNIX system |
| Grampp:1984:UOS | UNIX operating system security |
| Martin:1984:USP | The UNIX System: Preface |
| Pike:1984:PDU | Program Design in the UNIX System Environment |
| Reeds:1984:FSU | File Security and the UNIX System tt crypt Command |
| Ritchie:1984:EUT | Evolution of the UNIX time-sharing system |
| Barkley:1988:PSU | A Performance Study of the Unix System V Fork System Call Using Casper |
| Frakes:1988:CES | CEST: an expert system function library and workbench for UNIX system / C language |
| Ramamurthy:1988:AMU | An Analytical Model for Unix Systems |
| Vesonder:1988:RBP | Rule-Based Programming in the Unix System |
| Kernighan:1989:USD | The UNIX System Document Preparation Tools: A Retrospective |
| Scheer:1995:IUS | Internationalizing UNIX software projects |
+---------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
44 rows in set (1.89 sec)

There are also articles on computed-based document production:

mysql> select label, substr(title,1,120) from bibtab where title like '%document%' and filename like '%bstj%' order by year, label;
+--------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| label | substr(title,1,120) |
+--------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Kernighan:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Document Preparation |
| Hester:1981:UDS | Using Documentation as a Software Design Medium |
| Glushko:1982:ARS | Automated Repair Service Bureau: On-line Documentation: Mechanizing Develoment, Delivery, and Use |
| Coke:1983:HFB | Human Factors and Behavioral Science: A Study of the Match Between the Stylistic Difficulty of Technical Documents and t |
| Kernighan:1989:USD | The UNIX System Document Preparation Tools: A Retrospective |
| Agazzi:1993:PTD | Pseudo two-dimensional hidden Markov models for document recognition |
| Baldasare:1993:DEU | Designing easy-to-use online documentation systems |
| Maxemchuk:1994:EDD | Electronic Document Distribution |
| Hanmer:2004:DAP | Documenting architectures with patterns |
+--------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
9 rows in set (1.85 sec)

Here are titles for some well-known Bell Labs authors:

mysql> select label, substr(title,1,120) from bibtab where author like '%Kernighan%' and filename like '%bstj%' order by year, label;
+--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| label | substr(title,1,120) |
+--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Kernighan:1970:EHP | An Efficient Heuristic Procedure for Partitioning Graphs |
| Kernighan:1973:HSS | Heuristic Solution of a Signal Design Optimization |
| Kernighan:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Document Preparation |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSc | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The C Programming Language |
| Pike:1984:PDU | Program Design in the UNIX System Environment |
| Kernighan:1989:USD | The UNIX System Document Preparation Tools: A Retrospective |
+--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------------+
6 rows in set (1.81 sec)

mysql> select label, substr(title,1,120) from bibtab where author like '%Pike%' and filename like '%bstj%' order by year, label;
+------------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| label | substr(title,1,120) |
+------------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| Pike:1984:BMG | The Blit: a multiplexed graphics terminal |
| Pike:1984:PDU | Program Design in the UNIX System Environment |
| Dorward:1997:ITO | The InfernoTM operating system |
| Pike:1999:SRA | The Styxreg architecture for distributed systems |
+------------------+--------------------------------------------------+
4 rows in set (1.83 sec)

mysql> select label, substr(title,1,120) from bibtab where author like '%Ritchie%' and filename like '%bstj%' order by year, label;
+-------------------+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| label | substr(title,1,120) |
+-------------------+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Frost:1953:TMT | A Throwdown Machine for Telephone Traffic Studies |
| Ritchie:1977:NES | No. 4 ESS: System Objectives and Organization |
| Johnson:1978:UTSa | UNIX Time-Sharing System: Portability of C Programs and the UNIX System |
| Ritchie:1978:CCI | Common Channel Interoffice Signaling: An Overview |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSa | The UNIX Time-Sharing System |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSb | UNIX Time-Sharing System: A Retrospective |
| Ritchie:1978:UTSc | UNIX Time-Sharing System: The C Programming Language |
| Dubois:1983:ASS | The AR6A Single-Sideband Microwave Radio System: Terminal Multiplex Equipment |
| Ritchie:1984:EUT | Evolution of the UNIX time-sharing system |
| Ritchie:1984:SIO | Stream input-output system |
| Dorward:1997:ITO | The InfernoTM operating system |
| Pike:1999:SRA | The Styxreg architecture for distributed systems |
+-------------------+-------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
12 rows in set (1.83 sec)

mysql> select label, substr(title,1,120) from bibtab where author like '%K%Thompson%' and filename like '%bstj%' order by year, label;
+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| label | substr(title,1,120) |
+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ritchie:1978:UTSa | The UNIX Time-Sharing System |
| Thompson:1978:UTS | UNIX Time-Sharing System: UNIX Implementation |
| Gauldin:1993:WMS | 5ESS wireless mobile switching center |
| Eickmeyer:1995:NGU | The next generation in underwater acoustic detection |
| Bergren:1997:WWC | Wireless and wireline convergence |
| Azada:2006:SMA | Seamless mobility across IMS and legacy circuit networks |
| Raybon:2010:GDF | 100 Gb/s DQPSK field trial: Live video transmission over an operating LambdaXtremereg network |
+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
7 rows in set (1.86 sec)

Surprisingly, there are no articles about the Bell Labs relay
computers (developed by George Stibitz in 1938--1944), the first
machines to have complex arithmetic in hardware (decimal, fixed-point
and floating-point).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 -
- University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: [email protected] -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233 [email protected] [email protected] -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18-Jun-2011 12:15:21-PDT,1647;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.96]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.72])
by qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id xQ6Q1g0041ZMdJ4A9UG6MJ; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:16:06 +0000
X-Received: from [10.0.1.3] ([24.62.230.208])
by omta16.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id xUFB1g01x4WRhhk8cUFDL4; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:15:15 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240803ca227eb66677@[10.0.1.3]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:16:03 -0400
To: [email protected]
From: Paul Wexelblat <[email protected]>
Subject: anybody want a...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
ReSent-Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: anybody want a...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

KL10 Maintenence Handbook

EK-KL10-HB-001

(1975-1977)

(about 8.5 x 4 inches) 103 pages

(Last page lists the DEC Diagnosis Center (Princeton)
609-452-2940, Ext 440 )

:)

--
--
...wex

18-Jun-2011 18:21:58-PDT,3025;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail-gw0-f47.google.com ([74.125.83.47]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11so258415gwb.34
for <[email protected]>; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date
:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
:content-transfer-encoding;
bh=G3NMxsKGVQfg4lOeNY/RxqWsFVY1fKRMulWo1CcCY6M=;
b=v6wd372l83kVh/2M65k5a5up7Ef70YfvbQl7SpIklkAwE8wpPy5THVTFMFVxC7yOOE
pPkwQTPd7vCNw+r4ZI3arZI9XbmIQNvi0vpfxIhVF4phSakp6ynJgqz7vfPgo073j2dq
deQcAMFnJS39pTTqM1xFBA3ekBOWa2hFXwI+E=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date
:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type
:content-transfer-encoding;
b=lnx8J0E1VkO8d+aY+yKr4A6hJC8lGiYHUEv1zg/E1QVpbmz1Na/z45zUEKNJq/epGB
O7e9V8cEfWrZVdDx2b94lBO89rIql88vAl9IFLyigggvvUZ+yCBCamLJACTIk2h0jgr1
GXRPMpSSeFs5TGEq33QrazOta6cNOsv7zKaxY=
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.146.74.2 with SMTP id w2mr3907137yaa.20.1308425716604; Sat, 18
Jun 2011 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
Sender: [email protected]
X-Received: by 10.146.210.3 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:35:16 -0400
X-Google-Sender-Auth: mmtREQ_4HWAfPuJN_vuTGLaEsoA
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: anybody want a...
From: John Ioannidis <[email protected]>
To: Paul Wexelblat <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: anybody want a...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

how appropriate would it be to scan it and make it available as a pdf?
I volunteer to do the scanning.

