11-Jan-2009 11:53:16-PST,3179;000000000000

11-Jan-2009 11:53:16-PST,3179;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:16 -0500
From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Subject: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction?
To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
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I just ran across some interesting interaction between the SIBE% JSYS
and ERJMPR.

As far as I recall, no control transfer in the ERJMP group is ever
supposed to occur unless the process encounters an error in the JSYS
or instruction directly before the ERJMP.

Not so with SIBE%, it seems. It turns out that if the input buffer is
not empty, the ERJMPR is always taken. But the process has does not
seem to have encountered any error, has it? At least the last error
hasn't changed ...

Check out the following program and type while it is asleep. The
process stops at NEMPTY+4 (error path) both on a TVT and a LAT
terminal. Ac1 is always properly filled

TITLE SIBEH

SEARCH MONSYM,MACSYM

SIBEH: movei 1,.fhslf
movei 2,lstrx1
seter%
movei 1,^d5000
disms%
movei 1,.priin
setzb 2,4
sibe%
erjmpr NEMPTY

EMPTY: haltf%
nop
nop

NEMPTY: dmove 3,1
movei 1,.fhslf
geter%
haltf%
nop
nop
END 1,,SIBEH

@execute sibeh
MACRO: SIBEH
LINK: Loading
[LNKXCT SIBEH execution]
@i for
MIC (2): Kept, Background, SLEEP at EOFWPC+1, 0:00:02.8
=> MACRO (1): HALT at NEMPTY+4, 0:00:00.0
@e 1
1/ 400000
@e
2/ SETZ LSTRX1 (2/ 400000,,601405)
@e
3/ LSTRX1 (3/ 601405)
@e
4/ 36
@

11-Jan-2009 12:33:05-PST,1628;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:31:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction?
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The general idea of ERJMP is to make system calls behave like TOPS-10
system calls in having a +1 and +2 return.

In the case of SIBE%/ERJMP, it seems pointless to me for ERJMP to behave
in any other way. If the ERJMP is not taken, then what's the point of
doing a SIBE% other than validating the JFN?

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

11-Jan-2009 15:26:56-PST,3199;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:55:50 -0500
From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction?
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Become more like Tops-10?? Boy that's never occured to me ...

My impression was that the ERJMP/ERCAL functionality was to elminate
the possibility of some errors which would otherwise cause software
interrupts from breaking program control flow. In EFTPSR, I just
about never want a JSYS to blow up--I want control. Another example
(perhaps not good) is that sometimes I need to check for non-existent
pages and putting an ERJMP after an ILDB is one way to do this. There
are others.

So I put lots of ERJMP's everywhere and have lots of code for error
conditions. Perhaps too defensive, I suppose. On the other hand, I
have to be that defensive in order for the new FTP server to more
gracefully handle attacks (and of course, not get broken).

I bumped into this because I got hit with another type of attack ...
Cretins ...

But the point was that the ERJMP gets taken even if there is no error.
That seems counter-intuitive and contradicts what's in JSYS REFERENCE
(section 1.4). It's certainly easy enough to code around.

But it just strikes me as odd somehow...

Mark Crispin wrote:

> The general idea of ERJMP is to make system calls behave like
> TOPS-10 system calls in having a +1 and +2 return.
>
> In the case of SIBE%/ERJMP, it seems pointless to me for ERJMP to
> behave in any other way. If the ERJMP is not taken, then what's the
> point of doing a SIBE% other than validating the JFN?
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>
>

11-Jan-2009 15:33:18-PST,2243;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:31:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SIBE%/ERJMPR Interaction?
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On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> But the point was that the ERJMP gets taken even if there is no error.
> That seems counter-intuitive and contradicts what's in JSYS REFERENCE
> (section 1.4). It's certainly easy enough to code around.

In the case of SIBE/ERJMP, what is the useful behavior?

There are only two possible actions: take the ERJMP, or resume flow at +2.
As a machine instruction, ERJMP is a no-op.

If it works as if you suggest, then it would ERJMP only if the JFN is
invalid (various DESXxx codes; a program bug); otherwise resume at +2
whether or not the buffer is empty.

If it works the way it does, then it ERJMPs if the JFN is invalid or the
buffer is non-empty, or resumes at +2 if the buffer is empty.

The latter behavior seems more useful, given what SIBE is supposed to do.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

28-Jan-2009 19:07:37-PST,1199;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:04:42 -0800
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: OPR failure on panda machine.
To: [email protected]
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Do this:

@ena
$R OPR
OPR>push
semi-operator or operator capability required.

OPR>
^C
$opr
OPR>push

Tops-20 panda EXEC VERSION ...

@POP
OPR>^C

$DISA
the problem is with monitor version 7.1(21733)-4, exec version
7.1(4453)-4, and opr verison 6(7134).

--jsol
-------

28-Jan-2009 19:10:24-PST,1851;000000000001
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OPR does a RSCAN, and whatever occurs after the first word is used as the
command to execute on a PUSH. Try "OPR BASIC".

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> Do this:
>
> @ena
> $R OPR
> OPR>push
> semi-operator or operator capability required.
>
> OPR>
> ^C
> $opr
> OPR>push
>
> Tops-20 panda EXEC VERSION ...
>
> @POP
> OPR>^C
>
> $DISA
> the problem is with monitor version 7.1(21733)-4, exec version
> 7.1(4453)-4, and opr verison 6(7134).
>
> --jsol
> -------
>

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

29-Jan-2009 14:10:40-PST,2718;000000000001
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message
from Mark Crispin on Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:04:45 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine.
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> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:04:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>

> OPR does a RSCAN, and whatever occurs after the first word is used as the
> command to execute on a PUSH. Try "OPR BASIC".

> On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:

>> Do this:

>> @ena
>> $R OPR
>> OPR>push
>> semi-operator or operator capability required.

>> OPR>
>> ^C
>> $opr
>> OPR>push

>> Tops-20 panda EXEC VERSION ...

>> @POP
>> OPR>^C

>> $DISA
>> the problem is with monitor version 7.1(21733)-4, exec version
>> 7.1(4453)-4, and opr verison 6(7134).

What jsol didn't mention in his posting is that he verified through me that
that sequence of commands works as expected on the Toad-1 at PDPplanet before
sending it to this list. The log I sent him follows:

!res *
!r opr
OPR>push

TOPS-20 Command processor 7(5000)-3
!pop
OPR>ex
!res *
!disa
@r opr

17:26:51 --SEMI-OPERATOR or OPERATOR privileges required--
@res *
@opr

17:27:04 --SEMI-OPERATOR or OPERATOR privileges required--
@res *
@ena
!opr
OPR>push

TOPS-20 Command processor 7(5000)-3
!pop
OPR>ex
!

Rich

29-Jan-2009 14:54:20-PST,2729;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:52:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OPR failure on panda machine.
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
> What jsol didn't mention in his posting is that he verified through me that
> that sequence of commands works as expected on the Toad-1 at PDPplanet before
> sending it to this list.

You have an older, and hacked, version of OPR: 6(7073)-3. Panda has
6(7134), which is newer and unhacked. I suspect that XKL never used any
of the stuff on the TSU tapes.

We know what happens: the command line is RSCANd and anything after the
first word is passed as the command line to the fork when a PUSH is done.

There's strong evidence that it is intentional. The apparent intent is to
set up a restricted operator environment via "OPR some-command" where
"some-command" is what gets done when a PUSH is done. Towards the end,
there was quite a bit of attention in TOPS-20 towards limiting operator
privileges.

Given that:
. it is probably intentional
. we don't know what else added in the TSU tapes may depend upon it.
. it is security code in a security-sensitive program
. even if it is a bug, it is utterly unimportant (why should we care
about funny behavior if someone is silly enough to say "R OPR"
instead of "OPR"?)
I don't think that it's a good use of time to worry about it any further.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

7-Mar-2009 10:00:55-PST,4402;000000000000
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To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: SPACS%/PMAP% file store
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Does anyone know what the interaction is between SPACS% and PMAP% when
outputing to a file?

On input, I know that SPACS% can override the page access of whatever
the file was PMAP%'ed with. In other words, if I have a file mapped
in with write access, I can shut off that write access with an SPACS%.

On the other hand, nothing that either SPACS% or PMAP% does gets
remembered on an output. I don't believe that the FDB (or anything
else) has (perhaps) an index slot for a per-page protection.

Did TENEX? I don't recall that it did and--from what I can remember
from the TENEX JSYS manual--it didn't. But I only used TENEX a very
few times, and that on a Foonly... Was a file store per page access
protection envisioned? If so, this would have been interesting (among
several other interesting TENEX features)

The reason I make the inquiry is (of course) the long awaited Tops-20
Extended Mode FTP server. I'm debugging the dynamic paged buffering
logic (meaning everything else works, including paged retrieves).
Once this is done ...

I know that SSAVE% writes page access information into the .EXE file
and that GET% respects that information when pulling a file into a
fork's virtual address space. At some point, when I implement a
post-lude for the new FTP server (which is partially crafted), my
intention is to leverage this SSAVE%/GET% behavior. Right now, it
does lots of SPACS% on start up to write protect pages. The BBN
server appears to be similar in this regard (lots of SPACS%), which is
where I got the idea from.

What I'm seeing is that, when running paged file structures, the
Tops-20 FTP client ALWAYS sends access control pages (with the result
of an RPACS%), whether or not the remote host is running Tops-20. My
initial thought was that this was kind of strange because the client
knows some things about whether it is talking to a Tops-20 flavored
host. Access control information will always be lost on Tops-20 on
the completion of the output PMAP%. Err, right?

What is odd is that the (much older) BBN FTP server will only send
simple data pages (I.E., no page access bits) when running on Tops-20.
And the Tops-20 FTP client knows how to handle these simple data
pages. The BBN server also knows how to handle simple pages, too.

Why would the Tops-20 FTP client always send access controlled pages
at all? This results in a 25% increase in page header information
which can be significant for highly compressed (I.E., zero trimmed)
pages.

Well, I've been puzzling over it. Respecting write protected files,
maybe? Something like 424242? Maybe not. No matter what page
protection is sent, the file descriptor page is going to override this
after the final PMAP% is done when the pos-transfer code does it's
(winning) CHFDB% stuff.

Debugging maybe? Any stray (or otherwise errorneous) stores by the
remote client into the buffer would be caught. That's useful which,
besides backward compatibility, is another reason that I'll keep this.
But why send this all the time?

7-Mar-2009 10:02:22-PST,4575;000000000000
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Tommy Timesharing is nearing its second uptime record! As can be seen
below, it was booted on Lincoln's birthday of last year. Very
Presidential. Assuming I make it to next Monday morning, I will need
to set a system shutdown in order to avoid the dredded (but nearly
infinately admirable) UP2LNG bug halt.

----------------------------------------------------------------

@TIMET2.EXE
Tops-20 was booted on Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:19:18AM-EST.
It will crash with an UP2LNG BUGHLT on Monday, March 16, 2009 2:41:36AM-EDT.

@i mon
Up 9337:59:45!!!!!!!!!
Idle 98% Waiting 0% Sched ovh 1% Pager traps 0%
Swap reads 62318 Writes 1387371 File reads 3917225 Writes 9296233
8092 Pages of user memory
1012606059 Term wakeups 11233 Term interrupts
NBAL av 0.46 NRUN av 0.02
Runtime of jobs on sched queues 0-6 (sec)
175201 98148 98437 21811 5565 54015 5765

----------------------------------------------------------------

Well, what with my host machine having a big honking UPS and there
being fairly good power here (although I do get a lot of transients),
maybe I'll set lots of uptime records. Heh.

Which leads me to think about some future behavior. Right now, UP2LNG
makes me nervous. It just happens, with no warning. So users could
lose work or worse, the file system could get whacked or worse.
Bad...

It seems to me that an interim hack might be to have the system fudge
an HSYS% once we were within three hours of an UP2LNG. It's
straightforward enough: UPDTCK could poke a value into HSYST1. Then
CHKHSY would send messages appropriately and the EXEC would properly
report it.

Obviously, you wouldn't want this value queued... Which leads me to
another concern that I had had. Outside of a (five minute?) window,
HSYS% values are always queued. Same deal on a reboot. However,
there are certain cases where you do NOT want the HSyS% queued. There
is no way to specify this. A long time ago (September of 2003), I
rewrote HSYS% to handle some problems with the queued code. It would
be easy enough to modify it to handle this.

But I was wondering about this whole uptime business anyway. I mean,
why should a Unix (blech) system stay up longer than a (winning)
Tops-20 system? I could modify the millisecond clock code to keep the
uptime count in a signed double. I'd update it with a DADD or some
such. Lots of changes to compares ... Then I'd change TIME% to give
an error return (or otherwise gronk) when the old clock wrapped (or
something).

Then I could catch programs which needed to be modified. I know that
Galaxy is at least one of these, but I know how to fix that (one of
the advantages of being Columbia's Galaxy Hero for eight years). The
new FTP server also expects a single word TIME% result, but the
internal computation itself handles uptimes (which it needs to
simulate /bin/ls behavior) as if it were passed a double. That will
be easy enough to fix. Same deal with the TIME2T program.

But how to get the double word to the user address space? Modify
TIME% to return a double when running in an extended section. Or
maybe an XTIME% JSYS?

Didn't somebody already do something like this?

7-Mar-2009 12:03:03-PST,1871;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> But I was wondering about this whole uptime business anyway. I mean,
> why should a Unix (blech) system stay up longer than a (winning)
> Tops-20 system? I could modify the millisecond clock code to keep the
> uptime count in a signed double. I'd update it with a DADD or some
> such. Lots of changes to compares ... Then I'd change TIME% to give
> an error return (or otherwise gronk) when the old clock wrapped (or
> something).

XKL did this in their system. Ralph Gorin may be able to answer these
questions.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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We've had systems crash with UP2LNG.

(I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks
would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody
thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in
the future. I changed it to HRLOI AC,377777.)

We made an attempt to allow the clock to wrap to negative numbers
by changing to what amount to unsigned comparisons. But this
doesn't work perfectly. And it only doubles the possible uptime.
There are a lot of places where millisecond resolution isn't needed:
I've changed some code to compare against a clock that advances only
once each second.

Tom's idea to hold TODCLK in a double word has merit.
Some timed dismisses expect to compute on only one word;
various fork tables would need to be extended for double words.
The change is tedious but straight-forward.

We changed the TIME% JSYS. Our version takes an argument in AC 1.
As the original did not require AC 1 to be set up, this is not
perfectly winning. On the other hand, the chances of a program
offering one of the sixbit names by accident is small.

If AC 1 contains 'TODSEC' then return the uptime in seconds
in AC 1, the residue in milliseconds in LH of AC 2
and the divisor to convert to seconds (the number 1)
in the RH of AC 2.

if AC 1 contains 'MSTIME' then return the uptime in milliseconds
as a double word in AC 1 and AC 2.

For other values of AC 1, the old behavior is preserved: the
uptime in milliseconds is returned in AC 1 and the divisor
(^D1000) is returned in AC 2. Unfortunately, published
documentation says the value is milliseconds and the
divisor
is ^D1000, so there would be a lot of broken programs if you
changed units. If the uptime has exceeded 2^35 milliseonds,
the program gets the TIMEX3 error. This is an encouragement
to fix old programs.

Ralph

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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Ralph Gorin wrote:
> (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks
> would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody
> thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in
> the future. I changed it to HRLOI AC,377777.)

Yes, we have that fix. It's at FUNLK+5. You told us about it back in
1998. Thanks again, or we'd be having problems after only 198 days...

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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From: Dan Murphy <[email protected]>
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Ralph Gorin <[email protected]> on Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800 writes:

> (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks
> would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody
> thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in
> the future.

Yup. Might have been me.

> I changed it to HRLOI AC,377777.)

OK, so I reckon that is 2^35 ms = 34E6 seconds = 397.68 days.

That's a pretty good uptime. I'll challenge anyone to present a
Windoze box that has been up that long.

However, I have (had) a Linux box that beats that by a long mile.
It is a machine that sits on the internet 24/7, no external
firewall, serving web sites, email, dns, ntp, and ssh.
(www.parkbits.com if you are interested.) I brought it down back
on November 30, 2008, to upgrade software. It had been running
Fedora Core 3.

At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for
780 days.

-d

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In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Ralph Gorin on Sat, 07
Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800)
Subject: Re: Another Uptime Record
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> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:35:18 -0800
> From: Ralph Gorin <[email protected]>

> Tom's idea to hold TODCLK in a double word has merit.
> Some timed dismisses expect to compute on only one word;
> various fork tables would need to be extended for double words.
> The change is tedious but straight-forward.

