[mim3 comments: The participants in this discussion have been going at
it for years. Finally, mim3 says s/he is tired of the discussion as it
is fruitless and suggests intervention in "Marxism Space." Shortly
after MIM brought this thread to "Marxism-General" at
jefferson.village.virginia.edu, it became moderated contrary to its
own charter. Effectively, long threads such as this were banned. Other
articles posted by MIM mysteriously disappeared, and although the
moderators claimed the stupidity of Robert Malecki and Rolf Martens as
the reason for the change, the two of them had been posting for years
without any problem before. MIM has a long history of being banned on
the INTERNET, including by people who invented rules against banning
or moderation. Once MIM was banned on Marxism Space, it set up some
more web pages like this one to accommodate the struggle.]
On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 B wrote:
> Reply to Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:02:53 -0500 (EST) message by
[email protected]. > "/" indicates paragraph break in quoted material. > >
Mim3: ... Ole Wolf tried to support you on Turanians and Blacks by
saying > he doesn't understand cats. / Look where you are leading
people?! > Turanians and Blacks > are compared with pets of lower
thinking orders. Well I don't spend much > time talking with cats. I
leave the science of that to vets and > biologists. > > B replies:
Here MIM expounds the standard American bourgeois assumptions, > and
reveals scientific ignorance re. cats. MIM also revealed such >
attitudes on page 35 of MT13 when they say "We agree that it does not
> make sense to describe humans as 'better' than insects, but it would
be > correct to describe humans as 'more complex,' and to make
distinctions > based on that difference." The science of complexity is
a new field, and
First it was soda-cans. Now it is cats. Malecki admitted a few months
back that before he became a Trotskyist he was a Christian who talked
to animals MOST of the day. Why don't you get a CLUE why these
Christians/vegans etc. DO THAT.
You are taking a post-modernist line on animals--everything being
equal and therefore everything is relative. It is not that you are a
revolutionary scientist like Stalin. You are as yet just a relativist.
There is a big difference between what seemed to be amoralism on
Stalin's part and relativism. Relativism is simply an immature
rejection of science. That was not Stalin's bag. He'd cut you down in
a minute for this.
> has not yet (to my knowledge) produced an objective way to measure >
"complexity." Any statements made comparing the complexity of
organisms > is bound to reflect unscientific cultural assumptions, in
MIM's case > tracing back to Western humanism and ultimately to
Christian religious > doctrine. The eminent biologist Stephen Jay
Gould has argued that some > bacteria are more complex than humans,
based on DNA length. > > Currently, there is also no scientific basis
for the statement that "cats > are of lower thinking orders than
humans." This too traces back to > Western hierarchal ideology, and is
the same type of thinking that > produced theories of racial
superiority. It traces back IMO to Western > people acutely FEELING
different from animals, their own women, and > people of other races
(modern neurology suggests this is due to brain
This stuff only discredits those believing humyn community. It's a
Nazi dream come-true. They probably planted these ideas to make us
look stupid.
> > Mim3: I do talk with Turanians, Blacks, FN--everyone. To do so,
you MUST > do so with the ASSUMPTION that we are ALL-KNOWABLE to each
other. > Otherwise, you should do EVERYONE a favor and just say you
think it's > impossible and not waste time. It's the same thing for
the stupid hetero > pseudo-fems. They say men cannot understand wimmin
and yet they create > feminism to do what? To improve their relations
with men. Those who > assume communication is impossible should not be
spreading hetero > feminism! .. > > B replies: Why not follow through
on your solipsistic logic, since you > cannot be from all of the above
ethnic groups: you are not them, > therefore they are inferior. Much
better talking with creatures of > "higher thinking orders." Since
science cannot measure this, this logic > must rely on white culture
assumptions. So, since white men are the > smartest and most advanced
and complex people in God's creation, why > waste time talking to
inferior life forms? Etc etc. See where wrong ideas > lead? >
I'll tell you where they lead! I'm not going to waste my time talking
to you all. Soda-cans! Cats! People who can't know Turanians but spend
6 hours on the phone doing it. You are a bunch of intellectual
jerk-offs.
> PHEW! Back to the point, these interactions peoples/people such as
FNs, > Blacks, etc, their will is not necessarily to make you have
omniscience > of them, duh, they interact with you for their own
selfish purposes. I > don't mean this in a judging or moral sense. See
Mao, there is no such > thing as omniscience. Either way, just because
people cannot attain > omniscience does not mean that communication is
futile.
You are a long twisted way away from the original statements that
started this discussion. Quite the contrary to what you just said,
Tani said it was IMPOSSIBLE to understand Blacks, Turanians etc. There
is no TWO ways about this question, much as you try to hem and haw.
> > Mim3: You keep talking about breeding humyns--now even in
opposition to > getting them Robocop bodies. This eugenics crap, like
I said before, it > goes in a Nazi direction. > > B replies: T has
said (to me at least) that eugenics means such things as > good
prenatal care, good health, good nutrition, etc. This is not like >
Nazi-style eugenics (e.g., eliminate genes for whatever)at all, which
T > has opposed, since it can make unforeseeable changes on the
affected > population. E.g., remove genes for sickle-cell anemia and
you also remove > existing resistance to malaria. BUT good nutrition
and care can eliminate > Fetal Alchohol Syndrome, for example. T has
also said that e.g. blind
This is b.s. "Eugenics"--look at the root word! Good nutrition does
not alter your genetics! It changes your body. There is no reason to
call that "eugenics," except to make Nazism warm-and-fuzzy.
Look folks, we need to part ways partially here. I feel that these
discussions have taken on an indulgent air. Let us work together
PRACTICALLY. I have reached a point where I cannot sanction the
relativism and solipsism--not to mention the usual tensions between
COS and MIM. We are wasting time talking to each other. You have no
chance of changing my mind on this subject and I have no interest in
rehashing subjects Lenin already did better.
We can work together on the Marxism Space. Let us focus on where we
have more unity and learn in practice through interaction with the
masses. Also, if you would like to do study-reviews of books and
articles--be my guest. Lenin's Materialism and Empirio-Criticism would
be very much in order considering where we have bogged down. A
THOROUGH review of progressive biologists and why they OPPOSE eugenics
would also be in order. If you show that you understand that in
detailed and systematic fashion, THEN go on to make your other
arguments about good eugenics if you must. I'm not interested in
having these casual discussions about very serious topics like that.
Please take me out of this discussion group.
Send me things you know I'd agree with and post to the Marxism Space.
Let's observe that relative to most people calling themselves
"Marxist," MIM has more unity with materialists not calling themselves
"Marxist." Also tell Tani not to waste her time on us, writing
letters. I want to see her on the INTERNET both so she can be heard
and experience other things. The indulgent priorities of COS are
making me very nervous: It pains me to get a letter from Tani when I
realize she hasn't figured out how to fuck yet. Er, I mean fight yet.
'Cause fighting in the 21st century is going to have a lot to do with
things like the INTERNET. Beating up this or that persyn, killing this
or that one--it ain't gonna cut it. We gotta have a massive
infrastructure, massive. We need the Turanian spirit FOR THAT. There
are already tons of lumpen who KNOW at a gut level to take out this or
that persyn. We don't lack in people who want to be the Red version of
Rambo. We lack the massive infrastructure behind the gutsy fighters.
