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Is the El Paso Downtown I-10 deck park a visionary plan or a costly gamble? Hear from both sides in our latest podcast [1]

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Date: 2025-06-11

Diego Mendoza-Moyers: As big projects often are, the I-10 deck park in Downtown El Paso is a polarizing topic.

The idea is to build a park that would cover up the trenched part of the freeway in Downtown and span five city blocks, from Sante Fe Street east to Kansas Street. I-10 would become a tunnel, and the deck on top would become the city’s new central park.

The estimated cost of construction at this point is $207 million, and whether the city can fund that large of a project without lifting property taxes to pay for it is an open question, especially if that cost proves to be an underestimate.

Whether or not you think building the deck park is a good idea, money is flowing to the project and it’s moving forward, at least for now. Private philanthropists have committed to contributing tens of millions toward construction, while state lawmakers OK’d spending $10 million on design. The city and county governments have suggested they can chip in, too.

Still, a funding gap of tens of millions of dollars remains, and there are still a lot of questions. Do we need this park? And will it really attract more housing, residents and businesses to the center of the city?

El Paso’s population has sprawled out to the west, east and north, which has its own costs. As populations in outlying areas such as Socorro and Horizon increase, El Paso’s biggest school district is grappling with declining enrollment at historic schools, and has plans to shutter numerous campuses in the core of the city.

Meanwhile, El Paso Water customers subsidize sprawl by shouldering most of the utility’s cost of building out water and sewer lines to new developments at the periphery of the city. That translates to higher water bills for everyone.

These are just some examples of the cost of sprawl.

Some say building the deck park in Downtown is a real solution to limit sprawl and revitalize the urban core of El Paso. Maybe that’s an overly lofty expectation, though. It depends on who you ask.

To talk through the deck park, I’m excited to welcome two guests to the podcast who are keyed in on this issue.

First, we’ll be joined by Tracy Yellen, the CEO of the Paso del Norte Foundation, which has been the main advocate for the deck park, and has helped to fund feasibility studies, including the study that produced the $207 million cost estimate last summer.

In the second half of this episode, El Paso City Council Representative Chris Canales will join us. He was elected in 2022, and he represents Downtown El Paso. He’ll talk through his skepticism of the deck park, and explain why now may not be the right time to prioritize this project.

And just a quick note: Yellen spoke with me before the City Council on Tuesday voted to apply for a $25 million federal grant to help fund the deck park. I also spoke with Canales before the Texas Legislature recently approved spending $10 million in state funds to pay for construction blueprints of the deck.

But before we start: This El Paso Matters Podcast episode is sponsored by Tawney, Acosta and Chaparro: Truck Crash and Injury Attorneys. Their team of local, seasoned trial attorneys are ready to help if you’ve been injured in a crash.

Tracy, thanks for joining me.

Tracy: Thanks for the invitation.

Diego: So, why is the deck park an important project for El Paso to pursue? And I say El Paso, but really, I mean local governments, the county, the city, local foundations and so forth.

Tracy: The Paso del Norte Health Foundation and Paso del Norte Community Foundation, we’ve been involved in built environment projects over many years.

Our introduction to the project happened when we were working on a master plan to build the Paso del Norte Trail, a 68-mile trail across El Paso County, and really to build spaces that make it easy for people to live active lives, and the spaces that we really enjoy and appreciate when we go to other communities.

So, you look at an Austin or a Dallas or a Phoenix, and these hike-bike outdoor recreational spaces have been such big contributors to quality of life and health for the residents of the community. So, we were looking, trying to figure out how do you go from Sunset Heights through Downtown to pick up to the Playa Drain Trail on the other side of the Medical Center of the Americas. And were introduced to this idea by TxDOT, actually, that they could put a deck over the freeway as they were working on their freeway expansion, and it was really intriguing to us. It was a part of being able to connect neighborhoods, physically connect and better connect a Sunset Heights to Downtown, the Rio Grande neighborhood to Downtown. But also to reclaim space that had been taken from the city with I-10 before we were born. And El Paso is such a beautiful city and our old neighborhoods, older neighborhoods on that grid system from the 1900s were really devastated by the freeway that came through El Paso.

So, as TxDOT was looking at creating that additional lane downtown to kind of even out the lanes on either side and taking those sloping retaining walls and straightening them out to create that lane, you have this opportunity to put a cap over the freeway, and then create

some green space on top of it, which would essentially reconnect Downtown and now, which is uptown, which I’m still not quite comfortable with. But, the Rio Grande neighborhoods, the El Paso High neighborhoods. But, then, that could be that vision for a central park for El Paso and the needed green space overall for our community.

Diego: And, so, just to kind of get on the cost, right, which is sort of the big issue a lot of people bring up, I’m just curious, the cost estimate that the Deck Plaza Foundation has produced suggests the cost of construction would be $207 million. And, so, we hear this other figure raised, and Representative Canales mentioned it as well, that suggests that the real cost will be closer to $412 million. And, so, I just wonder, what’s the discrepancy between those two estimates? And just curious for your perspective on what the cost will actually be for construction.

Tracy: Sure. So, there’s no discrepancy. It’s just a combination of different amenities that could potentially be part of a greater footprint.

Your listeners can’t see these maps, but map one is what I-10 could look like if it’s expanded in the Downtown corridor with no deck structure and no green infrastructure.

Image two is this deck park, part of which six-and-a-half acres is over the trench and includes an amphitheater, a green grassy lawn, light commercial retail, market kind of mercado space, and then a field house, which would be a multi-purpose space with indoor and then outdoor recreation, and very flexible kind of space.