2^70 = 1,180,591,620,717,411,303,424 microseconds
= 13,664,254,869,414.4826785185185... days
= 37,410,690,949.8 years

I think that would suffice to prevent UP2LNG BUGHLT's on well-maintained
hardware.

I'd be happy to make the changes necessary.

Rich

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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Dan Murphy wrote:
>> (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks
>> would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody
>> thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in
>> the future.
> Yup. Might have been me.

I seem to recall that field service wanted to take a KL down for PM every
two weeks, and a KS down every month. So it probably wasn't unreasonable
to assume that 198 days was good enough.

> At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for
> 780 days.

I've seen servers with 4-digit day uptimes: 1,095 days from deployment to
retirement due to going off warranty, with no outage in-between.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> Did TENEX? I don't recall that it did and--from what I can remember
> from the TENEX JSYS manual--it didn't.

From reading the early Tenex papers, it seems that this was envisioned but
was never implemented.

Since Dan Murphy has revealed that he reads this list, perhaps he can
comment (with considerably more authority!).

> What I'm seeing is that, when running paged file structures, the
> Tops-20 FTP client ALWAYS sends access control pages (with the result
> of an RPACS%), whether or not the remote host is running Tops-20.

I don't believe that FTP on any operating system other than Tenex and
TOPS-20 ever implemented paged mode.

> Why would the Tops-20 FTP client always send access controlled pages
> at all?

I assume that you're talking about the one written at Stanford that was
hacked from PUPFTP, and not the original Tenex/TOPS-20 FTP program.

I assume that they did it because they saw the capability in the protocol
specification and implemented it without regard for whatever or not it was
useful.

Take a look at what the old BBN FTP client did.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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OK, so while we are giving credit, I will point out that some of
Mark's code was, and is, being exercised constantly on my servers,
namely the uw-imap package that provides imap and pop3 access to
my email clients. Alas, the Fedora packages have denigrated that
in recent releases in favor of the cyrus components. Fortunately,
I can still get and build the uw-imap components.

To return the compliment, imapd is a great improvement over its
successors.

-d

=====================

Mark Crispin <[email protected]> on Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:51:09 -0700 (PDT) writes:

> On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, Dan Murphy wrote:
> >> (I recall some while back having to fix a bug in which forks
> >> would hang when TODCLK was greater than 2^34 milliseconds: somebody
> >> thought MOVSI AC,200000 would be an impossibly large time in
> >> the future.
> > Yup. Might have been me.

> I seem to recall that field service wanted to take a KL down for PM every
> two weeks, and a KS down every month. So it probably wasn't unreasonable
> to assume that 198 days was good enough.

> > At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for
> > 780 days.

> I've seen servers with 4-digit day uptimes: 1,095 days from deployment to
> retirement due to going off warranty, with no outage in-between.

> -- Mark --

> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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Rich,

Ah yes, large numbers. And times. I wasn't sure about the units you
used in your calculations for a 70-bit TODCLK. This is a MILLI-second
(ms) based clock, not a MICRO-second (us) one. Er, right?

Let me know if you ever do do any work on this. I knocked together a
set of macros to compare signed double word values that may be of use
to you. I call them the DCAM group and it is my intention to
seperately publish them in the spirit of HSTNAM and GETCPU sometime
after releasing the server.

I handle all single word unsigned values by casting them to (positive)
double signed values, performing the arithmatic and then folding the
results back into single unsigned values. I do this because using
(large) unsigned numbers has always caused deep confusion for me.
This is particularly the case on the PDP-10 which does not have
unsigned comparison.

Unsigned arithmatic is more straight forward on the Intel 80x86
architecture due to the existance of an unsigned conditional jump.
However, it is still a pain in the neck (or at least my neck, anyway).

I once wrote an uptime program under OS/2 1.x to handle the 32 bit
unsigned millisecond clock from the global information segment. Here
is what it says on my Windows 2000 laptop (the last Windows version
which includes support for OS/2 1.x protected mode applications):

OS/2 up 1 week, 2 days, 18 hours, 45 minutes, 51 seconds
and 274 milliseconds

As an aside, Windows XP will allow 16 bit dual mode applications to
run, but odd things happen. I seem to recall that even this is broken
in Vista.

Anyway, at 0xffffffff milliseconds, the counter wraps after 7 weeks,
17 hours, 2 minutes, 47 seconds and 295 milliseconds. Provided you
are not doing presentation manager development, my OS/2 machines
regularly wrapped this count. Not bad.

To get back to Tops-20, casting to signed longs must be done for ALL
time calculations, including anything that uses the time of day.
Although Tops-20 will easily handle anything after 19-JAN-2038
03:14:07-GMT, there is at least some system code that is going to
break on 27-SEP-2217 20:00:00-EST (do you see why)?

There are some changes that I made to Galaxy that address the TOD
problem. There are some other places that I still need to review. If
you'll have a look at I$AGE and I$AFTER in QSRADM.MAC, you'll see what
I'm talking about.

Processing numbers that approach the dynamic range of storage
variables is NOT obvious for mere mortals! Many programs get it
wrong. For example, have a look at this output from Tennessee Tuxedo
(TTux), Tommy Timesharing's (TOMMYT) host Linux (Debian) box:

slogin@TTux:~$ uptime
13:56:07 up 116 days, 2:57, 2 users, load average: 0.10, 0.09, 0.02
slogin@TTux:~$

Since TOMMYT itself has been up over 9,387 hours, this number is
clearly wrong. One assumes this because a 32 bit counter got wrapped.

I'd point this out to some Linux hero (Larry Greenfield? Michael
K. Johnson?), but the last time I tried to do something like that
(concerning IP policy routing maps), I got nearly two solid weeks of
NIH and nothing else. Actually I couldn't even get them to understand
what I was talking about. Immensely frustrating. Same deal with an
early version of psFTP. It may be remembered that I had to 'fix' the
Tops-20 FTP client to not send either the MODE or STRU. God that was
annoying. All so I could download some RFCs...

Another number example would be the previous error with the KLH10
implementation of CVTDBO (which Mark fixed). It may be remembered
that [EXP .INFIN,.INFIN] was converted to 20,070,057,552,195,992,158,
207 and not 1,180,591,620,717,411,303,423.

That being said, do you see why your working value of 1,180,591,620,
717,411,303,424 is incorrect (I.E., off by one)? It's tedious work.
And Annoying. Tools have to be used carefully or they do the wrong
thing (or at least display incorrect results). Excel 2000 does the
wrong thing, too: (POWER(2,70)-1) displaying as the same value as
POWER(2,70).

Assuming 1,000 milliseconds per second, 60 seconds per minute, 60
minutes per hour, 24 hours per day, 7 days a week and 52 weeks per
year, when I ran the math, I got a maximum uptime 37,539,161,729
years, 8 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 35 seconds and 3 milli-seconds.
That Seems Adequate...

It's close enough to what Excel gets: 37,539,161,729 years, 8 weeks, 2
days, 11 hours and 36 seconds, zero milliseconds. So how did you get
37,410,690,949.8?

I think it's the hallmark of a Tops-20 programmer (as opposed to the
wann-be's) that we're at least aware of this kind of stuff.

--T

9-Mar-2009 16:57:42-PDT,3434;000000000000
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From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
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> That's a pretty good uptime. I'll challenge anyone to present a
> Windoze box that has been up that long.

Well, there are uptimes and then there are uptimes for Windows. I
think a lot depends on what the mission of the box is.

I have a Windows 2000 Server that has been in continuous service for
over a year. This is an IBM x232 with a triple redundant UPS, hot
swap power supplies, error correcting memory and a RAID 5 with two hot
spares. The box does nothing but run Backup Exec to backup about 50
Windows workstations. And serve files. It never has any software
installed on it. Nobody logs into it (under pain of death), either.

Typically, I have to take a Windows box out of service to apply (the
many required) security patch updates. And every software package
install seems to crave a reboot these days. Notwithstanding the
previous, I can't get my Windows XP Professional machine to stay up
for more than a month, even if I torpedo the Windows Explorer (which
sometimes gets me an extra week or so). One supposes this is
un-Professional..

Windows has gotten better about auto-whacking itself while doing
software development.

Provided you were not doing Presentation Manager development, OS/2 was
remarkably robust (see previous), particularly if you were running a
monochrome monitor (in addition to the EGA). I regularly wrapped the
(32 bit millisecond) uptime counter. But I don't actually know what
my longest uptime was.

I assume my Debian stays up so long because I don't use it to do
anything but run the KLH10 microengine. It does run latd and sshd.

> At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for 780
> days.

How could you tell? I mean what program did you use? Uptime gives
the wrong results.

What impresses me about Tops-20 is that I have done a bucketload of
development on the FTP server and haven't had any downtime. Lots
of wrong arguments to monitor calls, ^C'ing and it runs as a top-
level fork. No downtime.

9-Mar-2009 17:30:19-PDT,2446;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Thomas DeBellis on
Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:55:28 -0400)
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Hey, Tom,

http://sun-microsystems.org/BigCalculator/BigCalculator.shtml

Yes, an off-by-1 error. I entered 2^70 and neglected to subtract 1.

As for the rest:

- Divide by 1000_10 (1750_8) to get seconds

- Divide by 86400_10 to get days

- Divide by 365.25_10 to get years

I was going for a back-of-the-envelope approximation, to show the desirability
of the doubleword TODCLK, not looking to implement it at the moment I was
writing my posting. I think we're all agreed that the heat death of the
universe is a reasonable epoch to shoot for...

Your answer is incorrect to the extent that a year is not 52 7-day weeks
(i. e., 364 days), but I would expect your answer to larger, not smaller, on
that account. It is entirely possible that the calculator I used is not as
good as it might be. I didn't feel like doing the math by hand, 'coz 2^70 is a
lot of dividend.

Rich

9-Mar-2009 19:07:25-PDT,2883;000000000000
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Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]> on Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:42:39 -0400 writes:

> > At the point I shut it down, it had been up continuously for 780
> > days.

> How could you tell? I mean what program did you use? Uptime gives
> the wrong results.

That may be, but I can easily confirm when it was last booted. It
was definitely over 2 years prior, but I didn't think to see if the
uptime days were exactly right.

This system is not quite as HA as the one you describe. No
redundant power supplies for example. It does have mirrored RAID
disks -- not that any of the disks failed during this time, as
that would have required a reboot to replace.

It is on a decent but not spectular UPS. In fact, the last
outage, 2+ years back, was the result of a municipal power outage
in the city where the machine is co-located with a regional ISP --
an outage that lasted over 8 hours and outlived the UPS.

I'm not especially concerned with how well software does at
running on hardware where the power is off. On hardware that
stays up and does not fail however, I like software that does not
choke on its own longevity.

Cheers,

-d

9-Mar-2009 20:06:14-PDT,2150;000000000000
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--------
[Dan Murphy <[email protected]> writes:]

> I'm not especially concerned with how well software does at
> running on hardware where the power is off. On hardware that
> stays up and does not fail however, I like software that does not
> choke on its own longevity.

After IOS got over the inevitable 32-bit millisecond counting kind of
issues (just shy of 50 days, I think), we would regularly encounter
customer routers which had sat in closets for year after year after year
with no service interruption. Mind you, this was *software* routing,
not just a CPU idling while silicon handled packets.

Those times, of course, are past. I had to eject Cisco the last time I
did a major network design because IOS had become just too slow and
flaky. Happily there are now very cheap, and very reliable layer 3
switches which boot fast, switch at wire rate, and do it in such a way
that it doesn't seem like a big deal.

Andy Valencia

9-Mar-2009 20:16:31-PDT,1971;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Dan Murphy wrote:
> It is on a decent but not spectular UPS. In fact, the last
> outage, 2+ years back, was the result of a municipal power outage
> in the city where the machine is co-located with a regional ISP --
> an outage that lasted over 8 hours and outlived the UPS.

I envy you and your talk about outages that outlive the UPS as if that is
a remarkable event that happens only every few years.

In these parts, pretty much all outages outlive the UPS, there are
typically a half dozen outages a year (especially in winter), and anything
less than 8 hours is a short outage.

The longest outage that I experienced was 5 days.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

11-Mar-2009 08:48:24-PDT,3917;000000000000
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After IOS got over the inevitable 32-bit millisecond counting kind of
issues (just shy of 50 days, I think), we would regularly encounter
customer routers which had sat in closets for year after year after year
with no service interruption. Mind you, this was *software* routing,
not just a CPU idling while silicon handled packets.

We just recently had a report from a customer of a 10-y uptime:

==============================
SK-HE001-RT002#sh vers
Cisco Internetwork Operating System Software
IOS (tm) 4500 Software (C4500-J-M), Version 11.2(14), RELEASE SOFTWARE
(fc1)
Copyright (c) 1986-1998 by cisco Systems, Inc.
Compiled Mon 18-May-98 13:54 by tlane
Image text-base: 0x600088A0, data-base: 0x607BE000

ROM: System Bootstrap, Version 5.3(16) [richardd 16], RELEASE SOFTWARE
(fc1)
BOOTFLASH: 4500 Software (C4500-BOOT-M), Version 11.2(14)P, RELEASE
SOFTWARE (fc1)

SK-HE001-RT002 uptime is 10 years, 4 days, 6 minutes
System restarted by power-on at 11:43:38 CET Mon Oct 19 1998
System image file is "flash:c4500-j-mz.112-14", booted via flash
Host configuration file is "upg-dcn/133.1.170.1.cfg", booted via tftp
==============================

Those times, of course, are past. I had to eject Cisco the
last time I did a major network design because IOS had become
just too slow and flaky.

Don't forget BIG. Sigh :-(

BillW

12-Mar-2009 09:43:14-PDT,6029;000000000000
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To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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> > What I'm seeing is that, when running paged file structures, the
> > Tops-20 FTP client ALWAYS sends access control pages (with the
> > result of an RPACS%), whether or not the remote host is running
> > Tops-20.

> I don't believe that FTP on any operating system other than Tenex
> and TOPS-20 ever implemented paged mode.

Sometime during the 1980's, when I was still reading the FTP (lovers?)
mailing list, I seem to remember a company called FTP Software. I
vaguely recall somebody working on an FTP client there posting a
message as to whether they should implement paged file structures or
not. Unfortunately, I don't remember the response!

This is the only instance that I am aware of where paged file
structures were ever mentioned outside of a TENEX/Tops-20 system.

But they actually DO make sense for any operating system that supports
discontiguous files (I.E., files with 'holes' in them). I thought
that Windows NTFS supports this.

Another benefit is the file descriptor page which allows the server to
set some file meta-data, such as user strings and times. A case could
be made for this being a cuteness. More modern FTP clients, such as
the Mac OSX character mode one, set some file meta-data via the use of
MDTM verb.

I may follow this lead at some point to allow some Tops-20 meta-data
to be set whether or not paged file structures are being used.
Judging from the amount of data being sent over the wire, I plan to
modify the FTP client to avoid running with paged file structures
unless certain conditions are met.

> > Why would the Tops-20 FTP client always send access controlled
> > pages at all?

> I assume that you're talking about the one written at Stanford that
> was hacked from PUPFTP, and not the original Tenex/TOPS-20 FTP
> program.

Yes.

> I assume that they did it because they saw the capability in the
> protocol specification and implemented it without regard for
> whatever or not it was useful.

It's hard to say. As I said before, paged file structures are
essential if you want to send files with holes in them. This is
useful for sending Quasar's queue file, some kinds of dump files and
perhaps database files. Now that I think about it, there were a few
instances where I actually did transfer a PRIMARY-MASTER-QUEUE-FILE.
QUASAR file from some systems in order to help debug Quasar crashes.
I seem to recall I did this on SCORE, once.

But this doesn't explain why you'd always want to send access
controlled pages... Doing so makes the send loop somewhat more
straightforward. I hasten to add that I am reluctant to criticise the
Stanford FTP client. It is hands down one of the more winning pieces
of code I've come across. Very clear, structured and easy to
maintain.

> Take a look at what the old BBN FTP client did.

I had already done this. That's what had really gotten my puzzler
going. The old BBN FTP code does not send access controlled pages
when it detects that it is not running on TENEX. If it receives an
access controlled page while running under Tops-20, it omits issuing
the SPACS%.

I think this is the proper behavior. The only reason I can see to
send and respect access controlled pages under Tops-20 is that it
could help buffer debugging. I have a great deal of logic to try to
catch stray stores--write protected code, guard pages and the like.
This could be an additional tool.

