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From: [email protected] (Myra Dinnerstein)
Subject: TRANSCRIPT - 8/25/95
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 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, AUGUST 25, 1995
                    9:20 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103            HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
           (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)

 (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE
M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

           (PAGES 42970 THROUGH 42977,
            VOLUME 212-A, TRANSCRIBED AND
            SEALED UNDER SEPARATE COVER.)

           (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
            HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
            PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

    THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
           MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH
HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. BLASIER AND MR.
SCHECK, PEOPLE REPRESENTED BY MR. GOLDBERG AND MR. DARDEN.
           THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THE ABSENCE OF MISS CLARK.
           MR. DARDEN, I UNDERSTAND THAT MISS CLARK IS ILL
TODAY.
     MR. DARDEN:  SHE IS JUST NOT AVAILABLE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT YOU WISH TO PROCEED IN HER
ABSENCE AND REQUEST THAT I ADVISE THE JURY THAT SHE IS NOT
AVAILABLE TODAY, BUT THE PROSECUTION CHOOSES TO GO FORWARD.
     MR. DARDEN:  YES, PLEASE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           ALL RIGHT.  THE RECORD SHOULD ALSO REFLECT THAT WE
HAVE HAD AN IN CHAMBERS CONFERENCE REGARDING AN ITEM IN THE
NEWSPAPER WHICH SLIPPED BY OUR CENSORS, AND WE'VE INTERVIEWED THE
JURORS WHO HAD ACCESS TO THAT, AND I'VE REQUESTED COUNSEL TO
CONFER AND SEE IF THERE'S ANY FURTHER REQUEST FOR ANY INQUIRY.
     MR. SHAPIRO:  THERE IS NOT, THANK YOU.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           MR. DARDEN.
     MR. DARDEN:  NO.  WE'RE SATISFIED, YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           AND I'M REFERRING TO THE MIKE PETERS' CARTOON IN THE
AUGUST 23RD EDITION OF THE LOS ANGELES TIMES.
           ALL RIGHT.
           MR. COCHRAN, I TAKE IT YOU HAVE NO PERSONAL OBJECTION
TO THAT?
     MR. COCHRAN:  NO, YOUR HONOR.  I'LL BE REPRESENTING THAT
INDIVIDUAL SOON.  I'M ONLY KIDDING.  NO, I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO
THE RULING.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           SINCE YOU WERE THE PERSON INVOLVED.
     MR. COCHRAN:  YES.  NO PROBLEM.  IT'S JUST A JOKE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           IF I WERE YOU, I WOULD HAVE FOUND IT BOTH HUMOROUS
AND COMPLIMENTARY.
     MR. COCHRAN:  YOUR HONOR BROUGHT IT TO MY ATTENTION.  I
HADN'T SEEN IT.  I APPRECIATE IT.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF THE TIMES I READ THESE DAYS.
           MR. BLASIER.
           ALL RIGHT.
           WE NEED TO GO ON TO THE SWATCH DRYING EXPERIMENT
ARGUMENT.
           DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE WE LAUNCH INTO THAT?
     MR. BLASIER:  YES, VERY BRIEFLY.
           I FILED A BRIEF THIS MORNING WITH RESPECT TO THE
DISCOVERY VIOLATION/SANCTION.
     THE COURT:  I WOULDN'T GO -- I WOULD NOT CALL THAT A BRIEF.
I WOULD CALL THAT A TOME.
     MR. BLASIER:  WELL, MOST OF IT IS ATTACHMENTS. IT'S JUST A
COPY OF THE NOTES THAT SUPPOSEDLY DESCRIBED --
     THE COURT:  THE FACT THAT IT'S AN INCH AND A HALF THICK --
     MR. BLASIER:  WELL, HERE'S WHAT I'M SUGGESTING.  THE BRIEF
IS ONLY NINE PAGES.
           BUT WHAT I'M SUGGESTING IS, I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THE
PROSECUTION IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO SHOW ANY HARM FROM WHAT TURNS
OUT TO BE 21 PAGES THAT RELATES TO DR. LEE'S TESTIMONY, ALL OF
WHICH WAS CONTAINED IN HIS REPORT.  IF THE COURT IS GOING TO
CONSIDER IMPOSING ANY KIND OF INSTRUCTION OR ANY OTHER SANCTION,
I WOULD ASK THAT YOU REVIEW THAT PRIOR TO DOING IT.
           OTHERWISE, I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU DEFER THIS UNTIL
YOU HAVE MORE TIME.  IT'S NOT WORTH THE TIME QUITE FRANKLY.  BUT
IF YOU'RE GOING TO OPPOSE ANYTHING, I WOULD REQUEST THAT YOU
REVIEW IT.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MAY I RESPOND TO THAT BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR?
     THE COURT:  YES.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, WE PREPARED A LIST YESTERDAY --
ACTUALLY MISS MARTINEZ PREPARED THIS FOR ME -- OF THE ITEMS THAT
DR. LEE TESTIFIED TO AND THE REFERENCES TO THOSE ITEMS IN VARIOUS
REPORTS.  IN OTHER WORDS, IT CORRELATES THE MATERIALS THAT WE
PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED TO THE COURT BY DIVIDING THEM BY SUBJECT
MATTER, AND I'M WONDERING WHETHER THE COURT MIGHT WANT TO TAKE A
LOOK AT THAT AND HAVE A COPY OF THAT DOCUMENT.
     THE COURT:  YES.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THE OTHER THING IS, YOUR HONOR, WE WOULD
LIKE TO TAKE A LOOK AT RESEARCHING THE ISSUE OF MOTIONS TO
RECONSIDER.  I'VE DONE THIS BEFORE AND ARGUED THIS BEFORE BUT NOT
FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, AND THERE ARE PROVISIONS EITHER IN THE
RULES OF COURT OR THE CODE OF CIVIL PROCEDURE DEALING WITH WHEN
IT CAN OR CANNOT BE DONE; AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD DO THAT BEFORE
THE COURT UNDERTAKES THE PROCESS OF READING THIS BRIEF.
     THE COURT:  WELL, MR. GOLDBERG, LET ME TELL YOU FRANKLY
WHAT MY THOUGHT PROCESS IS, AND MAYBE THIS WILL HELP YOU.
           IN FASHIONING ANY SANCTION, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW
WHAT THE NATURE OF THE HARM WAS AND WHAT THE PREJUDICE WAS, WHICH
IS WHY I'VE ASKED YOU TO RESPOND IN A SPECIFIC -- ITEM SPECIFIC
WAY WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR ITEM IN DR. LEE'S NOTES, THE
FACT THAT YOU DID NOT RECEIVE THOSE NOTES UNTIL, YOU KNOW, THE
8TH OF AUGUST OR SO AND THE FACT THAT DR. LEE STARTED HIS
TESTIMONY ON, AS I RECOLLECT, THE 22ND, WHAT IS IT ABOUT THAT
INFORMATION AND THAT 14-DAY PERIOD THAT DIDN'T GIVE YOU
SUFFICIENT TIME TO PREPARE OR WHAT CAME AS A SURPRISE OR, YOU
KNOW, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO; SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, DR. LEE'S
TESTIMONY REGARDING POSSIBLE OTHER FOOTPRINTS -- EXCUSE ME --
SHOEPRINTS -- HAVE TO BE PRECISE IN THESE THINGS -- WHETHER OR
NOT YOU HAD SUFFICIENT OPPORTUNITY TO SEND COPIES OF THESE ITEMS
TO MR. BODZIAK TO CONSULT WITH HIM.
           THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO KNOW.  I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE
NATURE OF THE PREJUDICE IS, AND I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE GOING TO FILE
THAT SOMETIME THIS AFTERNOON.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOU WANT US TO FILE IT SOMETIME THIS
AFTERNOON.
     THE COURT:  NO.  THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT I ASKED YOU TO FILE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOU ASKED US TO FILE -- AS I RECALL FROM
READING THE TRANSCRIPT, YOU DIDN'T GIVE US A TIME DEADLINE.
     THE COURT:  WELL, DR. LEE I ASSUME, FROM OUR PROGRESS IN
THE BOARDS, IS PROBABLY TWO-THIRDS OF THE WAY THROUGH HIS
PRESENTATION.
     MR. SCHECK:  SOMETIME THIS MORNING.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WELL, MR. SCHECK TOLD ME HE IS INTENDING TO
FINISH BY 12:00 O'CLOCK OR MAYBE IT WILL SPILL OVER A LITTLE BIT
TO THE NEXT DAY.
     THE COURT:  SO THE ISSUE IS THEN WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE
ENTITLED TO A DELAY TO PREPARE --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  I UNDERSTAND.  BUT IN TERMS OF DELAY, YOUR
HONOR, JUST SO THE COURT KNOWS, ALTHOUGH THE PEOPLE'S POSITION IS
THAT PERHAPS WE'VE BEEN IRREPARABLY PREJUDICED, NEVERTHELESS FROM
A TACTICAL PERSPECTIVE, WE DO NOT WANT ANY KIND OF AN EXTENSIVE
-- A GAP BETWEEN THE END OF DR. LEE'S TESTIMONY AND THE BEGINNING
OF OUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.  SO AT MOST -- I MEAN, IT IS OUR HOPE
THAT WE CAN GO AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE BEING, AT
THE LATEST, SOMETIME VERY EARLY NEXT WEEK.
           AND NOW I KNOW THAT THE COURT ALSO HAS THIS ISSUE OF
FUHRMAN AND THAT WE HAVE TO WORK AROUND THAT AS WELL.  I WOULD
LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONSULT MORE WITH MISS CLARK ABOUT THIS.
THIS IS A TACTICAL DECISION IN WHICH IN EFFECT, WE MAY DECIDE TO
FOREGO CERTAIN REMEDIES THAT THE COURT WOULD OTHERWISE BELIEVE US
TO BE ENTITLED TO IN TERMS OF A CONTINUANCE.  BUT IF --
     THE COURT:  LET ME JUST ADD ONE OTHER FACTOR FOR YOU TO
CONSIDER.
           MY IMPRESSION FROM OBSERVING THE JURORS -- AND
UNFORTUNATELY, YOU WEREN'T PRIVY TO OUR DISCUSSION WITH ONE OF
THE JURORS THIS MORNING, BUT MY IMPRESSION IS THAT THEY ARE TIRED
AND THEY ARE --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WE UNDERSTAND THAT.
     THE COURT:  -- I WOULDN'T SAY CLOSE TO THE BRINK, BUT
THEY'RE CERTAINLY WITHIN EYESIGHT AND --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WE UNDERSTAND.  AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE
BALANCING WHAT IS THE ADDITIONAL BENEFIT WE GET FROM MORE
PREPARATION AGAINST THE DETRIMENT THAT WOULD BE SUFFERED BY
HAVING MR. LEE'S -- DR. LEE'S TESTIMONY NOT SUBJECT TO
CROSS-EXAMINATION AND ALSO THE JURORS AS WELL.
     THE COURT:  BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
           DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO ANYMORE IN THIS SITUATION
THAN HAVE DR. LEE ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVES THAT GO TO YOUR CASE,
FOR EXAMPLE, HIS APPARENT OPINION THAT THESE ARE BRUNO MAGLI
SHOES AND THAT ALTHOUGH THESE APPEAR TO BE PARALLEL PATTERNS, HE
CAN'T SAY FOR SURE THAT IT'S A SHOEPRINT, IT LOOKS LIKE A
SHOEPRINT, BUT HE CAN'T SAY FOR SURE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, THESE ARE THE TACTICAL ISSUES
THAT ARE GOING IN.  AND WHAT I'M TRYING TO INDICATE TO THE COURT
IS THAT OUR TACTICAL BELIEF AND INDICATION IS, WE WANT THE
CROSS-EXAMINATION TO GO AT SOME TIME VERY, VERY EARLY NEXT WEEK
AND I'D LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS THAT WITH MISS CLARK AND
TELL THE COURT ABOUT OUR ANSWER THIS AFTERNOON.
           BUT IF THAT IS THE CASE, DOES THE COURT WANT ME TO
USE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF MY PREPARATION TIME RIGHT NOW GOING
THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE THE COURT WITH A MORE
DETAILED LIST OF PREJUDICE?  I WOULD PREFER --
     THE COURT:  NO.  IF YOU REPRESENT TO THE COURT THAT IT'S
YOUR POSITION NOW THAT YOU DESIRE TO PROCEED AS QUICKLY AS
POSSIBLE WITHOUT ASKING THE COURT FOR ANY SUBSTANTIAL DELAY, THEN
MY PREFERENCE IS THAT YOU SPEND YOUR TIME DOING THAT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WELL, THAT WOULD BE MY --
     THE COURT:  BECAUSE FRANKLY, IF I WERE IN YOUR SHOES, THIS
-- I WOULD CROSS-EXAMINE DR. LEE FOR ABOUT HALF AN HOUR
ACCENTUATING THE POSITIVES OF MY CASE, DOING IT IN A VERY
PROFESSIONAL, FRIENDLY MANNER WITH HIM GIVEN HIS REPUTATION AND
GET OUT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  THAT'S WHAT I WOULD DO.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THANK YOU.
           AND WE WILL CERTAINLY CONSIDER THE COURT'S COMMENTS
AND I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOUR HONOR IS SAYING, AND MY
REPRESENTATION IS YES, WE HAVE EVERY INTENTION AND EXPECTATION OF
NOT ASKING -- WE ARE NOT GOING TO ASK FOR ANY SIGNIFICANT DELAY
AND WE HAVE EVERY EXPECTATION OF GOING FORWARD AT SOME TIME IN
THE EARLY PART OF NEXT WEEK, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SPEND MY TIME IN
PREPARATION RATHER THAN SANCTIONS AND THEN ADDRESS -- WE WILL BE
ASKING FOR OTHER KINDS OF SANCTIONS IN THE WAY OF JURORS
INSTRUCTIONS AND SO ON, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO CONCENTRATE ON THAT
AFTER --
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  -- DR. LEE'S TESTIMONY IF WE MAY.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THEN LET'S PROCEED TO THE ARGUMENT REGARDING THE SOCK
DRAWING.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, JUST IN THAT REGARD, I KNOW I
SPOKE TO MR. GOLDBERG ABOUT THIS AND HE WAS INDICATING TO ME THAT
HE WAS -- I DON'T WANT TO CHARACTERIZE IT -- BUT MONDAY WAS
LIKELY.
           WHAT WE JUST WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, MAYBE HE CAN TELL US
-- HE INDICATED TO ME HE WANTS TO TALK TO MISS CLARK, AND BY
SOMETIME THIS AFTERNOON, DR. LEE IS GOING BACK TO CONNECTICUT.
HE HAS VERY IMPORTANT BUSINESS AND HE NEEDS TO KNOW FOR PURPOSES
OF SCHEDULING.
           OUR POSITION ABOUT PREJUDICE IS CONTAINED IN THE
PAPERS MR. BLASIER FILED.  BUT WE WOULD JUST LIKE TO KNOW
SOMETHING BY THIS AFTERNOON SO THAT WE CAN MAKE APPROPRIATE
PLANS.
     THE COURT:  WELL, I ASSUME, JUST AS A MATTER OF COURTESY,
MR. GOLDBERG WILL TRY TO GIVE US SOME INFORMATION IN THAT REGARD
BY THIS AFTERNOON.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, ONE POINT, QUICK POINT BEFORE WE
PROCEED TO THE ARGUMENT ON THE SWATCH DRAWING HAVING TO DO WITH
THE NEXT BOARD THAT'S COMING UP.  I JUST HAVE A QUICK QUESTION,
AND THAT IS THIS.
     THE COURT:  WHICH BOARD IS THIS?
     MR. SCHECK:  THIS IS THE ROCKINGHAM BOARD.  YOU HAVE IT IN
FRONT OF YOU.
           THE -- I NOTICED LAST NIGHT --
     THE COURT:  THE ROCKINGHAM BOARD.
           WHICH ONE ARE WE REFERRING TO?
     MR. SCHECK:  IT'S ONLY ONE BOARD.
     THE COURT:  THE ONLY ROCKINGHAM BOARD I HAVE IS HISTORY OF
SOCKS.
     MR. SCHECK:  NO.
     THE COURT:  WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.
           IS THIS THE FRONT FOYER?
     MR. SCHECK:  THAT'S CORRECT.
           IF YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURE ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT, DR.
LEE'S TESTIMONY WILL CONCERN FINDING THREE OTHER SMALL BLOOD
DROPS OR FINDING ADDITIONAL ONES OTHER THAN THE ONES THAT WERE
COLLECTED, AND HE SORT OF OUTLINES THE ONES THAT WERE COLLECTED.
HE WAS NOT GOING TO TESTIFY TO ANY POSITIVE PRESUMPTIVE TESTS
THAT HE PERFORMED AT THAT TIME.  HE WILL BE TESTIFYING TO CERTAIN
NEGATIVE PRESUMPTIVE TESTS.
           I NOTICED IN THE BOTTOM RIGHT-HAND PHOTOGRAPH THAT
WHERE IT DEPICTS THE LOCATION OF THE VARIOUS DROPS, THAT THERE IS
A SWAB ON THE GROUND WHICH LOOKS LIKE OR COULD BE INTERPRETED AS
A PRESUMPTIVE TEST.  THERE'S NO INTENTION TO ELICIT ANY TESTIMONY
ABOUT THAT AND THE RESULTS OF THOSE TESTS. BUT I HAD SOME
CONCERNS THAT IF I DISPLAYED THAT PHOTOGRAPH IN THAT FASHION,
THAT THE PROSECUTION  MIGHT CONTEND THAT WE HAD OPENED THE DOOR.
           AND IF THAT -- I JUST WANTED TO IRON THAT OUT.  IF
THAT'S GOING TO BE THE CASE, THEN WE'LL COVER UP THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
WE HAVE NO INTENTION OF ELICITING IT.
     THE COURT:  THAT THE SWAB IS BEING USED AS A POINTING
DEVICE, SOMETHING THAT JUST SORT OF CAME TO HAND AT THAT LOCATION
RATHER THAN THE --
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
     THE COURT:  -- THE LITTLE RED TAPES AND THINGS?
     MR. SCHECK:  IT SERVES THAT PURPOSE THERE.
     THE COURT:  OKAY.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WELL, THAT'S KIND OF AN AMBIGUOUS RESPONSE
TO THE COURT'S ANSWER BECAUSE YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT THERE IS A
VERY DISTINCT AND UNNATURAL COLOR ON THE SWATCHES, A BLUISH GREEN
TINGE THAT'S CAUSED WITH THE O-TOLIDINE TEST THAT DR. LEE
PERFORMED.  SO IT IS IN SOME WAYS MORE DISTINCTIVE LOOKING THAN
THE PHENOLPHTHALEIN TEST RESULTS WHICH ARE PINK AND COULD
CONCEIVABLY BY A LAYPERSON BE MISTAKEN FOR BLOOD.  THIS CANNOT BE
MISTAKEN FOR BLOOD.  THIS IS CLEARLY A RESULT OF A PRESUMPTIVE
TEST.
           IT WOULD BE OUR POSITION THAT THIS DOES OPEN UP THE
DOOR ON PRESUMPTIVE BLOOD TESTING.  I GUESS COUNSEL COULD
PROBABLY COVER UP THE -- THE LITTLE CARDS WITH THE Q-TIPS ON
THEM.  I MEAN, THAT  WOULD BE ONE WAY OF HANDLING IT.
     THE COURT:  WHAT DID WE -- DR. LEE FOUND OTHER APPARENT
BLOODSTAINS, DID A TEST ON THEM.  WHAT TEST DID HE DO?
     MR. SCHECK:  HE DID AN O-TOLUIDINE PRESUMPTIVE TEST ON
THOSE STAINS.
     THE COURT:  AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT?
     MR. SCHECK:  THEY WERE POSITIVE.  I MEAN, THERE'S -- I
DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EITHER SIDE THAT THERE
WERE I BELIEVE THREE BLOOD DROPS, TWO OR THREE ON ITEM NO. 12,
THREE THAT WERE COLLECTED BY LAPD IN THAT LOCATION AND WERE
CONFIRMED LATER TO BE BLOOD.  IN FACT, THERE WAS AN RFLP TEST
DONE AT CELLMARK ON ITEM NO. 12.  THIS WAS A HIGH CONCENTRATION
OF DNA.  DR. LEE FOUND THREE OTHER SMALL DROPS IN THAT AREA.
           APPLYING ANOTHER RULE THAT WE APPLIED IN THIS WITH
RESPECT TO PRESUMPTIVE TESTS WITH THE PROSECUTION ON THE SOCK, I
SUPPOSE I COULD ARGUE THAT THEY COULD COME IN ON THE GROUNDS THAT
IT'S ALL STAINS IN THE SAME AREA.  BUT WE DON'T CHOOSE TO ELICIT
THAT IT'S A PRESUMPTIVE TEST.
           THE ONLY PRESUMPTIVE TEST THAT THE JURY HAS HEARD
ABOUT I BELIEVE IS THE PHENOLPHTHALEIN TEST WHERE THE SWATCH
TURNS RED, AND I THINK PART OF OUR CONCERN WITH THE OTHER
PICTURES WHERE WE STRUCK THEM IS THAT WHEN YOU SEE A RED SWAB,
YOU MIGHT THINK IT'S BLOOD AND IT'S ONLY A PRESUMPTIVE TEST.  SO
WE  WOULD -- THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS THERE TO JUST SHOW THE LOCATION.
THAT'S ALL HE'S GOING TO TESTIFY TO.  AND THEY ARE BLACK.
           SO THAT'S THE STATE OF THE RECORD.  I JUST -- I DON'T
WANT TO OPEN THE DOOR.  SO IT'S UP TO THE COURT AS TO WHAT YOU
WANT TO DO WITH THAT PICTURE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           WELL, THE COURT'S RULING IS PRETTY CLEAR THOUGH ON
PRESUMPTIVE TESTS THAT ARE NOT BACKED UP BY A CONFIRMATORY TEST
SINCE WE'RE TALKING PRESUMPTIVE TESTS.
     MR. SCHECK:  WE'RE NOT ELICITING THAT TESTIMONY.
     THE COURT:  SO IF YOU WANT TO USE IT, I SUGGEST YOU GO
ALONG WITH, YOU KNOW, DR. LEE CAN TESTIFY THAT HE SAW OTHER
REDDISH STAINS ON THE FLOOR IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THE THREE
TESTED BY THE PEOPLE.  "THESE ARE THEM.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH."
     MR. SCHECK:  REFERRING TO THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
     THE COURT:  REFERRING TO THAT PHOTOGRAPH.  BUT I THINK MR.
GOLDBERG'S SUGGESTION THAT THE CARDS BE COVERED SO THAT THE Q-TIP
ISN'T -- TIP OF THE Q-TIP ISN'T APPARENT IS PROBABLY THE WAY TO
GO IF YOU WANT TO USE THE PHOTOGRAPH.  HE CAN TESTIFY TO THAT
WITHOUT THE PHOTOGRAPH.
     MR. SCHECK:  CAN I JUST LOOK AT THE BOARD AND SEE IF THAT'S
POSSIBLE?
     THE COURT:  SURE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, IT ACTUALLY MIGHT EVEN BE
POSSIBLE FOR COUNSEL TO SIMPLY COVER UP THE BLUISH GREEN TINGE.
THAT WAY, THE JURORS WOULD NOT KNOW WHETHER THESE WERE SIMPLY
BEING USED AS POINTERS AS OPPOSED TO TESTING DEVICE.
     THE COURT:  YOU CAN GET SOME WITE-OUT IF SUCH A THING STILL
EXISTS.
     MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           WE'LL DO THAT.
     THE COURT:  MRS. ROBERTSON, HAVE WE ANY WITE-OUT?
     THE CLERK:  YES.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           LET'S GO ON TO THE ARGUMENT REGARDING SWATCH DRYING.
           MR. GOLDBERG.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
           WE FILED A BRIEF ON THIS AS COUNSEL DID. COUNSEL, IN
ONE OF HIS ARGUMENTS IN PASSING, NOTED THAT THE PEOPLE'S POINTS
AND AUTHORITIES WASN'T FILED UNTIL A FEW WEEKS AFTER WE RECEIVED
DISCOVERY OF THE EXPERIMENT.  I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY
HERE OR THERE BECAUSE WE DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO FILE WRITTEN
POINTS AND AUTHORITIES IN MOVING PAPERS.  THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
WE'VE BEEN DOING IN YOUR HONOR'S COURT IN THIS CASE AND FLOODING
THE COURT WITH PAPERWORK.
     THE COURT:  MR. GOLDBERG, THE ONLY THING I'M INTERESTED IN
IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU THINK THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY
BETWEEN THE SITUATIONS.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OKAY.  THANK YOU.
           THE PEOPLE BELIEVE THERE IS NOT SUBSTANTIAL
SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE TWO SITUATIONS, AND THERE ARE SEVERAL
FACTORS THAT ARE INVOLVED. ACTUALLY MR. SCHECK CHARACTERIZED MOST
OF THEM IN HIS RESPONSES TO THEM IN HIS POINTS AND AUTHORITIES
STARTING ON PAGE 6.
           THE ISSUE AS TO WHETHER THE SWATCH -- THE TEST TUBES
-- FIRST OF ALL, MAYBE I SHOULD START BY EXPLAINING A LITTLE BIT
ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS, OR DOES THE COURT ALREADY KNOW
WHAT THE DEFENSE THEORY IS AND WHY THEY WANT THIS TO COME IN?
     THE COURT:  WELL, I HAVE AN IDEA AS TO WHY THEY WANT TO
BRING IT IN FROM JUST LOOKING AT THE EXHIBITS.  BUT SEEING AS I'M
THE TRIAL JUDGE AND NOT PREPARING THE CASE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE
EVIDENCE IS UNTIL IT'S PRESENTED TO ME AT THE SAME TIME THE JURY
GETS IT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OKAY.
           THE DEFENSE THEORY IS THAT -- WELL, THERE ARE IN FACT
TRANSFER STAINS IN BINDLE NO. 47, WHICH IS THE BINDLE THAT
CONTAINS DENNIS FUNG'S INITIALS AND THE ITEM NUMBER ON IT.
THEREFORE, IT'S AN ORIGINAL BINDLE.
           THIS PARTICULAR BINDLE WAS CREATED ON JUNE THE 13TH
BY MR. FUNG IN THE MORNING SOMETIME AFTER 7:00 O'CLOCK WHEN,
ACCORDING TO THE DOOR ENTRY, HE FIRST ENTERED INTO THE ROOM AND
OBVIOUSLY BEFORE 10:00 O'CLOCK, WHICH IS WHEN MR. YAMAUCHI
SAMPLED THE VARIOUS EVIDENCE FOR THE PURPOSES OF PCR TESTING.
           THE BINDLE WAS THEN EVENTUALLY BOOKED INTO THE
EVIDENCE CONTROL UNIT WHERE IT'S FROZEN, AS THE COURT HAS ALREADY
HEARD IN TESTIMONY, AND THAT BINDLE, THAT PARTICULAR BINDLE
REMAINED IN THE POSSESSION OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT
UNTIL AUGUST THE 12TH OF LAST YEAR WHEN IT WAS MAILED TO THE
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OR IT WAS SENT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
IN AN UNFROZEN CONDITION.  IN OTHER WORDS, IN A CONDITION WHERE
IT COULD THAW OUT AND THEN WAS RECEIVED BY MR. SIMS OF THE
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND HE PHOTOGRAPHED IT APPARENTLY BEFORE HE
DID ANY TESTING ON THE SAME DATE, AND THAT PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS THE
TRANSFER STAINS.  SO WE KNOW THAT THE TRANSFER OCCURRED
CIRCUMSTANTIALLY AT SOME TIME BETWEEN JUNE THE 13TH, WHEN THE
BINDLE WAS CREATED, AND AUGUST THE 12TH, WHEN GARY SIMS
PHOTOGRAPHED IT.
           THE THEORY THAT THE DEFENSE IS PROPOUNDING APPEARS TO
BE TWOFOLD, THAT EITHER THIS IS EVIDENCE OF SWATCHES BEING REWET
EITHER INTENTIONALLY OR ACCIDENTALLY, PROBABLY MORE LIKELY
INTENTIONALLY, AND THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE TRANSFER, OR  THERE WAS
SWATCH SWITCHING, AGAIN, GOING TO THE ISSUE OF PLANTING.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION AS TO 47.  IS THAT ONE OF THE
