Xref: world alt.fan.oj-simpson.transcripts:150
Newsgroups: alt.fan.oj-simpson.transcripts
Path: world!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!myra
From:
[email protected] (Myra Dinnerstein)
Subject: TRANSCRIPT - 6/21/95 - 183k
Message-ID: <
[email protected]>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 05:08:40 GMT
Approved:
[email protected]
Lines: 4301
Sender:
[email protected]
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JUNE 21, 1995
10:05 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
(APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE
M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON
MATTER.
THE DEFENDANT IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH
HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY.
THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED BY MR. DARDEN, MISS CLARK.
THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT.
COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO TAKE UP BEFORE WE
PROCEED WITH THE NEXT WITNESS?
MR. COCHRAN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
YES, I THINK SO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
MR. COCHRAN: I WAS TALKING TO THE PROSECUTION ABOUT SOME
STIPULATIONS.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
I UNDERSTAND THERE MAY BE SOME RELEVANT DISCOVERY
ABOUT TODAY'S WITNESS AND WE JUST GOT IT, SO THERE MAY BE A
REASON TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
I WAS JUST SPEAKING WITH MR. DARDEN BRIEFLY.
THE COURT: WHICH WITNESS IS THIS?
MR. COCHRAN: MS. DELANEY, YOUR HONOR, KATHLEEN DELANEY.
MR. COCHRAN: SO MAYBE WE WILL HAVE TIME TO DO THAT, BUT WE
HAVE NOT SEEN THIS DISCOVERY. WE JUST GOT IT.
THE COURT: WHAT DOES THIS RELATE TO?
MR. COCHRAN: APPARENTLY PHONE RECORDS FROM THE MIRAGE
HOTEL, APPARENTLY, MR. DOUGLAS IS TELLING ME.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: ALSO I SEE MR. RUBIN BACK IN COURT, YOUR
HONOR, AND WE WOULD LIKE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRIEFLY TALK WITH HIM
BEFORE HE IS CALLED TO THE STAND AND WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT
OPPORTUNITY.
BUT SECONDLY, I HAVE, AS I PROMISED, AN ARGUMENT I
WOULD LIKE TO MAKE REGARDING ANY FURTHER DEMONSTRATIONS OF
SO-CALLED NEW GLOVES AND I WOULD LIKE TO CITE SOME CASES TO THE
COURT AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.
SO WE WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO MR. RUBIN. I WOULD LIKE
AN OFFER OF PROOF FROM THE PEOPLE SO WE ARE NOT WASTING OUR TIME
SO AT LEAST WE KNOW WHERE WE ARE GOING TO GO, AND THEN I CAN
ADDRESS THAT.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
WE HAVE A COUPLE OF REQUESTS. FIRST, WE WOULD LIKE
THE COURT'S PERMISSION TO MEASURE BOTH OF MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS,
AND DEPENDING UPON THAT MEASUREMENT THEN WE WILL DECIDE WHAT WE
WANT TO DO NEXT.
THE COURT: AND IN WHAT MANNER DO YOU PROPOSE TO MEASURE
MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
MR. DARDEN: WELL, MR. RUBIN IS HERE. HE HAS A MEASURING
TAPE. IT WILL BE OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY. WE WOULD JUST
LIKE HIS HANDS MEASURED.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO DO IT IN THE PRESENCE OF THE
JURY. WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS A SEARCH FOR
TRUTH HERE.
THE COURT: WELL, MR. DARDEN TELLS ME HE WOULD LIKE TO DO
IT OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY SO THAT THEY CAN DETERMINE
WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO NEXT.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE ONLY THING I WOULD SAY, YES,
HE DID SAY THAT, BUT PERHAPS THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS, UMM,
BEFORE LAST THURSDAY.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, THE GLOVES FIT LAST THURSDAY, MR.
COCHRAN, AND WE ARE GOING TO SHOW THAT TODAY KAY.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT GOING TO DEBATE THAT OR GET INTO
THAT, YOUR HONOR. I THINK WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THOSE GLOVES AND
THAT IS WHY MR. RUBIN IS BACK HERE FOR A THIRD TIME.
I OBJECT.
I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THEM MEASURING MR. SIMPSON'S
HANDS. OBVIOUSLY THE COURT HAS THE AUTHORITY TO ORDER THAT. I
HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT, BUT I JUST THINK THAT IN A CASE WHERE
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOING EVERYTHING OUT HERE IN THE OPEN, LET'S
DO IT BEFORE THE JURY, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.
BEFORE WE GET TO THAT POINT I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO
TALK TO MR. RUBIN AND I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THE COURT ON
ANY DEMONSTRATIONS THAT THEY MAY HAVE IN MIND DOWN THE ROAD.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, DO YOU WANT TO ENLIGHTEN US AS TO
WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE AFTER MR. RUBIN MEASURES MR. SIMPSON'S
HANDS?
MR. DARDEN: THE OPTIONS ARE DOING NOTHING EVER AGAIN
RELATED TO GLOVES OR DOING SOMETHING LATER ON DOWN THE ROAD.
ANOTHER OPTION --
THE COURT: HOW FAR DOWN THE ROAD -- I MEAN, YOU DIDN'T
HAVE MR. RUBIN TO COME OUT FROM NEW YORK TO DO A TAPE MEASURE OF
MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS.