Note that I say BBN FTP code and not the BBN FTP client or server.
The TENEX FTP subsystem is architected to have a lot of common code
and produces either a client or a server depending on some assembly
conditionals. I thought that was a pretty fine idea.

If I were ever going to write a Tops-20 FTP client (which I currently
see absolutely no reason for doing), I'd probably go with something
like this approach.

I do, however, have some architectural placeholders for having any
program being able to initiate an FTP transfer. The server can be
mapped into an inferior fork and the data fork can be directly invoked
(I.E., without an RSCAN%) to transfer a file either off of a disk or
out of mapped memory (presumably from a superior). Something like the
MM/Emacs interface.

Likewise, the code should be easily adaptable to IP6. I've already
implemented the appropriate keywords to do this (EPRT, EPSV) which the
MAC OS X character mode FTP client prefers to use. DECnet, Chaosnet
and PUP would be pretty easy, too.

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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Thu, 12 Mar 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> This is the only instance that I am aware of where paged file
> structures were ever mentioned outside of a TENEX/Tops-20 system.
>
> But they actually DO make sense for any operating system that supports
> discontiguous files (I.E., files with 'holes' in them). I thought
> that Windows NTFS supports this.

Most versions of UNIX also allow holey files, but it is even more rarely
used on UNIX than TOPS-20. The virtual disk made by klh10 is holey,
although once it gets copied about the holes tend to be filled with
zeroes.

> The old BBN FTP code does not send access controlled pages
> when it detects that it is not running on TENEX. If it receives an
> access controlled page while running under Tops-20, it omits issuing
> the SPACS%.

Hmm, then maybe Tenex did do something that wasn't in TOPS-20. I suspect
that this was a difference between the BBN pager and the KL pager. Dan
ought to be able to speak much more intelligently and authoritatively
about this than me.........

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:31:09 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:31:09 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[email protected]>
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Cc: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>,
Mark Crispin <[email protected]>,
Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SPACS%/PMAP% file store
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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> But they actually DO make sense for any operating system that supports
> discontiguous files (I.E., files with 'holes' in them). I thought
> that Windows NTFS supports this.
>
Unix does too, sort of.

/* Make a big file that doesn't actually take up any disk space */
/* To build on Solaris: "make bigfile CFLAGS=-xarch=generic64" */

#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/types.h>
main() {
FILE * fp;
if (!(fp = fopen("BIGFILE","w"))) {
printf("fopen failed\n");
exit(1);
}
if (fseeko(fp,(off_t)3000000000LL,SEEK_SET) < 0) {
perror("fseek");
exit(1);
}
if (fputc('x',fp) == EOF) {
perror("fputc");
exit(1);
}
fclose(fp);
exit(0);
}

I use this for creating a 3GB file for testing 64-bit file access and
transfer code without making the disk quota alarms go off. It's a 1-byte
file whose first byte is faaaaar away...

- Frank

13-Mar-2009 19:58:47-PDT,1624;000000000000
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:55:09 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: question about KLH10...
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
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I am trying to install my very own tops-20 klh20 and what is happens is
kind of strange.

I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from
one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host.

I don't have any way to set up a static IP address (at lease without
changing carriers). I currently use AT&T as my IP carrier.

I heard a rumor saying that telnet/ftp/smtp from the tops-20 machine
to the gateway unix host are not possible. Is that really true?
It is going to be difficult to use my emulator without being
able to ftp/telnet/smtp to the unix box. What I want to do
is ftp stuff either to or from the gateway host to or from the
tops-20 host.

thanx,
--jsol
-------

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: question about KLH10...
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from
> one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host.

That happens if the TOPS-20 system and the UNIX host are sharing the same
Ethernet interface. Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so
TOPS-20 has a dedicated card, and it will work fine.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

14-Mar-2009 13:46:44-PDT,1368;000000000000
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Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:28:29 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: linux klh-20
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
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I think I have most of it working. Mark and I were working on
some stuff but we have reached an impasse as to what he knows
about linux hosting klh20.

Right now I can't connect to my linux host from the tops-20
side because linux doesn't support telnet/ftp. I can not connect
from the unix to the 20 as it says "no route to host".

please let me know what you can tell me.

I can send you what you need from my files to see what is done
and what needs to be done.

--jsol
-------

14-Mar-2009 18:44:18-PDT,1033;000000000000
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Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:24:28 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: one more thing...
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:42:34 -0700 (PDT)
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I share VoIP on the 192.186.1.x host numbers (host 33 for the phone,
and host 1 for the unix box).

that might be part of the problem...

-------

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Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:55:18 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: last one (I hope)
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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I think that I need to make it possible for my unix host tohave two IP addresses,

one is the AT&T non-static number, and 192.168.1.1 for the tops-20 sites
to use.

let me know if you know how is is done...

is there a unix mailing list like TOPS-20?

-------

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Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> I think I have most of it working. Mark and I were working on
> some stuff but we have reached an impasse as to what he knows
> about linux hosting klh20.
>
> Right now I can't connect to my linux host from the tops-20
> side because linux doesn't support telnet/ftp. I can not connect
> from the unix to the 20 as it says "no route to host".
>
> please let me know what you can tell me.
>
> I can send you what you need from my files to see what is done
> and what needs to be done.
>
> --jsol
> -------
>
>
>
Jonathan,
what variant of linux are you running? are you running inetd?
are your running iptables with with telnet and ftp disabled?
bob

--
===============================================
Command Line Interface - the only way to feel like you control the computer.

14-Mar-2009 18:49:11-PDT,6618;000000000000
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Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
>> I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files, and I can ftp from
>> one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host.
>
> That happens if the TOPS-20 system and the UNIX host are sharing the
> same Ethernet interface. Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host
> so TOPS-20 has a dedicated card, and it will work fine.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>
>
Jonathan, what are you running - what hardware and what Linux version?
Just to make sure I look in the right areas. I have both i386 and
x86-64 boxes.
I was not pleased with Fedora on i386, many reasons.
thanks by the way, I had planned on putting KLH on two systems soon, and
you nudged me to
start on it sooner than later!!

I just unpacked the panda distro I got from mark a while back, I
unpacked it on a new to me machine,
dual cpu amd box running 64bit linux, unpacks fine, boots into KLH,
starts TOPS20, but I was not
able to connect - of course this is after editting the ip address in the
ini file.
I will go back and look at the Linux set up, it is a server set up with
virtual support. last time I unpacked
the panda I think it was on an alpha running netbsd and there were no
issues, just ran, but I will turn that
machine on tomorrow and reverify. When I first ran KLH10, I had to do
some compile magic to make it
work on alpha (thanks Ken, I remember the help!!) and that install is
still on that machine. That was a DGC
I think I installed panda on both a DS10 and a DGC box, but just ran the
RP and TOPS 20 builds on my home built
KLH and it worked fine, I have to go check that. Raining here so I have
time to play with the computers inside.
Will advise.
bob

--
===============================================
Command Line Interface - the only way to feel like you control the computer.

--------------040702010108040107000707
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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Mark Crispin wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:[email protected]"
type="cite">On Fri, 13 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
 
<blockquote type="cite">I have two copies of the emulator/rp07 files,
and I can ftp from
 
one to another, but I cannot ftp (or telnet) to the unix gateway host.
 
</blockquote>
 
That happens if the TOPS-20 system and the UNIX host are sharing the
same Ethernet interface.  Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host
so TOPS-20 has a dedicated card, and it will work fine.
 
 
-- Mark --
 
 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://panda.com/tops-20">http://panda.com/tops-20</a>
 
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
 
 
 
</blockquote>
Jonathan, what are you running - what hardware and what
Linux version? 
Just to make sure I look in the right areas.  I have both i386 and
x86-64 boxes. 
I was not pleased with Fedora on i386, many reasons. 
thanks by the way, I had planned on putting KLH on two systems soon,
and you nudged me to 
start on it sooner than later!! 
 
I just unpacked the panda distro I got from mark a while back, I
unpacked it on a new to me machine, 
dual cpu amd box running 64bit linux, unpacks fine, boots into KLH,
starts TOPS20, but I was not 
able to connect - of course this is after editting the ip address in
the ini file. 
I will go back and look at the Linux set up, it is a server set up with
virtual support. last time I unpacked 
the panda I think it was on an alpha running netbsd and there were no
issues, just ran, but I will turn that 
machine on tomorrow and reverify.  When I first ran KLH10, I had to do
some compile magic to make it 
work on alpha (thanks Ken, I remember the help!!) and that install is
still on that machine.  That was a DGC 
I think I installed panda on both a DS10 and a DGC box, but just ran
the RP and TOPS 20 builds on my home built 
KLH and it worked fine, I have to go check that.  Raining here so I
have time to play with the computers inside.  
Will advise. 
bob 
 
 
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
===============================================
Command Line Interface - the only way to feel like you control the computer.</pre>
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> Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20
> has a dedicated card, and it will work fine.

It is not necessary to add another ethernet card.

Obtain Mike McMahon's klh-2.0i from

http://home.comcast.net/~mmcm/klh10/tuntap.patch

You need to enable this feature by setting a #define in
klh10-2.0i/src/Mk-lnx86.mk:

CENVFLAGS = -DCENV_CPU_I386=1 -DCENV_SYS_LINUX=1 -DKLH10_NET_TUN=1 \

Make sure your kernel supports TUN/TAP devices

Device Drivers --->
[*] Network device support --->
<*> Universal TUN/TAP device driver support

or, in a prebuilt kernel,

# modprobe tun

Enable masquerading if you don't already --
(Here eth0 is your default gateway)

# echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
# iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE

Choose an otherwise unused subnet, 192.168.36.*

Linux will be at 192.168.36.1
Tops-20 will be at 192.168.36.20

Use this line in klt20.ini

devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ipaddr=192.168.36.20 tunaddr=192.168.36.1

Hit <system>internet.address

IPNI#0,192.168.36.20,PACKET-SIZE:1500,LOGICAL-HOST-MASK:255.0.0.0,DEFAULT,PREFERRED

Hit <system>internet.gateways

PRIME 192.168.36.1

Hit <system>hosts.txt and <domain>resolv.config

You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before.

Go.

It should say something like

[dpni20: ifc "tap0" => ether 32:71:1e:5b:9f:75]
[dpni20: tun 192.168.36.1]
[dpni20: VHOST 192.168.36.20]
[KNILDR: Loading microcode version 1(172) into Ethernet channel 0]

tap0 looks like

$ ip addr show tap0
18: tap0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc
pfifo_fast qlen 500
link/ether ca:73:91:b8:40:0d brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
inet 192.168.36.1 peer 192.168.36.20/24 brd 192.168.36.255
scope global tap0

$ ip route show
205.29.245.0/25 dev eth0 proto kernel scope link src 205.29.245.97
192.168.36.0/24 dev tap0 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.36.1
192.168.198.0/24 dev eth1 proto kernel scope link src 192.168.198.1
127.0.0.0/8 dev lo scope link
default via 205.29.245.2 dev eth0

Beware of iptables filter rules that reject traffic from the 20.
Use tcpdump to debug.

ping looks like

$ ping 192.168.36.20
PING 192.168.36.20 (192.168.36.20) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 192.168.36.20: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.311 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.36.20: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=0.355 ms

arp looks like

$ arp
Address HWtype HWaddress Flags Mask Iface
205.29.245.2 ether 00:19:e7:15:cf:c5 C eth0
192.168.36.20 ether 00:00:00:00:00:00 C tap0
192.168.36.20 * <from_interface> MP *

13:21:07.636853 arp who-has 192.168.36.20 tell 192.168.36.1
13:21:07.637071 arp reply 192.168.36.20 is-at 00:00:00:00:00:00

That 00:00:00:00:00:00 is odd but it doesn't appear to cause trouble.

I am using Linux. FreeBSD already has this (pre klh10i) and maybe
Solaris too.

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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:31:51 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: question about KLH10...
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> > Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20 has a
> > dedicated card, and it will work fine.

> It is not necessary to add another ethernet card.

Perhaps not in all cases. I wasn't sure if the KLH10 changes were
only to make shared IP work. If so, then I can think of some reasons
why you might want a dedicated Ethernet interface.

I do not have the most up to date information on this, but I was never
able to get LAT to work until I used a seperate Ethernet card for
KLH10. That may have changed. Has it?

Linux itself will run LAT. LAT is useful if you trash your IP free
space on the 20, because you can still get in to do stuff. I have
managed to do this while developing FTP. LAT is useful for regression
testing. You can also connect physical terminals into LAT boxes
(there are new boxes you can get, not the old ones).

All my local access (in the house) is via LAT and my ACJ has been
modified to be aware of this.

I can not recall exactly about DECnet, but I thought that earlier
versions wanted to program the MAC address on the NI. That could make
things difficult. I have no other information on Tops-20 based
DECnet, but I recall that MRC was looking at it at one point.

The galant individual who chooses to implement IP6 on the 20 will
undoubtedly want a seperate Ethernet card. Ditto IPX and NetBUEI
(Heh)

Financially, I have seen name brand PCI based Ethernet cards (the
Linksys PLNE100TX, for example) selling for as low as $15. Others for
less than $12. If you don't have a free PCI slot (say you're on a
laptop), I have seen USB 2.0 based Ethernet adaptors going for less
than $20. PCMCIA Ethernet adaptors for under $25.

So why WOULDN'T you want to use an extra adaptor?

Other than having a full switch (or hub), I don't see any reason for
not throwing in an adaptor for KLH10. Running on a Palm or something
like that? Just wondering ...

The extra things a seperate adaptor gets you may come in handy (or be
interesting or fun to play with). Certainly it will not break any but
the most strapped piggy bank.

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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:35:04 -0600
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Subject: Re: question about KLH10...
From: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>, Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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> I wasn't sure if the KLH10 changes were
> only to make shared IP work. If so, then I can think of some reasons
> why you might want a dedicated Ethernet interface.

No, it provides a dedicated interface.
See /usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt.

> Financially, I have seen name brand PCI based Ethernet cards (the
> Linksys PLNE100TX, for example) selling for as low as $15. Others for
> less than $12. If you don't have a free PCI slot (say you're on a
> laptop), I have seen USB 2.0 based Ethernet adaptors going for less
> than $20. PCMCIA Ethernet adaptors for under $25.
>
> I do not have the most up to date information on this, but I was never
> able to get LAT to work until I used a seperate Ethernet card for
> KLH10. That may have changed. Has it?

It proably hasn't changed but it's not the dedic=false case.
LAT would probably work. Certainly tops-20 emits some kind
of LAT announcement. I don't know how to connect to it.

> So why WOULDN'T you want to use an extra adaptor?

Well, it's software, it won't wear out.
You don't have to leave your chair and drive to Fry's (1000 miles away).
And it is preposterous for a computer to be unable to send itself
datagrams.

Me, I have tried the extra ethernet card. Two cables from computer
to hub, different IP addresses, so it could send from one to the
other. Plugged in the cable, smelled smoke, unplugged the cable.
Motherboard eth0 is toast. And when I plugged anything at all
into that port, smell of blue smoke.

Years later I have a nice new motherboard with working eth's
and no inclination at all to plug in two cables to a single hub.

> Other than having a full switch (or hub), I don't see any reason for
> not throwing in an adaptor for KLH10. Running on a Palm or something
> like that? Just wondering ...

I too am wondering ...

With klh10 i, tops-20 FTP from ftp.kernel.org turns in 110 kilobaud.
With Linux, same machine, linux ftp turns in 1219 kilobaud -- 10x better.

With klh10 i, tops-20 FTP from local Linux turns in 1605 kilobaud.
With Linux, same machine, ftp from itself turns in 5520 kilobaud.
This seems to be more or less cpu bound so this is reasonable.

But what's up with TCP performance to remote hosts?

And while I'm wondering ...

Where is PCL? I can't find any documentation, and the Panda EXEC
does not seem to have it.

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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
cc: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>,
Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: question about KLH10...
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On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Chris Smith wrote:
> Where is PCL? I can't find any documentation, and the Panda EXEC
> does not seem to have it.

Huh? The Panda EXEC most certainly has PCL. Did you try the DECLARE
command?

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 10:20:32 -0400
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> Where is PCL? I can't find any documentation, the Panda EXEC
> does not seem to have it.

PCL is definitely there and working. I use it all the time.

However, older PANDA distributions (circa 2002) do not appear to have
PCL documentation.

The files that I have are called PCL.TXT and PCLREF.DOC. I put them
in PS:<DOCUMENTATION>, but I do not know where they would normally go.
I think we may have had them in PS:<PCL> at Columbia.