BUNDY WALKWAY DROPS?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YES, YOUR HONOR.  THAT'S THE FIRST DOT IN
THE BUNDY WALKWAY AND IT WAS ALSO THE SUBJECT OF COLLIN
YAMAUCHI'S PCR TESTING.
           NOW, THE WAY THAT THE SWATCHES WERE DRIED OUT IS,
THEY WERE PUT IN THE CABINET AT THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT
IN THE SMALL TEST TUBES, ONE OF WHICH WE INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE
FIRST.
           IN LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WERE PROVIDED --
AND I COULD BE WRONG BECAUSE I'M LOOKING AT PHOTOGRAPHS -- IT
APPEARS THAT THE TEST TUBES MAY BE PLASTIC INSTEAD OF GLASS.  I'M
NOT SURE WHETHER THAT'S MATERIAL.  AND I CAN'T TELL WHETHER THE
SMALLER TEST TUBES ARE THE IDENTICAL SIZE AND WHETHER THE OPENING
IS THE SAME AS THE LAPD TEST TUBES.  THE LAPD TEST TUBES ARE
DISPOSABLE GLASS TEST TUBES THAT ARE THROWN AWAY AFTER THE
SWATCHES ARE DRY.
           SO THAT'S ONE POINT.
           THE OTHER POINT IS THAT THE LAPD TEST TUBES ARE
PLACED IN THE CABINET LYING DOWN WHEREAS DR. LEE'S TEST TUBES
WERE UPRIGHT.
           NOW, I GUESS THERE ARE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES
TO BOTH BECAUSE YOU COULD ARGUE THAT UPRIGHT, FOR THE PURPOSES OF
CONTAMINATION, THAT SUBSTANCES MIGHT BE MORE LIKELY TO GO INTO
THE TEST TUBE THAN LYING DOWN.  BUT THERE SHOULD BE A DIFFERENCE
IN AIR FLOW AND THERE COULD ALSO BE A DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF
PRECIPITATION BECAUSE IF THE -- IF THE TEST TUBE IS LYING DOWN,
THERE'S AN EFFECT OF SEALING AND THERE IS NO SEALING IF THE TEST
TUBE IS STANDING UP, AND THAT APPEARS TO BE A POTENTIAL MATERIAL
CIRCUMSTANCE.
           WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO REPLICATE
TEMPERATURE AND HUMIDITY.  COUNSEL SAYS THAT THE LAB WAS AIR
CONDITIONED.  I DON'T RECALL THAT TESTIMONY.  HE DOESN'T HAVE A
CITATION IN THE TRANSCRIPT AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT WAS OR
NOT. BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S IN THE RECORD ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
           SO TRYING TO REPLICATE THE EXACT TEMPERATURE,
HUMIDITY CANNOT BE DONE.  AND WE DO KNOW FROM THE GENERIC
LITERATURE FROM DRYING EXPERIMENTS THAT THIS CAN PLAY A VERY
IMPORTANT ROLE IN TERMS OF THE LENGTH OF TIME THAT IT TAKES ITEMS
TO DRY.
           THE NEXT ISSUE THAT WE CANNOT DETERMINE -- I'M NOT
SAYING THAT THEY FAILED TO DETERMINE THIS.  I DON'T BELIEVE IT
CAN BE DETERMINED OR REPLICATED -- IS EXACTLY WHAT PROPORTION OF
DISTILLED WATER TO BLOOD WAS USED AT THE TIME THAT  THE SWATCHES
WERE COLLECTED IN THE FIELD BY ANDREA MAZZOLA.
           AND THE COURT WILL RECALL THE LAST TWO TIMES WE
DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF DRYING EXPERIMENTS, THAT THERE'S SOME CASE
LAW TO THE EFFECT THAT WHERE THERE'S CERTAIN VARIABLES THAT
CANNOT BE DETERMINED, THAT THOSE VARIABLES THAT CANNOT BE
REPLICATED ARE A BASIS FOR EXCLUSION OF THE TEST AS NOT BEING
SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR.
           THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE AS FAR AS WE ARE CONCERNED
NEXT TO THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THE TEST TUBES WERE STANDING
UP OR LYING DOWN IS THE QUESTION OF THE SWATCHES, THE NUMBER OF
SWATCHES IN THE TEST TUBES.  I AM NOT POSITIVE, A HUNDRED PERCENT
POSITIVE HOW THE TEST WAS PERFORMED FROM MY DISCUSSIONS WITH DR.
LEE ON THIS POINT.
           I NOW BELIEVE BASED UPON MY MOST RECENT DISCUSSIONS,
WHICH WERE VERY BRIEF IN THIS COURTROOM, THAT WHAT HE DID IN THE
CASE OF THE TEST TUBE, THE SINGLE TEST TUBE THAT CONTAINED SIX
SWATCHES, WHICH WAS THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF SWATCHES THAT ANY TEST
TUBE CONTAINED, IS THAT HE PUT A NUMBER OF SWATCHES IN THAT TEST
TUBE BECAUSE HE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ONE OUT EACH HOUR AND
THEN PLACE IT ON A BINDLE FOR THE PURPOSES OF SEEING WHETHER OR
NOT THERE WAS A TRANSFER, WHICH WOULD NECESSITATE, OF COURSE,
OPENING UP THE CABINET, GOING INTO THE TEST TUBE WITH A FORCEPS
PRESUMABLY, TAKING THE SWATCH OUT AND TESTING  IT; THEN THE NEXT
HOUR, HE'D TAKE ANOTHER SWATCH OUT AND TEST IT, NEXT HOUR, TAKE
ANOTHER SWATCH OUT AND TEST IT TO SEE WHETHER THERE WAS TRANSFER.
           OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THAT WAS DONE IN OUR PARTICULAR
CASE, THE OPENING OF THE CABINET, THE REVENTILATION OF THE
CABINET, PERHAPS REDISTRIBUTING THE SWATCHES IN THE COURSE OF
PLUCKING ONE OF THEM OUT.  AND WHAT ALSO WAS NOT DONE IS, IN OUR
PARTICULAR CASE, IN THE CASE OF 47, WE HAVE EIGHT SWATCHES IN
THAT PARTICULAR TUBE.  IN FACT, I THINK THERE WERE MORE SWATCHES
IN THAT PARTICULAR TUBE THAN ANY OF THE OTHERS, WHICH COULD BE A
REASON ACCOUNTING FOR THE DIFFERENCES IN DRYING TIME.
           ONE POSSIBILITY THAT IS PROBABLE WE BELIEVE IS THAT
SWATCHES BECOME STUCK TOGETHER IN WHAT I SUPPOSE WE COULD CALL A
SWATCH SANDWICH AND THAT THE MEAT OF THE SANDWICH AS WELL AS THE
BREAD SIDES THAT ARE FACING THE MEAT ARE NOT GOING TO DRY AS
QUICKLY AS THE EXTERIOR PORTIONS OF THE SANDWICH.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           WELL, MR. GOLDBERG, YOU SHOULD ASSUME THAT I'VE READ
YOUR POINTS AND AUTHORITIES.  AND THUS FAR, THE ARGUMENTS YOU
MADE I'VE HEARD --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OKAY.
     THE COURT:  -- OR I'VE READ.
           DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING ADDITIONAL YOU WANT TO ADD TO
YOUR POINTS AND AUTHORITIES?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT I TOOK -- I
MENTIONED THE FACT OF TAKING THE ONE SWATCH OUT AT A TIME AND NOT
KEEPING A BUNCH OF SWATCHES IN A CONDITION WHERE THEY WOULD BE
LIKELY TO BE STUCK TOGETHER.
           NOW, COUNSEL SAYS --
     THE COURT:  YOU GOT THE STUCK TOGETHER IN THERE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WHAT?
     THE COURT:  NEVER MIND.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NOW, COUNSEL SAYS, WELL, SOME OF THESE
THINGS, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND THE
PROSECUTION HAS TO PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.  NO, I THINK THE
OBLIGATION UNDER THE CASE LAW THAT WE CITED IS FOR THE PROPONENT
OF THE TEST TO SHOW THE SUBSTANTIAL MATERIALITY OF THE
CIRCUMSTANCES, AND TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT CANNOT BE DONE, THE
TEST SHOULD BE EXCLUDED.
           THIS TEST APPEARS TO BE MORE SPECULATIVE THAN THE
SOCK DRYING EXPERIMENT TEST.  AT LEAST WITH THE SOCK DRYING
EXPERIMENT, AT LEAST SOME OF THEM, IT SEEMED LIKE A CRUDE ATTEMPT
HAD BEEN MADE TO REPLICATE THE CIRCUMSTANCES TO THE EXTENT THAT
THE DEFENSE FELT THEY COULD BE REPLICATED.  HERE, THE WAY THAT
THE TEST IS DESIGNED BY IT'S DESIGN DOES NOT REPLICATE ALL OF THE
MATERIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, PARTICULARLY IN WAYS THAT ARE IMPORTANT.
           THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     MR. SCHECK:  MR. GOLDBERG INDICATES THAT AT LEAST ONE
ARGUMENT THE PROSECUTION WILL MAKE AND HAS MADE IN ITS BRIEF IS
THE SUGGESTION THAT THE SWATCHES WERE ORIGINALLY DRY AND THEN
WHEN THEY WERE PUT IN THE FREEZER AND TAKEN OUT OF THE FREEZER,
CONDENSATION FORMED, AND THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE WET TRANSFER
OBSERVED AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND IS NOTED IN THE NOTES
OF GARY SIMS.  THAT ARGUMENT IS IRRELEVANT TO THIS EXPERIMENT AND
THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE THE POINT AT ISSUE HERE IS WHETHER OR NOT
THE SWATCHES ON THE MORNING OF JUNE 14TH WHEN TAKEN OUT OF THE
TEST TUBES WERE WET OR DRY.  THAT'S THE POINT IN CONTENTION.
           THE RECORD HERE INDICATES THAT ANDREA MAZZOLA
TESTIFIED IN AUGUST THAT WHEN SHE ASSISTED DENNIS FUNG IN
REMOVING THE SWATCHES FROM THE TEST TUBES, THAT SHE INITIALED THE
BINDLES OR SHE PUT HER INITIALS ON AT LEAST SOME OF THE BINDLES.
NONE OF THESE BINDLES HAVE HER INITIALS.  THAT WAS ESTABLISHED AT
THIS TRIAL.
           WE'VE ALSO ESTABLISHED AT THIS TRIAL THROUGH THE
TESTIMONY OF THANO PERATIS THAT THERE'S 8 CC'S OF BLOOD IN THE
CALIBRATED NEEDLE THAT HE WITHDRAW BLOOD FROM MR. SIMPSON AND
WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT COLLIN YAMAUCHI USED 1 CC WHEN HE MADE THE
SWATCH -- THE FITZCO CARD AND THAT THE NEXT BUSINESS RECORD
RECORDING IS TOXICOLOGY, AND THEY MEASURED THE  AMOUNT OF BLOOD
IN THE TUBE, AND THAT'S 5.5 MILLILITERS.  THAT MEANS AT LEAST 1.5
MILLILITERS OF BLOOD IS MISSING.
           THAT IS PART OF THE BACKGROUND HERE.
           THERE IS WET TRANSFER ON THE ORIGINAL BINDLE 47.  I
DON'T THINK THAT'S IN DISPUTE BY ANY OF THEIR EXPERTS AND EVEN
>FROM MR. GOLDBERG'S ARGUMENT. THE ISSUE IS WHAT COULD HAVE CAUSED
THAT WET TRANSFER.
           WE THINK THAT IT'S SELF-EVIDENT THAT FRANKLY, IF YOU
PUT SWATCHES IN A TEST TUBE IN THIS FASHION, THEY SHOULD DRY
OVERNIGHT.  IT'S THE TESTIMONY OF DENNIS FUNG AND ANDREA MAZZOLA
THAT THESE SWATCHES WERE IN FACT DRY.
           THEY BOTH TESTIFIED TO THAT FACT.  THEY BOTH
TESTIFIED THAT THE PROCEDURE INVOLVED -- MAZZOLA IS VERY SPECIFIC
IN THE PAGE CITATIONS I PUT IN THE BRIEF, THAT THEY WOULD NOT PUT
THEM IN THE BINDLES IF THEY WERE WET.  COLLIN YAMAUCHI TESTIFIED
THAT HE NOTICED NOTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE BINDLES WHEN HE CUT THE
SWATCHES.
           HE FURTHER TESTIFIED THAT WITH RESPECT TO ANOTHER
ITEM, HE DID NOTE WHEN HE DID HIS DRAWINGS WHETHER OR NOT
SWATCHES WERE STUCK TOGETHER.  IN FACT, I KNOW THE COURT RECALLS
>FROM OUR SPLIT HEARING THAT THERE WAS ONE SET IN PARTICULAR WHERE
HE NOTED THE SWATCHES WERE STUCK TOGETHER.
           SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE RECORD AS FAR AS SWATCHES
STICKING TOGETHER OR SWATCH SANDWICHES, PRESUMPTIVELY BASED ON
THE TESTIMONY, IF THERE WERE SWATCHES STICKING TOGETHER, THEY
WOULD BE NOTED AND WHEN -- AND IT WAS NOTED IN THE INSTANCE WHERE
IT OCCURRED, AND IF THEY WEREN'T STICKING TOGETHER FOR -- IF THEY
WERE STICKING TOGETHER FOR 47, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN NOTED BY ONE
OF THESE PEOPLE SEEMS TO ME A FAIR INFERENCE FROM THIS RECORD.
           NOW, DR. LEE WENT ABOUT DOING THIS SWATCH DRYING
EXPERIMENT IN A CONTROLLED FASHION.  THE KEY HERE IS THAT THE
SWATCHES ARE THE SAME SWATCHES USED BY LAPD.  WE GOT THEM FROM
LAPD AS OPPOSED TO THE SOCK DRYING EXPERIMENT WHERE NOBODY HAS
BEEN ABLE TO FIND THE SAME KIND OF SOCK.  AND THAT IS A MATERIAL
DIFFERENCE BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO DETERMINE DRYING, YOU
NEED THE SAME KIND OF MATERIAL.  SO WE HAVE THE SAME SWATCHES.
WE GOT IT FROM THEM.
           DR. LEE THEN WENT ABOUT DOING A CONTROLLED EXPERIMENT
WHEREBY HE PERFORMED A SWATCH COLLECTION IN EXACTLY THE SAME
FASHION DESCRIBED BY FUNG AND MAZZOLA, BY PUTTING A DROP OF BLOOD
OUTDOORS ON CEMENT, LETTING IT DRY, SWATCHING IT IN THE SAME
FASHION THEY DESCRIBED AND CREATING A SERIES OF OUTDOOR SWATCHES.
THEN AS A CONTROL, HE TOOK A SERIES OF INDOOR SWATCHES WHERE HE
SATURATED THE SWATCHES WITH WHOLE BLOOD AND HE PERFORMED BOTH
EXPERIMENTS SIMULTANEOUSLY TO SEE IF THERE WOULD BE  ANY
DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF VOLUME OF BLOOD VERSUS DISTILLED WATER
AND FOUND NO DIFFERENCES.
           ESSENTIALLY, WITHIN THE RANGE OF DRYING TIMES HERE,
WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT WHEN YOU TAKE SWATCHES OUT OF THE TEST
TUBES AFTER ONE HOUR, YOU SEE WHAT TRANSFERS IS DEPICTED IN THE
-- IT'S ALL DOCUMENTED IN PHOTOS.  WHEN YOU TAKE SWATCHES OUT
AFTER TWO HOURS, YOU STILL SEE SOME EVIDENCE, BUT LESS OF WET
TRANSFER, AND AFTER THREE HOURS, NONE OF THE SWATCHES REVEALS ANY
EVIDENCE OF WET TRANSFER. THEY'RE ALL DRY.
           NOW, HE ALSO VARIED THE NUMBER OF SWATCHES IN THE
TUBES IN ORDER TO TRY TO CONTROL FOR HOW THEY MIGHT HAVE
FORTUITOUSLY BEEN IN A TUBE OVERNIGHT.  TWO TUBES HAD ONE SWATCH.
ONE TUBE HAD TWO SWATCHES.  ONE TUBE HAD THREE SWATCHES.  ONE
TUBE HAD FOUR SWATCHES.  ONE TUBE HAD SIX SWATCHES.
           HE INFORMS ME THAT THEY ARE PLASTIC TUBES.  HE ALSO
VARIED THE SIZE OF THE TUBES TO ACCOUNT FOR DIFFERENCES IN
CIRCULATION, AND THEY ALL TURNED OUT, AGAIN, TO HAVE THE SAME
PATTERN IN TERMS OF DRYING.
           HE ALSO PUT, AS WE INDICATED, DIFFERENT NUMBERS IN
THE TUBES.  THE FACT THAT THE TUBES WERE UPRIGHT AND THE SWATCHES
WERE ON TOP OF EACH OTHER IS A FACT WHICH IN EFFECT FAVORS THE
PROSECUTION SINCE IT'S THEIR CONTENTION THAT SWATCHES CREATING A
SANDWICH MIGHT TEND TO DRY WHEN THEY'RE ON TOP OF  EACH OTHER
MORE SLOWLY THAN IF THEY'RE SEPARATED FROM EACH OTHER.  SO TO
THAT EXTENT, THAT DIFFERENCE, WHICH WE DON'T THINK IS A MATERIAL
DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY, FAVORS THEM.
           NOW, THE RECORD IS CLEAR FROM MR. MATHESON AND FROM
--
     THE COURT:  IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE CALIFORNIA CASE LAW
THAT SAYS THAT IF A CONDITION MORE FAVORS ONE PARTICULAR SIDE, I
CAN IGNORE THE SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY REQUIREMENT?
     MR. SCHECK:  NO.  BUT I'M JUST POINTING OUT THAT YOU HAVE
TO MAKE A DISCRETIONARY RULING AS TO WHETHER SOMETHING IS
SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR OR NOT, WHETHER THE DIFFERENCES ARE
MATERIAL.  WE DON'T HAVE TO PROVE IDENTITY WITH RESPECT TO THE
CONDITION.
           THE ISSUE HERE IS WHETHER OR NOT THEIR OBJECTIONS ARE
MATERIAL FOR PURPOSES OF THESE EXPERIMENTS.  AND WE DON'T THINK
THAT THESE DIFFERENCES ARE CONCEIVABLY MATERIAL FOR THE LIMITED
PURPOSE FOR WHICH THE EXPERIMENT IS BEING OFFERED. AND IF THEY
THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE OR THEY'RE -- GIVEN THIS SET OF
CIRCUMSTANCES, THEY'RE PERFECTLY FREE TO DO THEIR OWN EXPERIMENTS
TO PROVE OURS ARE WRONG IN TERMS OF THE RANGE OF TIME IT TAKES
FOR A SWATCH TO DRY.
           NOW, WE'LL ALL BEEN TO THE EVIDENCE PROCESSING ROOM,
AND THE CABINET IS DESCRIBED AS A NORMAL ROOM, AIR CONDITION IN
THE LAB, IT'S ROOM TEMPERATURE, AN ORDINARY CABINET.  THAT'S THE
TESTIMONY.  NO SPECIAL HEATING OR COOLING THERE.  SO ON THE
ASSUMPTION THAT IT'S 25 DEGREES CENTIGRADE, HE PUT -- DR. LEE PUT
HIS SWATCHES IN A CABINET THAT IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR TO THE
CABINET WE SEE DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS IN THIS ROOM.
           IF THERE IS SOME FACTOR HERE UNBEKNOWNST TO ANY OF US
THAT THE EVIDENCE PROCESSING ROOM FOR SOME REASON AT LAPD WAS
UNUSUALLY HOT OR UNUSUALLY COLD AND IT WASN'T ROOM TEMPERATURE,
THEN THEY'RE PERFECTLY FREE TO BRING THAT ON TO PROVE THAT
THERE'S A MATERIAL DIFFERENCE HERE.  BUT I DON'T HEAR ANY OF THAT
AND I THINK THE RECORD BASED ON THE TESTIMONY OF EVERYBODY AND
OUR VISITS TO THE LAB IS THAT IT'S ROOM TEMPERATURE.
     THE COURT:  BUT DON'T YOU AGREE THAT OUGHT TO BE THE
OBLIGATION OF THE PROPONENT TO ESTABLISH THAT?
     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, THE RECORD IS THAT THIS WAS A ROOM AT
ROOM TEMPERATURE AND THAT -- AND THEY PUT IT IN AN ORDINARY
CABINET.  SO WE REPLICATED THAT CONDITION AND THAT'S WHAT THE
TESTIMONY WILL BE.  I THINK WE'VE DEMONSTRATED THAT.
           WITH RESPECT TO THE ARGUMENT THAT THE PROPORTION OF
BLOOD TO DISTILLED WATER ON THE EVIDENCE SWATCHES IS UNKNOWN
PREVENTING DUPLICATION OF THIS CONDITION IN THE SWATCH DRYING
EXPERIMENT, DR. LEE WILL TESTIFY THAT THE ACTUAL SWATCHES IN THIS
CASE AND THE OUTDOOR SWATCHES START WITH ONE DROP OF BLOOD, WHICH
IS APPROXIMATELY .05 CC'S.  HE GETS THESE NUMBERS FROM EXTENSIVE
EXPERIMENTATION WITH BLOOD DROPS, WHICH HE WILL TESTIFY TO.  AND
THE RANGE OF VARIATION ORDINARILY FOUND IS BETWEEN .03 TO .06.
           SO UNLESS -- THE TESTIMONY IS CLEAR AS TO THE METHODS
USED BY ANDREA MAZZOLA IN WETTING A SWATCH AND TAKING THE
BLOODSTAIN.  NOTHING IN THAT TESTIMONY INDICATES THAT SHE WOULD
HAVE SATURATED IT WITH A VOLUME OF DISTILLED WATER THAT IN DR.
LEE'S OPINION COULD MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE HERE, YOU KNOW, 10 CC'S
OF WATER IN TERMS OF THIS SWATCH DRYING EXPERIMENT.  AND AS I
INDICATED, HE DID A CONTROL BY HAVING ONE SET OF SWATCHES THAT
WERE JUST SATURATED IN BLOOD INDOORS.  SO WE TRIED TO CONTROL FOR
THOSE CONDITIONS.
           AND I THINK I'VE ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF WHETHER THE
SWATCHES WERE STUCK TOGETHER OR NOT.  I THINK THE RECORD IS CLEAR
THAT THEY NOTED WHEN SWATCHES WERE STUCK TOGETHER, AND ACCORDING
TO THEM, THERE'S NO NOTATION OF SWATCHES BEING STUCK TOGETHER
HERE.  SO AS FAR AS THAT'S CONCERNED, THEY'RE FREE TO ARGUE TO
THE JURY OR BRING ON A WITNESS IN REBUTTAL  TO SAY, "I FORGOT TO
TELL YOU AND I FORGOT TO INDICATE IN MY DRAWINGS THAT THE
SWATCHES WERE STUCK TOGETHER."
           AND I THINK THAT THAT ABOUT COVERS IT EXCEPT FOR THE
FACT THAT I THINK IT IS A CRITICAL ISSUE AS TO GETTING A RANGE
BEFORE THE JURY AS TO WHEN THESE KINDS OF SWATCHES WOULD DRY AND
WHEN THEY WOULDN'T AND WHEN THEY WOULD LEAVE WET TRANSFER AND
WHEN THEY WOULDN'T.  AND THAT'S THE LIMITED PURPOSE FOR THIS, AND
FOR THAT LIMITED PURPOSE, WE FEEL THAT THIS EXPERIMENT IS
SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR TO THE CONDITIONS AT ISSUE AND THAT THE
PROSECUTION HAS NOT SHOWN THAT THERE ARE MATERIAL DIFFERENCES
THAT WOULD WEIGH SO HEAVILY IN THIS EQUATION THAT THIS HIGHLY
RELEVANT EVIDENCE SHOULDN'T GO BEFORE THE JURY.  AND IT'S ALL
DOCUMENTED.
           AND FINALLY, THE REASON THAT I -- THIS EXPERIMENT WAS
THE LAST THING DR. LEE DID JUST BEFORE FILING HIS REPORT.  SO
THEY GOT THIS IMMEDIATELY WITHIN DAYS OF THE COMPLETION OF THE
EXPERIMENT WITH ALL HIS NOTES, ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHS, ALL THE
DOCUMENTATION, AND THEY ASKED HIM ABOUT IT A NUMBER OF TIMES
ALREADY, WEEKS BEFORE HE CAME IN HERE TO TESTIFY.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MAY I JUST RESPOND BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR?
     THE COURT:  BRIEFLY, IF YOU MUST.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
           FIRST OF ALL -- AND I'LL JUST HIT THE ISSUES VERY
QUICKLY, YOUR HONOR.  THE IDEA THAT THERE'S A COMMON DROP SIZE
BETWEEN 50 AND 60 MICROLITERS IS SOMETHING THAT IS STATED IN DR.
-- EXCUSE ME -- IN MR. MAC DONELL'S BOOK ON BLOOD SPATTER, BUT I
AM NOT AWARE OF EMPIRICAL DATA TO SUPPORT THAT PROPOSITION.  IF
DR. LEE IS GOING TO RELY ON SUCH MATERIAL, I BELIEVE THAT WE'RE
ENTITLED TO HAVE THAT IN DISCOVERY AND I'M SURE HE WILL PROBABLY
PROVIDE IT TO US UPON OUR REQUEST.  I'M JUST SAYING I'M NOT AWARE
OF SUCH MATERIAL.
           I DON'T WANT TO ADDRESS WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE
NONISSUES, WHICH ARE THE QUESTIONS OF ANDREA MAZZOLA SAYING -- OF
ANDREA MAZZOLA'S INITIALS NOT BEING ON THE BINDLE BECAUSE SHE
DIDN'T BINDLE VIRTUALLY ANY OF THE ITEMS HERE AND JUST NOT --
NEITHER HERE OR NOT DOESN'T ADD SUBSTANTIAL MATERIALITY OF THE
EXPERIMENT AND I THINK WE SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON THE ISSUE AT
HAND.  CERTAINLY DENNIS FUNG'S DETERMINATION THAT THEY APPEARED
TO BE DRY, WHICH IS WHAT HE'S SAYING, BUT HE DID NOT CHECK THEM,
YOU KNOW, BY FEELING THEM OBVIOUSLY IS AGAIN NOT IN ANY WAY
RELEVANT TO THE SUBSTANTIAL MATERIALITY OF THE TEST, WHICH IS THE
LEGAL ISSUE THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.
           THE SWATCHES IT SEEMS VERY LIKELY COULD HAVE STUCK
TOGETHER OR BEEN PLACED ONE ON TOP OF EACH OTHER WHILE THEY WERE
LYING DOWN AFTER BEING POURED OUT INTO THE -- POURED OUT INTO A
BINDLE AND THEN PACKAGED, COULD HAVE BEEN RECONFIGURED, AND WE'LL
NEVER BE ABLE TO REPLICATE THEM AND I WOULDN'T EXPECT ANYONE TO
BE ABLE TO REPLICATE THEM.
           BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I WOULD LIKE TO SAY,
YOUR HONOR, IN RESPONSE TO COUNSEL'S ARGUMENT IN RELATIONSHIP TO
THE FREEZING AND UNFREEZING -- AND THIS IS THE LAST POINT I'LL
MAKE BECAUSE I KNOW THE COURT WOULD LIKE TO GET ON WITH THE
MATTER -- THE ISSUE IS BEING DEFINED MORE NARROWLY BY COUNSEL
THAN IT REALLY IS.  HE'S SAYING ALL WE WANT TO SHOW IS HOW LONG
IT TAKES SWATCHES TO DRY AND THAT'S THE ISSUE AND, THEREFORE,
FREEZING AND UNFREEZING IS NOT RELEVANT.
           THE REAL ISSUE IS NOT HOW LONG IT TAKES SWATCHES TO
DRY.  NO ONE CARES ABOUT THAT.  THE ISSUE IS HOW DO TRANSFERS
OCCUR IN BINDLES.  THAT'S THE ISSUE THAT THE DEFENSE CARES ABOUT.
THAT'S THE ISSUE THAT THE PARTIES ARE GOING TO BE ARGUING ABOUT.
THAT IS THE ISSUE THAT THIS EXPERIMENT THEORETICALLY IS SUPPOSED
TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE TO THE JURORS ABOUT.
           AND, THEREFORE, FREEZING AND UNFREEZING, EVERYTHING
THAT HAPPENED TO THESE SWATCHES BETWEEN THE TIME THAT THE BINDLE
WAS CREATED AND THE TIME THAT THE TRANSFER WAS NOTICED IS
RELEVANT.  AND NO ONE IS AWARE OF WHAT THE EFFECT IS ON FREEZING
AND UNFREEZING, BECAUSE A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN
BROUGHT UP IN THIS CASE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT. THEY'VE HAVEN'T BEEN
INVESTIGATED IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE.  THERE ARE NO
EXPERIMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE.
           SO WE ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO MAKE GUESSES WELL, THIS
COULD HAPPEN, THIS MIGHT HAPPEN, MAYBE IF YOU DID IT THIS WAY, IT
WOULD BE DIFFERENT OR MORE FAVORABLE TO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.
THE POINT IS, WE DON'T KNOW, AND THIS EXPERIMENT DOESN'T TELL US
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REPLICATE SUBSTANTIALLY THE MATERIAL
CIRCUMSTANCES WITH RESPECT TO THESE ITEMS.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
           ALL RIGHT.
           I'VE REVIEWED THE POINTS AND AUTHORITIES THAT WERE
FILED BY BOTH SIDES AND HEARD THE SUBSTANTIAL ARGUMENT.
           THE ISSUE BEFORE THE COURT IS WHETHER OR NOT THE
CONDITIONS OF THE EXPERIMENT AS OFFERED SUBSTANTIALLY REPLICATE
THE CONDITIONS OF THE SWATCH DRYING THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED IN THIS
CASE.  THE COURT IS AWARE FROM HAVING REVIEWED THE BOARDS THAT
THE  DEFENSE IS GOING TO OFFER PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SWATCH BINDLES
THAT ARE GOING TO INDICATE SOME STAINING WITHIN, WHICH IS GOING
TO INDICATE THAT THERE WAS SOME -- THAT THE SWATCHES WERE, IN
FACT, WET AT SOME POINT IN TIME WHILE THEY WERE WITHIN THOSE
BINDLES AND THE DEFENSE CAN PROVE THAT BY THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS.
           I'M CONCERNED THAT THE TEMPERATURE HAS NOT BEEN
DOCUMENTED AND ESTABLISHED THAT THE HUMIDITY, WHICH WOULD HAVE AN
IMPACT ON THE DRYING TIME, HAS NOT BEEN DOCUMENTED OR
ESTABLISHED, THAT WE HAVE NOT DETERMINED THE BLOOD OR LIQUID
CONTENT OF THESE SWATCHES NOR THE PARTICULAR DROP SIZE.  I'M ALSO
CONCERNED ABOUT THE UPRIGHT NATURE OF THE TEST TUBES GIVEN THE --
FOR ALL THE HUMOR ABOUT THE SANDWICH PROBLEM, IT IS AN ISSUE THAT
I'M NOT CLEAR ON.
           I THEREFORE FIND THAT THERE IS INSUBSTANTIAL
SIMILARLY, AND THE OBJECTION WILL BE SUSTAINED.
           ALL RIGHT.
           LET'S HAVE THE JURY.