MR. DARDEN: THAT IS TRUE. IT WAS OBVIOUS TO US THAT THE
GLOVES FROM THE CRIME SCENE AND ROCKINGHAM FIT THE DEFENDANT. I
MEAN, THEY ARE HIS GLOVES, BUT ASIDE FROM THAT, TODAY WE WOULD
LIKE TO HAVE A MEASUREMENT OF HIS HANDS.
NOW, SHOULD WE DECIDE TO GO FORWARD WITH MR. RUBIN'S
TESTIMONY TODAY, THEN I WILL BE ASKING THE COURT TO ORDER MR.
SIMPSON TO PLACE ON HIS HANDS A NEW PAIR OF ARIS LEATHER LIGHTS,
SIZE EXTRA LARGE.
MR. RUBIN HAS REPRESENTED TO ME THAT THE GLOVES THE
COURT HANDED OVER TO BOTH THE PROSECUTION AND THE DEFENSE
YESTERDAY REPRESENT THE CRIME SCENE GLOVES IN THEIR ORIGINAL AND
ORDINARY CONDITION.
THE COURT: YOU ARE SPEAKING OF THE GLOVES THAT THE COURT
RECEIVED FROM STEPH FOGELSON OF ARIS ISOTONER BY FEDERAL EXPRESS
YESTERDAY, CORRECT?
MR. DARDEN: THAT'S CORRECT.
SO WE ARE GOING TO BE ASKING PERHAPS FOR A
DEMONSTRATION SIMILAR TO THE ONE WE HAD LAST WEEK, EXCEPT THIS
TIME WE WON'T HAVE THE CRIME SCENE GLOVES AND MR. SIMPSON WON'T
HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY AT THAT TIME TO PUT ON LATEX GLOVES AND JACK
AROUND WITH US AND PLAY GAMES WITH US IN FRONT OF THE JURY.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THESE TERMS LIKE "JACK AROUND"
ARE TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.
THE COURT: I AGREE.
MR. COCHRAN: AND DISRESPECTFUL TO THE COURT.
THE COURT: I AGREE.
MR. DARDEN: THAT IS DISRESPECTFUL TO THE COURT?
THE COURT: NO. I DON'T NEED THAT TERMINOLOGY HERE.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
MR. COCHRAN: NOW, SHALL I PROCEED, YOUR HONOR?
SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT POINT WE ARE AT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WE ARE AT THE POINT AS TO AT WHAT POINT AM I
GOING TO ALLOW THE MEASUREMENT OF MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS BY TAPE
MEASURE BY MR. RUBIN.
AND MY INCLINATION AT THIS POINT IS TO ALLOW THAT TO
OCCUR NOW SO THE PROSECUTION CAN MAKE A DETERMINATION WHETHER OR
NOT THEY ARE GOING TO RECALL MR. RUBIN.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS FINE. AND MY ONLY REQUEST, IF WE ARE
GOING TO DO THAT, LET'S DO IT IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY.
OBVIOUSLY I THINK WE HAVE A RIGHT TO BRING THAT OUT. IT IS NOT A
SECRET AND I'M GOING TO BRING IT OUT REGARDLESS.
THE COURT: WELL, MR. COCHRAN, WHAT I WOULD PROBABLY DO IS
THAT I WILL ALLOW MR. RUBIN TO MAKE THE MEASUREMENT HERE TODAY
RIGHT NOW OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY.
IF YOU WANT TO CALL HIM OUT OF ORDER AS AN ADVERSE
WITNESS, SINCE HE IS HERE FROM NEW YORK, I WOULD ALLOW YOU TO
RECALL HIM FOR FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU. I THINK
HE WOULD APPRECIATE IT ALSO.
WELL, THEN I WILL OLD OFF MY OTHER ARGUMENT REGARDING
WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE THIS DEMONSTRATION REGARDING WHETHER WE
SHOULD MAKE THIS JUDGMENT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT WITH MY CLIENT, YOUR
HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
MR. COCHRAN: I WAS TALKING WITH THE PROSECUTION WHEN YOU
CAME OUT.
THE COURT: MR. RUBIN, DO YOU HAVE YOUR MEASUREMENT WITH
YOU.
MR. RUBIN: YES, I DO.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK WITH MR.
RUBIN.
MR. DARDEN: I WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT IN.
MR. COCHRAN: WE DIDN'T HAVE THE OPTION TO SIT IN ON ALL
THEIR MEETINGS.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, WHY DON'T YOU TALK TO YOUR CLIENT.
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
THE COURT: AND DO WE HAVE OUR AIRTOUCH REPRESENTATIVE?
MS. CLARK: YES.
THE COURT: I SEE WE HAVE BEEN JOINED BY INVESTIGATOR BELL.
MR. DARDEN: AND INVESTIGATOR STEVENS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WELL, MR. STEVENS WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THIS IS
THE FIRST APPEARANCE OF MR. BELL AND ALSO THE FIRST APPEARANCE OF
MISS FILIPE.
MS. FILIPE: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
THE COURT: AND MR. DARDEN, LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
WHICH OF THE EXEMPLAR PAIRS OF GLOVES ARE YOU
PROPOSING TO USE?
MR. DARDEN: THE EXTRA LARGE.
THE COURT: WHICH ONE OF THE FOUR?
MR. DARDEN: DO YOU WANT TO SEE THE PAIR?
