Thu, 21 Oct 93 21:11:06 PDT

****************
Thu, 21 Oct 93 21:11:06 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List
--------
There are spoilers. I hope this works for people :).

>My big question from the Last Dancer is exactly what happens when
>"Johnny Johnny" is trying to get back to Trent. We know JJ doesn't
>make it back. (Is he destroyed, or is he sitting around for a later
>book?) Does this mean that Trent is now "imageless" again, or was
>it just a (admittedly very important) copy that was lost?

It was just a copy. As for what happens to the Image sent out... well,
it *is* the Church of His Return. Want to bet that the message is
intercepted, and Trent is returned to life (as either an AI, or some
other mechanism)?

Sean.

****************
Fri, 22 Oct 93 07:13:19 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List
--------
Here are Last Dancer spoilers. I hope this works for people :).

Sean writes:
>Sol writes:
>>My big question from the Last Dancer is exactly what happens when
>>"Johnny Johnny" is trying to get back to Trent. We know JJ doesn't
>>make it back. (Is he destroyed, or is he sitting around for a later
>>book?) Does this mean that Trent is now "imageless" again, or was
>>it just a (admittedly very important) copy that was lost?
>
>It was just a copy.

That was my interpretation, too, but I've talked to people who
thought it was more than a copy. Do you have proof from the
text?

>As for what happens to the Image sent out... well,
>it *is* the Church of His Return. Want to bet that the message is
>intercepted, and Trent is returned to life (as either an AI, or some
>other mechanism)?

Heh. I don't take sucker bets. I still think he will come back
twice, like (shudder) Jesus.

-Sol

****************
Fri, 22 Oct 93 20:36:54 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: DKM Mailing List
--------
This is my rough draft intro. (Sorry, those of you who have already
seen this.) Comments would be appreciated.

Welcome to the Daniel Keys Moran mailing list! Despite the name, the
subject of conversation is all of the works of DKM.

How do you use the list?
To send mail to the entire list, send it to

[email protected]

When replying to a message from the list, you can either send the
reply to the entire list or to only the person who sent it. (How to
do each is dependent on your mailer, I think.) It is probably not a
good idea to send it to both the list and the original poster, as
the poster will typically then receive the message twice.

Administrative requests (such as asking to be dropped from the list)
should go to

[email protected]

Conventions:
This is a fledging mailing list, so we don't have any established
conventions yet. Please use standard e-mail quoting (and such) if
possible. I suggest the use of the following (rather natural)
abrevations, mostly because I am lazy, and hate spelling Armageddon:

DKM: Daniel Keys Moran
AB: Armageddon Blues
EE: Emerald Eyes
LR: The Long Run
LD: The Last Dancer

Any other suggestions?

Bibliography:
Here's what I know of Daniel Keys Moran's works:

story in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine (IAsfm), circa 1982.
This is an early version of the first section of AB.

very short story in IAsfm, circa 1983.
Not sure if this connects to anything else DKM has done; I didn't
find it particularly memorable.

"Realtime", IAsfm, August 1984. (Cowritten with Gladys Prebehalla.)
This is a sequel of sorts to AB. The main charcter is a
Praxcelis, and many of the cyberpunk terms and ideas later to
show up in the Continuing Time appear here. At least one
mention of the Walks-Far Empire. (See reference near the top of
the chart/map at the end of LD.)

Armageddon Blues, circa 1986 (?).
Indirectly related to the Continuing Time (again, see the
chart/map in LD), and an excellant book in its own right.

Emerald Eyes, 1988.

The Ring, circa 1988 (?).
Based on a movie script by somebody or the other; that, in turn,
was loosely based on the Ring of the Nibelung. Very loosely
connected to AB; the tribe (Silvereyes?) from there shows up.
Published only in hardcover.

The Long Run, 1989.

The Last Dancer, 1993.

Anyone know anything else? I also have the list of Continuing Time
stuff posted to Usenet last year; if anyone wants a copy, let me
know.

-Sol

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 02:03 EDT
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Wow.
--------
I just finished "The Last Dancer," and these are just my random
impressions... DKM has definitely come back from his hiatus with a bang.
Right now, I'd have to say that TLD is easily one of the best books of the
year, and probably makes my all-time Top Ten list. Was anyone else bored by
Dvan's Tale? I enjoyed it at times, but at others I was just begging for
DKM to GET ON WITH IT. As well, the ending left me a (tiny) bit
disappointed. Any reactions?

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 02:06 EDT
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List
--------
It seemed to me (after having just finished the book) that Trent was not
Imageless, but that the clone of JJ which had had the conversation with
Denice was temporarily lost. All that DKM says is that that copy of JJ is
trapped in a talk-to-me. Remember, Trent and JJ are one and the same, now
that Trent's got an inskin.

Josh

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 07:52:50 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
Josh Kaderlan writes:
>Was anyone else bored by Dvan's Tale? I enjoyed it at times, but at
>others I was just begging for DKM to GET ON WITH IT.

I've seen a couple of people say this, but must say that I loved it.
Those people were human, but their culture was completely alien, making
for fascinating reading. Plus learning more about the Zaradin.
(United Earth Intelligence, indeed!)

>As well, the ending left me a (tiny) bit disappointed. Any reactions?

I think this is one of the problems of writing a series of books. If you
don't leave some things dangling at the end, why write another book?
(Much less another thirty books.) All three Continuing Time books have
suffered from this, especially Emerald Eyes, which pretty much continued
ten pages or so past the end of the story.

Given that we had to leave lots of things hanging, I loved the end. To
have Denice declare killing is wrong, then dance, and then kill someone
nicely sums up Denice, and brings this round of changes in her life to
an end.

Which brings up a question of mine: Why is Denice the "Last Dancer"?
It seems reasonable to assume any of her descendents could also become
Dancers, yet no one we've seen mentioned from the future is one.
(Lots of nightfaces, though --- Camber, Ola Blue, Name Storyteller.)

-Sol

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 07:54:05 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent's "Image" (LD Spoilers)
--------
Josh Kaderlan writes:
>It seemed to me (after having just finished the book) that Trent was not
>Imageless, but that the clone of JJ which had had the conversation with
>Denice was temporarily lost.

Right; this was also my impression. (Well, I thought the clone was
destroyed.) However, when I talked to Bri (hey Bri, post something),
he said his impression was that the part of Trent that had been JJ was
destroyed. I got to thinking about it, re-read the section, and concluded
that my interpretation matched my thoughts about how things worked, but
the text itself supported Bri's theory as well as it did mine. Thus
my original question . . .

>All that DKM says is that that copy of JJ is trapped in a talk-to-me.
>Remember, Trent and JJ are one and the same, now that Trent's got an
>inskin.

Well, not exactly one and the same; after all Trent who was JJ says "I
am that part of Trent that used to be Johnny Johnny." More like two
parts that much up one whole, which is Trent the Uncatchable.

-Sol

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 16:18 EDT
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
>Which brings up a question of mine: Why is Denice the "Last Dancer"?
>It seems reasonable to assume any of her descendents could also become
>Dancers, yet no one we've seen mentioned from the future is one.
>(Lots of nightfaces, though --- Camber, Ola Blue, Name Storyteller.)

I'm not sure that Denice is the "Last Dancer" the title refers to. I think
it's more likely a reference to Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon; he's the last Dancer
Dvan has to kill (excepting, of course, Say, who he doesn't know about).
This brings up another point: who the hell are we supposed to support,
Camber or the Name Storyteller? Their whole conflict has gone way over my
head. And is the Name Storyteller really the god in the ten-sided temple?
I'm a little confused.

Josh

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 22:57:40 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Last Dancer (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
Josh Kaderlan writes:
>Sol writes:
>>Which brings up a question of mine: Why is Denice the "Last Dancer"?
>>It seems reasonable to assume any of her descendents could also become
>>Dancers, yet no one we've seen mentioned from the future is one.
>>(Lots of nightfaces, though --- Camber, Ola Blue, Name Storyteller.)
>
>I'm not sure that Denice is the "Last Dancer" the title refers to. I
>think it's more likely a reference to Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon; he's the last
>Dancer Dvan has to kill (excepting, of course, Say, who he doesn't know
>about).

Well, Denice is definitely a Dancer, and she definitely outlasts Sedon.
More to the point, the section of the book which is titled "The Last
Dancer" starts immediately after Sedon dies. Further, the book The Last
Dancer is definitely Denice's story. So I'm sure the "Last Dancer" is
Denice.

I just don't understand why she is the "last" one.

-Sol

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 22:57:47 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
Sean writes:
>Josh Kaderlan writes:
>>This brings up another point: who the hell are we supposed to support,
>>Camber or the Name Storyteller? Their whole conflict has gone way over my
>>head. And is the Name Storyteller really the god in the ten-sided temple?
>>I'm a little confused.
>
>Neither, and yes.
>
>To be precise, the two new gods are Camber and Storyteller. And we
>are not really supposed to support either, although I think Camber is
>probably the most "human." From _Emerald Eyes_' afterward:
>
> A trader, named Camber, circa 3,000 A.D., who found himself
> in over his head in a war with these really bad news demigods
> who were waging what they called the Time Wars;
>
>From various comments by Storyteller (who *is*, after all, telling the
>stories for all of the books so far), it appears that Camber is on the
>defensive, at least most of the time.

Actually, my assumption from this is that Camber will be the "hero"
somewhere down the line. There will be a point where "we are supposed
to support" him. (Note that Camber definitely sees himself as the hero,
while Name Storyteller seems more neutral; of course, that is a good
role for a storyteller.) This doesn't mean he will always be the hero,
or is one now.

>(Although it also appears as if Camber kills Storyteller, from a comment
>in _Emerald Eyes_.)

Hmmm . . . if you're thinking of the quote I'm thinking of, Storyteller
says that he does not know the outcome of the upcoming battle.

>The goals of the Time Wars appear to have been to eliminate the Envoy,
>but the best they were able to do was Chain him, and create the Great
>Wheel of Existance. (Incidently, this is the same Great Wheel that is
>in _The Armageddon Blues_, as the diagram at the end of _The Last
>Dancer_ indicates.)

I really want to know more about this. How is the "Walks-Far Empire"
connected to the Walks-Far character in AB? "Realtime" gives the
impression that the Walks-Far Empire has invaded the timestream of AB.
What are "Hawking's Page" and "The Sunset Strip"? I don't recall seeing
mention of these anywhere.

>On to other thoughts:
>
>Obodi's Name was Camber (aka the Nameless One; Camber's Name actually
>just appears to be an inarticulate scream of rage and pain), but one
>or both of them renounced the other. Denice now appears to have
>Camber as her Name, although I don't think she really understands
>that.

Maybe I missed something in LD. What exactly is the Name relationship?
My impression/guess had been that the Nameless One was Camber in a
latter stage of his life; you seem to be suggesting that his name is
Camber, but he has no Name?

>Also, note that there *is* a Man-Spacething war; this means that the
>human race does something no other race in the Continuing Time was able
>to do: defeat the Sleem. I really want to know *how* (but it takes
>place 11 years after the end of the third Trent book).

My guess is AI is involved. If I recall LD correctly, the implication
is made that the old human race is very unfamiliar with the idea of
intelligent machines; this suggests the Sleem might also lack AI. And
DKM's AIs work a lot faster than humans. This could be a big advantage
in war.

>Camber's ancestry: we know he is not descended from Denice. However,
>he does appear to be a telepath, although very different. My belief is
>that he is a descendant of Trent's (who is not a telepath because of a
>single gene).

This seems unlikely to me. For one thing, Camber mentions how his life
(or his ancestors'?) and the telepaths have touched many times. If he
is Trent's descendent, I would think that Storyteller's killing Trent
would be as destructive as Camber's killing Denice. Since Camber rules
the latter out, I suspect Storyteller would rule the former out. (Of
course, maybe the possiblity that Trent was an (the?) Envoy overrules
this consideration.)

Also, the idea of the god of a major religion having a kid running
around seems decidedly weird. (I suppose if no one knew it was
his . . .)

-Sol

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 20:30:30 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Last Dancer (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
>I just don't understand why she is the "last" one.

At the time of the ending of the novel, Denice *is* the last Dancer on
Earth. Given other statements, it's quite possible that she is the last
Dancer at *all*.

That is quite possibly what it means. However, it's also possible that
Denice doesn't pass on the teaching. I am not sure what is involved in
Dancing, but I think Denice's being a telepath, and her training by
Robert, are a large part of the reason. But remember that Robert was
training her to be a *nightface*, not a Dancer.

There's too much that is unexplained about Dancing the Flame to really
say anything about it.

Sean.

****************
Sat, 23 Oct 93 21:08:03 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
>I really want to know more about this. How is the "Walks-Far Empire"
>connected to the Walks-Far character in AB?

Oh, the Walks-Far tribe in that universe probably formed an empire.

>Maybe I missed something in LD. What exactly is the Name relationship?

It's not explained, but I suspect one's Name is the god one chooses, or
is chosen by. We only know a few of the Names: Storyteller, Historian,
Anarchist, and the Nameless One. We know all (or at least most) of
the others' *names*, but not their Names.

>My impression/guess had been that the Nameless One was Camber in a
>latter stage of his life; you seem to be suggesting that his name is
>Camber, but he has no Name?

No. His name is Camber Tremodian, and his Name is an inarticulate
scream of rage and pain. He is a very important figure in the
Continuing Time (the fact that he is one of the Zaradin gods was one
of the first clues :)), and there are four books devoted to him. Two
of the chapters in the first book have interesting titles: "The Darkness
Has a Name," and "The Hunted Man." So... something really *bad* happens
to Camber when he's young, and that's probably how he gets his Name.

>My guess is AI is involved. If I recall LD correctly, the implication
>is made that the old human race is very unfamiliar with the idea of
>intelligent machines; this suggests the Sleem might also lack AI. And
>DKM's AIs work a lot faster than humans. This could be a big advantage
>in war.

It could be. The telepaths are the ones I pegged to be important. But
just fast reactions aren't really going to help, given massive firepower.
Remember Obodi's comments about the sizes of the Sleem warships.

>This seems unlikely to me. For one thing, Camber mentions how his life
>(or his ancestors'?) and the telepaths have touched many times. If he
>is Trent's descendent, I would think that Storyteller's killing Trent
>would be as destructive as Camber's killing Denice. Since Camber rules
>the latter out, I suspect Storyteller would rule the former out. (Of
>course, maybe the possiblity that Trent was an (the?) Envoy overrules
>this consideration.)

No, you're right: Storyteller's killing Trent would wipe out Camber,
if Trent is one of Camber's ancestors. That would explain both Camber's
and Storyteller's comments that Camber had fixed things such that Trent
was safe from him, for at least a while. Just as Storyteller had to
protect Denice. Camber doesn't want to kill her, but he will, if
necessary; I suspect that would be dangerous, *because* of the fact that
his ancestors' and Denice's descendants' lives have touched many times.

>Also, the idea of the god of a major religion having a kid running
>around seems decidedly weird. (I suppose if no one knew it was
>his . . .)

Well, it doesn't become a major religion for a while, for one thing, and
Trent dies pretty soon. (I think during or after the AI wars.) And,
in any event, if Trent is one of Camber's ancestors, then Camber's a
god, also, so it works out okay...

Sean.

****************
Sun, 24 Oct 93 17:20:10 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Last Dancer (spoilers)
--------
Obviously I wasn't clear enough last post . . .

Sean writes:
>Sol writes:
>>I just don't understand why she is the "last" one.

>At the time of the ending of the novel, Denice *is* the last Dancer on
>Earth. Given other statements, it's quite possible that she is the last
>Dancer at *all*.

Well right. Actually, I greatly doubt that any other Dancer will follow
Denice, because Moran is precise in things like that. My question is
why does no other Dancer follow Denice?

>That is quite possibly what it means. However, it's also possible that
>Denice doesn't pass on the teaching.

Obviously she doesn't --- but why not? (Lack of time seems a good
answer --- is she going to survive the Trent duology?)

>I am not sure what is involved in
>Dancing, but I think Denice's being a telepath, and her training by
>Robert, are a large part of the reason. But remember that Robert was
>training her to be a *nightface*, not a Dancer.

We do know that there are are other telepathic nightfaces. (Name
Storyteller, at the very least.) Why do none of them become Dancers?

>There's too much that is unexplained about Dancing the Flame to really
>say anything about it.

There's too little information to say anything authoritative (unless you
are DKM). (I think --- I'm unwilling to say that I caught everything in
the Last Dancer, and I'm certainly not yet sure how it ties in with the
other two books.) But there's plenty of information to speculate from.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 93 23:13:32 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Favorite Book
--------
All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try
to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book?

My favorite (at the moment) is probably the Last Dancer. I've always
thought that the Long Run was kind of a lightweight book next to Emerald
Eyes, but with more polish; Last Dancer combines the polish with the
depth of Emerald Eyes.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 93 20:25:36 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
>All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try
>to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book?

Well, let's see... there are five of them. One of them, _The Ring_,
by DKM's own admission, isn't too good. The rest, I would rank as:
_The Long Run_, _The Armageddon Blues_, _The Last Dancer_, and _Emerald
Eyes_.

TLR was amusing, told a good story, and gave enough focus on a couple of
characters (most notably Trent) for me to think of them as real. TAB,
although his first (published) novel, had a lot of things going for it
that I found I enjoyed it far more on my second reading than my first,
and even more on my third. EE set up the stage for tLR and tLD, as well
as anything that follows it, and, in that sense, stands more as an
introductory novella than a novel. TLD... lacked Trent, largely. And
for some reason, I found Denice to be... distant. Not quite as understandable
as Trent.

I don't think tLR was "shallow" in comparison to EE. EE told a short
story, and introduced several rather important characters. The major thing
that happened in it was the destruction of the telepaths. In tLR, on
the other hand, we have Trent being formed into the person who will,
eventually, be considered God incarnate. He survived the ruination of
his life, the continual attack and persecution by the PKF, and the murder
of someone he grew close to. Along the way, he refined his belief that
killing is *ALWAYS WRONG* -- yet was accused of killing people over
and over again. His reaction to this was to make grandiose statements:
stealing the LINK, having Vance put a whole room of reporters to sleep,
"walking through Peaceforcer Heaven," etc.

I *understand* Trent. He is a person to me. I do not understand Denice,
not really. Admittedly, a lot of that is because she doesn't understand
herself, but a fair amount is because, despite the amount of coverage
she got in tLD, she did not get as much development as Trent had in tLR.

Sean.

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:36:56 -0400
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
I find THE LAST DANCER to be a nice opening for an Nology; as a stand
alone book it's too littered with unexplained fragments of Continuing
Time that distract me from things. I wouldn't mind if we had the
prospect of an explanation soon, but it seems likely to be ten years or
more before we'll have the background to really appreciate those bits.
I remember the same thing (but less of it) in EMERALD EYES, plus EE goes
by pretty fast; it sort of feels like a big book packed into a small one.
[I don't own a copy of EE, despite trying; anyone know if it's going to
be reprinted?]

Thus I wind up liking THE LONG RUN best, then probably ARMAGEDDON
BLUES, then THE LAST DANCER, then EMERALD EYES. The relative merits of
AB vs TLD are subject to change.

- cks

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:46:49 -0400 (EST)
****************

From: dark phoenix <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
On Tue, 26 Oct 1993 [email protected] wrote:

> Well, let's see... there are five of them. One of them, _The Ring_,
> by DKM's own admission, isn't too good. The rest, I would rank as:
> _The Long Run_, _The Armageddon Blues_, _The Last Dancer_, and _Emerald
> Eyes_.

Are _The Ring_ and _The Armageddon Blues_ part of the Continuing Time? (I
haven't read them yet.) I don't remember seeing them in DKM's posted
chronology.

******************************************************************************
Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT-A | [email protected]
(a.k.a Organic Lass of the LNH) | Silliman College, Yale University

"I'm sorry Mr. James, but you're WEIRD!!!"
- Probe
******************************************************************************

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 1993 23:57:38 -0400 (EDT)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (solomon foster)
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
Solomon Foster wrote:
> All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try
> to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book?
>
> My favorite (at the moment) is probably the Last Dancer. I've always
> thought that the Long Run was kind of a lightweight book next to Emerald
> Eyes, but with more polish; Last Dancer combines the polish with the
> depth of Emerald Eyes.
>
> -Sol

Having just finished TLD it's tempting to say it was my favourite, but
upon reflection I must honestly say that The Long Run tops my list, and
might just be my fave book period. Many of the reasons don't even
really have much to do with the story itself. I was in a bookstore
hunting for something new and different and was drawn by the Jim Burns
cover. I like Burns' work a lot. I read the back cover and the inner
"teaser" and my interest was piqued. At the time I didn't realize that
it was a part of a series. I had a hunch it might be, but couldn't find
any other DKM stuff so I just dove in. I couldn't put it down. Here
was the "cyberpunk" I was looking for. I must say that I really don't
like Gibson, at least not the style. Trent was the ideal hacker in the
ideal virtual reality for my liking, AND he wasn't just a hacker...
there character lived and breathed outside the Net. I really liked the
fact that all of the characters I encountered were multi-faceted and
that they were developed to a degree that few authors bother with. I
also liked that as I read on and questions got answered, new questions
were raised. I hate to be taken by the hand and shown all the answers.
I like to THINK about things occasionally. =) I spent a year and a half
tracking down Emerald Eyes and The Armageddon Blues. I still haven't
found The Ring. In the time it took to find EE and TAB I reread TLR
several times and almost always found something new, even if it was just
a new way of looking at a character or scene. With time TLD may take on
this quality as well, as I am SURE there are things I missed or
overlooked. For now TLR (which I am reading AGAIN) takes the prize.

--
Ender
================================================-=============================
Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
================================================-=============================

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 93 21:02:20 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
>Are _The Ring_ and _The Armageddon Blues_ part of the Continuing Time? (I
>haven't read them yet.) I don't remember seeing them in DKM's posted
>chronology.

_The Ring_ is an adaptation of a Canadian made-for-tv movie.
Approximately half of the book is based on the show, the other half is
DKM. Interestingly enough, when I was in email contact with DKM, I told
him that I enjoyed the first half of the book, but thought the second
half kinda fell through -- and his response was that the first half was
background, his own invention, but the second half was from the script.
So it supported my opinion about him as a writer.

Anyway: tR is not part of the Continuing Time, except for one small
thing (there are some Silver Eyes in it, but they're male, if I remember
correctly, and acting as bodyguards. Yeah, right).

TAB isn't a part of the Continuing Time either. However, the Continuing
Time stories take place in the same ... background as tAB. That is,
the Great Wheel of Existance (mentioned in tAB, and in tLD for the first
time in the CT series) is the background for everything but tR (and,
as I said, even that could be put in there because of the Silver Eyes).
If you look in the back of tLD, you'll see the Great Wheel mapped out.

Sean.

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:05:16 -0400 (EDT)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (the continuing time mailing list)
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
Apologies to Solomon, who is seeing this for the second time. I
accidentally sent it only to him. What can I say... it's midnight. I
also noticed upon reading the thread further that folks were ranking all
the books, so here's my shot at it, excepting The Ring, which I haven't
read.

The Long Run
The Last Dancer
Emerald Eyes
The Armageddon Blues

One small note: I've read TLR more than any of the others, more than the
rest combined actually. I just finished TLD. It's been ages since I read EE
or TAB. Thus, the entire list is subject to change.

> Solomon Foster wrote:
> > All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try
> > to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book?
> >
> > My favorite (at the moment) is probably the Last Dancer. I've always
> > thought that the Long Run was kind of a lightweight book next to Emerald
> > Eyes, but with more polish; Last Dancer combines the polish with the
> > depth of Emerald Eyes.
> >
> > -Sol
>
> Having just finished TLD it's tempting to say it was my favourite, but upon
> reflection I must honestly say that The Long Run tops my list, and might just
> be my fave book period. Many of the reasons don't even really have much to
> do with the story itself. I was in a bookstore hunting for something new and
> different and was drawn by the Jim Burns cover. I like Burns' work a lot. I
> read the back cover and the inner "teaser" and my interest was piqued. At
> the time I didn't realize that it was a part of a series. I had a hunch it
> might be, but couldn't find any other DKM stuff so I just dove in. I
> couldn't put it down. Here was the "cyberpunk" I was looking for. I must
> say that I really don't like Gibson, at least not the style. Trent was the
> ideal hacker in the ideal virtual reality for my liking, AND he wasn't just a
> hacker... there character lived and breathed outside the Net. I really
> liked the fact that all of the characters I encountered were multi-faceted
> and that they were developed to a degree that few authors bother with. I
> also liked that as I read on and questions got answered, new questions were
> raised. I hate to be taken by the hand and shown all the answers. I like to
> THINK about things occasionally. =) I spent a year and a half tracking down
> Emerald Eyes and The Armageddon Blues. I still haven't found The Ring. In
> the time it took to find EE and TAB I reread TLR several times and almost
> always found something new, even if it was just a new way of looking at a
> character or scene. With time TLD may take on this quality as well, as I am
> SURE there are things I missed or overlooked. For now TLR (which I am
> reading AGAIN) takes the prize.
>
> --
> Ender
> ================================================-=============================
> Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
> UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
> ================================================-=============================

Ender

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 00:49 EDT
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
>All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try
>to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book?

Unfortunately, I haven't read either *The Ring* or *The Armageddon Blues*,
and it's been quite a while since *Emerald Eyes*. I do remember liking EE
quite a bit when I read it, but I don't remember specifics. I'd have to
rank tLR as the best of the three, but the other two are tied in my book.
EE really set the stage well, and Carl Castanaveras was a more interesting
protagonist than Denice. Denice was just too bland for my taste. She also
doesn't seem to believe in anything; she enjoys killing the people in Los
Angeles but won't eat meat, and justifies it by saying that life is full of
contradictions. That's a cop-out. What it means to me is that she's
unwilling to really take a stand, as opposed to Carl or even Trent. Trent
at least separates killing sentients from no-sentients. As well, Carl seems
more human; he has rages, while Denice has far too much self-control for my
liking. I also didn't have the visceral dislike throughout the book for
Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon as I did for the villains in both tLR and EE. Just my
11 francs.

Josh

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:33:18 -500 (EDT)
****************

From: michael burrage <[email protected]>
To: dkm mailing list <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
On Tue, 26 Oct 1993 [email protected] wrote:
>
> Well, let's see... there are five of them. One of them, _The Ring_,
> by DKM's own admission, isn't too good. The rest, I would rank as:
> _The Long Run_, _The Armageddon Blues_, _The Last Dancer_, and _Emerald
> Eyes_.
>
> TAB, although his first (published) novel, had a lot of things going
> for it that I found I enjoyed it far more on my second reading than my first,
> and even more on my third. EE set up the stage for tLR and tLD, as well
> as anything that follows it, and, in that sense, stands more as an
> introductory novella than a novel. TLD... lacked Trent, largely. And
> for some reason, I found Denice to be... distant. Not quite as understandable
> as Trent.
>

Well, I have yet to read AB or Ring (can't get a copy of AB, still
waiting for Ring from WaldenBooks), but of the Con Time novels I would
rank them: first EE, second LD, third LR. I really like the way DKM told
the history of the UN takeover interwoven with the current events. I also
liked the almost inevitable chain of events as all of the players in the
story interacted with each other. Of course my preferance could be
influenced by the fact that EE was the introduction to my favorite SF
setting. The LD and LR are both a very close second and third, with the
deciding differance being that I prefer Denice to Trent although not by much.

On another note, I have not had the time yet to reread LD and am a
little fuzzy on the great wheel. What are your interpretations of it and
how does it link the ConTime with AB (which I have not read). Does AB
have more about the wheel, and why was LD advertised as the fourth ConTime
novel (implying that AB was the first?).

=======================================
Michael J. Burrage
([email protected])
([email protected])
_____..---========+*+==========---.._____
______________________ __,-='=====____ =================== _____=====`=
(._____________________I__) - _-=_/ `---------=+=--------'
/ /__...---===='---+---_'
`------'---.___ - _ = _.-'
`--------'

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 00:49 EDT
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
>All right, as the last small conversation seems to have died, let's try
>to get another one going. What is everyone's favorite DKM book?

Unfortunately, I haven't read either *The Ring* or *The Armageddon Blues*,
and it's been quite a while since *Emerald Eyes*. I do remember liking EE
quite a bit when I read it, but I don't remember specifics. I'd have to
rank tLR as the best of the three, but the other two are tied in my book.
EE really set the stage well, and Carl Castanaveras was a more interesting
protagonist than Denice. Denice was just too bland for my taste. She also
doesn't seem to believe in anything; she enjoys killing the people in Los
Angeles but won't eat meat, and justifies it by saying that life is full of
contradictions. That's a cop-out. What it means to me is that she's
unwilling to really take a stand, as opposed to Carl or even Trent. Trent
at least separates killing sentients from no-sentients. As well, Carl seems
more human; he has rages, while Denice has far too much self-control for my
liking. I also didn't have the visceral dislike throughout the book for
Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon as I did for the villains in both tLR and EE. Just my
..11 francs.