On the side of the park is this additional space. So, that 6.5 acres, with all the amenities I described, is that $207 million. This additional space, which is on TxDOT right-of-way, is 1.7 additional acres. It’s on hard ground, so it’s not over the trench, on hard ground, could attract additional investment and development that could cost another $200 million, which wouldn’t be an expense of the deck. But would be a benefit of having this green space to attract mixed-income, mixed-use housing and other commercial and retail space.

We don’t fully have permission from TxDOT to do that yet, or a model to do it, so it is something that would result from a deck potentially. But it’s not a cost of the park project itself. So, I don’t know if that makes sense to you or your listeners.

Diego: So, we’re talking private investment adjacent to the park?

Tracy: Yeah, exactly. That’s an even more succinct way of saying it. It’s a benefit from creating the park versus a cost of creating the park.

Diego: So, simply put, the deck park that has been presented so far, you think the $207 million cost estimate is a fairly reasonable and sharp estimate?

Tracy: Yeah, that came from a feasibility study that was conducted with funding from the U.S. Department of Transportation, a grant to the city of El Paso, RAISE grant for $900,000. We contributed matching funds – about $400,000 – and hired an engineering firm called Stantec. They have done the design of the current design up to 30% development. And, so, at the 30% level, for the infrastructure required and the amenities on top, is about $207 million. That’s 2027 dollars. That’s before a world of tariffs, so, I think now we have an opportunity to do the construction document development, which is 100% design, and cost estimates given some new realities.

We’re hoping there’s enough cushion that’s built in. There’s about a 25% markup in those dollars, in addition to inflation, just a cushion at the 30% design level. So, we’re feeling good about that. But we always have to wait and see. And when you go out to bid, those are your final estimates. But we’re feeling pretty good about those numbers.

Diego: Yeah. And why is Klyde Warren Park (in Dallas) one of the main models for this deck park? Just curious if you can touch on why is that sort of held up as what we’re trying to accomplish here in some ways?

Tracy: Yeah, so, Klyde Warren Park is an example of a deck park. And I think the reason we’ve used it and others have used it is, number one, that it’s one of the oldest deck parks that have been completed and so they have data on the impact of that park to that local economy – so, the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta has done a study of the economic impact of that park, the actual economic impact versus projected impact.

But there are many other examples, those that have been already completed and those that are in development. And, so, again, the listener can’t see this, but there’s a study that was recently completed and presented to the city of Austin by HRNA that points to other projects.

So, the Boston Public Green. If everyone remembers, the big dig in Boston, which created a massive underground highway, created a whole area of green space that the city of Boston reclaimed. And all of the impact and redevelopment that happened in downtown Boston. Phoenix, many of us have driven under a deck park in Phoenix, which also has attracted housing and livability. And, so, Dallas has been one that people have seen or that we’ve pointed to.

My first disclaimer is “We don’t want to be any other city than we already are.” So, our goal is not to be Dallas but Klyde Warren is a very tangible example, it’s similar in size. Dallas is now building three more deck parks. Austin is looking at – they’ve just approved funding for the start of three in Austin out of eight that they were planning. And (the University of Texas at Austin) is building two more. The city of Houston is working on building four.

So, I think Klyde Warren, back to your question, it’s completed and has a track record. And so that’s why it’s easy to point to. But there are many others. And we have a website, downtowndeckplaza.org, where people, if you click on the impact button, you can see other projects that people could take a look at.

Diego: Yeah, as a graduate of Arizona State University, I spent some time at Margaret Hance Park in Phoenix. I’m familiar with it. And I think maybe one of the benefits of Klyde Warren Park that’s touted is that it spurred additional housing in downtown Dallas. Is that fair to say?

Tracy: Yeah. So, what we’ve learned about that project is, number one, it is the number one tourist attraction in Dallas. Which is insane – over a million people a year are going to that park. Number two, before the park was built, they had about 500 people living in the greater downtown area. They have over 20,000 people that live in that area now. And, so, this idea of pent-up demand for that urban lifestyle, also a contribution to infill development.

I think that when you look in El Paso at the uptown-Downtown plan, that the city completed not long ago, they have identified a pent-up demand of about 10,000 units. So, putting a green space in the middle of that would enhance the livability and the attraction of that kind of space for our community. And you think of young professionals, students, graduate students, people who’ve left the urban core who are interested in coming back, young people who maybe have left the city who’d like to come back, older people who are ready to downsize. There’s a big market for this kind of space in this setting.

Diego: Maybe it would be one way to counter the urban sprawl we see?

Tracy: Absolutely. I’ve lived in El Paso over 30 years now, and I worked many years ago for the El Paso YWCA, and we had inherited a gift of land, and we hired new urbanist developers, Andres Duaney and Stefanos Polyzoides, and they came to this community, and they were building these livable communities in other cities to kind of promote infill development and also density and livability.

And there was a moment in El Paso where that was a really attractive and important kind of a movement. This is a kind of return to that in some ways. And we’ve had some developers that have developed in the inner core, and we’ve had developers that have developed other places that are building kind of more livable communities. You see that work-life balance kind of amenities, but we don’t find them as much in the downtown core. And, so, this would be a contributor to that.

Diego: Yeah. And so as I mentioned, we got the cost estimate last summer. And, so, we’ve seen recently kind of some dollar figures committed, or kind of the first mention of real, significant commitments, I guess. And, so, on the one hand, I’m curious for your thoughts on how significant you think the $10 million allocation from the Texas Legislature is for this project? And then I want to touch on private philanthropy after, but I’m curious your thoughts on the Legislature’s commitment of $10 million?

Tracy: Yeah, this is such great news. And it comes at such an important time in this project because it’ll give us the chance to work on those construction documents, the 100% design for the deck structure. And then we’re working on assembling another $10 million so that we can create the construction documents for the design on top, so you have a complete project, a complete package, and confirming cost. Which is something that’s really important to us and to everybody in this community.

