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Subject: Fuhrman Tapes - Motion
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Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr., SBN 033334
Carl E. Douglas, SBN 097011
Shawn S. Chapman, SBN 136811
F. Lee Bailey, FLSBN 0820520
Alan M. Dershowitz MASBN 121200
Robert D. Blasier SBN 047480
Peter J. Neufeld
Gerald F. Uelmen, SBN 039909
LAW OFFICES OF JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN. JR.
4929 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 1010
Los Angeles, California 90010-3856
(213) 931-2600
Robert L. Shapiro, SBN 04393
LAW OFFICES OF ROBERT L. SHAPIRO
2121 Avenue of the Stars, 19th Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Attorneys for Defendant Orenthal James Simpson
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS
ANGELES
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
a.k.a. O.J. SIMPSON
Defendants
CASE NO. BA 097211
DEFENSE AMENDED OFFER OF PROOF RE: FUHRMAN TAPES
TO THE HONORABLE LANCE A. ITO JUDGE OF THE SUPERIOR COURT OF LOS
ANGELES COUNTY, AND TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY FOR THE COUNTY OF
LOS ANGELES AND HIS DEPUTIES:
The defendant ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, by and through his counsel
of record, hereby makes this officer[sic] of proof of excerpts
>from the tapes and transcripts delivered to the Court by Laura
Hart McKinny in response to the out-of-state subpoena served in
North Carolina.
DATED: Agust 22, 1995
Respectfully submitted,
LAW OFFICES OF JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR.
BY: /s/Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr.
/s/Gerald F. Uelmen
/s/Carl E. Douglas
/s/Shawn S. Chapman
/s/F. Lee Bailey
LAW OFFICES OF ROBERT L. SHAPIRO
BY: /s/ROBERT L. SHAPIRO
A. Context of the "Fuhrman Tapes"
The evidence will establish that in February, 1985, Laura McKinny
first met Los Angeles Police Department Officer Mark Fuhrman in a
Westwood restaurant. At the time, Ms. McKinny was employed by
U.C.L.A., assisting in an educational program for athletes. She
was also a writer, interested in writing a screenplay and a novel
about the experience of women police officers. After learning
that Officer Fuhrman was an L.A.P.D. officer and had strong views
about the employment of women as L.A.P.D. officers, Ms. McKinny
engaged Fuhrman as a consultant, to provide background
information about the reality of the experiences of L.A.P.D.
police officers and to serve as a technical advisor in the
development of a screenplay.
Ms. McKinny met with Officer Fuhrman for a series of taped
interviews spread over a ten-year period, from April, 1985 to
July, 1994. The interviews were transcribed by her onto twelve
transcripts, dated as follows:
1. April 2, 1985
2. April 1985 (no day noted).
3. April 15, 1985
4. April 16 1985
5. August 20, 1985
6. April 23 1985
7. May 23 1986
8. August 22, 1986
9. April 7, 1987
10. 1988 (no month or day noted).
11. June 1993 (no day noted).
12. July 28, 1994
The tapes for the transcribed interviews were retained, with the
exception of the first and the ninth, which were subsequently
taped over. Thus, the "tape numbers" do not match the "transcript
numbers." In a subsequent transcription of the tapes prepared by
the defense, the transcripts were assigned the same numbers as
the tapes, giving rise to the confusion the court encountered in
correlating the offer of proof to the transcripts. Apparently,
the court was not supplied with the transcripts prepared by Ms.
McKinny, from which the original offer of proof was compiled. In
this amended offer of proof, the twelve transcripts prepared by
Laura Hart McKinny will be referred to as McKinny Transcript No.
__ p.__. The transcriptions of the tapes prepared by the defense
will be referred to as "Tape no.__, p.__."
In the case of the McKinny transcripts of tapes that were
subsequently taped over, there will, of course, be no cross
reference to tapes. These items will be proven by the
recollection of Laura Hart McKinny, or where she has insufficient
present recollection to enable her to testify fully and
accurately, by offering her transcript as past recollection
recorded under California Evidence Code Section 1237. There is
also one tapes[sic] that was never transcribed by Ms. McKinny.
This has now been transcribed as Defense Tape No. 9. References
to this tape in the Offer of Proof will not include
cross-references to McKinny transcripts. In addition, tapes no. 7
and 10 contain material that was never transcribed by Ms.
McKinny. Her transcript No. 7 is labeled "Excerpts from Tape,"
and her transcript No. 10 is in summary form. Thus, some excerpts
>from Tapes No. 7 and No. 10 will not include cross-references to
McKinny transcripts.
On two occasions, Ms. McKinny utilized additional persons to meet
with Detective Fuhrman and participate in the interviews. Both
interviews were conducted on April 23, 1985 and the participants
were Martha (Lorrie) Diaz, a friend of Ms. McKinny's, and James
Washington, then a student of Ms. McKinny's at U.S.L.A., now a
professional football player.
In her Transcript No. 6, Ms. McKinny separately numbered the
transcript of the meeting with Detective Fuhrman and Ms. Diaz
(referred to as McKinny Transcript 6-1) and the meeting with
Detective Fuhrman and Mr. Washington ( referred to as McKinny
Transcript 6-2). In Tapes No. 6A and 6B, the meetings appear in a
different order than they appear in the McKinny transcript.