THE COURT: YOU ARE GOING TO USE ONE OF THE FOUR THAT YOU
HAVE -- EXCUSE ME. ONE OF THE TWO?
MR. DARDEN: YES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: ALTHOUGH I DID WANT TO MAKE AN ADDITIONAL
POINT ON THAT ISSUE WHEN MR. COCHRAN IS FREE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: YES. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE TIME, YOUR
HONOR.
HAVING EXPRESSED MY BELIEF THAT THE COURT CERTAINLY
DOES HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THIS, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. I
JUST THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE IN FRONT OF THE JURY, BUT WHAT THE
COURT HAS PROPOSED IS CERTAINLY ACCEPTABLE TO US, THAT I CAN
BRING IT OUT ON CROSS OR MAKE HIM MY OWN WITNESS RIGHT TODAY
BECAUSE HE LIVES IN NEW YORK, AND THAT IS FINE.
I WILL HOLD OFF THE ARGUMENT WITH REGARD TO ANY
DEMONSTRATIONS UNTIL WE SEE WHAT HAPPENS AT THIS POINT, IF THAT
IS ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. RUBIN, WHY DON'T YOU STEP
FORWARD, PLEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: NOT TO SHIFT SUBJECTS, CAN WE FIND OUT HOW
MANY WITNESSES THE PROSECUTION HAS TODAY ALTOGETHER SO WE KNOW
WHERE WE ARE GOING TODAY?
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: I HAVE TWO -- I DON'T HAVE TO WHISPER. I HAVE
TWO.
MR. COCHRAN: INCLUDING MR. RUBIN?
MS. CLARK: OH, NO, THAT IS THREE.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
MR. DARDEN HAS ONE AND YOU HAVE TWO. WHO ARE THE
TWO?
MS. CLARK: I BELIEVE SO.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE FIND OUT?
MS. CLARK: JUST WHAT I TOLD YOU BEFORE, LUELLEN ROBERTS
AND THE CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS FROM THE MIRAGE HOTEL.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE TRYING TO WORK OUT SOME
STIPULATIONS.
MS. CLARK: I DID NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE OTHER WITNESSES
THAT WOULD BE CALLED IF WE DON'T STIPULATE, BUT I THINK THAT WE
WILL.
THE COURT: LET ME ASK MR. SIMPSON TO STAND.
AND MR. RUBIN, WOULD YOU WALK OVER, PLEASE, AND
CONDUCT YOUR MEASURE.
(MR. SIMPSON'S LEFT HAND IS
MEASURED BY MR. RUBIN.)
MR. DARDEN: CAN WE ASK MR. SIMPSON NOT TO CHAT?
MR. COCHRAN: NOT ON THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: I'M STANDING HERE.
THE COURT: THIS IS NOT PART OF THE RECORD.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
COUNSEL, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO ALL BE QUIET WHILE
MR. RUBIN DOES THIS.
MR. RUBIN: DO YOU WANT TO DO THE MEASUREMENT?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. RUBIN: IT IS ABOUT NINE AND FIVE EIGHTS INCHES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT WAS THE LEFT HAND.
MS. CLARK: MAY THE RECORD REFLECT THE WITNESS HAS ASKED
MR. SIMPSON TO PLEASE CLOSE HIS FINGERS AND RELAX HIS HAND.
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: MR. SIMPSON HAS DONE THAT.
MR. RUBIN: IT IS REALLY IN THE AREA PLUS OR MINUS ABOUT
EIGHTH OF AN INCH, IN THE NINE AND A HALF AREA.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT IS THE LEFT HAND?
MR. RUBIN: YES.
(MR. SIMPSON'S RIGHT HAND IS
MEASURED BY MR. RUBIN.)
MR. RUBIN: NINE AND FIVE EIGHTS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. NINE AND A FIVE EIGHTS?
MR. RUBIN: NINE AND A HALF ON THE LEFT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: ARE WE ON THE RECORD?
THE COURT: NO, WE ARE NOT.
ALL RIGHT.
MR. RUBIN, WOULD YOU STEP BACK AND TAKE YOUR SEAT
AGAIN, PLEASE.
THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, BASED UPON THE NINE AND A
HALF AND NINE AND 5/8 MEASUREMENTS, WHAT IS YOUR DESIRE AS FAR AS
MR. RUBIN IS CONCERNED?
AND MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU WANT SOME TIME OF YOUR OWN TO
CHAT WITH MR. RUBIN?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, WE WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS AND MR. RUBIN.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. RUBIN --
MR. DARDEN: CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
MR. DARDEN, WHY DON'T YOUR COMPLETE YOUR DISCUSSIONS
WITH MR. RUBIN AND I WILL ALLOW HIM TO SPEAK WITH MR. COCHRAN.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS AND MR. RUBIN.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY
AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. RUBIN.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE HAVE A FEW MINUTES -- WE
WOULD LIKE -- WE CAN'T USE THE JURY ROOM? THE JURY IS DOWN HERE
NOW?
MAY WE USE SOMEPLACE IN THE BACK?
THE COURT: I THINK YOU WILL HAVE TO CHAT RIGHT THERE.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE IS IN OPERATION IN THE
BACK.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE TAKE A BREAK TO DO THIS, YOUR HONOR,
FIVE MINUTES OR SO?
THE COURT: DO YOU REALLY NEED FIVE MINUTES TO TALK TO MR.
RUBIN?