So, the timing of it is really important because TxDOT has a $500 million allocation to renovate I-10 from Spur 66 to about a half-mile on the other side of Downtown, on the east side of Downtown. And they have a contractor in place to begin the design of I-10. So, if we can do this work at the same time, there are some economies of scale that get created. And they can look at the retaining walls, the loads that we need to make sure that those retaining walls need to have. TxDOT needs assurance that we can build this before they would go to the cost or the expense of building it.

And so that’s why we call this a once-in-a-generation opportunity. That’s why the timing of it is so important. If it aligns with TxDOT’s work, then we get to benefit from some of the work that they’re doing on the retaining walls, and then we just have an incremental cost or share to help support, again, the weight of a deck park.

Diego: Yeah, and the expectation – I mean, we’ve seen in Klyde Warren and other deck parks – is that private philanthropy played a big role in terms of funding the construction. And, so, I believe we’ve kind of heard of a $25 million figure, right, as far as philanthropic contributions from private donors. And so any thoughts on that? How significant or how important do you think that would be to making the deck park a reality?

Tracy: Yeah, I think in our community, it’s all hands on deck. And, you know, we have a lot of challenges to be able to accomplish big things. So it takes all of us, the public-private partnership, to accomplish big investments. And, so, philanthropy, we are committed to at least $35 million to contribute to the project, and we will hope to begin working on those efforts soon. That’s in-line with – mas o menos – other communities that have greater and deeper pockets in philanthropy. So, it’s a component of success. And so, again, we’re going to need the all hands on deck contributions from all sources, but philanthropy, of course, would be an important one.

Diego: Yeah, and $35 million, that’s the first time I’ve heard that. Do you think that that’s an adequate level of funding from the private sector?

Tracy: Yeah, I think it’s appropriate. You know, if we can do more, we will. But we need to set a target that we believe we can achieve. And the private sector is very committed to our community and creating the quality of life that we deserve. I’ve met with a lot of young families over the course of this project so far, and they see themselves here. Some of them travel to other cities for, like, sports tournaments for their kids, if they go to Albuquerque or Tucson, and they want these amenities here. They want spaces where you could have volleyball tournaments and outdoor concerts and music under the stars and the place for food trucks and the family photos. So, I think people believe that investments in quality of life are important investments for the greater region.

Diego: Yeah. And we saw a presentation that was given by city staff to City Council a few weeks back that suggested that the city could contribute as much as $35 million to the project. Curious if you had any takeaways from that presentation and that apparent idea of ‘Hey, here’s the level the city could contribute.’

Tracy: Yeah, we really appreciate their leadership on the project. It doesn’t happen without them and that financial commitment would be really important to this puzzle that we’re putting together to try to secure resources from all sources. We’re also obviously looking for funding outside of El Paso. So, the city has an agenda item on their council agenda next week for an application to TxDOT for $25 million. They will work on other proposals for federal funds down the road. They have that grant application for community project funding as well. So, again, the little pieces to the puzzle.

Someone said to me not long ago, how do you eat an elephant? It’s a bite at a time. And, so, if we can make some incremental progress on the project within TxDOT’s timeline, then this becomes very achievable. And it doesn’t have to happen overnight and it can’t. And we can also phase it if we need to down the road. We just need certain pieces in place now. In Austin, they called that future-proofing, which means “Let’s make sure we have the opportunity to do this later.”

So, that’s step one, is sort of, “get the design completed.” Let’s look at the retaining walls. Let’s look at the cap. And then if there are other phasing elements that we need to consider, the freeway project won’t be completed until 2030, 2031, whatever that timeline is. We have time to keep working on that elephant.

Diego: And I want to ask a little bit more about the TxDOT project in a second. But, I wonder, do you think it’s likely or plausible we’ll see El Paso County contribute some funds as well?

Tracy: The county has been such a champion of the project so far. And, so, we also are very grateful for their leadership. I know they’re looking at how they might be able to participate. They’ve already committed $1 million towards that one application, so, is that something we can apply to one of those bites of the elephant? And, then, what else might they be in

a position to do? You know, that’s something we hope to have conversations with them about as well.

Diego: Yeah. And, so, just to go a little bit more into the TxDOT project to widen and renovate I-10. And the Downtown widening will be the next phase of that, what we’ve seen going on in the northwest part of town in the last couple of years. Can you just go a little bit more in depth about sort of how TxDOT’s timeline on this project affects the deck park and really creates a sense of urgency?

I think the project isn’t expected to be completed, like you said, for maybe five or six or seven years, but they’re expecting, right, to go begin soliciting bids next year. And really there’s an urgency to show that there’s a plan in place, right, to sort of advance this deck park. And so can you just go a little bit more into sort of the near -term deadlines, I guess, that are created by TxDOT’s project?

Tracy: We understand from TxDOT – and I do not speak for TxDOT, so any official comments from TxDOT on their timeline or their project really need to come from them. But, from our understanding, they plan to release their environmental impact study this summer that will reveal to all of us what the alternative looks like. We’ll be able to then know how a deck park could fit into that alternative. And, then, that’s where that design money kicks in, where then we begin to develop the construction documents to fit within their work. And, so, if they let the construction for I-10 in their fiscal year ’28, which would be September (2027) or thereafter, we would need to have some assurance that we’d at least future-proof, build the retaining walls. And if we are more successful and ready for the deck structure, then you get even greater economies where if you have a contractor that’s coming in – and also El Paso, we hear very tired of orange barrels. It’s been very inconvenient. The reconstruction of Downtown will be an inconvenience like it’s been in other places. So, if we only have one inconvenience and can time all of that, that would be ideal. So, there are cost savings, there are convenience benefits of timing it together if we can.