The nature of her transcripts reflects the development of Ms.
McKinny's project. The earlier transcripts were background
interviews, in which Fuhrman was asked to recount personal
experiences and give his personal point of view. McKinny
Transcript No. 1, for example, includes her request to "know
these mundane details," and "your sequence of daily events."
(p.1) and the reminder, "we're using you as an example of
course." (p.18). McKinny Transcript No. 4, p. 1 (Tape No. 4, p.
1) contains the following exchange:
HART: I just transcribe you.
FUHRMAN: Verbatim
HART: I have to.
FUHRMAN: All the cocksuckers. Everything. That's important.
That's policeman's talk.
HART: It's life talk. It's not just policemen's talk.
FUHRMAN: But, we have mastered it. No, the Marine corps mastered
it.
Later, in the same interview, Ms. McKinny clarified the
underlying purpose of her interviews:
HART: Exactly. Look Mark, all we're really trying to do . . .
first of all the premise is real clear. And none of the research
that I do, no matter what I'm doing, riding along, spending the
night in Watts, it doesn't change the premise. It's just that
this kind of story is so controversial, that it has to be so
well-documented that you get enough other people's point of view,
so that if somebody calls you on it, you say: `yeh, I did that. I
heard what they had to say. I was there.'
FUHRMAN: Yeh. The only thing is, are they telling the truth?
MCKINNY: It's their truth.
FUHRMAN: How do you prove it?
MCKINNY: You perceive things the way you perceive them due to
your frame of reference, background and learned experience, same
with me, same with Joe. . .
(Tape No. 4, p.12; McKinny Transcript No.4, p. 15).
The interviews also included Officer Fuhrman's reactions to
drafts of the screenplay, and the characters an dialogues
presented.
The occasions when Officer Fuhrman is making suggestions
regarding fictional portrayals are easily identifiable from the
context of the interviews. Most often, he is reacting to the
portrayals in terms of whether they realistically reflect his own
experiences. Ms. McKinny described his "creative participation"
in these terms:
"The problem with this Mark is that the people that we're
creating . . . I don't have any problem with you at all. I don't
have any problem working over the ideas with you, and having you
read over scenes and saying, `No, I wouldn't say that,' or `Yes,
I would.' . . . . .That's part of your creative participation in
what we are doing. But, as far as a female goes, that's more
difficult, because if you create her as someone who is weak, who
cares."
(Tape No. 4, p. 16; McKinny Transcript No. 4, p.21).
Throughout the interviews, Officer Fuhrman offers first person
experiences, in terms of "I" did this, or "I" did that. There are
frequent references to fellow officers, often by name. He is
asked, for example, "What kind of life or death situation have
you been in." (McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, p.33; Tape No. 6B,
p.1) or "so what makes you want to be a police officer." (McKinny
Transcript No. 6-2, p.10; Tape No.6A, p.12)
The final interview was conducted on July 28, 1994, after Fuhrman
had testified as a witness at the Preliminary Hearing in this
case. In it, he makes several references to his role as a
witness.
B. Racial Animosity and Use of Racial Epithets
During cross examination of Detective Fuhrman on March 15, 1995,
the following testimony was elicited:
(R.T. 18898-99)
Q. By Mr. Bailey: Do you use the word "nigger" in describing
people.
Ms. Clark: Same Objection.
The Court: Presently?
Mr. Bailey: Yes.
The Court: Overruled.
The Witness: No, sir.
Q. By Mr. Bailey: Have you ever used that word in the past ten
years?
A. Not that I recall, no.
Q. You mean if you called someone a nigger you have forgotten it?
A. I'm not sure I can answer that question the way you phrased
it, sir.
Q. You have a difficulty understanding the question?
A. Yes.
Q. I will rephrase it. I want you to assume that perhaps at some
time since 1985 or 1985, you addressed a member of the African
American race as a nigger. Is it possible that you have forgotten
that act on your part?
A. No, it is not possible.
Q. Are you therefore saying that you have not use that word in
the past ten years, Detective Fuhrman?
A. Yes, that is what I'm saying.
Q. And you say under oath that you have not addressed any black
person as a nigger or spoken about black people as niggers in the
past ten years, Detective Fuhrman?
A. That's what I'm saying, sir.
Q. So that anyone who comes to this court and quotes you as using
that word in dealing with African Americans would be a liar,
would they not, Detective Fuhrman?
A. Yes, they would.
Q. All of them, correct?
A. All of them.
The "Fuhrman Tapes" contain forty examples of the use of the term
"nigger" to refer to black persons in a racially disparaging
context. These references were not casual slips of the tongue,
but a consistent pattern that recurs throughout the transcripts.
In only one case - item no 12 - was Fuhrman assuming the role of
a fictional character when the word "nigger" was used.
1. ( . . . speaking of changes in composition of L.A.P.D.).
"That we've got females . . . and dumb niggers, and all your
Mexicans that can't even write the name of the car they drive."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p.11.)