             (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
            HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
            PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A SEAT.
           ALL RIGHT.
           LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE
MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
           GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
     THE JURY:  GOOD MORNING.
     THE COURT:  I DON'T KNOW QUITE HOW TO TELL YOU THIS.  YOU
HAVE A RATHER UNUSUAL DISTINCTION AS A SEQUESTERED JURY.  AS YOU
KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN SEQUESTERED SINCE MID-JANUARY, AND AS OF
YESTERDAY, YOU HAVE SURPASSED THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT THE MANSON
JURY, IF YOU RECOLLECT FROM 20 YEARS AGO, WAS IN SEQUESTRATION.
SO SOME KIND OF A DUBIOUS RECORD I'M SURE.
           IN TALKING TO SOME OF YOU INDIVIDUALLY AND IN
OBSERVING YOU, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE VERY TOUGH AND TENACIOUS GROUP
OF PEOPLE.  I KNOW THAT YOU'VE MADE A COMMITMENT TO SEE THIS
MATTER THROUGH AND I KNOW THAT YOU ARE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE
DELAYS THAT WE'VE HAD, BUT I'M SURE AFTER I'VE TRIED TO EXPLAIN
THEM TO YOU, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S CERTAIN THINGS THAT JUST
HAVE TO BE TAKEN UP OUT OF YOUR  PRESENCE AND THAT TAKE A
SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF TIME UNFORTUNATELY.
           I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I'VE EXPRESSED AGAIN MY
CONCERN TO THE LAWYERS FOR BOTH SIDES THAT WE MOVE THIS CASE
ALONG AT A LITTLE FASTER PACE. BEFORE ME RIGHT NOW, THERE IS A
VERY SIGNIFICANT LEGAL ISSUE THAT I'M GOING TO HAVE TO SPEND A
CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME CONSIDERING OUTSIDE YOUR PRESENCE,
BUT I'M GOING TO BE DOING THAT THIS FRIDAY AFTERNOON AND I
ANTICIPATE WORKING ON THESE MATTERS OVER THE WEEKEND BOTH
SATURDAY AND SUNDAY SO THAT WE DON'T TAKE UP JURY TIME FOR THOSE
MATTERS.
           I WANT YOU TO KNOW WE'RE VERY COGNIZANT OF THE
DEMANDS THAT WE'VE MADE UPON YOU.  I KNOW THAT THIS HAS NOT BEEN
AN EASY EXPERIENCE FOR ANY OF YOU. PROBABLY FUN FOR ABOUT THE
FIRST EIGHT HOURS.  THEN AFTER THAT, IT BECAME REAL TOUGH.
           BUT EACH OF YOU HAS SHOWN US BY YOUR ENDURANCE AND BY
YOUR CHEERFULNESS EVERY DAY WHEN YOU COME IN HERE THAT YOU'RE
STILL WITH US.  BUT I WANT YOU TO KNOW WE APPRECIATE THE BURDEN
WE'VE PLACED UPON YOU AND THE DEMANDS AND RESTRICTIONS THAT WE'VE
PLACED UPON YOU.  THIS IS MUCH WORE THAN BEING IN THE ARMY I'M
SURE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
           BUT I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT EACH AND EVERY PERSON
INVOLVED IN THE PROSECUTION AND THE DEFENSE IN THIS CASE
APPRECIATES YOUR SACRIFICES AND THEY WILL KEEP THAT IN MIND IN
THE FUTURE AS THEY  PREPARE THEIR EXAMINATIONS OF WITNESSES AND
WILL HOPEFULLY KEEP THEIR EXAMINATIONS TO WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY
NECESSARY.
           ALL RIGHT.
           HAVING SAID THAT, ALSO, MISS CLARK, ONE OF THE LEAD
PROSECUTORS, IS NOT AVAILABLE TODAY. HOWEVER, THE PROSECUTION HAS
DECIDED TO PROCEED IN HER ABSENCE, AND SHE CAN READ THE
TRANSCRIPT AND/OR SEE IT ON T.V. TO CATCH UP WITH US.
           ALL RIGHT.
           DR. LEE, WOULD YOU RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE.
     THE WITNESS:  YES, YOUR HONOR.