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK SO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE WE NEED TO DISCUSS? I HATE TO
LOSE ALL THIS TIME.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO THEN ADDRESS THE ISSUE
-- WHY THEY SAID THEY WANTED A DEMONSTRATION. IN OTHER WORDS, I
WILL WAIT UNTIL THE TIME --
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: CAN I WAIT UNTIL HE FINISHES HIS CONVERSATION
WITH MR. RUBIN.
MR. COCHRAN: IT WOULD SAVE TIME, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD HAVE
TO TALK TO HIM AGAIN.
THE COURT: DO YOU WISH TO GO FORWARD WITH THE USE OF THE
EXEMPLAR GLOVES PROVIDED BY ARIS?
MR. DARDEN: I THINK THAT I DO, BUT I NEED TO TALK TO MR.
RUBIN FOR JUST A COUPLE OF MORE MINUTES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU ARE READY.
(RECESS.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH
HIS COUNSEL.
THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED.
THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT.
MR. SHAPIRO, DID EVERYTHING GO WELL WITH MR. METZNER
YESTERDAY?
MR. SHAPIRO: YES. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ASKING.
THE COURT: WOULD YOU CONVEY TO HIM THE COURT'S BEST
WISHES.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU. I APPRECIATE THAT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN, ARE WE READY TO PROCEED?
MR. DARDEN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MR. SIMPSON TRY ON A NEW PAIR
OF ARIS LEATHER LIGHTS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THIS IS ONE OF THE EXEMPLAR PAIRS THAT WE RECEIVED
>FROM ARIS ISOTONER YESTERDAY; IS THAT CORRECT.
MR. DARDEN: THAT'S CORRECT.
THE COURT: ANY COMMENTS ON THAT, MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: YES. I WOULD LIKE TO BE HEARD ON THAT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I ADD A COUPLE OTHER EXHIBITS SO THAT MR.
COCHRAN CAN RESPOND TO THOSE WHILE HE IS AT THE PODIUM? WE WANT
TO ASK THAT MR. SIMPSON BE REQUIRED TO PUT THE GLOVES ON OVER AT
THE DEFENSE TABLE AND THEN WALK OVER TO THE JURY AFTER HE HAS
PLACED THEM ON HIS HANDS.
WE ARE GOING TO ASK THE COURT TO DIRECT MR. SIMPSON
NOT TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE JURORS, CERTAINLY NOT TO COMMUNICATE
WITH ME AS WELL.
THE COURT: AND WHEN DO YOU PROPOSE TO DO THIS? DURING THE
COURSE OF YOUR REQUEST TO RECALL MR. RUBIN?
MR. DARDEN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO BE CALLING MR. RUBIN
FOR OTHER THAN TO TESTIFY THAT THESE GLOVES HAVE THE BROSSIER
STITCHING AND ARE EXACT REPLICAS OR PART OF THE BATCH THAT WAS
PRODUCED BACK IN '90, '91.
MR. DARDEN: WE ARE GOING TO ASK HIM TO TAKE A LOOK AT MR.
SIMPSON'S HANDS AFTER HE PLACES THE GLOVES ON AND THEN WE ARE
GOING TO HAVE HIM STEP BACK UP ON THE WITNESS STAND AND INDICATE
WHETHER OR NOT IT IS A PERFECT FIT OR SOMETHING LESS AND TALK TO
HIM A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE LINING AND A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT
SHRINKAGE.
AND IT SHOULDN'T TAKE VERY LONG AT ALL.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: NOW, IN THE EVENT THAT MR. SIMPSON IS UNABLE
TO PLACE HIS HAND IN THE GLOVE, WE HAVE GENTLEMEN HERE WHOSE
HANDS ARE LARGER THAN MR. SIMPSON'S.
THE COURT: WHO WOULD THAT BE?
MR. DARDEN: THAT WOULD BE MR. BELL AND MR. STEVENS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: SPENDING AN AWFUL LOT OF TIME ON GLOVES.
THE PROBLEM, HOWEVER, IS, YOUR HONOR, LAST THURSDAY
THE PROSECUTION MADE A CALCULATED DECISION TO HAVE MR. SIMPSON
TRY ON SOME GLOVES THAT DID NOT FIT AND THEY ARE THE RELEVANT
GLOVES IN THIS CASE.
AND I WANT TO ADDRESS THAT ISSUE TO THE COURT AT THIS
POINT. I WANT TO TALK TO THE COURT.
THE RELEVANCE OF THE FIT OF THESE ALLEGED NEW GLOVES
DEPENDS ON SHOWING -- SHOWING BY THE PROSECUTION, IT SEEMS TO ME,
OF SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY BETWEEN THE CONDITIONS OF THESE NEW
GLOVES AND THE GLOVES IN EVIDENCE, ITEMS 9 AND ITEMS 37, YOUR
HONOR.
THAT IS WHAT IS REALLY RELEVANT.
THOSE GLOVES WERE FOUND ONE AT ROCKINGHAM ALLEGEDLY
AND ONE AT THE BUNDY SCENE.
SO THOSE ARE THE RELEVANT GLOVES THAT HE TRIED ON
LAST THURSDAY THAT DIDN'T FIT.
NOW WE ARE ASKED TO TAKE SOME GLOVES THAT WERE
APPARENTLY FOUND IN THE FACTORY AFTER AN EXHAUSTIVE SEARCH, MADE
IN THE PHILIPPINES, THEN BROUGHT FORWARD.