2. ( . . . speaking of the physical risks to officers).
"If I'm wrestling around with some ___ nigger, and he gets me in
my back, and he gets his hands on my gun. It's over."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 12)
3. ( . . . describing arrest of a suspect).
"She was afraid. He was a big nigger, and she was afraid."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 20)
4. (. . . explaining arrest of a suspect in Westwood).
"He was a nigger. He didn't belong. Two questions. And you are
going: Where do you live? 22nd and Western. Where were you going?
Well, I'm going to Fatburger. Where's Fatburger. He didn't know
where Fatburger was? Get in the car."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p.33)
5. (. . . commenting on L.A. P. D. politics).
"Commander Hickman, was a dickhead. He should be shot. He did
that for one thing. He wants to be chief, so he wants the city
council, and the police commissioner, and all these niggers in
L.A. City government and all of 'em should be lined up against a
wall and fuckin' shot."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p.41)
6. (. . . discussing American aid to drought victims in
Ethiopia).
"You know these people here, we got all this money going to
Ethiopia for what. To feed a bunch of dumb niggers that their own
government won't even feed."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 44)
7 & 8 (. . . discussing where he grew up in the state of
Washington).
"People there don't want niggers in their town. People there
don't want Mexicans in their town. They don't want anybody but
good people in their town, and anyway you can do to get them out
of there that's fine with them. We have no niggers where I grew
up."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p.45)
9. ( . . . speaking of women as training officers).
"When I came on the job all my training officers were big guys
and knowledgeable, some nigger'd get in their face, they just
spin 'em around, choke 'em out until they dropped."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1., p. 47)
10. (. . . discussing use of chokehold by L.A.P.D.).
"No, we have to eliminate a choke hold because a bunch of niggers
down in the south end of L.A. said this is bad."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1., p. 49)
11. (. . . discussing police use of term "Bubba").
"You know, policemen also use "Bubba" a lot, 'cause it's a slam
term, because niggers you know they call each other Bubba. They
go, hey Bubba, what's happening, like that."
(Tape No. 10, p. 6; McKinny Transcript No. 2, pp. 3-4)
12. (. . . suggesting how a fictional character would respond to
a question whether officers would respond to a question whether
officers need probable cause to stop and search suspects).
"Q. Why are you even talking to them?
A. Nigger. Stop them. See who they are.
Q. You don't have any probable cause? You just want to talk to
them?
A. . . . probable cause. You're God.
(Tape No. 1. p.26; McKinny Transcript No. 2, p.14)
13. (. . . discussing where Black Muslims live).
"Q. Why do they live in that area?
A. That's where niggers live."
(Tape No. 1, p.28; McKinny Transcript No. 2, p.15)
14. (. .. discussing the exhilaration of winning).
"I mean, that's just the way you feel, you know. You've got 200
Niggers that are trying to take you prisoner."
(Tape No. 1, p.1; McKinny Transcript No. 2, p.19)
15. ( . . . suggesting police reaction to resistant suspect).
"She's a policeman in this city, and don't you ever fight or fuck
around with policemen. You'll do what you're told, you understand
Nigger."
(Tape No. 1, p.10; McKinny Transcript No.2; p. 21)
16. (. . . discussing woman officer learning fencing).
"You just go out and what are gonna do with some Nigger with a
knife? Go `on guard?' I mean that's bullshit."
(Tape No. 4, p.2; McKinny Transcript No. 4, p.2)
17. ( . . . describing practicing martial arts kicks).
"I used to go to work and practice movements. Niggers. They're
easy. I used to practice my kicks.
(Tape No. 4, p.9; McKinny Transcript No.4, p.12)
18. (. . . discussing lack of women football players).
"Don't they think they are physically capable? They can arm
wrestle 6'7" Niggers."
(Tape No. 4, p.24; McKinny Transcript No. 4, p.30)
19. & 20. (. . . discussing use of chokehold by L.A.P.D.)
"We stopped the choke because a bunch of Niggers have a bunch of
these organizations in the south end, and because all Niggers are
choked out and killed -- twelve in ten years. Really is
extraordinary, isn't it?"
(Tape No.4 pp.28-29; McKinny Transcript No. 4,p. 35)
21-24. ( . . . directing Laura Hart to Wilshire Division).
"Go to Wilshire division. Wilshire division is all niggers. All
Niggers, Nigger training officers, niggers . . . with three years
on the job. Think of that 3 plus 1."
(Tape No.5, p.11; McKinny Transcript No.5, p.9)
25. ( . . . describing his partner Tom).
"He grew up in school with all blacks, and every time a nigger
looked at him, he'd jump them cause he figured they were going to
jump on him, so he might as well start the fight right now and
get it over with."
(Tape No. 5, p.12; McKinny Transcript No. 5, p.10)
26. (. . . describing the "last white strongholds".)
"Westwood is gone, the niggers have discovered it. When they
start moving into Redondo and Torrance. Torrance is considered
the last white middle class society."
(Tape No. 5, p.17; McKinny Transcript No. 5, pp. 13-14)
27. (. . . discussing female police officers.)
