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Giuliani DC Bar Disciplinary Hearing, Day 2 [1]

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Date: 2022-12-07

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a lawyer for President Trump, at a news conference Thursday at the Republican National Committee headquarters in Washington. Jacquelyn Martin / AP

The morning session finished up with Professor Dan Ortiz, who continued—in a low-key, mild, law professor way—to explain how both the factual assertions and legal theories in the Pennsylvania case were BS.

On cross examination, the main emphasis was that this case is completely unprecedented and Giuliani did not have a lot of time to prepare. There was some argument about case law on standing which was way too hypothetical for me to follow.

In the afternoon, we got to hear Giuliani’s witnesses. This was a rogue’s gallery of fringe right wingers and Trump sycophants.

First up was Corey Lewandowski. Lewandowski testimony revolved around himself and (former Florida AG) Pam Bondi being denied access to the ballot counting in Philadelphia. The area was secured by metal detectors and law enforcement, and when they were at first denied access they obtained a court order. The next day, even with the court order, they waited 15 to 20 minutes until a Sheriff approached and “threatened” them with jail if they breached the perimeter. They were finally granted access and issued a badge the following day (November 6th), but had to stand so far away it was “all but impossible to see what was happening.” Lewandowski said he left after about 15 minutes. There was no cross-examination.

Next up was John Droz. Droz purportedly has real degrees in physics and math, but spent most of his career (and made most of his money) investing in real estate. Droz is known for being a climate-change denier and promoting junk science. Some reports state that Droz made his fortune after he became an advisor to a NC-20 lobbying group that removed restrictions on coastal development. Argument about whether Droz qualified as an expert followed, along with a dispute whether his report (which he did not author himself, but had provided to Giuliani) should be admitted. The report was admitted solely for the purpose of Giuliani’s state of mind and not for the truth of its substantive contents.

Next up was Christina Bobb, who is more recently infamous for her part in the Mar-A-Lago documents scandal. Bobb is a former US Marine and JAG officer who served in Afghanistan and then as a reservist in Stuttgart Germany. Bobb worked as a “reporter and host” for OAN before being connected to Trump. Bobb says she is now employed by the Trump 2024 campaign. One of the panel members asked Bobb whether she knew anything about “coordinating cases across jurisdictions” (she didn’t). Mr. Bernius (who is conducting the hearing) confirmed that Bobb did not work on cases in Pennsylvania (the subject of the investigation).

Last witness was Bernard Kerik. Kerik served in some National Security capacity in the Bush administration and at one time was warden at Rikers. He made some allusion to having “paid cash to a nanny.” Kerik was serving a four-year sentence for tax avoidance and lying to officials when Trump pardoned him shortly before leaving the White House. Unfortunately, these witnesses were not cross examined about the more unsavory aspects of their past as well as obvious potential bias.

Giuliani testified on this own behalf. He went on some length about his glorified past prosecuting “mob bosses, Nazis and Congressmen,” as well as his “heroism” on September 11th (he did give credit to the first responders). Giuliani testified that he first became involved with Trump during the “Russian collusion” impeachment investigation in 2019.

It was hard to follow exactly what Giuliani’s role was in the Pennsylvania litigation. Folks like Lewandowski, Kerik, Project Veritas and other right-wing conspiracists were continually feeding him information. It was difficult to know how much Giuliani was being evasive and where he was genuinely confused. It was pointed out that many of the “fraud” like events that people were pushing at him fast and furious from other jurisdictions got mixed up in his Pennsylvania pleadings. At various times, Giuliani appeared to forget his own testimony. So…even if Giuliani isn’t found to have committed a disciplinary offense, there is a good case for lack of competence. Although Giuliani should be held to account for his own actions, I got the distinct impression that he was being manipulated by the Trumpers.

Mr. Fox and two of the panel members cross-examined Giuliani. There was some humorous moments about a document that purported to suggest that persons born in 1854, 1800 and 1900 had “voted,” Mr. Fox asked how could you know if these “old” (or dead) people voted for Trump or Biden? Giuliani admitted there was no way to know, which then prompted the comment from Mr. Fox that “older voters tend to favor Trump” (this made everyone laugh). The main emphasis here was that the “dead voters” argument was not raised in the PA pleadings—which focused mainly on keeping observers at a distance and notice and cure provisions of provisional voting. And even here Giuliani could not say for certain whether these things happened to Democrats as well as Republicans.

Giuliani said that “eerily similar” allegations were coming in from multiple jurisdictions (which he seems to have muddled with his Pennsylvania pleadings), and that the plan was to consolidate all of the allegations for a “bigger, consolidated case that would have better chances.” There were stories about people showing up to vote and then told they had already voted (which prompted the provisional ballots).

Panel member Jay Brozost (who had a slight frown during most of the hearing) said he had served under Giuliani as a “young trial attorney,” but made no further comment about this. Mr. Brozost ascertained that Giuliani had no real experience in election law (except, perhaps as a candidate, but not as an attorney). It was also established that Trump had designated Giuliani to coordinate multi-jurisdictional litigation.

Tomorrow, they will resume the hearing at 11:00 am, to give counsel time to agree which exhibits are to be admitted and to prepare closing statements. Mr. Bernius advised the attorneys to prepare “like you would for an appeal,” addressing the facts (he said not to focus on law unless needed to clarify facts) and expect questioning. They will then go into executive session and enter a “nonbinding” decision. Both parties will have the opportunity to prepare findings of fact and conclusions of law. “If needed,” they will move into the sanctions phase, where Giuliani will have the opportunity to present mitigating evidence.

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[1] Url: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/12/7/2140624/-Giuliani-DC-Bar-Disciplinary-Hearing-Day-2

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