                     HENRY C. LEE,

THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT,
RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT DR. HENRY LEE --
     THE WITNESS:  GOOD MORNING.
     THE COURT:  -- IS AGAIN ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDERGOING
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHECK.
           ALL RIGHT.
           GOOD MORNING AGAIN, DR. LEE.
     THE WITNESS:  GOOD MORNING.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           DOCTOR, YOU ARE REMINDED, SIR, THAT YOU ARE STILL
UNDER OATH.
           MR. SCHECK, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR DIRECT
EXAMINATION.
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.  THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.  AND I HOPE TO
CONCLUDE THE DIRECT EXAMINATION.
           GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY.
     THE JURY:  GOOD MORNING.

                  DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MR. SCHECK:
     Q     DR. LEE --
     THE COURT:  EXCUSE ME, MR. SCHECK.
           MISS MOXHAM, OUR COURT REPORTER, INDICATES THAT SHE'S
PROBABLY ABLE TO GO THROUGH TO THE NOON HOUR.
     MR. SCHECK:  GREAT.
           YOUR HONOR, WITH PERMISSION OF THE COURT, I'D LIKE TO
TAKE OUT A BOARD.
     THE COURT:  YOU MAY.
           MR. HARRIS.
     MR. SCHECK:  THIS WOULD BE DEFENSE NEXT IN ORDER, 1356, AND
THIS BOARD IS ENTITLED ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE, FRONT FOYER.
     THE COURT:  1356, EIGHT PHOTOGRAPHS.

         (DEFT'S 1356 FOR ID = BOARD)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           DR. LEE, YOU MAY STEP DOWN TO SEE THAT.
     THE WITNESS:  THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, WERE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN
ON THE JUNE 25TH VISIT THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY HAVE DESCRIBED TO US
AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOME?
     A     YES.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           AND COULD YOU PLEASE, STARTING WITH THE PHOTOGRAPH ON
THE UPPER LEFT-HAND CORNER OF 1356, ENTITLED "FRONT ENTRANCE,"
DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT IS SHOWN ON THIS BOARD?
     A     IN JUNE 25TH, 1994, AFTERNOON, APPROXIMATELY 4:00
O'CLOCK, I TOOK THIS PHOTOGRAPH (INDICATING).  SHOWS A OVERALL
VIEW OF THIS FRONT ENTRANCE DOOR, ENTER THE RESIDENCE.
     Q     DR. LEE, AT THAT TIME, DID YOU PERFORM ANY
PRESUMPTIVE TESTS ON THE DOORKNOBS AND LOCK MECHANISMS AND LIGHT
SWITCHES IN THIS AREA?
     A     YES, SIR.
     Q     WHAT DID YOU DO AND WHAT WERE THE RESULTS?
     A     I DID THAT CHEMICAL PRESUMPTIVE TEST, GENERALLY REFER
O-TOLIDINE TEST, WHICH WILL REACT WITH HEME OR ANY PEROXIDASE, A
COLORLESS REAGENT WILL TURN TO A BLUE COLOR.  IF THAT TURN TO
BLUE, INDICATES CERTAIN RESULT.  IF NO REACTION, DID NOT TURN
BLUE, MEANS ABSENCE OF BLOOD.
     Q     WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF YOUR TEST -- DID YOU TEST
ANYTHING ON THE DOORKNOBS HERE?
     A     I TEST BOTH OUTSIDE, INSIDE DOORKNOB, DOOR HINGE,
OTHER AREA, THE LIGHT SWITCHES AND ALL THIS AREA, METAL SURFACE,
THE DOOR SIDE (INDICATING).
     Q     WERE THE RESULTS NEGATIVE?
     A     THE RESULT --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, TO PRESUMPTIVE BLOOD
TESTING.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  ALL MY TEST RESULT WERE NEGATIVE.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DID YOU PERFORM -- DID YOU EXAMINE
THE STAIRCASE GOING UPSTAIRS?
     A     YES, SIR, I DID.
     Q     AND WHAT DID YOU DO AND WHAT DID YOU FIND?
     A     I USE A MAGNIFY GLASS, LOOK THROUGH EVERY STEPS.  ANY
STEP HAVE A DISCOLORATION OR BROWNISH COLOR OR ANY OTHER
INDICATION, I WILL PERFORM A TEST.
     Q     WHAT RESULTS?
     A     ALL NEGATIVE.
     Q     WOULD THAT BE AN INDICATION THAT THERE WAS NO BLOOD
OF ANY KIND THAT YOU COULD DETECT IN YOUR EXAMINATION OF THE
STAIRS LEADING UP TO MR. SIMPSON'S BEDROOM?
     A     THE AREA I TESTED, I DID NOT FIND ANY BLOOD.
     Q     DID YOU DO SOMETHING -- DID YOU PERFORM A -- THE SAME
EXAMINATION OF THE HALLWAY THAT LEADS INTO MR. SIMPSON'S BEDROOM?
     A     YES.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OBJECTION AS TO DATE, YOUR HONOR.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  THIS IS ALL ON JUNE 25TH I TAKE IT?
     A     YES.
     Q     AND WHAT WERE THE RESULTS THERE?
     A     NEGATIVE.
     Q     NOW, CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FOYER FLOOR
PHOTOGRAPH.  COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THAT IS?
     A     FOYER FLOOR PHOTOGRAPH IS DEPICT A CENTER PORTION OF
THE FRONT ENTER FOYER -- FOYER.  I HAVE TO POINT IT OUT.  THIS IS
NOT AN IMPERFECTION OF THE FLOORBOARD.  IT'S A PHOTOGRAPH PROVIDE
TO ME BY MR. SHAPIRO.  THAT'S A ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN BY
LAPD.
           I USE THAT PHOTOGRAPH TO LOCATE THE FLOORBOARD.
FLOORBOARD HAVE DIFFERENT NUMBER OF SOME TYPE OF -- LIKE
NAIL-TYPE OF OBJECT SO I CAN IDENTIFY THIS AREA (INDICATING).  SO
I WAS SUBSEQUENTLY ABLE TO LOCATE THE AREA LAPD TESTED.
     Q     NOW, THIS IS -- IF ONE GETS CLOSE TO THIS PHOTOGRAPH,
ONE CAN DETECT THAT THIS IS AN EVIDENCE CARD INDICATING ITEM NO.
12, AND IT SHOWS THREE BLOOD DROPS IN THAT AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?
     A     YES, SIR.
     Q     AND SO THIS PHOTOGRAPH THEN I GUESS YOU'RE SAYING IS
YOUR EFFORT TO LOCATE EXACTLY WHERE THAT WAS ON THE FLOOR AS YOU
SAW IT ON JUNE 25TH?
     A     YES.
     Q     IS THAT RIGHT?
     A     YES.
     Q     OKAY.
           PLEASE PROCEED.
     A     UPON CHECKING THE AREA, I WAS ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE
THREE LOCATIONS.  THE THREE LOCATION APPARENTLY BEEN SWABBED AND
CREATED A SWAB PATTERN. I WAS ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THAT.  COMPARE
WITH THE PHOTOGRAPH, I WAS ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE LOCATION.
     Q     DID YOU LOCATE ANY OTHER REDDISH STAINS THAT WERE
CONSISTENT WITH BLOODSTAINS IN THAT AREA?
     A     YES, SIR.
     Q     ARE THOSE DEPICTED ON THE REMAINING PHOTOGRAPHS?
     A     YES.
     Q     COULD YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE THAT?
     A     SUBSEQUENTLY, I NOTICED THERE ARE THREE ADDITIONAL
STAIN, THIS STAIN 1, STAIN NO. 2, STAIN NO. 3.  THIS IS A
CLOSE-UP VIEW.  THE LAST COLUMN TOP PICTURE SHOWS THIS CLOSE-UP
VIEW OF THIS PARTICULAR STAIN (INDICATING).
     Q     SO ALTOGETHER, IF ONE COUNTS THE THREE STAINS
IDENTIFIED BY LAPD AS ITEM NO. 12 AND THE STAINS THAT YOU FOUND,
HOW MANY BLOODSTAINS WERE IN THIS AREA ALTOGETHER?
     A     SIX.
     Q     WERE THERE ANY DIFFERENCES THAT YOU COULD DETECT
BETWEEN THE -- IN TERMS OF SIZE WITH RESPECT TO THESE STAINS?
     A     THE THREE WHICH ARE ALREADY SWABBED, ONE I WAS ABLE
POSITIVELY DETERMINE THE SIZE BECAUSE THE PERIPHERY CROSS STILL
REMAIN.  TWO OTHER, AS YOU CAN SEE DEPICT IN THIS PHOTO, BEEN
SWABBED AROUND, SWABBED AROUND.  THE DIAMETER OF THIS
SWABBED-AROUND AREA IS APPROXIMATELY HALF INCH.
           THE ORIGINAL BLOOD DROP SIZE IS GOING TO BE MUCH
SMALLER THAN WHAT BEEN SWABBED BECAUSE WHEN YOU DROP A DROP OF
STAIN, IF YOU TRY TO SWIPE IT, YOU GOING TO CREATE BIGGER AREA.
           THE THREE I EXAMED, I WAS USE A SCALE WAS ABLE TO
DETERMINE TWO SMALLER ONE, IS ONE 15, ONE OF 15 IN DIAMETER.
OTHER ONE IS ONE OF THE 10 INCHES, ONE OF 10 INCHES, 10TH OF AN
INCH, 15TH OF AN INCH. SO IT IS RELATIVE SMALL BLOODSTAIN
(INDICATING).
     Q     NOW, ARE SOME OF THESE BLOODSTAINS CONSISTENT WITH
VERTICAL DROPLETS?
     A     THEY'RE ALL CONSISTENT WITH DROPLETS. IT'S NOT A
REGULAR BLOOD DROP.  IT'S A DROPLET, SMALLER DROPS.
     Q     SO SOME ARE BIGGER, SOME ARE SMALLER?
     A     YES.
     Q     WOULD THE SMALLER STAINS -- WOULD ANY OF THESE BE
CONSISTENT WITH WHAT IS KNOWN AS A CAST-OFF PATTERN?
     A     YES.
     Q     AND SO IF ONE HAD A SUPERFICIAL CUT ON THE SIDE OF A
FINGER AND SHOOK IT IN THE FASHION THAT I'M DOING --
     MR. SCHECK:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT I'M SHAKING MY
HAND DOWN.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  -- DOES THAT CREATE CAST-OFF PATTERN?
     A     YES.
     Q     AND WOULD THAT BE CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU FOUND
HERE?
     A     YES.
     Q     COULD THE PATTERN THAT YOU FOUND HERE BE CONSISTENT
WITH A SUPERFICIAL CUT ON THE SIDE OF THE FINGER?
     A     IT CONSISTENT WITH A SMALL VOLUME OF BLOOD.
     Q     IS THE PATTERN THAT YOU SEE HERE CONSISTENT WITH A
MAJOR CUT?
     A     NO.
     MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           YOUR HONOR, WE'RE FINISHED WITH THIS BOARD.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, BEFORE I MOVE ON TO THE NEXT
SERIES OF BOARDS, I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU BRIEFLY SOME QUESTIONS
ABOUT THE BRONCO.
           DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PERSONALLY EXAMINE AND
LOOK AT THE BRONCO?
     A     NO.
     Q     COULD YOU DO A RECONSTRUCTION OF THE BRONCO?
     A     I CANNOT DO A RECONSTRUCTION BECAUSE I DID NOT HAVE A
DIRECT EXAMINATION, OBSERVATION OF ORIGINAL CONDITION.
     Q     DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT SOME PICTURES
OF THE BLOOD IN THE BRONCO?
     A     YES, I DID.  I LOOK SOME OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS SENT TO
ME.
     Q     WHAT IS THE PATTERN OF THE BLOODSTAINS YOU SAW IN
THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS?
     THE COURT:  IT'S VAGUE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  IT'S VAGUE.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  COULD YOU, FROM LOOKING AT THOSE
PICTURES, CHARACTERIZE WHAT KIND OF BLOODSTAIN YOU SAW?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  STILL VAGUE, OVERLY BROAD, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  DATE AND TIME, WHICH PHOTOS, WHICH PART OF THE
BRONCO.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHICH PHOTOS DID YOU LOOK AT?
     A     HOW DO I KNOW?
     Q     WELL --
     A     I DON'T KNOW.
     Q     DID YOU LOOK AT PHOTOS OF THE DOOR, THE --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  LEADING.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK: -- DRIVER'S DOOR --
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  -- OF THE BRONCO?
     A     YES.  I LOOK AT SOME PHOTO APPEARS TO DEPICT A DOOR.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           DID YOU LOOK AT PHOTOS OF THE CONSOLE?
     A     YES.  I DID LOOK AT PICTURE DEPICT PORTION OF THE
CONSOLE.
     Q     DR. LEE, WHAT IS A SMEAR?
     A     A SMEAR IS A CONTACTS WITH A MOVEMENT.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           WERE THE PATTERN OF BLOODSTAINS THAT YOU SAW DEPICTED
IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS ON THE DOOR AND THE CONSOLE, WERE THEY SMEARS?
     A     APPEAR TO BE CONSISTENT WITH SMEAR.
     Q     TO THE EXTENT YOU COULD TELL FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS,
WHAT KINDS OF SMEARS ARE THEY IN TERMS OF THE SATURATION?
     A     I ONLY --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  VAGUE, YOUR HONOR, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS, COULD YOU MAKE
A JUDGMENT AS TO WHETHER THESE WERE HEAVILY SATURATED SMEARS OR
SLIGHT SMEARS?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  STILL VAGUE.  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  IT CONSISTENT WITH LIGHT SMEAR.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CONSOLE.
WHAT KIND OF SURFACE IS THAT?
     A     I DON'T KNOW.
     Q     WELL, WHAT IS A NONABSORBENT SURFACE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, THIS IS LEADING.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT IS A NONABSORBENT SURFACE?
     THE COURT:  IN THIS CONTEXT, IT IS.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IS A PLASTIC -- COULD YOU DESCRIBE --
IN TERMS OF ABSORBENCIES, CAN YOU CHARACTERIZE CATEGORIES OF
SURFACES?
     A     YES.
     Q     WHAT ARE THEY?
     A     WELL, YOU CAN PUT IN TWO GENERAL CATEGORY.  SOME ARE
ABSORBENT, SOME NOT ABSORBENT. OF COURSE, THERE ARE SOME
IN-BETWEEN.
           A SURFACE LIKE PLASTIC GENERALLY REFER NONABSORBENT
SURFACE.  A SURFACE WITH A TISSUE, COTTON, THOSE CLOTHES IS
REFERRED AS AN ABSORBENT SURFACE.
     Q     I ASK YOU TO ASSUME THAT THE CONSOLE THAT YOU SAW IN
THAT PHOTOGRAPH IS A PLASTIC SURFACE, NONABSORBENT SURFACE.
BASED ON THE PHOTOGRAPHS, CAN YOU MAKE AN ESTIMATE AS TO THE
VOLUME OF BLOOD THAT IT WOULD TAKE TO CREATE THE SMEARS, THE
LIGHT SMEARS YOU SAW ON THAT SURFACE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION, SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  I THINK IT'S VAGUE BECAUSE THERE ARE SEPARATE
SMEARS ON -- APPEAR TO BE ON THE CONSOLE.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WELL, YOU SAW A SERIES OF SMEARS ON
THE CONSOLE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, ALSO NO FOUNDATION AS TO WHICH
PHOTOS.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           HAVE YOU SEEN PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE CONSOLE WITH --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  LEADING.
     MR. SCHECK:  I HAVEN'T LED HIM.
     THE COURT:  PROCEED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  -- WITH EVIDENCE TAGS ON THEM
PROVIDED TO YOU FROM THE LAPD?
     A     APPEAR TO BE SOME PHOTOGRAPHS PROVIDE TO ME BY THE
DEFENSE COUNSEL.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           NOW, FROM THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS, WHAT CAN YOU -- CAN YOU
TELL PRECISELY WHAT THE VOLUME OF BLOOD IS ON THOSE SURFACES?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  STILL VAGUE, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WERE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE
CONSOLE?
     A     YES.
     Q     SERIES OF SMEARS ON THE CONSOLE?
     A     YES.
     Q     FROM THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS, CAN YOU TELL US PRECISELY HOW
MUCH BLOOD THERE WAS ON THAT CONSOLE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  VAGUE.  NO FOUNDATION, SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           FOUNDATION, COUNSEL.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS YOU SAW --
     THE COURT:  COUNSEL, AS SOON YOU SAY -- WE'RE NOT GETTING
PAST THE PHOTOGRAPHS.  WHAT PHOTOGRAPHS?
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           DID YOU SEE PHOTOGRAPHS WITH EVIDENCE MARKERS LABELED
30, 31?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  LEADING.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  UH, I THINK I SAW A PHOTOGRAPH IN THAT
NATURE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MOTION TO STRIKE.  SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DID YOU SEE ADDITIONAL PHOTOGRAPHS
TAKEN ON AUGUST 26TH THAT HAD NUMBERS 303, 304, 305?
     THE COURT:  COUNSEL, THESE PHOTOGRAPHS ARE IN EVIDENCE ON
BOARDS.  WHY DON'T WE JUST SHOW THEM TO DR. LEE AND SAY, "ARE
THESE THE PHOTOGRAPHS YOU SAW? BASED UPON WHAT YOU SAW THERE AS
TO THIS AREA, CAN YOU TELL US HOW MUCH BLOOD IS THERE?"
OTHERWISE, THE JURY HAS NO IDEA WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, I'M TRYING TO BE EXPEDITIOUS, YOUR
HONOR.  I THINK WE'VE ALL SEEN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.
     THE COURT:  WELL, MAYBE MR. BLASIER CAN FIND IT FOR YOU.
     MR. SCHECK:  WE WILL MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE, YOUR HONOR.
I THOUGHT THIS WAS SELF-EVIDENT, BUT IN MY DESIRE TO BE
EXPEDITIOUS --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, I MAKE A MOTION TO STRIKE
COUNSEL'S COMMENT.
     THE COURT:  YES.  YES.
           THANK YOU.