Josh

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 93 22:02:29 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
> On another note, I have not had the time yet to reread LD and am a
>little fuzzy on the great wheel. What are your interpretations of it and
>how does it link the ConTime with AB (which I have not read). Does AB
>have more about the wheel, and why was LD advertised as the fourth ConTime
>novel (implying that AB was the first?).

Okay. As explained in tLD, the Serathin bound the Envoy; in doing so, the
Great Wheel of Existance was created, binding the Serathin to it (and I
think to this universe).

Combinging tAB and tLD, it seems each of the "universes" is a different
"spoke" (each with a different chaos/order combination, or something
like that); half of the universes are anti-matter, half are matter.

The Serathin are Chaos. The Envoy is Order.

The Continuing Time takes place entirely in one universe; we only start
to care about the Great Wheel of Existance whenever the Serathin show
up, and starting at about 10,400AD. A long, long time from now; it
might be that year when the books about that time are actually
published :).

Oh, and who said tLD was the fourth Continuing Time novel? It doesn't
say so on the book; I suspect that someone was just confused. It is
the fourth novel in the Great Wheel of Existance series, but, as I said,
that is the background for the CT series, and not terribly important.
(Except for the fact that the Serathin are hopefully more godlike than
Storyteller or Camber... the latter two seem to be human, but the
Serathin existed before this universe. Before the GWoE, in fact. Scary.)

Sean.

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 01:07:52 -0400
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
| I also didn't have the visceral dislike throughout the book for
| Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon as I did for the villains in both tLR and EE.

Is Sedon a villain? I don't know; I don't think it's at all clear. We
see too little of his actions to tell; he does some villainous things,
but so do other people in the book (including, one could argue,
Denice).

- cks

****************
Tue, 26 Oct 93 22:15:19 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
> Is Sedon a villain? I don't know; I don't think it's at all clear. We
>see too little of his actions to tell; he does some villainous things,
>but so do other people in the book (including, one could argue,
>Denice).

Indeed. In fact, I'd have to say that Obodi probably had a better goal
than Dvan: Obodi was thinking about the Sleem, and how to deal with them.
I'd wager that everything he did was to that end. The problem is that
the resulting cultre probably would not have been *ours*, and, therefore,
he couldn't win :).

I don't know if Dvan would have done anything about them. He never really
seemed to set himself up as a leader, and he didn't seem to have the
charisma that Obodi had, so I don't think he really could have.

But, no, Obodi wasn't really a villain. In fact, I might be so bold as
to say that there were *no* villains in _The Last Dancer_: everyone was
doing the right thing, given their point of view. This was not the case
in _Emerald Eyes_, and not quite in _The Long Run_; in the first, Carlson
was insane, and the entire PKF wanted to enslave the telepaths. That
is not a good thing, and they would have agreed -- if they weren't blinded
by their own greed for power to keep their own power. In tLR, Emille
was wrong to begin with, and everything went on from there. And Vance has
obsessed on Trent, and has, at times, forgotten that he is supposed to
keep the peace -- not blow up space stations trying to capture a single
thief (even if the thief *is* God). Most of the time, however, Vance is
a brilliant strategist, and is trying to keep the peace and protecting
Earth.

Sean.

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 13:07:09 EDT
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Favorite Book
--------
Just to toss in my 2 cents: I agree with Ender:
Long Run
Last Dancer
Emerald Eyes
Armageddon Blues

I was rather bummed that Dvan seemed to come out the clear loser in LD
as compared to Sedon - Dvan could be said to have lost just as much of
life, while experiencing a WHOLE LOT more pain than his enemy Sedon.
Of course, Sedon died and we don't know if Dvan did...

(:
SMILE!
Wesley

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 14:51:13 -0400
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
>it's more likely a reference to Gi'Suei'Obodi'Sedon; he's the last Dancer
>Dvan has to kill (excepting, of course, Say, who he doesn't know about).

Say is not a dancer. she is one of the engineers or whoever who was
exiled along with the dancers. there may well be more of them...

mike

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:03:35 -0400
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wow. (Minor LD Spoilers)
--------
Say is female, so I assume she was a breeder; the Flame People's women
seemed to be either Keepers of the Flame (nonexistant among the exiles)
or breeders. She has no doubt learned a lot since the exile, of course.

- cks

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 16:26:02 EDT
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: how to get...
--------
> ...books would go back in print. but from what i gather,
> AB is not.
Does that imply that the others will be?

(:
Wesley

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 16:27:55 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List
--------
>I never tried it either. The address I have (presumably the same as yours):
>
>[email protected]

Anyone know if this is still a valid address for DKM? I've
tried the (meager) tricks I know for verifying addresses, with
no luck.

-Sol

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 18:42:27 -0400
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: how to get...
--------
i believe they are in print.

mike

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 17:04:47 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: how to get...
--------
To the best of my knowledge, the only DKM book in print right now
is _The Last Dancer_. If the others were in print, the bookstore
I frequent would have gotten them.

Sean.

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 17:20:38 -0700
****************

From: [email protected] ("rebecca leann smit crowley")
To: [email protected]
Subject: DKM books in print
--------
A call to university book store in Seattle, WA reveals that
*everything* is in print, and I ordered the lot (as my
copies were all purchased used), including _The Ring_
(but not _The Last Dancer_, as I already have a new copy).
I suspect that copy of the ring will never appear, as no
price is listed next to it, it may not be "in print" but
only in insubstantial, semi-mythical stock in some
unknown warehouse which also contains the lost Ark, and
probably bones from random saints and apostles as well.

Yippee!

Rebecca Crowley
standard disclaimers apply
[email protected]

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:06:35 -500 (EDT)
****************

From: michael burrage <[email protected]>
To: dkm mailing list <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: DKM books in print
--------
On Wed, 27 Oct 1993, Rebecca Leann Smit Crowley wrote:
>
> A call to university book store in Seattle, WA reveals that
> *everything* is in print, and I ordered the lot (as my
> copies were all purchased used), including _The Ring_
> (but not _The Last Dancer_, as I already have a new copy).
> I suspect that copy of the ring will never appear, as no
> price is listed next to it, it may not be "in print" but
>
I recently checked Books In Print myself and according to that
source all of DKM's stuff is still in print, but when I called the
publisher I was told that the books were just recently out of print.
Rebecca, If you do get the books let us know. I suppose that the
publisher could have been just out of stock.
Also Waldonbooks told me that all except of course LD were out of
print but they could still get a copy of Ring (in a trade-paper printing I
believe) I am still waiting on that book.
Sorry if I am the bearer of bad news, I hope I am not.

=======================================
Michael J. Burrage
([email protected])
([email protected])
_____..---========+*+==========---.._____
______________________ __,-='=====____ =================== _____=====`=
(._____________________I__) - _-=_/ `---------=+=--------'
/ /__...---===='---+---_'
`------'---.___ - _ = _.-'
`--------'

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:40:45 -0400
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: how to get...
--------
i think EE and TLR are in print, but the big
book distributers are not buying them, thus
most bookstores (both big chains and independents)
can't get them. if you want them, try ordering
direct from bantam. they have an 800 number
that i don't have right here. let us know if
you are sucessful.

mike

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:20:05 -0400
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: how to get AB
--------
i was hoping that with the release of LD, DKM's other
books would go back in print. but from what i gather,
AB is not. if anyone has an extra copy to sell, i'm
a buyer.

mike

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 93 15:04:25 EDT
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected] ("rebecca leann smit crowley")
Subject: Re: DKM books in print
--------
I'd be interested in the number of that "university book store" in Seattle, WA,
because the news is:
1) Bantam's order number is 1-800-223-5780, and push for "non-account number sales"
2) EE and LR are out of print and unorderable from them.

Sigh...

(:
Wesley

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 1993 16:34:12 -0400
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: DKM books in print
--------
i tried the 800 number to order AB. they transferred me
to another number which handles direct sales to
individuals. (fyi the direct number is 212-354-6500
extension 29479). the result: AB is out of print.

i think bantam is doing dkm (and themselves) a diservice
by not bringing his other books back into print, now that
TLD is out. my advice is to innudate them with calls
and letters attempting to buy these books. maybe they
will get the message...

my other advice (to dkm) is to find a new publisher.

mike

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 93 17:47:42 EDT
****************

From: john bykowski <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject:
--------
I think the best way to pick up DKM's work is in a used bookstore. It
took me some time, but I now have AB, EE, and 2 copies of LR, all picked
up in used bookstores. Not true - I forgot that one of the copies was
picked up in a bookstore that catered to women's romances. No SF fan
would frequent the store , because all it had were some few, ancient
softcovers that nobody ever wanted - like two copies of LR, one of which I
gave to a friend. Since then I have seen LR a few times, but EE only the
once - and I thank Sol for letting me take it instead of him. (He spotted
it, but he knew I didn't have a copy.)

I don't believe that Dvan has been killed off - he seems to be set up
for another centuries-long amnesia attack. I can't wait for the AI War to
come out - Trent is my favorite of the main characters. It just seems
that Denice is lacking something.

I also think that Moran should cut down on the song quotes. Either he's
not a good lyricist, or Kutura's not all she's cracked up to be. The
songs seem so simplistic and juvenile.
Also - a mere 80 or so years into the future, and DKM thinks no one will
remember what an electric guitar looks like, and doesn't know who the
Beatles are? C'mon. It's more likely that they would know the songs and
have to be reminded of the ban, but no knowledge? We're still whistling
Greensleeves even though we've forgotten the writer. I'm sure that's
mainly due to the lack of recorded media at the time.

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 93 18:23:13 -0500
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fave books
--------
(Ouch! Okay, Okay, Sol, I'll post already!)

(Spoiler alert -- does it matter?)

I've been doing the silent obsever thing for a bit, and this seems about as
easy a question to answer as any. So here's my rank list:

The Long Run *These two ranks await rereadings.
Emerald Eyes
*The Armageddon Blues
*The Last Dancer

#The Ring # I have not read this book

The Long Run has earned itself a place in my patented Brownian Motion Top
Ten List. (That's my list of general faves, the members of which are often
known to flip rankings but rarely actually leave the list. It's dominated by
three authors, all three the best yarn-spinners I have ever read, bar none.
Zelazny [I tend to count Amber as two LARGE novels], Brust, and Moran for the
curious) Every time I go back and re-read the durn thing it gets harder and
harder to put down, and it is one of those books I keep finding obscure (and
not-nearly-as-obscure) references to present culture. Only Zelazny and Brust
are able to do that to the same degree, and it blows me away.

Emerald Eyes, while very well described as an introductory novella,
introduced so many bloody interesting characters in the midst of a riveting
future history ( to the point of inducing mild francophbia [or is that
frogophobia? What IS the word for that, anyway? }> ), that it gets my number
two rank. Carl was interesting and human enough that I could identify with him.
Same with Jany McConnell, Shana DeNostri, and the late, lamented Chris Summers
(my first beef with DKM. Summers was FAR too valuable a monkey wrench to expend
on something like an abortive Second American Revolution. Poop. However, he
DID "survive" his first ballistic descent...)

Armageddon Blues gets the three spot for similar reasons. The characters
were all interesting, particularly Georges (pseudo-frog or not). I definitely
need a copy of this book that I might re-read it, however. Sigh. Actually, out
of all DKM's books printed to date, AB has the most potential for a crossover
invasion into the Continuing Time. I like that.

Ah, yes. The Last Dancer. Well, I suspect I will appreciate all the
epithetted background on Gi'Suei Sedon and Gi'Tbad Dvan (I'm rather fond of
pronouning the family name as "GittBad" as opposed to the described "JeetBahd".
Sounds more my speed. [GittBad -- GittBad -- GittBad to where you once bel--
Oh, sorry] and all the rest of the Happy Match-Light Brigade later on in the
series (probably after another 300-600 years CT time), but it felt like I was
trying to read The Silmarillion again (I never HAVE managed to finish that book.
Plod, plod, plod!). It was just too much, and I had really been looking forward
to emphasis on the DKM "present", as was done in tLR. Plus, I join the
consensus on Denice. Acts like she took a bath in the Fount of Power at the
Keep of the Four Worlds (sorry, Sol. My head's stuck in Amber). That is to
say, she lacks humanity and a certain kind of integrity, somehow. Trent is
always Trent, and identifiably so, regardless of biosculpt, location,
circumstance, or what-have-you. Trent has a personality that is unmistakably
his and his alone within the series. Denice acts more like a supporting
castmember, along the lines of Booker Jamethon and Max Devlin -- always waffling
and kinda-sorta doing this and kinda-sorta killing that, but never really
crystallizing as a person, even (or perhaps especially) when she blows David
away at the end. Thhbphthbthpht. He escapes the nuking, survives the Fringe,
pulls something of a fast one on Sedon to get offed by Denice? I wasn't even
really surprised (and no, that's not your fault, Sol!). Mohammed Vance is by
far more interesting than Denice. Maybe DKM should write one from his point of
view.

"PeaceKeeper: How to Kill... well, Anyone You Just Plain Don't Like" by M.
Vance

My goodness, that's a long one. Well, until next time...

Squilchgmp!

Brian Wells

****************
Thu, 28 Oct 93 23:08:53 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: next debate
--------
This is from _The Long Run_, chapter six of ``The Last Summer of His
Youth'':

``They come down out of the mountains, to where the circle of his fire
is burning against the night.'' She was silent for a moment, still and
motionless, then went on dreamily. ``And, you see the young man he
*speaks* to them then, at the food of the mountains while the living
diamonds hunt them in the darkness, and tells them that the old
promises will be fulfilled, the old dreams realized, the old wrongs
made right. And then, *together*,'' Denice Castanaveras said,
speaking directly to Jimmy Ramirez, who sat frozen, utterly
transfixed, ``together they march back through the Traveling Waters,
and go back together to the city on the hill and drive out the
enemy.''
[...]
[Trent asked,] ``Where are we?''

``Watching. Watching the fire,'' she said softly, ``burning out.
They forgot to bank Tyrel's fire when they all left together. It
flickers and then the cold kills it, and all that's left is the --
darkness.''

[end quote]

So, any ideas on what that was all about? She acted the same way Carl
did when he had a glimpse of the future, although she was considerably
more vocal. After reading _The Last Dancer_, I'm almost tempted to
think it was something from then... but the reference to `the
Traveling Waters' makes me think of Walks Far (`Traveling Waters'
sounds like a "typically" indian name, and the one Walks Far we've
seen was an indian...).

Sean.

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 93 10:24:01 -0700
****************

From: [email protected] ("rebecca leann smit crowley")
To: [email protected]
Subject: not knowing who the Beatles were
--------
This actually isn't *that* weird. I have vivid memories of a
discussion with a reasonably bright friend of mine about what
our favorite music was. I said I still really liked Elvis, and
she said, "Who?". Granted, it wouldn't happen now (not with
all the Elvis sightings and all ;), but at the time, it was a
helluva shock. She really had no idea who Elvis Presley was.

Even weirder was the time I was in the car with my mother
(a fan of Frank Sinatra and co. from when she was young) and
"I wanna hold your hand" came on the radio. It ended, and
some Pink Floyd song (from the Wall, but I don't recall which
one) started. She said, "The music your generation listens
to is really stupid". Somewhat disoriented, I cautiously
asked to which song she referred -- this one or the previous.
She said, "This is fine -- but the other one was really dumb."
I then informed her (okay, I shouldn't have laughed so hard)
that it was more *her* generation (she graduated high school
in 1958) than mine that was responsible for the popularity
of the Beatles.

Point being, she didn't recognize the song.

Does everyone on the list know what a ukelele is? They
used to be used quite a lot in popular music. If anyone
here *doesn't* know what one is, then it's reasonable characters
in DKM books wouldn't recognize an electric guitar.

Rebecca Crowley
[email protected]
standard disclaimers apply

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 93 14:21:40 EDT
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Miscellaneous Question
--------
Is there a connection and/or meaning between
Moran's "Serathin" and Edgar Poe's "Seraphim" in the Raven?
Is this a coincidence or are they both references to
some historical/mythical element?

(:
Wesley

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 93 11:26:52 -0700
****************

From: [email protected] ("rebecca leann smit crowley")
To: [email protected]
Subject: serathin/seraphim
--------
Dunno about Serathin. You do know Seraphim are a type of
angel (class? level?) in a lot of xtian metaphysical systems?
(Others which spring to mine, scattered across denominations:
thrones, cherubim, archangels. . .).

Rebecca

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 93 11:45:25 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Question
--------
>Is there a connection and/or meaning between
>Moran's "Serathin" and Edgar Poe's "Seraphim" in the Raven?
>Is this a coincidence or are they both references to
>some historical/mythical element?

Well... it's *possible* that (in DKM's universe) "seraphim" come from
"serathin," but that's really unlikely, given that everyone refers to them
as "Zaradin."

Note that "seraphim" is the plural of "seraph." Also note that the Zaradin
are reptilian, and, therefore, *must* hiss a lot, hence, "Sseraseen" (or
roughly like that, changed to voiced 's' at the beginning, and a voiced
glottal or stop near the end). (And the part about "*must* hiss" is
sarcasm... terran reptiles hiss because they have no vocal chords.)

Sean.

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 93 13:14:33 EDT
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], john bykowski <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Songwriting
--------
I agree that M. is too interested in his songs;
however I do believe that the characters in the book that seem
deficient in "song knowledge" are legitimately so. Beatles?
Who cares after the life they grew up in (some not even in America/Britain).
(and who is green/whatever anyway?)

(:
SMILE!
Wesley

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 93 15:51:52 EDT
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: not knowing who the Beatles were
--------
Rebecca Crowley writes:
>This actually isn't *that* weird. I have vivid memories of a
>discussion with a reasonably bright friend of mine about what
>our favorite music was. I said I still really liked Elvis, and
>she said, "Who?". Granted, it wouldn't happen now (not with
>all the Elvis sightings and all ;), but at the time, it was a
>helluva shock. She really had no idea who Elvis Presley was.

Or go back before Elvis. One of my (older) friends and my mother
instantly recognized the name of some singer or the other from
the big band era. Yet I, probably in the top .1% of big band
fans from my generation, didn't have a clue who they were talking
about. Add another eighty years to this and you have the Beatles
wrt 2076. (How many bands could you name from the 1880's?)

>Does everyone on the list know what a ukelele is?

Sure, Queen was using them in concert as recently as 1975 or so.
(Just wondering if the Queen/Daniel Keys Moran connection was
unique to the University of Michigan.)

>They
>used to be used quite a lot in popular music. If anyone
>here *doesn't* know what one is, then it's reasonable characters
>in DKM books wouldn't recognize an electric guitar.

Also note that French culture is dominant in the books.

-Sol

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 1993 13:41:15 PDT
****************

From: "john c. wenn" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Question
--------
Well, in classic medieval theology, seraphim are the highest order
of angels. They rank (from highest to lowest) seraphim,
cherubim, thrones, dominations, virtues, powers, principalities,
archangels and angels. So the hight muchky-mucks of angels
(Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel) would all be seraphim.

I don't know what this has to do with DKM, though.

/John

****************
Fri, 29 Oct 1993 14:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU
****************

From: [email protected] (dann cutter)
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Ring...
--------
Well, I tried to order it through Waldenbooks. It is officially out of
print as are the rest of his books. Only Last Dancer is availible to be
ordered. I bought the copies they had there and they don't seem to be
getting new ones in. Humm. I hope it sells well enough for bantam to go
another round. Anyways, there is a service which searches for used
books which I am going to try. I'll let you all know what happens. :-)
Hey, actually it was really easy I just called them. The number is
1-516-734-5650.... its called Peter Hennessey Booksellers. Try it.
Hopefully they'll find me a copy. :-) I remember when the copies were
everywhere. Then again, when i talked to DkM about it, he told me he
wasn't to sad that I couldn't find it, and that he wouldn't help...
unless he gets to rewrite it later! :-)

_______________________________________________________________
Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises=81 / [email protected]

****************
Wed, 27 Oct 93 13:30:48 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: DKM Mailing List
--------
>>[email protected]

There was also [email protected].

>Anyone know if this is still a valid address for DKM? I've
>tried the (meager) tricks I know for verifying addresses, with
>no luck.

To the best of my knowledge, these are no longer valid, as he is not
logging into them anymore. I asked the admin of batpad (I think it was),
and was told that he hadn't logged in since april or something like that.

To send him real mail,

Daniel Keys Moran
P.O. Box 667
Van Nuys, CA 91408

might still work.

sean.

****************
Sat, 30 Oct 1993 19:19:08 -0700 (PDT)
****************

From: simon cardinale <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Ring..
--------
Dark Carnival in Berkeley had 2 copies of the Ring but I bought them
yesterday.... I also found (there) a copy of Armageddon Blues.
PermaBound (i.e. hardcover, but paperback sized.) Signed.

They still have two copies of the Long Run if anyone needs one...
510-845-7757 is the number. I don't know if they do mail order, but I
would be willing to pick it up for someone and ship it.

****************
Sat, 30 Oct 93 19:50:17 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: complaint about tLD
--------
One of the few serious complaints I have about DKM, actually. Despite
normally doing a fair amount of research about stuff he uses, he has
Denice claim that Wicca is a younger religion than christianity.

Wicca is based on paganism, and both are at least seven or eight thousand
years old. Compared to christianity's ~2000, and judaism's ~6000.

*grr* (Made worse because of all the really insulting programs about
witches on the telly and silver screen this time of year. *grrr*)

Sean.

****************
Sat, 30 Oct 93 22:57:47 CDT
****************

From: [email protected] (erich schneider)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: complaint about tLD
--------
[email protected] says:

>One of the few serious complaints I have about DKM, actually. Despite
>normally doing a fair amount of research about stuff he uses, he has
>Denice claim that Wicca is a younger religion than christianity.

>Wicca is based on paganism, and both are at least seven or eight thousand
>years old. Compared to christianity's ~2000, and judaism's ~6000.

I don't want to start a flamewar, and I respect everyone's religion.
However...

You say "based on paganism". First off, Christianity is "based on"
Judaism. Why aren't you then pushing for Christianity being 6000 years
old? Buddhism is likewise "based on" Hinduism to a great extent (at
least cosmologically), but is at least 1000 years younger than
Hinduism as we know it (and probably several thousand years younger in
general).

Also, Marija Gimbutas aside, it's foolish to say that organized Wicca
as we know it today goes back further than this century. Sure, there
were and always have been nature-venerating religions, but Wicca owes
as much to them as it does to Aleister Crowley (whose "Do what thou
wilt shall be the whole of the law" sounds suspiciously similar to
Gardner's "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" - and is almost
identical in meaning if you know the definition of Will Crowley is
using). There are plenty of people with "grandmother stories", but
most Wiccans today practice a religion descended from Gerald Gardner
or one of his associates.

I suggest you check out Aidan Kelly's _Crafting the Art of Magic_, a
fine textual analysis of Gardnerian Wicca materials.

-Erich Schneider
[email protected]

****************
Sat, 30 Oct 93 21:08:38 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: complaint about tLD
--------
>You say "based on paganism". First off, Christianity is "based on"
>Judaism. Why aren't you then pushing for Christianity being 6000 years
>old?

Actually, normally I do. I just assumed that everyone knew that christianity
was an offshoot of judaism :).

>Also, Marija Gimbutas aside, it's foolish to say that organized Wicca
>as we know it today goes back further than this century.

Now, this is one argument I can agree with. But another way of looking
at it is that the current witches are just a recent resurgeance, or
another branch of the main one. And most witches I know are *PROUD*
of the fact that the religion is quite old. Now, most of the background
they choose is based on the European pagans, most notably the celts
(who, themselves, were merely practicing something that was already
old by their time).

My point is that the witches of Goddess Home almost certainly would have
chosen to claim as much heritage as possible, just as many current witches
and pagans do. And their heritage, and the age of their religion, is
a bit older than both christianity and judaism.

And, to be honest, I'd say that voudoun is the closest to what everyone in
the Continuing Time *should* be practicing, because of the bargaining
nature with the gods that both have.

Sean.

****************
Sat, 30 Oct 93 23:19:27 CDT
****************

From: [email protected] (erich schneider)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: complaint about tLD
--------
From: [email protected]

>>From Erich Schneider ([email protected])

>>Also, Marija Gimbutas aside, it's foolish to say that organized Wicca
>>as we know it today goes back further than this century.
>
>Now, this is one argument I can agree with. But another way of looking
>at it is that the current witches are just a recent resurgeance, or
>another branch of the main one. And most witches I know are *PROUD*
>of the fact that the religion is quite old.

But they don't really have much to stand on, besides some vague
musings about the[ao]logical concepts these old Europeans might have
had, and the use of some old names. They certainly have no way of
determining how similar the ritual forms may have been, for example.
(Whereas certain strands of Hinduism still use some of the Vedic
hymns, which are demonstrably thousands of years old, because they
were written down that long ago.) And if they say "but the spirit's
the same", well, many religions share no "genetic relationship" but
have a similar "spirit".

>My point is that the witches of Goddess Home almost certainly would have
>chosen to claim as much heritage as possible, just as many current witches
>and pagans do. And their heritage, and the age of their religion, is
>a bit older than both christianity and judaism.

Ah, a chance to swing this back to DKM. We never hear any Goddess Home
Wiccans talking about Wicca that much. Would _Denice_, who makes the
statement about Wicca's relative youth, make these claims of heritage?
I doubt it very much; she was quite the "cafe Wiccan", I recall.

I certainly want to learn a lot more about the Temple of Eris. We know
it borrows quite a bit from Christianity (from _TLR_). However, does
it take anything from that modern "religion disguised as a joke
disguised as a religion", Discordianism? I don't recall any references
to golden apples ...

Erich Schneider
[email protected]

****************
Sat, 30 Oct 93 21:25:53 PDT
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: complaint about tLD
--------
>Ah, a chance to swing this back to DKM. We never hear any Goddess Home
>Wiccans talking about Wicca that much. Would _Denice_, who makes the
>statement about Wicca's relative youth, make these claims of heritage?

The fact that she said it says that GH *didn't* make that claim, which
I find suspicious.

>I certainly want to learn a lot more about the Temple of Eris.

I want to learn more about the Prophet Harry, myself.

Sean.

****************
Sun, 31 Oct 93 01:22 EDT
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: complaint about tLD
--------
>One of the few serious complaints I have about DKM, actually. Despite
>normally doing a fair amount of research about stuff he uses, he has
>Denice claim that Wicca is a younger religion than christianity.

Yeah, but at the end he states that May founded the worship of the Goddess
(which I took to mean Wicca) in pre-Hellenic Greece. Now maybe I don't
understand the term "pre-Hellenic" to mean what it means, but that seems to
me to say that Wicca predates Christianity by a whole lot.

Josh

****************
Sun, 31 Oct 93 12:27:24 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Storyteller's name?
--------
is Kayell'no. Kyle November?

Just more meaningless ramblings... :)

****************
Sun, 31 Oct 93 16:23:30 EST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Storyteller's name?
--------
>is Kayell'no. Kyle November?
>
>Just more meaningless ramblings... :)

I was under the impression it was Chauki November, but now I
don't remember why I thought that.

-Sol

****************
Mon, 01 Nov 93 10:37:30 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Prophet Harry
--------
Hmm... I thought the Last Dancer credits said something about Harry; I had
the (probably mistaken) impression that it was derived from somebody's
RPG or book.

(:
Wesley

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:18:16 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Short Stories
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
I was at my parent's house last night for my sister's birthday, so I
picked up my old Asimov's and did some digging.

Here's some more info on the short stories that DKM had published in
Asimov's (aka IAsfm) in the early 80's:

"All the Time in the World", May 1982. As mentioned in Solomon's
intro, this is the first section of _The Armageddon Blues_, which was
also named All the Time in the World. I haven't *really* looked, but
I don't think there are any significant differences between the short
story version and what was included in the book.

"The Gray Maelstrom", February 1983. This very short story is, in
fact, related to DKM's Great Wheel of Existence, although probably not
to the Continuing Time. It gives some more detail on what the Flame
people know as the spacelace tunnels; in fact, the description of the
lines and spheres in LD looks like it was cut-and-pasted from this
story. Others may not think much of it, but I think it was a powerful
little story, and the consequences of what happens to Joel Gray (the
main character) could bear some exploring...