"They don't do anything; they don't go out there and initiate a
contact with some 6'5" nigger that's been in prison for 7 years
pumping weights."
(Tape No. 6A, p.34: McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, p.11)
28. ( . . . addressing Diaz).
"Fuhrman: Oh, how many people have you killed, dear?
Diaz: Give me the opportunity and I would.
Fuhrman: I didn't ask you that. You don't even know what it is
like.
Diaz: You haven't given me the opportunity yet.
Fuhrman: Yea, you're talking shit, you sound like a nigger
talking shit."
(Tape No. 6A, p.43; McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, p.23)
29. (. . . describing working the Mardi Gras.)
"They have a bunch of niggers up there, two guys, they're like
5'6", they got punched right in the face."
(Tape No. 7A, p. 15)
30. (. . . discussing firearms.)
"There is going to be a massacre in the future in [sic] they know
that. There is the Rolling 60's, nigger group they went into a
sporting good store and stole 50 Uzis, 3,000 rounds."
(Tape No. 7A, p.17.)
31. (. . . describing need for quick pursuit.)
"These niggers, they run like rabbits, . . . some policemen just
sit there and they look, you have to tell them what to do."
(Tape No. 7A, p.20)
32. ( . . . describing reaction of rape victim to female
officer).
"What if I've just been raped by two buck niggers, and a female
shows up?"
(Tape No. 7A, p.25; McKinny Transcript No. 7, p.24).
33. (. . . commenting on the kind of police misconduct
investigated by Internal Affairs.)
"Now, it's funny because guys in Internal Affairs go, `Mark, you
can do just about anything. Get in a bar fight. We'd love to
investigate just some `good 'ol boy' beating up a nigger in a
bar.'"
(McKinny Transcript No. 9. p.1)
34. (. . . describing boredom of working in the Valley).
"It's pretty clear-cut who the assholes are. You go to Pacoima,
you got bikers and niggers."
(McKinny Transcript No. 9, p.4)
35. (. . . discussing grounds to stop automobiles)
"Nigger drivin' a Porsche that doesn't look like he's got a $300
suit on, you always stop him."
(McKinny Transcript, No. 9, p.11.)
36. (. . . describing thought-process of police reactions).
"How do you intellectualize when you punch the hell out of a
nigger? He either deserves it or he doesn't."
(McKinny Transcript No. 9, p.11)
37. ( . . . describing officers who work narcotics).
"I mean narcotics isn't full of niggers and Mexicans. They're
full of white guys that wear cowboy boots."
(McKinny Transcript No. 9, p.12)
38. ( . . . describing the "77th lie detector test.")
"Why don't you give them the 77th lie detector test? You know and
a bunch of guys will laugh -- old timers, you know. And then the
kid will ask his partner `What's that?' You choke him out until
he tells you the truth. You know it is kind of funny, but a lot
of policemen will get a kick out of it. Anyway so you are in the
shadows like that, now your -- when you are talking to somebody
it is not like you are really listening into their words because
you will key on what is the truth and what isn't. First thing,
anything out of a nigger's mouth for the first five or six
sentences is a fucking lie. That is just right out. There has got
to be a reason why he is going to tell you the truth."
(Tape No. 10; pp. 21-22)
39. ( . . . describing taking a suspect "to the baseball
diamond.")
"We basically get impatient with him being so fucking stupid.
Which I thought he was. So I just handcuffed him and went the
scenic route to the station. We searched him again and found the
gun. Went over to the baseball diamond and talked to him. When I
left, Dana goes, `No blood Mark.' `No problem, not even any
marks, Dana.' Just body shots. Did you ever try to find a bruise
on a Nigger. It is pretty tough, huh?
(Tape No. 10, p.25.)
40. (. . . explaining his opposition to building a new police
station in the 77th precinct.)
"Leave that old station. Man, it has the smell of Niggers that
have been beaten and killed in there for years."
(Tape No. 10, p. 26.)
C. Police Misconduct
Detective Mark Fuhrman testified to being the first officer to
observe a spot of blood on the defendant's Bronco automobile, as
well as the glove allegedly found behind defendant's Rockingham
residence, although these observations occurred after he had been
removed as a Detective in charge of this investigation. Cross
examination focused on the possibility that detective Fuhrman had
moved or planted any evidence in this case, which he flatly
denied. In an in limine ruling, the court held he could be
questioned about allegations in a letter sent to defense counsel
by Kathleen Bell, that Officer Fuhrman said:
"When he sees a "nigger" (as he called it) driving with a white
woman, he would pull them over. I asked would he if he didn't
have a reason, and he said that he would find one."
In his testimony at trial, Detective Fuhrman testified as
follows:
"Q. In 1985 or '86, were you a police officer in Westwood?
A: I worked the foot beat, yes, in Westwood, yes."
(R.T. 18786)
"Q: Did you say while in the recruiting station at any time
during those years that when you see a nigger driving with a
white woman, you pull them over?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall anyone asking you if you didn't have a reason to
pull them over, what would you do?
A: I don't recall anybody ever asking me that question, sir.
Q: Did you ever make a statement that if you needed a reason, you
would find one?
A: No."