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, I WOULD ASK THAT THIS BOARD BE
MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S 1357 ENTITLED, "BLOODSTAINS ON EVIDENCE
BAG."
     THE COURT:  SO MARKED.

         (DEFT'S 1357 FOR ID = BOARD)

     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, BETTER YET, BEFORE WE DO THAT, YOUR
HONOR, WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, I'D LIKE TO DISPLAY 1167 AND
1087.
           11 -- 1087 IS PHOTOGRAPH OF THE CONSOLE WITH TAGS 30
AND 31 AND 1167 IS THE AUGUST 26TH PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE STAINS ON
THE CONSOLE.

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, I SHOW YOU FIRST 1087.
           IS THAT THE PHOTOGRAPH WE WERE REFERRING TO BEFORE
WITH THE EVIDENCE TAGS 30 AND 31 TAKEN ON JUNE 14?
     A     YES.
     Q     I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU THE NEXT PHOTOGRAPH, WHICH IS
1167.
           IS THAT THE CONSOLE PICTURE FROM THE AUGUST 26TH
SEARCH WITH THE NUMBERS 303, 304, 305 AND 306 ON IT, THE ONES WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE?
     A     YES.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           NOW, DR. LEE, WITH RESPECT TO THESE PHOTOGRAPHS,
GOING BACK TO THE QUESTION I WAS ASKING YOU BEFORE, I'M ASKING
YOU TO ASSUME -- YOU DID NOT ACTUALLY INSPECT THE PHYSICAL -- THE
CONSOLE ITSELF?
     A     NO, I DID NOT.
     Q     COULDN'T GET TO SEE THE BRONCO ITSELF?
     A     NO.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WAIT A MINUTE.  COULDN'T -- MOTION TO STRIKE
THAT.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DID NOT SEE THE BRONCO ITSELF.
     THE COURT:  HE'S REPHRASED THE QUESTION.
           PROCEED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DID NOT SEE THE BRONCO ITSELF?
     A     NO, I DID NOT.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           SO YOU CAN ONLY BASE THIS ON THE PICTURES?
     A     YES.
     Q     AND THE ASSUMPTION THAT THIS IS A NONABSORBENT
PLASTIC SURFACE THAT I'M ASKING YOU TO MAKE?
     A     ALSO ASSUME THE COLOR IS A TRUE REPRESENTATION OF THE
ORIGINAL COLOR.
     Q     IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS?
     A     PHOTOGRAPH.
     Q     BASED -- GIVEN THOSE LIMITATIONS, BASED ON WHAT YOU
SEE, CAN YOU TELL PRECISELY HOW MUCH BLOOD IS ON THE CONSOLE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION, CALLS FOR OPINION,
SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MAY WE APPROACH?
     THE COURT:  NO.
     THE WITNESS:  I CANNOT TELL YOU EXACTLY VOLUME JUST BY
LOOKING THESE TWO PICTURES.  THERE ARE METHODS.  IF I HAVE THE
CONSOLE, I CAN DETERMINE THE VOLUME.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  CAN YOU GIVE US FROM THE PICTURES AN
ESTIMATE AS TO TERMS OF SMALL OR LARGE THE KIND OF VOLUME THAT
WOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAKE THOSE KINDS OF SMEARS THAT YOU OBSERVED
IN THE PHOTOGRAPH GIVEN THE LIMITATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DESCRIBED?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  VAGUE, NO FOUNDATION, SPECULATION,
CONJECTURE.
     THE COURT:  VAGUE, SMALL OR LARGE.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WELL, COULD THOSE SMEARS BE MADE WITH
LESS THAN 1 CC OF BLOOD?
     MR. SCHECK:  SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.  COULD BE MADE MUCH LESS THAN 1 CC.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  THANK YOU.
           NOW, TURNING TO WHAT IS 1357, THE BOARD "ENTITLED
BLOODSTAIN ON EVIDENCE BAG."
           DOCTOR, I WOULD ASK YOU TO COME OFF THE WITNESS STAND
AND DESCRIBE FOR US -- COULD YOU FIRST TELL US WHAT ARE THESE
PICTURES AND WHERE WERE THEY TAKEN?
     A     THIS BOARD CONSIST OF FOUR PICTURES WHICH WAS TAKEN
FEBRUARY 18, 1995, WHILE I WAS IN ALBANY MEDICAL CENTER, EXAM
SOME EVIDENCE SENT TO ME BY LAPD.
     Q     THE PICTURE ON THE UPPER LEFT-HAND CORNER OF THIS
BOARD ENTITLED "BLOODSTAINS ON OUTSIDE OF PAPER BAG, ITEM 78,
BOOTS," WHAT DOES THAT SHOW?
     A     THIS IS A VIEW OF A PORTION OF THE BROWN PAPER BAG
WHICH HAVE A LABELING, NUMBERING OUTSIDE OF THE INITIAL "CY," AND
SOME LETTERING.  IT DESCRIBE TO ME THIS BAG --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  SEEMS TO CALL FOR HEARSAY.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           ASK A QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           BASED ON THE NUMBERS THERE AND THE PROPERTY REPORT
RECORDS YOU HAD, WHAT ITEM DID THIS BAG CORRELATE WITH?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  ITEM 78, BOOT.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  RON GOLDMAN'S BOOTS?
     A     YES.
     Q     WHAT ARE THE -- WHAT OBSERVATIONS CAN YOU MAKE BASED
ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
     A     THIS PHOTOGRAPH AT THE OPENING OF THIS PAPER BAG NEAR
THE LETTERING A-774, HERE I SEE A CONTACT SMEAR APPROXIMATELY
FOUR INCHES LONG.  THE RULER WHERE INDICATES SHOWS THE LENGTH OF
THIS CONTACT SMEAR (INDICATING).
     Q     WHAT IS THE PHOTOGRAPH ON THE BOTTOM LEFT-HAND SIDE
HERE?
     A     BOTTOM LEFT-HAND SIDE SHOWS A CLOSE-UP VIEW OF THIS
CONTACT SMEAR AREA.
     Q     THE PHOTOGRAPH -- I'M SORRY.
           IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT WE SHOULD OBSERVE ABOUT
THE CLOSE-UP OF THIS WHAT YOU HAVE CALLED -- WHY DO YOU CALL THIS
"WET BLOOD TRANSFERS"?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION FOR THAT.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           THE BOARD CONTAINS THE PHRASE "WET BLOOD TRANSFERS"
IN RELATION TO THIS PICTURE.  COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT?
     A     WHEN I EXAM THIS STAIN CAREFULLY, IT'S A CONTACT
SMEAR MADE OF BLOOD.  THIS BLOOD HAS TO BE IN WET STAGE TO GET
TRANSFER.  ONCE IT DRY, YOU CANNOT TRANSFER ANYMORE.  SO THAT'S
WHY I REFER A CLOSE-UP VIEW OF A WET BLOOD TRANSFER.
     Q     AND LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS. YOU'RE SAYING
THAT WHAT HAS TO BE WET IN ORDER TO CAUSE THIS KIND OF TRANSFER
STAIN?
     A     YES, SIR.
     Q     THE OBJECT THAT IS MAKING --
     A     THE OBJECT, THE SURFACE OF ITEMS ON EITHER A GLOVE OR
ANY OBJECT HAVE SOME WET BLOOD TOUCH THIS BROWN PAPER BAG CAUSE
THIS TRANSFER WITH THE MOTION.
     Q     AND WHAT IS THE PHOTOGRAPH ON THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND
CORNER OF THIS BOARD ENTITLED, "BLOODSTAINS INSIDE PAPER BAG,
ITEM 78?" WHAT DOES THAT REPRESENT?
     A     THE PAPER BAG WHEN I LOOK AT THE INSIDE, I SEE WET
TRANSFER INSIDE OF THE BAG.  THE MECHANISM OF THIS TRANSFER
REMAINS THE SAME.  HAS TO BE A WET SURFACE, WET OBJECT WITH SOME
WET BLOOD -- I'M SORRY -- A SURFACE OBJECT WITH SOME WET BLOOD
CONTACT THIS BROWN PAPER BAG CAUSE SUCH TRANSFER.
     Q     AND WHAT IS THE PICTURE, THE LOWER RIGHT HAND THAT
SAYS CLOSE-UP WET BLOOD TRANSFERS?
     A     THE CLOSE-UP SHOWS SOME OF THE BLOOD HAS SOAKED
THROUGH OTHER SIDE TO THE EXTERIOR SURFACE.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           NOW, IS IT A GOOD PROCEDURE TO PUT AN OBJECT SUCH AS
A BOOT THAT IS STILL WET WITH BLOOD INSIDE A PAPER BAG?
     MR. SCHECK:  ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  I CANNOT SAY WHAT LAPD PROCEDURE.  I DID NOT
REVIEW IT.  I'VE NOT COME HERE TO CRITICIZE ANYBODY.  MY OWN
PROCEDURE, IF I COLLECT, I DON'T PUT AN OBJECT WET.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND WHY WOULDN'T YOU PUT A WET OBJECT
INTO SUCH A PAPER BAG?
     A     BECAUSE A TRANSFER, YOU CHANGE THE PATTERN.  IF AN
OBJECT HAVE TWO OR THREE DIFFERENT TYPE OF BLOOD GROUPING,
BECAUSE THIS TRANSFER, NOW YOU MAY RESOLVE SOME FALSE READING.
     Q     IS THAT -- COULD CREATE MIXTURES?
     A     YES.
     Q     WHERE THERE WEREN'T ORIGINALLY MIXTURES?
     A     YES.
     Q     IS THAT WHAT'S SOMETIMES KNOWN AS
CROSS-CONTAMINATION?
     A     YES.
     MR. SCHECK:  I THINK WE'RE FINISHED WITH THIS BOARD.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DOCTOR --
     THE COURT:  MR. SCHECK, YOU PUT UP ANOTHER BOARD?
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.  THIS WOULD BE 13 --
     THE COURT:  58.
     MR. SCHECK:  -- 58, AND THIS BOARD IS ENTITLED, "HISTORY OF
ITEM 47 BLOOD DROP ON BUNDY WALKWAY."

            (DEFT'S 1358 FOR ID = BOARD)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, DR. LEE, COULD YOU PLEASE
DESCRIBE FOR US THIS BOARD STARTING WITH THE PICTURE ON THE UPPER
LEFT-HAND SIDE ENTITLED, "ITEM 47 OVERALL VIEW."
           WHAT IS THAT PHOTOGRAPH?  WHAT DOES IT SHOW?
     A     ITEMS 47, OVERALL VIEW, IS A CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPH
TAKEN BY LAPD PHOTOGRAPHER SUBSEQUENTLY PROVIDE TO ME BY DEFENSE
TEAM WHICH DEPICTS OVERALL VIEW OF WALKWAY WITH SOME NUMBER PLATE
INDICATE CERTAIN LOCATIONS.
     Q     THE PHOTOGRAPH IMMEDIATELY TO THE RIGHT, WHAT IS
THAT?
     A     THIS PHOTOGRAPH ALSO PROVIDE BY THE DEFENSE TEAM.  IT
SHOWS A CLOSE-UP VIEW OF THIS 112, PHOTO PLATE NO. 112.  THAT'S A
BLOOD-LIKE DROP ON THE WALKWAY, THE BUNDY WALKWAY.
     Q     NOW, ON THE BOTTOM LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THE BOARD, THERE
IS A WORK SHEET ENTITLED, "COLLECTION NOTE, JUNE 13TH, 1994."
           COULD YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT THIS IS?
     A     THIS IS A DOCUMENT WHICH PROVIDE BY YOU, INDICATES A
COLLECTION NOTE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WELL, NO FOUNDATION FOR PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE,
YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           WERE YOU PROVIDED THE COLLECTION NOTES MADE OUT BY
DENNIS FUNG AND ANDREA MAZZOLA AS WELL AS SEROLOGY NOTES MADE BY
COLLIN YAMAUCHI AS PART OF THE DISCOVERY PROCESS IN THIS CASE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  HEARSAY, CALLS FOR CONCLUSION, NO PERSONAL
KNOWLEDGE.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
           WERE YOU PROVIDED WITH SUCH DOCUMENTS?
     THE WITNESS:  YES, SIR.
     THE COURT:  NEXT QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS
COLLECTION NOTE OF JUNE 13TH --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION THROUGH THIS WITNESS.
     MR. SCHECK:  I THINK WE'VE ALREADY HAD TESTIMONY ON THIS,
YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT IS THIS NOTE?
     A     IT APPEAR TO BE A DOCUMENTATION WHICH SHOWS THE
COLLECTION, THE LOCATION OF EACH STAIN, WHERE THEY COLLECTED AND
ITEM NUMBER, PROPERTY ITEM NUMBER AND PHOTOGRAPH.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, WITH PERMISSION, I WOULD LIKE TO
TAKE ONE OF YELLOW MARKER TO JUST HIGHLIGHT ITEM 47 ON THIS
PARTICULAR NOTE.
     THE COURT:  YOU MAY.
     MR. SCHECK:  (INDICATING).
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, DOES THIS INDICATE -- WELL,
THIS PHOTOGRAPH OF, REFERRING NOW TO ITEM 47, CLOSE-UP PHOTO 112,
THIS DOES NOT CONTAIN AN ID PHOTO WITH SCALE AND ID?
     A     NO.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, THIS HAS BEEN GONE OVER.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.  THE PICTURE PRETTY MUCH SPEAKS FOR
ITSELF TOO, COUNSEL.
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WERE THE NUMBER OF SWATCHES USED TO
COLLECT THE STAIN COUNTED OR RECORDED ON THIS NOTE?
     A     NO.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.  IT'S NOT THERE, BUT WE WENT OVER
THIS ON CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MR. FUNG.
     MR. SCHECK:  I UNDERSTAND.  JUST MOVING ALONG AND
REFRESHING --
     THE COURT:  NO.  WE DON'T NEED TO REFRESH, COUNSEL.
     MR. SCHECK:  NO.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, IN YOUR OPINION, WOULD IT BE
YOUR PRACTICE, IF YOU WERE TO TAKE SWATCHES IN THIS FASHION, TO
COUNT AND RECORD THE NUMBER?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OBJECTION.  NOT RELEVANT.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  I ONLY CAN TESTIFY OUR PROCEDURE.  I'M NOT
HERE TO CRITICIZE ANYBODY ELSE PROCEDURE.  IT'S A GOOD PRACTICE
TO COUNT THE NUMBER.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND NOW CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO A
SEROLOGY NOTE OF JUNE 19TH, 1994 OF COLLIN YAMAUCHI AND CALL YOUR
ATTENTION TO THE ITEM 47.
           HAVE YOU REVIEWED THIS, DR. LEE?
     A     YES.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           AND ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE --
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT COUNSEL IS
HIGHLIGHTING THAT PORTION ON THAT LOWER RIGHT-HAND PHOTOGRAPH.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE DRAWINGS
MADE BY MR. YAMAUCHI OF THE SWATCHES HE FOUND IN THE BINDLE FOR
ITEM NO. 47 ON THE MORNING OF JUNE 14TH?
     A     YES.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           AND WITH RESPECT TO --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, THIS HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF
PREVIOUS TESTIMONY.  I OBJECT UNDER 352.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  AND NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.  I HAVEN'T HEARD THE QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WITH RESPECT TO THIS DIAGRAM ON THE
AREA INDICATING "SAMPLES REMAINING" --
     THE COURT:  DIAGRAM, COUNSEL?
     MR. SCHECK:  I'M SORRY?
     THE COURT:  YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MR. YAMAUCHI'S SEROLOGY
REPORT, CORRECT?
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
     THE COURT:  YOU SAID "DIAGRAM."
     MR. SCHECK:  I'M SORRY.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IN THE REPORT, THERE'S A BOX
INDICATING "SAMPLE REMAINING."
           ALL RIGHT?
     A     YES, SIR.
     Q     HOW MANY SWATCHES ARE INDICATED THERE AS REMAINING?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  SAME OBJECTION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.  THE DOCUMENT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF,
COUNSEL.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WELL, DOES THE DOCUMENT INDICATE THAT
SEVEN SWATCHES ARE REMAINING?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  LEADING.  SAME OBJECTIONS.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IN TERMS OF THE DIAGRAM ITSELF, HOW
MANY BOXES DO YOU SEE THERE?
     A     I COUNTED APPEAR TO BE EIGHT.
     Q     IS THERE A NOTATION HERE --
     MR. GOLDBERG   YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO ANY
FURTHER QUESTIONS ON THIS DOCUMENT.  IT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
     THE COURT:  SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, COUNSEL.
     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, YOUR HONOR, THIS IS FOUNDATION AND I'M
JUST MOVING ON.
     THE COURT:  COUNSEL, WE'VE SEEN IT.  YOU CROSS-EXAMINED MR.
YAMAUCHI EXTENSIVELY ON IT.  WHAT THIS WITNESS HAPPENS TO SEE
THERE, THE JURORS HAVE SEEN THE DOCUMENT, THE DOCUMENT IS HERE IN
FRONT OF THEM.
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
     THE COURT:  LET'S PROCEED.
     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, I'LL MOVE EXPEDITIOUSLY.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IS THERE ONE SECTION THERE INDICATING
THAT ONE OF THOSE SWATCHES WAS SAMPLED?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, THAT'S IMPROPER.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     MR. SCHECK:  NEXT BOARD, PLEASE.
           YOUR HONOR, CAN WE APPROACH FOR JUST A SECOND?
     THE COURT:  NOPE.  PROCEED.
     MR. SCHECK:  THIS BOARD WOULD BE 1359.  IT'S ENTITLED,
"HISTORY OF ITEM 47, BLOOD DROP ON BUNDY WALKWAY."