"Realtime", August 1984. I don't have anything to add here, except to
say that this was another great story.
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Mon, 01 Nov 93 12:49:20 EST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Short Stories
--------
Mike Long writes:
>Here's some more info on the short stories that DKM had published in
>Asimov's (aka IAsfm) in the early 80's:
>
>"All the Time in the World", May 1982. As mentioned in Solomon's
>intro, this is the first section of _The Armageddon Blues_, which was
>also named All the Time in the World. I haven't *really* looked, but
>I don't think there are any significant differences between the short
>story version and what was included in the book.

Actually, as I recall, the last page is quite different --- in the
story, the last page is set way beyond the end of AB the book. Other
than that, I think the only differences were cosmetic improvements.

>"The Gray Maelstrom", February 1983. This very short story is, in
>fact, related to DKM's Great Wheel of Existence, although probably not
>to the Continuing Time. It gives some more detail on what the Flame
>people know as the spacelace tunnels; in fact, the description of the
>lines and spheres in LD looks like it was cut-and-pasted from this
>story. Others may not think much of it, but I think it was a powerful
>little story, and the consequences of what happens to Joel Gray (the
>main character) could bear some exploring...

Maybe I just need to read it again . . .

-Sol

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:07 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Prophet Harry
--------
In the Author's Note to tLD, DKM thanks to Dr. Death for letting him use the
Prophet Harry. I *think* Dr. Death is one of DKM's sisters (from my shady
memory of EE), but I wouldn't swear to it. Or perhaps Dr. Death is really
Belinda Singer in real life. Anyone know of a Belinda Singer?

Josh

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 0:05:39 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: another tLD question
--------
In "The Tricentenniel Summer," chapter 20, towards the end, Camber tells
Denice that she has three options: becoming a Dancer, becoming a nightface,
or "his path." "Sedon nearly chose that way; but fear took him, and he
failed."

Perhaps I'm being dense, but does anybody have any idea what Camber meant
as "his path"?

Sean.

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 10:57:16 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Storyteller's name?
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 93 16:23:30 EST
>From: Solomon Foster <[email protected]>
>
>>is Kayell'no. Kyle November?
>>
>>Just more meaningless ramblings... :)
>
>I was under the impression it was Chauki November, but now I
>don't remember why I thought that.
>
> -Sol

At some point (I don't remember where, but I think it might have been
when he was talking to Trent through Corona) Storyteller gives his
full name, and it is something like Chauki.
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:05 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
>In "The Tricentenniel Summer," chapter 20, towards the end, Camber tells
>Denice that she has three options: becoming a Dancer, becoming a nightface,
>or "his path." "Sedon nearly chose that way; but fear took him, and he
>failed."

>Perhaps I'm being dense, but does anybody have any idea what Camber meant
>as "his path"?

I took this to mean that Camber's path was to become a god, as he became one
of the ten gods in the Flame People's temple. Just my $.02.

Here's another question (maybe *I'm* just being dense): What did Sedon hope
to achieve through the Tricentennial Rebellion? Ring says that Sedon is the
best hope it's seen for the liberation of the U.S., but nobody else seems to
think that the rebels have much of a chance. And, indeed, they don't. Was
Sedon just blind to the truth? Or was the rebellion *designed* to fail?
Help!

Josh

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:17:59 -0500
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
The best theory I have is that Sedon told Ring about his plans to use
atomic blackmail, and that Ring thought it would work. What puzzles me
about this is that Sedon got what he needed to get the bombs (namely
David) only after Ring makes the statement.

- cks

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:31:10 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
>What did Sedon hope
>to achieve through the Tricentennial Rebellion?

Eventually, world domination. Thence to organize and prepare for the
sleem.

>Ring says that Sedon is the
>best hope it's seen for the liberation of the U.S., but nobody else seems to
>think that the rebels have much of a chance. And, indeed, they don't. Was
>Sedon just blind to the truth? Or was the rebellion *designed* to fail?

Almost nobody knew that Sedon had 22 warheads. Ring found that using
atomic weapons gave the rebellion a chance. (However, Trent says that
the PKF undoubtedly thought of that, as well, and had made plans... and
Ring failed before against the Unification.)

Those warheads are still out there, aren't they...

Sean.

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:28:03 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
> The best theory I have is that Sedon told Ring about his plans to use
>atomic blackmail, and that Ring thought it would work. What puzzles me
>about this is that Sedon got what he needed to get the bombs (namely
>David) only after Ring makes the statement.

This is almost given; note that Trent says he knows of one way to get
a chance, but that he thought of that way scares him.

Sedon, unlike almost every other person then and there, had no compunctions
against using nuclear weapons. So he probably suggested it to Ring. He
planned on getting them from the Japanese; I suspect that David just made
things easier (otherwise, he would have, I assume, Spoken to one or more
of the Japanese, or stolen, or blackmailed, or some other method).

Ring almost certainly knew about the truth the entire time; I don't think
it would have gotten involved in a plan that would result in the deaths
of millions of people -- *Americans* -- if it did not see a reasonable
chance of success. And, unlike human people, Sedon could not Speak to
Ring.

As it is, I am *very* curious to find out more about post-revolution
Ring. Given how much damage he caused to Americans, if it were human,
I would have expected a massive emotional breakdown. It'll be interesting
to see how Ring handles it. (Especially since the AI Wars are coming
up soon...)

Sean.

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:27:39 -0500
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
>Here's another question (maybe *I'm* just being dense): What did Sedon hope
>to achieve through the Tricentennial Rebellion? Ring says that Sedon is the
>best hope it's seen for the liberation of the U.S., but nobody else seems to
>think that the rebels have much of a chance. And, indeed, they don't. Was
>Sedon just blind to the truth? Or was the rebellion *designed* to fail?
>Help!

this is interesting. dkm sort of left us dangling on that particular
subject didn't he.

mike

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:36:42 EST
****************

From: john bykowski <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: sedon's plans
--------
I remember sedon explaining that he wanted the planet to be prepared for
an invasion by the sleem. This statement was meant to justify his use of
nuclear weapons, and I believe that to some extent, it does. He knows how
powerful the sleem are, and with a united America under his command, he
could put together the resources to make a stand, wheras the UN has no
idea what they've stumbled upon. We may know that the war with the slem
starts around 2111, but he doesn't. It's not all that far away from 2076,
so they've little time to prepare.
If Sedon explained the whole theory to Ring, it would realize the danger
and get behind someone that can and will try to do something about it. I
remember Ring saying "the salient feature of America...lies in the
assumption that humans are wise enough to control their own lives." (p.186)
The sleem's policy of shutting off further expansion would seem to limit
humans' abilities to do so; the AI war may then be an attempt by Ring to
gain personal control to further that end. (of course, this is all sheer
speculation - the AI war may just be about Ring and Ralph trying to do
each other in.)

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:38:04 -0500
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
Perhaps Ring has a breakdown from the events of the revolution
(maybe it lashes out at the other AIs for not helping it), and this
is what brings about the AI Wars?

Or do we know roughly what the sides are in the AI Wars, and the
sides make this implausible?

- cks

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:41:34 -0500
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
| Those warheads are still out there, aren't they...

Mohammed Vance mentions to the ex-commander of the PKF that they
captured them, loaded onto ready semiballistics. Indeed, Vance rants
somewhat incoherently about how this is a first for the opposition to
the Unification, although I can't help think that Vance's own readyness
to use tactical nuclear weapons has something to blame for this as well.

- cks

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:46:47 -0500
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ring vs Ralf and the AI Wars
--------
| (of course, this is all sheer speculation - the AI war may just be
| about Ring and Ralph trying to do each other in.)

Ralf didn't sound like he wanted to tangle with Ring, and Ring didn't
recognize Ralf the last time the two met; I suspect they won't be
fighting unless Ralf has to. DKM seems to present Ring as something
that no single AI could or would tackle on its own.

- cks

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 14:50:29 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 11:31:10 PST
>From: [email protected]
>
>Almost nobody knew that Sedon had 22 warheads. Ring found that using
>atomic weapons gave the rebellion a chance. (However, Trent says that
>the PKF undoubtedly thought of that, as well, and had made plans... and
>Ring failed before against the Unification.)
>
>Those warheads are still out there, aren't they...

No, they're not. In Vance's last conversation with Mirabeau (I
think), he tells her that the PKF recovered 22 SBs with fusion
warheads in them when San Diego was retaken.

>Sean.

--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Mon, 01 Nov 93 16:22:49 EST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
Sean writes:
>Chris Siebenmann writes:
>> The best theory I have is that Sedon told Ring about his plans to use
>>atomic blackmail, and that Ring thought it would work. What puzzles me
>>about this is that Sedon got what he needed to get the bombs (namely
>>David) only after Ring makes the statement.
>
>This is almost given; note that Trent says he knows of one way to get
>a chance, but that he thought of that way scares him.
>
>Sedon, unlike almost every other person then and there, had no compunctions
>against using nuclear weapons. So he probably suggested it to Ring. He
>planned on getting them from the Japanese; I suspect that David just made
>things easier (otherwise, he would have, I assume, Spoken to one or more
>of the Japanese, or stolen, or blackmailed, or some other method).

My guess is that Ring was using Sedon. Ring is smart enough to
know that the PKF will be ready to deal with nukes. As a result of
forcing the issue, martial law has been declared. In the short run,
this is no doubt bad for the cause; but in the long run, it is going
to cause a lot more dissent. When you factor in the evidence that the
PKF is mortal (all the dead Elite, for example), this will set the
stage for a successful revolution.

Supporting evidence:
I don't think Sedon's goals coincided with Ring's
at all. Both wanted to topple the UN, but for very different reasons.
I think Sedon would be fundamently opposed to the kind of government
Ring is fundamently in favor of.

There was every possibility for a much stronger revolution.
Remember the training while pretending to film a sensible? Callia (I
think) comments how stupid this is, and I agree, _if_ you are trying
to run a successful revolution. It's ideal for a flop, though. Likewise
no serious attempt is made to bring the CityStates into the picture.
Ring doesn't call in the favor Trent owes him. The whole thing is
pushed foward for purely symbolic reasons. None of this makes a lot
of sense, if you assume Ring wanted to win. If you assume it wanted
to make a stir with a failed revolution, it is brilliant.

-Sol

****************
Mon, 01 Nov 1993 13:23:24 -0800 (PST)
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU
****************

From: [email protected] (dann cutter)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ring vrs. the Unification
--------
Humm.. if RING is a powerful and all controlling as DKM makes him, it
would seem he could singlehandedly screw up the PFK pretty badly. I
mean he could fake troop deployment, he could cause small 'accidents'
which would hadly be tracable. I think Ring is not ready yet. Trent
hinted maybe at this when he wouldn't let the net go down... even
though it might have made the difference in the war. I think the whole
america rebellion didn't work to well. It seems ring pretty much had
little to do with it, and not much stategic planning really went into
it. I mean, the Unification is based on the east coast, then why
attack cali? Maybe DKM need to have more stategy in the war plots...
really obvious that the Unification would win, I mean, Japan was a
great distraction, but...

Anyways, still no luck getting the RING. Anybody want to sell me
a copy? :-)

_______________________________________________________________
Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises=81 / [email protected]

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 1993 09:27:48 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
>
> In "The Tricentenniel Summer," chapter 20, towards the end, Camber tells
> Denice that she has three options: becoming a Dancer, becoming a nightface,
> or "his path." "Sedon nearly chose that way; but fear took him, and he
> failed."
>
> Perhaps I'm being dense, but does anybody have any idea what Camber meant
> as "his path"?
>
> Sean.
>
Well from my memory of that bit, Camber said Denice could choose to become a
Dancer or a Nightface and that failing to choose would result in her death. He
added after this that she might also choose his path, but that this was
unlikely. It may well be that his is the path that leads to godhood, but my
opinion is that this path involves choosing to become both a Dancer and a
nightface. This is remembering that earlier on Camber says that both he and the
Name Storyteller are nightfaces.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 21:10 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
>My guess is that Ring was using Sedon. Ring is smart enough to
>know that the PKF will be ready to deal with nukes. As a result of
>forcing the issue, martial law has been declared. In the short run,
>this is no doubt bad for the cause; but in the long run, it is going
>to cause a lot more dissent. When you factor in the evidence that the
>PKF is mortal (all the dead Elite, for example), this will set the
>stage for a successful revolution.

>Supporting evidence:
> I don't think Sedon's goals coincided with Ring's
>at all. Both wanted to topple the UN, but for very different reasons.
>I think Sedon would be fundamently opposed to the kind of government
>Ring is fundamently in favor of.

> There was every possibility for a much stronger revolution.
>Remember the training while pretending to film a sensible? Callia (I
>think) comments how stupid this is, and I agree, _if_ you are trying
>to run a successful revolution. It's ideal for a flop, though. Likewise
>no serious attempt is made to bring the CityStates into the picture.
>Ring doesn't call in the favor Trent owes him. The whole thing is
>pushed foward for purely symbolic reasons. None of this makes a lot
>of sense, if you assume Ring wanted to win. If you assume it wanted
>to make a stir with a failed revolution, it is brilliant.

Right, so it makes sense from Ring's POV, but what about Sedon? The nukes
have to shift the balance somewhat, making it more likely that Sedon would
win, but as I remember it, the PKF swept through L.A. pretty easily. Seems
to me that Sedon wasn't nearly as prepared as he should have been, and he
just doesn't seem to be that stupid to me. Trent says that it would take a
hell of a lot for Sedon to win, and that the Rebs and the Claw just don't
have the backing for a successful rebellion. Oh well, at least we've found
another issue to debate. :)

Josh
another issue to debate. :)
"Opinions? What are those?"

****************
Mon, 01 Nov 93 22:08:10 EST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
Josh Kaderlan writes:
>Sol writes:
>> There was every possibility for a much stronger revolution.
>>Remember the training while pretending to film a sensible? Callia (I
>>think) comments how stupid this is, and I agree, _if_ you are trying
>>to run a successful revolution. It's ideal for a flop, though. Likewise
>>no serious attempt is made to bring the CityStates into the picture.
>>Ring doesn't call in the favor Trent owes him. The whole thing is
>>pushed foward for purely symbolic reasons. None of this makes a lot
>>of sense, if you assume Ring wanted to win. If you assume it wanted
>>to make a stir with a failed revolution, it is brilliant.
>
>Right, so it makes sense from Ring's POV, but what about Sedon? The nukes
>have to shift the balance somewhat, making it more likely that Sedon would
>win, but as I remember it, the PKF swept through L.A. pretty easily. Seems
>to me that Sedon wasn't nearly as prepared as he should have been, and he
>just doesn't seem to be that stupid to me. Trent says that it would take a
>hell of a lot for Sedon to win, and that the Rebs and the Claw just don't
>have the backing for a successful rebellion. Oh well, at least we've found
>another issue to debate. :)

I think Sedon, while smart, is out of his depth. In particular,
would he expect a computer to deceive him? My guess is that Sedon
relied heavily on computer simulations (as everyone in this world
seems to do) for decision making, and Ring faked the numbers.
(As for why other humans would go along, when one of your side's
biggest assests is the world's most powerful program, you tend to
assume it isn't lying to you.)

-Sol

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 1993 22:41:20 -0500
****************

From: chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent and Ring and so on
--------
I never got a clear feeling for why Trent went to the space
station in the first place -- to prevent the Earth Datanet being
crashed? To do strange things to it himself?

- cks

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 22:25:44 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mr. Barnes, did you read this book?
--------
>I've got a little question. Who's the other heroine?

Callia, I suspect.

(I had to work that out when I reread tLD this weekend...)

Sean.

****************
Mon, 1 Nov 93 13:13:49 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
> Perhaps Ring has a breakdown from the events of the revolution
>(maybe it lashes out at the other AIs for not helping it), and this
>is what brings about the AI Wars?
> Or do we know roughly what the sides are in the AI Wars, and the
>sides make this implausible?

I think the best clue we have is something Trent said in tLD. He made
a comment about not wanting to be around if the AIs declared war on
DataWatch... so I think that's what the AI wars is going to be about.
Note that in DKM's timeline, it's called "The AI War", not wars.

The AI War happens 20 years before the revolution (and, incidently,
I think that the revolution is sparked by Trent's death, but we'll
see; DKM said that book one of Players would come out in '94, and
that book one and book two would be published nearly back to back...);
I think DataWatch gets taken down by the AIs, Ripper and Denice cause
the AIs (and probably genies in general) to be granted citeznship,
and Ripper then becomes a Major Political Force. (At the end of tLD,
he is hampered by the fact that Eddore is going to be Secretary
General for as long as he can forsee... But I suspect at least part
of his downfall will come from the publication of his involvement in
the rebellion and with Trent...)

I WANT ANOTHER DKM BOOK!!! :)

Sean.

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 1993 10:50:34 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew bailey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ring vrs the unification
--------
Hmm,
I had a thought. How do we know that sec-gen eddore was the only
party to not want the infonet to go down. Perhaps ring aloso contacted
Trent Perhaps it was just Ring who did It as he may not have been ready(
as someone else on this list said) especially as he may not have really
wanted the revolution to succeed. If he arranged the troop movements by
sending bogus orders to space force then it would have been overlooked
in the aftermath. If the net had gone down Eddore quite probably would
not mind that much as his power could be much stronger proviede datawach
won the ensuing battle and he had a good control over data watch. ZFor
more explanation on how the media contrtols a nation see chompsky.

And yes I know this sounds like a conspiacy theory but what the hey.

The Acolyte

PS I wonder if the Church of thge sub-Genius is around in 207? if so how
would the react to the sleem?

--
I'm just a hard working corporate slave |
My mind should hate what my body does crave|
I'm just a humble corporate slave |
Working my way to a corporate grave - Snog| [email protected]

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 93 0:48:59 EST
****************

From: john bykowski <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Mr. Barnes, did you read this book?
--------
" Filled with gods, two VERY memorable heroines..." - Stephen Barnes, on
the back cover.

I've got a little question. Who's the other heroine? I think she must
have been left out of my copy, because I did't see one, and I assume that
either Mr. Barnes or the publishing company would have read the book,
because it would be incredibly stupid to write a blurb on a book you
haven't really read, or to print a blurb containing such a mistake on the
back cover of said book. So, as you see, my copy must have been
deficient. Could anyone describe this other heroine to me? She must have
been the interesting, three-dimensional one my copy lacked.

****************
Tue, 02 Nov 93 12:58:45 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], chris siebenmann <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Trent's why's and wherefore's
--------
I figured that Trent went to the space station to:
a) hold the net steady as he claimed,
b) talk to Denice and maybe convince her personally to go outbound with
him if the opportunity presented itself.

(:
Wesley

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 93 10:10:40 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's why's and wherefore's
--------
>I figured that Trent went to the space station to:
>a) hold the net steady as he claimed,
>b) talk to Denice and maybe convince her personally to go outbound with
>him if the opportunity presented itself.

Unlikely, as it seemed pretty clear he really didn't know about what
Michelle was going to do.

There are several things to consider about that section. First of all,
Trent is a thief; also, he is dedicated to overthrowing the Unification
(not because he thinks it's a wrong idea, but because the Unification is
going *bad*). Also, consider Storyteller's story about Ifahad and Hiding --
that running away can be as strong a political statement as anything else.

Eddore got the ability for the rebellion to happen out of it. Trent got
*at least* a chance to snub the PKF again, a chance to *hurt* them.
Presumably, he also stole something; what, I don't know. He also got
reunited with Jimmy, although I am pretty sure that was a complete
accident (it only happened because Denice attacked Sedon, and Jimmy was
there, and didn't attack her, therefore he had to leave with Denice, and
nobody could have predicted that Denice would have attacked *then*, and
the only reason they went to Chandler's place was because Chandler was
the first person Ring got in touch with, etc.).

I also suspect that Eddore offered Trent a chance to get rid of Vance, or at
least make him less of a threat (remember, they're both terrified of Vance).
But I still can't picture Trent doing anything to help the rebellion, given
how many people died in it. (However, the crashed InfoNet gave even worse
numbers...)

I still want another DKM novel :(.

Sean.

****************
Tue, 02 Nov 93 19:33:32 EST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Back of Last Dancer
--------
Traveller In Black writes:
>" Filled with gods, two VERY memorable heroines..." - Stephen Barnes, on
>the back cover.

>I've got a little question. Who's the other heroine? I think she must
>have been left out of my copy, because I did't see one, and I assume
>that either Mr. Barnes or the publishing company would have read the
>book, because it would be incredibly stupid to write a blurb on a book
>you haven't really read, or to print a blurb containing such a mistake
>on the back cover of said book.

Well, Barnes is listed as one of the experts on the dedication page, so
I suspect he did read the book. (Though, looking at his blurb, I also
wonder what "E.T.'s" and "genocide" refer to.) Probably he wrote "two
heroes", as I might have. (Or he knows something about Ralf that we
don't.)

On the other hand, I have no trouble believing the publishers missed
that. At the moment, I'm feeling more than a little cynical about
Bantam Spectra. After months (even years) of actively searching out ads
for the book, I never saw one. Each of Moran's previous paperbacks got
a full page ad in IAsfm; if Last Dancer got one anywhere, I missed it.
They sat on the book for more than a year; they let the previous ones,
obviously still in demand, go out of print; they didn't advertise for
this one; and, if the local bookstore is any sign, they're not pushing
it. The author's note is messed up; why not the quotes on the back of
the book?

-Sol

****************
Tue, 02 Nov 93 22:36:33 EST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Camber
--------
Okay, I've started re-reading the Last Dancer, and I'll be posting
interesting things I find on the second time through. (Hey, this is
much more interesting than differential manifolds.)

LD, p53: Camber: "if you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and
in that place I am a different order of person. As you have learned, I
will not always recognize you there."

Is this possibly the distinction between Camber and the Nameless One?

LD, p52: "In the place where his face should have been was a featureless
dark gray mist the color of slate."

Contrast this with

LR, p34: "The man had eyes as black as a Peaceforcer's heart, flat black
with no whites in them, no internal structure at all."

The relationship between Camber and Yo is much stronger than that
between Camber and Devlin. So why does Devlin get to see Camber's face?

Also, this got me thinking a bit about Storyteller. He is the narrator
thoughout, right? So everything we learn about Camber is filtered
through Storyteller's tale . . .

-Sol

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 93 22:43:45 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (bryant durrell)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Names and Significance
--------
A thought which struck me tonight --

Sedon. Dvan. Satan? Divine?

Or am I reading too much into a simple coincidence?

Oh, and yeah, Dr. Death is presumably his sister, since TLR is
dedicated to a Doctor Death who's his sister. One assumes the
man doesn't have two Dr. Deaths in his life. <grin>

Bryant

****************
Wed, 03 Nov 1993 06:56:27 CST
****************

From: "ian sutherland" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Names and Significance
--------
On Tue, 2 Nov 93 22:43:45 -0800, "Bryant Durrell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> A thought which struck me tonight --
>
> Sedon. Dvan. Satan? Divine?
>
> Or am I reading too much into a simple coincidence?

Does Sedon really seem that Satanic to you, or Dvan that divine?
Certainly Denice didn't seem to see things as being that black and
white.
--
Ian Sutherland Key Software, Inc. [email protected] (708)864-1596

****************
Wed, 03 Nov 93 09:24:55 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Names and Significance
--------
Well, DKM references "the book False Prophets" explicitly for
the Prophet Harry - does DKM's sister write?

(:
Wesley

****************
Wed, 3 Nov 93 08:25:04 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (bryant durrell)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Names and Significance
--------
Ian says:
>Does Sedon really seem that Satanic to you, or Dvan that divine?
>Certainly Denice didn't seem to see things as being that black and
>white.

No, not really, but I'm considering their places in Earth human
history as well. Sedon brought civilization to Earth, neh? Which
would seem to slot him into the role of Lightbringer, or Lucifer.
He's the Snake in the Garden, quite clearly.

Dvan is less obvious, and I don't like that correspondence as much,
but I rank it as a possible.

It's also worth noting that Satan isn't necessarily a black and
white figure. If I believed in the Christian mythos, I wouldn't
find him purely evil, and it's even easier to create a sympathetic
character of him in a fictional world. Steven Brust's _To Reign
In Hell_ is a great example.

Bryant

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 93 19:52:30 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Camber
--------
I suspect the answer to:

>LD, p53: Camber: "if you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and
>in that place I am a different order of person. As you have learned, I
>will not always recognize you there."
>Is this possibly the distinction between Camber and the Nameless One?

and:

>The relationship between Camber and Yo is much stronger than that
>between Camber and Devlin. So why does Devlin get to see Camber's face?

is the same, namely, that Camber is a time traveler, and he has changed,
as subjective time goes by.

The "Other Place," I assume, is the crystal plain that the telepaths can
enter, but that's not necessarily true.

>Also, this got me thinking a bit about Storyteller. He is the narrator
>thoughout, right? So everything we learn about Camber is filtered
>through Storyteller's tale . . .

Yes. And Storyteller himself claims that facts get in the way of telling
a Story. (On the other hand, we have quotes from the Name Historian
at various points, which provide some other glimpses...) But I think we
can take it all as "true"...

Oh, and _The Long Run_ is, I think, not narrated by Storyteller.

Sean.

****************
Wed, 3 Nov 93 01:26 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer
--------
>Well, Barnes is listed as one of the experts on the dedication page, so
>I suspect he did read the book. (Though, looking at his blurb, I also
>wonder what "E.T.'s" and "genocide" refer to.) Probably he wrote "two
>heroes", as I might have. (Or he knows something about Ralf that we
>don't.)

The genocide might be a reference to the Shield's extermination of the
Neanderthals; it isn't clear to what extent the Shield were successful.

>On the other hand, I have no trouble believing the publishers missed >that.
At the moment, I'm feeling more than a little cynical about >Bantam Spectra.
After months (even years) of actively searching out ads >for the book, I
never saw one. Each of Moran's previous paperbacks got >a full page ad in
IAsfm; if Last Dancer got one anywhere, I missed it. >They sat on the book
for more than a year; they let the previous ones, >obviously still in
demand, go out of print; they didn't advertise for >this one; and, if the
local bookstore is any sign, they're not pushing >it. The author's note is
messed up; why not the quotes on the back of >the book?

I went to my friendly neighborhood independent bookseller today, and this is
what happened: I ask the guy behind the desk if they've got a copy of Books
in Print. He says yes, on CD-ROM. I ask him to look up EE, and lo and
behold, there it is. So he calls Bantam. After a little telephone tag, he
gets through to someone to check on distribution. *Off the top of her
head*, the woman on the phone says that it's not in print. Thanks, Bantam.

Josh

****************
Wed, 03 Nov 1993 12:33:41 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Camber
--------
>I suspect the answer to:
>
>>LD, p53: Camber: "if you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and
>>in that place I am a different order of person. As you have learned, I
>>will not always recognize you there."
>>Is this possibly the distinction between Camber and the Nameless One?
>
>and:
>
>>The relationship between Camber and Yo is much stronger than that
>>between Camber and Devlin. So why does Devlin get to see Camber's face?
>
>is the same, namely, that Camber is a time traveler, and he has changed,
>as subjective time goes by.

I agree, but it seems like he would probably have done his work in
that time at roughly the same time on his personal timeline . . .

>The "Other Place," I assume, is the crystal plain that the telepaths can
>enter, but that's not necessarily true.

But why would Camber not recognize Yo there? (Maybe because Camber
is _not_ a telepath naturally?) And how would Yo get there to see
Camber?

>>Also, this got me thinking a bit about Storyteller. He is the narrator
>>thoughout, right? So everything we learn about Camber is filtered
>>through Storyteller's tale . . .
>
>Yes. And Storyteller himself claims that facts get in the way of telling
>a Story. (On the other hand, we have quotes from the Name Historian
>at various points, which provide some other glimpses...)

Though of course, we must assume that Storyteller chooses the quotes . . .

>Oh, and _The Long Run_ is, I think, not narrated by Storyteller.

I beg to differ. Not only is the epilogue to LR explicitly Storyteller,
but there is nothing in the text which Storyteller couldn't have known
or guessed. In particular, this why we never learn whether Trent
walked through the wall or not --- Storyteller simply doesn't know.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 2 Nov 93 20:32:07 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Camber
--------
> I tend to think of anything not explicitly narrated by someone
>as being omnisciently correct; most other ways lead (IMHO) to
>madness. No doubt one could waffle about what exactly a section
>is and how explicit Moran is about marking narrators.

I disagree completely. It is pretty obvious, to me, that both EE and
tLD are narrated by the Name Storyteller. The only flaw in EE, with
that respect, is too much knowledge about what Trent is doing,
although I guess Storyteller could have been, uhm, Telling a Story :).

The main reason I say that _The Long Run_ isn't narrated by Storyteller
is because he says he never knew Trent, which would be necessary if
he were Telling that Story. _The Last Dancer_, however, only shows
Trent through Corona's eyes -- and Corona is one of Storyteller's
avatars. (Hm... does that mean that what's-her-name, the singer,
is an avatar as well?) Bear in mind that Storyteller is a telepath,
so he could read minds to get any missing information...