AND I THINK THE COURT MAY WANT TO TAKE SOME TESTIMONY
>FROM MR. RUBIN. WE THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.
THERE ARE -- BASICALLY WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE GLOVES
THERE ARE BASICALLY THREE DIFFERENT SIZES IN THE EXTRA LARGE.
MR. RUBIN IS IN FACT AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA AND HE SHARED HIS
KNOWLEDGE WITH US. THERE ARE THE PERFECT EXTRA LARGE, THE SNUG
EXTRA LARGE AND THE OVERSIZE EXTRA LARGE, AND SO THAT, YOU KNOW,
WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF PLAY OR GIVE.
WE TALKED TO HIM ABOUT THAT. HE OR NO ONE ELSE CAN
TELL US THE CONDITION OF THOSE GLOVES, THE GLOVES IN EVIDENCE, AS
OF JUNE 12TH, WHICH IS THE RELEVANT TIME, YOUR HONOR.
WE DO KNOW IN FACT THAT AS OF JUNE 21ST SOME
MEASUREMENTS WERE TAKEN OF 9 AND 37, SO WE KNOW THOSE PARTICULAR
MEASUREMENTS.
BUT WE ARE NOW -- NOW ON JUNE 21ST, 1995, AND SO, YOU
KNOW, THIS IS AN EXPERIMENT THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THESE GLOVES WOULD FIT MR. SIMPSON OR
THESE OTHER GENTLEMEN AT THIS TIME IF THEY ARE EXTRA LARGE.
IN FACT, I THINK MR. RUBIN WOULD TESTIFY, IF WE WERE
ALLOWED SOME BRIEF HEARING -- IS TIME FLYING? -- IF MR. --
THE COURT: THIS IS MY FONDEST DREAM COME TRUE.
MR. COCHRAN: THIS CASE IS ABOUT TO BE OVER; IS THAT IT?
MR. COCHRAN: TIME FLIES WHEN YOU ARE HAVING FUN, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: IF I MIGHT PROCEED?
THE COURT: PLEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD -- IF MR. RUBIN WILL
TESTIFY THAT EXTRA LARGE GLOVES WILL -- WITHIN THE RANGE THAT I
JUST DESCRIBED FOR YOU, WILL FIT 99.5 PERCENT OF ALL MEN IN
AMERICA -- AND THAT IS ALL NICE TO KNOW AND THE JURY NEEDS TO BE
TOLD THAT BECAUSE WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
THE QUESTION IS THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE SO IT IS NOT
-- IT IS NOT PARTICULARLY HELPFUL.
MR. RUBIN WILL TALK ABOUT GLOVES STRETCHING OUT FROM
NORTH TO SOUTH AND MR. DARDEN HAS ALREADY TOLD US THAT THEY HAVE
TWO VERY LARGE MEN HERE WHO PURPORT TO HAVE HANDS BIGGER THAN MR.
SIMPSON AND THEY HAVE TRIED THESE GLOVES ON.
I MEAN, THEY ARE BEING A LOT MORE CAREFUL. THESE ARE
STRETCHED OUT BY THEIR
HANDS -- SO I MEAN THESE ARE NOT PRISTINE GLOVES.
MR. RUBIN WILL ALSO SAY THESE -- THAT THE GLOVES IN
EVIDENCE, 9 AND 37, HAVE BEEN HANDLED IN SUCH A WAY HE CAN'T TELL
US ANYTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WERE BACK ON JUNE 12TH OR ON JUNE
21ST, WHICH WOULD BE A MUCH MORE RELEVANT TIME.
AND HE HIMSELF SAW TWO MEN WHO I PRESUME ARE MESSERS.
BELL AND STEVENS, TRY ON THESE GLOVES THAT OUR CLIENT IS NOW
GOING TO BE ASKED TO TRY ON TODAY.
THAT IS NOT FAIR. WE DON'T HAVE ANY PRISTINE GLOVES
>FROM THAT STANDPOINT.
FURTHER, IF THE COURT PLEASES, IT JUST SEEMS LIKE
UNDER THE CASES THAT I NOW WANT TO CITE TO THE COURT, THAT YOU
HAVE THE AUTHORITY, YOU HAVE THE DISCRETION TO EXCLUDE THIS BOGUS
COURTROOM DEMONSTRATION IN WHICH THEY SEEK TO RECAPTURE SOME
CREDIBILITY FOR THE MISTAKES THEY MADE LAST THURSDAY.
AND I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO READ SEVERAL CASES THAT
I THINK WOULD BE ON POINT OR AT LEAST WITH REGARD TO THE
EXCLUSION OF EVIDENCE.
AND I WOULD CITE TO THE COURT THE CASE OF PEOPLE
VERSUS V-A-I-Z-A, 244 CAL.APP.2D, 121. I WOULD CITE ADDITIONALLY
PEOPLE VERSUS BOYD, 222 CAL.APP.3D, 541, PEOPLE VERSUS GILBERT,
5 CAL.APP.4TH, 1372, PEOPLE VERSUS BONIN, 47 CAL.3D, 808.
AND THE KEY ISSUE WITH RESPECT TO SUBSTANTIAL
SIMILARITY IS NOT THAT THEY ARE THE SAME GLOVE, YOUR HONOR, BUT
THE CONDITION OF THE GLOVES, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT, THE ALLEGED SHRINKAGE, IF ANY, THE ALLEGED CONDITION, IF
ANY.
