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Why we're losing: the flaw in the Democratic Immigration argument [1]
['This Content Is Not Subject To Review Daily Kos Staff Prior To Publication.']
Date: 2025-07-27
They claim this is all about “Law and Order” but is it?
Continued...
This is what these ICE raids have devolved into as they arrest and detain a Doctor dropping off his child at day care in Oregon, a set of construction workers working on a building in Alabama, 12 people at Home Depot including a US Citizen in Sacramento (Just for the record, I live 2.5 miles from that Home Depot, I shop there all the time) a person who just showed up for his immigration hearing, and someone who was just monitoring ICE as they made an arrest. These are not the “worst of the worst”, these are not “violent criminals” some of them are not undocumented or even migrants.
Then you have some MAGAs who are saying they should shoot migrants at the border.
A Massachusetts man called on President Donald Trump to go "a lot further" on immigration by shooting undocumented immigrants. During Sunday's Washington Journal program on C-SPAN, a man named Ryan called in to urge the president to be tougher on immigration. "I like what the Trump administration's doing, but I think they could be doing a little bit more," the caller said. "Number one, they could militarize the border and shoot illegals coming into the country." "Ryan, why do you think we need to go so far as to shoot people coming into the country?" host John McArdle wondered. "Because other countries do it and they keep their immigration way down," the caller replied. "Another thing they can do besides, when an employer hires an illegal, number one, not only should they fine them, they should imprison them for doing it. You have to get really tough to solve this problem." "And you could also process them like a military combatant, putting them in a military tribunal, finding them guilty, and then shipping them the hell out of the country," he added. "Enough is enough. I mean, Trump's doing a good job, in my opinion, but I think they could go a lot further and solve this problem."
Shooting someone trying to cross the border is committing mass murder in another country. Plus, the punishment for crossing without authorization is a misdemeanor worth 6 months in jail, not a capital offense worth summary execution. It would be a human rights crime. This is nuts.
This is the “Great America” that these MAGAs want, where people who are just living their lives, contributing to the community or simply standing by — are being scooped up indiscriminately. If you look different, if you speak up, if you complain too loudly, you’ll be grabbed and disappeared.
These people claim that this is an issue of “law and order”, and that these migrants should “come in the (so-called) right way” but they don’t seem to understand anything about what the law actually says.
In the first video Parker does a good job of debating the MAGA woman. He argues that if you belive in “law and order” and wouldn't allow someone found liable for sexual assault to enter the country or become a citizen, why would you allow Donald Trump to become President when he was found liable for essentially Rape?
If you oppose the violence of protestors who have fought with ICE in the streets of Los Angeles, why would you support the pardoning of 600 people [he says it was 160, but that’s wrong] who were convicted of assaulting police on January 6.
Even some close allies of Mr. Trump had opposed granting clemency to those rioters found guilty of violent crimes, especially the more than 600 who were convicted of assaulting or resisting police officers. Of those defendants, nearly 175 used a dangerous or deadly weapon, prosecutors say.
Typically in denial, the MAGA woman denies that anyone during J6 did any violence at all, but they did. She talks about an officer who “suffered a heart attack” but that was Officer Fanone.
Some of the videos document the gruesome moment when Officer Fanone, who rushed to defend the Capitol on his day off, was dragged into the crowd by Mr. Head, beaten by Mr. Young and then attacked with a stun gun by Mr. Rodriguez. Video from Officer Fanone’s body camera shows Mr. Rodriguez driving the stun gun into Officer Fanone’s neck, causing him to scream. Officer Fanone, who has since left the police force, sustained grievous injuries that day and suffered a heart attack.
So Parker is trying to square these circles and challenge the MAGA on their consistency — if they condemn criminals and violence, why can’t they condemn Donald Trump who was convicted of 34 felonies? Why can’t they condemn even the J6ers who were convicted of violence against police?
Typically, they are massively clueless and delusional about Trump’s sexual assault trial, or his criminal case. They are usually highly misinformed about the events of J6 and claim only 1 person, Ashley Babbitt, was killed that day by an officer who shot her as she tried to enter the Speaker’s lobby where members of Congress were trying to escape the building.
And usually, Dems arguing with them fail to set the record straight, and although Parker tries, he’s still as wrong as she is.