Since Storyteller *is* telling the story, it doesn't really matter.
Except that Moran has given himself an out for minor inconsistencies...

Sean.

****************
Wed, 3 Nov 93 12:40:11 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: some more thoughts about tLD
--------
Re Sedon and the rebellion: Sedon says, I forget to whom (my copy of the
book is at home, I'm at work) that it's likely they'll need, at most,
to hit three or four cities with the nukes. I suspect those cities
would be really major ones to the Unification -- what is the Unification
going to do after all of their high officials have been vaporized? Oh,
well, we'll never know now :).

Also: the Keepers of the Flame, maybe all of the Flame People (or,
more accurately, the ones we care about, such as the Dancers, the Keepers,
and the Shields) were mildly telepathic. Unlike Denice, however, they
needed to *touch*. Sedon says that the Keepers touched him so when he
was consecrated, when Denice first tries to read his mind, and Saliya
touches Dvan at one point, and there is a comment about their nervous
systems joining, or somesuch. And, lastly, there is a comment about
Sedon having (almost?) complete control over his nervous system -- and
we got to see Denice do that, completely untrained, during her interview
for Ripper. Although I think she did it differently than the Dancers
did...

Sean.

****************
Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:40:37 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: simon cardinale <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Long Run
--------
(off the subject in the extreme)

tLR once quotes someone named "Denice Ripper", so I guess they eventually
DO get maried (disappointing, non?)

****************
Wed, 3 Nov 93 13:45:56 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Long Run
--------
>tLR once quotes someone named "Denice Ripper", so I guess they eventually
>DO get maried (disappointing, non?)

Even before that, in _Emerald Eyes_, Storyteller makes some comment about
David and Denice -- yes the Denice Ripper from whom our line is descended...

And we saw Ripper in EE. So we knew even then that that was going to
happen...

And then one of the chapters in _Players_ is "The Telepath, the Politician,
and the Thief."

Wonder how Ripper is going to react to finding out Denice is a telepath
and known associate of Trent the Uncatchable? :)

Sean.

****************
Wed, 03 Nov 93 23:12:47 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Denice, training
--------
I thought when Denice did her little stunt of controlling
her nervous system that she said she learned it from her father
(or at least the calming techniques it was based on)...

(:
Wesley

****************
Wed, 3 Nov 93 20:16:07 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Denice, training
--------
>I thought when Denice did her little stunt of controlling
>her nervous system that she said she learned it from her father
>(or at least the calming techniques it was based on)...

No, two seperate things. The calming she did either to relax,
or, more likely, to prepare for doing it. When she actually manipulated
her nervous system, I think she was partially on the crystal plain,
looking at her own nervous system.

Sean.

****************
Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:33:37 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected], josh kaderlan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer
--------
On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote:

> The genocide might be a reference to the Shield's extermination of the
> Neanderthals; it isn't clear to what extent the Shield were successful.

I wondered about this when Dvan said something like you are our children
and you are completely insane. Or something like that. Is it not
possible to blame humanities insanity on the shields extermination
program? If they had not gone round killing off anyone who used language
or tools for 10,000 years perhaps humans would have turned out
differently. By the way has anyone got any theories on whether Dvan is
still alive or not?

Andrew McColl
[email protected]

****************
Thu, 4 Nov 1993 01:05:55 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: simon cardinale <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer
--------
On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Andrew McColl wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote:
>
> > The genocide might be a reference to the Shield's extermination of the
> > Neanderthals; it isn't clear to what extent the Shield were successful.
>
> I wondered about this when Dvan said something like you are our children
> and you are completely insane. Or something like that. Is it not
> possible to blame humanities insanity on the shields extermination
> program? If they had not gone round killing off anyone who used language
> or tools for 10,000 years perhaps humans would have turned out
> differently. By the way has anyone got any theories on whether Dvan is
> still alive or not?
>

Sure, humanity would have achieved a lot more given a few thousand years
head start.

And I'd say Dvan's still around. Moran is anything but sloppy
with loose ends. If it looks loose it'll come back next book.

****************
Thu, 4 Nov 1993 20:25:47 +1100 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (simon tong)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Denice Ripper ?
--------
> tLR once quotes someone named "Denice Ripper", so I guess they eventually
> DO get maried (disappointing, non?)

There is a minor character in EE called Doug Ripper, who is a
politician. He was alos mentioned at least once in tLR.
Reading the author's note at the end of EE, I think DKM may
have great things installed for him.

****************
Thu, 4 Nov 93 20:02:11 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Back of Last Dancer
--------
> On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote:

> ... By the way has anyone got any theories on whether Dvan is
> > still alive or not?
>
>
> Sure, humanity would have achieved a lot more given a few thousand years
> head start.
>
> And I'd say Dvan's still around. Moran is anything but sloppy
> with loose ends. If it looks loose it'll come back next book.

-- A truism. I had absolutely forgotten Neil Corona, and look where HE is
now.

****************
Fri, 5 Nov 93 15:12 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: another tLD question
--------
>My guess is that Ring was using Sedon. Ring is smart enough to
>know that the PKF will be ready to deal with nukes. As a result of
>forcing the issue, martial law has been declared. In the short run,
>this is no doubt bad for the cause; but in the long run, it is going
>to cause a lot more dissent. When you factor in the evidence that the
>PKF is mortal (all the dead Elite, for example), this will set the
>stage for a successful revolution.

I don't think so; one of the characters (Trent, I think) says that the
TriCentennial Revolution shows why there will never be a successful
revolution on earth. Trent says that in order to win a revolution, one has
to take down DataWatch and the InfoNet, and that would destroy civilization.
Earth is simply far toodependent on the InfoNet.

Josh

****************
Fri, 05 Nov 93 22:13:41 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons"
--------
Hmm... I think Ring was employing "Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
psychology - you have to make things WORSE before people
will work to make them better.

(:
Wesley

****************
Fri, 5 Nov 93 21:25:50 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons"
--------
>(Especially since Vance
>kills Trent in "Players, Book One: The AI War" . . . )

I don't think this is correct; isn't there a quote from Trent during
the War with the Sleem in _The Long Run_? (Something like, "I never
*ever* talk like that!")

Yes, in fact, on page 15 of my copy of _The Long Run_:

I never *ever* talk like that.
-- Trent the Uncatchable, in conversation with
the historian Corazon de Nostri, during the War
with the Sleem.

The War with the Sleem starts in 2111, 11 years after the end of Players.

Trent, therefore, gets killed by Vance in tWwtS.

Sean.

****************
Sat, 6 Nov 1993 14:37:16 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons"
--------
>
> The War with the Sleem starts in 2111, 11 years after the end of Players.
>
> Trent, therefore, gets killed by Vance in tWwtS.
>
> Sean.
>
Not if he gets killed by Vance in Players and then comes back, this would be
a suitable thing for a god to do, and we know that he becomes one in the end
(at least in the minds of millions). It wouldn't be entirely out of character
for Trent to fake his own death, or for Vance to mistakenly think that he'd
killed him. Trent coming back would just add to the general Trent mythos
which Trent himself is always seeking to feed, and make Vance look incompetent,
which Trent is also constantly trying to do. As far as I'm concerned, Trent
dying in Players wouldn't prevent him from returning in tWwtS. And even that is
assuming that it's the human Trent who made the statement, and not a replicant
of his persona as a player.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Fri, 5 Nov 93 23:00:22 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons"
--------
>Not if he gets killed by Vance in Players and then comes back,

I think Trent *does* come back, but he doesn't come back for a *long*
time (not until the end of the Continuing Time).

There is a "Return of the Ultimate Webdancer," but DKM has stated that
this is *NOT* Trent -- just that a lot of people think he is.

>It wouldn't be entirely out of character
>for Trent to fake his own death, or for Vance to mistakenly think that he'd
>killed him.

No, Vance kills him, from what Moran described.

However, we won't know for certain for years and years and years and years.
I WANT THE NEXT DKM NOVEL TO COME OUT *NOW*! :(

Oh, does everybody have a copy of the timeline DKM posted to the net, or
would it be a worthwhile thing to send out to the list?

Sean.

****************
Sat, 06 Nov 1993 20:15:56 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent's Death
--------
Sean writes:
>Greg writes:
>>Not if he gets killed by Vance in Players and then comes back,
>
>I think Trent *does* come back, but he doesn't come back for a *long*
>time (not until the end of the Continuing Time).

Nope, Greg and I are right.

DKM wrote (a while back):
>It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory
>is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that
>it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him.

If we are to believe this, Trent is killed in the AI War, and,
obviously, is back for Players Book Two. (Obviously, because it
wouldn't make much sense to call it the "Trent Duology" if Trent died in
the first one.)

Of course, I think he'll come back later, too. Like I've said
previously, Trent does the Jesus thing --- works miracles, dies, and
then comes back twice. (No offense if there are any religous folk out
there, just describing the general flow of Trent's life.)

>>It wouldn't be entirely out of character
>>for Trent to fake his own death, or for Vance to mistakenly think that he'd
>>killed him.
>
>No, Vance kills him, from what Moran described.

I don't see how you can properly kill someone who's already half AI.
(Certainly it is possible to "kill" such a person without ending their
life . . . )

>However, we won't know for certain for years and years and years and years.
>I WANT THE NEXT DKM NOVEL TO COME OUT *NOW*! :(

As far as I know, _The AI War_ is due next fall. That should be a good
start . . .

-Sol

****************
Sun, 07 Nov 93 11:45:45 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death
--------
The statement:

>It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory
>is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that
>it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him.

does NOT require Vance to kill him during the AI war; it simply
requires that Vance figures it out during the AI war, and at
some later time tells Trent his discovery before killing Trent.

Sigh. It's sad to know that one's hero is doomed.

(:
Wesley

****************
Sun, 7 Nov 93 9:34:38 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death
--------
>Sigh. It's sad to know that one's hero is doomed.

Yeah, but we already know this. There are a couple of comments in
_The Long Run_ that imply this pretty heavily. The thing I really
thought cute about that is that one of them, a quote by Melissa,
*doesn't have a date*. So many of the other quotes have dates, but
this one doesn't.

I think Melissa may also be one of the early players in the Church
of His Return...

Sean.

****************
Sun, 07 Nov 1993 17:34:39 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death
--------
Wes says:
>The statement:
>
>>It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory
>>is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that
>>it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him.
>
>does NOT require Vance to kill him during the AI war; it simply
>requires that Vance figures it out during the AI war, and at
>some later time tells Trent his discovery before killing Trent.

True, but it is highly suggestive.

>Sigh. It's sad to know that one's hero is doomed.

Well, we know he'll be around in one form or another at least till
the war with the Sleem. That's what, at least five books? Plus
when he comes back from the dead way in the future. What more do
you want?

(:
Sol

****************
Sun, 7 Nov 1993 16:04:35 -0700
****************

From: [email protected] (chris-top-her)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent's Death
--------
I think the flesh may die, but the copy that talked to Denice is the one
that returns after his physical death... Remeber that he lept out of the
satellite on an outward bound maser (laser?) beam... If he can intercept
anything he might be able to reconstitute himself as Ring did...

my 2 cents,
Chris

****************
Sun, 7 Nov 93 21:52:46 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Speculation about `The Player'
--------
> The next two novel due in the Continuing Time about
>Post-Unification is the two part `The Player', with AI War and Revolution.

Uhm, I don't think so:

(From one of DKM's postings to the net, lo that long time ago)

2. The Continuing Time novel I'm currently at work on
is "Lord November: The Man-Spacething War." It's
set in approximately 2680, six hundred years after
the Trent/Denice stories. It's another very big
novel, and the first Continuing Time novel that's
really *set* out in the Continuing Time. Its
principal characters are Tyrel November, one of
Denice Castanaveras' descendants, and Bodhisatva
Sill, a Pinkerton Agent who also happens to be a
Trentist, a member of the Exodus Church, aka "The
Church of His Return."

"Once there was a thief, and the thief was God..."

I think you'll like it.

3. There are two more novels coming about the Trent
you have come to know and argue over. Unlike "Last
Dancer," Trent will have about as much time on
stage as in "The Long Run." The two books are due
soon after "Lord November" -- and I do mean soon.
They'll be published pretty much back to back.

_Lord November_ will come out before _The Player_.

Sean.

****************
Sun, 7 Nov 1993 20:32:50 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (rodrick su)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Speculation about `The Player'
--------
The next two novel due in the Continuing Time about
Post-Unification is the two part `The Player', with AI War and Revolution.

It was hinted that in the late 21 century, the Peacekeeper had a
revolt in its own rank, and the Peacekeeper's Heaven was destroyed. Now
also, that Trent warn about the possibliity of all the Rogue AI turning
their attention to dismantle Datawatch.

I am going out on a limb here. My feeling is that the first book
deals with the all out war between Datawatch and rogue AI. And the second
book about the Peacekeeper's Revolt.

Any takers?

--
[ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ]
[----------------------[ skydiving. ]
[ [email protected] ]------------------------[ ``Games of the Hangman'' ]
[ [email protected] ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ]

****************
Mon, 8 Nov 93 16:47:33 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent's Death
--------
> I think Melissa may also be one of the early players in the Church
> of His Return...

<SNAP!> THAT'S who it is! I'm rereading tLD now, and I realized that
there are at least a couple of characters who became important to me in tLR that
simply do not exist in tLD, and their replacements are less than exemplary.
Melissa DuBois has CHARACTER that seems disturbingly lacking in such types as
Gi'Tbad Eovad Dvan and Obodi Sedon (they're too damn old -- no real passion,
although that's mildly arguable in Sedon's case). Even Robert Dazai Yo, whose
presence I DO like, doesn't have any real punch (if you'll pardon) to him. I'm
not sure, but perhaps it's because it never really feels like any of these
characters (the newbies in tLD) are ever a *threat* to Denice. We, as the
readers, know damn well she doesn't die yet, as well as what she's capable of.
She's a worldbeater, and it takes a worldbeaterbeater to pose a threat which
makes a plotline really gripping. Denice has no Achilles heel, and this makes
her dull.

Trent, by contrast, cannot look at a person, say, "Go to sleep", and expect
that same would happen anytime before his target got tired. Melissa DuBois
therefore was a *threat* to Trent. If that maser she horked from him in the
North Bay of PeaceForcer Heaven hadn't been relieved of its charge cartridge,
Trent would be dead, dead, dead. Elite Sgt. Garon should have killed Trent.
Vance came closer than anyone, and will eventually succeed. Trent, although
superior, is still human. Denice is not. She has transcended all threats to
her existence even before the events we are supposed to accept as these threats
have even materialized. In a book that is supposed to rivet our attention, this
is a serious drawback.

****************
Mon, 8 Nov 93 17:12:59 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Speculation about `The Player'
--------
In message <[email protected]> Rodrick Su writes:

> It was hinted that in the late 21 century, the Peacekeeper had a
> revolt in its own rank, and the Peacekeeper's Heaven was destroyed.
>
> Any takers?

"Hinted", hell. It's explicitly stated at least once that there will
be/was an event to be termed the PeaceForcer Rebellion, the circumstances of
which will/did lead to the destruction of SpaceBase One. I haven't had access
to EE in far too long, and I need to finish tLD again before going back to tLR,
but I know it's in there somewhere. A quick conclusion for me is that PKF Elite
Commiss -- Comiss -- Kmishner -- Head Honcho Mohammed Vance is the guy behind it
all, possibly because he, through one method or another, is warned of the
imminent threat of the Sleem, and acts to protect the planet, if not the System,
from that threat. As Melissa DuBois has stated, Vance is often cast in the role
of antagonist, but I have never perceived his motives as anything but pure; at
least within his own mind.

****************
Mon, 8 Nov 93 23:46 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death
--------
> <SNAP!> THAT'S who it is! I'm rereading tLD now, and I realized that
>there are at least a couple of characters who became important to me in tLR t
>tha
>simply do not exist in tLD, and their replacements are less than exemplary.
>Melissa DuBois has CHARACTER that seems disturbingly lacking in such types as
>Gi'Tbad Eovad Dvan and Obodi Sedon (they're too damn old -- no real passion,
>although that's mildly arguable in Sedon's case). Even Robert Dazai Yo, whose

Melissa du Bois certainly does have more character than Dvan or Sedon,
although Sedon's character changes so much that it's hard to see him as the
same person at times. The Sedon who pops out of the slowtime bubble and
tortures PKF Elite De Nostri seems, to me, to have a fire inside him that
the later Sedon doesn't. The later Sedon ('Sieur Obodi) just seems to damn
inscrutable for my taste. And when he tortures Dvan, I don't see the fire
inside him as I did when he tortured De Nostri. His heart just doesn't seem
to be in it.

>presence I DO like, doesn't have any real punch (if you'll pardon) to him.
>I'm >not sure, but perhaps it's because it never really feels like any of
these >characters (the newbies in tLD) are ever a *threat* to Denice. We,
as the >readers, know damn well she doesn't die yet, as well as what she's
capable of.

Yes, but we also know that Trent doesn't die in tLR at the beginning of the
book. I will agree, though, that Trent seems mortal in a way that Denice
does not. (That seems ironic, seeing as how he's really God. :) Trent also
has human desires and failings (see his reaction when Garon destroys his
floor in tLR). Denice seems too sterile.

> Trent, by contrast, cannot look at a person, say, "Go to sleep", and t
>expec >that same would happen anytime before his target got tired. Melissa
DuBois >therefore was a *threat* to Trent. If that maser she horked from
him in the >North Bay of PeaceForcer Heaven hadn't been relieved of its
charge cartridge, >Trent would be dead, dead, dead. Elite Sgt. Garon
should have killed Trent. >Vance came closer than anyone, and will
eventually succeed. Trent, although >superior, is still human. Denice is
not. She has transcended all threats to >her existence even before the
events we are supposed to accept as these >threats >have even materialized.
In a book that is supposed to rivet our attention, s >thi >is a serious
drawback.

It may be a drawback, but the book still drew me in. (I couldn't go to
sleep until I'd finished it.)

Josh

****************
Tue, 09 Nov 1993 12:24:40 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
Okay, some more observations from my second read of Last Dancer.

Sedon's crime: "Rather than serve, I made a servant of the Flame that
lived within me, the Flame that game me my life, that taught me to Move."
(p 97-98)

Sedon: "The Flame is a thing of living creatures . . . " (p98)

Hmmm . . . sounds like the Force to me. Let's see . . . I don't have EE
handy, but I believe the Continuing Time was created within a year or
two of Star Wars coming out.

Sedon to Vance: "A Dancer is ---- priest. Judge. Keeper . . ." (p92)

If taken literally, this clarifies Denice's actions at the end. As
keeper and priest of that which gives/is life, she sees David's
addication is anti-life. So she judges him, and executes the sentence.
(Of course, he doesn't resist . . . )

An interesting point with no quote: AIs, players, and gods all have
avatars.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 09 Nov 1993 12:24:38 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death
--------
Josh writes:
>Melissa du Bois certainly does have more character than Dvan or Sedon,
>although Sedon's character changes so much that it's hard to see him as
>the same person at times. The Sedon who pops out of the slowtime bubble
>and tortures PKF Elite De Nostri seems, to me, to have a fire inside him
>that the later Sedon doesn't. The later Sedon ('Sieur Obodi) just seems
>to damn inscrutable for my taste. And when he tortures Dvan, I don't
>see the fire inside him as I did when he tortured De Nostri. His heart
>just doesn't seem to be in it.

His heart probably isn't in it. His grand cause of old had by then
degenerated into a deseperate attempt to get his "insane descendents" to
the point where they can defend against the Sleem.

>Bri writes:
>>presence I DO like, doesn't have any real punch (if you'll pardon) to
>>him. I'm not sure, but perhaps it's because it never really feels like
>>any of these characters (the newbies in tLD) are ever a *threat* to
>>Denice. We, as the readers, know damn well she doesn't die yet, as well
>>as what she's capable of.
>
>Yes, but we also know that Trent doesn't die in tLR at the beginning of
>the book. I will agree, though, that Trent seems mortal in a way that
>Denice does not. (That seems ironic, seeing as how he's really God. :)
>Trent also has human desires and failings (see his reaction when Garon
>destroys his floor in tLR). Denice seems too sterile.

I don't really see this. She's not sure what to do with her life (a very
human failing), she sleeps with her employer, she keeps an eye on
Ramirez . . .

The big differences, as I see it, are

1) Trent's book is focused solely on Trent. Denice's story needs
many details from elsewhere so that it makes sense; as a result,
it is much less focused.

2) Trent is straightforward and simple. Through most of the book,
he simply runs away with style. He knows what he wants. Denice,
by contrast, doesn't have a clue; something important is missing
from her life.

>> Trent, by contrast, cannot look at a person, say, "Go to sleep", and
>>expect that same would happen anytime before his target got tired.
>>Trent, although superior, is still human. Denice is not. She has
>>transcended all threats to her existence even before the events we are
>>supposed to accept as these threats have even materialized. In a book
>>that is supposed to rivet our attention, this is a serious drawback.

Bri, you're imagining things again. Notice that the players in Denice's
book are much more capable than those in Trent's. Sedon, in particular,
could wipe the floor with Denice in any sort of a fair fight. (Remember,
a week or two after being clincally dead, he takes out an Elite with his
bare hands in under 3.2 seconds, and he is at least partially immune to
Denice's powers.) Dvan is Sedon's match. Likewise her powers wouldn't
do her a lot of good in many situations; space combat, for instance.
Denice survives more because of her allies than because of her powers.

-Sol

ps On the other hand, Melissa du Bois is a great character. Hopefully
she'll get more time again in future books --- maybe even her own book?
(I count three books pre-Sleem war that we haven't learned anything
about yet.)

****************
Tue, 09 Nov 1993 12:24:41 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Speculation about `Players'
--------
(Note that it is "Players", not "The Player" --- probably an important
point!)

Bri writes:
>In message <[email protected]> Rodrick Su writes:
>
>> It was hinted that in the late 21 century, the Peacekeeper had a
>> revolt in its own rank, and the Peacekeeper's Heaven was destroyed.
>>
>> Any takers?
>
> "Hinted", hell. It's explicitly stated at least once that there
>will be/was an event to be termed the PeaceForcer Rebellion, the
>circumstances of which will/did lead to the destruction of SpaceBase
>One. I haven't had access to EE in far too long, and I need to finish
>tLD again before going back to tLR, but I know it's in there somewhere.
>A quick conclusion for me is that PKF Elite Commiss -- Comiss --
>Kmishner -- Head Honcho Mohammed Vance is the guy behind it all,
>possibly because he, through one method or another, is warned of the
>imminent threat of the Sleem, and acts to protect the planet, if not the
>System, from that threat. As Melissa DuBois has stated, Vance is often
>cast in the role of antagonist, but I have never perceived his motives
>as anything but pure; at least within his own mind.

Hmmm. Not clear to me that the threat of the Sleem would justify
overthrowing the government to Vance. On the other hand, if the
corruption already there that he is clearly upset with in LD continues,
I can see him overthrowing the government for that reason.

And I think that would make an _excellent_ story. The honest man
working for the wrong people sees his mistake, and sets out to correct
it. And it would fit in well with his killing Trent in "Players". (If
Vance comes to the conclusion that the UN is wrong, then he'll probably
see that Trent is largely in the right. Things work out much more
nicely if he kills Trent before that point.)

Here's hoping DKM's estimate last year was right: "Players Book Two" out
in 1995 would be really sweet.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:07:20 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: "j.c. duval" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], solomon foster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Speculation about `Players'
--------
Just a small point. Trent cannot die before 2100 unless DKM screwed up.
Which means he does not die in "Players". Why? on p. 15 of tLR, he is
mentionned as having a conversation "during the War with the Sleem" which
only occurs after "Players".

****************************************************************************
|J.C. DuVal |"Business is business, action is action."|
|M.A. English | - A saying in the Marid Audran books |
|University of Montreal |"Try to deconstruct this, Derrida: |
|[email protected]| You suck." - Anonymous |
|--------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
|"Well, thanks to our our kindness and skill, You'll have no trouble until |
| You catch your breath And the nurse will present you the bill" -Genesis |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n." -Milton |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"That's all I can say, I shall do as as much of it as I can." - Rumpole |
****************************************************************************

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:07:20 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: "j.c. duval" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], solomon foster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Speculation about `Players'
--------
Just a small point. Trent cannot die before 2100 unless DKM screwed up.
Which means he does not die in "Players". Why? on p. 15 of tLR, he is
mentionned as having a conversation "during the War with the Sleem" which
only occurs after "Players".

****************************************************************************
|J.C. DuVal |"Business is business, action is action."|
|M.A. English | - A saying in the Marid Audran books |
|University of Montreal |"Try to deconstruct this, Derrida: |
|[email protected]| You suck." - Anonymous |
|--------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
|"Well, thanks to our our kindness and skill, You'll have no trouble until |
| You catch your breath And the nurse will present you the bill" -Genesis |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n." -Milton |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"That's all I can say, I shall do as as much of it as I can." - Rumpole |
****************************************************************************

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 1993 11:11:08 -0700
****************

From: [email protected] (chris-top-her)
To: [email protected], "j.c. duval" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Speculation about `Players'
--------
I didn't see my last post hit the mailing list so I'll try this instead...

Remember that the image of Trent that talked to Denice lept outward, on a
maser beam (or some kinda communications beam). He could, theoretically,
be killed in the players, either physically or this copy of him could be
terminated. The person to whom the De Nostri historian is talking to is
not mentioned as a living, breathing human. We have seen that AI can
reproduce themselves after being transmitted (Ring is the prime example),
it is therefore possible that Trent-image end ups somewhere and is killed
in players, and the De Nostri is talking to the Trent-flesh, or the other
way around...

Chris

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 14:44 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death
--------
>>Trent also has human desires and failings (see his reaction when Garon
>>destroys his floor in tLR). Denice seems too sterile.

>I don't really see this. She's not sure what to do with her life (a very
>human failing), she sleeps with her employer, she keeps an eye on
>Ramirez . . .

She may not be sure what to do with her life, but I never got the sense that
it was REALLY important to her. She seemed too content just wandering
around. WHY does she hook up with Ripper? WHY does she sleep with him?
WHY does she keep an eye on Ramirez? I can't understand her motivations.
Trent can have the human reaction of pure rage when a valuable personal
possession is destroyed. I don't think Denice can.

>Bri, you're imagining things again. Notice that the players in Denice's
>book are much more capable than those in Trent's. Sedon, in particular,
>could wipe the floor with Denice in any sort of a fair fight. (Remember,
>a week or two after being clincally dead, he takes out an Elite with his
>bare hands in under 3.2 seconds, and he is at least partially immune to
>Denice's powers.) Dvan is Sedon's match. Likewise her powers wouldn't >do
her a lot of good in many situations; space combat, for instance. >Denice
survives more because of her allies than because of her powers.

> -Sol

I don't think Sedon could "wipe the floor" with Denice in a fair fight; I
seem to remember a passage in which DKM says that Denice moves faster than
any human being currently alive, *including* Sedon. She certainly seems to
have the upper hand in L.A.

Somehow, Denice seemed more human in tLR than in tLD. I don't know if it's
just that the focus wasn't as narrow on her as it was in tLD, but the more I
think about her, the less I feel towards her.

Josh

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 14:52 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
>Sedon: "The Flame is a thing of living creatures . . . " (p98)

>Hmmm . . . sounds like the Force to me. Let's see . . . I don't have EE
>handy, but I believe the Continuing Time was created within a year or
>two of Star Wars coming out.

Unclear. EE is copyrighted 1988. From the afterword in EE, DKM says that
he first thought up the Continuing Time when he was 13, and that he'd been
planning it since 1976. I believe Star Wars came out in 1977. Who knows?
Let's find DKM and ask him.

>An interesting point with no quote: AIs, players, and gods all have
>avatars.

> -Sol

I don't know if any of you have read Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, but in
that book, hackers' Images in cyberspace are called avatars. Stephenson
makes some mention of a Japanese virtual reality system which originated the
term. Makes for interesting speculation.

Josh

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 15:34:04 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
> Let's find DKM and ask him.

What a splendid idea? Anyone with access to him think he might like to
jump on the list?

****************
Tue, 09 Nov 1993 16:34:55 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Last Dancer
--------
[Ack! Please don't send replies to both me personally and the mailing
list --- I've been getting three copies of this entire discussion. (One
from list, one to me, one bouncing off list.)]