Diego: Yeah, and I’m curious, could you just chat about sort of the impact on economic development in El Paso that you think the deck park could create, right? I mean, is it that we’ll have – this deck park will raise the values of properties adjacent to it, and so the city gets more property tax revenue? Or is it that there’s sort of more demand for housing Downtown? And, so, I just wonder, just in general, sort of what economic development impacts you would expect to result from the construction of the deck park?

Tracy: Yeah, we’ve just engaged a firm, HRNA, the same firm that did the impact study in Austin to do that for this project. And so we hope to have the results in August or so. I think it’s all the things that you’ve mentioned. There could be a property value benefit. There could be an enticement for development. If you look at all great parks around the country, they attract development. Central Park, now Klyde Warren Park, the High Line in New York City. We’re not these big, giant cities, but that’s been the consequence. Or even Hance Park, as you said, in Phoenix, has had this great attraction, number one.

And then number two, because of the uptown-Downtown plan, they’ve already affirmed this demand for housing. So, we think that accelerates it. But we also think that it’s going to take some intentionality and all of us working together to make sure that those investments can come to fruition. And what kinds of incentives do people need if that’s what’s important? Our rents are lower than other economies. We do not want to price people out

of our own market in our community. And, so, we need to be able to provide affordable options for people to live in this area.

Diego: There’s been a lot of commitment so far, right? Like I mentioned from the city, and maybe we’ll see some money from the county and from philanthropy. And then you mentioned, I think, there’s a $25 million state grant, right, that maybe could be awarded. And maybe there’s some potential for federal funding, right? I think the current administration has maybe been a little bit – the funding situation is different, right, compared to the Biden administration.

But even with the commitments we’ve heard, I think there’s probably still a shortfall as far as construction of maybe $90 million or $100 million or somewhere in there in the tens of millions, right? If we say the construction is roughly like, $190 million, right? In addition to the $20 million design, right? And these are all rough numbers. But generally, probably the deficit as it stands today is probably in the tens of millions. And maybe you disagree with that. But, I’m just curious your thoughts on that, and sort of maybe the most viable path to filling in the remaining funding gap, whatever it is, to construct the deck?

Tracy: I think we need to keep pursuing those state and federal funds. I think that’s the key to that puzzle I described earlier. And we have five or six years to keep pursuing those opportunities. And I think that’s the important difference in getting to the ultimate number. And, then, if we have to phase and it takes longer, then we’ll phase and take longer. If you look at Klyde Warren, they built their first five-and-a-half acres in the early 2010s, they’re now building expansion. If you look at the Southern Gateway project, they started with $100 million. They’re doing the first half of the project – they’re doing the deck structure and the park on top, and they’re in the fundraising mode for Phase 2, which would be the deck structure and the park on top. It’s an elephant, one bite at a time, and we’ll work on getting it completed.

I think what we’ve heard from the city, too, is if we have the deck structure, we want to make sure that that space can be activated even as we work on money for amenities. So, it will be a green space when it’s completed, and then we get to add all the pieces on top.

Diego: So, do you think it’s plausible that we see the physical cap constructed and maybe, like you’re saying, some of the amenities sort of added over time, right? But, really, the initial part could be, “Hey, let’s just build this cap over the highway and then kind of develop the park as we go along?”

Tracy: Yeah, that wouldn’t be our ideal scenario, but we can make adjustments. But we want to, out of the gate, make sure it’s usable space. And, then, if we need to add amenities later, we’ll keep doing that.

Diego: Yeah, and one of the last questions here. I mean, there’s a big, I think, perception as you know, around the city that, “Hey, do we really need this? Or can we direct these funds elsewhere, on housing or public transit or whatever?” Then we also hear the streets aren’t – we don’t devote enough funding to the streets, right? We’ve heard the city manager say that. And, then, you hear about, “Hey we need better emergency response times,” right? Basically, complaints about the quality of day-to-day services the city provides right? And I know that’s not your organization. But, I just wonder, from your perspective, how you think the city should balance providing really high-quality, day-to-day services – the basic stuff that’s not flashy or fancy – but also pursue these big city-defining projects that we look back on in 10 or 20 years, and it’s sort of this kind of defining thing, right?

How do you think the city should strike this balance? And I know, again, you’re not running the city. But, it seems like this balance that people are seeking. And I just wonder sort of how you think about, “Hey, let’s make sure we have resources devoted to day-to-day services, but also able to pursue something big like the deck park?”

Tracy: Yeah, I think – I really want to give the city credit, because I think we’re capable as a community of doing more than one thing at the same time. Like, we can do both and they can do both and they really want to do both.

And, so, I understand that the resources that they would look to be committing to this project aren’t (general revenue), aren’t dollars that would otherwise be available for streets and services. And, so, they will use those dollars available for that work, and they want to prove to the community how committed they are to that and that everyone wants that, while at the same time working on a next big vision. And not just this, they have other things that they’d like to work on, too, and parks throughout the city. Like, we want to make investments in multiple places, and we can do more than one thing at the same time.

Diego: You think it’s plausible to fulfill this project or this vision without having to maybe seek a big general obligation bond or have an election around that?

Tracy: Yeah, I don’t have any comments on that. You know, that’s not part of our thinking around the project. And that’s a community conversation. So, I think it’s premature to have that conversation. I wouldn’t want to

say – it’s like asking someone, “Are you going to run for office? Are you going to run for president?” No one says yes, right? So, this is not like a coy denial. But that wouldn’t be our vision. Is that something that the city wants to do? You know, I don’t know.