/ji

On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Paul Wexelblat
<[email protected]> wrote:
> KL10 Maintenence Handbook
>
> EK-KL10-HB-001
>
> (1975-1977)
>
> (about 8.5 x 4 inches) 103 pages
>
> (Last page lists the DEC Diagnosis Center (Princeton)
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0609-452-2940, Ext 440 )
>
> :)
>
> --
> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0...wex
>
>

18-Jun-2011 18:22:05-PDT,2243;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.48]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:03:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.74])
by qmta05.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id xbjy1g0051bwxycA5c3Pa9; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:03:23 +0000
X-Received: from [10.0.1.3] ([24.62.230.208])
by omta18.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id xc3o1g0164WRhhk8ec3qxT; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:03:52 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240808ca22ecc53208@[10.0.1.3]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:03:21 -0400
To: John Ioannidis <[email protected]>
From: P&G Wexelblat <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: anybody want a...
Cc: [email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ReSent-Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: anybody want a...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

At 3:35 PM -0400 6/18/11, John Ioannidis wrote:
>how appropriate would it be to scan it and make it available as a pdf?
>I volunteer to do the scanning.
>
>/ji
>
>On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Paul Wexelblat
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> KL10 Maintenence Handbook
>>
>> EK-KL10-HB-001
>>
>> (1975-1977)
>>
>> (about 8.5 x 4 inches) 103 pages
>>
>> (Last page lists the DEC Diagnosis Center (Princeton)
>> 609-452-2940, Ext 440 )
>>
>> :)
>>
>> --
>> --
>> ...wex
>>
>>

Sounds good to me, please send address - I'd like the original back, though. (I'll pay postage, as I've had a prior request for the hard copy.)
--
--
...wex

18-Jun-2011 18:22:22-PDT,2834;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:22:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from smtp149.dfw.emailsrvr.com ([67.192.241.149]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from smtp14.relay.dfw1a.emailsrvr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
by smtp14.relay.dfw1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C5E18299338;
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox 2.7.4
X-Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
by smtp14.relay.dfw1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C10272991D3;
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: OK
X-Received: from smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com (smtp192.mex07a.mlsrvr.com [67.192.133.192])
by smtp14.relay.dfw1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTPS id 592FC29903B;
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: from 34093-MBX-C17.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.44]) by
DFW1HUB14.mex07a.mlsrvr.com ([192.168.1.210]) with mapi; Sat, 18 Jun 2011
20:02:53 -0500
From: David Boyes <[email protected]>
To: Paul Wexelblat <[email protected]>
CC: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:02:50 -0500
Subject: Re: anybody want a...
Thread-Topic: anybody want a...
Thread-Index: AcwuHJ1JKgj5i9hKTCi4wHCiu5EQFw==
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<p06240803ca227eb66677@[10.0.1.3]>
In-Reply-To: <p06240803ca227eb66677@[10.0.1.3]>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
acceptlanguage: en-US
x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-10.0.0.4152-6.500.1024-18206.004
x-tm-as-result: No--33.055600-8.000000-31
x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: No
x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
ReSent-Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: anybody want a...
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Me! I'd love it as a KL just came out of nowhere and into my garage...

On Jun 18, 2011, at 15:16, "Paul Wexelblat" <[email protected]> wrote=
:

> KL10 Maintenence Handbook
>=20
> EK-KL10-HB-001
>=20
> (1975-1977)
>=20
> (about 8.5 x 4 inches) 103 pages
>=20
> (Last page lists the DEC Diagnosis Center (Princeton)
> 609-452-2940, Ext 440 )
>=20
> :)
>=20
> --=20
> --
> ...wex
>=20

18-Jun-2011 19:56:17-PDT,1722;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.243]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:15:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from omta24.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.76])
by qmta13.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id xeD41g0021ei1Bg5DeFFm1; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 02:15:15 +0000
X-Received: from [10.0.1.3] ([24.62.230.208])
by omta24.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id xeFD1g00E4WRhhk3keFFLh; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 02:15:15 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240810ca230b9a6bf4@[10.0.1.3]>
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:15:12 -0400
To: TOPS <[email protected]>
From: P&G Wexelblat <[email protected]>
Subject: The KL Maint Handbook
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
ReSent-Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:55:53 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: The KL Maint Handbook
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

John Ioannidis <[email protected]> has offered to PDFicate it and make it available

I'll let him post when and where - I'm sending it on Monday

(Afterwards I'll get it back and send it to the first responder to
whom I've promised the hard copy.)

--
P.M. Wexelblat PhD
Erst of the Dept. of Computer Science
University of Massachusetts Lowell
One University Ave
Lowell, MA 01854

12-Jul-2011 23:35:26-PDT,3937;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 6 Jul 2011 18:17:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Wed, 06 Jul 2011 20:16:53 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 21:16:52 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: KLH10 front-end reload??
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:34:39 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: KLH10 front-end reload??
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

From Nov of 09, I found this little tidbit, as I am trying to bring up
panda klh on a couple of new machines, running ubuntu,
and much faster... so!! as Carl Lydick of usenet would say, better do
some research first so you don't ask the same question 2o
times!
Thanks for this Tom and Mark!! I will be cranking on this when my otehr
tasks are done cause I got all the DTE errors and symtpoms
described below... on dual and quad cpu boxes.
thanks guys!!
bob

Mark Crispin wrote:
> KLH10 implements enough for the front end DTE protocol for TOPS-20 to
> think that it is talking to a front end, albeit one with just a CTY
> (no KLINIK, DL11 lines, or DECnet).
>
> There is a keepalive timer in both TOPS-20 (to reboot the front end
> when the front end crashes) and in RSX-11F (to reboot TOPS-20 when it
> crashes).
>
> The front end also keeps time well enough to set TOPS-20's clock
> following a crash-reboot; this is superceded in KLH10 as the timebase
> instructions get the time from the host OS. In addition, Panda
> monitors try to run a program called TIMCHK which will synchronize
> with NTP servers.
>
> So, what happened was that the DTE protocol stopped for some reason.
> TOPS-20 tried to reboot the front end in an attempt to get it going,
> but of course that was futile.
>
> Here's something that may help:
>
> On some Linux systems the esoteric real-time interrupt mechanisms in
> KLH10 don't work well. So, it may be necessary to set KLH10_ITIME_SYNC
> instead of the default KLH10_ITIME_INTRP. Note that doing so will make
> KLH10 burn much more CPU on the host system.
>
> Usually, though, if you need to do this, it becomes pretty obvious at
> once, with nasty DTE errors from KLH10 shortly after booting (and any
> time you type on the CTY).
>
> One reason why I haven't upgraded Lingling's host CPU is that most of
> the newer machines that I've run KLH10 on have required doing this.
> It's quite annoying.
>
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
>> Tommy Timesharing hung earlier today; it had been up over a 175 days.
>> I got an error around 1:27PM-EST that the front end had hung and was
>> rebooted. By the time I noticed at 4:08, the system was completely
>> wedged.