Josh writes:
>Sol writes:
>>Josh writes:
>>>Trent also has human desires and failings (see his reaction when Garon
>>>destroys his floor in tLR). Denice seems too sterile.
>
>>I don't really see this. She's not sure what to do with her life (a very
>>human failing), she sleeps with her employer, she keeps an eye on
>>Ramirez . . .
>
>She may not be sure what to do with her life, but I never got the sense
>that it was REALLY important to her. She seemed too content just
>wandering around.

Yes, but being content wandering around _is_ a human trait.

More to the point, she's not content wandering around --- she just
doesn't know what she should do. I don't know, maybe I identify more
with her because I understand what she's going through. I'm doing it
myself at the moment, to some extent. There are several very different
directions my life could take from this point, and I'm not sure which
one would truly be best.

>WHY does she hook up with Ripper?

Because he seems the best fast way to add meaning to her life. This
entire book is really about her trying to give her life some meaning.
She leaves the Goddess Home because it has not given her this meaning.
She hooks up with Ripper to try to add meaning; when that leaves her
unsatisified, she takes up worrying about Ramirez. This leads her to
join the grand cause of rebellion, followed by the grand Sedon-hunt.
Finally she becomes a Dancer, and her quest for meaning is over.

>WHY does she sleep with him?

Much harder to say. Any takers? (We know he loves her. Does she love
him?)

>WHY does she keep an eye on Ramirez?

Because he's her friend. ('Sides, she promised Trent.)

>I can't understand her motivations.

They're really not that inscrutible. They just don't hit you over the
head, like Trent's do.

>Trent can have the human reaction of pure rage when a valuable personal
>possession is destroyed. I don't think Denice can.

So?

>>Bri, you're imagining things again. Notice that the players in Denice's
>>book are much more capable than those in Trent's. Sedon, in particular,
>>could wipe the floor with Denice in any sort of a fair fight. (Remember,
>>a week or two after being clincally dead, he takes out an Elite with his
>>bare hands in under 3.2 seconds, and he is at least partially immune to
>>Denice's powers.) Dvan is Sedon's match. Likewise her powers wouldn't >do
>her a lot of good in many situations; space combat, for instance. >Denice
>survives more because of her allies than because of her powers.
>
>I don't think Sedon could "wipe the floor" with Denice in a fair fight;
>I seem to remember a passage in which DKM says that Denice moves faster
>than any human being currently alive, *including* Sedon. She certainly
>seems to have the upper hand in L.A.

What, when Denice is amazed to survive, and Ramirez lasers Sedon? Ralf
and Ramirez save Denice there. (She returns the favor for Ramirez
moments later, of course, taking out the "normal" enemy after he has
taken out the extraordinary.) Later in the book she seems to have the
upper hand, but that is as appropriate for someone who has grown over
the course of a book.

**********************************************************

>Sedon: "The Flame is a thing of living creatures . . . " (p98)

>>Hmmm . . . sounds like the Force to me. Let's see . . . I don't have EE
>>handy, but I believe the Continuing Time was created within a year or
>>two of Star Wars coming out.
>
>Unclear. EE is copyrighted 1988. From the afterword in EE, DKM says that
>he first thought up the Continuing Time when he was 13, and that he'd been
>planning it since 1976. I believe Star Wars came out in 1977. Who knows?
>Let's find DKM and ask him.

Sounds good to me.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 09 Nov 1993 20:22:27 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
Even more observations from my second read of Last Dancer. (Boy, this
is much more fun than homework.)

One more point from Sedon's imprisonment: "By sheer force of will Sedon
held down the surge of rage at the abruptness of the questions; the
creature could not know the impudence of its question. He answered with
the name of his Name, a suitable answer for a barbarian: `I am Sedon of
the Gi'Suei.'" (p 90) [I'm still trying to figure out the exact
relationship between names and Names.]

Weird note: "I am the Name Storyteller. I sit at the edge of reality
and watch my past . . . " (p155) [The "edge of reality"? Could this
be Denice's black plane?]

Storyteller: "Then she Moves, like the Dancer she is." (p156) [Is he
getting his tenses mixed up, or is Denice already a Dancer this early in
the book . . . before accepting the flame?]

Trent and Mahliya Kutura --- a good pair even if her lyrics suck.

The painting: ". . . a river of blood running through a deeper red
jungle . . ." "It's a painting a stole once . . . I'm going to steal it
again some day." (p162) [A. This painting sounds real familar. I
thought it was the painting on Mayor Noas's wall in LR, but it's not.
B. So, will Trent steal it in AI War or Revolution?]

Denice's motives: "It struck her again, without warning, the horrible
emptiness that came upon her so often these days. She sat alone in her
office and thought about Jimmy Ramirez saying, `I love you.'
"She found herself coming to her feet; tried to remember whether she
knew anything that could, in the hands of the Rebs, damage Douglass
Ripper. She had difficulty ordering her thoughts, but she could not
think of anything at the moment. <If they can't hurt him, I can go.>"
(p167)

[Note: I think LD could have used better editting. There are lots of
typos, and some bits which could probably have been done better. One
more complaint against Bantam Spectra . . . (Two more SF magazines
since my last complaint, still no LD ads or reviews.)]

Two things pertaining to our discussion last week about Ring's motives:

No quote: After Ring encounters Obodi, the probability he gives of
success jumps from 3% to 12%. (p176) This is aparently _only_ because
of Obodi himself, and maybe nukes.

Come to think of it, why does Ring with the Claw? You'd think Mr.
Protect America would work with the primarily American Rebs, no?

Vance: "There are enemies with the Unifaction itself. At the very
highest levels." (p179)

Finally, concerning Trent's post-being-killed survival: ". . . that
slimy clone of a . . ." (p191)

-Sol

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:25:12 CST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
>[Note: I think LD could have used better editting. There are lots of
>typos, and some bits which could probably have been done better. One
>more complaint against Bantam Spectra . . . (Two more SF magazines
>since my last complaint, still no LD ads or reviews.)]

There's an ad in the November _Locus_.

-Erich

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 20:25:12 CST
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
>[Note: I think LD could have used better editting. There are lots of
>typos, and some bits which could probably have been done better. One
>more complaint against Bantam Spectra . . . (Two more SF magazines
>since my last complaint, still no LD ads or reviews.)]

There's an ad in the November _Locus_.

-Erich

****************
Tue, 09 Nov 1993 21:38:17 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
Erich writes:
>>[Note: I think LD could have used better editting. There are lots of
>>typos, and some bits which could probably have been done better. One
>>more complaint against Bantam Spectra . . . (Two more SF magazines
>>since my last complaint, still no LD ads or reviews.)]
>
>There's an ad in the November _Locus_.

Yeah, I just read it myself. (Must have come in to the bookstore
very recently.) Doesn't really tell you anything about the book,
but it is an ad.

-Sol

ps Who is D.C. Fontana, anyway?

****************
Wed, 10 Nov 93 12:47:45 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Paintings
--------
Let's see:
Mayor Noas (LR) had the cat on the tile floor with the doll in
its mouth.

Devlin the police chief (LR) had the easter egg on the "laser straight"
highway.

Did the river of blood painting get mentioned in LR as the
painting being stolen from a safe in the art gallery?
--> Trent was applying liquid nitrogen along with a torch
to a sample safe that had superconductors lined through it
with a heat sensor that set off an alarm. Middle of the book?

(:
Wesley

****************
Wed, 10 Nov 1993 17:39:40 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Paintings
--------
Wes writes:
>Let's see:
>Mayor Noas (LR) had the cat on the tile floor with the doll in
>its mouth.
>
>Devlin the police chief (LR) had the easter egg on the "laser straight"
>highway.
>
>Did the river of blood painting get mentioned in LR as the
>painting being stolen from a safe in the art gallery?
>--> Trent was applying liquid nitrogen along with a torch
>to a sample safe that had superconductors lined through it
>with a heat sensor that set off an alarm. Middle of the book?

Nope, page 65 (LR), bottom.

Nice pointer . . .

:)
Sol

****************
Wed, 10 Nov 93 19:38:55 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Paintings
--------
In message <[email protected]> Solomon Foster writes:

> Nope, page 65 (LR), bottom.
>
> Nice pointer . . .

Yeah. I remembered that one off the top of my head (well, certainly not
the page num or anything like that), but Wes got there first. Remember, Trent
says, "Someday, I'm going to steal it AGAIN." (my bolds)

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:12:16 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected],
Subject: Re: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
On Tue, 9 Nov 1993, Solomon Foster wrote:

> >[Note: I think LD could have used better editting. There are lots of
> >typos, and some bits which could probably have been done better. One

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly LD could have been a whole lot
better if someone had got their sh t together and proof read it properly.
In parts it got downright confusing because of the shoddy editing.

Skippy

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:14:50 -0500
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
--------
>Lady Ola is a nightface, and works for UEI (as do all the nightfaces, I
>think). She is a killer. She created the most devastating of all known
>hand-to-hand combat weapons. In DKM's timeline, we have:

how do you know this stuff? are you reading books i haven't seen?
or are you close personal friends with dkm?

mike

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:52:28 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
--------
In message <[email protected]>you write:
>>Lady Ola is a nightface, and works for UEI (as do all the nightfaces, I
>>think). She is a killer. She created the most devastating of all known
>>hand-to-hand combat weapons. In DKM's timeline, we have:
>
>how do you know this stuff? are you reading books i haven't seen?

Info on Ola is in Emerald Eye somewhere, I think. I knew it,
anyway, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't in Last Dancer, and I'm
not close personal friends with DKM. (Reading the books multiple
times really, really helps.)

On the other hand, unless we are using a really broad definition
of "works for", I don't think we can say all nightfaces work
for UEI. (I mean, there are six on Earth in the time of LD, and
UEI doesn't exist yet.) I also don't recall Ola working for
UEI, though I could be terribly wrong on this. (Wonder if my
parents could find my copy of EE and bring it up for me when
they come to the Ohio State game?)

-Sol

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 93 9:03:03 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
--------
>how do you know this stuff? are you reading books i haven't seen?
>or are you close personal friends with dkm?

Nope, reading the same books you are. EE and tLR more than a dozen times
each by now.

Sean.

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 15:37:36 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Speculation about 'Players'
--------
In message <[email protected]> Solomon Foster writes:

>
> And I think that would make an _excellent_ story. The honest man
> working for the wrong people sees his mistake, and sets out to correct
> it. And it would fit in well with his killing Trent in "Players". (If
> Vance comes to the conclusion that the UN is wrong, then he'll probably
> see that Trent is largely in the right. Things work out much more
> nicely if he kills Trent before that point.)

I'm with Sol on this one. It's gotta be Vance, for whatever reason, and
the "make a wrong right" story is a definite fave of mine. It would also
provide another meaty character around whom to build one book, like LR.

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 15:36:21 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent's Death
--------
From: "Brian Wells/Dave Brodek" <brod0025>
Date: Tue, Nov 9, 1993 3:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent's Death

In message <[email protected]> Solomon Foster writes:

> Notice that the players in Denice's
> book are much more capable than those in Trent's. Sedon, in particular,
> could wipe the floor with Denice in any sort of a fair fight. (Remember,
> a week or two after being clincally dead, he takes out an Elite with his
> bare hands in under 3.2 seconds, and he is at least partially immune to
> Denice's powers.) Dvan is Sedon's match. Likewise her powers wouldn't
> do her a lot of good in many situations; space combat, for instance.
> Denice survives more because of her allies than because of her powers.

You've got a point, Sol, but I'd still bet money on Denice. Sedon has to
Speak or physically Touch, Denice can simply Think. Even accounting for Sedon's
supposed immunity, He's still less of a threat to Denice than Vance is to Trent.
<Sigh> I'm not sure about this, but even though Denice does need help to
survive, even her allies are rather lackluster, with the notable exception of
Ralf. Robert doesn't do a heck of a lot before getting amputated by a building
along with Vance, he's kind of like window dressing. Trent had ONE friend
through tLR upon whom he could absolutely depend, and even though somewhat
overconfident in acquiring other people's help, at least he didn't simply assume
that he was better than his help and therefore ENTITLED to it, by some divine
right. This is the sense I get from Denice. I could be imagining it, but I get
the feeling she took her father's last words to her a little too seriously.
There's an arrogance about her that just rubs me the wrong way.

And, yes, upon rereading, I do get much more of her simply being lost in
her life and looking for a cause or something, but it still ends up ringing
hollow.

****************
Tue, 9 Nov 93 22:53 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Emerald Eyes
--------
I just got my hands on a copy of EE, and I've some questions after having
just reread it... (1) When DKM describes the dark crystal plain, he says
that there are lights far off in the distance, so far that none of the
telepaths have tried to reach them. Could those lights be the sleem? (2)
When Carl goes to reclaim the twins, he stands for a long time outside the
door, then blows it in. He then sees Carson and the twins, and Carson
shoots him. Why doesn't Carl just paralyze Carson? (3) The Name
Storyteller says that he never had the chance to touch Trent. But doesn't
he do just that, when he takes over Corona at Halfway? Or am I getting my
gods confused? Thanks a lot...

Josh

****************
Wed, 10 Nov 1993 02:40:27 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: simon cardinale <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: denice
--------
Her love for Ripper is pretty poorly explained. I mean all of a sudden
she's in his bed, then says she loves him, and there's not much apparent
reason. Unless there's more explanation of this later I'm not going to
buy their marriage (which happens who knows when...)

He seems barely above squid in most ways. Compared to Trent he's
not even a mollusk.

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:21:33 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (ct)
Subject: Trent's Escape
--------
It occurs to me that perhaps, just perhaps, that on this list we're making a few assumptions. The first of these would seem to be that DKM wouldn't lie to us in his posts. This to me seems a pretty big assumption. After all, he is a writer and he does live off his work. If everyone knew what was going to happen in his books then there would be less reason to buy them. If he sets up false
lines of thought then there'll be mass speculation on his work and more people
will buy his books to find out whether or not they are right. Call me a cynic
if you will (and Comrade will), but I don't think we can yet say with any
certainty that Vance kills Trent (whether permanently or not) or indeed that
Trent doesn't come back at the very end of things. Ok, he may not come back as
the Ultimate Webdancer (I think that's Camber) but he may come back at some
other time in some other form (I think probably after the wheel of existence is
broken)
Second of such assumptions is that Trent did not in fact walk through a
wall. Yes it may indeed have been a hologram, yes Vance might tell Trent that
he figured out it was a hologram just before killing him (or someone else that
looks like him or a clone or something. After all, anyone could be Trent. All
you have to do is say "I'm Trent. Catch me if you can" and millions of PKF run
after you seeking glory). But none of this actually means that he didn't walk
through a wall. Remember, he does come from a strange genetic line and he's
never been comprehensively tested. If he could walk through walls, no one
would ever know until he did it. Plus he may just be an Envoy of Balance and
even gods don't know what they can do. Yes it may have been a hologram but it
doesn't have to have been. Occam's razor, I wouldn't slit my wrists with it.

Just some things to bear in mind.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:35:20 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (ct)
Subject: Continuing Time
--------
Ok, lots of speculation going on about Trent, Trent's death, Trent's
resurrection, what Trent stole, when he stole it etc but what about some
really wild speculation. As to say, the nature of the continuing time itself-
lots of people talk about it but what the damn thing is no one knows. Or maybe
as to whether the Zaradin and the Sarathin are actually the same race before
and after the great chaining (or indeed any other time).
My first thought was that the continuing time was that period
constantly in flux due to various people playing around with events since they
had time travel. But then I got to thinking (strangely enough). What if the
great chaining was actually something in the manner of a loop in time so that
at some point in the future everything becomes the past. The new human race
becomes the old, the Zaradin become the Sarathin (or the other way around) and
events just repeat themselves, except of course that time-travellers can
meddle with them. This would seem to better fit the idea of a Great Wheel of
existence and would also explain why certain people want to break out of the
damn thing (if what DKM says is true :) ). It also has the virtue of
explaining just why it is that the Name Storyteller is so puzzled by the fact
that Trent actually disappears from the continuing time shortly after his
death (God knows which one, or probably doesn't, any of them).

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Wed, 10 Nov 93 21:26:49 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
In message <[email protected]> Solomon Foster writes:

> Weird note: "I am the Name Storyteller. I sit at the edge of reality
> and watch my past . . . " (p155) [The "edge of reality"? Could this
> be Denice's black plane?]

Nice one, Sol. This sounds fairly plausible to me
>
> Trent and Mahliya Kutura --- a good pair even if her lyrics suck.

And, Oh! Do her lyrics suck!
>
> Two things pertaining to our discussion last week about Ring's motives:
>
> No quote: After Ring encounters Obodi, the probability he gives of
> success jumps from 3% to 12%. (p176) This is aparently _only_ because
> of Obodi himself, and maybe nukes.
>
> Come to think of it, why does Ring with the Claw? You'd think Mr.
> Protect America would work with the primarily American Rebs, no?
>
Sure, but the operative word there is "primarily". Obodi rises to lead the
Rebs, Ring works with Obodi but probably doesn't trust him any further than
Obodi trusts people named Boone. Ring may have reached the conclusion that the
best way to Protect America is to bring down the Unification. The Erisian Claw
strives for this as well, so Ring works with the Claw, to an extent.
>
> Finally, concerning Trent's post-being-killed survival: ". . . that
> slimy clone of a . . ." (p191)

Bingbingbing! This works for me, too.

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 1993 00:21:55 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: marcus eubanks <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: the Prophet Harry.
--------
Can anyone tell me anything about the prophet Harry other than the little
we get in tLR and tLD?

"Jesus & Harry girl, get a life!"

Is there any truth to the rumor that _Armageddon Blues_ and _The Ring_
(which I have been totally unable to get a hold of) are part of The
Continuing Time?

Marcus Eubanks N3ETR | "Say it with a brick," I say.
<[email protected]> | -Ignatz Mouse, 1922
|
Temple U. Sch. of Medicine 1996 | "There is a heppy lend fur-fur
Philadelphia, PA USA | a-waaaaay-" -Krazy Kat, 1922

****************
Wed, 10 Nov 93 21:33:48 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: the Prophet Harry.
--------
>Is there any truth to the rumor that _Armageddon Blues_ and _The Ring_
>(which I have been totally unable to get a hold of) are part of The
>Continuing Time?

No. _The Armageddon Blues_ is part of The Great Wheel of Existance.
_The Ring_ is almost completely unrelated, not being a DKM-created work
at all. (He did make it a bit related, but not enough to really care
about.)

The Great Wheel of Existance is explained in _The Last Dancer_, and
a graph of it is showin at the back of the book.

Sean.

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 93 16:24:04 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: denice
--------
In message <[email protected]> Simon
Cardinale writes:
> Her love for Ripper is pretty poorly explained. I mean all of a sudden
> she's in his bed, then says she loves him, and there's not much apparent
> reason. Unless there's more explanation of this later I'm not going to
> buy their marriage (which happens who knows when...)
>
> He seems barely above squid in most ways. Compared to Trent he's
> not even a mollusk.

Why? Because he's a politician? True, that's a strike against anyone's
character, as is being lousy in bed, I suppose. However, the only thing
potentially reprehensible I see in him in LD is his unwillingness to let Denice
go to help Jimmy, and that's not really even a decision of ethics. If anything,
it can be argued that Ripper was even "in the right" because Denice's decision
to leave was a continuation of her own interminable waffling about what to do
with herself.

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 93 16:26:42 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
In message <[email protected]> Andrew
McColl writes:

> I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly LD could have been a whole lot
> better if someone had got their sh t together and proof read it properly.
> In parts it got downright confusing because of the shoddy editing.

As opposed to the flawless job of proofreading on your response. ;)

Here endeth the tangent.

****************
Sat, 13 Nov 1993 00:32:59 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: simon cardinale <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice
--------
On Thu, 11 Nov 1993, Josh Kaderlan wrote:

> > Why? Because he's a politician? True, that's a strike against anyone's
> >character, as is being lousy in bed, I suppose. However, the only thing
> >potentially reprehensible I see in him in LD is his unwillingness to let
> >Denice
> >go to help Jimmy, and that's not really even a decision of ethics. If ,
> >anything
> >it can be argued that Ripper was even "in the right" because Denice's decision
> >to leave was a continuation of her own interminable waffling about what to do
> >with herself.
>
>
> I don't think Simon was criticizing Ripper because he's a politician; I
> don't even think it was much of a criticism. What I took Simon to mean was
> that Ripper's got the character of a squid. And correct me if I'm wrong
> (and I know you will, Dan), but isn't a squid a mollusc? Or am I confusing
> my phyla again?
>
> Josh

You've got it right, Josh.
Here's my point. He's not a terrible person. but compared to the other
characters he's not well developed (no pun intended...) and he's not all
that interesting.

I guess what I object to is the fact that the whole thing is just
thrown at us. I appreciate the slight shock value of seeing that they're
sleeping together, but after that Moran should have elaborated on why she
cares for him. Instead we get him bawling her out (maybe justifiably) and
it's stated that he's a selfish lover, and most selfish lovers are going
to be selfish people in general.

****************
Sat, 13 Nov 93 15:34:23 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Stuff...
--------
Greg said:
"Second of such assumptions is that Trent did not in fact walk through a wall."

This confuses me because in LR, Trent is explicitly confused when
he does not find a guard at the airlock, and then reflects on the shout
of "We've got him!" that he heard earlier (gathering the Elite at the
conference room where "Trent" walked through a wall). Had Trent
actually BEEN in the conference room, he would have known exactly what
that shout was about when he heard it in the first place. The context clues
Moran uses in that passage seem unequivocal in saying that Trent hadn't
been in the conference room at all - but I'm sure someone will tell
me Moran did that on purpose (deliberately misleading) to spark controversy.

Brian said:
"it can be argued that Ripper was even in the right because..."

Forget argued - I think that both when Ripper was pissed at his
bodyguards' (plural) lack of concentration and when he told
his EMPLOYEE (Denice) that he couldn't spare her instant and
unannounced vacation time that he was COMPLETELY in the right - irregardless
of what you think of his character/morals. Furthermore, considering
the rude way that Denice went about "requesting" the vacation, you might
think (i.e. I do) that she was deliberately antagonizing him to
put herself in a situation where she felt "justified" in quitting/leaving.

(:
Wesley

****************
Sat, 13 Nov 93 17:06:34 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: denice/ Ola Blue
--------
In message <[email protected]> Simon
Cardinale writes:
>
> You've got it right, Josh.
> Here's my point. He's not a terrible person. but compared to the other
> characters he's not well developed (no pun intended...) and he's not all
> that interesting.
>
> I guess what I object to is the fact that the whole thing is just
> thrown at us. I appreciate the slight shock value of seeing that they're
> sleeping together, but after that Moran should have elaborated on why she
> cares for him. Instead we get him bawling her out (maybe justifiably) and
> it's stated that he's a selfish lover, and most selfish lovers are going
> to be selfish people in general.

Ahh. The plot thins. Thanks. Indeed, there is far too much simply, as
you put it, "thrown at us" in the whole darn book. I had thought that rating
barely above a squid was a character evaluation of ethical bent, rather than of
interest value. My mistake. Sorry.

You know, though, there is at least one squid out there who is actually
rather irrationally riveting in its character...

In other news -- I just reread Long Run for the jillionth time. Who the
epithetting HECK is Ola Blue? Apparently she rates as one of the Four Really
Hip Legends, along with Trent, Camber Tremodian, and Daniel November. She is
also supposed to be pure pain, sorrow, and death. So who is she? Was it on
that giganto-mongous posting that DKM spat out a while back? If so, it would be
a Keen Deal if that were to find its way onto this list.

****************
Sat, 13 Nov 93 18:15:55 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
--------
> In other news -- I just reread Long Run for the jillionth time. Who the
>epithetting HECK is Ola Blue? Apparently she rates as one of the Four Really
>Hip Legends, along with Trent, Camber Tremodian, and Daniel November. She is
>also supposed to be pure pain, sorrow, and death. So who is she? Was it on
>that giganto-mongous posting that DKM spat out a while back? If so, it would be
>a Keen Deal if that were to find its way onto this list.

Lady Ola is a nightface, and works for UEI (as do all the nightfaces, I
think). She is a killer. She created the most devastating of all known
hand-to-hand combat weapons. In DKM's timeline, we have:

"The Always Rising of the Night"...........2468 to 2501
(Being the true story of Our Lady of
Nightways, Ola Blue, who was Lady Blue,
who was Leiacan of Eastersea.)

Like Camber, I suspect that rather terrible things happen to her, and
that is why she is pain, and sorrow, and death.

I suspect she is not a person you'd want to come across :).

Sean.

****************
Sun, 14 Nov 93 21:31:15 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: critical question
--------
There's been a fair amount on the list about how Denice (and, in fact,
many of the other characters in tLD) is poorly defined.

My question is: is it a result of poor writing on DKM's part, or
just him choosing a lousy set of characters to try to involve us in?

Sean.

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 93 13:11:27 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:52:28 -0500
>From: Solomon Foster <[email protected]>
>
>In message <[email protected]>you write:
>>>Lady Ola is a nightface, and works for UEI (as do all the nightfaces, I
>>>think). She is a killer. She created the most devastating of all known
>>>hand-to-hand combat weapons. In DKM's timeline, we have:
>>
>>how do you know this stuff? are you reading books i haven't seen?
>
>Info on Ola is in Emerald Eye somewhere, I think. I knew it,
>anyway, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't in Last Dancer, and I'm
>not close personal friends with DKM. (Reading the books multiple
>times really, really helps.)

I think the most illuminating passage occurs in EE, around the point
where Carl and Malko are driving down the highway in Carl's car, and
are attacked from behind by another car with a very big laser mounted
in it. First you get the description of the attack from Carl's point
of view; sometime after that Storyteller describes his part in the
event.

Just before the attack, Storyteller and Camber appear on opposite
sides of the highway. Camber tries to use his IR (see below) to
destroy Carl's car, and is foiled by Storyteller. It is at this point
that Storyteller describes the IR and gives some info on Lady Ola, who
invented it.

IR is an acronym for Imladsen (? don't remember exact spelling) Relay.
Imladsen is then name of a 23rd century scientist who discovers the
"nullgrav nexus." Lady Ola's contribution was to capture the nullgrav
nexus in the form of a force-sword, thereby creating the IR, sometime
in the 26th century.

All of the above is from memory, and so is most likely wrong. If
there are requests, I can quote chapter and verse once I get home...

>On the other hand, unless we are using a really broad definition
>of "works for", I don't think we can say all nightfaces work
>for UEI. (I mean, there are six on Earth in the time of LD, and
>UEI doesn't exist yet.) I also don't recall Ola working for
>UEI, though I could be terribly wrong on this. (Wonder if my
>parents could find my copy of EE and bring it up for me when
>they come to the Ohio State game?)

Obviously, no one can work for an organization that doesn't exist. I
think it may be possible to say that during the term of UEI's
existance, all of Earth's night faces worked for it. However, even
that may not betrue. At one point Storyteller says something to the
effect of "...[Ola], whose name is no longer spoken in the halls of
UEI...." I take that to mean that she either left or was kicked out.
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 1993 10:52:51 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: joel isaac singer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (dkm mailing list)
Subject: Confusion
--------
I'm not sure about this, from reading tLD, but are Camber Tremodian and
the Nameless One, the God of Players, one and the same entity? (Apologies
if you've already worked this through, I joined the list just a few days
ago...)

Joel Singer Stanford University [email protected]
The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 93 12:16:33 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (rob mace)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Nathan
--------
Josh writes:
> And now for something completely different... In EE, there is
> mention of an important Speedfreak by the name of Nathan Denver. Anybody
> want to hazard a totally unsubstantiated guess as to whether or not Nathan
> Denver is Nathan Two Clouds?

Why do you say that this is totally unsubstantiated? In LR we find out the
Nathan Two Clouds was one of the speed freaks that survided. At least that
is what I remember. I would say that it is damb likely they are the same
person. Especially considering Moran's style of connecting things.

Rob Mace

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 93 12:34:14 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (rob mace)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: critical question
--------
> >There's been a fair amount on the list about how Denice (and, in fact,
> >many of the other characters in tLD) is poorly defined.
>
> >My question is: is it a result of poor writing on DKM's part, or
> >just him choosing a lousy set of characters to try to involve us in?
>
> I'm not sure if I'd characterize DKM's writing as *bad*, but I don't think
> his characterization in tLD was up to the standards he set in EE and tLR.
> In both of those books, he came out with some really vivid characters, and I
> don't think that the major characters in tLD lived up to those standards.
> DKM's characterization of Trent was on target, and so was Neil Corona. But
> somehow Denice doesn't strike me the way those two do, and neither does
> Sedon. I'm in the middle of re-reading tLD, and while some of my earlier
> criticisms don't seem quite on target, I still feel the same way about
> others.