(R.T. 18787)
"Q: Would you remember Detective Fuhrman, if you had used the
language that we have just reviewed?
A: Yes.
Q: That is important enough language to you that it would impress
itself on your memory as did the meeting with the Simpson's in
'85, is that correct?
A: Yes, sir."
(R.T.18789)
Statements made by detective Fuhrman at approximately the same
times as the alleged Kathleen Bell incident about his willingness
to lie, to plant evidence, to frame innocent persons and to cover
up police misconduct would be directly relevant to his
credibility.
The "Fuhrman Tapes" contain eighteen examples of Detective
Fuhrman admitting participation in police misconduct, or offering
approving comments with respect to misconduct. This misconduct
includes illegal use of deadly force, beating suspects to extract
confessions, planting evidence, framing innocent persons, and
lying or covering up misconduct by others.
1. ( . . . describing reaction to insults).
"Q. What do you do if someone calls you a mother fucker, what do
you do?
A. (Laughs). Are there witnesses or are there not. Let's set the
stage.
Q. O.K. If there a re witnesses, what do you do? Say you're in
front of the show, telling people in line to move out of the
street, and it's kind of a minor situation. Somebody in line
calls you a mother fucker, or a pig --
A. (Flatly) Goes to jail.
Q. He goes to jail.
A. Interfering. He was interfering with my duties. 148 of the
Penal Code.
Q. So you immediately take him to jail?
A. Of course, he's so shocked, that he immediately won't do, so
he immediately gets thrown on the ground, so he immediately gets
stuck. I don't take anything in that uniform that I wouldn't take
out of that uniform."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 22)
2. ( . . . describing arrest for outstanding traffic warrant).
"Well, I'm sure he will have, because if he's got that attitude,
he's probably gotten several tickets from policemen, and he
hasn't taken care of them. He's going to go to the station,
because he won't have any identification because when he gives me
his driver's license, I'll just rip the fucker up.
Q. Have you done that before?
A. (Nods.)."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 23.)
3. ( . . . describing arrest of a narcotics user).
"So if that's considered falsifying a report, and if some hype,
you know says, Ah, you know whatever, I shot two days ago, and
you find a mark that looks like three days ago, pick the scab,
squeeze it, looks like serum's coming out, as if it were hours
old. It's a hard find. You can't just find the mark, cause he's
down. His eyes don't lie. That's not falsifying a report. That's
putting a criminal in jail. That's being a policeman."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 25)
4. ( . . . describing use of deadly force in arrests).
"Where would this country be if every time a sheriff went out
with a posse to find somebody who just robbed and killed a bunch
of people, he stopped and talked to them first. To make sure they
had guns. Tried to take them -- they shot them in the back. We
still should be shooting people in the back. It's just that
you've got to hire people who are capable of doing it. and
capable of figuring out who the bad guys are."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, p. 25)
5. ( . . . explaining reasons he shoots to kill, regardless of
department policy).
"And I don't want them to think I'm a coward. So sometimes
that'll stimulate me to do what I have to do, and plus I like it
when people are trying to hurt me, because there is something
that is on the line, something that's important in my life, and I
like working under pressure. And it's good. It feels good because
I accomplish something. And you look around and say, most of
these pukes couldn't do it. It's control, power, whatever you
want to call it. But it's something that's inherent in only some
people. I listen to liberals talk, and I can't believe that
someone who is educated, or even just opens their eyes for one
day can think what they think.
Q. What are some of the things that really annoy you when you
hear liberals talk?
A. Do you people -- don't you shoot to wound'em? No, we shoot to
kill'em. Now the department says we shoot to stop, not kill which
is horseshit. The only way you can stop somebody is to kill the
son of a bitch. And what's the big deal? If you've got a reason
to shoot somebody, you've got a reason to kill him."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, pp. 27-28)
6. ( . . . describing the revenge for killing policemen).
"Recidivism is unbelievable. There's a guy walking around right
now who has killed two policemen, eyewitnesses[sic] by their
partners who were wounded. So he's shot 4 policemen. He hacked a
girl to death with a machete. So that's 5 people. He did 8 years
in prison. He's walking around. He goes to U.C.L.A.
Q. What's he doing at U.C.L.A.?
A. Taking some courses? Now you want me to tell you why he's
alive?
Q. Because we didn't kill him.
A. No, if I would have arrested the son of a bitch I would have
killed him. If I ever see the son of a bitch and we're alone, I
would kill him.
Q. How can you get away with that.
A. If there's nobody except him and me, dead men tell no tales.
See, he killed two policemen. I have an obligation if I ever have
the opportunity, I should kill him. And that's all there is to
it.
Q. Say you were working with a partner who saw you do that.
A. Can't do that. You gotta have a partner that's like your
brother."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, pp. 30-31.)
7. ( . . . describing the manufacturing of probable cause for
arrest).
Q. So under what did you arrest him?
A. I didn't arrest him under anything, just took him to the
station, ran him for prints, gave them to the detectives to
compare with what they've got in the area. I'll probably arrest a
criminal that way.