          (DEFT'S 1359 FOR ID = ITEM 47, BLOOD)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF
THIS BOARD, THERE'S A -- SOMETHING IN -- THERE'S A REPORT
INDICATING WORK SHEET BY MR. YAMAUCHI THAT'S ENTITLED "SEROLOGY
NOTE OF JULY 21ST, 1994."
           DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS AS A SUMMARY SHEET INDICATING A
TRANSFER OF SWATCHES?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THE DOCUMENT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT DOES IT INDICATE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION, CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           THE DOCUMENT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, COUNSEL.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           THERE'S A SECTION HERE INDICATING --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  SAME OBJECTION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  "DAYTIME SAMPLE PREPARED 7-1994,
SIZE, DESCRIPTION, PREPARED SAMPLE" AND A DIAGRAM OF FIVE
SWATCHES AND THEN THE NEXT BOX INDICATING DATE SENT JULY 24TH,
1994.
           DO YOU SEE THAT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, SAME OBJECTIONS. MAY WE
APPROACH?
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.  NO, NEITHER OF YOU.
           NOW, PROCEED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND THERE'S ANOTHER BOX HERE
INDICATING "SAMPLE REMAINING SIZE AND DESCRIPTION" AND THAT HAS
TWO SWATCHES, CORRECT?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION, CALLS FOR HEARSAY,
SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.  COUNSEL IS DIRECTING THE WITNESS'
ATTENTION TO A PARTICULAR PART OF THIS DOCUMENT.  I ASSUME
THERE'S A QUESTION COMING AFTER THIS.
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, NOW, ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE
OF THAT DIAGRAM, THERE'S A PICTURE, INDICATES FIVE SWATCHES, JULY
27TH, 1994, CELLMARK. DID YOU TAKE THAT PICTURE?
     A     YES.
     Q     COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES
THAT LED YOU TO TAKE THAT PICTURE?
     A     ON JULY 27TH, 1994, I HAVE A CALL ORDER, RECEIVE THAT
DOCUMENT BY THE DEFENSE TEAM TO APPEAR IN CELLMARK TO OBSERVE THE
TESTING AND TO REMOVE 10 PERCENT OF THE SAMPLE FROM EACH ITEM.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NARRATIVE.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT CELLMARK, DID YOU
HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THE SAMPLES UNPACKED?
     A     THIS PARTICULAR SAMPLE, YES.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PHOTOGRAPH THEM?
     A     YES.
     Q     AS THEY WERE UNPACKED?
     A     YES.
     Q     WHAT IS THAT PHOTOGRAPH WE SEE THERE?
     A     THIS PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS ON JULY 27 WHEN THIS SAMPLE,
NO. ITEM 47, WITH THE LETTER H UNPACKED, INSIDE CONTENTS, FIVE
SWATCHES.  SUBSEQUENTLY, WE LABEL TOGETHER WITH THE CELLMARK
SCIENTIST HA, HB, HC, HE AND HD TO INDICATE THIS H THAT'S FROM 47
AND FIVE SEPARATE SWATCHES, A, B, C, D, E.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY RECEIVE A PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS
TAKEN ON AUGUST 12TH, 1994 AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OF TWO
SWATCHES FROM ITEM 47 AND THE BINDLE IN WHICH IT ARRIVED?
     A     YES.
     Q     IS THAT DEPICTED AT THE BOTTOM RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF
THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
     A     THIS PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS A PORTION VIEW OF A MANILA
ENVELOPE WITH ITEM 47, HOWEVER, WITH A LETTER B AS IN BOY.
INSIDE CONTENTS, TWO SWATCHES.
     MR. SCHECK:  HAVE THE NEXT BOARD, PLEASE.
           THIS WOULD BE 1360.
           YOUR HONOR, JUST FOR THE RECORD, I'M GOING TO
HIGHLIGHT THE ITEM 47 ON THE WORK SHEET.
     THE COURT:  YES.
     MR. SCHECK: (INDICATING.)
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THIS WILL BE 1360.

          (DEFT'S 1360 FOR ID = BOARD)
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, DR. LEE, DO YOU HAVE -- YOU'RE
FAMILIAR WITH THE KINDS OF SWATCHES USED BY THE LOS ANGELES
POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR CREATING THE SWATCHES IN THIS CASE?
     A     YES.
     Q     HAVE YOU ACTUALLY EXAMINED SAMPLES OF SWATCHES
PROVIDED TO YOU BY THEM?
     A     YES.
     Q     ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE MATERIAL?
     A     YES.
     Q     DO YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE IN HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE ONE
OF THESE SWATCHES THAT HAD DISTILLED WATER AND BLOOD ON IT IN THE
FASHION DESCRIBED BY MISS MAZZOLA IN TERMS OF SWATCHING BLOOD?
DO YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE IN ASSESSING THE TIME IT TAKES SUCH A
SWATCH TO DRY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT.  MAY WE APPROACH?
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  I HAVE EXPERIENCE SWATCH, USE SIMILAR KIND OF
COTTON SWATCH MYSELF.  MY PEOPLE OR MY STUDENT, WE DETERMINE THE
TIME REQUIRED FOR A SWATCH TO DRY.  I DON'T KNOW WHAT MISS
MAZZOLA -- I DID NOT OBSERVE HER TO SWATCH IT.  SO I CANNOT SAY I
HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH HER.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  UH-HUH.
           NOW --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NONRESPONSIVE, YOUR HONOR. MOTION TO STRIKE.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, IN YOUR OPINION, HOW LONG WOULD
IT TAKE ONE OF THESE SWATCHES TO DRY IF IT WERE PUT INTO A TEST
TUBE IN A WET STATE AND THE TEST TUBE WAS OPEN AND THE TEST TUBE
-- AND THE ENVIRONMENT WAS A CABINET AT ROOM TEMPERATURE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, NO --
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           COUNSEL -- COUNSEL, COUNSEL, BE CAREFUL HERE.
     MR. SCHECK:  OKAY.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH?
     THE COURT:  NO.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IN YOUR OPINION, HOW LONG WOULD IT
TAKE --
     THE COURT:  TRY AGAIN.  MOVE ON.  MOVE ON. MOVE ON.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ASK YOU TO ASSUME THAT A SWATCH, A
WET BLOOD SWATCH WAS PUT INTO A TEST TUBE AND LEFT THERE FOR 12
HOURS, 10 TO 12 HOURS --
           I'LL WITHDRAW THAT QUESTION FOR THE TIME BEING.
           DR. LEE, I CALL YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO WHAT HAS BEEN
MARKED AS DEFENSE 1360, A BOARD ENTITLED, "HISTORY OF ITEM 47,
BLOOD DROP ON BUNDY WALKWAY, BLOOD SWATCHES AND BLOODSTAIN
PATTERNS OF WET TRANSFERS."
           DR. LEE, COULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH
IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS BOARD IS?
     A     THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS ON THE BOARD UPPER ROW
IS CELLMARK.  AT THAT TIME, WE PHOTOGRAPH THE FIVE SWATCHES.
     Q     AND WHAT IS THE PHOTOGRAPH IN THE LOWER LEFT-HAND
SIDE HERE?
     A     SECOND PHOTOGRAPH IS A CLOSE-UP VIEW OF THE DOJ
PHOTOGRAPH, SHOWS THE TWO SWATCHES.  IN ADDITION, THERE ARE SOME
REDDISH COLOR IMPRINT ON THIS SO-CALLED BINDLE, PAPER.  ACTUALLY
IT'S A PIECE OF PAPER.

           (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
            BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

      Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  INCIDENTALLY, DR. LEE, WHAT
PROCEDURES DO YOU USE TO DRY SWATCHES WITH BLOOD AND HOW LONG IN
YOUR EXPERIENCE DOES IT GENERALLY TAKE?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NOT RELEVANT UNDER KOURISH AND ALSO, YOUR
HONOR --
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, DR. LEE --
     THE COURT:  YOU CAN ASK HIM WHAT'S INDICATED BY THIS
PHOTOGRAPH.
     MR. SCHECK:  I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT, YOUR HONOR, BUT I
THINK -- WELL, WE'LL DISCUSS THIS LATER.
     THE COURT:  PROCEED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, DR. LEE, IN THE COURSE OF
REVIEWING DISCOVERY IN THIS MATTER, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO
REVIEW NOTES MADE BY GARY SIMS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WITH
-- WITH RESPECT TO HIS OBSERVATIONS OF ITEM NO. 47, THE BINDLE
AND THE SWATCHES THAT HE RECEIVED ON AUGUST 18TH, 1994?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  CALLS FOR HEARSAY, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.  THE FACT HE OBSERVED SOMETHING
DOESN'T CALL FOR HEARSAY.
           WANT AN ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, MR. SCHECK?
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.  I THOUGHT HE SAID YES.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
           THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  YOU ARE WELCOME.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND ARE THE NOTES THAT MR. SIMS MADE
WITH RESPECT TO HIS OBSERVATIONS THE KINDS OF MATERIALS THAT AN
EXPERT IN YOUR FIELD ORDINARILY RELIES UPON IN FORMING SCIENTIFIC
OPINIONS?
     A     YES.
     MR. SCHECK:  AND I'D LIKE TO --

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, FOR THE RECORD, I'LL ASK TO MARK
THESE TWO PAGES 1360-A, DOCUMENT OF TWO PAGES.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           1360-A.

         (DEFT'S 1360-A FOR ID = TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT)

     MR. GOLDBERG:  MAY I TAKE A LOOK AT THAT, YOUR HONOR?
     THE COURT:  SURE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  I THINK I'VE SEEN IT.  THERE'S SOME MARKINGS
ON THIS, YOUR HONOR.
     MR. SCHECK:  I'LL GET A REDACTED COPY FORM.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THANK YOU.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, I SHOW YOU THIS NOTE.
           NOW, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH IT?
     A     YES.
     MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           YOUR HONOR, WITH YOUR PERMISSION, I'D LIKE TO READ
THE NOTE AND ASK DR. LEE IF THE OBSERVATIONS HERE ARE CONSISTENT
WITH WHAT HE SEES IN THE PHOTOGRAPH.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WELL, DOES -- DO THESE NOTES REFLECT
OBSERVATIONS BY MR. SIMS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU SEE IN
THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  CALLS FOR CONCLUSION.  SAME OBJECTION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           IS THERE A RECORD HERE OF THE WET TRANSFER THAT YOU
JUST POINTED OUT TO THE JURY AND A DESCRIPTION OF IT?
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.  SUSTAINED.  THAT'S HEARSAY.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ON THE SECOND PAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT,
DOES MR. SIMS INDICATE WITH RESPECT TO ITEM 49 --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, SAME OBJECTION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           MR. COCHRAN.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  I CALL YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO THE
PHOTOGRAPH ENTITLED, "NEW HAVEN," ON THIS BOARD.  COULD YOU
PLEASE DESCRIBE WHAT THAT IS?
     A     THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I TOOK AT NEW HAVEN ON
APRIL 2ND, 1995 WHEN FINALLY THE ORIGINAL BINDLE, SO-CALLED
BINDLE -- ACTUALLY IT'S A PAPER PACKET -- SENT TO ME.  I
PHOTOGRAPH THAT.  SHOWS ONE SWATCH LEFT.
     Q     NOW, I ASK YOU TO EXAMINE THIS PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I'D
LIKE TO MARK 13 --
     THE COURT:  60.
     MR. SCHECK:  60-C.  SMALL PHOTOGRAPH.
     THE COURT:  WHAT WAS B?
     MR. SCHECK:  I THINK A WERE THE TWO PIECES OF PAPER FOR MR.
SIMS, AND I'D ASK THAT THIS PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED AS B.
     THE COURT:  B.

         (DEFT'S 1360-B FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

     THE COURT:  MADAM REPORTER, HOW'S YOUR PAPER SUPPLY?
     THE COURT REPORTER:  FINE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, WHAT IS 1360-B?
     A     1360-B IS A PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I TOOK, SHOWS THE
INTERIOR SURFACE OF THIS PAPER PACKET OR BINDLE WHICH, WITH MY
RULER, INDICATES THE PRESENCE OF SOME WET TRANSFER IMPRINTS.
     MR. SCHECK:  WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, I'D LIKE TO PUT
THIS UP FOR A MINUTE ON THE ELMO.
     THE COURT:  YES.

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

     THE COURT:  I THINK WE'RE SLIGHTLY OUT OF FOCUS THERE, MR.
HARRIS.
           THANK YOU.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, I'D ASK THAT THE WITNESS BE
ALLOWED TO USE THE TELESTRATOR AND FOCUS ON THE TWO ON THE TOP.
     THE COURT:  PUT AN ARROW ON THE ITEMS HE NOTES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, USING THE TELESTRATOR, COULD
YOU POINT OUT THE STAINS OF INTEREST AND PLEASE DIRECT MR. HARRIS
ON --
     A     BASICALLY SHOWS THE FOUR TRANSFER IMPRINT.
     MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           COULD WE PRINT THIS OUT AS 1360 --
     THE COURT:  C.
     MR. SCHECK:  C.

          (DEFT'S 1360-C FOR ID = PRINTOUT)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           LET'S CLEAR THE TELESTRATOR.
           MR. SCHECK.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, YOU'VE NOW FOCUSED IN ON TWO
OF THESE TRANSFERS.  COULD YOU PLEASE IDENTIFY THEM AND DESCRIBE
THEM?
     A     THE FIRST ONE APPEARS TO BE A PARALLELOGRAM, A
PATTERN OF TRANSFER.  THE SECOND ONE IS CONSISTENT WITH A SQUARE
SHAPE TRANSFER.
     MR. SCHECK:  CAN WE PRINT THIS OUT AS 1360-D?
     THE COURT:  AS IN DAVID.
     MR. SCHECK:  AS IN DAVID.

        (DEFT'S 1360-D FOR ID = PRINTOUT)

     THE COURT:  GO AHEAD, MR. SCHECK.
     MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
     THE COURT:  IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG TO CAPTURE IT.  IT JUST
TAKES LONGER TO PRINT IT OUT.
     MR. SCHECK:  NO.  I UNDERSTAND.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     MR. SCHECK:  HE SAYS I CAN'T MOVE IT YET.

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

     MR. SCHECK:  MOVE TO THE OTHER SIDE, PLEASE.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, WHAT IS THIS?
     A     HERE IS ANOTHER PARALLELOGRAM TRANSFER IMPRINT.  HERE
APPEARS TO BE A DOUBLE TRIANGLE TRANSFER IMPRINT (INDICATING).
     MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           CAN WE PRINT THAT OUT AS 1360-E.
     THE COURT:  E AS IN EDWARD.

       (DEFT'S 1360-E FOR ID = PRINTOUT)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, DR. LEE -- NOW, DR. LEE, I TAKE
IT THAT THE PICTURE IN 1360 THAT YOU MADE OF SWATCHES AT CELLMARK
>FROM THE PICTURE THAT YOU TOOK IN NEW HAVEN AS IS REFLECTED BY
1360-A, THE ONE THAT WE HAD UP ON THE ELMO, BOTH HAVE RULERS?
     A     YES.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           AND BY MEANS OF THAT AS A SCALE, WERE YOU ABLE TO DO
ENLARGEMENTS OF -- AND I SHOULD -- WITHDRAW -- AND ALSO THE
PICTURE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE I SEE HAS A RULER.
     A     YES.
     Q     AND BY MEANS OF USING THOSE RULERS AS SCALES, WERE
YOU ABLE TO DO ENLARGEMENTS OF THE SWATCHES DEPICTED IN THIS
BOARD AND ALSO THE BINDLE THAT YOU SAW IN NEW HAVEN?
     A     YES.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO NOW MOVE TO THE
NEXT BOARD.

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

     MR. SCHECK:  THIS WILL BE 1361.
     THE COURT:  SO MARKED.

           (DEFT'S 1361 FOR ID = BOARD)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  "HISTORY OF ITEM 47, BLOOD DROP ON
BUNDY WALKWAY."
           DR. LEE, WHAT IS THIS?
     A     UH, BEFORE WE --
     THE WITNESS:  YOUR HONOR, I HAVE -- I MADE A MISTAKE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           WHY DON'T YOU TALK TO MR. SCHECK BRIEFLY.
     THE WITNESS:  MARCH 9TH --
     THE COURT:  WAIT.
           EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL.
           MR. SCHECK, WHY DON'T YOU CONFER WITH YOUR WITNESS
FOR A MOMENT.

           (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
            BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
            THE WITNESS.)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, YOU JUST INDICATED THAT YOU
MADE AN ERROR IN YOUR DISCUSSION. COULD YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE WHAT
THAT IS?
     A     JUST NOW, I APPEAR SAY APRIL 6TH, 1995. IF MY MEMORY
SERVE ME CORRECTLY, THAT'S INCORRECT. SHOULD BE MARCH 9, 1995 IN
NEW HAVEN.
     Q     WHAT DOES THIS BOARD REPRESENT, THE PHOTOGRAPHS HERE?
     A     THIS SHOWS THE DATE WHICH WHEN THE BINDLE SHIPPED TO
ME BY JOHNNIE COCHRAN'S OFFICE.  I OPEN UP THE BINDLE, PAPER
PACKET.  INSIDE HAVE A SMALL PAPER PACKET, CONTENTS, ONE SWATCH.
WET TRANSFER WAS NOTICED.  SO I TOOK A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPH TO
SHOW THIS WET TRANSFER.
     Q     AND ONE OF THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS WAS THE ONE WE PUT UP ON
THE ELMO BEFORE?
     A     YES.  THIS IS THE TOP ONE.
     THE COURT:  I'M SORRY, COUNSEL.  WHICH PHOTOGRAPH?
     MR. SCHECK:  HE'S INDICATING THAT 1360 --
     THE COURT:  NO, I UNDERSTAND.  IS ONE OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS WE
PUT UP ON THE ELMO?
     MR. SCHECK:  I'M ABOUT TO SAY.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  1360-C IS A CLOSE-UP OF BLOOD
PATTERNS OF WET TRANSFER THAT IS REFLECTED ON THIS EXHIBIT IN THE
UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER AND IS SO LABELED?
     A     YES, SIR.
     Q     AND THAT IS THE PHOTOGRAPH WITH THE RULER?
     A     YES.
     Q     NOW --
     MR. SCHECK:  I THINK WE CAN MOVE TO THE NEXT BOARD.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, ON THIS BOARD, I'M GOING TO
OBJECT SUBJECT TO A MOTION TO STRIKE FOR ACCURATELY BLOWING UP
THE PHOTOGRAPH.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     MR. SCHECK:  NOW, I WOULD LIKE THIS BOARD MARKED AS 13 --
     THE COURT:  62.
     MR. SCHECK:  62.