Diego: And then, just last thing here. Fast forward 10 years or 15 years, what would you envision the deck park bringing to day-to-day life in Downtown El Paso?

Tracy: It’s so exciting. Commissioner (Carlos) Leon, a county commissioner who’s retired, he said once in a meeting that we’ll regret not having done it. On the one hand, if it doesn’t happen, you’ll have a larger hole between Downtown and the other parts of El Paso and that kind of lost opportunity. If we can achieve this vision, I see a return of Music Under the Stars, families with picnic baskets coming to listen to music on a Sunday night. I see those quinceañera photos and prom photos that we see at San Jacinto in this other area. I see Neon Desert, concerts for young people and festivals. We see spaces that can be used for other activities, where you don’t have to shut down all the streets in Downtown to make it happen. I see, like, kids doing homework, food trucks, just all the really great things.

And then we see that housing development where you, right now, if you want to live in sort of the Downtown proper, there aren’t many choices. And, so, I think that’s really neat. I think when you look at El Paso Community College and UTEP, to have that 25,000-person enrollment at UTEP or above will require more students coming to El Paso to live. Where do they see themselves in that kind of vibrant space? It’s really exciting to think of what it will be when it’s there. And then, someday, we can never imagine our city without it. And that will be really exciting, too.

Diego: We’ll leave it there, Tracy. Thanks so much for joining me for this conversation.

Chris, thanks for joining me.

Chris: Yeah, thank you.

Diego: Can you lay out your reasoning about why you’ve said now may not be the right time to construct a deck plaza in Downtown El Paso?

Chris: Yeah, I’ll start off by saying I like the concept of the project broadly, and I said that in the op-ed that I wrote. It’s an opportunity to have a green-space amenity Downtown that’s large and new. There’s not a lot of places where that could happen. And so that’s one possible benefit. And then, obviously, I-10 didn’t always run down the middle of Downtown. And when the highway was built, it did fracture Downtown from the communities to the north. And I think it would be an opportunity to kind of stitch back together the urban fabric of Downtown. And so there are a lot of pluses to a project like this.

And that’s why, in what I wrote in the op-ed, I focused on the timing, because despite all the possible benefits, I do think that this is a really really difficult time for this to happen. And we’re very time-limited, because this is kind of inevitably tied to TxDOT’s project to expand I-10 and widen the freeway through Downtown. And, so, we have to act quickly if a deck plaza is going to happen. And I just don’t know that it’s possible that all of the funding that has to materialize does so within the really, really short time frame. I mean, we’re talking a matter of a few months. I just don’t know that that’s realistic.

Diego: Yeah. And, so, we’ll touch a little bit more on some of that. But just to talk about the price tag, right, I mean, supporters of the deck park, the Deck Plaza Foundation paid for a cost estimate that they unveiled last summer that put the cost to build a deck park at $207 million, roughly. And, so, in the op-ed you wrote, you said the project costs would actually be $412 million. So, I just wonder if you can talk about the discrepancy and how much you think the project will actually cost?

Chris: Different people talking about the project, I think, talk about different segments of the cost. And, so, breaking it all down, the design cost would be about $20 million. That’s the estimate for what it would cost to get the whole thing construction-ready in terms of final blueprint design.

After that, the actual construction cost is estimated around $207 million. There’s a little bit of discrepancy between the numbers that you heard from the Deck Plaza Foundation and the total of those two. And that’s because they think that the design could be done a little bit less expensive than $20 million. But you see how those roughly line up. Now, what is not factored into that is the full cost of the amenities on top afterwards. And, so, in that cost estimate that they received and that we all have seen, it’s about another $205 million for the total amenitization of the location after the construction of the actual physical cap on the freeway. And, so, that brings you to that total of $412 million. Which, I think if you’re talking about a project, you should be talking about the total project cost, not just the construction of it. Also, everything else that has to go in around it, all the additional amenities and infrastructure that supports the deck plaza.

Diego: So, Tracy Yellen, the leader of the Deck Plaza Foundation – that additional $205 million, right, the difference between the $412 million you said and the $207 million they’ve said, that $205 million difference, supporters of deck park suggest that’s sort of private investment, right? And that’s just, kind of, money that will be spent by developers to build out housing and additional facilities on the park. Do you think that’s not accurate?

Chris: I don’t know that it’s exactly accurate. I don’t think that they’re being misleading when they say so. It’s going to be a mix of costs. Some of that will be potentially the development of pad sites that are left in a state ready to develop for something like housing or other surrounding uses. I think that they will run into more complications with TxDOT’s use of eminent domain that they’re proposing for their project. And those would have to be public uses afterwards. And I think they’ll run into some complications there that haven’t necessarily been examined or at least aren’t being discussed publicly.

And, so, I don’t think there’s a totally clear picture of what the breakdown of those costs looks like. So, it’s hard to say. Some of it is probably costs that would be footed as part of the project, and then some might come later. But I also don’t think anybody wants to construct a deck plaza and have vacant parcels there that aren’t developed as part of the project. I can understand the desire to say, ‘Well, we’ll push some of those costs off until later.’ That would feel like an incomplete project to me. And, so, again, that’s why I think it is valuable to talk about the project with that full $412 million price tag.

Diego: Yeah. And so talking about the funding mix, I guess, we heard from the Deck Plaza Foundation that supporters of the deck park plan to raise $25 million in private donations for the project. And I’ve got to follow-up on that, but I’m curious what you thought about that $25 million figure coming from private donors?