I posted this in his comments:
9 people died as a result of J6, 4 protestors including Babbit, 1 officer who collapsed that night and had a two strokes and 4 more officers who later committed suicide. As far as "Peaceful Protests" goes, the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were convicted of Seditious Conspiracy, which is worse than Insurrection, because they had a written plan to invade and occupy the buildings called "1776 Returns." They were planning to be violent from the beginning.
It wasn’t just a “protest” the entire point was to interrupt the counting of the electoral votes — you can’t do that by just yelling from outside the building.
These are good arguments, but they miss the point.
Donald Trump and ICE are actively violating the law and the Constitution.
I also posted this comment:
Democrats need to make this argument: Coming here "the Right Way" includes requesting and being granted Asylum which is a legal process and an international right under the UN 1951 Refugee Convention that was founded because of the Nazi Holocaust and ratified by the US in 1968. Even if you aren't granted Asylum, unless you are a documented violent criminal, you have the right to DUE PROCESS which means being granted a hearing before an immigration judge before you can be removed or deported - this is the case for 89% of migrants [even if they are technically “undocumented.’] The problem is that the backlog for a hearing is 7 years, that's why there are millions of "undocumented" people here who are stuck in limbo in this process. President Biden made a deal with Senate Republicans to add hundreds more immigration judges which would have eliminated the backlog - but Donald Trump bullied them into killing that bill.
“Due process” is not just for U.S. Citizens. It applies to every person who is physically within the jurisdiction of the United States. That means migrants — documented and undocumented — also.
This would be following the law. This would be consistent with the Constitution. With more immigration judges, the wait-time for determining these migrants' ultimate fate would be reduced from years to weeks. We wouldn’t have millions of people remaining in this nebulous status for years, even decades; their status would be resolved — they would either be deported or granted the right to stay. They would be fish or fowl, not something in-between.
MAGA constantly ask “Why didn’t Biden do something about the border?” Well, if he was following the law, which he mostly was, he would still have to abide by the Asylum laws and he would have to abide by due process. People who surrender themselves to border patrol and request asylum would have to be granted that right under the law [although he did severely restrict access for those making the claim]. People who contested their deportation would have to be allowed to do that within the immigration court system. That’s the law.
Joe Biden did, under Title 42, implement a system that expanded what’s called “Expedited Removal” for people who showed signs of Covid infection. He implemented this for anyone caught crossing the border who had a criminal record or showed up in the “Terrorist Watch List.” He also banned the entry into the nation by “single adults” as well, which I always thought was rather extreme. Millions of people were blocked from entry by Biden.
Upon entering office, the Biden administration sought to end Trump-era policies, including the Migrant Protection Protocols (also known as Remain in Mexico), which forced asylum seekers to wait in Mexico while their U.S. cases proceeded, and Title 42, a public health authority invoked during the COVID-19 pandemic that permitted the immediate expulsion of migrants without an asylum screening. Administration efforts to end both policies were met with litigation by Republican-led states; Remain in Mexico was wound down in August 2022 and Title 42 was expanded to apply to migrants of additional nationalities and endured until May 2023. During the three years the expulsions policy was in use, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) expelled migrants at the Southwest border 2.9 million times, of which more than 2.5 million (or 86 percent) occurred under Biden.
The only people who were encountered at the border and not immediately removed were unaccompanied children and families who arrived together. But he didn’t just send them on their merry way.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Family Expedited Removal (FERM) program puts parents and children who are apprehended at the U.S. border into a rapid screening process that keeps families under heavy surveillance. Borrowing from the carceral and criminal probation system, ICE requires one parent to wear an ankle monitor and remain confined in their home at night. After being released from CBP detention, families must appear at the asylum office for their credible fear screening within days of their arrival at their destination city. If their screening outcome is negative, they may have up to one additional week to seek review by an immigration judge. If the judge affirms the Department of Homeland Security’s negative screening decision, the family must soon report to an ICE office for deportation – usually within a week.
So it’s simply not true that Biden was just “letting people come in willy nilly.” He didn’t. He also deported nearly a million people.
In the 12 months after Title 42 ended, the Biden administration ramped up deportations under the standard U.S. immigration framework, Title 8, and removed or returned 775,000 unauthorized migrants—more than in any previous fiscal year since 2010. From May 2023 through March 2024, 316,000 migrants were processed via expedited removal, more than in any prior full fiscal year. And for the first time since FY 2010, in FY 2023 more migrants were returned directly across the border, mostly to Mexico, than were removed from the U.S. interior.