IF MR. RUBIN CAN'T TELL US WHETHER THOSE GLOVES, WHEN
THEY WERE PURCHASED, IF THEY WERE PURCHASED BACK IN 1990, WERE
THE SNUG EXTRA LARGE, THE PERFECT EXTRA LARGE OR THE OVERSIZE
EXTRA LARGE, AND SO THAT IS A REAL PROBLEM.
THE CONDITION OF THE GLOVES AT THAT TIME, AT THE TIME
ON JUNE 12TH, IS WHAT'S RELEVANT TO THIS JURY AND WE ARE NOT HERE
TO MISLEAD THIS JURY. WE ARE NOT HERE TO TRY TO HAVE SOMEBODY
RECOVER FROM A MISTAKE THEY MADE.
THIS IS NOT ANYTHING PERSONAL. THIS IS A CASE THAT
YOUR HONOR WILL MAKE US TRY BASED UPON WHAT'S APPROPRIATE
EVIDENCE AND THAT IS NOT FAIR TO MY CLIENT.
AS TO THE NEXT POINT, I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT TO THE
COURT THAT -- AND YOU SUSTAINED MANY OF MY OBJECTIONS.
IT WAS MR. DARDEN WHO WAS DOING MOST THE TALKING.
YOU HAD ALLOWED A DEMONSTRATION, AND MR. DARDEN TOOK IT UPON
HIMSELF TO GO FORWARD AND ASK MR. SIMPSON TO GRIP SOMETHING
BECAUSE THEY WERE EMBARRASSED AND HE KEPT TALKING AND I KEPT
OBJECTING AND IT WAS TOTALLY UNFAIR.
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ASKED TO HAVE MR. SIMPSON OVER
THERE.
NOW, BECAUSE THEY ARE SO WOUNDED, THEY DON'T WANT HIM
OVER THERE. THAT IS UNFAIR.
IF HE IS GOING TO TRY ON THESE GLOVES, HE SHOULD TRY
THEM ON RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE JURY AGAIN, BUT THE POINT -- LET ME
JUST SUMMARIZE WHAT I HAVE TRIED TO SAY.
THESE GLOVES WOULD FIT ALMOST EVERY MALE IN AMERICA,
THESE NEW GLOVES, AND ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN STRETCHED,
SO THEY ARE BEING VERY CAUTIOUS. WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO TODAY,
YOUR HONOR? THEY HAVE HIS HANDS MEASURED, THEY BRING TWO BIG
FELLOWS DOWN HERE WHO HAD THEIR HANDS IN THESE GLOVES.
THEY HAVE MR. RUBIN HAVE HIS HANDS IN THESE GLOVES.
WHAT KIND OF TEST IS THIS? WE ARE SPINNING THEIR WHEELS BECAUSE
THEY WANT TO END ON SOME KIND OF A HIGH NOTE.
AND I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT -- AND THE BURDEN OF
PROOF IS ON THE PROSECUTION TO SHOW THAT THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL
SIMILARITY OF THE CONDITIONS OF THESE GLOVES AND THEY CAN'T DO
IT.
AND WE ASK FOR A HEARING ON THAT POINT BEFORE WE
PROCEED, YOUR HONOR. IT IS TOTALLY UNFAIR.
AND IF YOU RULE AGAINST US -- AND I WOULD ASK YOU TO
LOOK AT THESE CASES BECAUSE YOU HAVE WIDE DISCRETION IN THIS
MATTER -- AND I WOULD ASK YOU TO DO THAT, AND THEN -- WHEN YOU
RULE AGAINST US, CERTAINLY MR. SIMPSON SHOULD BE ABLE TO TRY
THESE GLOVES ON FRONT OF THE JURY, JUST AS HE DID BEFORE, AND IF
THERE IS GOING TO BE -- AND I WOULD ASK YOU TO CAUTION COUNSEL
NOT TO MAKE ALL THESE STATEMENTS BACK AND FORTH.
MR. SIMPSON WAS ONLY RESPONDING TO WHAT HE WAS SAYING
TO HIM AND TRYING TO COMPLY AND HE DIDN'T LIKE THE RESULTS SO NOW
THEY WANT TO CHANGE THAT. IT IS REALLY STRANGE, YOUR HONOR,
WHERE WE ALL HEAR ALL THIS TALK FOR MONTHS ABOUT THE SEARCH OF
TRUTH AND THEY NOW WANT TO DO IT IN SECRET AND WE WANT IT TO BE
IN THE OPEN.
AND I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO READ THE CASES AND I'M
SPECIFICALLY FOR A HEARING.
IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE REPRESENTATIONS
I'VE MADE ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE THESE GLOVES WOULD FIT, THE
PEOPLE THAT TRIED ON THESE GLOVES -- AND THIS IS JUST A
DEMONSTRATION THAT TAKES NO -- TAKES US NOWHERE AND MEANS
NOTHING, YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE THE ONLY REAL TEST IS EXTREMELY
PREJUDICIAL, IT SEEMS TO US ALSO, SO I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE
VERY, VERY UNFAIR.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, I THINK IT IS --
THE COURT: I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE POINT RAISED BY MR.
COCHRAN REGARDING THE TRYING ON OF THESE GLOVES BY MESSERS. BELL
AND STEVENS.