Q. So you're allowed to just pick somebody up that you think
doesn't belong in an area and arrest him?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, I mean, you did, so --
A. I don't know. I don't know what the Supreme Court or the
Superior Court says, and I don't really give a shit . . . if I
was pushed into saying why I did it, I'd say suspicion of
burglary. I'd be able to correlate exactly what I said into a
reasonable cause for arrest."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, pp. 33-34)
8. ( . . . describing the difference between field interrogation
techniques taught in the academy and those actually utilized).
"See if you did the things that they teach you in the academy,
you'd never get a fucking thing done. I'll split up the people,
that's fine. You split up two suspects and you say, where you
from? What's his name? That's great, but if he doesn't tell you,
you give him a shot in the stomach with your stick and say:
Listen boy, I'm talking to you, and you better give me some
attention or I'm gonna fucking drop you like a bad habit. Now can
you tell me a female you see doing that?
Q. No.
A. Those are field interrogation techniques for assholes.
Q. Well, where did you learn those field interrogation
techniques, if you didn't learn them in the academy?
A. Well, probably about 8 years old. You learn that when
somebody pushes, if you can't beat 'em face on, you sneak up
behind 'em and just grab 'em by the hair and keep punchin' em'
until they go down. I learned that a long time ago, and when I
went into the service it's the same thing. I only go so far, and
they teach you, you don't have to go. No, you don't have to let
anybody push you. Somebody touches you, you just knock 'em down.
I mean, that's all there is to it. You get in the academy, and I
thought the police academy was fun. I got to work out on duty,
get to wrestle, get to eat up here, nice pine trees, restaurant."
(McKinny Transcript No. 1, pp. 36-37)
9. ( . . . Describing how police officers cover up the unlawful
use of force).
But that gives a lot of credibility, when you've got a real heavy
investigation. We had one. I had 66 allegations of brutality:
AEW, under color of authority, assault and battery under color
authority. Torture, all kinds of stuff. Two guys, well, there was
four guys. Two of my buddies were shot and ambushed, policemen.
Both alive and I was first unit on the scene. Four suspects ran
into a 2nd story in a apartment projects -- apartment. We kicked
the door done. We grabbed a girl that lived there, one of their
girlfriends. Grabbed her by the hair and stuck a gun to her head,
and used her as a barricade. Walked up and told them: `I've got
this girl, I'll blow her fucking brains out, if you come out with
a gun.' Held her like this -- threw the bitch down the stairs --
deadbolted the door -- Let's play, boys.
Q. Can we use that in the story?
A. It hasn't been 7 years. Statute of limitations. I have 300
and something pages internal affairs investigation just on that
one incident. I got several other ones. I must have about 3000 or
4000 pages of internal affairs investigations out there. Anyway,
we basically tortured them. There was 4 policemen, 4 guys. We
broke 'em. Numerous bones in each one of them. their faces were
just mush. They had pictures on the walls, there was blood all
the way to the ceiling with finger marks like they were trying to
crawl out of the room. They showed us pictures of the room. It
was unbelievable, there was blood everywhere. All the wall, all
the furniture, all the floor. It was just everywhere. These guys,
they had to shave so much hair off, one guy they shaved it all
off. Like 70 stitches in his head. You know, knees, cracked, oh
it was just -- We had 'em begging that they'd never be gang
members again, begging us. So with 66 allegations. I had a
demonstration in front of Hollenbeck station chanting my name.
Captain had to take them all into roll call, and that's where the
internal affairs investigation started. It lasted 18 months. I
was on a photo lineup, suspect lineup. I was picked out by 12
people. So I was pretty proud of that. I was the last one
interviewed. The prime suspect is always the last one
interviewed. They didn't get any of our unit - 38 guys - they
didn't get one day. The custodian -- the jailer of the Sheriff's
Department got 5 days, since he beat one of the guys at the very
end . . . Boy, you know, and started . . .
Immediately after we beat those guys, we went downstairs to the
garden hose in the back of the place. We washed our hands. We had
blood all over our legs, everything. With a dark blue uniform,
you know, and in the dark, you can't see it. But when you get in
the light and it looks like somebody took red paint and painted
it all over you. We had to clean our badges off with water, there
was blood all over 'em. Our face [sic] had blood on them. We had
to clean all that. We checked each other, then we went our, we
were directing traffic. And the chiefs and everything were coming
down because two officers were shot, `Where are the suspects?' `I
think some of these officers over here got them,' they took them
to the station. Somehow nobody knows who arrested them. We
handcuffed them and threw them down two flights of stairs, you
know. That's how they came. That's where a lot of people saw, you
know.
`Look out! Here comes one. O my God, look out, he's falling! I
mean you don't shoot a policeman. That's all there is to it.
But anyway, the point is -- Well, they know I did it. They know
damn well I did it. There's nothing they could do, but I could.
Most of those guys worked the 77th together. We were tight. I
mean, we could have murdered people and got away with it. We were
tight. We all knew what to say. We didn't have to call each other
at home, and say, `Okay.' We all knew what to say.
Most real good policemen understand, that they would love to take
certain people, and just take them to the alley and blow their
brains out.
Q. Certain people.
A. All gang members for one. All dope dealers for two. Pimps,
three. There's probably your three most worthless types of people
in a large city."