I'm not implying that there ever was anything 'abnormal' about PCL. I
mean I don't know if PCL ever made it into the standard DEC
distribution for 7.0. I don't recall that it was in 6.0; at least at
Columbia, I'm pretty sure that we had to put it in.

If Mark has these files in the latest PANDA distribution, then check
there. If not, I will be happy to supply these you off-list and
follow up with Mark as to whether these should be considered for
inclusion in future releases.

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:48:51 -0600
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From: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
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> Huh? The Panda EXEC most certainly has PCL. Did you try the DECLARE com=
mand?

Yes, it's there. Thanks.

> I'm not implying that there ever was anything 'abnormal' about PCL. =A0I
> mean I don't know if PCL ever made it into the standard DEC
> distribution for 7.0. =A0I don't recall that it was in 6.0; at least at
> Columbia, I'm pretty sure that we had to put it in.

There's a <tools.exec-mods> that had PCL and MIC sources
and binaries (PCL-EXEC.EXE) and perhaps documentation?

Panda has COMMAND-EDITOR-NOTES.TXT there which is
great. I had been just retyping mistakes completely.

> I will be happy to supply these you off-list

Thanks!

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On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Chris Smith wrote:

> > Add another Ethernet card to your UNIX host so TOPS-20
> > has a dedicated card, and it will work fine.
>
> It is not necessary to add another ethernet card.

It *may* not be necessary, depending on what you're trying to do. :-)

[...]
> Enable masquerading if you don't already --
> (Here eth0 is your default gateway)
>
> # echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
> # iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE

That depends on whether you want to share the IP or not. For maximum
flexiblity, *not* using NAT allows the virtual 10 to have its own IP
address. But it would still need to be on its own subnet, and other
machines on the LAN would need to understand the routing (though just
having the default gateway understand it is usually sufficient, and will
typically use ICMP Redirect to supply routing information to other hosts).

[...]
> You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before.

Why? Is anything outside dpni20 making network calls?

[...]
> I am using Linux. FreeBSD already has this (pre klh10i) and maybe
> Solaris too.

Though the "iptables" references would need to be different on non-Linux
platforms.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually done this myself with KLH10, but I wrote
the code and documentation to do almost exactly the same thing for Macs
emulated on Amigas.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Chris Smith wrote:

> > I wasn't sure if the KLH10 changes were
> > only to make shared IP work. If so, then I can think of some reasons
> > why you might want a dedicated Ethernet interface.
>
> No, it provides a dedicated interface.
> See /usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt.

It provides a dedicated *virtual* interface, and relies on the host to
route traffic to and from the physical interface.

[...]
> > I do not have the most up to date information on this, but I was never
> > able to get LAT to work until I used a seperate Ethernet card for
> > KLH10. That may have changed. Has it?
>
> It proably hasn't changed but it's not the dedic=false case.
> LAT would probably work. Certainly tops-20 emits some kind
> of LAT announcement. I don't know how to connect to it.

For a LAT client running on the host, I don't see why it wouldn't
work. But no other machine will be able to make LAT connection, because
LAT isn't an IP-based protocol, and hence isn't routable via the IP
routing code (actually, LAT was never designed to be routable at all).

Ditto for DECnet.

Getting non-IP protocols through from the outside would require either
bridging, or additional protocol-specific routing.

[...]
> Me, I have tried the extra ethernet card. Two cables from computer
> to hub, different IP addresses, so it could send from one to the
> other. Plugged in the cable, smelled smoke, unplugged the cable.
> Motherboard eth0 is toast. And when I plugged anything at all
> into that port, smell of blue smoke.

There is absolutely no way in hell that your broken hardware was
specifically the consequence of plugging two Ethernet cables from the same
machine into the same hub. In fact, electrically, that's an easier case
than cables from *different* computers, since they won't have different
ground references (which is why Ethernet is transformer-coupled).
Ethernet ports are required to withstand common-mode components of at
least 500V to meet the spec.

You weren't by any chance trying to connect two things supplying Power
over Ethernet with different opinions of the voltage, were you?

[...]

Fred Wright

22-Mar-2009 12:04:47-PDT,2667;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Fred Wright <[email protected]>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: question about KLH10...
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On Sun, 22 Mar 2009, Fred Wright wrote:
>> You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before.
> Why? Is anything outside dpni20 making network calls?

AFAIK, the only reason to run kn10-kl as root (setuid root) is so that it
can lock itself into memory for better performance. dpni20 is the thing
that really needs root.

> It provides a dedicated *virtual* interface, and relies on the host to
> route traffic to and from the physical interface.

Hence my preference to use a dedicated physical interface. Having used
both modes, I will never use a virtual interface if I have a choice.

> For a LAT client running on the host, I don't see why it wouldn't
> work. But no other machine will be able to make LAT connection, because
> LAT isn't an IP-based protocol, and hence isn't routable via the IP
> routing code (actually, LAT was never designed to be routable at all).
> Ditto for DECnet.

That explains why I never got DECnet working with a virtual interface.

> There is absolutely no way in hell that your broken hardware was
> specifically the consequence of plugging two Ethernet cables from the same
> machine into the same hub.

I too had to wonder about that. It made no sense to me, especially as
that is how I have Meimei+Lingling configured.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

22-Mar-2009 16:55:08-PDT,5576;000000000000
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>> Enable masquerading if you don't already --
>> (Here eth0 is your default gateway)
>>
>> # echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
>> # iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE
>
> That depends on whether you want to share the IP or not. For maximum
> flexiblity, *not* using NAT allows the virtual 10 to have its own IP
> address. But it would still need to be on its own subnet, and other
> machines on the LAN would need to understand the routing (though just
> having the default gateway understand it is usually sufficient, and will
> typically use ICMP Redirect to supply routing information to other hosts).

The NAT is to get out of the house. I only have one IP address.
If I had several, the situation with tap0 would be identical to eth0.
It has the address you give it.

>> You need to run kn10-kl as root, not just setuid dpni20 as before.
>
> Why? Is anything outside dpni20 making network calls?

dpni20 uses privileged system() calls to set up the tunnel. They
don't get run as root.

setreuid() fixes that and there are no more error messages, but
KNILDR loading the microcode fails. Don't know why.

>> No, it provides a dedicated interface.
>> See /usr/src/linux/Documentation/networking/tuntap.txt.
>
> It provides a dedicated *virtual* interface, and relies on the host to
> route traffic to and from the physical interface.

I'm not sure if I understand.

eth0 gets and sends ethernet frames to the upper levels.

tap0 gets and sends ethernet frames to the upper levels. There
is no difference.

At the very lowest level, where eth0 has a low-level driver
that does I/O instructions, tap0 has a low-level driver that
operates read() and write() in dpni20.

dpni20 sees ethernet frames indistinguishable from hardware ones.

> Getting non-IP protocols through from the outside would require either
> bridging, or additional protocol-specific routing.

KVM does the following, which should work for dpni20, but it does not:
Make a bridge br0 address 10.0.0.1. Make a tunnel tap0
IP address 0.0.0.0 promiscuous. Add tap0 to br0. Tell klh10h
dedic=true ifc=tap0. Linux will route to and from br0.

Doesn't work.

And it's off topic to boot, sorry, it wouldn't help route Decnet
either.

> There is absolutely no way in hell that your broken hardware was
> specifically the consequence of plugging two Ethernet cables from the same
> machine into the same hub. In fact, electrically, that's an easier case
> than cables from *different* computers, since they won't have different
> ground references (which is why Ethernet is transformer-coupled).
> Ethernet ports are required to withstand common-mode components of at
> least 500V to meet the spec.
>
> You weren't by any chance trying to connect two things supplying Power
> over Ethernet with different opinions of the voltage, were you?

One power-over-ethernet device, to my wireless antenna.

I actually had the problem twice, the other was a fried ethernet card.
I don't remember the details. But it was sufficiently convincing at the time.

22-Mar-2009 16:56:34-PDT,3067;000000000000
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>> For a LAT client running on the host, I don't see why it wouldn't
>> work. =A0But no other machine will be able to make LAT connection, becau=
se
>> LAT isn't an IP-based protocol, and hence isn't routable via the IP
>> routing code (actually, LAT was never designed to be routable at all).
>> Ditto for DECnet.
>
> That explains why I never got DECnet working with a virtual interface.

What do you mean by virtual interface?

If traffic on its subnet has Decnet frames, or Chaosnet frames, dpni20
will see them. I assume tops-20 will then toss them.

22-Mar-2009 16:58:00-PDT,3337;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:06:10 -0400
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> Me, I have tried the extra ethernet card. Two cables from computer
> to hub, different IP addresses, so it could send from one to the
> other. Plugged in the cable, smelled smoke, unplugged the cable.
> Motherboard eth0 is toast. And when I plugged anything at all into
> that port, smell of blue smoke.

> Years later I have a nice new motherboard with working eth's and no
> inclination at all to plug in two cables to a single hub.

The true hacker does not let mere electricity stand in the way of
developing winning software.

I am the author of FAIS, the specialized sound storage system for the
ProDisk-464, a professional audio editing system of a few years back.
We had just completed our first production run of boards from
manufacturing and I got stuck using the wirewrap development system to
chase down a bug in the master mode interrupt dismissal logic.

It had been a long night and I was getting cranky. The audio input
board was a little noisy, so I got annoyed and reached in with a
screwdriver to give a pot a little tweak. And dropped it right into
the power supply on top of some sort of a capacitor.

BLAMMO!! I blew myself back maybe about six feet right on my fanny.

This was the first experimental evidence that I ever had which
confirmed that direct application of +12 volage at high amperage is
superior to caffeine for treating drowsiness.

But I found the bug.

Embrace electrons. Plug in the second Ethernet adaptor.

22-Mar-2009 18:26:59-PDT,2783;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:10:08 -0600
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Subject: Re: question about KLH10...
From: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
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Cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
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> Embrace electrons. Plug in the second Ethernet adaptor.

LOL.
Okay.

No sparks, no smoke.
I won't be using it, but it looks like it would work fine.

24-Mar-2009 12:10:30-PDT,2517;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:51:59 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: klt20 without an additional ethernet hardware...
To: [email protected]
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I was able to get klh to run on my linux box using tap0, tap1, etc...
I am able to ftp and telnet to sites which support that.

the connections say I am coming from my linux box.

I have something you need to do as root to access teh taps.

echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE

then you need to boot the MMCM changes to panda-dist, which
will let you connect to the linux box as if it was its own.

klt20.ini also has to be changed to setup your non-internet internet
addresses, and you need to do that for the klh20 files as well.
(internet.addresses, internet.gateways, and hosts.txt as well
as resolv.config in domain:)
Here's a copy of klt20.ini:
c
cq; Define basic device config - one DTE, one disk, one tape
devdef dte0 200 dte master
devdef rh0 540 rh20
devdef rh1 544 rh20
devdef dsk0 rh0.0 rp type=rp07 format=dbd9
devdef mta0 rh1.0 tm03 type=tu45

; Set Ethernet address
;devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ipaddr=192.168.50.100 tunaddr=192.168.50.33
; cks: matches <system>intenet.address etc
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ipaddr=192.168.36.20 tunaddr=192.168.36.1

; Define the idle device on 700
devdef idler 700 host

; Set switch register
set sw=254200,,147

; Set console lights I/O base register
;Uncomment the following line if you have a Panda display.
;lights 378

; Load disk bootstrap directly
load boot.sav

; Ready to GO

let me and chris smith know if anything breaks. DOn't forget
to use the MMCM changes when doing this.

-------

24-Mar-2009 12:11:57-PDT,1056;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:35:16 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: one more thing..
To: [email protected]
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You can't do incoming ftp/telnet/finger/mail from the sites
I have up. You probably need another ethernet interface to do that.

just wanted you guys to know..

-------

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:37:07 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Subject: (Extraordinary) minor comment error for OT%FDY in MONSYM.MAC
To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
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I just noticed the following line in my MONSYM.

OT%FDY==:1B2 ;OUTPUT NUMERIC MONTH

That's wrong, it should be:

OT%FDY==:1B2 ;OUTPUT DAY OF WEEK IN FULL

The bit appears to be defined properly (I checked DATIME.MAC)
and it is documented properly in JSYS_REFERENCE.

24-Mar-2009 14:09:33-PDT,2895;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:53:43 -0600
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: one more thing..
From: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
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Well you can't do incoming anything to a private (192.168.0.0) address.

If you down your internet gateway, and give that IP address to dpni20
(by editing klt20.ini) you should
be able to telnet from outside to that. (Linux would be off the air
while this is going on)

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan A. Solomon
<[email protected]> wrote:
> You can't do incoming ftp/telnet/finger/mail from the sites
> I have up. You probably need another ethernet interface to do that.
>
> just wanted you guys to know..

24-Mar-2009 16:22:00-PDT,1474;000000000000
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[email protected]
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(message from Chris Smith on Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:53:43 -0600)
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ok. that's fine. I won't bother, I like the way things are
going now.

thanx again for your time and effort.

--jsol

29-Mar-2009 08:33:17-PDT,1987;000000000000
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To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: GJ%FOU,GJ%NEW,GJ%NEW
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What does it mean to specify both GJ%FOU and GJ%OLD in the same GTJFN%
call?

The first bit means that the given file specification is assigned the
next higher generation number. GJ%OLD means that file specification
given must refer to an existing file. So I thought that GJ%FOU would
normally only be used with GJ%NEW.

What does specifying that the next highest generation number is to be
associated with an old file? Only succeed with a new file if there
is an existing old file? Only do the work if somebody has already
created the file? If so, that's pretty cool.

But I don't recall ever using it. I just happened to notice it in the
PANDA ACJ.

30-Mar-2009 14:44:06-PDT,1142;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:24:53 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: bugfix for the panda exec
To: [email protected]
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I made a change to the panda exec to abbreviated commands for @INFORMATION.

The bug was that the not-logged-in exec commands didn't abbreviate
the @INFORMATION commands.

The files are <jsol>*.mac on xkleten.paulallen.com...

-------

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:44:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec
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On Mon, 30 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> The bug was that the not-logged-in exec commands didn't abbreviate
> the @INFORMATION commands.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

30-Mar-2009 15:11:15-PDT,1448;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:02:42 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec
To: [email protected]
cc: [email protected]
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do @info ? and see the entries which require login.. they usually
say "?login please". The normal @? is only a limited number
of commands, just what can be done from not-logged in.

@info ? had a bunch of entries which aren't appropriate for
not-logged-in, and I removed them from not-logged-in commands
doing what the XKL exec does already.

if you are still confused, let me know and I will see what
I can do.

--jsol
-------

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec
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On Mon, 30 Mar 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> @info ? had a bunch of entries which aren't appropriate for
> not-logged-in, and I removed them from not-logged-in commands
> doing what the XKL exec does already.

So it's not a bug, but rather a feature that's in the XKL EXEC that you
think should be in other EXECs.

Please categorize feature suggestions separately from bugs; and please
avoid vague comments like "not-logged-in exec commands didn't abbreviate
the @INFORMATION commands".

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

30-Mar-2009 15:30:02-PDT,1105;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:25:51 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bugfix for the panda exec
To: [email protected]
cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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ok. you're right. I think the job was not completed when @? was
implemented.

--jsol
-------

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:41:33 -0600
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Subject: Re: GJ%FOU,GJ%NEW,GJ%NEW
From: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
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Well, here are some experiments. It's a little weird.

@sddt
DDT
1[ 0 GJ%SHT+GJ%FOU+GJ%OLD+GJ%MSG+GJ%FNS
2[ 0 .PRIIN,,.PRIOU

Ok, GTJFN :

login.cMD.17 !New generation!<SKIP>

GJ%FOU wins.

Or:

login.cmd.17<>

No dice when you type it
30-Mar-2009 19:11:39-PDT,6463;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:05:44 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
Subject: Shutdown Messages
To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
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Symptom:
========

For shutdowns that are set VERY close to the present time (about five
minutes or less in the future), the EXEC appears to display incorrect
results. SYSTAT SYSTEM will display the downtime, but INFORMATION
DOWNTIME does not. Since users may become anxious about the impending
loss of service, it makes sense to ensure that they get consistent
information.