MR. DARDEN: UNTRUE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. BELL AND MR. STEVENS TRIED ON A SINGLE PAIR OF
GLOVES, THE SAME GLOVES I MYSELF KEPT MR. MY POSSESSION, ANOTHER
PAIR OF EXTRA LARGE GLOVES, AND ONLY MR. RUBIN HAS SEEN THOSE
GLOVES TO MEASURE THEM, SO I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE GETS THAT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
SO IT IS YOUR REPRESENTATION TO THE COURT THAT THE
ONES THAT WERE USED WITH MR. STEVENS AND MR. BELL WERE THE SECOND
PAIR?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. DARDEN: YES.
THE COURT: THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT YESTERDAY WE DID
RECEIVE FROM ARIS FOUR PAIRS OF EXTRA LARGE. THE COURT KEPT ONE,
GAVE TWO TO THE PROSECUTION, GAVE ONE TO THE DEFENSE.
I INDICATED I WANTED TO KEEP ONE -- ONE PAIR OF EXTRA
LARGE IN THE COURT'S POSSESSION FOR PRECISELY THIS REASON.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
AND I HAVE ASKED MR. YOCHELSON TO CALL THE GENERAL
COUNSEL FOR ARIS TO OBTAIN ANOTHER PAIR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION THEN TO USING THE PAIR --
THE EXTRA LARGE PAIR THAT THE COURT KEPT IN ITS CUSTODY
YESTERDAY FOR YOUR DEMONSTRATION, SO THERE IS NO QUESTION, NOBODY
HAS PUT THESE GLOVES ON?
MR. DARDEN: LET ME TAKE A LOOK AT THEM.
MR. COCHRAN: WAIT A MINUTE. IS HE QUESTIONING THE COURT?
MR. DARDEN: NO, I'M NOT QUESTIONING THE COURT. YOU HAVE A
PAIR OF GLOVES. I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT THEM.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: I'M SURE THERE WON'T BE A PROBLEM, BUT I WOULD
LIKE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THEM.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE COURT AND THE CLERK.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SAY ONE OTHER THING?
THE COURT: I DO AGREE WITH MR. COCHRAN'S POINT, THOUGH,
THAT A FOUNDATION WILL NEED TO BE LAID WHETHER OR NOT THESE ARE
IN FACT, AS REPRESENTED BY MR. RUBIN, TO BE FROM THAT PARTICULAR
RUN, THE BROSSIER STITCHING, THE SIZING, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
THE COURT: IF YOU LAY THAT FOUNDATION, THEN I WILL ALLOW
THE USE OF THESE NEW GLOVES.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR --
THE COURT: IF THERE IS A DEMONSTRATION, IF YOU DO REQUEST
THAT DEMONSTRATION TO TAKE PLACE, IT WILL TAKE PLACE AT THE
DIRECTION OF THE COURT.
I WILL DIRECT MR. SIMPSON WHAT TO DO AND NOT TO DO
AND COUNSEL WILL MAKE NO COMMENTS DURING THE COURSE OF THAT
DEMONSTRATION.
IS THAT CLEAR?
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: YOU MEAN TO MR. SIMPSON OR TO THE COURT?
THE COURT: EITHER.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. MAY I APPROACH?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
AND MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU WANT TO APPROACH?
MR. COCHRAN: SURE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: WILL THE COURT KINDLY LAY THE GROUND RULES FOR
US IN A LITTLE DETAIL AT SIDE BAR BEFORE --
THE COURT: NO. WHAT I WILL DO IS AFTER MR. RUBIN HAS
TESTIFIED TO THE FOUNDATION, IF I'M SATISFIED WITH THE
FOUNDATION, THEN I WILL ALLOW ANY OTHER COMMENT AT SIDE BAR.
IF I OVERRULE ANY OBJECTIONS THAT EXIST AT THAT TIME,
I WILL HAVE MR. SIMPSON STEP OVER TO THE PODIUM, HAVE HIM TRY ON
THOSE TWO EXEMPLAR GLOVES, THE EXTRA LARGE THAT THE COURT KEPT,
AND I WILL DIRECT HIM TO PUT THEM ON AND THEN TO REMOVE THEM.
MR. COCHRAN: WOULD THE COURT --
THE COURT: WITH NO COMMENT FROM COUNSEL OR MR. SIMPSON.
MR. COCHRAN: WILL THE COURT ALLOW, DURING THE FOUNDATIONAL
PHASE AT LEAST, BEFORE THE DEMONSTRATION, A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS
OF MR. RUBIN?
WOULD THE COURT ALLOW THAT, IN FAIRNESS?
THE COURT: I WILL ALLOW YOU TO TAKE HIM ON VOIR DIRE FOR
THAT PURPOSE, FOR THE FOUNDATIONAL PURPOSE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN -- I'M SORRY.
MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? I MAY WANT
TO LODGE AN OBJECTION.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, OUR ONLY CONCERN ABOUT HAVING MR.
SIMPSON, WHO SEEMS TO BE IN A RATHER ANIMATED MOOD TODAY, IS THAT
TO HAVE HIM COME OVER TO THE PODIUM AND PUT THE GLOVES ON IS THAT
HE WILL MAKE FACIAL GESTURES AND OTHER TYPES OF THINGS IN FRONT
OF THIS JURY.