Chris: I hope that that’s correct. We don’t have – as far as the city, we don’t have anything firm on paper saying that that contribution will be forthcoming. So, I hope that they’re able to raise the funds that they’re talking about. I, personally, think that they would have to raise even more. We still would have a significant gap if the philanthropic contribution was only $25 million. In the city’s breakdown of the potential funding sources – and that’s something that the City Council asked our city manager and staff to develop – the estimated philanthropic contribution was over $100 million for what would be required. And, I think, that’s probably realistic in terms of what we would need to get from donors in order to close the gap on what the city’s able to do with our capacity, which they estimated around $35 million absolute maximum if we were to tap out all the funding sources we had available, probably something similar from the county.

And then there’s a state rider that’s pending. That’s part of the state’s budget process for another $10 million, plus some other federal grants that we’re applying to. But none of those things are for sure. It would need to be quite a big contribution to close the gap between what we have committed for sure, what we have pending in terms of state and federal outside money and philanthropic contribution.

Diego: Yeah. I appreciate you laying that out. And one thing I’ve noted is the Klyde Warren Park in Dallas is kind of held up as the model for El Paso, kind of what we’re trying to achieve here as far as developing a deck park. It’s been successful in Dallas in terms of attracting people back to downtown Dallas and inducing the construction of more housing and things like that, the Klyde Warren Park. But a key fact is that it had champions, right, early on that put up millions of their own money to kind of get the idea off the ground. And then, ultimately, I think about half of the project cost for Klyde Warren was paid for by wealthy philanthropists.

And, so, if you think about, $25 million out of the $207 million cost estimate, which is maybe the low-end estimate, that’s less than an eighth, right? So that’s a pretty big gap between the money that’s been put up here being – it’s not close to half yet, right? So, I hear what you’re saying.

I wonder, is there a level of private support at which you would become supportive of the deck park, right? Or is there a level at which the private donations reach where you would then go ‘OK, I support this’?

Chris: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s been a pretty strong outcry from the public that they don’t want to support this with debt. And I agree with that 100%. And, so, I think if we could put together the funding sources from state and federal, from some city sources that we could work out that are non-taxpayer funds, plus a large philanthropic contribution that filled the rest of that gap, then I could start to be more supportive of this. I think the line in the sand seems to be, “Do we have to bond out a portion of this and go into debt long term for this project?” And I stand on the side of, we shouldn’t do that. And if we do have to do that, then I wouldn’t be supportive of it.

Diego: Yeah. And I just wonder if you could expand a little bit on the fact that the city suggested it could put up $35 million, right? And you kind of laid out some of the potential for state support, which is – there’s not a lot of clarity on that. But we have seen some support from state lawmakers to put forth several million dollars here. I mentioned the potential $25 million from private donations. And, so, we’re seeing in some corners some money being put up, right? Or at least discussions about putting money up. And, so, there are some discussions here. And then, like I said, the $35 million dollars from the city.

I wonder if you had any thoughts on – I mean, that’s a fairly substantial sum. Were you surprised to see the city say it could put up that much? Or just curious if you had any thoughts on that $35 million dollar figure from the city?

Chris: Well, I want to remind you that this wasn’t a commitment from the city to say, “We will put up $35 million dollars.” If everything comes through, that was an estimate of the absolute maximum that the city would have the capacity to do. And, so, then it would just take decisions from the city council, hopefully informed by constituents, about the trade-offs of spending that money from the funding sources that were talked about. That includes things like the Texas Economic Development Fund, which is one of our funds that we’re able to use to bring in businesses. It’s for job creation. This isn’t necessarily the most traditional use of that money. And, so, we would have to make a – it’s a value judgment at the end of the day. Like, is this worth it? Is this a worthwhile use of that kind of funding source? And is it worth the trade-off of not being able to use those funds to bring in new business, create new jobs for El Pasoans?

Diego: Yeah, and that kind of leads into my next question, which is sort of the economic development potential of the deck park, right? And I think the thinking of supporters is that, “Hey, if we build this, the property values of Downtown properties nearby rise, and so therefore the property tax revenue the city generates from those properties increases.” And then, maybe, having the deck park there attracts maybe more companies or professionals or something to move into El Paso or to stay here. So, I just wonder how you think about the economic development potential of the deck park for the city, maybe relative to some of the other projects that the city is pursuing?

Chris: I don’t want to be a cynic, but I don’t think it’s that shocking that the folks who are strong supporters of this project are the ones who own a lot of property in the immediate vicinity. It would greatly increase property values there. And again, I don’t say that in a cynical way. That’s just kind of the reality of this kind of project. But also, there are some real benefits that communities see – that are spurred by this kind of investment. And, so, you brought up Klyde Warren Park, the deck plaza in Dallas. That has led to quite a significant increase in the property tax revenue that the city generates from the area around that amenity. And we would probably see something similar.

Again, the issue is less so the perceived benefit or possible benefits of creating something like this. It’s more the timing. Those benefits are something that are realized over a long period of time. And we really, right now, have a very short amount of time to come up with the funding. And it’s the kind of incongruency between those two timelines that makes this difficult right now. It’s not to say that this wouldn’t be successful if it was built well into the future. But do we harm the people who live in El Paso now, the taxpayers now, in order to realize that benefit in the future? That’s the value question that we all have to think through.

Diego: Yeah, and just to get into the timeline for a minute, I mean, the pressure for this, right, is the fact that the Texas Department of Transportation is going to be widening the highway Downtown. And, so, they’re going to be proceeding with that work pretty soon here, within the next year. And, so, the thinking is that the city has to have some money put up to show TxDOT, “Hey, here’s our design. Factor this into your design of the freeway.” And, so, I just wonder your thoughts on this timeline? I mean, it raises the pressure on the city, right? And it kind of creates some urgency around this issue. But it may make it unviable because it’s such a short timeline?