Example:
========

!^ECEASE +00:04:00 +1:00:00
TOMMYT Shut down scheduled for 30-Mar-2009 20:39:55
[Confirm]
Reason: None
!SYSTAT SYSTEM
Mon 30-Mar-2009 20:36:06 Up 356:07:50
5+7 Jobs Load av 0.02 0.03 0.05

No operator in attendance

System is remedial

The system will go down today at 20:39:55 until 21:35:56
for None
!INFORMATION DOWN
Shutdown Time: Up Again:
23-Mar-2029 11:02:00 11:10:00
Testing shutdown routines
27-Mar-2035 08:00:00 16:00:00
Major hardware upgrade
28-Mar-2036 16:00:00 29-May-2036 19:00:00
Preventive Maintainence

Background:
===========

For my last UP2LNG BUGHLT, my expected crash time was VERY early in
the morning (2:41:36AM-EDT). I abruptly decided early in the evening
that I didn't want to stay up that late and did the shutdown.

I had system messages turned off my terminal, so I didn't see any
message when I did the ^ECEASE. And INFORMATION DOWNTIME didn't show
anything either... So I became Deeply Confused and started looking
around MEXEC after the reload.

Analysis:
=========

The problem isn't with the EXEC, but rather it is an interaction
between a program that it invokes called MHALT and the Access Control
Job (ACJ) which implements queued shutdowns. MHALT only reads the
shutdown queue; it does not check the running monitor.

There are currently at least two situations in which a shutdown can be
in effect, but not in the queue file. If a shutdown is set in the
VERY near future, the ACJ will not queue it. Another situation is a
system which is not currently running an ACJ.

In these cases, the only way to get this information is to use GETAB%
(this is for normal users, so we'll leave PEEK% and XPEEK% out of the
discussion).

Cure:
=====

Insert code into MHALT to do the GETAB%. Since MHALT is small and
quite straightforward, this is a relatively simple task:

Shutdown Time: Up Again: Reason:
(Today) 8:39:55PM-EDT 9:35:56PM-EDT None
Fri 23-Mar-2029 11:02:00AM-EDT 11:10:00AM-EDT Testing shutdown routines
Tue 27-Mar-2035 8:00:00AM-EDT 4:00:00PM-EDT Major hardware upgrade
Fri 28-Mar-2036 4:00:00PM-EDT Thu 29-May-2036 7:00:00PM-EDT Preventive Maintainence
%Current active shutdown is NOT queued

Additional:
===========

In fact, I didn't fix Mark's venerable program. I completely rewrote
it from scratch and addressed some other issues, all of which can
rightfully be seen as nearly hopelessly irrelevant or mere cutenesses.

I'm suffering from a lot of second system effect these days... For
example, the new program EMHALT is an extended mode program which is
CLEARLY not required.

1) GETAB% for active unqueued downtimes
2) Code to highlight shutdowns that are for today
3) Code to handle formatting issues for shutdowns that are after
27-Sep-2217 20:00:00 (a truely impending problem...)
4) Different formating for terminals with limited lines or more
suitable for columnar cut and pastes.
5) Code the avoid opening the queue file altogether (via REENTER)
6) Handle a CONTINUE by regetting information
7) Code to check for inconsistencies in the queue file (none of
which can happen during normal ACJ operation):
a) Out of Order shutdown queue times
b) Uptimes which are BEFORE shutdown times
c) Uptimes and/or downtimes which are before the current time of
day (if it is set)
d) Systems with no active down time that still have downtimes in
the queue file
e) Systems with active shutdowns that are after queued shutdowns
f) Queue files with holes in them
g) Inconsistently formatted shutdown (non-integral) blocks in the
shutdown queue file
h) A (perhaps somewhat) lessened chance of getting inconsistent
information: the shutdown queue file is PMAP%ed with PM%PLD,
XBLT'ed and then closed
i) Systems with odd GETAB% tables (which can happen if you are
doing HSYS% development as I did a few years ago)
8) Properly display program version information via PDV's, since
the third slot in the entry vector is used for non-version
related information.

Again, I'm not critiquing Mark's work at all. MHALT has obviously
worked fine for years and little or none of this stuff is of any
overwhelming importance. I'll follow up with him seperately to see
if EMHALT might become part of the PANDA canon.

7-Apr-2009 20:10:24-PDT,1993;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11
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The original release of KLH10 (at http://klh-10.trailing-edge.com) built very
nicely on Mac OS X. However, I'd really like to have the fixes in Mark's
updated version (and probably MMcM's, as well).

Problem is, the dvlites.c source includes a file <asm/io.h> that does not exist
on Mac OS X--or at least, not on the PowerPC versions. What is this file, and
why do I want it?

Leaving that aside, there is also the issue of System V memory handling. I got
some advice on this from an Apple developer in the 10.2 to 10.3 transition time
frame which never worked. Has anyone else ever built KLH10 on a PowerPC Mac
and had it work as well as on Linux or other Intel-centric operating systems?

Rich

7-Apr-2009 20:15:02-PDT,2135;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Problem is, the dvlites.c source includes a file <asm/io.h> that does
> not exist on Mac OS X--or at least, not on the PowerPC versions. What
> is this file, and why do I want it?

You must be trying to do a Linux build. For a PPC Mac, using the fbppc
build. You'll probably also need to add "-Dregister=" to the compile
flags in newer versions of gcc.

> Leaving that aside, there is also the issue of System V memory handling.
> I got some advice on this from an Apple developer in the 10.2 to 10.3
> transition time frame which never worked. Has anyone else ever built
> KLH10 on a PowerPC Mac and had it work as well as on Linux or other
> Intel-centric operating systems?

I ran it for quite a while on a PPC Mac without issue.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
(message from Mark Crispin on Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT))
Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>

> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> Problem is, the dvlites.c source includes a file <asm/io.h> that does
>> not exist on Mac OS X--or at least, not on the PowerPC versions. What
>> is this file, and why do I want it?

> You must be trying to do a Linux build. For a PPC Mac, using the fbppc
> build. You'll probably also need to add "-Dregister=" to the compile
> flags in newer versions of gcc.

Same error using fbppc.

I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release, so I was
willing to accept that something might need to be changed, but that's not it.

What lives in asm/io.h?

>> Leaving that aside, there is also the issue of System V memory handling.
>> I got some advice on this from an Apple developer in the 10.2 to 10.3
>> transition time frame which never worked. Has anyone else ever built
>> KLH10 on a PowerPC Mac and had it work as well as on Linux or other
>> Intel-centric operating systems?

> I ran it for quite a while on a PPC Mac without issue.

I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the initialization
complaint about insufficient shared memory.

Thanks,
Rich

8-Apr-2009 08:31:42-PDT,5533;000000000000
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To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Same error using fbppc.

Not on my system. The entire dvlites.c module is switched off under an
#if conditional (the file is compiled, but there's nothing generated).
Only the Linux makefile enables it.

> I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release

That's your problem! I'll bet that you hacked a Linux makefile.
Attached is the proper fbppc Makefile.

> What lives in asm/io.h?

That contains the definitions for raw I/O (outb(), etc.) on Linux. The
fact that you are getting there indicates to me that you have turned on
the code for the Panda lights panel which is only supported on Linux.

Nor is it reasonable to support the Panda lights panel on Mac OS X; it is
a parallel port device. As far as I know no Mac hardware has ever had a
parallel port.

> I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the initialization
> complaint about insufficient shared memory.

Did you run it as root and/or setuid root? You get that message when
klh10 isn't root; it'll run but won't be able to set up the shared memory
fully. The dpni20 module must run as root, and the kn20-kl module should
run as root.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
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In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
(message from Mark Crispin on Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT))
Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11
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> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>

> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> Same error using fbppc.

> Not on my system. The entire dvlites.c module is switched off under an
> #if conditional (the file is compiled, but there's nothing generated).
> Only the Linux makefile enables it.

I haven't had time ot return to this for a few weeks.

The fbppc makefile Mk-fbppc.mk which I tried is exactly the same as the one
Mark included with the response above.

>> I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release

> That's your problem! I'll bet that you hacked a Linux makefile.
> Attached is the proper fbppc Makefile.

No, that's *not* my problem (and you lose that bet). I get the exact same
error whether I try using the makefile I cobbled together from a FreeBSD
makefile several years ago, or fbppc from the Panda distribution.

Note that the old makefile was for 2.0a, from Ken's original distribution at
Trailing Edge. I don't know why it's even finding dvlites.c.

>> I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the initialization
>> complaint about insufficient shared memory.

> Did you run it as root and/or setuid root? You get that message when
> klh10 isn't root; it'll run but won't be able to set up the shared memory
> fully. The dpni20 module must run as root, and the kn20-kl module should
> run as root.

I get that message even if every executable in the directory is setuid root.

Rich

28-Apr-2009 12:56:54-PDT,2109;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT)
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I apologize for beating on these equines, but I can't seem to compile kn10ops.c
on a bog standard x86 Linux box (Slackware 12). gcc complains about attempts
to get the address of two register variables ('d' on line 796, in function
x_ashc, and 'qw' on line 3266, in function qdivstep).

Clearly, I have not set up some environment variable(s) or other to tell the
bloody compiler and build system what to do. I simply followed the install.txt
instructions to create a KLH10_HOME variable and directory (/opt/klh10, in my
case), cd to bld/lnx86, and type "make base-kl".

This is interfering with real honest to $DEITY work. I need to load up a large
number of disk images with Tops-10 source and binary directories, very quickly.

Any suggestions as to what is going on here?

Rich

28-Apr-2009 14:11:59-PDT,1647;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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The compiler messages are due to anal-retentive behavior added in gcc4.
Just remove the two offending register declarations. I just did so in my
copy.

As for the build on Mac OS X; it builds cleanly for me on PPC and x86. I
wonder if you have older bits in something else.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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Rich,

Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This
has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is
running.

If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl
changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system
startup.

My sysctl.conf has the following in it:

#
# Expand shared memory settings a lot
#
kern.sysv.shmmax=268435456
kern.sysv.shmmin=1
kern.sysv.shmmni=256
kern.sysv.shmseg=256
kern.sysv.shmall=262144

Since I set that up, I never see any "insufficient shared memory"
messages, under either Tiger or Leopard.

John

On 28 Apr 2009, at 15:14, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
>
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
>
>>> Same error using fbppc.
>
>> Not on my system. The entire dvlites.c module is switched off
>> under an
>> #if conditional (the file is compiled, but there's nothing
>> generated).
>> Only the Linux makefile enables it.
>
> I haven't had time ot return to this for a few weeks.
>
> The fbppc makefile Mk-fbppc.mk which I tried is exactly the same as
> the one
> Mark included with the response above.
>
>>> I was using a Makefile for PPC that I created for the old release
>
>> That's your problem! I'll bet that you hacked a Linux makefile.
>> Attached is the proper fbppc Makefile.
>
> No, that's *not* my problem (and you lose that bet). I get the
> exact same
> error whether I try using the makefile I cobbled together from a
> FreeBSD
> makefile several years ago, or fbppc from the Panda distribution.
>
> Note that the old makefile was for 2.0a, from Ken's original
> distribution at
> Trailing Edge. I don't know why it's even finding dvlites.c.
>
>>> I ran it for quite a while. I simply grew tired of the
>>> initialization
>>> complaint about insufficient shared memory.
>
>> Did you run it as root and/or setuid root? You get that message when
>> klh10 isn't root; it'll run but won't be able to set up the shared
>> memory
>> fully. The dpni20 module must run as root, and the kn20-kl module
>> should
>> run as root.
>
> I get that message even if every executable in the directory is
> setuid root.
>
> Rich
>

29-Apr-2009 12:23:34-PDT,2345;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]>
(message from Mark Crispin on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT))
Subject: Re: KLH10 compilation problem on Linux X86
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
ReSent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
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> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>

> The compiler messages are due to anal-retentive behavior added in gcc4.
> Just remove the two offending register declarations. I just did so in my
> copy.

Thanks, that worked a champ!

> As for the build on Mac OS X; it builds cleanly for me on PPC and x86. I
> wonder if you have older bits in something else.

So I decided to flush everything and start over. I put KLH10_HOME in /opt,
copied the entirety of the Panda distribution from the CD you gave me to a
root-level directory /panda-distribution, cd'd to bld/fbppc, and (after getting
rid of one register declaration) "make base-kl" was successful.

Thanks for the push^Wsuggestion!

Rich

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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from John
Francini on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400)
Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:33:15 -0400 (EDT)
ReSent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
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ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23)

> From: John Francini <[email protected]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400

> Rich,

> Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This
> has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is
> running.

I've tried that for a long time, and it never took.

> If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl
> changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system
> startup.

I was following the suggestion of an Apple Xcode developer and changing
entries in one of the system property lists. Putting your suggested
/etc/sysctl.conf on my system and rebooting worked like a charm with both
the old 2.0a compile and the newly successful 2.0h compile.

Thanks, John, and thanks everyone for your patience.

Rich

3-May-2009 18:20:01-PDT,6542;000000000000
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: KLH10 on Mac OS X 10.4.11
References: <[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
<[email protected]>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------000506090400060108090704
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rich Alderson wrote:
>> From: John Francini <[email protected]>
>> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400
>>
>
>
>> Rich,
>>
>
>
>> Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This
>> has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is
>> running.
>>
>
> I've tried that for a long time, and it never took.
>
>
>> If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl
>> changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system
>> startup.
>>
>
> I was following the suggestion of an Apple Xcode developer and changing
> entries in one of the system property lists. Putting your suggested
> /etc/sysctl.conf on my system and rebooting worked like a charm with both
> the old 2.0a compile and the newly successful 2.0h compile.
>
> Thanks, John, and thanks everyone for your patience.
>
> Rich
>
>
>
Rich,
I for one like the traffic on the list. My provder dropped alt.sys.pdp10
so new mail on the list got back into the KLH installs on my macines.
Thanks for that. The questions you asked were percolating in my
situation too, so the answers helped me - especially the shared memory
reminders. Won' t repeat what I said to myself when I looked and found
I had upgraded systems and forgot to set the kernel parameters properly.
I am tring to compile a cheat sheet of tricks and reminders for how to
do a good
set up for KLH10 running TOPS 20. All those things I forgot, all the hints
on terminal setups, in a handy place. Will put them up on a web page.
so, THANKS!! good questions!
bob

--
---
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--------------000506090400060108090704
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Rich Alderson wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:[email protected]"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: John Francini <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:21:38 -0400
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Rich,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Have you tried changing the sysctl settings for shared memory? This
has to be done at system startup; it can't be done once the system is
running.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I've tried that for a long time, and it never took.

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If you create the file /etc/sysctl.conf, and put in all the sysctl
changes you need, it will be executed automatically during system
startup.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I was following the suggestion of an Apple Xcode developer and changing
entries in one of the system property lists. Putting your suggested
/etc/sysctl.conf on my system and rebooting worked like a charm with both
the old 2.0a compile and the newly successful 2.0h compile.

Thanks, John, and thanks everyone for your patience.

Rich

</pre>
</blockquote>
Rich, 
I for one like the traffic on the list.  My provder dropped
alt.sys.pdp10 
so new mail on the list got back into the KLH installs on my macines. 
Thanks for that. The questions you asked were percolating in my 
situation too, so the answers helped me - especially the shared memory 
reminders. Won' t repeat what I said to myself when I looked and found 
I had upgraded systems and forgot to set the kernel parameters properly. 
I am tring to compile a cheat sheet of tricks and reminders for how to
do a good 
set up for KLH10 running TOPS 20.  All those things I forgot, all the
hints 
on terminal setups, in a handy place.  Will put them up on a web page. 
so, THANKS!! good questions! 
bob 
 
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
---
This Sig Line Intentionally Left Blank</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------000506090400060108090704--

3-May-2009 18:22:52-PDT,1156;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 17:35:30 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: panda monitor
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: panda monitor
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I run the panda monitor from the trailing-edge panda-dist.tar.gz file.

I log in, enable, then run <window>window. while still enabled,
the program bughlt's as "piovfw"

when I disable and run <window>window it says "control-c capability required"
but doesn't bughlt.

-------

3-May-2009 18:25:46-PDT,1082;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 17:48:44 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: more on the previous message
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:22 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
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I build a non-wheel account on my machine, and when
I run <window>window it says "control-c capability required".
when I enable (no privs at all), it runs just fine...

-------

3-May-2009 18:28:37-PDT,1003;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:13:20 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: more
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:17:42 -0700 (PDT)
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sorry about this many messsages...

When I run ptycon (which I know requires ^C capability), it
works fine. even when disabled.

--jsol
-------

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Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 19:59:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: panda monitor
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Sun, 3 May 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> I log in, enable, then run <window>window. while still enabled,
> the program bughlt's as "piovfw"

This was fixed two years ago. PSIPG needs to be 3 pages, not 2.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

4-May-2009 16:36:31-PDT,1569;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:26:45 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: kl10-kl and the panda monitr
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
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ReSent-Subject: kl10-kl and the panda monitr
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I did a compile on the monitor sources on my kn10-kl machine.
I had two copies running (in separate directories).