--
We'll see said the zen master

12-Jul-2011 23:35:28-PDT,1605;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:35:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 8 Jul 2011 14:57:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Fri, 08 Jul 2011 16:57:39 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 17:57:38 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: help, - KLH10_ITIME_SYNC
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:34:57 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: help, - KLH10_ITIME_SYNC
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

dumb question, been wearing a tie too long
but how do I set KLH10_ITIME_SYNC vice INTRP so compile and fix my DTE
problem?
thanks
bob

--
We'll see said the zen master

12-Jul-2011 23:35:34-PDT,2841;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:35:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173005pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.5]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2011 14:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173005.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 16:02:54 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 17:02:53 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: anotther squawk for help
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: anotther squawk for help
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

I am trying to run Panda distro of precompiled KLH10 on a quad CPU 9550
box under Ubuntu 10.4
I get the string of DTE error indications after loading TOPS20, that
seem to indicate the ITIME_INTRP as indicated in my last yell for help.
I have been poring over makefiles, source, dug out my C manuals, and now
I am confused as to what to do.
Mark's note indicated I need to use ITIME_SYNC, the make file section
pasted in here seems to indicate I nee to use ITIME_INTRP with
my kinda quick 9550 and AMD boxes.
Can someone tell me which is correct, and how to ensure I envoke the
proper parameters when I compile?
thanks
bob

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000167 EndHTML:0000002185
StartFragment:0000000457 EndFragment:0000002169

# Subflags for fully synchronous time emulation

# These are good for debugging, or on a slow machine.

TSYNCFLAGS = \

-DKLH10_RTIME_SYNCH=1 \

-DKLH10_ITIME_SYNCH=1 \

-DKLH10_QTIME_SYNCH=1

# Subflags for fully OS-interrupt-driven time emulation

# These are best for high performance on a fast machine.

TINTFLAGS = \

-DKLH10_RTIME_OSGET=1 \

-DKLH10_ITIME_INTRP=1 \

-DKLH10_QTIME_OSVIRT=1

# Subflags for synchronous polling versions of certain device drivers.

# These are good for debugging.

DSYNCFLAGS = \

-DKLH10_IMPIO_INT=0 \

-DKLH10_CTYIO_INT=0

--
We'll see said the zen master

12-Jul-2011 23:36:04-PDT,1598;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2011 17:37:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 19:36:55 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2011 20:36:55 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: KLH10 and Panda Distoros
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: KLH10 and Panda Distoros
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Has anyone updated the make files for GCC? or to use usr/include/sys
vice usr/inlcude/asm?
thanks

--
We'll see said the zen master

12-Jul-2011 23:36:26-PDT,5375;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173013pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.13]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 11:51:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173013.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 13:50:57 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 14:50:56 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: tops20 klh10
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: tops20 klh10
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Does anyone have a hint on how I can fix this:
10-Jul-2011 11:36:15 SYSJB1: Job 1: $NETSRV
10-Jul-2011 11:36:15 SYSJB1: Job 3: $MMAILR
10-Jul-2011 11:36:15 SYSJB1: Job 5: $FTS
10-Jul-2011 11:36:15 SYSJB1: Job 5: FTS>TAKE FTS.CMD
10-Jul-2011 11:36:15 SYSJB1: Job 5: [FTS20: FTS event 38: spooler started]

before I can Ctl-C, this output starts, and I can never see any
indication that my ctl-C or login command are accepted.

[DTE: Bad to-10 BP 0,,0][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 3329][dte_10xfrbeg:
out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg:
10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt
left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
442200,,733000][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 1014][dte_10xfrbeg: out of
data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 0,,0][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left:
4086][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP
0,,0][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 3329][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I
bit][DTE: Bad to-10 BP 0,,0][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left:
4086][dte_10xfrbeg: out of data, no I bit]

[DTE: Bad to-10 BP 0,,0][dte_10xfrbeg: 10cnt left: 3329][dte_10xfrbeg:
out of data, no I bit

thanks
bob

--
We'll see said the zen master

12-Jul-2011 23:36:39-PDT,2129;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173009pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.9]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173009.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:19:52 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:19:51 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Can I find out who is running Panda on what kind of box and which OS?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:30 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Can I find out who is running Panda on what kind of box and
which OS?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

I am digging around, probably have too many systems, to see which
version, which OS, I have on what hardware.
Right now I have Panda on:
Gigaabyte board with intel 9550 3.0GHZ running Ubutu 10.4, and I have
the cty not repsonding problem (precompiled KLH10-2.0h, recompiled 4
different ways)
Intel 1U PIII, I have to check the speed, Ubuntu 10.4, ditto the CTY
issue using panda distro KLH10-2.4h, precompiled
164LX, netbsd (gotta check the versions)

and digging through my other boxes.

Thanks for any info!
bob smith

--
We'll see said the zen master

12-Jul-2011 23:36:55-PDT,1696;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173005pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.5]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173005.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:26:44 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:26:43 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: SMP KLH = LCS KLH10
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: SMP KLH = LCS KLH10
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Does any one have an SMP KLH up and running?
if so, can you give some details?

Does anyone have an LCS KLH instantiation - ethernet as the couple?
If so can you give some details?

thanks!
bob smith

--
We'll see said the zen master

13-Jul-2011 00:53:23-PDT,1170;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from mailbackend.panix.com ([166.84.1.89]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 00:52:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5])
by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840A63307E
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 03:52:20 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662)
id 92E3C2425B; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 03:52:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: KLH10 tun/tap usage?
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 03:52:20 -0400 (EDT)

I need to set up an IP tunnel on my iMac running OS X.6 ("Snow Leopard") in
order to share the single interface on the system, and I'm having trouble
locating documentation on how to do that.

kn10-kl was compiled with tunneling turned on (I think--Makefile.mk contains
the incantation -DKLH10_NET_TUN=SYS_FREEBSD). Even if I have to re-compile, I
still need to know how to make the system talk to the host Ethernet interface.

Thanks,
Rich
14-Jul-2011 06:15:04-PDT,3343;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from adrilankha.hactrn.net ([147.28.0.19]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:13:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from minas-ithil.hactrn.net (c-66-30-16-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [66.30.16.106])
(using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(Client CN "nargothrond.hactrn.net", Issuer "Grunchweather Associates" (verified OK))
by adrilankha.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73E29BC2C;
Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:13:53 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from minas-ithil.hactrn.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by minas-ithil.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617F63094A0;
Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:13:58 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:13:58 -0400
From: Rob Austein <[email protected]>
To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: KLH10 tun/tap usage?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.5 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI)
MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka")
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Message-Id: <[email protected]>

At Wed, 13 Jul 2011 03:52:20 -0400 (EDT), Rich Alderson wrote:
>
> I need to set up an IP tunnel on my iMac running OS X.6 ("Snow Leopard") in
> order to share the single interface on the system, and I'm having trouble
> locating documentation on how to do that.
>
> kn10-kl was compiled with tunneling turned on (I think--Makefile.mk contains
> the incantation -DKLH10_NET_TUN=SYS_FREEBSD). Even if I have to re-compile, I
> still need to know how to make the system talk to the host Ethernet interface.

I wrote the original /dev/tun support for the KLH-10, although I think
it mutated a bit afterwards. /dev/tun is a software interface device,
sort of like the network interface equivalent of a pty, on FreeBSD and
related systems. It doesn't appear to be part of OS X, but there's a
Sourceforge project which claims to provide it, see
http://tuntaposx.sourceforge.net/download.xhtml (caveat: I have not
tried this).

/dev/tun looks like a point-to-point link (it was originally written
to support a userland PPP implementation on FreeBSD), and that's the
basic model I used for it with the KLH-10 support code.

So the basic idea is to turn on IP forwarding in the Unix kernel and
configure the Unix machine to think the KLH-10 is at the other end of
a point to point link. So the KLH-10 in this configuration doesn't
know anything about the Unix machine's Ethernet interface, and the
rest of the world thinks the Unix machine is a router connecting to
the subnet where the KLH-10 lives.

This scheme has its good points and bad points. The bad part is that
you have to set up a subnet, set up routing to point to it, etc. The
good part is that the KLH-10's job becomes very simple, and it's
trivial to things like using packet filtering on the Unix machine to
protect the KLH-10.

At this point it's been long enough since I looked at that code, much
less used it, that I can't really supply step-by-step instructions,
even assuming that none of the changes after I wrote it changed
anything. Your best bet is likely to be the source code.