           (DEFT'S 1362 FOR ID = BOARD)

     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND, DR. LEE, WHAT IS THAT -- THIS?
     A     THIS IS A FURTHER ENLARGEMENT OF THE PHOTOGRAPH JUST
DEPICTS IN THE PREVIOUS EXHIBIT, THE TOP ONE OF THE SECOND
COLUMN.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           AND, DR. LEE, I'M GOING TO MARK A SERIES OF -- HAVE
SEVEN BROWN PHOTOGRAPHS, EACH SEPARATE, AND ASK YOU TO TELL US
WHAT THESE ARE, AND FIRST JUST GENERALLY, AND THEN WE'LL MARK
THEM INDIVIDUALLY.
           WHAT ARE THESE IN GENERAL?
     A     THIS IN GENERAL STAINS, SEVEN PIECES OF ENLARGEMENT
OF BLOOD SWATCHES, ONE SET LABEL HA THROUGH E, FIVE OF THEM, HA,
HB, HC, HD, HE.
     Q     ARE THOSE BLOW-UPS OF PICTURES THAT WE SAW IN THE
TRAY THAT HAD THE SAME MARKINGS, THE ONE PICTURE YOU TOOK AT
CELLMARK?
     A     CELLMARK, YES.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  ALSO OBJECT, SUBJECT TO MOTION TO STRIKE,
SAME GROUND AS TO THE BLOW-UPS.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
           PROCEED.
     MR. SCHECK:  WASN'T THAT SUPPOSED TO BE DONE AT ANOTHER
TIME?
     THE COURT:  PROCEED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT ARE THE OTHER TWO?
     A     THE OTHER TWO IS THE ENLARGEMENT, SAME SCALE, SAME
PROPORTION, THE TWO SWATCHES FROM DOJ, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
PHOTO.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, THESE I WOULD ASK THEN TO MARK --
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IS THIS BOARD A MAGNIFIED BOARD, DR.
LEE?
     A     YES.
     Q     ARE THOSE BLOW-UPS OF THE SWATCHES ALSO MAGNIFIED?
     A     YES.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, THE -- ON THE BACK OF THE
MAGNIFIED SWATCHES ARE LABELS HA, HB, HC, HD AND HE THAT
CORRESPOND WITH THE CELLMARK SWATCHES.  SO I'D ASK THAT THOSE BE
LABELED --
     THE COURT:  WE'LL DO 1362-HA, HB, HC, ET CETERA.
     MR. SCHECK:  OKAY.
     THE COURT:  SO THAT WE'LL KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
     MR. SCHECK:  THANK YOU.
           AND THEN THE REMAINING TWO SWATCHES --
     THE COURT:  ARE THESE DOJ?
     MR. SCHECK:  THE DOJ SWATCHES.
     THE COURT:  DOJ 1 AND DOJ 2.
     MR. SCHECK:  OKAY.  JUST GET A --
     THE COURT:  1362 DOJ 1 AND DOJ 2.

 (DEFT'S 1362-HA THROUGH HE,
  DOJ 1 AND DOJ 2 FOR ID = BLOW-UP PHOTOGRAPHS)

     MR. SCHECK:  AND THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT I'M -- I'M JUST
GOING TO LAY THEM OUT FOR A SECOND, YOUR HONOR, IF I MIGHT ON THE
JURY BOX SO THAT THE JURY CAN SEE THE LABELS ON THE BACK.
     THE COURT:  THE LABELS ON THE BACK?  NO.  THE LABELS AREN'T
RELEVANT FOR THE JURORS.
     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, THE HA, B, C.
           ALL RIGHT.
     THE COURT:  WE'LL NEED SOME FOUNDATION AS TO SCALE AND
CORRELATION, COUNSEL.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, COULD YOU DESCRIBE THE
PROCESS BY WHICH THE SWATCHES AND THIS BOARD WERE ENLARGED?
     A     YOU ALL HAVE A RULER.  THE RED RULER IS MY RULER.
THAT TAKE SO-CALLED 16-INCH RULER.  SO BASICALLY YOU CAN LOOK AT
THIS.  THIS IS A METRIC SYSTEM, AND ONE MILLIMETER IS EQUIVALENT
NOW TO 18 MILLIMETER.  THAT'S THE RULER ENLARGEMENT.  SO THE REST
OF A PATTERN IS ENLARGED WITH THAT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, FOR THE RECORD, DR. LEE PRODUCED
ONE OF HIS RULERS.  COULD WE MARK THAT AS AN EXHIBIT?
     THE COURT:  YES.  WE'LL MAKE THAT 1362, RULER.

         (DEFT'S 1362 RULER FOR ID = RULER)

     THE COURT:  I TAKE IT THIS IS ONE OF YOUR SOUVENIR RULERS?
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     THE COURT:  THANK YOU.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  AND ALSO FOR THE RECORD -- I DON'T KNOW IF
THIS WAS REFLECTED -- HE WAS USING THIS RULER TO MEASURE THE
ENLARGEMENT.
     THE COURT:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND WERE THE SWATCHES ENLARGED IN THE
SAME FASHION?
     A     I DID NOT ENLARGE THOSE MYSELF.
     Q     DID YOU DIRECT THAT THEY BE ENLARGED ON A ONE TO ONE?
     A     YES.
     Q     NOW --
     A     WHAT YOUR QUESTION?  ONE TO ONE?
     Q     WHAT WAS YOUR DIRECTION WITH RESPECT TO THESE?
     A     I SAY ENLARGED WITH THE SAME SCALE, SAME PROPORTION.
     Q     NOW, DR. LEE, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE NATURE
OF THESE WET TRANSFER PATTERNS THAT ARE DEPICTED ON 1362?
     A     THOSE -- THE MECHANISM OF THIS TRANSFER IS RELATIVE
STRAIGHTFORWARD AND SIMPLE.  A WET SWATCH HAVE TO CONTACT THIS
SURFACE CAUSE SUCH A TRANSFER. IT'S NO ALTERNATIVE.  THAT'S
SCIENTIFIC FACT.  WE SEE SOME TRANSFER.  THAT'S CALLED MECHANISM.
AS FAR AS MANNERS, THEY MAY HAVE DIFFERENT EXPLANATION.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  AT THIS POINT, NO QUESTION PENDING.
     THE COURT:  NEXT QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           DR. LEE, HAVE YOU MADE AN EFFORT USING THESE SWATCHES
AND LOOKING AT THE TRANSFER PATTERNS TO SEE IF YOU CAN MATCH UP
THE SWATCHES TO THE PATTERNS?  AND COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR
ANALYSIS.
     A     WE HAVE SEVEN SWATCHES, APPEAR TO BE FOUR PATTERNS.
HOWEVER, WE DO SEE SOME OF THE PATTERN APPEAR TO EITHER HAVE A
MOVEMENT OR SOME ADDITION. BUT WE DON'T HAVE ALL SEVEN.
     Q     EXCUSE ME.  WHEN YOU SAY, "ALL SEVEN," YOU MEAN YOU
DON'T HAVE SEVEN --
     A     I DON'T HAVE SEVEN PERFECT PATTERN, TRANSFER PATTERN.
I HAVE SEVEN SWATCHES.  ONE OF THOSE PATTERN APPEAR TO BE A
MIRROR IMAGE OF EACH OTHER.  THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH A
PARALLELOGRAM WHICH ALMOST FIT OF ONE OF THESE SWATCHES.
     MR. SCHECK:  ONE SECOND, PLEASE.
           THE RECORD WILL REFLECT THAT DR. LEE HAS POINTED TO
THE PATTERN ON THE UPPER LEFT-HAND SIDE OF 1362, A PATTERN ON THE
UPPER RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF 1362 AND HE IS HANDLING A SWATCH THAT IS
LABELED "HE."
     THE WITNESS:  HE.
     THE COURT:  AND BECAUSE IT'S MAGNIFIED, HE'S PLACED IT OVER
THAT PATTERN.  YES.
     THE WITNESS:  YOU CAN FIT HERE.  IF THIS PORTION OF THE
PAPER TOUCH THIS ONE, BECAUSE THIS SIDE GOING TO FIT ON THIS
SIDE.  SO THAT'S WHY WE REFER A COPY OR MIRROR IMAGE.  THE NEXT
ONE I CAN SEE COPY FIT IS THIS ONE, ONLY PORTION FIT THIS CORNER,
BUT THE OTHER SIDE MAY BE SOME REASON DID NOT HAVE A DIRECT
CONTACT SO THAT THIS ONE IS A COPY (INDICATING).
     MR. SCHECK:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT DR. LEE HAS BEEN
REFERRING HERE TO THE SWATCH LABELED "HD" AND IS REFERRING TO THE
TRANSFER PATTERN ON THE LEFT SIDE OF 1362, BUT IS LOWER THAN THE
OTHER ONE WE PREVIOUSLY REFERRED TO.
     THE COURT:  WHY DON'T WE MARK THESE 1 THROUGH 4 GOING LEFT
TO RIGHT.  THAT WILL BE EASIER IF WE DO THAT FOR THE RECORD.
     MR. SCHECK:  OKAY.
     THE COURT:  WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A MARKER AND JUST HAVE DR.
LEE NUMBER THEM 1 THROUGH 4 STARTING AT THE LEFT.
     THE WITNESS:  FURTHER LEFT-HAND SIDE ONE, WE MARK WITH 1,
2, 3, 4 (INDICATING).
     THE COURT:  MR. SCHECK.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           DR. LEE, YOU WERE ABOUT TO, BEFORE I INTERRUPTED YOU,
MOVE ON TO THE NEXT SWATCH AND PATTERN.
     A     I THINK WE LOST ONE SWATCH.
     Q     THIS WAS HD, THE ONE YOU WERE JUST REFERRING TO.
     A     AS I EXPLAIN EARLIER, 1 AND 4 COULD BE A MIRROR
IMAGE.  2 MAY BE EXPLAINABLE.  3, IF YOU LOOK CAREFULLY, MAY BE
-- THE VIEW IS NOT TOO GOOD, BUT YOU LOOK CAREFULLY, APPEAR TO BE
A DOUBLE IMAGE WITH A TRIANGLE SHAPE.
           SO THE ONLY TRIANGLE I HAVE IS THIS HB. HOWEVER, THIS
TRIANGLE IS MUCH BIGGER THAN THIS TRIANGLE UNLESS THIS TRIANGLE
FOLDED IN CERTAIN CONDITION, WHICH I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT.
THE REST OF 4, I CAN'T FIND ANYPLACE TO FIT BY LOOKING AT
PATTERN, LOOKING AT THE SHAPE AND THE NUMBER UNLESS HAVE OTHER
TYPE OF EXPLANATION (INDICATING).
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           MR. SCHECK, I'M SORRY.  FORGIVE ME FOR INTERRUPTING
YOU AT THIS TIME.  WE HAVE A REQUEST FOR A COMFORT BREAK.  SO
WE'LL STAY IN PLACE, AND ANY JURORS WHO NEED TO TAKE A QUICK
COMFORT BREAK, GO AHEAD RIGHT NOW.
     MR. SCHECK:  YOUR HONOR, COULD WE TAKE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO
APPROACH QUICKLY.
     THE COURT:  NO.

           (BRIEF PAUSE.)

           (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE
             BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           MISS LONG, DO WE HAVE EVERYBODY BACK?
     THE BAILIFF:  YES, WE DO.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           ALL RIGHT.  THE RECORD WILL REFLECT WE'RE ALL
COMFORTABLE.
           MR. SCHECK.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  NOW, DR. LEE, HAVE YOU HAD EXPERIENCE
OVER THE YEARS DEALING WITH SWATCHES OF THIS NATURE?
     A     YES.
     Q     DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SWATCHES
OF THIS SIZE, MOISTENED WITH BLOOD AND DISTILLED WATER, WOULD BE
DRY IF LEFT IN A TEST TUBE FOR MORE THAN FIVE HOURS?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  INADEQUATE FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           DR. LEE, WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH DRYING OF
SWATCHES OF THIS NATURE?
     A     EVENTUALLY SWATCH GOING TO DRY.
     THE COURT:  NEXT QUESTION.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NONRESPONSIVE.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  SPECIFICALLY, WHAT EXPERIENCE,
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE IN OBSERVING AND NOTING THE
DRYING OF SWATCHES OF THIS NATURE?  COULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT
EXPERIENCE FOR US?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  VAGUE AS TO "EXPERIENCE."
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  A DROP OF STAIN, BLOODSTAIN FOUND ON A
SURFACE, IF THE STAIN ALREADY DRY, IF YOU TRY TO TRANSFER IT TO A
SWATCH, YOU HAVE TO WET THE SWATCH.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THIS IS NONRESPONSIVE, YOUR HONOR.  I DON'T
THINK THE WITNESS UNDERSTANDS.
     MR. SCHECK:  I THINK HE'S --
     THE COURT:  STATE ANOTHER QUESTION.
           THE ISSUE IS THIS WITNESS' PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH
BLOOD SWATCHING USING SWATCHES OF THIS TECHNIQUE, THIS PARTICULAR
SIZE AND TYPE, HANDLING, PACKAGING, ET CETERA.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, DO YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH
THE USE OF WETTING SWATCHES OF THIS NATURE, SWATCHING BLOODSTAINS
AND THEN OBSERVING HOW LONG IT TAKES THEM TO DRY?
     A     YES.
     Q     COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR US YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THAT
REGARD?
     A     GENERALLY APPROXIMATELY THREE HOURS SHOULD BE DRY.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, NONRESPONSIVE.
     THE COURT:  THE ANSWER IS STRICKEN.  THE JURY IS TO
DISREGARD.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  HAVE YOU DONE THAT?  HAVE YOU
OBSERVED OTHERS DO THAT?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  VAGUE.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     THE COURT:  ANSWER WILL STAND.
           NEXT QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           AND WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THAT AND OBSERVED OTHERS DO
THAT, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE SWATCHES OF THIS NATURE TO DRY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, SAME OBJECTION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           INADEQUATE FOUNDATION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           WHEN I SAY "DO THAT" --
     THE COURT:  MR. SCHECK, WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN, PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE SWATCHING, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN THE DRYING PROCESS,
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE THEN HAVING DRIED THEM, THEN PACKAGING THEM,
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, NUMBER OF YEARS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MAY I TAKE THE WITNESS ON VOIR DIRE VERY
BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR, ON THIS ISSUE?
     THE COURT:  YES, YOU MAY.
     MR. SCHECK:  WELL, CAN I ASK SOME QUESTIONS BEFORE HE DOES
THAT?
     THE COURT:  I'LL OVERRULE MYSELF.
           MR. SCHECK, PROCEED.  BUT THAT'S MY AREA OF INTEREST
AT THIS POINT.
     MR. SCHECK:  I UNDERSTAND.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, HAVE YOU HAD EXPERIENCE
USING SWATCHES OF THIS KIND TO COLLECT BLOODSTAINS?
     A     YES.
     Q     WHAT IS IT?
     A     OVER THE YEAR, I COLLECT NUMEROUS STAIN, ESPECIALLY
EARLY DAYS, WE DON'T -- WE HAVE TO DO ELECTROPHORESIS OF BLOOD
GROUPING.  WE GENERALLY USE A SWATCH METHOD.  NOWADAY, WE DON'T
USE THAT ANYMORE.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           AND IN THOSE DAYS WHEN YOU USED THE SWATCH METHOD,
WHAT WOULD YOU DO AND WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE IN COLLECTING THE
SWATCH, DRYING IT AND PUTTING IT IN PAPER MATERIAL?
     A     WE HAVE TO LET THE SWATCH DRY AND TRANSFER TO A PAPER
PACKET AND PRESERVE IT.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           HAVE YOU HAD EXPERIENCE IN PUTTING SWATCHES THAT WERE
NOT DRY ON TOP OF PAPER SURFACES SUCH AS THIS?
     A     YES.
     Q     AND WHAT RESULTS WHEN THE SWATCHES ARE NOT DRY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MAY I TAKE THE WITNESS BRIEFLY ON VOIR DIRE?
     THE COURT:  NO.
           PROCEED.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  JUST FOR A FEW MOMENTS?
     THE COURT:  HE'S IN THE PROCESS OF LAYING THE FOUNDATION,
COUNSEL.  HE'S NOT GIVING AN OPINION YET.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  HE JUST ASKED FOR ONE.
     MR. SCHECK:  NO.  I JUST SAID WHAT HAPPENS --
     THE COURT:  COUNSEL, PLEASE LISTEN TO ME.  LAY THE
FOUNDATION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
A WET SWATCH IS LAID ON A PIECE OF PAPER SUCH AS THIS?
     A     GOING TO CAUSE A TRANSFER.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           DO YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH HOW LONG IT TAKES A
SWATCH SUCH AS THE KIND USED HERE AND SUCH AS THE KIND YOU'VE
USED BEFORE TO DRY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  VAGUE AS TO WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT IS THAT EXPERIENCE AND WHAT ARE
THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  WELL, IT'S COMPOUND.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
           REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE?
     A     MY EXPERIENCE --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  CALLS FOR CONCLUSION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  NO FOUNDATION TO EXPLAIN HIS EXPERIENCE?
           OVERRULED.
           DR. LEE, WHAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE HANDLING SWATCHES,
DRYING THEM, PACKAGING THEM?
     THE WITNESS:  OKAY.
           I HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE HANDLING, DRYING AND
PACKAGING.  IF A WET SWATCH DID NOT DRY, IF YOU PUT THE PAPER
PACKET, GOING TO HAVE A TRANSFER.  SWATCH WILL TAKE A WHILE TO
DRY.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, THIS IS NONRESPONSIVE.
     THE COURT:  HOW DO YOU DRY THEM, DOCTOR?
     THE WITNESS:  I DRIED IN THE OPEN AIR.  I ALSO DRIED IN THE
TEST TUBE OR DRY IN A OPEN BLOOD BENCH WITH A COVER OR CABINET.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT IS THE RANGE OF TIME IT TAKES IN
YOUR EXPERIENCE FOR SUCH SWATCHES TO DRY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  DOCTOR, AFTER YOU PUT A SWATCH IN A TEST TUBE
TO DRY, I TAKE IT YOU LEAVE IT FOR A PERIOD OF TIME?
     THE WITNESS:  YES, SIR.
     THE COURT:  IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, HOW LONG IN YOUR PROCEDURE
DO YOU LEAVE THOSE SWATCHES IN TEST TUBES TO DRY?
     THE WITNESS:  WE GENERALLY LEAVE OVERNIGHT.
     THE COURT:  NEXT QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND WHEN YOU LEAVE OVERNIGHT, WHAT IS
THE RESULT IN THE MORNING?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  IT DRY.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  AND WHEN WE'RE TALKING OVERNIGHT,
WHAT RANGE OF HOURS?
     A     USUALLY BETWEEN EIGHT TO 10, 12 HOURS.
     Q     ALL RIGHT.
           NOW, DR. LEE, GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH HOW LONG IT
TAKES SWATCHES TO DRY, LET ME ASK YOU TO ASSUME THAT THE SWATCHES
IN QUESTION HERE WERE PUT INTO TEST TUBE AT AROUND 6:30 ON THE
EVENING OF JUNE 13TH AND THEN REMOVED AND PLACED IN A BINDLE, AT
THE EARLIEST, 7:30 A.M. THE NEXT MORNING.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WOULD YOU EXPECT THOSE SWATCHES TO BE
DRY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  YES.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  GIVEN THAT, DR. LEE, HOW CAN YOU
EXPLAIN THE WET TRANSFER PATTERNS YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED ON THE
BINDLE FROM ITEM 47?
     MR. SCHECK:  CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WHAT IS YOUR OPINION AS TO THE
MECHANISM OF TRANSFER THAT YOU --
     THE COURT:  THAT CREATED THESE BLOODSTAINS.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  -- THAT CREATED THESE BLOODSTAINS?
           THANK YOU.
     A     THE MECHANISM OF CREATION OF THOSE BLOODSTAIN HAS TO
HAVE A WET SWATCH TOUCH THE SURFACE OF THE PAPER AND WITH CERTAIN
PRESSURE CAUSE SUCH A TRANSFER.
     Q     CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT THE MANNER OF
TRANSFER?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
     THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           BASED ON THIS BLOODSTAIN PATTERN, WHAT IS YOUR
OPINION WITH RESPECT TO THE METHOD OF TRANSFER -- MANNER OF
TRANSFER?
     A     I DON'T KNOW.  I ONLY CAN REPORT A SCIENTIFIC FACT.
AS FAR AS MANNER --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  NO QUESTION PENDING.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.  HE'S NOT FINISHED HIS ANSWER.
     THE WITNESS:  AS A MANNER, SOMETHING, SOMEBODY HAS TO PUT
THE SWATCH IN THE BINDLE, CAUSE SUCH A TRANSFER.  WHO DID IT,
WHAT HAPPENED, I DON'T KNOW.
     THE COURT:  NEXT QUESTION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  ALL RIGHT.
           ON THE FACE OF IT, ARE THE EXISTENCE OF THESE WET
TRANSFER PATTERNS, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, INCONSISTENT WITH
THE SWATCHES HAVING BEEN PUT IN THE TEST TUBE 6:30 P.M. ON JUNE
13TH AND THEN REMOVED AT 7:30 A.M. ON JUNE 14TH?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  SPECULATION, CONJECTURE, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  WOULD YOU -- LET'S PUT IT -- START IT
THIS WAY.
           YOU TOLD US THAT ONE WOULD EXPECT THAT THESE
SWATCHES, HAVING BEEN PUT IN A TEST TUBE AT 6:30 P.M. ON JUNE
13TH AND REMOVED AT 7:30 A.M. ON JUNE 14TH, TO BE DRY.
     A     YES.
     Q     GIVEN THAT FACT --
     THE COURT:  GIVEN THAT OPINION.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  GIVEN THAT OPINION, WHAT IS YOUR
OPINION ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF THESE TRANSFER STAINS?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  OVERLY BROAD, NO FOUNDATION, CALLS FOR
CONCLUSION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  ONLY OPINION I CAN GIVING UNDER THIS
CIRCUMSTANCE, SOMETHING WRONG.
     MR. SCHECK:  NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MOTION TO STRIKE THE PHRASE "SOMETHING
WRONG."
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
           ALL RIGHT.  LET ME SEE COUNSEL --
     MR. SCHECK:  ONE SECOND.  I WANT TO TALK TO MY COUNSEL.
BUT I THINK THAT'S THE END OF THE EXAMINATION.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.