One of the compilations worked, but the other one had to be done
more than once.

I did it again on an MIT machine (without superuser) and
it did exactly the same thing. One compilation worked, the
other one had to be repeated.

I found this by placing the new monitr in <system>new.exe.
then in Boot> I said "new".

itsaid

[tops20 mounted]
and hung.

when I recompiled it, it ran just fine.

i don't know if any of you had any input on this, but it is
possible that there may be a problem with the emulator.

--jsol
-------

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Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: kl10-kl and the panda monitr
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 4 May 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> One of the compilations worked, but the other one had to be done
> more than once.
> i don't know if any of you had any input on this, but it is
> possible that there may be a problem with the emulator.

This is not a problem in the emulator.

You didn't examine the build log to see if the build was successful. If
you had, you would have noticed that your first build failed due to psect
overlaps, and that the build wrote new psect definitions so that a rebuild
would work.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

4-May-2009 17:06:37-PDT,946;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:53:53 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: panda monitr/kl10-kl...
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:03:25 -0700 (PDT)
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Thanx, Mark. That looks like what happened.

-------

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Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006?

Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly
compiled
under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit?

I am arguing with my dual cpu amd box, trying to run the panda distro
from june. The
computer does no want to listen to me.... Running 64bit version of
ubuntu 8.10, and the
compiler issue bit me, but the KLH10 binary set in the june distro does
start.
Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want
to pick the
wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always want to let me in the
console.
thanks
bob smith

--------------020300020507090401070108
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june
2006? 
 
Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly 
compiled 
under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit? 
  
I am arguing with my dual cpu amd box, trying to run the panda distro
from june.  The 
computer does no want to listen to me.... Running 64bit version of
ubuntu 8.10, and the 
compiler issue bit me, but the KLH10 binary set in the june distro does
start. 
Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want
to pick the 
wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always want to let me in the
console. 
thanks 
bob smith 
 

</body>
</html>

--------------020300020507090401070108--

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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: bob smith <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: two questions KLH and Panda
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ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
ReSent-To: TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
ReSent-Subject: Re: two questions KLH and Panda
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 8 May 2009, bob smith wrote:
> Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006?

That's the current release version. I've let out some pre-releases, but
I'm waiting for Tom's new FTP server before troubling everybody with a
release.

> Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly
> compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit?

You need to make a new build, since none of the existing builds is right.
You'll also need to create an AMD64 CPU type in the sources, looking at
what is in X86, SPARC, and AXP. It shouldn't be too hard but it will be
tedious.

Now, if you're expecting me to do this, you'll have to wait a while. My
current only AMD64 Ubuntu machine is dedicated for other (work!) purposes;
everything else is x86 or PPC.

> Takes 100% cpu, and despite
> setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to want to pick the wrong ethernet
> interface, and it does not always want to let me in the console.

Well, it's 32-bit and built years ago. At least it has static libraries!

I'm not surprise that it takes up 100% CPU. It will do that unless the
idle device is set up and works. Also, newer Linux systems don't work
right with the fancy clock, so you have to go back to the old clock.

Are you sure that you set up klh10.ini correctly, with ifc= set to the
right interface? I have:
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifc=eth1
on my two machines.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

8-May-2009 15:42:33-PDT,6663;000000000000
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, 8 May 2009, bob smith wrote:
>> Is there an updated panda distribution, later than june 2006?
>
> That's the current release version. I've let out some pre-releases,
> but I'm waiting for Tom's new FTP server before troubling everybody
> with a release.
>
>> Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on how to get KLH10 properly
>> compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit?
>
> You need to make a new build, since none of the existing builds is
> right. You'll also need to create an AMD64 CPU type in the sources,
> looking at what is in X86, SPARC, and AXP. It shouldn't be too hard
> but it will be tedious.
>
> Now, if you're expecting me to do this, you'll have to wait a while.
> My current only AMD64 Ubuntu machine is dedicated for other (work!)
> purposes; everything else is x86 or PPC.
>
>> Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the klt20.ini, it seems to
>> want to pick the wrong ethernet interface, and it does not always
>> want to let me in the console.
>
> Well, it's 32-bit and built years ago. At least it has static libraries!
>
> I'm not surprise that it takes up 100% CPU. It will do that unless
> the idle device is set up and works. Also, newer Linux systems don't
> work right with the fancy clock, so you have to go back to the old clock.
>
> Are you sure that you set up klh10.ini correctly, with ifc= set to the
> right interface? I have:
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifc=eth1
> on my two machines.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>
Mark,
thanks!! I think you gave me the hint - I don't have dedic=true!
I will be glad to host the panda distros if you want, I have a dedicated
5mbit static
ip conneciton. Just let me know!!
I will continue arguing with gcc 4.3, and ubuntu, will keep you all posted.

thanks again.

--
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Mark Crispin wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:[email protected]"
type="cite">On Fri, 8 May 2009, bob smith wrote:
 
<blockquote type="cite">Is there an updated panda distribution, later
than june 2006?
 
</blockquote>
 
That's the current release version.  I've let out some pre-releases,
but I'm waiting for Tom's new FTP server before troubling everybody
with a release.
 
 
<blockquote type="cite">Does anyone have a cheat sheet or hints on
how to get KLH10 properly compiled under ubuntu 8.10, 64 bit?
 
</blockquote>
 
You need to make a new build, since none of the existing builds is
right. You'll also need to create an AMD64 CPU type in the sources,
looking at what is in X86, SPARC, and AXP.  It shouldn't be too hard
but it will be tedious.
 
 
Now, if you're expecting me to do this, you'll have to wait a while. 
My current only AMD64 Ubuntu machine is dedicated for other (work!)
purposes; everything else is x86 or PPC.
 
 
<blockquote type="cite">Takes 100% cpu, and despite setting up the
klt20.ini, it seems to want to pick the wrong ethernet interface, and
it does not always want to let me in the console.
 
</blockquote>
 
Well, it's 32-bit and built years ago.  At least it has static
libraries!
 
 
I'm not surprise that it takes up 100% CPU.  It will do that unless the
idle device is set up and works.  Also, newer Linux systems don't work
right with the fancy clock, so you have to go back to the old clock.
 
 
Are you sure that you set up klh10.ini correctly, with ifc= set to the
right interface?  I have:
 
    devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifc=eth1
 
on my two machines.
 
 
-- Mark --
 
 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://panda.com/tops-20">http://panda.com/tops-20</a>
 
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
 
 
</blockquote>
Mark, 
thanks!! I think you gave me the hint - I don't have dedic=true! 
I will be glad to host the panda distros if you want, I have a
dedicated 5mbit static 
ip conneciton. Just let me know!! 
I will continue arguing with gcc 4.3, and ubuntu, will keep you all
posted. 
 
thanks again. 
 
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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10-May-2009 18:21:11-PDT,1125;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 16:45:08 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: resolver on panda monitor
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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ReSent-Subject: resolver on panda monitor
ReSent-Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Does anyone know how to set up the RESOLVer to work with my
panda monitor? I can connect to hosts which are in hosts.txt,
and I can connect to [host.host.host.host]s. I just have to set up
the resolver.

--jsol
-------

10-May-2009 18:33:24-PDT,2048;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor
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On Sun, 10 May 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> Does anyone know how to set up the RESOLVer to work with my
> panda monitor? I can connect to hosts which are in hosts.txt,
> and I can connect to [host.host.host.host]s. I just have to set up
> the resolver.

Did you read the file README in the UNIX side of the Panda distribution?
It states:

DOMAIN:RESOLV.CONFIG to define your DNS servers, your default
domain (replacing MYDOMAIN.COM) and any
users in addition to OPERATOR who can
send control messages to the resolver.

If you have not yet read the README file, please do so now.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

10-May-2009 19:18:24-PDT,1276;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:33:39 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: resolver on panda monitor
To: [email protected]
cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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I did what you requested, I just need to know which host address
I should use in the domain:resolv.config file. I tried doing 192.94.36.20
(which is the one that twenex.org uses).

I also tied to use my unix host but I don't run named on that machine.

-------

11-May-2009 08:52:50-PDT,3350;000000000000
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Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 08:05:00 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: [Chris Smith <[email protected]>: Re: resolver on panda monitor]
To: [email protected]
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thanx, that worked.
---------------

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From: Chris Smith <[email protected]>
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Hi Jsol --

Try the name servers from /etc/resolv.conf.

Chris

On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Jonathan A. Solomon
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I did what you requested, I just need to know which host address
> I should use in the domain:resolv.config file. I tried doing 192.94.36.20
> (which is the one that twenex.org uses).
>
> I also tied to use my unix host but I don't run named on that machine.
>
> -------
>
>
-------

17-May-2009 00:19:05-PDT,964;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: 26 years ago today...
To: [email protected]
Pithy-Thought: TOPS-20 was a great improvement over its successors
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On May 17, 1983, Project Jupiter was cancelled, and with that came Digital's
fateful decision not to build any more new PDP-10 models.
-------

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Mark Crispin wrote:
> On May 17, 1983, Project Jupiter was cancelled, and with that came Digital's
> fateful decision not to build any more new PDP-10 models.
> -------
>
>
>

I don't have a good retort. I only have a comparison with the auto industry.

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Yes, and only 5 years later, it was clear to most that DEC was in
serious decline. 10 years later, Bob "the Undertaker" Palmer was
at work burying the remains.

All thanks to the "One egg, one basket" strategy. IMO.

-d

Mark Crispin wrote:
> On May 17, 1983, Project Jupiter was cancelled, and with that came Digital's
> fateful decision not to build any more new PDP-10 models.
> -------
>
>
>

17-May-2009 15:16:00-PDT,2060;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Dan Murphy <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 26 years ago today...
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On Sun, 17 May 2009, Dan Murphy wrote:
> Yes, and only 5 years later, it was clear to most that DEC was in
> serious decline.

I'm glad to hear you say that. Certain ex-Digital individuals have
vehemently disagreed with me when I said something similar.

> 10 years later, Bob "the Undertaker" Palmer was at work burying the
> remains.

Digital went off in many directions post-1988, none of which seemed to
have any relationship to what it did before. After killing off everything
other than VAX and VMS, Digital promptly went off in a shotgun approach on
additional architectures (RISC and AXP) and operating systems (Ultrix,
OSF/1, NT).

> All thanks to the "One egg, one basket" strategy. IMO.

Which is weird given subsequent events.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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--------
[Mark Crispin <[email protected]> writes:]

> > Yes, and only 5 years later, it was clear to most that DEC was in
> > serious decline.
> I'm glad to hear you say that. Certain ex-Digital individuals have
> vehemently disagreed with me when I said something similar.

The defining moment for me was when DEC sued the federal government to
keep the feds from specifying POSIX compliance. I had no doubt that it
was all going to be downhill from there.

Andy

19-May-2009 14:11:27-PDT,2418;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Tops-10 on KLH10 2.0h
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:57:34 -0400 (EDT)
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I don't know that anyone else on this list cares about Tops-10 on KLH10, but...

Tops-10 is not restartable under 2.0h, unlike its behaviour on real hardware.
(For those unfamiliar with booting Tops-10: The monitor maps the BOOT program
into its own address space, and when the RSX-20F command SHUTDOWN is executed
the monitor branches into BOOT.)

The following example is repeatable:

.kj
[LGNJSP Other jobs same PPN]
Job 2 User OPR [1,2]
Logged-off CTY at 13:27:08 on 19-May-109
Runtime: 0:00:00, KCS:0, Connect time: 0:00:37
Disk Reads:510, Writes:0, Blocks saved:0

.KLH10>> shut
BOOT>
[Loading from DSKB:SYSTEM.EXE[1,4]]

PDPplanet DECsystem-10 02-Mar-89
Why reload: new
Date: 19-may-2009
Time: 132840
Startup option: go
[DTE: (RCV 11QC 0) != (11's 11QC 240+1)][DTE: To-11 QCT:0. < Header]

After the DTE message, the emulated system is completely hung, although a
return to the KLH10 command processor via ^\ is possible.

Any ideas about what's happening here?

Thanks,
Rich

3-Jun-2009 13:33:47-PDT,2224;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:20:30 -0400
From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
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To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM
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This is a documentation question for the 'new' instruction to save
processor flags. I was performing some arithmatic and wanted to both
save the flags and examine them. Basically I wanted to do the
equivalent of something like an 80x86 PUSHF instruction.

JFCL will do what I want at the expense of whacking the flags. That
suggests something like a JSP, but that doesn't work in a non-zero
section. I remembered an instruction being introduced in a 'new'
version of the KL10 microcode to do this: SFM. I remember even trying
it with USRIO% to see if the I/O bit got set (it did).

My electronic 1982 SYSREF describes the SFM mnemonic on pages 2-72,
2-73, 2-75, 2-137, A-25, E-4, etc...

But MACRO and DDT don't know about it. 25460,,10 assembles as an
instruction called XSFM 10 which appears to put the flags into AC10.
This is a documentation error, right? Or does XSFM do something else?

3-Jun-2009 13:51:01-PDT,1438;000000000000
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Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM
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The opcode is called XSFM in TOPS-20 and is equivalent to JRST 14,

XSFM E stores the PC flags in E. That is made pretty clear on page 2-75.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

3-Jun-2009 15:23:57-PDT,2928;000000000000
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To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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Yes, it is.

But it's called SFM in both the electronic .PDF version that I have of
the 1982 SYSREF and in the 1978 printed edition that I recently found
languishing in my celler. There is no mention of XSFM in either
volume.

I remembered that some things changed with SFM. It's documented as
not working in section 0, but it does (and I thought that I remembered
that it did, too). JRST 14 works in section 0 on a KL, a Toad and
KLH10 (at least I don't get an illegal instruction trap)

I also thought I remembered seeing the mnemonic as SFM way back when.
So when I used SFM in my code and got errors and found that DDT didn't
know about it, I got Confused. It was only by chance that I tried
doing a JRST 14, and discovered the XSFM mnemonic.

Obviously DDT and MACRO have to be the definitive source of record on
any mnemonic. It's just interesting that it appears that from 1978 to
1982 this wasn't changed one way or the other.

My 1996 Toad ARM also documents JRST 14 as being SFM (page 124),
although mention is made of some software knowing it as XSFM. I had
never thought to check this there, though.

Mark Crispin wrote:

> The opcode is called XSFM in TOPS-20 and is equivalent to JRST 14,
>
> XSFM E stores the PC flags in E. That is made pretty clear on page
> 2-75.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

3-Jun-2009 15:36:34-PDT,1850;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: JRST 14, SFM, XSFM
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On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> I remembered that some things changed with SFM. It's documented as
> not working in section 0, but it does

This change occurred in KL ucode 331. User I/O is no longer required to
do XSFM in section 0. However, the PCS state is only saved if Exec mode.
I think that this happened about the same time as the MCA25 (upgrade 2060
to 2065) but I am no longer sure.

XSFM is not permitted on the KS, nor model A KL.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

6-Jun-2009 14:31:47-PDT,3602;000000000000
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While chasing down a pointer problem (what else?), I started running
into more problems with DDT not typing out symbols. It got bad enough
so that I lost everything except opcodes. No symbolic registers,
nothing... Not even trying to open a module's symbol table (module$:)
worked. I had completely zorched my symbols (or so I thought).

I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. Symbols weren't
working in the inferior fork at all. I tried a LOT of things to get
them to work. Linking in RDDT, keeping DDT out of the execution space
until the breakpoint was hit and then mapping it (I call it 'fly-in'
debugging). Nothing...

I finally broke down and looked at the DDT documentation: DDT44C.MEM.
Playing around with $5M got me a place where I could shove a pointer
to the symbol tables and everything came back. For those who lose
symbols, I highly recommend it.

But why? So I did some nosing around in DDT.MAC and found that the
problem was my fault (surprise!) There are a number of things that
DDT tries to do in order get its hands on some symbols. This includes
looking at the program entry vector, the program data vectors and
various other likely locations.

I had inadvertantly shut off access to most of these or never turned
it on in the first place. For example, one place that DDT looks is
what .JBSYM has. But I had a guard page mapped to page 0 in both
section 0 and the program section to catch uninitialized index
stores. Heh...

I use a CFORK% to create the inferior fork and then an SMAP% to punch
the program section down there. But the data fork is created without
program data vectors nor entry vectors. I never bothered with entry
vectors because the control fork is assembled to know the exact start
addresses. Ditto, PDV's--other than setting them when linking the
server, I didn't know much about them; they were after my time at
Columbia.