Hope this helps.
15-Jul-2011 18:07:25-PDT,1408;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 18:06:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:06:15 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 21:06:14 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: fingers crossed, might have some success
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Thanks to help from lots of folks, I think, fingers crossed, I have a
good compile, and install
of KLH10 with Panda distor of TOPS20 and no locked up console.
running on dual Opteron 252 2.6GHZ cpus.
I am going to let it run over night, got my first hourly checkpoint from
the logger.
I will send the details of what I tweaked, after I test this approach on
my quad, running at 3GHZ,
bob

--
We'll see said the zen master

16-Jul-2011 09:54:09-PDT,3544;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from vms173019pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.19]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:53:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173019.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 11:52:56 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:52:55 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: So Cool!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

SO COOL! Thanks Mark, Ken, Doug et al!
Waiting for spackle to dry, waiting for paint to dry, I had time to do
some more testing.
Dual CPU 1U box, Two CPUs, 2.63GHZ, AMD Opteron 252, forgot to see hoow
much memory,
either 4 or 8 GB each, each running an instantiation of KLH10, Panda
distro of Tops 20, same
compile, individual copies of the executables, individual directories,
individual copies of RH.

Performance of each cpu was 99-101 percent of processor time according
to top
Performance of the system, serving web pages under ubuntu, a few
terminals logged in to
ubuntu, no noticable performance hit.
COOL. ran over night with one

Waiting for paint to dry, spackle to dry on another wall, and decided to
try my quad cpu box.
Q9550, 8GB I think, 3.0GHZ or so o'clocked, ubuntu 10.4

Same deal as above, 3 instantiations, all separate RH drive containers,
directories,
and executables.

here is a copy of the top output.

SWEEET!!! now for the networking piecers and then to pursue smp....
no noticable impact on the system performance, sure just concole login but
sweeeeeet!

================================================
top - 12:32:55 up 1:37, 5 users, load average: 2.90, 1.79, 0.84
Tasks: 239 total, 4 running, 235 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
Cpu(s): 74.9%us, 0.3%sy, 0.0%ni, 24.8%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si,
0.0%st
Mem: 8195520k total, 3892264k used, 4303256k free, 630392k buffers
Swap: 11890680k total, 0k used, 11890680k free, 2494096k cached

PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
3505 root 20 0 37428 33m 32m R 100 0.4 7:07.26 kn10-kl
3559 root 20 0 37428 33m 32m R 100 0.4 4:21.53 kn10-kl
3607 root 20 0 37428 33m 32m R 100 0.4 2:22.20 kn10-kl
3433 bob 20 0 213m 21m 10m S 0 0.3 0:02.09
gnome-terminal
3648 root 20 0 19356 1516 1060 R 0 0.0 0:00.19 top
1 root 20 0 23840 2068 1272 S 0 0.0 0:00.81 init
2 root 20 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 kthreadd
3 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 migration/0
4 root 20 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 ksoftirqd/0
5 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 watchdog/0
6 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 migration/1
7 root 20 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 ksoftirqd/1
8 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 watchdog/1

--
We'll see said the zen master

16-Jul-2011 19:10:15-PDT,4223;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from best.joss.com ([208.72.87.198]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 19:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by best.joss.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D06FF54E44;
Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at joss.com
Received: from best.joss.com ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (best.joss.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id yqOw4dWvie42; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [10.28.94.89] (mobile-198-228-192-216.mycingular.net [198.228.192.216])
by best.joss.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9E46F54E3D;
Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:09:07 -0400 (EDT)
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8J2)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Cc: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8J2)
From: Doug Humphrey <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: So Cool!
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:09:01 -0400
To: Bob Smith <[email protected]>

Sounds like a kid with a new old toy :-)

Very sweet!
Doug

Sent from my iPhone
(doug joins the modern world)

On Jul 16, 2011, at 12:52 PM, bob smith <[email protected]> wrote:

> SO COOL! Thanks Mark, Ken, Doug et al!
> Waiting for spackle to dry, waiting for paint to dry, I had time to do som=
e more testing.
> Dual CPU 1U box, Two CPUs, 2.63GHZ, AMD Opteron 252, forgot to see hoow mu=
ch memory,
> either 4 or 8 GB each, each running an instantiation of KLH10, Panda distr=
o of Tops 20, same
> compile, individual copies of the executables, individual directories, ind=
ividual copies of RH.
>=20
> Performance of each cpu was 99-101 percent of processor time according to t=
op
> Performance of the system, serving web pages under ubuntu, a few terminals=
logged in to
> ubuntu, no noticable performance hit.
> COOL. ran over night with one
>=20
> Waiting for paint to dry, spackle to dry on another wall, and decided to t=
ry my quad cpu box.
> Q9550, 8GB I think, 3.0GHZ or so o'clocked, ubuntu 10.4
>=20
> Same deal as above, 3 instantiations, all separate RH drive containers, di=
rectories,
> and executables.
>=20
> here is a copy of the top output.
>=20
> SWEEET!!! now for the networking piecers and then to pursue smp....
> no noticable impact on the system performance, sure just concole login but=

> sweeeeeet!
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> top - 12:32:55 up 1:37, 5 users, load average: 2.90, 1.79, 0.84
> Tasks: 239 total, 4 running, 235 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
> Cpu(s): 74.9%us, 0.3%sy, 0.0%ni, 24.8%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.=
0%st
> Mem: 8195520k total, 3892264k used, 4303256k free, 630392k buffers
> Swap: 11890680k total, 0k used, 11890680k free, 2494096k cached
>=20
> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
> 3505 root 20 0 37428 33m 32m R 100 0.4 7:07.26 kn10-kl
> 3559 root 20 0 37428 33m 32m R 100 0.4 4:21.53 kn10-kl
> 3607 root 20 0 37428 33m 32m R 100 0.4 2:22.20 kn10-kl
> 3433 bob 20 0 213m 21m 10m S 0 0.3 0:02.09 gnome-terminal=

> 3648 root 20 0 19356 1516 1060 R 0 0.0 0:00.19 top
> 1 root 20 0 23840 2068 1272 S 0 0.0 0:00.81 init
> 2 root 20 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 kthreadd
> 3 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 migration/0
> 4 root 20 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 ksoftirqd/0
> 5 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 watchdog/0
> 6 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 migration/1
> 7 root 20 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.01 ksoftirqd/1
> 8 root RT 0 0 0 0 S 0 0.0 0:00.00 watchdog/1
>=20
> --=20
> We'll see said the zen master
>=20
17-Jul-2011 17:26:34-PDT,1130;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from vms173017pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.17]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 17:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173017.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 19:24:55 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:24:54 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.19)
Gecko/20110420 SeaMonkey/2.0.14
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Might have repeatable success!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I have a couple of folks doing some external testing for me, if that
works, I will declare another KLH online.
Thanks guys!!
bb

--
We'll see said the zen master

29-Jul-2011 10:22:08-PDT,1188;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from vms173007pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.7]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173007.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:14:34 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:14:33 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706
Firefox/5.0 SeaMonkey/2.2
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: off topic, but
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

digital related = maybe.
Tour de France riders, some at least had a number with "digital" under
the number
any one know why?
Have not been able to find out why on the net yet. still searching.
thanks
bob

--
We'll see said the zen master

2-Aug-2011 09:28:57-PDT,3632;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from vms173013pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.13]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from MacPro.local ([unknown] [96.231.203.19])
by vms173013.mailsrvcs.net
(Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009))
with ESMTPA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 11:12:13 -0500 (CDT)
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:12:12 -0400
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
Reply-to: Bob Smith <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706
Firefox/5.0 SeaMonkey/2.2
MIME-version: 1.0
To: TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: KLH10 solid with PANDA TOPS 20 - here is what I promised
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:28:12 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: KLH10 solid with PANDA TOPS 20 - here is what I promised
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

I got help from Mark with this, and pointers from many other folks - the
problem I was having
was the KLH10 console would not respond, it would some times start to
respond and then go off
to never never land.

here is the snippet from the Makefile.mk that I have used to KLH10 on my
multi-processor systems:
base-kl:
$(MAKER) kn10-kl $(DPROCS_KL) $(BASE_UTILS) uexbconv \
"SRC = $(SRC)" \
"CC = $(CC)" \
"CFLAGS = $(CFLAGS) $(CFLAGS_AUX)" \
"LDFLAGS = $(LDFLAGS)" \
"LIBS = $(LIBS)" \
"CENVFLAGS = $(CENVFLAGS)" \
"CONFFLAGS = \
-DKLH10_CPU_KLX=1 \
-DKLH10_SYS_T20=1 \
-DKLH10_EVHS_INT=1 \
-DKLH10_DEV_DPNI20=1 \
-DKLH10_DEV_DPTM03=1 \
-DKLH10_DEV_DPRPXX=1 \
-DKLH10_MEM_SHARED=1 \
-DKLH10_RTIME_OSGET=1 \
-DKLH10_ITIME_SYNC=1 \
-DKLH10_CTYIO_INT=0 \
-DKLH10_APRID_SERIALNO=3600 \
-DKLH10_CLIENT=\\\"KLXN\\\" \
$(CONFFLAGS_AUX) "

I also tweaked the dvlights file to point to the current ubuntu io src
files area, to alleviate that complaining about no
oi.h file.