Chris: Yeah, the Texas Department of Transportation, TxDOT, has had this project on the books for quite a while. They’re planning to do a widening of I-10. Originally, it was four additional lanes. Now it’s just two additional lanes. And, so, they’ve had to modify their scope a few times, and they’ve also pushed their timeline out quite a few times. And in some cases, reeled it back in. It’s been a pretty fraught project for them in terms of securing the funding that they need. Currently, they’ve decided to phase the project into just doing the middle first, and then building their way out, which is interesting. And the middle being the downtown trenched portion of I-10. And the full project extends all the way out to Schuster on one end and Copia on the other end. So, it’s quite a large segment that they want to expand.

It’s not a project that I’ve ever really been supportive of. I don’t think we need two additional lanes through Downtown. I don’t think that TxDOT did a thorough job in their modeling of the future traffic in the area. They’re building a bypass through the Anthony Gap in the northeast that wasn’t factored in. They’ve constructed the new border highway segment that also wasn’t really factored in. And, so, I just don’t think that they’ll see the traffic through Downtown that they modeled.

That said, this is a project that they’ve continued to proceed with. They’ve secured $500 million for that initial phase, and they say that that is going to happen within the next year. And, so, they’ll have their draft plan out, at least according to their current timeline, by summer of this year. And that essentially becomes our time limit for the deck plaza.

As they’re finalizing the design of the project, TxDOT, they’ll have to know whether or not they’re going to have all this additional construction in order to build the supportive structures for a deck plaza. And that’s the constraint here. I do think that that makes the project a lot less likely to succeed, because it’s such a short timeline.

And yes, the deck plaza project isn’t brand new. It’s been discussed for a while, but it’s only escalated fairly recently with TxDOT finally setting a more firm timeline. And I just don’t know that we’ll be able to secure the funding that’s needed by that deadline that kind of popped up on us.

Diego: So, as somebody who’s been open to kind of urbanism, and more walkable communities and preventing sprawl, right, and more infill development, I wonder how you think about this potential outcome you’re laying out about basically a wider freeway Downtown with no park on top, right? It’s something that I think supporters of the deck park see as the worst outcome possible, I guess.

Chris: Yeah, it’s definitely not a good outcome. And it’s the reason why I haven’t supported TxDOT’s project. And I’m sure if you asked them, they would say that I’ve actively hindered their project. I’ve had some votes that have made their jobs a little more difficult, and I don’t feel too bad about that because I think it’s important to have contrary voices in some of these kinds of projects. But, yeah, that wouldn’t be the best outcome, to have a widened highway with no connectivity

I will say that regardless of the outcome of the deck plaza, we have a lot of work to do, I think, to convince TxDOT to make their project better. Even if the city wanted to do the deck plaza – or, not just the city, but the community, the combination of the city and county and the Deck Plaza Foundation and others – TxDOT is still talking about high-speed frontage roads on either side. How is somebody going to access a deck plaza if they have to cross a high-speed highway frontage road?

And, so, we’ve been doing a lot of work behind the scenes to convince TxDOT that that’s not the right thing to do, that they need to consider the urban context around them on both sides of the highway. And we’ve gotten some small concessions in their design. But I think that’s the case whether there’s a deck plaza there or not.

We have bridges between the Downtown area and the neighborhoods to the north, already those are pretty difficult to traverse sometimes, right? The frontage there on both sides, Wyoming and Yandell, those are not exactly the best streets to cross all the time. People come off the highway very quickly, and maintain some of that speed on those roads. And, so, I think regardless of whether or not there’s a deck plaza or not, it’s very important that the community continues to advocate for lower-speed roads there that blend more into the context around them and making it easier for pedestrians to get back and forth across I-10.

Diego: Yeah, and I think one under-discussed part of this is the likely demolition of a lot of buildings along Yandell Drive. I think that’s something that – the project hasn’t gotten to that point, but I think that’s something that is going to be a little bit disruptive. I think the Holocaust Museum might get taken. And, so, anyways, that’s another aspect of it.

Just another question, too, Chris, about economic development generally. And I just wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you decide what’s a worthy project to support and what isn’t. And I know there’s a lot of factors and context project by project.

I think one of the big economic development projects going on in El Paso right now is the development of the Meta data center in Northeast El Paso, which is a huge investment. Probably fairly modest job numbers, right? Maybe it’ll employ 50 people. And a large amount of the city property taxes will be abated for 25 years. And, so, I can see the economic development outcomes from that project, in the near-term, are fairly limited, right? But it’s kind of held up as one of the big projects the city’s touting right now as, “Hey, this is a big win for us,” right? And so I just wonder, again, every project is different and there’s a context, just different factors for every one. But I wonder how you look at projects and decide, “Hey, this is something I want to support. This is something I think the city should pursue and maybe devote some resources to?”

Chris: Yeah, the Meta project is quite large. And trust me when I say I did have some hangups about it, especially early on. And they’ve come in with a lot of, I think, important steps toward making it especially ecologically more friendly, which really influenced my decision ultimately to support it.

You mentioned that the impact to the city’s property tax revenue will largely be abated for a long period of time. But I think it’s important to point out that, while the city ends up taking the lead on a lot of these projects, and we’re the ones really who make the investment, the other taxing entities benefit greatly.

So, the school districts, the hospital district, EPCC, the county, they’re largely not participating in a lot of these economic development projects, but they’re still receiving the tax benefit. And ultimately, that’s additional service that they can provide to the city, even if the city government isn’t the ones realizing that benefit. And, so, we do think about the total tax benefit to all of the taxing entities and not just the revenue potential for the city.

And again, something, a period of 25 years is long, but also not that long in the greater arc of history. And, so, these are projects that in the longer-term will eventually have a positive benefit to the city as well in terms of our property tax revenue. And I think people are skeptical of the city sometimes seeking out new revenue. But you have to remember these are things that are longer-term investments in a way.