Except in the case of Ripper, I thinks that DKM's characterizations in tLD
were up to the standards he set in EE and tLR. I just think that a lot
of the characters were boring snots when compared to Trent. And DKM does
a good job of portraying them as such.

Take Devon for an example. What do you expect of a man that would spend
millenia single mindedly tacking down fugatives. Personally I think a man
that could do that would be boring. And that is just how he comes across.

Denice I also think is well characterized. She is just not someone I would
ever want to meet.

So I think the idea of the cast of tLD being a lousy set of characters is
more on the mark. At least they are a lousy set from the standpoint of
riveting the readers attention. Although I did like the Medbot a lot.

Rob

****************
Thu, 11 Nov 93 23:48 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice
--------
> Why? Because he's a politician? True, that's a strike against anyone's
>character, as is being lousy in bed, I suppose. However, the only thing
>potentially reprehensible I see in him in LD is his unwillingness to let
>Denice
>go to help Jimmy, and that's not really even a decision of ethics. If ,
>anything
>it can be argued that Ripper was even "in the right" because Denice's decision
>to leave was a continuation of her own interminable waffling about what to do
>with herself.

I don't think Simon was criticizing Ripper because he's a politician; I
don't even think it was much of a criticism. What I took Simon to mean was
that Ripper's got the character of a squid. And correct me if I'm wrong
(and I know you will, Dan), but isn't a squid a mollusc? Or am I confusing
my phyla again?

Josh

****************
Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:41:21 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected] (brian wells/dave brodek)
Subject: Re: More LD observations (spoilers!)
--------
>
> In message <[email protected]> Andrew
> McColl writes:
>
> > I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly LD could have been a whole lot
> > better if someone had got their sh t together and proof read it properly.
> > In parts it got downright confusing because of the shoddy editing.
>
>
> As opposed to the flawless job of proofreading on your response. ;)
>
> Here endeth the tangent.
>
>
Fool! Can't you tell he did this merely for effect.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 1993 13:30:14 -0500
****************

From: [email protected] (mike rosenberg)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
--------
obviously, it's time for me to reread EE. it's been a while.

mike

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 93 13:32:23 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: denice/ Ola Blue
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 13:30:14 -0500
>From: [email protected] (Mike Rosenberg)
>
>obviously, it's time for me to reread EE. it's been a while.

I was surprised at how some things in EE made a lot more sense after
reading LD... :)
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Mon, 15 Nov 93 14:43 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: critical question
--------
>There's been a fair amount on the list about how Denice (and, in fact,
>many of the other characters in tLD) is poorly defined.

>My question is: is it a result of poor writing on DKM's part, or
>just him choosing a lousy set of characters to try to involve us in?

I'm not sure if I'd characterize DKM's writing as *bad*, but I don't think
his characterization in tLD was up to the standards he set in EE and tLR.
In both of those books, he came out with some really vivid characters, and I
don't think that the major characters in tLD lived up to those standards.
DKM's characterization of Trent was on target, and so was Neil Corona. But
somehow Denice doesn't strike me the way those two do, and neither does
Sedon. I'm in the middle of re-reading tLD, and while some of my earlier
criticisms don't seem quite on target, I still feel the same way about
others. And now for something completely different... In EE, there is
mention of an important Speedfreak by the name of Nathan Denver. Anybody
want to hazard a totally unsubstantiated guess as to whether or not Nathan
Denver is Nathan Two Clouds?

Josh

****************
Tue, 16 Nov 93 16:20:03 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Nathan
--------
Actually, I believe Nathan's last name is Dark Clouds, rather than Two
Clouds.

I'd say, "pronoun trouble", but it doesn't really fit.

However, I will repeat my call for the ultra-posting of Moran's -- anyone
have it handy?

****************
Tue, 16 Nov 93 14:46:15 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Nathan
--------
> Actually, I believe Nathan's last name is Dark Clouds, rather than Two
>Clouds.

Yes.

> However, I will repeat my call for the ultra-posting of Moran's -- anyone
>have it handy?

You mean the timeline? Here are his two postings, found on an archive
site (forget where). Oh, they're edited somewhat because there were
non-ASCII characters in them.

D A N I E L K E Y S M O R A N
P.O. Box 667
Van Nuys, CA 91408
*********NEWS RELEASE*********
August 13, 1992

Okay, in response to the questions, for those of you
who asked. (This is a very lengthy document; if you
wish to download it rather than read it on-line, it
*may* be available on your system as CONTTIME.TXT).

1). There is a new Continuing Time novel. It's called
"The Last Dancer," and it's set principally in
2076, though there is a lengthy section set 50,000
years in the past. The book is principally about
Denice Castanaveras, during a TriCentennial
Rebellion. Trent is in the book for about one
hundred pages; as I said, it's mostly Denice's
story.

"The Last Dancer" expands the stage on which events
are taking place; you'll finally learn something
substantial about the Continuing Time at large, as
opposed to learning only about post-Unification
Earth.

The book is more than twice as long as "The Long
Run", which is part of why it took as long to write
as it did. Also I got divorced midway through it;
and then my editor had a baby, so she couldn't edit
it for about five months; and then Bantam fired
her, along with a whole bunch of other people . . .

The upshot is that "The Last Dancer" is completed,
Bantam has it and has paid for it; but the book may
not see publication for nine months or a year,
until Bantam has the first draft of the *next*
Continuing Time novel in hand.

You will *never* have to wait this long again for a
new book from me. My promise to everyone who wrote
. . . and wrote . . . and wrote . . .

2. The Continuing Time novel I'm currently at work on
is "Lord November: The Man-Spacething War." It's
set in approximately 2680, six hundred years after
the Trent/Denice stories. It's another very big
novel, and the first Continuing Time novel that's
really *set* out in the Continuing Time. Its
principal characters are Tyrel November, one of
Denice Castanaveras' descendants, and Bodhisatva
Sill, a Pinkerton Agent who also happens to be a
Trentist, a member of the Exodus Church, aka "The
Church of His Return."

"Once there was a thief, and the thief was God..."

I think you'll like it.

3. There are two more novels coming about the Trent
you have come to know and argue over. Unlike "Last
Dancer," Trent will have about as much time on
stage as in "The Long Run." The two books are due
soon after "Lord November" -- and I do mean soon.
They'll be published pretty much back to back.

"You say you want a Revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world."
Lennon & McCartney
COMING IN 1994:
THE DISCOVERY OF STAR TRAVEL,
THE PASSING OF AN ERA,
AND THE END OF THE STORY OF
MOHAMMED VANCE,
DENICE CASTANAVERAS,
AND
TRENT THE UNCATCHABLE
P L A Y E R S:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Book One: The AI War
Book Two: Revolution

4. And to close, some news about "The Long Run," and
"Emerald Eyes," the novels that got everyone's
attention in the first place.

A. There is a "Long Run" screenplay. It's being
shopped around Hollywood as we speak. It covers
events in both "Emerald Eyes" and "The Long Run."
Copies are available directly from yours truly at
$80 a pop. $40 of this goes to either AIDS
Project L.A., or RLA (Rebuild L.A.). The other
$40 is approximately what it costs me (time and
expense) to have a copy of the screenplay
printed, bound, and mailed. (You get to decide
which of those two worthy causes your extra $40
goes to.) Receipts will show contribution.

B. Copies of EE and TLR. *Damn* good question. If
anyone out there finds a place where they can
buy copies, let me know. I'd be interested.

On a (slightly) more optimistic note, my editor
said that Bantam would be re-issuing EE & TLR
when "The Last Dancer" comes out. Of course, this
was right before they fired her....

Several people have requested that I make EE &
TLR available as data files -- a sort of literary
"shareware." I actually find this an attractive
idea, and I'm thinking of releasing some short
Continuing Time fiction this way -- write if
you're interested -- but for EE & TLR, I can't.
Except for screenplay rights, Bantam essentially
owns those novels -- I was 24 and naive when I
signed those contracts.

Inevitably all fiction will be available
digitally; I'm disinclined to fight the
inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing,
which I don't.

C. R. Talsorian Games is currently negotiating with
Bantam for the rights to do a "Long Run" module
for their "Cyberpunk" RPG. RTG seems serious, but
I have no idea if anything will come of it; I'd
like to see it happen, but Bantam controls the
game rights to TLR, not me.

This does not mean there will not be a
"Continuing Time" based RPG, even one with Trent
in it; however, it may be based on scenarios from
"The Last Dancer" or "The AI War," stories to
which I control the rights.

D. Capstone Studios, a startup graphics company in
L.A., run by John Dismukes & Geoff Miller,
is by an odd coincidence also currently
negotiating with Bantam for the rights to do a
"Long Run" graphic novel. Once again, I have no
idea if anything will come of this, and it's out
of my hands. *However,* it looks very likely that
"The AI War," the next Trent book, *will* be done
as a graphic novel, possibly even before book
publication, regardless of whether or not "The
Long Run" ever sees such publication. I *do*
control the rights to that.

I want to thank everyone out there who's kept the faith
with me these last three years. The stories are coming;
I haven't abandoned Trent or Denice or my readers, or
myself. I've been working on the Continuing Time since
I was thirteen, and I'm not stopping now.

Titles in quote marks are individual novels;
the rest are short stories.

THESE ARE THE TALES OF THE CONTINUING TIME:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DATE:
-----
VOLUME ONE: "IN THE BEGINNING..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Starcloud...................Previous Cycle of the Wheel
Spacethings..............................7 Billion B.C.
The Revolt of the Living...............4.5 Billion B.C.
The Time Wars..........................3.5 Billion B.C.
The Continuing Time.........................62,000 B.C.
"The Last Dancer: The Dancer"...............48,000 B.C.
The Painsharing of Ifahad....................5,800 B.C.
The Lord in His Castle..................540 to 589 A.D.
Remembrance........................................1963
Driving in the Dark................................1982
"Emerald Eyes: The Ancestors"......................2030
The Shepherds......................................2049
"Emerald Eyes".....................................2062
Faster than the _Wind_.............................2063
"The Long Run".............................2069 to 2070
o The Last Summer of His Youth
o The Long Run
o The Wall
"The Last Dancer: Spring 2072"....................2072
"Bordered in Blue".................................2072
o Sea Songs
o Death Songs
The Mechanism of Desire............................2074
"The Last Dancer"..........................2075 to 2076
o Summer: 2075
o Spring: 2076
o Back to the Beginning: Dvan's Story
o The TriCentennial Summer
o The Last Dancer

VOLUME TWO: ON THE ROAD TO REVOLUTION
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Players, Book One: The AI War"............2078 to 2080
o Trent the Uncatchable and the Temple of 'toons
o The Big Boost
o A Good Hair Day (The Lay of the Rose)
o The AI War
o Trent's Return
Moving.............................................2082
"Walk Against the Wind"....................2087 to 2090
"The Last Detective".......................2090 to 2091
o Master of the Fucking Obvious
o Deathjokes, Part One
o Catch Me If You Can
"Players, Book Two: Revolution"............2090 to 2100
o The Telepath, the Politician, and the Thief
o Deathjokes, Part Two
o The Light From the Crystal
o The Voyage of the Dauntless
o A Revolt in 2100

VOLUME THREE: THE WAR WITH THE SLEEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Song as Yet Unsung".....................2111 to 2119
"A Tale as Yet Untold".....................2121 to 2139
"Legend"...................................2145 to 2149

VOLUME FOUR: THE EXODUS FROM EARTH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Corridor of Dawn...............................2290
"The House of November"....................2291 to 2294
o Ares
o Sondra
o Richard: the First Lord of November
o Lorn
The Lords of Shadow................................2309
The Left Handed Hunter.............................2341
"Kinderjim on Earth"...............................2347
"The Serendip, the Starclouds,
and the Scout".....................2349 to 2361
o Discovery
o Looking for Home
"Domain"...................................2382 to 2389
o Homecoming Day
o The Domain of Kinderjim
o Domain
"The Always Rising of the Night"...........2468 to 2501
(Being the true story of Our Lady of
Nightways, Ola Blue, who was Lady Blue,
who was Leiacan of Eastersea.)
Honorable Enemies..................................2614
"Lord November:
The Man-Spacething War"............2676 to 2682
The Face of Night..................................2696

VOLUME FIVE: CAMBER'S WAY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Young Camber".............................3000 to 3018
o Young Camber
o The Darkness Has a Name
o The Hunted Man
"The Winding Way Home".....................3022 to 3030
o The Song of Camber and S'Reeth
o The Song of S'Reeth and the Freebooters
o The Old Humans
o Mithian the Mercenary
o Homecoming Day 3030
"Lord Camber"..............................3036 to 3038
o The Traveler
o Cities in the Darkness
o The Borderland of Night
"Camber's Way".....................................3040

VOLUME SIX: THE TIME WARS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Comes A Man"..............................3106 to 3107
"In Time of Legend"..........................Irrelevant
"All of the Things That You Are".............Irrelevant
"In All of Your Brilliance:
The Writings of Camber"........3397; Irrelevant

VOLUME SEVEN: THE FAILURE OF THE MAP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Platformer"...............................2964 to 3031
Shiva..............................................3042
Chauki November....................................3392
The Return of the Ultimate Webdancer...............4600
The High Servant...................................7822
"Anarchist"................................8864 to 8976
o The Last Lord of November
o The Way the World Ends
o Anarchist
"End of Empire"....................................9082
"Monument: The Day of Its Release"...............10,400
(In which the Chained One, Creator of the
Great Wheel of Existence, is released; the
Starclouds and the Zaradin return; heroes
who died before die again; and the
Continuing Time draws to an end.)
The Cold Time..............................circa 12,000

Related Works (fictional and otherwise):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Encyclopedia of the Continuing Time" (Non-Fiction)
"Tales of Old and New Earth"
o Other Times and Other Places
o Tales of Old and New Earth
"The Way off the Wheel"
(In the universal heat death, as the Great
Wheel of Existence collapses around them,
a group of heroes searches for the Way off
the Wheel.)
"The Collapse of the Levels"
(A fantasy trilogy unlike _anything_ you
have ever seen before, deeper and more
detailed than "The Lord of The Rings." Of
course you won't _get_ to see it for about
twenty years; a trivial enough wait for a
classic of this magnitude.)
And, Last But _Certainly_ Not Least:

T R I N I T Y
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Earth Angel
Sun Magic
The Poet of the Apocalypse
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOTICE: The preceding is copyright 1992 by
Daniel Keys Moran. It may be disseminated
freely so long as the information contained
herein is not altered in any way. The author
can be reached at Box 667, Van Nuys, CA 91408.

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 93 08:35:45 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Really Big Post
--------
Thanks for the file. Got it printed and arc'd. Anyone heard anything at
all about the Screenplay for tLR or whether DKM has an accessible address of ANY
sort?

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:03:18 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: DKM List Whoops
--------
Arrrg! Thanks to the oh-so-high quality of Michigan software,
plus my own carelessness, I managed to delete the list. I've
rebuilt it with what is on file on my harddrive, but there may
be slight problems. In particular, if you asked to be deleted
and you get this mail, drop a note to continuing-time-request
to let me know to get my act together. (If you asked to be on
the list after Nov. 8, and you didn't get this, you should also
drop me a note, though I'm not sure how you're supposed to
know that.)

-Sol

ps "oh-so-high quality" means you can delete the entire list with a
single keystroke, no confirmation of any sort required. In
general, Michigan software not running on Unix boxes looks like
it was written in the early sixties. (In fact, in many cases,
it may well have been.)

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:30:52 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trent and the Wall
--------
Wes said:
>>Greg said:
>>"Second of such assumptions is that Trent did not in fact walk through a
>>wall."
>
>This confuses me because in LR, Trent is explicitly confused when he
>does not find a guard at the airlock, and then reflects on the shout of
>"We've got him!" that he heard earlier (gathering the Elite at the
>conference room where "Trent" walked through a wall). Had Trent
>actually BEEN in the conference room, he would have known exactly what
>that shout was about when he heard it in the first place. The context
>clues Moran uses in that passage seem unequivocal in saying that Trent
>hadn't been in the conference room at all - but I'm sure someone will
>tell me Moran did that on purpose (deliberately misleading) to spark
>controversy.

I still say it's left vague because Storyteller doesn't know what
happened. (For those that say Storyteller couldn't narrate the tale
because he never met Trent, consider that this still allows him to probe
the memories of those who met Trent. And for the few scenes where this
is impossible, he simply makes it up --- he is the God of Lies, after
all.)

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 93 16:49:39 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent and the Wall
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:30:52 -0500
>From: Solomon Foster <[email protected]>
>
>Wes said:
>>>Greg said:
>>>"Second of such assumptions is that Trent did not in fact walk through a
>>>wall."
>>
>>This confuses me because in LR, Trent is explicitly confused when he
>>does not find a guard at the airlock, and then reflects on the shout of
>>"We've got him!" that he heard earlier (gathering the Elite at the
>>conference room where "Trent" walked through a wall). Had Trent
>>actually BEEN in the conference room, he would have known exactly what
>>that shout was about when he heard it in the first place. The context
>>clues Moran uses in that passage seem unequivocal in saying that Trent
>>hadn't been in the conference room at all - but I'm sure someone will
>>tell me Moran did that on purpose (deliberately misleading) to spark
>>controversy.
>
>I still say it's left vague because Storyteller doesn't know what
>happened. (For those that say Storyteller couldn't narrate the tale
>because he never met Trent, consider that this still allows him to probe
>the memories of those who met Trent. And for the few scenes where this
>is impossible, he simply makes it up --- he is the God of Lies, after
>all.)

Here's what I think happened:

Ralf created a holographic image of Trent as a distraction for the
Peaceforcers. Ralf was loose in the Lunar Infonet at the time, and I
think he would have kept an eye on Trent despite the fact that he was
also busy elsewhere. I can't remember if it was mentioned explicitly
(I'll have to look again), but the conference room probably had
holographic videoconferencing equipment which could have been used to
create the image. Since Ralf made the image, of course Trent wouldn't
know anything about it.

Storyteller could be speculating, or he could have talked to Ralf
later (unlikely, but possible). And he would have to *talk* to Ralf,
because you can't read the mind of an AI.

Something to ponder: Could an AI see Storyteller or Camber while they
are in "fast Time"? AIs do live 20000 times (or something like that)
faster than people. Of course, the AI would have to have the right
monitoring device, like an X-Ray detector--a regular holocam won't do.
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:21:47 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected] (joel isaac singer)
Subject: Re: Confusion
--------
>
> I'm not sure about this, from reading tLD, but are Camber Tremodian and
> the Nameless One, the God of Players, one and the same entity? (Apologies
> if you've already worked this through, I joined the list just a few days
> ago...)
>
> Joel Singer Stanford University [email protected]
> The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.
>
Probably, though they appear to be entities of a different order. The Nameless
One may well be Camber at a different point in time from when he is human. Note
that when Camber is talking to Denice's sensei he says something along the linesof: If you see me it will be in the other place, and I may not know you there.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:30:50 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Last Dancer Thoughts (Spoilers)
--------
Bri writes:
>Sol writes:
>> Finally, concerning Trent's post-being-killed survival: ". . . that
>> slimy clone of a . . ." (p191)
>
> Bingbingbing! This works for me, too.

Continuing my re-reading, we later learn that human cloning technology
does exist (p250). Singer won't take that route, cause she thinks her
clone would be a different person with her memories. But if you cloned
Trent and stuck in an inskin like his, it seems very reasonable that you
could get quite close to the original.

"Kaynell'no was human, God of Lies, Named Storyteller. The image was of
a brown-skinned man, with hair and beard of a deeper brown. His eyes
were the dark umber brown of emeralds. They lacked pupils or any other
internal structure." (p284) [So Storyteller, like Camber, has Kabhyr
eyes, but his are green. And, and, and, our narrator is the God of
Lies.]

Japanese woman to Sedon: "Even with our aid your chances --- our chances
--- are merely poor." (p421) [Surely the Japanese are including their
nukes in their simulations. More proof that Ring must know the
revolution will not work.]

More later on these pages --- I need to skim through them again and
take notes.

Rob writes:
>Except in the case of Ripper, I thinks that DKM's characterizations in
>tLD were up to the standards he set in EE and tLR. I just think that a
>lot of the characters were boring snots when compared to Trent. And DKM
>does a good job of portraying them as such.

I agree that the characterizations are as strong as the previous books.
(One reason they seem not is because there is a much larger cast of
characters, and so each gets a corespondingly much smaller bit of the
book.)

I disagree that the characters are boring snots compared to Trent. It's
simply that Trent is this larger than life, overblown, flashy
swashbuckler, whereas the characters in LD are more normal. Sure, in
terms of power many far outweigh Trent, but they are much more
down-to-earth in terms of personal style. This makes for less ability
to quote their incredibly witty comments, etc. but it hardly makes them
boring.

>So I think the idea of the cast of tLD being a lousy set of characters
>is more on the mark. At least they are a lousy set from the standpoint
>of riveting the readers attention. Although I did like the Medbot a
>lot.

Again, they have rivoted my attention for 400 pages of my second read of
the book in five weeks. Sure, it would be cooler to be Trent than any
of the LD characters, but that hardly means their story is
uninteresting. Indeed, most are significantly more complex characters
than Trent.

-Sol

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 93 16:49:39 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent and the Wall
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:30:52 -0500
>From: Solomon Foster <[email protected]>
>
>Wes said:
>>>Greg said:
>>>"Second of such assumptions is that Trent did not in fact walk through a
>>>wall."
>>
>>This confuses me because in LR, Trent is explicitly confused when he
>>does not find a guard at the airlock, and then reflects on the shout of
>>"We've got him!" that he heard earlier (gathering the Elite at the
>>conference room where "Trent" walked through a wall). Had Trent
>>actually BEEN in the conference room, he would have known exactly what
>>that shout was about when he heard it in the first place. The context
>>clues Moran uses in that passage seem unequivocal in saying that Trent
>>hadn't been in the conference room at all - but I'm sure someone will
>>tell me Moran did that on purpose (deliberately misleading) to spark
>>controversy.
>
>I still say it's left vague because Storyteller doesn't know what
>happened. (For those that say Storyteller couldn't narrate the tale
>because he never met Trent, consider that this still allows him to probe
>the memories of those who met Trent. And for the few scenes where this
>is impossible, he simply makes it up --- he is the God of Lies, after
>all.)

Here's what I think happened:

Ralf created a holographic image of Trent as a distraction for the
Peaceforcers. Ralf was loose in the Lunar Infonet at the time, and I
think he would have kept an eye on Trent despite the fact that he was
also busy elsewhere. I can't remember if it was mentioned explicitly
(I'll have to look again), but the conference room probably had
holographic videoconferencing equipment which could have been used to
create the image. Since Ralf made the image, of course Trent wouldn't
know anything about it.

Storyteller could be speculating, or he could have talked to Ralf
later (unlikely, but possible). And he would have to *talk* to Ralf,
because you can't read the mind of an AI.

Something to ponder: Could an AI see Storyteller or Camber while they
are in "fast Time"? AIs do live 20000 times (or something like that)
faster than people. Of course, the AI would have to have the right
monitoring device, like an X-Ray detector--a regular holocam won't do.
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 93 17:58:51 EST
****************

From: wesley mcdermott <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fast time...
--------
Such a detector would be a VERY special purpose item - which
implies that the AI would need to be LOOKING for such an event
to occur at a specific time and place. Pretty unlikely I think.
However it seems reasonable that anybody (AI or not) could in
theory get such information - or at least review it after the fact - but
the being in fast time might just destroy the camera and be done with it...

(:
Wesley

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 93 15:04:19 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fast time...
--------
>Such a detector would be a VERY special purpose item - which
>implies that the AI would need to be LOOKING for such an event
>to occur at a specific time and place. Pretty unlikely I think.

Not really. All it need be is a high-radiation detector. After getting
a fairly localized source, which moved around at high speeds, going to
a high-speed version of said camera would be the obvious step.

The problem is that it is not predictable, unless you know the future.

Sean.

****************
Wed, 17 Nov 93 17:13:41 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (rob mace)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Last Dancer Thoughts (Spoilers)
--------
Sol writes:
> Rob writes:
> >So I think the idea of the cast of tLD being a lousy set of characters
> >is more on the mark. At least they are a lousy set from the standpoint
> >of riveting the readers attention. Although I did like the Medbot a
> >lot.
>
> Again, they have rivoted my attention for 400 pages of my second read of
> the book in five weeks. Sure, it would be cooler to be Trent than any
> of the LD characters, but that hardly means their story is
> uninteresting. Indeed, most are significantly more complex characters
> than Trent.

I think my statements came off stronger then I intended and rereding it
it does sound stronger then intended. I found the characters in LD to
be very interesting. Just not riveting in the same way as Trent is. Much
of LR reads like a roller coaster ride. Most of LD does not.

The fact that these books read differently I think is a very good thing.
If Moran ever completes the continueing time series it will be very long.
The fact that the three books in the series so far all have a differenta
feel. If all the books had the same feel and format I think they would
soon get stale.

Through my connections with R. Talsorian Games I got to read about ten
pages of Lord November: The Man-Spacething War. The part I read has the
feel of a detective novel.

John wrote:
> Also, I just saw DKM's posting, wow Continuing tome RPG's, that
> would be great, anyone know anything more recent than Aug 92 abotu
> either the Cyberpunk version, or anything else?

I will ask Mike Pondsmith of RTG if there is anything I can post about
this project.

Rob

P.S. Having first read tLD about a year ago it is nice to finally have
some people to discuss it with. Bantam sure took their time publishing
it.

****************
Thu, 18 Nov 93 02:21:24 -0600
****************

From: windsor williams <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: EE question
--------
This is my first contribution to this list (now that I've finished the
older material (Thanks much, Sol!)). Although I'd heard him mentioned before,
tLD was my first DKM book. I've since grabbed tLR, but have had no luck on
the others. Could someone provide a desription of EE (I know from the long
post by DKM that it's smaller than tLR, which is smaller than tLD, but what
does the cover look like? General color scheme?) to aid my search through
unorganized used books? As of day before yesterday, there were 2 extra copies
of tLR available...I could arrange a deal if anyone is interested (although
it sounds like tLR is much more common than EE).
From the discussion, it looks like I need to reread a few more times to get
up to speed on the details. Yeah, I know, big hardship. 8-)

Windsor

****************
Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:28:57 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: joel isaac singer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (dkm mailing list)
Subject: Re: Last Dancer Thoughts
--------
> I think my statements came off stronger then I intended and rereding it
> it does sound stronger then intended. I found the characters in LD to
> be very interesting. Just not riveting in the same way as Trent is. Much
> of LR reads like a roller coaster ride. Most of LD does not.

I think that problem I had with tLD is that so many many new characters
are introduced and interact with each other, and each of them has their
own brand of possibly world-destroying power. Or simply just mind-boggling
power. And I just got overwhelmed trying to keep track of everyone's
projects. Look at this:

I. Serathin & the Envoy of Balance. Trent may/may not be an (avatar?)
of the Envoy; we don't know. These two are opposing forces.
II. The Name Storyteller and the Nameless One. The Nameless One may/
may not be Camber; we don't know. These two act through avatars
throughout human history, sometimes giving instructions, sometimes
taking over people's bodies, sometimes intervening directly.
III. Sedon and Dvan. Definitely opposed. Quite powerful.
IV. Mohammed Vance and the PKF. Want to keep the peace. PKF Elite are
fairly powerful weapons.
V. SecGen Eddore and his webdancers. Want to keep power. Acting
sometimes with/sometimes against the PKF.
VI. Johnny Rebs and Erisian Claw. Want to revolt against the Unification;
sometimes act in concert, but again, each has their own particular
agenda. Might as well toss the Japanese in with them too. And who
knows what the hell the TrueBreed program will come up with.
VII. The AI's. Ring, Ralf, and others. Not to be discounted. Who knows
what sort of long-term plans they have--revolt until they gain the
same unequivocal rights as humans?
VIII. Ripper. He's got some long-term plans, although he might not have
the power to implement them.
IX. The Shiabre. Do the nightfaces act together, in concert, or are
they all independent?
X. Denice. The main character, being the only telepath. She didn't
have any plans as the book took place, but now she certainly has
ideas on how she wants to shape the government, and the power to
do so.
XI. Trent. Of course. Whether he and Denice are thinking similarly
is an open question...
XII. The Spacefarer's Collective and the Belt City-States. Nearly forgot
to add in their motives.

Just to make it a baker's dozen, let's get all of humanity sorted out before
the Sleem arrive to complicate the mess. You see, tLR was a simple novel
compared to this one. At points it became too difficult for me to remember
who was working for whom and who really wanted what to happen. There's only
so many superheroic characters one can take; and only so many plot threads
one can follow before getting lost in the fabric. There are huge numbers of
loose ends to follow, unanswered questions. But I guess that's to be
expected in a cycle this big. Maybe I need a guidebook or a cast of
characters.