KLAXON, as I call it, does take up 99 % of one CPU under Ubuntu, but
with 2, 4, or more cpus running at
700MHZ to 3.06GHZ there seems no perceivable user impact. This is true
of discrete CPUs, Core 2 Duo,
Core 2 quad, AMD Opterons, and Pentium D systems that I have tested.

I kinda cheated a little, running discrete directories with all the
executibles and RPs so there was no potential for
conflicts other than host CPU and host Memory resources.

I have not yet tried running the same emulator from different console
windows, or copies of the same emulator
with shared RP... but sure would like to see if I can run a cluster like
emulation.

Thanks for all the help guys. If you want to see it, 96.231.203.18 is
the ip.
If you want an account, the system is up as long as Pepco keeps the
outages under an hour.
thanks !!!!
bob

--
We'll see said the zen master

31-Aug-2011 12:54:08-PDT,1991;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:53:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from lyra.its.uu.se ([130.238.7.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at uu.se
X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 lyra.its.uu.se EA36738EBE
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=uu.se; s=centralsmtp;
t=1314816325; [email protected];
bh=Gpc1yDHRZHizFeNujMNPZdAhvBI+G3TkW1lEQ8oiRCQ=;
h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:
Content-Transfer-Encoding;
b=sqX65DRxcM4Ke7aWT6/wAtf8zEGdavALOPWKvDMSJ+TgWz29O8X+S6yX6lTFL9hdF
crZJJfAcRrk4OHrghcAw3MVZkFN1lVUxeoTBJpOjSPuoT9Bh9IEzYVCHaVr6XBC8X5
cNViHMVBYSsFM2x+PKOsZU32RSogcgS42coNQae4=
X-Received: from buzz.victor.se (81-234-87-113-no38.tbcn.telia.com [81.234.87.113])
(using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by lyra.its.uu.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EA36738EBE;
Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:45:24 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:45:24 +0200
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:6.0.1) Gecko/20110830 Thunderbird/6.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Scales?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Does anyone know (roughly) the weight of a KL10 system? And/or RP06/RP07=20
drives?

Thanks,
-- Bj=F6rn

31-Aug-2011 12:59:46-PDT,2068;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:59:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:58:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Scales?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-283903968-1314820634=:8224"
Content-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:59:31 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--0-283903968-1314820634=:8224
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Content-ID: <[email protected]>

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Bj=C3=B6rn Victor wrote:
> Does anyone know (roughly) the weight of a KL10 system? And/or RP06/RP07=
=3D20
> drives?

From=20the DECSYSTEM-20 Site Preparation Guide:

KL10:=093600lb / 1630kg
KS10: 590lb / 267kg
RM03:=09 430lb / 195kg
RP06:=09 600lb / 272kg
TU45:=09 640lb / 290kg

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
--0-283903968-1314820634=:8224--

31-Aug-2011 15:14:59-PDT,2346;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix, from userid 1009)
id 3720A31C40F5; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:06:01 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on www.pfarrell.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00
autolearn=no version=3.2.5
X-Received: from [172.16.4.67] (Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67])
by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6B431C40DF;
Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:06:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:05:59 -0400
From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:6.0) Gecko/20110812 Thunderbird/6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
CC: =?UTF-8?B?QmrDtnJuIFZpY3Rvcg==?= <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Subject: Re: Scales?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:14:34 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 8/31/11 3:58 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> From the DECSYSTEM-20 Site Preparation Guide:
>
> KL10: 3600lb / 1630kg
> KS10: 590lb / 267kg
> RM03: 430lb / 195kg
> RP06: 600lb / 272kg
> TU45: 640lb / 290kg

Mark,

Are these shipping weights? or net weights of the gear itself?

My guess is that they are shipping weights but its pure guess

The KL and RP06 numbers feel about right, but the KS number seems way
high. How could a KS weigh that much?

-- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/

31-Aug-2011 15:16:10-PDT,1606;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:15:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>,
TOPS-20 Hackers and Yackers <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Scales?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Pat Farrell wrote:
> Are these shipping weights? or net weights of the gear itself?

As far as I know, those are the weights of the gear itself.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

31-Aug-2011 16:01:21-PDT,4398;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from ausc60ps301.us.dell.com ([143.166.148.206]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:23:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Loopcount0: from 10.152.216.25
Subject: Re: Scales?
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--632712452
From: John Francini <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:23:40 -0400
Cc: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>,
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
To: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:00:57 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

--Apple-Mail-2--632712452
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii

Yes, that's about right. An empty rack of that vintage weighs around 100 =
lbs, and Digital never made any lightweight gear. Heck, the Dell racks =
we're using here are around 150 lbs empty, and have a maximum weight =
limit of 2500 lbs fully loaded with 42U of servers & storage, so I can =
see those weights being about right.

john

On 31 Aug 2011, at 18:05, Pat Farrell wrote:

> On 8/31/11 3:58 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:
>> =46rom the DECSYSTEM-20 Site Preparation Guide:
>>=20
>> KL10: 3600lb / 1630kg
>> KS10: 590lb / 267kg
>> RM03: 430lb / 195kg
>> RP06: 600lb / 272kg
>> TU45: 640lb / 290kg
>=20
> Mark,
>=20
> Are these shipping weights? or net weights of the gear itself?
>=20
> My guess is that they are shipping weights but its pure guess
>=20
> The KL and RP06 numbers feel about right, but the KS number seems way =
high. How could a KS weigh that much?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/
>=20

--Apple-Mail-2--632712452
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Yes, =
that's about right. An <i>empty rack </i>of that vintage weighs around =
100 lbs, and Digital never made any lightweight gear.  Heck, the =
Dell racks we're using here are around 150 lbs empty, and have a maximum =
weight limit of 2500 lbs fully loaded with 42U of servers & storage, =
so I can see those weights being about =
right.<div><br></div><div>john</div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br><div>=
<div>On 31 Aug 2011, at 18:05, Pat Farrell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On =
8/31/11 3:58 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=46rom =
the DECSYSTEM-20 Site Preparation Guide:<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">KL10: =
   3600lb / 1630kg<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">KS10:    590lb / =
 267kg<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">RM03: =
    430lb /  195kg<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">RP06:     600lb / =
 272kg<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">TU45: =
    640lb / =
 290kg<br></blockquote><br>Mark,<br><br>Are these shipping weights? =
or net weights of the gear itself?<br><br>My guess is that they are =
shipping weights but its pure guess<br><br>The KL and RP06 numbers feel =
about right, but the KS number seems way high. How could a KS weigh that =
much?<br><br><br><br>-- Pat Farrell <a =
href=3D"http://www.pfarrell.com/">http://www.pfarrell.com/</a><br><br></di=
v></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-2--632712452--

31-Aug-2011 17:25:41-PDT,2376;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from asmtpout014.mac.com ([17.148.16.89]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
X-Received: from [192.168.222.250]
(c-98-234-52-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.52.100])
by asmtp014.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u4-20.01
64bit (built Nov 21 2010))
with ESMTPSA id <[email protected]>; Wed,
31 Aug 2011 17:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure
engine=2.50.10432:5.4.6813,1.0.211,0.0.0000
definitions=2011-08-31_08:2011-08-31,2011-08-31,1970-01-01 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0
ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam
adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=6.0.2-1012030000 definitions=main-1108310315
Cc: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>, Mark Crispin <[email protected]>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Message-id: <[email protected]>
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]>
To: John Francini <[email protected]>
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Scales?
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:01:55 -0700
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936)
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:25:12 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

>> How could a KS weigh that much? [590lb]

The 36inch CRT TV I got rid of recently weighed about 200lb, and it
was mostly glass and vacuum rather than steel, and well as being
smaller overall than a KS. 590lb doesn't seem unlikely...