So DDT couldn't get to the 'lowseg', couldn't get any entry vector
information and there where no PDV's to be found. So no symbols...

What I do now in inferior fork initialisation is take every PDV that
is in the control fork (via a .POGET) and put it in the data fork (via
a .POADD). Symbols!!

Just thought I might save somebody some time in the future...

12-Jun-2009 07:34:28-PDT,1931;000000000000
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From: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
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To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
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Does anybody have any experience coverting Tops-20 mail files into
other formats? I'm doing some reviews and it would really help if I
could use a graphical client, perferably Netscape. I don't even need
native formats, such as .PST's; just something that can be imported.

I know that some programs will do conversions. At one point, I know
that Emacs BABYL mode would and I know that the Columbia Unix MM (C)
would, too.

I obviously can't read stuff via IMAP beause Tops-20 still only has
IMAP2. I wasn't sure about Pine (I barely have the merest tangential
experience with it).

12-Jun-2009 07:47:11-PDT,1992;000000000000
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Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Tops-20 Mail file coversion?
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On Fri, 12 Jun 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> Does anybody have any experience coverting Tops-20 mail files into
> other formats?

My mailutil program, distributed as part of Alpine, supports TOPS-20 mail
files, and can convert to any of several other formats.

> I obviously can't read stuff via IMAP beause Tops-20 still only has
> IMAP2. I wasn't sure about Pine (I barely have the merest tangential
> experience with it).

Alpine (and Pine before it) have always supported TOPS-20 mail files and
IMAP2. I am using Alpine right now to read this message to a TOPS-20 IMAP
server.

Any program based upon my c-client library also ought to work with IMAP2.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

16-Jun-2009 14:20:47-PDT,1132;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:06:50 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: mmailr
To: [email protected]
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I tried submitted a batch job with a "mm send" to
[email protected]. I tried to send mail from
the standard exec running on xlketen.paulallen.com, twenex.org,
and gilgamesh.phiber.com and it sent properly, it just
has to do with batch jobs.
-------

19-Jun-2009 17:50:17-PDT,1198;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:17:45 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: curious..
To: [email protected]
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I am confused about how ACJ works with the panda monitor. Right
now I can not log into a non-files-only directory.... It works fine
on gw.phiber.com, but my emulator and also twenex.org it hangs saying
not valid by the access control facility.

I guess I just need documentation. I think I need doc for acjdec.

-------

19-Jun-2009 18:05:53-PDT,1984;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: curious..
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On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> I am confused about how ACJ works with the panda monitor. Right
> now I can not log into a non-files-only directory.... It works fine
> on gw.phiber.com, but my emulator and also twenex.org it hangs saying
> not valid by the access control facility.

Hangs or fails?

Panda ACJ denies login in the following circumstances:
. userid is frozen
. login on the CTY and not WHEEL, OPERATOR, or MAINTENANCE
. login as OPERATOR, and not on the CTY or a PTY controlled by OPERATOR

> I guess I just need documentation. I think I need doc for acjdec.

Documentation for the DEC ACJ is in <SOURCES> along with its source.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

20-Jun-2009 11:22:42-PDT,1162;000000000000
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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:00:44 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: acj and the panda monitor
To: [email protected]
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: check the [comment] line.

; 3. Record CRDIR% that sets capabilities, disallow CRDIR% of non files-only
; subdirectory.

JN CD%DIR,.GECAB+.CDMOD(D),GRANT ;[comment] allow if files-only

; is this the right line in this file acj.mac?

-------

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From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: panda monitor and acj.
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sorry for the duplication, this is more clear.

-------

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please forgive me again... here's what I wanted to say...
;[comment] this is the title for acj.mac.

TITLE ACJ Access Control Job
SUBTTL Written by Mark Crispin
SEARCH MACSYM,MONSYM,ANAUNV,FNGDEF

ACJVER==7 ; version of ACJ
ACJMIN==1 ; minor version
ACJEDT==^D158 ; edit version

; Access Control Job features:
; 1. Disallow OPERATOR logins/attach if not on CTY or a PTY controlled by
; OPERATOR.
; 2. Disallow login/attach if frozen.
; 3. Record CRDIR% that sets capabilities, disallow CRDIR% of non files-only
; subdirectory.
; 4. Log capabilities enabling.
; 5. Downtime queue management, catch HSYS% and update downtime queue as
; appropriate.
; 6. If FTSETSPD, disallow setting speed on non-dialup terminals if not
; WHEEL or OPERATOR.
; 7. Disallow creating more than MAXFRK forks.
; 8. ACCESS and CONNECT to non-PS: structures works if PS: user group matches.
; 9. Disallow CRJOB% if not WHEEL or OPERATOR.
; 10. Record logout information for FINGER.
; 11. Record entry into MDDT on console.
; 12. Disallow CTY: assign.
; 13. Only allow WOPR or MAINT to log in on CTY

;[comment] this is near the code to allow files-only directory
;[comment] to be created.

IFQN. CD%MOD,.GECFL(D) ; setting mode?
HRRZ A,.GECAB+.CDLEN(D) ; yes, get length of block
CAIGE A,.CDMOD ; has mode word?
IFSKP.
JN CD%DIR,.GECAB+.CDMOD(D),GRANT ; allow if files-only
ENDIF.
ELSE.
SETZ A, ; not setting mode, directory exist?
HRROI B,.GEDIR(D)
RCDIR%
-------

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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:52:01 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: panda monitor and acj b roken...
To: [email protected]
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It looks like the problem is here not in panda. Please ignore my
bug report.

I was successfully made a file-only subdirectory from gilgamesh.phiber.com
that's a current panda machine. I also got it to run on my
locel emulator.

so the problem is somewhere.. I will look forward to that
and I will make sure the bugs I report pertain to panda monitor or xkl.
sorry about my problem...
-------

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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:35:49 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: programming manual needed
To: [email protected]
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Is there some manual to be used for writing .MAC programs.. I remember
writing code back in the version 5 days. Now I have to write modifications
to smtjfn.mac to do "spamming" protection. We are receiving spam from
"yahoo.com.tw" host. Now I can define that site to be rejected, but I
want to put the list of hosts to reject into a file, so I can
add and remove sites as needed.

any help is grateful.

--jsol
-------

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I think the best refresher would be looking at Ralph Gorin's
"Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming"

I saw PostScript files for it on-line (at XKL?) at some point; does
anyone know if they're still available?? PostScript is easily
converted to PDF (with GhostScript), which would be a comfortable way
to read it on-line.

Phil

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Does anyone know where I can pick up a hardcopy of the gorin manual?

-------

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> Does anyone know where I can pick up a hardcopy of the gorin manual?

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Decsystem-20-Assembly-Language-Programming/dp/0932376126/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251132376&sr=1-1

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: tops-20 assembly manual
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I need info about picking up a copy of the manual. Right now I can't
use lynx... (it doesn't work well under my linux box).

Can I send a check or money order to some place (the publisher,
I guess) and order it for delivery.

thanx
--jsol
-------

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J,

For what it's worth, you may recall that I had to solve a somewhat
similar (in spirit) problem a few years ago when I wrote a MACRO
program to compute the set difference of two lists of machine names.
The machine lists were approxmately five thousand entries in size at
an average of 11 characters per machine name.

At the time, I didn't have my copy of Knuth on me (it's SOMEWHERE), so
I chose a binary search as the approach. From my undergraduate Data
Structures class (1978!!), I remembered that this will give you
'reasonable' search speeds, particularly as lists get large (see
above). But I also frankly admit that I used binary search because it
was the only kind of search that I remembered how to implement! This
was due in part to the fact that my extended mode FTP server does a
LOT of COMND% keyword searches, TBLUK%, TBADD% and TBDEL%. So I was
familiar with the concepts.

I started with the TBLUK% table format as a model and then adapted it
to my needs for increased speed and storage capacity. For example, a
regular TBLUK% table can 'only' be a single section in length. Unlike
TBLUK%, I used counted strings with one word global pointers--this
enabled me to bum some instructions out of the compare loop and speed
some things up. The program uses extended mode because I had wanted
dynamic tables that could approach 30 sections in size. I thought
that this was necessary given the anticipated size of the data sets
that I was processing. It turns out that it was complete overkill.

The keyword compare logic itself is modeled on STCMP% (surprised?) and
uses case insensitive compares. As an aside, I had thought that there
was an extended string instruction to do this--sort of a 'compare
translated' (see MOVST) and was shocked to find that such a thing does
NOT exist on the PDP-10. It does on the 360! SYSREF's recommendation
is to use a MOVST first to upper case everything and then do the
CMPSE. That won't work for read-only tables or can get you a large
'dirty' working set and burns up memory. I wanted every byte I could
get for the pointer tables. Compare String Translated gets my vote
for a new extended instruction.

My sort code is slow, dog slow. Woof. Awful. I cringe at the
thought of peer review. However, it special cases input files that
are already sorted (which these data sets were). With input files of
43 and 37 pages respectively, I get a wall time 2.24 seconds and CPU
time of 2.19 seconds. As my system was largely unloaded at the time
that I ran the SETDIF fork, the processor Utilization was approxiately
97.53%.

If you'd like a copy of the program, please e-mail me off list and I
will be happy to send it to you. Like anything I write, it is
copiously (some say overly) commented, some remarks being more useful
and some being flat out obtuse. Sorry! I am unfortunately in no
position to provide any mentoring or further explanation on it (I
barely had time to write this)

My immediate recommendation to you would be to look at the TBLUK%,
TBDEL% and TBADD% Jsyi in the Monitor Calls Reference Manual (see
section 3.244). The JSYS Users Guide unfortunately provides no
examples. The Columbia Assembler Guide (da Cruz and Ryland) provides
some excellent background (see section 5.1). Bear in mind that using
these Jsyi may not provide acceptable performance for large lists.
But I never bothered checking...

Volume Three of Knuth's Art of Computer Programming (?), Sorting and
Searching is not for the faint of heart...

I *highly* recommend Gorin's book as imformative, instructive,
readable and satisfying. It is an excellent pedagogical tool. You
may wish to avoid SYSREF as your first line of inquiry. While I was
in High School and as an undergraduate, it was one of the most
effective non-chemical remedies for insomnia that I ever had. Reading
tables of logarithms is now my tedium of choice...

Kindest Regards,
--T

Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:

> Is there some manual to be used for writing .MAC programs.. I
> remember writing code back in the version 5 days. Now I have to
> write modifications to smtjfn.mac to do "spamming" protection. We
> are receiving spam from "yahoo.com.tw" host. Now I can define that
> site to be rejected, but I want to put the list of hosts to reject
> into a file, so I can add and remove sites as needed.
>
> any help is grateful.
>
> --jsol
> -------
>
>

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It's not easy to find.

ISBN 0932376126

Try Alibris

Good luck,

Ralph

===========

The pdf is supposed to be available via anonymous login to toad.xkl.com.
t20asm.pdf

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The problem is that it hasn't been published in quite some time.

The link Mark sent was to Amazon's entry for the book, which lists 4
sellers who have it as a used book. You'd have to contact the sellers
if you want to buy it independently of the Amazon.com aggregator.

john

On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:11, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:

> I need info about picking up a copy of the manual. Right now I can't
> use lynx... (it doesn't work well under my linux box).
>
> Can I send a check or money order to some place (the publisher,
> I guess) and order it for delivery.
>
> thanx
> --jsol
> -------
>

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:45:22 -0400 (EDT)
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> From: John Francini <[email protected]>
> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:22:01 -0400

>> On 24 Aug 2009, at 14:11, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:

>>> I need info about picking up a copy of the manual. Right now I can't
>>> use lynx... (it doesn't work well under my linux box).

>>> Can I send a check or money order to some place (the publisher,
>>> I guess) and order it for delivery.

> The problem is that it hasn't been published in quite some time.

> The link Mark sent was to Amazon's entry for the book, which lists 4
> sellers who have it as a used book. You'd have to contact the sellers
> if you want to buy it independently of the Amazon.com aggregator.

The links at Amazon all list the book for about $42. I sent jsol a link
from abebooks.com this morning for the one copy listed there at $67.

toad.xkl.com refuses FTP connections, so Ralph's pointer there doesn't
work.

Rich

24-Aug-2009 17:04:38-PDT,2617;000000000000
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From: Patrick Scheible <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected], [email protected],
TOPS-20 Distribution: ;
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Phil
Budne on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT))
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References: <[email protected]>
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I downloaded the PostScript files for Ralph Gorin's book when they
were available. I don't see them online now, but I haven't done an
exhaustive search. I'm not sure if Ralph wants them redistributed.

It's revised from the Digital Press edition. It includes changes for
the KL-10 model B -- extended addressing, and a few other things.
Alas, the cartoons at the beginning of each chapter had to go.

In addition to Ralph's book you'll also want the Processor Reference
Manual for the instruction set and the JSYS manual for the system
calls. They are available online at bitsavers:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/1982_ProcRefMan.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/JSYS_REFERENCE.MEM.txt

-- Patrick

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:47:25 -0400 (EDT)
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I think the best refresher would be looking at Ralph Gorin's
"Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming"

I saw PostScript files for it on-line (at XKL?) at some point; does
anyone know if they're still available?? PostScript is easily
converted to PDF (with GhostScript), which would be a comfortable way
to read it on-line.

24-Aug-2009 17:37:15-PDT,2183;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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To All Who May Be Interested:

Ralph has very kindly consented to allow us to make available the PDF of his
book via anonymous FTP on our Toad-1.

The system name is XKLeTen.PaulAllen.com and the IP address is
[216.220.195.10]. The FTP daemon does a minor sanity check on the e-mail
address entered at the Password: prompt, but we don't keep track of them.

This is an 8-bit file, of course, so use whatever command you need to ensure
that it remains so (Windows ftp client: "type tenex"; Unix ftp client:
"tenex").

Let me know directly (don't bother the Tops-20 list, please) if you have
problems with the transfer, and we'll figure it out together.

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

http://www.pdpplanet.org/
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ (coming soon)

24-Aug-2009 17:42:24-PDT,2168;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Patrick
Scheible on 24 Aug 2009 16:55:23 -0700)
Subject: Re: programming manual needed
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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> Date: 24 Aug 2009 16:55:23 -0700
> From: Patrick Scheible <[email protected]>

> In addition to Ralph's book you'll also want the Processor Reference
> Manual for the instruction set and the JSYS manual for the system
> calls. They are available online at bitsavers:
>
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/1982_ProcRefMan.pdf
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/JSYS_REFERENCE.MEM.txt

The JSYS reference manual is also available on the PDPplanet/LCM Toad-1 in the
DOC: directory. It can be looked at fairly simply with GNU emacs (invoked as
"gnuemacs" rather than "emacs", which gets you the real deal^W^WMIT TECO
EMACS).

Rich

25-Aug-2009 11:11:53-PDT,2099;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message from Rich
Alderson on Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:25:22 -0400 (EDT))
Subject: Re: Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_
References: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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My apologies to all, and thanks to those who let me know there was a
protections problem on the file. I have corrected that issue, and at
the same time made the file name more obvious. You are looking for
TOPS20_ASSEMBLER_PROGRAMMING.PDF.

It's also been pointed out to me that Unix FTP clients default to extended
passive mode these days. TOPS-20 FTP does not understand the EPSV protocol
command, and returns a 500 error code. Please turn off passive mode before
attempting to transfer the file.

Rich

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Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:44:32 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: cpu serial number
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:05:16 -0700 (PDT)
ReSent-From: TOPS-20 List Moderator <[email protected]>
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can you tell me how to read the cpu number for my klh20 virtual machine?

thanx,
--jsol
-------

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Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: cpu serial number
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, Jonathan A. Solomon wrote:
> can you tell me how to read the cpu number for my klh20 virtual machine?

The same way you do on any other KL-class machine: with APRID. This
instruction requires either exec mode or User I/O mode.

In user code, you use the CNFIG% JSYS.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

27-Oct-2009 15:59:20-PDT,1114;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:49:19 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: this seems broken....
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
ReSent-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:55:31 -0700 (PDT)
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I just want to get the cpu number for my machine...

here's what I wrote after checking doc:7-jsys.man for the cnfig jsys.

SEARCH MONSYM
SEARCH MACSYM
start: movei 1,0
movei 2,11
cnfig%
EXIT
END START
-------

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Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:49:19 -0700
From: Jonathan A. Solomon <[email protected]>
Subject: this seems broken....
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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I just want to get the cpu number for my machine...

here's what I wrote after checking doc:7-jsys.man for the cnfig jsys.