Joel Singer Stanford University [email protected]
The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.

****************
Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:19:26 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent and the Wall
--------
Mike Long writes:
>Sol writes: [talking about why it's unclear whether Trent walked
through the wall or not]
>>I still say it's left vague because Storyteller doesn't know what
>>happened. (For those that say Storyteller couldn't narrate the tale
>>because he never met Trent, consider that this still allows him to probe
>>the memories of those who met Trent. And for the few scenes where this
>>is impossible, he simply makes it up --- he is the God of Lies, after
>>all.)
>
>Here's what I think happened:
>
>Ralf created a holographic image of Trent as a distraction for the
>Peaceforcers. Ralf was loose in the Lunar Infonet at the time, and I
>think he would have kept an eye on Trent despite the fact that he was
>also busy elsewhere. I can't remember if it was mentioned explicitly
>(I'll have to look again), but the conference room probably had
>holographic videoconferencing equipment which could have been used to
>create the image. Since Ralf made the image, of course Trent wouldn't
>know anything about it.

Oh, I agree. But I know some people don't, and Moran has said
that leaving it open to question was intentional.

-Sol

****************
Sat, 20 Nov 1993 12:43:48 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (ct)
Subject: Trent/Wall
--------
Just to make myself quite clear on this, my view is that Trent's walking
through the wall probably was Ralf making a hologram, but that this has not
been in any way proven. Trent might be able to walk through walls, it might
have been a hologram, hell, it may even have been Camber or the Name Storyteller
doing it so as to let Trent get away. Simply put, the question is not settled.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Fri, 19 Nov 1993 21:37:02 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (bryant durrell)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Trent and the Wall
--------
Page 256, tLD:

"Trent moved forward into the brightness. In an abrupt absurd flash of
memory, the room on Luna came to him, the room where a dozen
Peaceforcers, Vance and Melissa du Bois among them, had watched him
walk through a wall. It had been about this size, and lit like this,
with this dispassionate white clarity."

Trent had, of course, been in the briefing room at times other than the
time when he (or the holo) walked through the wall, so, well, it's
inconclusive.

Bryant

****************
Mon, 22 Nov 1993 13:57:16 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew bailey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: tLR- The Movie
--------
With the possibility of tLR & EE becoming a movie I and a friend were
dicussing the casting and came up with this. Feel free to comment as I
hope you will.

Trent - Christian Slater
Mohamed Vance - Arnie
Carl Castanaveras - Charlie Sheen
Marko Kalahari?? - Sean Connery
Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
Nathan Dark Clouds - Lou Diamond Phillips
Chritian Summers - Robert Redford
Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
Jimmy Ramirez - Tom Cruise
Callia - Rene Russo
Denice - Jodie Foster

have fun

The Acolyte

PS This is a repost as I got an error message from the mailor daemon
saying there was an error. Appologies to anyone who got this twice. Also
if you did then please mail me.

--
I'm just a hard working corporate slave |
My mind should hate what my body does crave|
I'm just a humble corporate slave |
Working my way to a corporate grave - Snog| [email protected]

****************
Mon, 22 Nov 93 14:59:09 -0600
****************

From: windsor williams <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: tLD sales and casting
--------
Does anyone know (or know how to find out) what sort of sales figures
tLD has produced? The stores around here seem to have sold the copies they
got pretty quickly, despite the lack of advertising, but that wasn't all
that many copies. Any estimates? (Hoping for good sales to pressure for
a reprinting of EE and tLR....)
On the casting ideas...hmmm. Some of these don't quite strike me right,
but I haven't been able to find a copy of EE yet, so maybe I just don't have
the right image of some of these characters. (Definitely the case for Carl,
etc.) Any ideas for Mac Devlin?

Windsor

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:33:11 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: tLR- The Movie
--------
From: Andrew Bailey <[email protected]>
>Trent - Christian Slater
>Mohamed Vance - Arnie
>Carl Castanaveras - Charlie Sheen
>Marko Kalahari?? - Sean Connery
>Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
>Nathan Dark Clouds - Lou Diamond Phillips
>Chritian Summers - Robert Redford
>Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
>Jimmy Ramirez - Tom Cruise
>Callia - Rene Russo
>Denice - Jodie Foster

I spent a bit of time hoping this was a joke, as the only person there I
would consider putting in a Emerald Eyes movie was Sean Connery. (And
he is questionable. It is a well known fact that Sean Connery science
fiction movies are incredibly bad unless they have a Queen soundtrack,
and with Freddie dead, this is problematic.) If nothing else, most of
them at least ten years too old for their part.

Anyway, I got a few ideas today while practicing the piano, so here are
a few suggestions:

>Mohamed Vance - Arnie
- Gerard Depedieu (well, however you spell it.) He's an imposing
presence, looks at least as Arab as Arnie does, and actually has the
correct accent. And he will be much more convincing as the
intelligent oppenent, and much, much more convincing when he
realizes the magnitude of his error in _Revolution_ and has to act a
bit. (Of course, unlike Arnie, for Gerard, the stiffness of a
cyborg would be an act . . . )

>Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
- Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.

Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.

Camber - The guy from "Highlander". (or even remember the names, even
when I should?)

>Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
- the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.

>Christian Summers - Robert Redford
- Mandy Patinkin. (okay, him I have on record, so it's easy to
spell.) I'm not quite sure why, but I think he could do it.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:53:11 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (the continuing time mailing list)
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie (fwd)
--------
One of these days I will remember to change the "To:" header before I send
out mail... really, I will... Once again, apologies to Sol who has seen this
already... =)

Ender

> Solomon Foster wrote:
> > From: Andrew Bailey <[email protected]>
> > >Trent - Christian Slater
> > >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> > >Carl Castanaveras - Charlie Sheen
> > >Marko Kalahari?? - Sean Connery
> > >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> > >Nathan Dark Clouds - Lou Diamond Phillips
> > >Chritian Summers - Robert Redford
> > >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> > >Jimmy Ramirez - Tom Cruise
> > >Callia - Rene Russo
> > >Denice - Jodie Foster
> >
> > I spent a bit of time hoping this was a joke, as the only person there I
> > would consider putting in a Emerald Eyes movie was Sean Connery. (And
> > he is questionable. It is a well known fact that Sean Connery science
> > fiction movies are incredibly bad unless they have a Queen soundtrack,
> > and with Freddie dead, this is problematic.) If nothing else, most of
> > them at least ten years too old for their part.
>
> I think Connery should play F.X. Chandler
>
> > Anyway, I got a few ideas today while practicing the piano, so here are
> > a few suggestions:
> >
> > >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> > - Gerard Depedieu (well, however you spell it.) He's an imposing
> > presence, looks at least as Arab as Arnie does, and actually has the
> > correct accent. And he will be much more convincing as the
> > intelligent oppenent, and much, much more convincing when he
> > realizes the magnitude of his error in _Revolution_ and has to act a
> > bit. (Of course, unlike Arnie, for Gerard, the stiffness of a
> > cyborg would be an act . . . )
> >
> > >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> > - Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
> > and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
> > skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.
>
> Great choice...
>
> > Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
> > spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
> > roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.
>
> I really like the idea of Branagh directing, but how about Derek Jacobi
> (Chorus from Henry V) as Storyteller? Not that Ken is a bad suggestion mind
> you. (and you did spell Branagh correctly...)
>
> > Camber - The guy from "Highlander". (or even remember the names, even
> > when I should?)
>
> Christopher Lambert?
> Hmmm... I think I like it...
>
> > >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> > - the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
> > knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.
>
> I was thinking Kehli O'Byrne ("Knight Moves") or Mia Sara ("Legend", etc)
>
> > >Christian Summers - Robert Redford
> > - Mandy Patinkin. (okay, him I have on record, so it's easy to
> > spell.) I'm not quite sure why, but I think he could do it.
> >
> >
> > -Sol
>
> Of course I get spooked everytime I hear talk of an EE or tLR movie... My
> biggest fear is that the telepaths' "emerald eyes" will be done with some
> cheesey effect ala the "Eye of Ibad" in David Lynch's "Dune".
>
> --
> Ender
> ================================================-=============================
> Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
> UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
> ================================================-=============================

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 93 11:10:07 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie (fwd)
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>From: [email protected] (Pete "Ender" Walsh)
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:53:11 -0500 (EST)
>
>> I think Connery should play F.X. Chandler

An *excellent* idea.

>> > Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
>> > spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
>> > roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.
>>
>> I really like the idea of Branagh directing, but how about Derek Jacobi
>> (Chorus from Henry V) as Storyteller? Not that Ken is a bad suggestion mind
>> you. (and you did spell Branagh correctly...)

Jacobi is another good choice. As is Branagh, for that matter.

Actually, with Branagh directing Emma Thompson would probably end up
in there somewhere :). I think she'd be better as Melissa than as
Denice.

>> Of course I get spooked everytime I hear talk of an EE or tLR movie... My
>> biggest fear is that the telepaths' "emerald eyes" will be done with some
>> cheesey effect ala the "Eye of Ibad" in David Lynch's "Dune".

Green contacts (blue for Trent) are a lot easier to arrange than the
all-blue effect.

Great, now that you've mentioned "D*ne", the whole thing is cursed to
fail...
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 11:17:05 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie
--------
Pete "Ender" Walsh writes:
> One of these days I will remember to change the "To:" header before I send
>out mail... really, I will... Once again, apologies to Sol who has seen this
>already... =)

No problem.

> > I spent a bit of time hoping this was a joke, as the only person there I
> > would consider putting in a Emerald Eyes movie was Sean Connery. (And
> > he is questionable. It is a well known fact that Sean Connery science
> > fiction movies are incredibly bad unless they have a Queen soundtrack,
> > and with Freddie dead, this is problematic.) If nothing else, most of
> > them at least ten years too old for their part.
>
> I think Connery should play F.X. Chandler

I can definitely see this, but I'm not sure what old Queen songs we
could put in the soundtrack. ("I Want to Break Free"? "Headlong"?
Definitely "Ogre Battle".)

(Actually, I was toying with the idea of Connery playing D'van in
the sequel.)

> > >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> > - Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
> > and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
> > skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.
>
> Great choice...

Danke.

> > Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
> > spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
> > roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.
>
> I really like the idea of Branagh directing, but how about Derek Jacobi
> (Chorus from Henry V) as Storyteller? Not that Ken is a bad suggestion mind
> you.

I could deal with Jacobi in the role, but then we still need a role for
Branagh.

>(and you did spell Branagh correctly...)

It's a first.

> > >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> > - the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
> > knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.
>
> I was thinking Kehli O'Byrne ("Knight Moves") or Mia Sara ("Legend", etc)

Haven't seen these. Is "Knight Moves" any good?

> Of course I get spooked everytime I hear talk of an EE or tLR movie... My
> biggest fear is that the telepaths' "emerald eyes" will be done with some
> cheesey effect ala the "Eye of Ibad" in David Lynch's "Dune".

That would be bad.

Of course, part of me still thinks the movie should be animated. If
we could get a Disney-type budget for it . . .

-Sol

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:51:14 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (solomon foster)
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie
--------
Solomon Foster wrote:
> From: Andrew Bailey <[email protected]>
> >Trent - Christian Slater
> >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> >Carl Castanaveras - Charlie Sheen
> >Marko Kalahari?? - Sean Connery
> >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> >Nathan Dark Clouds - Lou Diamond Phillips
> >Chritian Summers - Robert Redford
> >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> >Jimmy Ramirez - Tom Cruise
> >Callia - Rene Russo
> >Denice - Jodie Foster
>
> I spent a bit of time hoping this was a joke, as the only person there I
> would consider putting in a Emerald Eyes movie was Sean Connery. (And
> he is questionable. It is a well known fact that Sean Connery science
> fiction movies are incredibly bad unless they have a Queen soundtrack,
> and with Freddie dead, this is problematic.) If nothing else, most of
> them at least ten years too old for their part.

I think Connery should play F.X. Chandler

> Anyway, I got a few ideas today while practicing the piano, so here are
> a few suggestions:
>
> >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> - Gerard Depedieu (well, however you spell it.) He's an imposing
> presence, looks at least as Arab as Arnie does, and actually has the
> correct accent. And he will be much more convincing as the
> intelligent oppenent, and much, much more convincing when he
> realizes the magnitude of his error in _Revolution_ and has to act a
> bit. (Of course, unlike Arnie, for Gerard, the stiffness of a
> cyborg would be an act . . . )
>
> >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> - Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
> and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
> skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.

Great choice...

> Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
> spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
> roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.

I really like the idea of Branagh directing, but how about Derek Jacobi
(Chorus from Henry V) as Storyteller? Not that Ken is a bad suggestion mind
you. (and you did spell Branagh correctly...)

> Camber - The guy from "Highlander". (or even remember the names, even
> when I should?)

Christopher Lambert?
Hmmm... I think I like it...

> >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> - the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
> knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.

I was thinking Kehli O'Byrne ("Knight Moves") or Mia Sara ("Legend", etc)

> >Christian Summers - Robert Redford
> - Mandy Patinkin. (okay, him I have on record, so it's easy to
> spell.) I'm not quite sure why, but I think he could do it.
>
>
> -Sol

Of course I get spooked everytime I hear talk of an EE or tLR movie... My
biggest fear is that the telepaths' "emerald eyes" will be done with some
cheesey effect ala the "Eye of Ibad" in David Lynch's "Dune".

--
Ender
================================================-=============================
Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
================================================-=============================

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 11:34:25 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (the continuing time mailing list)
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie
--------
HA! I went and changed the header before editing this time... What could
possibly go wrong?

Er, forget I asked...

Solomon Foster wrote:
> Pete "Ender" Walsh writes:
> > One of these days I will remember to change the "To:" header before I send
> >out mail... really, I will... Once again, apologies to Sol who has seen this
> >already... =)
>
> No problem.
>
> > > I spent a bit of time hoping this was a joke, as the only person there I
> > > would consider putting in a Emerald Eyes movie was Sean Connery. (And
> > > he is questionable. It is a well known fact that Sean Connery science
> > > fiction movies are incredibly bad unless they have a Queen soundtrack,
> > > and with Freddie dead, this is problematic.) If nothing else, most of
> > > them at least ten years too old for their part.
> >
> > I think Connery should play F.X. Chandler
>
> I can definitely see this, but I'm not sure what old Queen songs we
> could put in the soundtrack. ("I Want to Break Free"? "Headlong"?
> Definitely "Ogre Battle".)

Hmmmm... How about "Death on Two Legs"? Or "Keep Yourself Alive"? Or
"Stone Cold Crazy"? Or... =)

> (Actually, I was toying with the idea of Connery playing D'van in
> the sequel.)
>
> > > >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> > > - Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
> > > and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
> > > skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.
> >
> > Great choice...
>
> Danke.
>
> > > Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
> > > spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
> > > roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.
> >
> > I really like the idea of Branagh directing, but how about Derek Jacobi
> > (Chorus from Henry V) as Storyteller? Not that Ken is a bad suggestion mind
> > you.
>
> I could deal with Jacobi in the role, but then we still need a role for
> Branagh.

Uh... I'm working on it... have to give it some thought...

> >(and you did spell Branagh correctly...)
>
> It's a first.
>
> > > >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> > > - the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
> > > knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.
> >
> > I was thinking Kehli O'Byrne ("Knight Moves") or Mia Sara ("Legend", etc)
>
> Haven't seen these. Is "Knight Moves" any good?

Define "good". =) I liked it, but it has it's share of flaws... I think it's
worth renting... Mia Sara was the girl that played Ferris' girlfriend in
"Ferris Bueller's Day Off"....

> > Of course I get spooked everytime I hear talk of an EE or tLR movie... My
> > biggest fear is that the telepaths' "emerald eyes" will be done with some
> > cheesey effect ala the "Eye of Ibad" in David Lynch's "Dune".
>
> That would be bad.
>
> Of course, part of me still thinks the movie should be animated. If
> we could get a Disney-type budget for it . . .

Hmmmmm... okay, I'd vote for animation if they could get someone REALLY good
to do the art... Say Jim Burns (Did the tLR cover that has the Purple
AeroSmith (or was it a different model? It's been awhile) or Michael Whelan
or someone like that...

--
Ender
================================================-=============================
Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
================================================-=============================

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 93 11:00:12 EST
****************

From: mike long <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie
Reply-To: Mike Long <[email protected]>
--------
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:33:11 -0500
>From: Solomon Foster <[email protected]>
>
>>From: Andrew Bailey <[email protected]>
>>Trent - Christian Slater

Who was the guy who played Chris Knight in "Real Genius"? This role
wouldn't be that much different.

>>Carl Castanaveras - Charlie Sheen

Dies in EE. Al Pacino would be great for those insane rages, though.

We have to remember to get good-looking actors/actresses for all of
the genies.

>>Marko Kalahari?? - Sean Connery

Malko Kalharri. Doesn't matter, he dies in EE.

>>Nathan Dark Clouds - Lou Diamond Phillips

I'd prefer the guy who played the police chief in "Thunderheart."

>>Jimmy Ramirez - Tom Cruise

I think this is a much better Lou Diamond Phillips role. IMHO, I
think we should keep Cruise as far away from this as possible.

>>Denice - Jodie Foster

I like this one, as long as she can leave the faux southern accent at
home. Heh.

>>Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> - Gerard Depedieu (well, however you spell it.) He's an imposing
> presence, looks at least as Arab as Arnie does, and actually has the
> correct accent. And he will be much more convincing as the
> intelligent oppenent, and much, much more convincing when he
> realizes the magnitude of his error in _Revolution_ and has to act a
> bit. (Of course, unlike Arnie, for Gerard, the stiffness of a
> cyborg would be an act . . . )

How big is Depardieu? Vance's size seems to be what impresses people
who meet him the most, at least at first. The accent would be
perfect, though.

>>Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> - Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
> and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
> skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.

Am I screwed up, or is Montignet an older woman? For some reason I
thought of Angelica Houston (sp?). Yeah, that's right, keep laughing.

Doesn't matter, she dies in EE as well.

>Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
> spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
> roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.
>
>Camber - The guy from "Highlander". (or even remember the names, even
> when I should?)

Christopher Lambert.

>>Christian Summers - Robert Redford
> - Mandy Patinkin. (okay, him I have on record, so it's easy to
> spell.) I'm not quite sure why, but I think he could do it.

I like Redford better, he's an all-American kind of guy.

Here's another one for ya:

Jerrill Carson - Jack Nicholson. Plays crazy people *extremely* well.
He would only appear in an LR movie as a flashback though, and he
would be too expensive for that.
--
Mike Long [email protected]
VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030
Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010
Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog);

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:06:17 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: joel isaac singer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (dkm mailing list)
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie
--------
> Of course, part of me still thinks the movie should be animated. If
> we could get a Disney-type budget for it . . .
>
> -Sol

Or perhaps Japanese animation--some of the *good* stuff, above the levels of
Star Blazers. Wasn't there possibilities of a collabaration between some
Japanese animation company and Disney? Add in the plot of tLR and you've
got a major picture here. With Robin Williams as Johnny Johnny... (?!)

Joel Singer Stanford University [email protected]
The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 93 18:52:43 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Da Moovie
--------
A quick postthought --

What about Michael Biehn as Christian Summers?

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 1993 22:36:07 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Movie
--------
Bri writes:
> Well, I'm all for the High-Quality Japanese animation, myself. Too
>many damn special effects to make it cost-effective otherwise. I've
>already begun selecting soundtrack pieces, but so far I've only perused
>one album (MCMXC a.D. by Enigma -- especially "Mea Culpa" as background
>for Trent's adventures in and running away from SpaceBase One). I
>honestly have to say Queen (forgive me, Sol, for I am about to sin)
>doesn't really have any tracks I can hear behind it yet.

No Queen?!? I cast thee out!!!

Actually, I'd rather have an original soundtrack for the movie, and that
makes a Queen soundtrack problematic, as I mentioned earlier. (I only
named Queen songs in the context "if you have to use Queen songs, which
would you use?" I must say that "Ogre Battle" really catches my fancy
for the fight between Camber and Storyteller, though.)

In light of your upcoming choice of directors, I suppose I'll have to
nominate myself as court composer.

> As far as directors go, because of my limited perusal of animated
>directors still alive, I can only approve of one person so far. Me,
>with DKM riding shotgun. You'll have to take my word for it. I had
>what I've begun to call a "trailer vision" of certain scenes from tLR
>already. That means I've kind of "seen" in my mind almost exactly,
>frame by frame, sound by sound, what a REALLY good trailer for this film
>would look like. Yes, it was strange. Yes, I found myself damn
>disoriented when whatever it was decided it was Okay for Me to Come On
>Back to Reality with The Rest Of Us Now. If that doesn't help and Sol
>(having tolerated me as a roomie for two years) can't elucidate, I'll
>try later.

Doesn't look like it needs elucidating to me, but then, that may be an
unfortunate side-effect of having spent to much time in the same
apartment as you.

> Wooph. If it HAD to be done live-action (please please no), I
>might cast as follows, referring to the above chart:

Note, that, as that now-deleted chart implied, we've been saying
"Long Run" movie, but in fact, meant the "Emerald Eyes/Long Run"
movie. To quote DKM:

>There is a "Long Run" screenplay. It's being shopped around Hollywood
>as we speak. It covers events in both "Emerald Eyes" and "The Long Run."

Back to Bri quotes:
> CARL CASTANAVERAS -- If this was tLR only (I'd prefer to do an EE
>film first), and live (assume this for all casting choices unless
>specified as VO for animation), No way in hell would Charlie Sheen do.
>He can't really do rage quite right for me. In my choice world, I'd
>cast me (given about a year to get in something approximating good
>shape, and electrolysis treatments to reduce my Furball Quotient). Sol
>can attest for my ability to do rage, and otherwise I fit the
>description fairly well.

Well, I can attest to the Furball Quotient, anyway. I really, really
can't see you as Carl, though. Chris Summers, maybe, but not Carl.

>Gimme a break, in my choice world, it'd be my movie. Otherwise, maybe
>Mel Gibson -- "genetically perfect" and does looney rage REALLY well.
>Fits. I like this.

Don't like Mel, but I don't have a better suggestion.

> MELISSA DU BOIS -- Much as I'd LIKE to put Winona Ryder here (Sigh,
>Drool and various other stupid noises), I see her as a better Denice.

Barf-o-rama. Winona may be cute, but she simply does not even vaguely
resemble someone genetically engineered to be perfect. Much, much too
frail, for one thing.

>I think the Mia Sara suggestion works well. Dark hair, big eyes,
>dazzling smile, and looks & acts Much more Froggish than Ryder.

Geez, I'm going to have to figure out who this is. Still, I really like
my "Like Water for Chocolate" suggestion, even if I don't know her name.

>For just VO -- DEFINITELY Anne Parillaud from LA FEMME NIKITA and
>INNOCENT BLOOD. My trailer vision begins with someone accessing the
>Exodus Bible and her voice intoning into near-silence, "Une fois, il y a
>ete un voleur, et le voleur a ete Dieu." as the English translation
>reads across a black screen in electric blue letters -- "Once there was
>a Thief, and the Thief was God."

I can see this. (Somebody had better come take me away to the funny
farm.)

> SUZANNE MONTIGNET -- I absolutely love Emma Thompson. Oh, uhhh,
>she'd be perfect for the part, too. All male BS aside, there is no
>better choice.

:-)

As to someone's comment that Suzanne is old, it is worth remembering
that medical technology is a lot better in the 21st century. That is to
say, your typical eighty-year-old probably looks like your typical
forty-year-old these days. Emma would be perfect.

> And, last but only maybe least, DENICE CASTANAVERAS -- Not nearly
>as important in tLR as in tLD, but I'd like to put Winona Ryder here
>tentatively. She's got great range, dark hair, and would have the
>youthful naivete thing that plagues both Denice AND Trent in tLD down
>cold. No way Jodie Foster. Hell of an actor, but needs more prominent
>eyes and darker hair.

Ugh. I think I'd be in favor of finding newcomers to play Trent,
Denice, and Jimmy --- no names I've heard so far come even close.

Oh well, simpler to animate it, anyway.

-Sol

****************
Tue, 23 Nov 93 23:19 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Movie
--------
>No Queen?!? I cast thee out!!!

>Actually, I'd rather have an original soundtrack for the movie, and that
>makes a Queen soundtrack problematic, as I mentioned earlier. (I only
>named Queen songs in the context "if you have to use Queen songs, which
>would you use?" I must say that "Ogre Battle" really catches my fancy
>for the fight between Camber and Storyteller, though.)

Hear, hear. Definitely an original soundtrack. But who do we solicit to
make contributions to the soundtrack? I nominate Nine Inch Nails and
Enigma. No Queen, sorry. Nobody knows what a guitar is, remember?

>>Gimme a break, in my choice world, it'd be my movie. Otherwise, maybe
>>Mel Gibson -- "genetically perfect" and does looney rage REALLY well.
>>Fits. I like this.

>Don't like Mel, but I don't have a better suggestion.

Too bad Jack Nicholson is too old. He'd be quite good. Maybe Andy Garcia?

>>I think the Mia Sara suggestion works well. Dark hair, big eyes,
>>dazzling smile, and looks & acts Much more Froggish than Ryder.

>Geez, I'm going to have to figure out who this is. Still, I really like
>my "Like Water for Chocolate" suggestion, even if I don't know her name.

Lumi Cavasos (I think that's her last name). I vote for Mia Sara.

>>For just VO -- DEFINITELY Anne Parillaud from LA FEMME NIKITA and
>>INNOCENT BLOOD. My trailer vision begins with someone accessing the
>>Exodus Bible and her voice intoning into near-silence, "Une fois, il y a
>>ete un voleur, et le voleur a ete Dieu." as the English translation
>>reads across a black screen in electric blue letters -- "Once there was
>>a Thief, and the Thief was God."

>I can see this. (Somebody had better come take me away to the funny
>farm.)

Dear God, so can I, and I haven't lived with either one of you.

>> SUZANNE MONTIGNET -- I absolutely love Emma Thompson. Oh, uhhh, >>she'd
be perfect for the part, too. All male BS aside, there is no >>better
choice.

>:-)

>As to someone's comment that Suzanne is old, it is worth remembering >that
medical technology is a lot better in the 21st century. That is to >say,
your typical eighty-year-old probably looks like your typical
>forty-year-old these days. Emma would be perfect.

Hear, hear. (Or, as they say at here at PSU, "here, here.")

>> And, last but only maybe least, DENICE CASTANAVERAS -- Not nearly >>as
important in tLR as in tLD, but I'd like to put Winona Ryder here
>>tentatively. She's got great range, dark hair, and would have the
>>youthful naivete thing that plagues both Denice AND Trent in tLD down
>>cold. No way Jodie Foster. Hell of an actor, but needs more prominent
>>eyes and darker hair.

>Ugh. I think I'd be in favor of finding newcomers to play Trent, >Denice,
and Jimmy --- no names I've heard so far come even close.

Concur (about Ryder). Trent: maybe Wil Wheaton? :)

Josh

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 93 00:33 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Movie
--------
>Actually, I don't think the soundtrack should necessarily try to sound
>like 21st century music. But Queen is still out --- the band does not
>exist anymore.

Sorry, I forgot the smiley. I'm not looking for 21st century music, but I
do think that the music should be rather heavy. (At least while they're in
the Fringe. I hear a more upbeat, jubilant motive for when Trent starts his
Run.

>Anyway, I was thinking a little more along the lines of Vangelis (at >least
his older stuff) or Enya. Not either of those, but synth heavy >music of a
not-so-rocky vein. (Bri, who was that Japanese guy whose >tapes you had?)
Throw in touches of Pink Floyd and Hindemith, maybe a >little Shostakovich,
and stir.

I can see (or is it hear?) an Enya or a Vangelis soundtrack, or at least
songs. Maybe a medley of different styles, for the different moods of the
books.

Josh

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 1993 13:37:50 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], solomon foster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: tLR- The Movie
--------
On Tue, 23 Nov 1993, Solomon Foster wrote:

> From: Andrew Bailey <[email protected]>
> >Trent - Christian Slater
> >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> >Carl Castanaveras - Charlie Sheen
> >Marko Kalahari?? - Sean Connery
> >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> >Nathan Dark Clouds - Lou Diamond Phillips
> >Chritian Summers - Robert Redford
> >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> >Jimmy Ramirez - Tom Cruise
> >Callia - Rene Russo
> >Denice - Jodie Foster
>
> Anyway, I got a few ideas today while practicing the piano, so here are
> a few suggestions:
>
> >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
> - Gerard Depedieu (well, however you spell it.) He's an imposing
> presence, looks at least as Arab as Arnie does, and actually has the
> correct accent. And he will be much more convincing as the
> intelligent oppenent, and much, much more convincing when he
> realizes the magnitude of his error in _Revolution_ and has to act a
> bit. (Of course, unlike Arnie, for Gerard, the stiffness of a
> cyborg would be an act . . . )

Oh get real please Gerard Depardieu. As the the most feared Elite on the
planet. To start with hes not wide enough. I always get the impression
that the Elite are built like human tanks. Arnie is perfect for the role
as long as you americans dont make him president before the movie becomes
a reality.