BillW

31-Aug-2011 17:28:45-PDT,1916;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:28:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:28:19 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:28:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]>
cc: John Francini <[email protected]>, Pat Farrell <[email protected]>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Subject: Re: Scales?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:28:29 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
> The 36inch CRT TV I got rid of recently weighed about 200lb, and it
> was mostly glass and vacuum rather than steel, and well as being
> smaller overall than a KS. 590lb doesn't seem unlikely...

I think that the bulk of the weight of a CRT is lead.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

31-Aug-2011 18:58:53-PDT,2515;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:58:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.59.212]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from omta24.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.76])
by qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id TC9a1h0081ei1Bg5EDu5vF; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 01:54:05 +0000
X-Received: from [10.0.1.3] ([24.62.230.208])
by omta24.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast
id TDu11h00V4WRhhk3kDu3EJ; Thu, 01 Sep 2011 01:54:05 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240806ca849569f3f5@[10.0.1.3]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:53:59 -0400
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>,
"William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]>
From: Paul Wexelblat <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Scales?
Cc: John Francini <[email protected]>, Pat Farrell <[email protected]>,
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Victor?= <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:58:21 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

At 5:28 PM -0700 8/31/11, Mark Crispin wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>>The 36inch CRT TV I got rid of recently weighed about 200lb, and it
>>was mostly glass and vacuum rather than steel, and well as being
>>smaller overall than a KS. 590lb doesn't seem unlikely...
>
>I think that the bulk of the weight of a CRT is lead.
>
>-- Mark --
>
>http://panda.com/tops-20
>TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

Could be the vacuum that weighs so much...

Otherwise, why is the very high altitude of the atmosphere, near vacuum, called the Heavyside layer?

--
--
...wex

31-Aug-2011 23:01:39-PDT,2874;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:00:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from velox.its.uu.se ([130.238.7.74]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at uu.se
X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 velox.its.uu.se 360C034C86
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=uu.se; s=centralsmtp;
t=1314856772; [email protected];
bh=WiG9aFPwjnfv18Ki9PP25b+FVjqBKaif5Db1pyR7dw0=;
h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:
In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;
b=NEcAaPKJ4qVH5o5Z4HM/qaHKwpBsRh1P3j1WnbFwi44JvGaEWoaRYt2Dp3dE8ztB/
t5oq3H5h2UjxB8exY2YXC57n+V7hi1LIx7ZsFtxmsVm6yj5hZgAp1bR1DOLTBL/Lg6
BADmiKoiQh6aS0lr7mmNJqteAoQdz0eftSnrOGJY=
X-Received: from buzz.victor.se (81-234-87-113-no38.tbcn.telia.com [81.234.87.113])
(using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by velox.its.uu.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 360C034C86;
Thu, 1 Sep 2011 07:59:31 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 07:59:31 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?QmrDtnJuIFZpY3Rvcg==?= <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:6.0.1) Gecko/20110830 Thunderbird/6.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
CC: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Scales?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:00:33 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 2011-08-31 21:58, Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Bj=C3=B6rn Victor wrote:
>> Does anyone know (roughly) the weight of a KL10 system? And/or
>> RP06/RP07=3D20
>> drives?
>
> From the DECSYSTEM-20 Site Preparation Guide:
>
> KL10: 3600lb / 1630kg
> KS10: 590lb / 267kg
> RM03: 430lb / 195kg
> RP06: 600lb / 272kg
> TU45: 640lb / 290kg

Wonderful, thanks, even with the source! I'm going to offer our fresh CS=20
students a subject for a report writing exercise: compare the computer=20
in the basement, which was used by the fresh CS students in 1984, with=20
the computers you are using, wrt. computing power, electrical power=20
requirements, weight, price, etc. Analyse the developments. :-)

-- Bj=C3=B6rn

31-Aug-2011 23:50:47-PDT,2502;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:50:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix, from userid 1009)
id 42B2131C40F8; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 02:36:58 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on www.pfarrell.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.8 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00,
MISSING_HEADERS autolearn=no version=3.2.5
X-Received: from [172.16.4.67] (Patrick-Farrells-MacBook-Pro.local [172.16.4.67])
by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C813931C40E0;
Thu, 1 Sep 2011 02:36:57 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 02:36:57 -0400
From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:6.0.1) Gecko/20110830 Thunderbird/6.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
CC: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Scales?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 23:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 9/1/11 1:59 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Victor wrote:
> Wonderful, thanks, even with the source! I'm going to offer our fresh=20
> CS students a subject for a report writing exercise: compare the=20
> computer in the basement, which was used by the fresh CS students in=20
> 1984, with the computers you are using, wrt. computing power,=20
> electrical power requirements, weight, price, etc. Analyse the=20
> developments. :-)
That is a cool idea for an assignment.

Do they get extra credit for writing that an RP06 was the size of a=20
large home washing machine, or that the TU45 was a completely unreliable=20
piece of junk from the day it was installed at a site until it was=20
removed and crushed?

--=20
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

1-Sep-2011 08:56:30-PDT,2535;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 08:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from lyra.its.uu.se ([130.238.7.73]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 00:27:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at uu.se
X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.3 lyra.its.uu.se 383DE38D10
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=uu.se; s=centralsmtp;
t=1314862068; [email protected];
bh=j0E8MPY3coG3JOFrUN6Fpto6s9WdoHzb5CrsgANj51k=;
h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:
In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;
b=Q8mcOEcg9CUKckiFnEeAFsUgq8ccs0piuRgbm7CgJmW2h4W3wwUPvS9kqIF1FaDSS
SaIStahEDsewz0nQdzPuh4Uqu3RNpfvBBg/ceioV8I6Zqn8a1lyh3In+qYIOCEBQH0
6WRvqYJreaIjON12zb9Lv/VnLA4WpnFWWzoODqzo=
X-Received: from buzz.it.uu.se (buzz.it.uu.se [130.238.11.62])
(using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by lyra.its.uu.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 383DE38D10;
Thu, 1 Sep 2011 09:27:48 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 09:27:47 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?QmrDtnJuIFZpY3Rvcg==?= <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:6.0.1) Gecko/20110830 Thunderbird/6.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Scales?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ReSent-Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 08:55:52 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 2011-09-01 08:36, Pat Farrell wrote:
> Do they get extra credit for writing that an RP06 was the size of a
> large home washing machine,

Don't think so, it's too obvious - there are three there for them to see.

> or that the TU45 was a completely unreliable
> piece of junk from the day it was installed at a site until it was
> removed and crushed?

If they can dig up this info (with references), why not? ;-)

-- Bj=C3=B6rn

1-Sep-2011 12:30:34-PDT,2391;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:30:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mailbackend.panix.com ([166.84.1.89]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 11:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5])
by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB0F34081
for <[email protected]>; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:18:12 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662)
id DBD3524256; Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:18:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <p06240806ca849569f3f5@[10.0.1.3]> (message from Paul Wexelblat
on Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:53:59 -0400)
Subject: Re: Scales?
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <p06240806ca849569f3f5@[10.0.1.3]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:18:12 -0400 (EDT)
ReSent-Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:30:14 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Scales?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:53:59 -0400
> From: Paul Wexelblat <[email protected]>

> At 5:28 PM -0700 8/31/11, Mark Crispin wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:
>>> The 36inch CRT TV I got rid of recently weighed about 200lb, and it
>>> was mostly glass and vacuum rather than steel, and well as being
>>> smaller overall than a KS. 590lb doesn't seem unlikely...

>> I think that the bulk of the weight of a CRT is lead.