SEARCH MONSYM
SEARCH MACSYM
start: movei 1,0
movei 2,11
cnfig%
EXIT
END START
-------

27-Oct-2009 16:12:50-PDT,1448;000000000000
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Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: "Jonathan A. Solomon" <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: this seems broken....
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CNFIG% works (I personally verified it), but your program is broken.
Don't skim the documentation; read the documentation.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

3-Nov-2009 13:18:18-PST,2154;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:01:48 -0500 (EST)
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(I phrase the subject question that way to avoid the arguments over whether
microcoded versions are or are not "really" PDP-10 systems.)

I know that there were 23 PDP-6 systems built, from multiple presumably
independent sources, but Bell, McNamara & Mudge should be authoritative
enough for anyone.

I'd like to get (rough) numbers for how many KA10, KI10, KL10 and KS10
systems were built, for completeness' sake on our new web site. This
information is readily available for the 18- and 12-bit systems, and not
hard to get for 16- and 32-bit systems. So why isn't there a repository
with the numbers for the 36-bit family?

Thanks,
Rich

Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Server Engineer
Living Computer Museum
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:[email protected]
mailto:[email protected]

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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
> I'd like to get (rough) numbers for how many KA10, KI10, KL10 and KS10
> systems were built

Based upon serial numbers:

Known KA10 serial numbers are from 1 to 274.

Known KI10 serial numbers are from 514 to 769.

Known KL10 (-10 style) serial numbers are from 1025 to 1449, with a
reported outlier at 1992.

Known KL10 (-20 style) serial numbers are from 2101 to 3536.

Known KS10 serial numbers are from 4097 to 4664.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

3-Nov-2009 13:51:39-PST,3373;000000000000
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To: 'Mark Crispin' <[email protected]>
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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:41:43 -0800
Subject: RE: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?
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Hi, Mark,

Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 systems (i=
n accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of ~3000 which =
I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks). The biggest number is 14=
00+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in these latter days.

Thanks,
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf =
Of Mark Crispin
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 1:23 PM
To: Rich Alderson
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
> I'd like to get (rough) numbers for how many KA10, KI10, KL10 and KS10
> systems were built

Based upon serial numbers:

Known KA10 serial numbers are from 1 to 274.

Known KI10 serial numbers are from 514 to 769.

Known KL10 (-10 style) serial numbers are from 1025 to 1449, with a=20
reported outlier at 1992.

Known KL10 (-20 style) serial numbers are from 2101 to 3536.

Known KS10 serial numbers are from 4097 to 4664.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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To: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
cc: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?
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On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 systems
> (in accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of ~3000
> which I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks).

I see no reason not to believe that there were about 3000 36-bit systems
built by Digital.

Who is pooh-poohing that number? Some historical revisionist that wants
people to believe that the PDP-10 wasn't important?

> The biggest
> number is 1400+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in these latter
> days.

I see no reason not to believe that there were 400-odd KL10 based DEC-10s
and 1400-odd KL10-based DEC-20s (not to be confused with the number of
TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 systems).

I've been to service bureaus that had multiple buildings full of KLs.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

3-Nov-2009 17:41:36-PST,2857;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
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In-reply-to: <[email protected]> (message
from Mark Crispin on Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:53 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?
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> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>

> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959 systems
>> (in accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of ~3000
>> which I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks).

> I see no reason not to believe that there were about 3000 36-bit systems
> built by Digital.

> Who is pooh-poohing that number? Some historical revisionist that wants
> people to believe that the PDP-10 wasn't important?

No, it was a respected member of the 36-bit community.

>> The biggest number is 1400+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in
>> these latter days.

> I see no reason not to believe that there were 400-odd KL10 based DEC-10s
> and 1400-odd KL10-based DEC-20s (not to be confused with the number of
> TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 systems).

> I've been to service bureaus that had multiple buildings full of KLs.

I suppose that I felt the number was large based on the lack of fossils only
10 years after the end, but that's probably the preservationist in me.

Thanks,
Rich

5-Nov-2009 17:26:18-PST,4275;000000000000
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Cc: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>,
"'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
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From: Carl Baltrunas <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: How many systems with a PDP-10 architecture were built by DEC?
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:55:17 -0800
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I'll have to agree with Mark here.

We had 54 PDP-10 systems running Tymcom-X or Tymcom-XX, and although
three of those were Foonley F3s the rest were KI, KL and KSs. At the
same time, there were at least eleven (11) Office machines running
August/Augment, at least two of which I knew to be KA-10s with BBN
pagers, and many Foonley F4s. I would think however many Office
systems were in the cupertino data center on Bubb road were all KAs
and the F4s were at the Valley Green Drive labs, and the Fremont
Liberty site after we moved out of Valley Green in 1984. Bill Soley
might remember how many KAs were running Augment, if you really want
to know.

As for counts of how many Foonleys, or 26KLs as McDonnell Douglas
called them, I don't know if anyone is around who knows how many there
were. Possibly one of the network people who developed the LSI-11
network interface nodes for the F3 and F4s might remember, but I
somehow doubt it.

I know we had 3 F3s as system numbers 930, 934 and 62, but I have no
idea what the serial numbers were.

-Carl

On Nov 3, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Do we know if there were gaps in the list? That adds up to 2959
>> systems
>> (in accord with a figure I remember from a DECUS presentation of
>> ~3000
>> which I have heard pooh-poohed by knowledgeable folks).
>
> I see no reason not to believe that there were about 3000 36-bit
> systems built by Digital.
>
> Who is pooh-poohing that number? Some historical revisionist that
> wants people to believe that the PDP-10 wasn't important?
>
>> The biggest
>> number is 1400+ KL10 based DEC-20s, which seems excessive in these
>> latter
>> days.
>
> I see no reason not to believe that there were 400-odd KL10 based
> DEC-10s and 1400-odd KL10-based DEC-20s (not to be confused with the
> number of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 systems).
>
> I've been to service bureaus that had multiple buildings full of KLs.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>

6-Nov-2009 10:16:52-PST,2646;000000000000
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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:26:04 -0800 (PST)
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On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Carl Baltrunas wrote:

[...]
> three of those were Foonley F3s the rest were KI, KL and KSs. At the
[...]

As someone who worked on the Super Foonly project at SAIL, I can state
authoritatively that the correct spelling is "Foonly", not "Foonley". :-)

The word originated when Phil Pettit was debugging an early version of
FAIL. He typed in "foo"; then FAIL responded with "nly" and JRSTed 4.

Fred Wright

29-Nov-2009 00:34:54-PST,3920;000000000000
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To: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: KLH10 front-end reload??
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Tommy Timesharing hung earlier today; it had been up over a 175 days.
I got an error around 1:27PM-EST that the front end had hung and was
rebooted. By the time I noticed at 4:08, the system was completely
wedged.

I couldn't get in on the CTY, but KLH10 appeared to be working.
However, in the process of poking around, I completely destroyed some
information, so I am unable to determine exactly what was going on.
Sigh...

As I had been up since early June (and the middle of March before that
because of a power failure), this does not appear to be of immediate
concern. The system had not had a single issue during all this time
(not even a BUGINF)

However ... Ideas, anyone? Should I think about getting nervous? I
mean, there IS no front-end on KLH10, right?
________________________________________________________________________

************************************************************************
TOPS-20 BUGHLT-BUGCHK
Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:08 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:54:26
Detected on system # 3699.
Record sequence number: 17527.
************************************************************************

Error information:
Date/Time of error: Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:05
Errors since reload: 1.
Fork # & Job #: 777777,777777
User's logged in dir: unknown
Program name:
Error: BUGINF
Address of error: 1137031
Name: DTEKPA
Description: DTE keep alive fail
CONI APR: 007740,,000003 = No error bits detected
CONI PAG: 000000,,660151
DATAI PAG: 700101,,002750
Contents of ACs:
0: 000000,,575700
1: 777777,,000000
2: 000000,,000000
3: 000000,,277242
4: 000100,,206260
5: 000000,,247445
6: 000000,,000000
7: 000000,,000000
10: 777775,,000002
11: 000000,,000000
12: 000000,,614101
13: 777772,,000012
14: 777777,,777650
15: 777305,,353304
16: 620012,,000000
17: 777115,,246540
PI status: 000000,,000175
Additional data items: 1
000000,,000000

ERA: 000000,,000000 = word #0 Memory read
Base phyiscal memory
address at failure: 0

************************************************************************
FRONT END RELOADED
Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:28:04 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:55:21
Detected on system # 3699.
Record sequence number: 17528.
************************************************************************
CPU # :,,Front end #: 0,0
Status at reload: No error bits detected
Retries: 3
Filename for DUMP: <SYSTEM>0DMP11.BIN.1,28-Nov-2009 13:27:05

29-Nov-2009 11:25:03-PST,5526;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:20:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
To: Thomas DeBellis <[email protected]>
cc: Tops-20 Wizards <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: KLH10 front-end reload??
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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KLH10 implements enough for the front end DTE protocol for TOPS-20 to
think that it is talking to a front end, albeit one with just a CTY (no
KLINIK, DL11 lines, or DECnet).

There is a keepalive timer in both TOPS-20 (to reboot the front end when
the front end crashes) and in RSX-11F (to reboot TOPS-20 when it crashes).

The front end also keeps time well enough to set TOPS-20's clock following
a crash-reboot; this is superceded in KLH10 as the timebase instructions
get the time from the host OS. In addition, Panda monitors try to run a
program called TIMCHK which will synchronize with NTP servers.

So, what happened was that the DTE protocol stopped for some reason.
TOPS-20 tried to reboot the front end in an attempt to get it going, but
of course that was futile.

Here's something that may help:

On some Linux systems the esoteric real-time interrupt mechanisms in KLH10
don't work well. So, it may be necessary to set KLH10_ITIME_SYNC instead
of the default KLH10_ITIME_INTRP. Note that doing so will make KLH10 burn
much more CPU on the host system.

Usually, though, if you need to do this, it becomes pretty obvious at
once, with nasty DTE errors from KLH10 shortly after booting (and any time
you type on the CTY).

One reason why I haven't upgraded Lingling's host CPU is that most of the
newer machines that I've run KLH10 on have required doing this. It's
quite annoying.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
> Tommy Timesharing hung earlier today; it had been up over a 175 days.
> I got an error around 1:27PM-EST that the front end had hung and was
> rebooted. By the time I noticed at 4:08, the system was completely
> wedged.
>
> I couldn't get in on the CTY, but KLH10 appeared to be working.
> However, in the process of poking around, I completely destroyed some
> information, so I am unable to determine exactly what was going on.
> Sigh...
>
> As I had been up since early June (and the middle of March before that
> because of a power failure), this does not appear to be of immediate
> concern. The system had not had a single issue during all this time
> (not even a BUGINF)
>
> However ... Ideas, anyone? Should I think about getting nervous? I
> mean, there IS no front-end on KLH10, right?
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ************************************************************************
> TOPS-20 BUGHLT-BUGCHK
> Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:08 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:54:26
> Detected on system # 3699.
> Record sequence number: 17527.
> ************************************************************************
>
> Error information:
> Date/Time of error: Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:27:05
> Errors since reload: 1.
> Fork # & Job #: 777777,777777
> User's logged in dir: unknown
> Program name:
> Error: BUGINF
> Address of error: 1137031
> Name: DTEKPA
> Description: DTE keep alive fail
> CONI APR: 007740,,000003 = No error bits detected
> CONI PAG: 000000,,660151
> DATAI PAG: 700101,,002750
> Contents of ACs:
> 0: 000000,,575700
> 1: 777777,,000000
> 2: 000000,,000000
> 3: 000000,,277242
> 4: 000100,,206260
> 5: 000000,,247445
> 6: 000000,,000000
> 7: 000000,,000000
> 10: 777775,,000002
> 11: 000000,,000000
> 12: 000000,,614101
> 13: 777772,,000012
> 14: 777777,,777650
> 15: 777305,,353304
> 16: 620012,,000000
> 17: 777115,,246540
> PI status: 000000,,000175
> Additional data items: 1
> 000000,,000000
>
> ERA: 000000,,000000 = word #0 Memory read
> Base phyiscal memory
> address at failure: 0
>
> ************************************************************************
> FRONT END RELOADED
> Logged on Sat 28 Nov 2009 13:28:04 Monitor uptime was 175 days 19:55:21
> Detected on system # 3699.
> Record sequence number: 17528.
> ************************************************************************
> CPU # :,,Front end #: 0,0
> Status at reload: No error bits detected
> Retries: 3
> Filename for DUMP: <SYSTEM>0DMP11.BIN.1,28-Nov-2009 13:27:05
>
>

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

29-Nov-2009 12:47:03-PST,1910;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:39:09 -0500
From: bob smith <[email protected]>
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I have not looked at it in depth yet, just starting. I am curious
as to whether any of TOPS-20/PDP10 folks have looked at it and
what your opinion is.

The hype aside, a lean OS sure strikes a cord with me, I have not
looked at what services are embedded and what they really do,
recognizing it is intended for Web use and access, I am going to
be interested in the underlying capabilities.

thanks
bob

--
it is what it is.

29-Nov-2009 12:59:46-PST,1945;000000000000
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From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, bob smith wrote:
> I have not looked at it in depth yet, just starting. I am curious
> as to whether any of TOPS-20/PDP10 folks have looked at it and
> what your opinion is.

I am certain that, whatever features Chrome has in it, it will be
optimized towards presenting as much advertising as possible to my
unwilling eyeballs.

Google is not interested in making cool new products. Google is only
interested in maximizing its delivery of advertising. That is its entire
business model. Any and all products it produces are designed to further
that model.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

29-Nov-2009 13:05:10-PST,2629;000000000000
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To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, bob smith wrote:
>> I have not looked at it in depth yet, just starting. I am curious
>> as to whether any of TOPS-20/PDP10 folks have looked at it and
>> what your opinion is.
>
> I am certain that, whatever features Chrome has in it, it will be
> optimized towards presenting as much advertising as possible to my
> unwilling eyeballs.
>
> Google is not interested in making cool new products. Google is only
> interested in maximizing its delivery of advertising. That is its
> entire business model. Any and all products it produces are designed
> to further that model.
>
> -- Mark --
>
> http://panda.com/tops-20
> TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors
>
Mark,
as usual you cut right to the point - I agree of course - but looking
beyond that
at the chromium OS release, and the descriptions... hmmm... digging into
the
code a little.
thanks!
bob

--
it is what it is.

29-Nov-2009 13:47:43-PST,1918;000000000000
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From: Andy Valencia <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Chrome - any TOPS-20 folks looked at it?
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--------
[bob smith <[email protected]> writes:]

> as usual you cut right to the point - I agree of course - but looking
> beyond that
> at the chromium OS release, and the descriptions... hmmm... digging into
> the code a little.

I understood it to be a browser--their Chrome one--running on a Linux
kernel. They apparently plan to implement pretty strict control over
configuration changes to the system. But, at a design level, you're
looking at a user mode app running on a Linux kernel. The goal of
having all your actual work being done via a web session may be innovative,
but the system used to implement these stations does not strike me as
being very interesting.

Andy Valencia

29-Nov-2009 14:36:39-PST,2926;000000000000
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:14:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Andy Valencia wrote:
> I understood it to be a browser--their Chrome one--running on a Linux
> kernel. They apparently plan to implement pretty strict control over
> configuration changes to the system.

Sounds a lot like the original iPhone with the "everything can/should be a
webapp" mentality. Even now iPhone is still a walled garden.

The problem that I have with this, and many other "cloud" notions, is that
it represents a reversion to the situation, before the PC revolution, when
the IT department (a.k.a. "computer center") controlled everything. Not
only that, but the IT department is now another company which may not
necessarily have your best interests in mind.

Unlike client/server, the cloud user gives up all control. Everything,
including the user experience, is dictated by the cloud provider. This is
a critical point, because client/server is designed to strip the provider
of control over the user experience whereas cloud does quite the opposite.

This has been tried before. Remember diskless workstations in the 1980s?

What use is being made of your data by the cloud provider? FB, GMail,
Hotmail, etc. make no secret about prowling through your data to target
advertising to you. What other use might they make?

What about access by others? Competitors? Hackers? Espionage? Who can
subpoena your data in the cloud? Is it a wider set that can subpoena your
data kept on your own faciltiies?

The lure of the cloud is obvious - it's "free" - but just how much do you
pay for this "free" service?

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/tops-20
TOPS-20: a great improvement over its successors

20-Dec-2009 00:18:53-PST,1349;000000000000
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From: Rich Alderson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Happy DEC-20 Day!
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Long live our favourite operating system and the hardware that supports it!

Rich