Ultimately, that new revenue to the city or to any of the other taxing entities goes right back into the services that they provide to people. And, so, we want to make sure that in the long-term we’re growing those sources, even if it doesn’t have an immediate benefit for us.

Diego: Yeah, and just to go back – just a couple more questions here – but to go back to kind of the urbanism thinking, right, and, you’ve spoken out against the sprawl, right, and the negative effects of the kind of ever-expanding city that we see and some of the environmental impacts and impacts to resources and things like that. And you’ve been supportive of, like, for example, the renovation of the Popular Building and an introduction of new apartments there Downtown. And, so, I wonder about the potential for a deck park, if it were to get built, right, to spur demand for more housing downtown?

And maybe not even Downtown, but kind of the core generally, right, here in kind of Central El Paso. And to kind of curb the sprawl, right, and the flight of people to the edges of the city and to outside the city limits. I just wonder the potential to bring more residents back to the core of El Paso if there is a large, five-block-long park acting as kind of a central park for the city?

Chris: I’ve heard the argument a lot from supporters of the project, that they think it would bring more people to the core. I don’t necessarily think that that’s what will do it. I don’t really buy that argument that much. I think we need to invest in housing options for people. And that’s the biggest impediment right now is if they wanted to move Downtown, right now, they couldn’t because the units aren’t available for them. And I don’t think a single green space amenity makes the difference on whether or not someone wants to move to a city’s Downtown or not. I don’t think it hurts either, but it’s not a large impact in my mind. And, of course, I could be wrong. I don’t know. I chose to live where I live now in part because it’s near a park that I like. And I realize that is part of the decision-making when someone chooses where to live. But, I don’t think it’s as big a factor as maybe some folks are making it out to be.

Diego: Yeah. And last thing here. You’ve been in office for a couple of years now. And prior to that, you worked at City Hall. So, you’ve heard this argument for years that El Paso needs big quality-of-life projects, right? To sort of create a vibrant Downtown and create a city that professionals want to live in right and that people don’t want to leave to go work in Dallas or Phoenix or wherever. But I just wonder if you can kind of talk about, like, how do you balance just providing day-to-day, high-quality city services, right? And making sure that there aren’t potholes and that emergency response times are strong, and really the nuts-and-bolts, but then also have these big city-defining projects that we look back on decades from now, right? I mean, I think every city wants to pursue these big projects and really leave the mark and kind of change the city and add more amenities and so forth. But, how do you balance these big city-defining projects with just providing solid day-to-day services every day? And do you think one’s more important than the other?

Chris: Yeah, there definitely has to be a balance. I think the city has spent the last 13 years since the 2012 quality-of-life passed, really focused on big signature quality-of-life projects. And that has yielded lots of new great amenities for the public. I mean, we opened the Mexican American Cultural Center a few months ago, and that’s a fantastic facility. It’s beautiful. It offers wonderful courses and programs to the public that I think people will benefit from for years and years and decades to come. There are lots and lots of other projects that emerged from that bond package that were very, very helpful and successful. And I know we are reaching the end of that. And that’s, I think, in large part why this deck plaza conversation has happened now as those projects wrap up.

But I do think that, especially in the economic situation we’re in now in the United States – and particularly in Texas, where the state Legislature has made it more difficult for cities to fund the things that we need to through preemption and lots of other changes that they’ve made over the past several sessions – we do really need to focus on preserving the amenities that we have.

The city of El Paso has a lot of very, very old building stock that we still have in use. And I’m talking recreation centers, municipal government buildings, museums, all kinds of different amenities that we offer to the public. They’re old. We have lots of old ones compared to other cities, and they need a lot of help. They need a lot of work. We need new HVAC systems, and some of them need new roofs. I think those are worthwhile places to direct some of our funding right now. That’s as much, to me, a quality of life issue as building new things. We want to make sure that the amenities that are already in the neighborhoods where people live are able to continue serving them into the future and we don’t have to close them because the buildings aren’t usable anymore.

And then, obviously, streets is the number one issue we hear about all the time. That’s probably the number one thing that you use everyday that the city provides as a service, is the streets that you use to get to work or get to your doctor’s appointment or get to your kid’s play date. You’re using them constantly.

Obviously, those aren’t at a great level of service either, and we’ve seen that deteriorate over the last 15 to 20 years at a pretty accelerated rate. That’s something that we hear from the public all the time that we should be focusing on, and we are. This year, just like last year and just like the year before, we were breaking the record for the amount of money that we’re spending on street resurfacing and reconstruction. But it’s a never-ending battle against deterioration of streets. Especially in a place like El Paso, where we have difficult sun conditions, and it causes a lot of deterioration of roads.

And we need to be focusing on some of those core things as well. It’s not to say that we can’t do some sort of larger signature project. We just, when the economy is like this, have to make sure that we do it at a time that makes sense, and that I think we don’t piecemeal those projects. You know, I’ll tie it back to the deck plaza and say we’re on this incredibly scrunched up time frame, right?

Ideally, we could plan this out over a longer period of time and put together multiple federal grants, for example, and state funding riders from multiple legislative sessions to kind of build this out over time. And because we don’t have the opportunity to do that, that makes it difficult. It’s hard to say for sure that accelerating all of that funding through something like a bond election and issuing debt would make sense when we have all of these other community needs that are also quality of life projects in that people use them every day. And if they’re not maintained well, the quality of life suffers.

Diego: We’ll leave it there, Chris. Thanks so much for joining me for a thoughtful discussion. And we’ll keep following how the deck plaza continues from here. So, thanks for your time.

Chris: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Always happy to come back.

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