> Could be the vacuum that weighs so much...

> Otherwise, why is the very high altitude of the atmosphere, near vacuum,
> called the Heavyside layer?

I think we're getting into dark matter(s) here...

Rich

2-Sep-2011 22:44:59-PDT,2720;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 2 Sep 2011 22:44:39 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from asmtpout017.mac.com ([17.148.16.92]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 2 Sep 2011 21:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
X-Received: from [192.168.222.250]
(c-98-234-52-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.52.100])
by asmtp017.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u4-20.01
64bit (built Nov 21 2010)) with ESMTPSA id <[email protected]>
for [email protected]; Fri, 02 Sep 2011 21:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure
engine=2.50.10432:5.4.6813,1.0.211,0.0.0000
definitions=2011-09-03_01:2011-09-02,2011-09-03,1970-01-01 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0
ipscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam
adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=6.0.2-1012030000 definitions=main-1109020398
Message-id: <[email protected]>
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 21:36:49 -0700
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936)
ReSent-Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 22:44:31 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Back at LIRICS (Long Island Regional Instructional Computing Service;
a tops10 site that served multiple highschools via dialups) there was
a computer club called LICUS (Long Island Computer User Society ?)
which had, as one of the member benefits, an online tutorial for
learning PDP-10 Assembly Language (the "tutor" software (whose name I
don't remember) may have been separate from the macro-10 lessons; I
don't recall whether there were other tutorials.) It had chapters
with quizzes you had to pass before you could go on to the next
chapter, and I recall it being pretty useful.

Does anyone else remember this? Was it perhaps a DECUS-provided
thing, or was it unique to LIRICS/LICUS? Is it still around anywhere?

I was comparing it to the recently-released browser-based javascript
programming tutorial. Someone asked "are there any other similar
tutorials?", which brought back memories...

Thanks
Bill W

3-Sep-2011 11:17:00-PDT,3321;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from asmtpout011.mac.com ([17.148.16.86]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
X-Received: from [10.31.179.160]
(mobile-166-137-136-020.mycingular.net [166.137.136.20])
by asmtp011.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u4-20.01
64bit (built Dec 15 2010)) with ESMTPSA id <[email protected]>
for [email protected]; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 10:28:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure
engine=2.50.10432:5.4.6813,1.0.211,0.0.0000
definitions=2011-09-03_02:2011-09-02,2011-09-03,1970-01-01 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0
ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam
adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=6.0.2-1012030000 definitions=main-1109030211
References: <[email protected]>
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
Message-id: <[email protected]>
Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8L1)
From: John Francini <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 13:28:32 -0400
To: William Chops Westfield <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Somehow that sounds vaguely familiar. Anyone got the DECUS tape images from trailing-edge on their systems?

John

--
John Francini <[email protected]>
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace; that two are called a law firm; and that three or more become a Congress. And by God I have had *this* Congress!" --John Adams

On Sep 3, 2011, at 0:36, "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Back at LIRICS (Long Island Regional Instructional Computing Service; a tops10 site that served multiple highschools via dialups) there was a computer club called LICUS (Long Island Computer User Society ?) which had, as one of the member benefits, an online tutorial for learning PDP-10 Assembly Language (the "tutor" software (whose name I don't remember) may have been separate from the macro-10 lessons; I don't recall whether there were other tutorials.) It had chapters with quizzes you had to pass before you could go on to the next chapter, and I recall it being pretty useful.
>
> Does anyone else remember this? Was it perhaps a DECUS-provided thing, or was it unique to LIRICS/LICUS? Is it still around anywhere?
>
> I was comparing it to the recently-released browser-based javascript programming tutorial. Someone asked "are there any other similar tutorials?", which brought back memories...
>
> Thanks
> Bill W
>
>

3-Sep-2011 12:02:20-PDT,1977;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 12:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mailbackend.panix.com ([166.84.1.89]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 11:35:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5])
by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348EB349F0;
Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:35:17 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: by panix5.panix.com (Postfix, from userid 17662)
id 3623024256; Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:35:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: John Francini <[email protected]>
CC: [email protected], TOPS-20 Distribution: ;, [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from John
Francini on Sat, 03 Sep 2011 13:28:32 -0400)
Subject: Re: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:35:17 -0400 (EDT)
ReSent-Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> From: John Francini <[email protected]>
> Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 13:28:32 -0400

>
> Somehow that sounds vaguely familiar. Anyone got the DECUS tape images from
> trailing-edge on their systems?

Tim got those from me when I was still at XKL. We put them on every system we
sold, so they're on the Toad-1 at the museum.

I think Bill has an account already. PS:<DECUS.*>

Rich

6-Sep-2011 13:24:05-PDT,3365;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:23:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from wmta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.10.5]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:11:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from optonline.net (mstr3_5c.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [10.240.4.197])
by wmta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net
(Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007))
with ESMTP id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 16:11:48 -0400 (EDT)
X-Received: from [10.240.3.215] (Forwarded-For: 75.193.71.70, [10.240.3.215])
by mstr3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Tue, 06 Sep 2011 20:11:47 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 20:11:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
To: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-id: <[email protected]>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Sun Java(tm) System Messenger Express 6.2-9.20 (built Jul 15 2010)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-language: en
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-disposition: inline
X-Accept-Language: en
Priority: normal
References: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: PDP-10 assembler tutorial ?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

B,

I remember LIRICS quite well (260,5: Huntington High) and was a member
of LICUS in the mid-1970's. The tutorial you are talking about was
written by Anthony (Tony) Camas.

Tony had quite a bit of reverence from us back in High School. He was
the author of SCREEN; one of the nicest display based SYSTAT'ing
programs for the Haziltine 2000 that I ever saw Even at 300 baud.
It was one of the reasons I got one of those 'bricks'.

Also, along with Martin C. Horowitz (Marty), he was co-author of the
STAR program, one of the best Star Trek programs for the Haziltine
2000 (this is what Commack South had). I had Marty over my house
many, many, many times times for 'STAR Parties'. He was the famous
owner and operator of the 'Star Chariot', a very nice 1967 Impala.

Tony eventually went to Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI). His
selection of this school was part of the reason I decided to go there.
As of about three years ago, Tony was still contactable via E-mail.

I asked him about getting a copy of STAR. Unfortunately, he did not
have one. I happen to have a print-out of it from Marty, but have
held myself back from scanning it until I get an alpha version of my
Extended Mode FTP server out the door. I have a buffering problem
when doing paged structure stores, but a new job (finally!) has put
some big demands on my time, which makes lengthy debugging sessions
A Problem.

I myself also had a minor program in the LICUS catalog although now I
can't even remember the name of it. Memory (human) is funny that way.

Regards,
--T

8-Dec-2011 10:20:44-PST,1869;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:20:28 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TWENEX.ORG ([192.94.73.36]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:14:55 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:08:18 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <[email protected]>
Subject: Forth on TOPS-20?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:20:05 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Forth on TOPS-20?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

I'm looking for a "new" implementation of Forth for TOPS-20.

Here on twenex.org, we have an implementation called FORTH-10 that
comes with MIDAS assembler source and no other documentation that I
can find. It's not ANS Forth-compliant (not a big deal) and buggy (a
big deal for assembler-challenged me).

I've found MACRO source for FIG-FORTH[1], but it's written to run on
RT-11 or RSX-11M, and doesn't assemble out-of-the-box on TOPS-20.

I've also found source for Caltech Forth[2]. It goes through the
assembler without errors, but I can't get it to link.

(I understand neither FIG-Forth nor Caltech Forth is ANS-compliant
either, but that both served as references when the standard was being
formulated.)

I am going to try to teach myself MACRO, and maybe MIDAS, too, but in
the mean time any tips on Forth for TOPS-20 would be appreciated.

[1]: http://www.forth.org/library/eforth_SOC/eforth_SOC_source/figforth/PDP114TH.ZIP
[2]: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-04/01/43,50361/forth.mac
-------

8-Dec-2011 10:36:42-PST,1937;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:36:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:28:38 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:28:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: David Meyer <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:36:27 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, David Meyer wrote:
> I've found MACRO source for FIG-FORTH[1], but it's written to run on
> RT-11 or RSX-11M, and doesn't assemble out-of-the-box on TOPS-20.