> >Suzanne Montignet - Angerla Lansbury
> - Emma Thompson. Angela Lansbury should only play evil old women
> and teapots. Emma is the right age (or thereabouts), and has the
> skill to convincingly play an Americanized French woman.
>
> Storyteller - Kenneth Branagh. (get the picture that I don't know how to
> spell these names?) We want him to direct, so we'd better give him a
> roll. Storyteller seems like a good bet.
>
> Camber - The guy from "Highlander". (or even remember the names, even
> when I should?)

Christopher Lambert. Having you been taking drugs?? This guy was good
in my favourite movie of all time. But he really doesnt speak english
that well. And if he were in this Id keep expecting him to remove peoples
heads with a Katana.

> >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
> - the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
> knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.

Shes too small to turn into an Elite. You wouldnt be able to fit the
combat computers and all the other extras in.

FX-Chandler Keith Richards for that aging drug abusing, filthy rich
rocker look.

[email protected]
The University of Western Australia
Perth, Western Australia

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 1993 13:53:36 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], brian wells/dave brodek <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
On Tue, 23 Nov 1993, Brian Wells/Dave Brodek wrote:

>
> A quick postthought --
>
> What about Michael Biehn as Christian Summers?
>
I was going to say this guy cant act but for this role it doesnt really
matter. He would be pretty good I reckon.

[email protected]
The University of Western Australia
Perth, Western Australia

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 1993 08:03:02 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: DKM: The Movie
--------
Josh writes:
>Sol writes
>>Anyway, I was thinking a little more along the lines of Vangelis (at
>>least his older stuff) or Enya. Not either of those, but synth heavy
>>music of a not-so-rocky vein. (Bri, who was that Japanese guy whose
>>tapes you had?) Throw in touches of Pink Floyd and Hindemith, maybe a
>>little Shostakovich, and stir.

>I can see (or is it hear?) an Enya or a Vangelis soundtrack, or at least
>songs. Maybe a medley of different styles, for the different moods of
>the books.

Thinking a bit more about this as I drifted to sleep last night, I got
more specific. I'm thinking of the Vangelis's "Blade Runner", "Heaven
and Hell", and "Opera Sauvage", Enya's stuff from "LA Story", the sax in
mid-70's Floyd, Hindemith's "Symphonic Metamorphsis", and Shostakovich's
Symphonies #10 and 11. (Not the actual pieces, just the musical styles.)

Andrew writes:
>> >Mohamed Vance - Arnie
>> - Gerard Depedieu (well, however you spell it.) He's an imposing
>> presence, looks at least as Arab as Arnie does, and actually has the
>> correct accent. And he will be much more convincing as the
>> intelligent oppenent, and much, much more convincing when he
>> realizes the magnitude of his error in _Revolution_ and has to act a
>> bit. (Of course, unlike Arnie, for Gerard, the stiffness of a
>> cyborg would be an act . . . )
>
>Oh get real please Gerard Depardieu. As the the most feared Elite on the
>planet. To start with hes not wide enough. I always get the impression
>that the Elite are built like human tanks. Arnie is perfect for the role
>as long as you americans dont make him president before the movie becomes
>a reality.

Ugh, ugh, ugh. I'll admit Depardieu would not be ideal, but Arnie would
totally ruin the role. I mean, why not get Andre the Giant for the
role? (Besides the fact he's dead.) He's bigger than Arnold, Elite are
big, QED.

Arnold doesn't have the right appearance, accent, and, most importantly,
the acting ability to convince us that he is a intelligent, capable
leader and make us sympathize with him, even while he is the villain.
He has exactly two things going for him: he's big, and he's famous.

As someone else pointed out, the villain is very possibily the most
important role in the movie. (A hero is defined by his opposite, and
all that.) As such, I'd much, much rather have someone who can act the
part than someone who looks the part. (Of course, preferably I'd like
both, so I'm still open to suggestions.)

>> Camber - The guy from "Highlander". (or even remember the names, even
>> when I should?)
>
> Christopher Lambert. Having you been taking drugs?? This guy was good
>in my favourite movie of all time. But he really doesnt speak english
>that well. And if he were in this Id keep expecting him to remove
>peoples heads with a Katana.

A) Camber is not a native speaker of English. He is a native speaker of
a language which does not exist at this time. Lambert's "I'm from many
places" accent would make more sense here than it did in Highlander.

B) Expecting him to remove people's heads with a sword-type weapon is
_right_. Remember, there's a "lightsaber" fight between Camber and
Storyteller in Emerald Eyes; that thingee invented by Ola Blue is the
preferred weapon of United Earth Intelligence.

>> >Mellisa Du'Bois - Wynona Ryder
>> - the lead from "Like Water for Chocolate". (here, I never ever
>> knew her name.) Fits my mental image of Mellisa a lot more closely.
>
>Shes too small to turn into an Elite. You wouldnt be able to fit the
>combat computers and all the other extras in.

I don't really remember how big she is, but I don't think size is a
limitation on Elite by Trent's time. Remember, the combat computer is a
nano-computer.

-Sol

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 1993 00:12:25 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Movie
--------
Josh writes:
>Sol writes:
>>Actually, I'd rather have an original soundtrack for the movie, and that
>>makes a Queen soundtrack problematic, as I mentioned earlier.

>Hear, hear. Definitely an original soundtrack. But who do we solicit to
>make contributions to the soundtrack? I nominate Nine Inch Nails and
>Enigma. No Queen, sorry. Nobody knows what a guitar is, remember?

Actually, I don't think the soundtrack should necessarily try to sound
like 21st century music. But Queen is still out --- the band does not
exist anymore.

Anyway, I was thinking a little more along the lines of Vangelis (at
least his older stuff) or Enya. Not either of those, but synth heavy
music of a not-so-rocky vein. (Bri, who was that Japanese guy whose
tapes you had?) Throw in touches of Pink Floyd and Hindemith, maybe a
little Shostakovich, and stir.

Hell, easiest thing would be for me to write it, to be played by Bri and
I and whoever else on this list is talented, enthuasiastic, or both.
Anyone out there who can sing?

>>Bri writes:
>>>I think the Mia Sara suggestion works well. Dark hair, big eyes,
>>>dazzling smile, and looks & acts Much more Froggish than Ryder.
>
>>Geez, I'm going to have to figure out who this is. Still, I really like
>>my "Like Water for Chocolate" suggestion, even if I don't know her name.
>
>Lumi Cavasos (I think that's her last name). I vote for Mia Sara.

>>>For just VO -- DEFINITELY Anne Parillaud from LA FEMME NIKITA and
>>>INNOCENT BLOOD. My trailer vision begins with someone accessing the
>>>Exodus Bible and her voice intoning into near-silence, "Une fois, il y a
>>>ete un voleur, et le voleur a ete Dieu." as the English translation
>>>reads across a black screen in electric blue letters -- "Once there was
>>>a Thief, and the Thief was God."
>
>>I can see this. (Somebody had better come take me away to the funny
>>farm.)
>
>Dear God, so can I, and I haven't lived with either one of you.

You should be very, very scared.

****************
Fri, 05 Nov 1993 23:02:37 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ring's reasons"
--------
In message <[email protected]>you write:
>Hmm... I think Ring was employing "Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
>psychology - you have to make things WORSE before people
>will work to make them better.

Exactly. Note (to partially reply to a different message) that
there is a larger revolution in the works --- the second of the
upcoming Trent books is "Players, Book Two: Revolution". How
well it works is another question . . . (Especially since Vance
kills Trent in "Players, Book One: The AI War" . . . )

(:
Sol

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:18:26 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (the continuing time mailing list)
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
> A quick postthought --
>
> What about Michael Biehn as Christian Summers?

BINGO! You may have hit this one right on the head, for me at least... I
was wondering who it was my mental image of Summers looked like... Michael
Biehn... Just please let Jim Cameron stick with his original stance of "Not
interested." in doing this film. I like Cameron's work, but not for this...
I see this as either a Branagh or a Ridley Scott film...

--
Ender
================================================-=============================
Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
================================================-=============================

****************
Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:28:06 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (the continuing time mailing list)
Subject: Re: The Movie
--------
> Hear, hear. Definitely an original soundtrack. But who do we solicit to
> make contributions to the soundtrack? I nominate Nine Inch Nails and
> Enigma. No Queen, sorry. Nobody knows what a guitar is, remember?

Good point. Get Anne Dudley from the Art of Noise to work on scoring...
she's done a few soundtracks and is definitely up on the electronic and
synthesized sounds thing... =) I'd limit the actual "songs" in the movie,
but we should get someone to do the <Ender's brain skips out on him> uh...
uh... you know... that chick that Trent digs... uh... damn.

And if someone suggests Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, Whiney Houston, or Mariah
Carey I'll scream...

> >>I think the Mia Sara suggestion works well. Dark hair, big eyes,
> >>dazzling smile, and looks & acts Much more Froggish than Ryder.
>
> >Geez, I'm going to have to figure out who this is. Still, I really like
> >my "Like Water for Chocolate" suggestion, even if I don't know her name.
>
> Lumi Cavasos (I think that's her last name). I vote for Mia Sara.

Hmmm... anyone keeping track of the characters we mostly agree on? Looks
like Connery for F.X. Chandler and Mia Sara for Melissa...

> >> SUZANNE MONTIGNET -- I absolutely love Emma Thompson. Oh, uhhh, >>she'd
> be perfect for the part, too. All male BS aside, there is no >>better
> choice.
>
> >:-)
>
> >As to someone's comment that Suzanne is old, it is worth remembering >that
> medical technology is a lot better in the 21st century. That is to >say,
> your typical eighty-year-old probably looks like your typical
> >forty-year-old these days. Emma would be perfect.
>
> Hear, hear. (Or, as they say at here at PSU, "here, here.")

Oops... and Emma as Suzanne!!

> >> And, last but only maybe least, DENICE CASTANAVERAS -- Not nearly >>as
> important in tLR as in tLD, but I'd like to put Winona Ryder here
> >>tentatively. She's got great range, dark hair, and would have the
> >>youthful naivete thing that plagues both Denice AND Trent in tLD down
> >>cold. No way Jodie Foster. Hell of an actor, but needs more prominent
> >>eyes and darker hair.
>
> >Ugh. I think I'd be in favor of finding newcomers to play Trent, >Denice,
> and Jimmy --- no names I've heard so far come even close.

So far I'm leaning towards newcomers as well... so we won't look and go, "Oh,
it's X playing Trent." I want to believe it IS Trent...

> Concur (about Ryder). Trent: maybe Wil Wheaton? :)

ACK! GASP! BLECH!

The word NEVER comes to mind...

Hmmmm... Maybe we could ressurect River Phoenix? =) =) =)

--
Ender
================================================-=============================
Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
================================================-=============================

****************
Tue, 16 Nov 1993 17:27:18 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (john r. snead)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Camber
--------
I tried to post this once already and it bounced, if this is a duplicate of
my previous post let me know so I won't keep doing this. We'll see if try
#2 works.

Well, first of all, Hi there, I'm new to the list, and just wanted to say hi.
Now, a question, who the heck is Camber? He's a telepath, and a nightface,
is he another of Denice's descendants? It seems unlikely, so how did their get
to be other telepaths, more geneering, or some other way. Also, anyone have
any ideas what his goals are wrt Denise (he seems more intent on protecting her than the Storyteller, who is defiantely her descendant (and so has a very
strong motive to protect her), and Trent, who, if Camber is truly the God of Plyers (oops, Players) Camber seems interested in protecting. Also, any idea what
The name storyteller and Camber are actually up to? Also, I just saw DKM's posting, wow Continuing tome RPG's, that would be great, anyone know anything
more recent than Aug 92 abotu either the Cyberpunk version, or anything else?
Take care all. "You are born broken; life is healing" -John [email protected]

****************
Thu, 18 Nov 1993 16:58:41 -0800
****************

From: [email protected] (john r. snead)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Gods and Time Travellers
--------
I was just rereading part of tLD. There seems to be a curious dichotomy.
(Here I am taking as given that Camber and the God of Plyers are the same)
When Camber talks to Robert he come across as this powerful imressive guy from the future. However, when he talked to Denise he seemed to be more, and different. Of course it is possible that Camber is unrelated to The God of Players, but
I think that unlikely. So, what are we to make of this. Well, there is a similar dichotomy with THe Name Storyteller when he is narrating, and when he speaks to Trent through Neil. Once again in the 2nd case he is acting as a god.
So, Camber and the Storyteller are both time travelers from the future, and
Zaradin deities. Sometimes they act as one,sometimes as the other.
I see 2 possible (and not necessarily mutually exclusive) ideas.
1) There is a whole leot of time travel going on, and they are deities
considerably (perhaps 1000's of subjective years) later in their lifetime's
So it is perhaps Camber at age 100 who talks to Robert, and Camber at say
age 5000 who talks to Denice. The other option is Camber and the Storyteller
are themelves avatars for gods. (Of course this means that Trent talked
to a god who used the storyteller for an avatar, who used Neil for an avatar.
The oddest possibility yet is that possibility 1 & 2 are Both true, think about
it. Blessed Be all -John [email protected]

****************
Thu, 25 Nov 93 22:28:36 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Da Moovie
--------
Jean Claude Van Dumb is precisely five feet, four inches tall. Not exactly
Mohammed Vance material.

Not, mind you, that I don't like his flicks. HARD TARGET is definitely in
my top twenty favorite action movies list.

****************
Fri, 26 Nov 1993 17:58:42 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
To: [email protected] (the continuing time mailing list)
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
> > Just please let Jim Cameron stick with his original stance of "Not
> > interested." in doing this film. I like Cameron's work, but not for this...
> > I see this as either a Branagh or a Ridley Scott film...

> Yes I agree. Keep Cameron away away away. However Ridley Scott sounds
> very keen ( I watched Blade Runner again last night) and we should use
> the cars from Blade Runner they are what AreoSmiths look like.

Jim Burns, who did the cover for tLR (the only one I've ever seen at least,
with the purple Chandler Mk <whatever>) also designed the aircars for Blade
Runner...

--
Ender
================================================-=============================
Pete "Ender" Walsh, AlterNet Install Engineer | Internet: [email protected]
UUNet Technologies, Falls Church, VA. | UUCP: {anysite}!uunet!ender
================================================-=============================

****************
Thu, 25 Nov 1993 12:53:41 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], solomon foster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: DKM: The Movie
--------
> Andrew writes:
> >Oh get real please Gerard Depardieu. As the the most feared Elite on the
> >planet. To start with hes not wide enough. I always get the impression
> >that the Elite are built like human tanks. Arnie is perfect for the role
> >as long as you americans dont make him president before the movie becomes
> >a reality.
>
> Ugh, ugh, ugh. I'll admit Depardieu would not be ideal, but Arnie would
> totally ruin the role. I mean, why not get Andre the Giant for the
> role? (Besides the fact he's dead.) He's bigger than Arnold, Elite are
> big, QED.
>
> Arnold doesn't have the right appearance, accent, and, most importantly,
> the acting ability to convince us that he is a intelligent, capable
> leader and make us sympathize with him, even while he is the villain.
> He has exactly two things going for him: he's big, and he's famous.
>
> As someone else pointed out, the villain is very possibily the most
> important role in the movie. (A hero is defined by his opposite, and
> all that.) As such, I'd much, much rather have someone who can act the
> part than someone who looks the part. (Of course, preferably I'd like
> both, so I'm still open to suggestions.)

What about Jean Claude Van Damme the accent's right the size is right and
now all we have to do is give him a brain transplant. And Acting ability.

I agree with your point that the villian in this movie is very important.

Skippy

[email protected]
The University of Western Australia
Perth, Western Australia

****************
Fri, 26 Nov 1993 10:14:32 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew bailey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected] (pete "ender" walsh)
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
> Just please let Jim Cameron stick with his original stance of "Not
> interested." in doing this film. I like Cameron's work, but not for this...
> I see this as either a Branagh or a Ridley Scott film...
>
Yes I agree. Keep Cameron away away away. However Ridley Scott sounds
very keen ( I watched Blade Runner again last night) and we should use
the cars from Blade Runner they are what AreoSmiths look like.
More thoughts are if its animated I don't think Disney is the go. I feel
they would make it cute. But perhaps we should get the guy who did
Akira. The animation in that was superb espcially the detail. However I
tend to find in animae that emotions are a tad too exaggerated.
And for a sequel based on tLD who to play Robert Yo well how about
Jackie Chan can do the marshall arts and can act a bit( and I he can
really do the marshall arts).

The Acolyte

--
I'm just a hard working corporate slave |
My mind should hate what my body does crave|
I'm just a humble corporate slave |
Working my way to a corporate grave - Snog| [email protected]

****************
Fri, 26 Nov 1993 11:23:29 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], pete ender walsh <[email protected]>, andrew bailey <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
> And for a sequel based on tLD who to play Robert Yo well how about
> Jackie Chan can do the marshall arts and can act a bit( and I he can
> really do the marshall arts).
>
Can Jackie Chan speak english?? Usually they dub his movies dont they?

[email protected]
The University of Western Australia
Perth, Western Australia

****************
Fri, 26 Nov 1993 13:26:58 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: andrew mccoll <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], brian wells/dave brodek <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Da Bluddy Moovie
--------
> Jean Claude Van Dumb is precisely five feet, four inches tall. Not exactly
> Mohammed Vance material.
>
You could always shoot him from a low angle to make him look taller. Have
short people stand around him.

[email protected]
The University of Western Australia
Perth, Western Australia

****************
Fri, 26 Nov 1993 14:15:42 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] (andrew mccoll)
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
>
> > And for a sequel based on tLD who to play Robert Yo well how about
> > Jackie Chan can do the marshall arts and can act a bit( and I he can
> > really do the marshall arts).
> >
> Can Jackie Chan speak english?? Usually they dub his movies dont they?
>
> [email protected]
> The University of Western Australia
> Perth, Western Australia
>
>
>
Of course he can speak English. He even has Australian citizenship. Don't you
know that Jackie Chan is God.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Fri, 26 Nov 1993 14:14:22 +0800 (WST)
****************

From: greg wheatley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected] (brian wells/dave brodek)
Subject: Re: Da Moovie
--------
>
>
> Jean Claude Van Dumb is precisely five feet, four inches tall. Not exactly
> Mohammed Vance material.
>
> Not, mind you, that I don't like his flicks. HARD TARGET is definitely in
> my top twenty favorite action movies list.
>
>
Please, show some taste and do not speak profanity on this list. Joke Claude
is far down on the list of capabler actors, and his films way down on the list
of watchable. True, the incredible John Woo directed Hard Target, but this is
not enough. Now if Jackie Chan or Chow Yun-Fat was in it, then it'd be a real
action movie.

Regards,
Greg

--
* "The quickest way to a man's heart is between the fourth and *
* fifth ribs, angled upwards." *
* [email protected] *
*******************************************************************

****************
Wed, 1 Dec 93 16:16 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: David and Denice
--------
There's something I've been wondering about, and I was hoping the massed
resources of the list could help me with it... In EE, Malko and Carl have a
conversation about the naming of the telepaths, just before they're attacked
by the car with the laser cannon. Malko explains that Carl got his name
from the fact that he was the 55th specimen to undergo the procedure which
created the telepaths; Lot C, Specimen C. Likewise, Jany was Lot J, specimen
M. Carl then asks Malko if he's ever wondered why he named the twins David
and Denice, and Malko thinks about it and says "You've got a warped sense of
humor, son." Maybe I'm just dense (No comments!), but what was the joke?

****************
Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:09:12 -0500 (EST)
****************

From: marcus eubanks <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: the Prophet Harry (again)
--------
I'm still trying to discover anything anyone might be able to tell me
about the Prophey Harry Devlin. He was evidently a fairly important
figure in the Erisian church. We see his name crop up occasionally in
oaths, "Jesus and Harry girl, get a life." Mayor Quentin Noas has one of
his paintings on his wall (tLR p. 247), of a bleeding doll held in the
teeth of a kitten. "Nah, you couldn't afford it; it was painted by the
Prophet Harry hisself."

Anything? Anyone?

Marcus Eubanks N3ETR | "Say it with a brick," I say.
<[email protected]> | -Ignatz Mouse, 1922
|
Temple U. Sch. of Medicine 1996 | "There is a heppy lend fur-fur
Philadelphia, PA USA | a-waaaaay-" -Krazy Kat, 1922

****************
Fri, 03 Dec 1993 08:48:44 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: David and Denice
--------
Josh writes:
>There's something I've been wondering about, and I was hoping the massed
>resources of the list could help me with it... In EE, Malko and Carl have a
>conversation about the naming of the telepaths, just before they're attacked
>by the car with the laser cannon. Malko explains that Carl got his name
>from the fact that he was the 55th specimen to undergo the procedure which
>created the telepaths; Lot C, Specimen C. Likewise, Jany was Lot J, specimen
>M. Carl then asks Malko if he's ever wondered why he named the twins David
>and Denice, and Malko thinks about it and says "You've got a warped sense of
>humor, son." Maybe I'm just dense (No comments!), but what was the joke?

Just so it's clear someone else got your message, let me add that I
am completely clueless. My inital assumption was that it would be
something like 69, but it isn't. DC=81, DDC=2109. I suppse the
latter might be a year of significance (the death of the original
Castanaveras, perhaps?) but that doesn't seem like much of a joke.

-Sol

****************
Fri, 3 Dec 1993 10:00:38 +0500
****************

From: [email protected] (jeffrey keller)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: David and Denice
Content-Length: 166
--------
It's nothing that elaborate. The point is just that Carl knew that
his initials weren't random and, accordingly, gave his kids initials
that succeeded his own.
--JK

****************
Fri, 3 Dec 93 14:31 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: David and Denice
--------
>It's nothing that elaborate. The point is just that Carl knew that
>his initials weren't random and, accordingly, gave his kids initials
>that succeeded his own.
>--JK

Thanks for explaining. That has to be one of the most anticlimactic jokes
I've ever heard. All of the effort I spent in trying to figure it out, for
that? Ugh.

Josh

****************
Sat, 4 Dec 93 17:34:01 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: David and Denice
--------
> Just so it's clear someone else got your message, let me add that I
> am completely clueless. My inital assumption was that it would be
> something like 69, but it isn't. DC=81, DDC=2109. I suppse the
> latter might be a year of significance (the death of the original
> Castanaveras, perhaps?) but that doesn't seem like much of a joke.

Couldn't be Castanaveras' death. As of tLD, we're still in the 21st
century. As for the explanation offered about succeeding initials, I agree.
That seems waaaaay anticlimactic. As in "almost TOO anticlimactic"...

****************
Sat, 4 Dec 1993 22:12:52 -0800 (PST)
****************

From: joel isaac singer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (dkm mailing list)
Subject: Favorite scene...
--------
Just to point out a _really_ _good_ _scene_ in tLD...

To me it seemed like the whole book was written just so Moran could include
the "This is Why We Fight" scene. Shifting back and forth between the
Johnny Rebs and the PKF, both of them absolutely, totally assured that what
they are doing is *right*, and both of them absolutely, totally opposed to
each other...and both of them believe that they are acting for the greater
good of humanity, too. Great stuff.

Joel Singer Stanford University [email protected]
The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life.

****************
Thu, 9 Dec 93 22:28:27 -0600
****************

From: "brian wells/dave brodek" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Ever-Present SFC Captain
--------
Boy have WE been quiet lately! To start something, did anyone besides me
notice that the captain of the LEW ALTON in tLD (The SFC ship upon which Trent
and Jimmy ran away from UN Spacy by running toward them) was named Capt.
Saunders, the same name as the captain of the CAPTAIN SIR DOMINIC FLANDRY in tLR
(the ship upon which Trent got to sit next to Melissa for hours on end, among
other things)?

****************
Thu, 9 Dec 1993 23:53:02 -0400 (EST)
****************

From: rebecca drayer <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Ever-Present SFC Captain
--------
On Thu, 9 Dec 1993, Brian Wells/Dave Brodek wrote:

>
> Boy have WE been quiet lately! To start something, did anyone besides me
> notice that the captain of the LEW ALTON in tLD (The SFC ship upon which Trent
> and Jimmy ran away from UN Spacy by running toward them) was named Capt.
> Saunders, the same name as the captain of the CAPTAIN SIR DOMINIC FLANDRY in tLR
> (the ship upon which Trent got to sit next to Melissa for hours on end, among
> other things)?

Lew Alton? DKM wouldn't happen to be a Darkover fan, would he? :-)

******************************************************************************
Rebecca A. Drayer, EMT-A | [email protected]
(a.k.a Organic Lass of the LNH) | Silliman College, Yale University

"Back to work! This isn't a summer camp, this is RESEARCH!!!!"
- A grad student in the lab down the hall
******************************************************************************

****************
Fri, 10 Dec 1993 00:17:45 -0500
****************

From: solomon foster <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Ever-Present SFC Captain
--------
Bri wrote:
>> Boy have WE been quiet lately! To start something, did anyone
>>besides me notice that the captain of the LEW ALTON in tLD (The SFC ship
>>upon which Trent and Jimmy ran away from UN Spacy by running toward
>>them) was named Capt. Saunders, the same name as the captain of the
>>CAPTAIN SIR DOMINIC FLANDRY in tLR (the ship upon which Trent got to sit
>>next to Melissa for hours on end, among other things)?

Rebecca Drayer wrote:
>Lew Alton? DKM wouldn't happen to be a Darkover fan, would he? :-)

Nope, and he's not a Heinlein or Anderson fan, either.

-Sol

ps What authors have I missed (or forgotten) reference to? (In the
text, not the credits.)

****************
Fri, 10 Dec 93 01:40:42 EST
****************

From: david silberstein <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: The Ever-Present SFC Captain
--------
>Bri wrote:
>>> Boy have WE been quiet lately! To start something, did anyone
>>>besides me notice that the captain of the LEW ALTON in tLD (The SFC ship
>>>upon which Trent and Jimmy ran away from UN Spacy by running toward
>>>them) was named Capt. Saunders, the same name as the captain of the
>>>CAPTAIN SIR DOMINIC FLANDRY in tLR (the ship upon which Trent got to sit
>>>next to Melissa for hours on end, among other things)?
>
>Rebecca Drayer wrote:
>>Lew Alton? DKM wouldn't happen to be a Darkover fan, would he? :-)
>
>Nope, and he's not a Heinlein or Anderson fan, either.
>
> -Sol
>
>ps What authors have I missed (or forgotten) reference to? (In the
>text, not the credits.)
>
H H Milne.
"Winnie the what indeed"
:-)
--David the Pooh

****************
Fri, 10 Dec 93 02:22 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Ever-Present SFC Captain
--------
>>ps What authors have I missed (or forgotten) reference to? (In the
>>text, not the credits.)
>>
>H H Milne.
>"Winnie the what indeed"
Or rather, A A Milne. Don't tell me there's no Paddington reference; there
has to be a Paddington reference! Who would refer to Winnie the Pooh and not
mention Paddington? Oh well... BTW, you forgot the Loonie Tunes Guys. :)

Wile E. Coyote

"Acme: The Name You Trust"

****************
Tue, 14 Dec 93 01:52 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Morte d'Arthur
--------
Okay, we know that Camber Tremodian kills King Arthur, and we know that Dvan
fought in the Battle of Camel Hill with Arthur. In fact, DKM makes rather a
big deal of Dvan's involvement in that battle. So my question is, why?
Does King Arthur play some important part in the Continuing Time? Any
groundless speculation is welcome.

Josh

****************
Tue, 14 Dec 93 9:22:31 PST
****************

From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Morte d'Arthur
--------
>Okay, we know that Camber Tremodian kills King Arthur, and we know that Dvan
>fought in the Battle of Camel Hill with Arthur. In fact, DKM makes rather a
>big deal of Dvan's involvement in that battle. So my question is, why?
>Does King Arthur play some important part in the Continuing Time? Any
>groundless speculation is welcome.

In the timeline, there was:

The Lord in His Castle 540 to 589 A.D.

I assume that's it.

Sean.

****************
Tue, 14 Dec 93 12:32 EST
****************

From: "josh kaderlan" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Morte d'Arthur
--------
>In the timeline, there was:

> The Lord in His Castle 540 to 589 A.D.

>I assume that's it.

Okay, fine, take the fun out of it. :)

Josh