In his last year, Biden averaged 750 deportations a day — which is more than Trump has been doing — and 90% of the people he deported were criminals, where as 72% of the people Trump has been detaining and the deporting are not convicted criminals.
There is an image out there that millions of “illegals” hopped and swam over the border and are running around without being identified and tracked. That is only true for a tiny fraction of migrants; estimates are that only 2-5% of undocumented migrants are “got aways” who are not part of any legal process.
There is also the trope that migrants are mostly “violent criminals,” but all the available stats show that isn’t true. Just for example, the murder rate of U.S. citizens is 2.8 per 100k people. For all migrants, that rate is 2.4 per 100k and for the undocumented, it is only 1.4 per 100k. Demonstrably, they are less violent and dangerous than the average American citizen because they don’t want to be arrested, because that will interrupt their immigration hearings proceedings and get them deported.
They generally don’t want that.
95-98% of migrants who cross the border turn themselves in to Border Patrol in order to request Asylum. When they do that they are entering a legal process that will either end with them being granted or denied Asylum, or else being granted or denied of the legal right to remain in the U.S.
Usually, about 85-95% of these migrants attend their immigration hearings.
83% of nondetained immigrants with completed or pending removal cases attended all of their hearings.
96% of nondetained immigrants represented by a lawyer attended all of their hearings.
15% of those who were ordered deported because they did not appear in court successfully reopened their cases and had their removal orders rescinded. In some years, as many as 20% of all orders of removal for missing court were later overturned.
Individuals who apply for relief from removal have especially high rates of appearance.
About 57% of them are ultimately granted the right to remain in the U.S.
In U.S. immigration courts, approximately 57% of closed cases result in the migrant being granted a right to stay in the country. This figure represents the overall average across all immigration courts. However, the success rate can vary significantly depending on the specific court, the type of case, and other factors.
If you cross the border and go through these proceedings your odds are (were) better than 50/50 that you’ll ultimately be allowed to stay.
All of that is a legitimate legal process.
All of that is “doing it the right way” because that’s how the law works.
If MAGA don’t want this to be how things work, they can and should go through Congress to change the laws, but instead they are supporting the Trump administration, which is acting in a completely lawless manner, openly violating the Constitution and ignoring Federal court orders, including orders from the Supreme Court blatantly and defiantly.
We even have documentation that this is the plan from the DOJ.
Last month, Reuveni issued a public statement opposing the nomination of Bove, who is one of Mr. Trump's former criminal defense lawyers. The text and email messages, which were obtained by Democratic leadership on the Senate Judiciary Committee, show Reuveni unsuccessfully pressed his colleagues and other federal agencies for assistance in fulfilling a court order that Abrego Garcia be returned to the U.S. in March. Dozens of the email messages also allegedly reveal attempts by Trump administration officials to label Abrego Garcia a leader of the gang MS-13 — which Abrego Garcia's lawyers have strongly denied — and downplay the agency's mistake in removing him to El Salvador. The messages by Reuveni also warn about the legal peril of ignoring court orders. One of the messages in the batch purportedly showed that a homeland security official conflated Abrego Garcia's alleged MS-13 membership with membership in Tren de Aragua, a different gang based in Venezuela. Some of the text messages from Reuveni included exchanges by Reuveni and a Justice Department colleague in which they refer to alleged instructions from Bove to communicate a "f*** you" to the court's order that Abrego Garcia and others be returned from El Salvador to U.S. custody after the March 15 deportation flights. One such exchange between Trump administration officials, including Justice Department officials, from the night of the March 15 court order to return the deportation flights, includes a reference to the alleged "f*** you" guidance.
These people don’t give a fuck about the law. They don’t give a fuck about judicial orders. They don’t give a fuck about the Constitution. What they’re doing isn’t about protecting the public from “crime.” Some of them want to commit Mass Murder. They’re putting the people they grab off the street into a literal Concentration Camp they’ve haughtily nick-named “Alligator Alcatraz.”
More like Alligator Auschwitz.
They’re implementing a regime of Ethnic Cleansing. They’re trying to purge brown people from the nation, regardless of anything they’ve done and regardless of the law. They believe in “White Genocide.” They believe in the “Great Replacement Theory.”
They’re Fucking Bigots. Period.
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