As you discovered, that will not help you. The PDP-11 has a completely
different instruction set from the PDP-10 and a different word size
(16-bit instead of 36-bit).

> I've also found source for Caltech Forth[2]. It goes through the
> assembler without errors, but I can't get it to link.

I took a quick look at it. It has to be lunk with the Fortran library.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to play with it further, but try adding
SYS:FORLIB.REL to your load command.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

8-Dec-2011 11:17:31-PST,1331;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:17:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TWENEX.ORG ([192.94.73.36]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:44:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:29:42 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <[email protected]>
Subject: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:17:16 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
file, like a Unix shell script? Similar to how commands in LOGIN.CMD,
COMMAND.CMD and BATCH.CMD get run automatically, but initiated by the user.
Also like the batch facility, except output goes straight to the user's
monitor.

I don't need variable substitution or flow control, just executing one
or more "pre-canned" commands in sequence.

Thanks.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
[email protected]
-------

8-Dec-2011 11:22:00-PST,1687;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:21:52 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:21:36 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:21:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: David Meyer <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:21:43 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, David Meyer wrote:
> Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
> file, like a Unix shell script?

Yes. It's the DO command. The command files are similar to batch files,
but with an extension of .MIC instead of .CTL. CTRL/A aborts a DO in
progress.

You can also extend the EXEC command language using the PCL facility.
Reads <DOCUMENTATION>PCL.TXT.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

8-Dec-2011 11:36:51-PST,2197;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:36:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from www.pfarrell.com ([70.184.242.241]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:29:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix, from userid 1009)
id 83C0C31C40D4; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 14:29:34 -0500 (EST)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on www.pfarrell.com
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.8 required=6.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00
autolearn=no version=3.2.5
X-Received: from way.pfarrell.com (way.local [172.16.4.67])
by www.pfarrell.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE2831C409F;
Thu, 8 Dec 2011 14:29:34 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:29:33 -0500
From: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
References: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:36:11 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On 12/8/11 1:29 PM, David Meyer wrote:
> Is there a way to get EXEC to run a list of commands stored in an arbitrary
> file, like a Unix shell script? Similar to how commands in LOGIN.CMD,
> COMMAND.CMD and BATCH.CMD get run automatically, but initiated by the user.
> Also like the batch facility, except output goes straight to the user's
> monitor.
>
I think I remember that the "take" command did that.

Also there was PCL for exec, I think CMU started it. Programmable
Command Language. vintage 83?

--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

8-Dec-2011 11:40:35-PST,1736;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:40:30 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:39:25 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:39:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:40:23 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, Pat Farrell wrote:
> I think I remember that the "take" command did that.

TAKE is like a .login or .profile file - it is commands for the EXEC but
can't send input to a program.

DO can send into to a program as well as the EXEC.

> Also there was PCL for exec, I think CMU started it. Programmable
> Command Language. vintage 83?

PCL is to add commands to the EXEC using a scripting language.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

8-Dec-2011 13:02:51-PST,2977;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 13:02:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from asmtpout023.mac.com ([17.148.16.98]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 12:55:53 -0800 (PST)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
X-Received: from [192.168.222.250]
(c-98-234-52-100.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.52.100])
by asmtp023.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01
(7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011))
with ESMTPSA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:55:49 +0000 (GMT)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure
engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110,1.0.211,0.0.0000
definitions=2011-12-08_08:2011-12-08,2011-12-08,1970-01-01 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0
ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam
adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1012030000
definitions=main-1112080218
Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
From: "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <[email protected]>
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:55:48 -0800
Cc: Pat Farrell <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Message-id: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
To: David Meyer <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 13:02:19 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: TOPS-20 "scripts"?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

On Dec 8, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Mark Crispin wrote:
> TAKE is like a .login or .profile file - it is commands for the EXEC but can't send input to a program.

TAKE is like the login.cmd files Dave asked about. It only accepts EXEC commands, and remember that the tops20 exec doesn't support much in the way of conditional execution, parameters, or etc (in contrast to most unix shells or dos .BAT files.) (generally uses .CMD files, I think.)

> DO can send into to a program as well as the EXEC.

IIRC, "DO" is supposed to provide almost the same functionality as batch files, with very similar syntax. (generally uses .MIC files.)

> PCL is to add commands to the EXEC using a scripting language.

PCL is more like TCL; while it's designed to write interactive commands and is intimately integrated with the exec, PCL programs look more like programs and less like just a list of exec commands. (Generally uses .PCL files.)

BillW

8-Dec-2011 15:04:50-PST,2377;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 15:04:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from mail.xkl.com ([192.94.202.37]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 14:31:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: from tardis.xkl.com (mail0.xkl.com [192.94.202.35])
by mail.xkl.com (8.14.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id pB8MV2di012688;
Thu, 8 Dec 2011 14:31:04 -0800
X-Received: from obfuscation.xkl.com (obfuscation.xkl.com [10.10.0.240])
by tardis.xkl.com (8.14.1/8.13.3/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id pB8MV0bY009271;
Thu, 8 Dec 2011 14:31:02 -0800
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:31:00 -0800
From: Ralph Gorin <[email protected]>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
CC: David Meyer <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.64 on 10.1.0.29
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 15:04:14 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

I tried linking forth.mac with sys:forlib/search

It left one undefined global, FLT.2.

I tried linking with the forlib from fortran v6.
No undefined symbols.

For your information, FLT.2 contains the following,
per DDT:

flt.2/ FLTR 2,2
FLT.2+1/ POPJ 17,

I haven't tried running it.

Ralph

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address.

8-Dec-2011 16:53:33-PST,1321;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 16:53:11 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TWENEX.ORG ([192.94.73.36]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2011 15:39:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 15:32:41 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 16:53:03 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> I tried linking forth.mac with sys:forlib/search

> It left one undefined global, FLT.2.

I tried this. I got the same error, but it also produced an .EXE file. The executable runs and starts a Forth interpreter prompt, but very few Forth words are defined. I will try to figure out how to load FORSYS.DAT that comes with the source. (LOAD is NOT defined out-of-the-box!)

--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
[email protected]
-------

9-Dec-2011 13:14:26-PST,1280;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 9 Dec 2011 13:14:00 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from TWENEX.ORG ([192.94.73.36]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Fri, 9 Dec 2011 07:51:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 07:36:02 -0800 (PST)
From: David Meyer <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 13:13:51 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: Forth on TOPS-20?
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

Wow! That's cool. Assembled and linked as-is on twenex.org. In spite
of being incomplete, it seems less buggy than the installed FORTH-10.

I'm just learning Forth myself, but if you'd like to complete
"OZ-Forth", I'd certainly be willing to help test it here.

--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
[email protected]
-------

10-Dec-2011 13:19:25-PST,1804;000000000000
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:18:58 -0800 (PST)
X-Return-Path: <[email protected]>
X-Received: from asmtpout026.mac.com ([17.148.16.101]) by Lingling.Panda.COM with TCP/SMTP; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:37:02 -0800 (PST)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
X-Received: from [192.168.1.52] ([76.24.49.252])
by asmtp026.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01
(7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011))
with ESMTPSA id <[email protected]> for
[email protected]; Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:36:57 -0800 (PST)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure
engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110,1.0.211,0.0.0000
definitions=2011-12-10_05:2011-12-09,2011-12-10,1970-01-01 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0
ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=1 adultscore=0 classifier=spam
adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1012030000
definitions=main-1112100231
From: John Francini <[email protected]>
Subject: Happy DEC-10 day!
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:36:54 -0500
Message-id: <[email protected]>
To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1)
ReSent-Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:18:49 -0800 (PST)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Happy DEC-10 day!
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

It's that time of year again -- 10-Dec-2011.

Happy DEC 10 day!

John Francini

KJOB