(Tapes No. 2, pp. 3-6; McKinny Transcript No. 2, pp. 32-35)
10. ( . . . describing necessity for police officers to be
willing to lie).
"Well, I really love being a policemen [sic] when I can be a
policemen [sic]. It's like my partner now. He's so hung up with
the rules and stuff. I get pissed sometimes and go, `You just
don't fucking even understand. This job is not rules. This is a
feeling. Fuck the rules, we'll make them up later . . . He's a
college graduate, a Catholic college. He was going to be a
fucking priest. He's got more morals than he's got hairs on his
head. He doesn't know what to do about it.
Q. What do you mean he's got more morals?
A. He doesn't know how to be a policeman. (whispers) `I can't
lie' . . . Oh, you make me fucking sick to my guts. You know, you
do what you have to do to put these fucking assholes in jail. If
you don't, you fucking get out of the fucking game. He just wants
to be one of the boys. Doesn't want to play -- pay the dues.
Q. So, how does he deal with it?
A. He doesn't lie. Well, I know for a fact in this Internal
Affairs investigation, he has a 10-day suspension. He'll roll.
Q. I'm sorry. I don't understand.
A. He'll drop the dime on me, squeal, tell the truth. He won't
take anytime . . .
Q. You serious?
A. Not a policeman at heart. He's considered on the good guys.
Q. He won't take any suspension at all?
A. He'll say . . . he didn't realize. He goes: `I got a wife
and kid to think of.' I says, `Fuck you. Don't tell me because
you've got a wife and kid . . . You're either my partner all the
way or get the fuck out of this car. We die for each other. We
live for each other. That's how it is in the car. You lie for me,
up to six-month suspension. Don't ever get fired for me. Don't
get indicted for me. But you'll take six months for me cause I'll
take it for you. If you don't get the fuck out of here . . . It
shouldn't have to be said."
(Tape No. 3 pp. 3-4; McKinny Transcript No. 3, pp. 3-4)
11. ( . . . suggesting revenge against those who opposed used
[sic] of police chokeholds).
Q. See, I still don't understand who promulgated or perpetrated
it.
A. There was a black coalition in the south against police then.
There is the ACLU, the NAACP . . . . The ACLU should be bombed,
and everybody should be killed in it. They do no good. They are
the cancer of society."
(Tape No. 4 pp. 31; McKinny Transcript No. 4, p. 37)
12. ( . . . describing police officer partner punishing suspect
he can't arrest by destroying property).
"He's the kind of guy that get's some jerk off like some Mexican,
you know, riding a skateboard from some patty cake, but you can't
really arrest him for anything. So while I'm talking to the kid,
Tom's putting the skateboard underneath the tire of the police
car. `Okay, let's go.' Something goes bump. `What was that?'
`Don't worry about it.'"
(Tape No. 5 pp. 12-13; McKinny Transcript No. 5, p. 10)
13. ( . . . describing police officer partner tearing up
driver's licenses.)
"He's constantly tearing up driver's licenses.
Q. You do that, he probably got that from you.'
A. No, he has his own style, he goes, `Give me your driver's
license. (Motions - Rips it up.) `You're a fucking jerk, you get
out of here. Next time you're driving without a license, it's my
car.'
Q. If officers tear up your driver's license, what can that
person do?
A. Staffling.
Q. Staffling?
A. You stole something, although it's not that person's
property. It's property of motor vehicles.
Q. you can just deny it, can't you?
A. So long as you don't have any witnesses . . . Then you've got
other officers that are kind of part of the group. They only want
to go so far, and they are -- not chicken up to the supervisors
but -- no problem, real helpful types that make you sick to your
stomach almost, but they're still decent guys and you can count
on them.
Q. Real helpful.
A. They want to be part of the group, but they're climbing, they
want to go somewhere. And most of us are going no where. And most
of us are going nowhere."
(Tape No. 5 p. 13; McKinny Transcript No. 5, pp. 10-11)
14. ( . . . describing providing testimony for events he did not
witness).
"I've been on several calls in West L.A., and I'm the third or
fourth car, and I end up handling the whole situation. You have a
bunch a munchkins out in front with their guns. What are you
doing? The call is on the other side of the house. You know, the
guy broke in here, everybody is waiting where he broke in, like
he'll go out the door, you know. I mean, it's ridiculous, you
know, and they're sitting there So, I just go in, kick the door,
the guy's going out the garage, I beat the shit out of him. He's
just a bloody mess, handcuffed him, there. I'm leaving. Thank
you. (In a high-pitched female voice.) This is embarrassing. Then
you go to court, and I'm the only one who knows how to testify.
You have five officers on the case and I'm the only one there
that knows how to testify. The DA goes, `ya, but you were the
fourth car, but would you testify?' `Ya, but did you see -- I saw
it. Don't worry about it, ya. I say him do that, ya, ya. Okay,
good-bye. Why do I have to do everything. That's what it is
coming down to. I have to fight the guy; I have to catch the guy;
I have to keep the guys mouth shut at the station because they're
not going to do it for a female. I can just walk by and go: shut
up or I'm going to kick your face in."