           (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
            BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           FOLKS, THERE'S A REQUEST BY THE LAWYERS FOR ABOUT A
FIVE- OR 10-MINUTE BREAK.  LET'S TAKE THAT BREAK, AND WE'LL COME
BACK AND SEE IF WE CAN DO SOME MORE BUSINESS TODAY.
           ALL RIGHT.
           LET'S TAKE 10.
           ALL RIGHT.
           DR. LEE, YOU CAN STEP DOWN.

           (RECESS.)

             (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
            HELD OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE
           JURY:)

     THE COURT:  BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
           ALL PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT.  THE JURY IS NOT
PRESENT.
           MR. SCHECK, YOU DETERMINED YOU NEED TO ASK THREE MORE
QUESTIONS?
     MR. SCHECK:  HOPEFULLY MAYBE ONE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           ONE IT IS.
     MR. COCHRAN:  POSSIBLY THREE, YOUR HONOR. BETWEEN ONE AND
THREE.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.

            (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
           HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
           PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.  PLEASE BE SEATED.
           LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE
MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
           MR. HENRY LEE IS ON THE WITNESS STAND STILL
UNDERGOING DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHECK.
           AND, MR. SCHECK, I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE ONE OR TWO
CLOSING QUESTIONS?
     MR. SCHECK:  YES, YOUR HONOR.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
     Q     BY MR. SCHECK:  DR. LEE, THE LAST ANSWER THAT YOU
GAVE THIS JURY WITH RESPECT TO THIS BOARD IS "SOMETHING IS
WRONG."  COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN?
     A     WHAT I MEAN --
     MR. GOLDBERG:  CALLS FOR CONCLUSION, YOUR HONOR.  HIS
OPINION IS SPECULATION, NO FOUNDATION.
     THE COURT:  OVERRULED.
     THE WITNESS:  WHAT I MEAN, THERE ARE SEVEN SWATCHES, MAYBE
A POTENTIAL EIGHT SWATCHES, FOUR IMPRINTS, WET TRANSFER ON THE
PAPER.  IF SEVEN SWATCHES ALL DRY, I SHOULDN'T SEE ANY WET
TRANSFER. IF SEVEN SWATCHES ALL WET, I SHOULD SEE SEVEN
TRANSFERS.
           I ONLY SEE FOUR.  THE NUMBER DID NOT ADD UP.  THERE
MAY BE REASON TO EXPLAIN.  I DON'T KNOW.
     MR. SCHECK:  THANK YOU.
     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           MR. GOLDBERG.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR --
     THE COURT:  YOU MAY APPROACH WITH THE COURT REPORTER,
PLEASE.

             (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
             HELD AT THE BENCH:)

     THE COURT:  WE'VE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR.
           MY INCLINATION IS TO TAKE A BREAK AT THIS TIME.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THANK YOU.  I WOULD ASSUME SO.
     MR. COCHRAN:  THEY HAVE FIVE MINUTES.
     THE COURT:  GIVEN WHERE WE ARE, THAT WILL GIVE MR. GOLDBERG
THE AFTERNOON AND THE WEEKEND TO PREPARE.
     MR. COCHRAN:  I THINK WE SHOULD --
     THE COURT:  WHEN DO YOU THINK -- HANK, WHEN DO YOU THINK
YOU'LL BE IN A POSITION TO ASSESS YOUR STRATEGY, KNOW IF YOU ARE
GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO FORWARD MONDAY?
     MR. GOLDBERG:  I'M GOING TO TRY TO CALL THE EARLY PART THIS
AFTERNOON.
     THE COURT:  WHY DON'T YOU LET ME KNOW SAY 2:30.
           ALL RIGHT.
           WOULD YOU CALL MR. COCHRAN'S OFFICE FIRST AND THEN
NOTIFY THE COURT?
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
           I ALSO HAVE BROUGHT TO COURT ALL OUR PHOTOGRAPHS.  WE
ONLY HAVE ONE SET OF ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPHS, BUT I SPOKE TO MISS
MARTINEZ LAST NIGHT.
           I'VE INDICATED TO THE PROSECUTION THAT THEY CAN HAVE
-- THEY CAN EXCHANGE WITH US -- IN TERMS OF THE BOARDS, THEY
WANTED ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPHS.  THEY CAN EXCHANGE THEM WITH US.  I
CAN GIVE THEM A FULL SET OF ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPHS.
           WE'LL WORK OUT SOME WAY TO GET EVERYBODY A SET, BUT
THEY CAN HAVE THOSE NOW TO SEND TO THEIR EXPERTS WHATEVER THEY
WANT.  I'VE SENT THEM A WHOLE BUNCH OF COPIES OF THESE.
     MR. COCHRAN:  CAN I SAY ONE OTHER THING TOO?
     THE COURT:  NO.  THIS IS ONE -- I'LL GET TO SCHEDULING IN A
SECOND.  I WANT TO RESOLVE THE GOLDBERG-SCHECK ISSUES FIRST.
           OKAY.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR --
     THE COURT:  DO YOU HAVE THOSE HERE?
     MR. SCHECK:  YES.
     THE COURT:   WHEN DO YOU PLAN ON DOING THIS? NOW?
     MR. SCHECK:  AS SOON AS THE JURY IS GONE, I CAN GO OVER
THIS WITH MISS MARTINEZ.  MR. GOLDBERG CAN GIVE THEM WHAT THEY
WANT.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  YOUR HONOR, MR. SCHECK AND I HAD AN
AGREEMENT OFF THE RECORD THAT SOME OF THE LITTLE THREADS ON THE
ITEMS BE CUT OFF ON THE RECORD BY THE WITNESS.  BUT --
     MR. SCHECK:  I'LL DO THAT RIGHT NOW.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  MR. SCHECK CAN DEAL WITH IT OR MAYBE WE CAN
DEAL WITH IT ON CROSS.
     MR. SCHECK:  I'LL DO IT RIGHT NOW.  IT'LL TAKE ONE MINUTE.
     MR. GOLDBERG:  THEN WE HAVE TO DOCUMENT IT BEFORE IT'S
DONE.
     THE COURT:  LET'S NOT DO THAT AND BREAK AT THIS POINT
BEFORE WE START CUTTING THREADS.
     MR. SCHECK:  NO.  JUST THE THREADS.
     THE COURT:  I UNDERSTAND.
           I'VE GOT A JILLION THINGS TO DO STARTING RIGHT NOW.
SO WE CAN DO THAT MONDAY OR WHENEVER WE COME BACK WITH DR. LEE.
     MR. COCHRAN:  TWO THINGS.
           THERE IS ANOTHER -- TO FURTHER HELP THE COURT -- NOT
THAT YOU NEED ANY HELP -- BUT WE HAVE JUST -- WE DID A CHART.  I
JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU GET THAT WITH REGARD TO FURTHER AMEND
THE THING ON THE TAPE.  SO WE PREPARED A CHART DEVICE TO MAKE IT
EASIER TO LISTEN TO THE TAPES.  I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE YOU
GOT THAT.
           THE OTHER THING --
     THE COURT:  I SHOULD GIVE YOU MINE BECAUSE MY STAFF HAS
ALREADY DONE THAT.
     MR. COCHRAN:  SEE?
           THE OTHER THING, WITH REGARD TO SCHEDULING, I EXPECT
THAT ON MONDAY, WE MAY STILL BE ON CROSS, BUT SOME PEOPLE WE MAY
WANT TO TAKE OUT OF  ORDER.
           MENZIONE WILL BE HERE MONDAY AS WILL CAROL GOBERN.
CAROL GOBERN IS THE LADY WHO GAVE HIM THE BAND-AID FOR HIS FINGER
BLEEDING.  AND BOTH -- I WANT TO PUT THEM ON TUESDAY.  BOTH HAVE
LITTLE KIDS. I GUESS THEY'VE GOT TO GET IN HERE TUESDAY.  I JUST
WANT THE COURT TO KNOW ABOUT THOSE TWO.
     MR. DARDEN:  THEY'LL BE HERE MONDAY OR TUESDAY?
     MR. COCHRAN:  MONDAY FOR TUESDAY I PRESUME, BUT THEY'VE GOT
TO GET IN AND OUT OF HERE.  SO I WANTED YOU TO KNOW THAT.
     THE COURT:  SOUNDS GOOD TO ME.
           ALL RIGHT.
           WE'LL TAKE OUR BREAK AT THIS POINT.

          (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
          HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

     THE COURT:  ALL RIGHT.
           LADIES AND GENTLEMEN --
           MR. SCHECK, CAN YOU TAKE THE BOARDS DOWN, PLEASE?
           ALL RIGHT.
           BACK ON THE RECORD.
           LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS
FOR THE DAY AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED.  I WANT YOU TO REST
ASSURED THAT I'LL BE WORKING ALL THE REST OF THE AFTERNOON AND
ALL DAY SATURDAY AND SUNDAY.  PLEASE HAVE A PLEASANT WEEKEND.
           BUT BEFORE I LET YOU GO, REMEMBER ALL MY ADMONITIONS
TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, FORM ANY
OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE
MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU OR ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE
WITH YOU WITH REGARD TO THE CASE.
           AND AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED, WE'LL STAND IN
RECESS UNTIL MONDAY MORNING AT 9:00 A.M.
           AND, DR. LEE, YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
           ALL RIGHT.
           THANK YOU.
           WE'LL STAND IN RECESS.
            (AT 12:02 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT
            WAS TAKEN UNTIL, MONDAY,
            AUGUST 28, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)

       SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
          FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
DEPARTMENT NO. 103           HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE



THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
                                      )
                           PLAINTIFF, )
                                      )
                                      )
           VS.                        ) NO. BA097211
                                      )
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
                                      )
                                      )
                           DEFENDANT. )


       REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

             FRIDAY, AUGUST 25, 1995
                     VOLUME 212

       PAGES 42978 THROUGH 43083, INCLUSIVE
  (PAGES 42970 THROUGH 42977, INCLUSIVE, SEALED)




APPEARANCES:          (SEE PAGE 2)







                   JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588
                   CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR #2378
  OFFICIAL REPORTERS

 APPEARANCES:


FOR THE PEOPLE:     GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
                   BY:  MARCIA R. CLARK, WILLIAM W.
                   HODGMAN, CHRISTOPHER A. DARDEN,
                   CHERI A. LEWIS, ROCKNE P. HARMON,
                   GEORGE W. CLARKE, SCOTT M. GORDON
                   LYDIA C. BODIN, HANK M. GOLDBERG,
                   ALAN YOCHELSON AND DARRELL S.
                   MAVIS, BRIAN R. KELBERG, AND
                   KENNETH E. LYNCH, DEPUTIES
                   18-000 CRIMINAL COURTS BUILDING
                   210 WEST TEMPLE STREET
                   LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012

FOR THE DEFENDANT:  ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
                   SARA L. CAPLAN, ESQUIRE
                   2121 AVENUE OF THE STARS
                   19TH FLOOR
                   LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90067

                   JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE
                   BY:  CARL E. DOUGLAS, ESQUIRE
                   SHAWN SNIDER CHAPMAN, ESQUIRE
                   KENNETH SPAULDING, ESQUIRE
                   4929 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD
                   SUITE 1010
                   LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90010

                   GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE
                   ROBERT KARDASHIAN, ESQUIRE
                   ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ESQUIRE
                   F. LEE BAILEY, ESQUIRE
                   BARRY SCHECK, ESQUIRE
                   PETER NEUFELD, ESQUIRE
                   ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQUIRE
                   WILLIAM C. THOMPSON, ESQUIRE


                       I N D E X



INDEX FOR VOLUME 212              PAGES 42978 - 43083

-----------------------------------------------------


DAY              DATE           SESSION   PAGE   VOL.


FRIDAY      AUGUST 25, 1995       A.M.   42978   212
-----------------------------------------------------

                    PROCEEDINGS


MOTION RE EXCLUSION OF EVIDENCE OF       42978   212
 DR. HENRY LEE'S BLOOD TRANSFER EXPERIMENT


 LEGEND:


MS. CLARK - MC                  MR. SHAPIRO - S
MR. HODGMAN - H                 MR. COCHRAN - C MR. DARDEN  D
            MR. DOUGLAS - CD
MS. LEWIS - L                   MR. BAILEY - B
MS. KAHN - K                    MS. CHAPMAN - SC MR. GOLDBERG -
GB               MR. BLASIER - BB
MR. CLARKE - GC                 MR. UELMEN - U
MR. HARMON - RH                 MR. SCHECK - BS
MR. GORDON - G                  MR. NEUFELD - N
MR. KELBERG - BK

-----------------------------------------------------

         CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES


DEFENSE
WITNESSES       DIRECT  CROSS  REDIRECT  RECROSS  VOL.


LEE, HENRY C.                                     212
 (RESUMED)    43016BS

-----------------------------------------------------

         ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES


WITNESSES       DIRECT  CROSS  REDIRECT  RECROSS  VOL.


LEE, HENRY C.                                     212
 (RESUMED)    43016BS



                       EXHIBITS


DEFENSE                       FOR              IN EXHIBIT
      IDENTIFICATION      EVIDENCE
                         PAGE   VOL.       PAGE  VOL.


1356 -  POSTERBOARD      43016   212
     ENTITLED "ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE:  FRONT FOYER"

1357 -  POSTERBOARD      43029   212
     ENTITLED "BLOODSTAIN ON EVIDENCE BAG"

1358 -  POSTERBOARD      43036   212
     ENTITLED "HISTORY OF ITEM 47:  BLOOD DROP ON
     BUNDY WALKWAY"

1359 -  POSTERBOARD      43042   212
     ENTITLED "HISTORY OF ITEM 47:  BLOOD DROP ON
     BUNDY WALKWAY"

1360 -  POSTERBOARD      43045   212
     ENTITLED "HISTORY OF ITEM 47:  BLOOD DROP ON
     BUNDY WALKWAY - BLOOD SWATCHES AND BLOODSTAIN
     PATTERNS OF WET TRANSFER"

1360-A -  2-PAGE         43039   212
     DOCUMENT DESCRIBED AS THE NOTES OF GARY SIMS

1360-B -  PHOTOGRAPH     43051   212
     OF BLOODSTAIN PATTERSN OF WET TRANSFER SWATCH

1360-C -  PHOTOGRAPH     43053   212
     OF CLOSE-UP VIEW OF BLOODSTAIN PATTERNS OF WET
     TRANSFER SWATCH WITH ARROWS (COMPUTER PRINTOUT)

1360-D -  PHOTOGRAPH     43053   212
     OF CLOSE-UP VIEW OF BLOODSTAIN PATTERNS OF WET
     TRANSFER SWATCH WITH MARKINGS
     (COMPUTER PRINTOUT)

1360-E -  PHOTOGRAPH     43054   212
     OF CLOSE-UP VIEW OF BLOODSTAIN PATTERNS OF WET
     TRANSFER SWATCH WITH FOUR ARROWS
     (COMPUTER PRINTOUT)

1361 -  POSTERBOARD      43055   212
     ENTITLED "HISTORY OF ITEM 47:  BLOOD DROP ON
     BUNDY WALKWAY"

1362 -  POSTERBOARD      43057   212
     ENTITLED "ITEM 47:  BLOOD SWATCHES VS.
     WET TRANSFERS"



                       EXHIBITS
                    (CONTINUED)



DEFENSE                       FOR              IN EXHIBIT
      IDENTIFICATION      EVIDENCE
                         PAGE   VOL.       PAGE  VOL.


1362-HA THRU 1362-HE -   43059   212
     EACH A MAGNETIC PHOTOGRAPH IN THE SHAPE OF AN
     ENLARGED SWATCH

1362-DOJ 1 THRU -        43059   212
     1362-DOJ 2, EACH A MAGNETIC PHOTOGRAPH IN THE
     SHAPE OF AN ENLARGED SWATCH

1362-RULER -             43060   212
     RULER OF DR. HENRY C. LEE

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