(Tape No. 6A pp. 3-4; McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, p. 44)
15. ( . . . describing use of coercive interrogation
techniques).
"When I was working gang, we used to get a murder. And you'd know
which gang did it, but they wouldn't talk. So, I would go pick up
three or four gang members and bring them to the station, take
one in the basement and beat the dogshit out of him, without even
asking him a question. Bring him up and sit him down. He's
bleeding, face is all puffed up, got hurt. Next guy, take him
downstairs. `O.K., who shot at him?' That's how you get
information. what is this patty cake, patty cake shit psychology.
Well, we have to teach our officers some Spanish. I work Mexican
gangs, and I don't know how to speak Spanish. How do they do
that. When they speak Spanish, no comprende, slap them upside the
head. Speak English! I'm an English teacher, just like that.
That's police work. That's being able to pick out the people.
That type of treatment is necessary."
(Tape No. 6A p. 4; McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, pp. 44-45)
16. ( . . . describing selective use of baton in certain areas
of the city).
"You have to be a switch hitter. You have to be able to look at
your area and at how you talk to people. Look at how deal with
things and what you can and can't do even with a criminal. You
can go out in Bel Air, and somebody gives you a hard time in
broad daylight, and slap them. Damn it, I want to know what's
going on! You just don't do that. I mean, it's obvious. But when
you're down south end, Watts, the metropolitan area, when you're
on skid row, you use your stick more than your mouth. You don't
care. Don't try to tell people to go here, go there. You just use
your stick, they'll move. They see no problem with that. They're
where they are not supposed to be.
Q. The one problem that I see, that a lot of criminals are just
as big as you, and then you get your officers that are 5'7", 150
lbs. The criminal is going to say exactly what you're saying to
them . . .
A. Absolutely . . . .
We were in the village last weekend. And I saw him the whole
night, getting in other officers' faces -- "What midget officers
you've got. I went up to him and said: `Move, move. I'm clearing
this street out.' He said, `No'. I just boom, stick right in the
gut.
`You hit me with that stick --
`You ain't gonna do anything boy. You wanna do something, let's
go.' I put my stick away, let's go! You know, all his buddies
there -- I said `let's go, you're the same size I am.' You want
to go? You want to get down. Let's get down.' They back off, but
he had to get jabbed in the ribs because he's been buffaloing so
many policemen for so long. All of a sudden he was in shock.
(Tape No. 6A, pp. 4-5; McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, pp. 45-46)
17. ( . . . describing beating of suspects).
"Q. What kind of life or death situations have you been in?
A. Fights, shootings. Two of my partners were ambushed.
Q. How did you get out of them?
A. Well, the two guys were ambushed. We came up after that, and
all the suspects ran. Both officers were down, and my partner
checked the officers. They were both still alive. We called an
ambulance. I ran after the suspects. They went into the house. My
partner got back to me. We went in. We were just pissed. We were
not going to wait for SWAT. Grabbed the girl, put a gun to her
head. Used her for a shield. Walked up. They wanted to give up.
Locked the door. They didn't give up. I beat the hell out of the
last. One died. Four of them. It's four on two, that's fair play.
But they -- we could have found a gun.
Q. Did you have a gun on you?
A. Oh yeah.
(Tape No. 6B, p. 1; McKinny Transcript No. 6-1, pp. 33-34)
18. ( . . . describing basis for stopping an automobile).
"We all work in the same 10 square blocks every day. So, if I see
a car that isn't usually there, it's either an asshole that
doesn't belong there with his car, or an asshole that doesn't
belong there with a car that isn't his. Either way, I'm going to
stop it and find out what's going on."
(McKinny Transcript No. 9, p. 11)
D. Attitude As a Witness
During his trial testimony, Detective Fuhrman testified as
follows:
"Q. By Mr. Bailey: Did you believe that you would be an
essential witness if you were the first to find an important
piece of evidence?
A: Well, I couldn't make that determination at that time, sir. I
didn't even know what the implication of the glove was."
(R.T. 18625)
Detective Fuhrman admitted that although an unusual weekend
session in a grand jury room was scheduled to prepare him for
cross-examination, the session "was very casual. I was eating a
submarine sandwich at the same time the discussions were going
on."
(R.T. 18767).
The "Fuhrman Tapes" contain two references to Detective Fuhrman's
role as a key witness in this case. These statements were made on
July 28, 1994, after his testimony at the Preliminary Hearing.
1. ( . . . explaining police department reaction to the
suggestion he planted the glove).
Q. You're them.
A. I'm the key witness in the biggest case of the century. And,
if I go down, they lose the case. The glove is everything.
Without the glove -- bye, bye.
(Tape No. 12, p. 7; McKinny Transcript No. 12, p. 22)
2. "Well, the funny thing about it is just like the attorney
said, `For the rest of your life, this is you: you're bloody
glove Fuhrman, that's it . . . He says you might as well make it
pay off, if you don't make it pay off, all you're doing is going
through all this heartache for nothing. Go for Shapiro, he's an
asshole."
(Tape No. 12, p. 12; McKinny Transcript No. 12, p. 22)