THE COURT: WELL, COUNSEL, THE PROBLEM IS WHAT THE JURY
NEEDS TO SEE IS THE FIT OF THE GLOVES. THE JURY NEEDS TO SEE MR.
SIMPSON AND HE NEEDS TO BE CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE JURY PANEL SO THAT
THEY CAN SEE HIM.
AND THE JURY CAN TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT OTHER
GESTURES OR FACIAL EXPRESSIONS MR. SIMPSON MAKES DURING THE
COURSE OF THAT AND DETERMINING HIS CREDIBILITY -- WELL, NOT
DETERMINING HIS
CREDIBILITY -- BUT IN EVALUATING THIS DEMONSTRATION.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
THE COURT: BUT I'M NOT GOING TO DIRECT HIM NOT TO MAKE ANY
COMMENTS AND NOT TO MAKE ANY OVERT GESTURES TO THE JURY.
MR. COCHRAN: AND THE SAME THING WITH THE LAWYERS, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: I'M GOING TO HAVE THE LAWYERS SEATED DURING THE
COURSE OF THE DEMONSTRATION.
MR. DARDEN: TO ALLOW HIM TO ACT IN FRONT OF JURY --
THE COURT: I'M NOT ALLOWING HIM TO ACT, COUNSEL. I'M
GOING TO DIRECT HIM WHERE TO STAND, WHAT TO DO, WHERE TO TURN.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, COULD THE RECORD REFLECT THAT
MR. RUBIN IS MEASURING YOUR HONOR'S GLOVES?
THE COURT: YES, YES.
ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE?
MR. COCHRAN: UMM --
THE COURT: I'M AFRAID TO ASK.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR? THANK
YOU.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN INDICATES THAT YOUR EXTRA LARGE IS A
LITTLE SMALLER THAN MY EXTRA LARGE.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS PRECISELY THE POINT AND
THAT IS WHY THIS DEMONSTRATION IS BOGUS AND THE COURT KNOWS YOU
KEPT THIS EXTRA LARGE.
I MADE THAT REPRESENTATION TO YOU. YOU MAY WANT TO
TAKE SOME TESTIMONY FROM MR. RUBIN, YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO
THESE GLOVES. THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE. THERE
IS THESE THREE DIFFERENT SIZES.
AND NOBODY HAS EVER TRIED THESE GLOVES ON, BUT YOU
GET THIS LOT OUT HERE AND IT IS A REAL PROBLEM FOR US.
THE COURT: LET SEE WHAT THE TESTIMONY IS, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE DO THAT?
MR. DARDEN: AFTER MR. SIMPSON PUTS ON THE COURT'S PAIR, IS
THERE ANY REASON WHY HE CAN'T PUT ON MY PAIR?
THE COURT: WE'LL SEE. LET'S SEE WHAT KIND OF FOUNDATION
YOU LAY FOR THESE GLOVES.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS NOT A MODELING SHOW.
THIS IS A MURDER TRIAL.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, WE'LL PROCEED.
MR. DARDEN: IN ADDITION OF COURSE THE DEFENSE HAS A PAIR.
MR. COCHRAN: YES, THEY DO.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, ALSO I'M GOING TO EXPLAIN TO THE JURY
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF MATTERS THAT I HAD TO TAKE UP OUT OF THEIR
PRESENCE WHICH COUNTS FOR THE DELAY.
I WILL TELL THEM ABOUT THE DELAY THAT WE ARE GOING TO
HAVE TOMORROW BECAUSE OF THE HEARING WE ARE GOING TO HAVE WITH
DR. WEIR, AND THE DEFENSE WITNESSES WHO I DON'T RECOLLECT, THAT
WE WILL BE IN SESSION WITH THEM TOMORROW AFTERNOON.
THAT IS THE BAD NEWS.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE PROSECUTION HAS ANNOUNCED
THAT THEY WILL TRY TO WIND UP BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK.
ALL RIGHT. SO THE JURY WILL HAVE SOME LIGHT AT THE
END OF THE TUNNEL.
ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS,
PLEASE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: AND MR. DARDEN, WILL YOU MARK ON THE LABEL OF
THE COURT'S PAIR ON THE INSIDE OF THE LABEL, OF THE ATTACHED
LABEL, "COURT," SO WE KNOW WHICH ONE IS WHICH.
MR. DARDEN: I HAVE DONE SO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
PLEASE BE SEATED.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY
ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
THE COURT: FIRST OF ALL, MY APOLOGIES TO YOU FOR HAVING
KEPT YOU WAITING SO LONG THIS MORNING, AND ALSO FOR NOT BEING IN
SESSION YESTERDAY AFTERNOON.
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I HAD TO TAKE UP
OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE, AND IT TOOK LONGER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD,
OBVIOUSLY.
ALSO, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, TOMORROW MORNING I'M
GOING TO BE CONDUCTING ANOTHER HEARING OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE
REGARDING SOME POTENTIAL EVIDENCE AND THAT WILL PROBABLY TAKE THE
ENTIRE MORNING SESSION, SO WE WILL NOT BE CALLING YOU BACK HERE
TO THE COURTROOM UNTIL TOMORROW AFTERNOON, SO THAT IS THE BAD
NEWS.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT I'VE BEEN INFORMED BY THE
PROSECUTION THAT THEY ANTICIPATE CONCLUDING THE PRESENTATION OF
THEIR CASE IN CHIEF BY THE END OF NEXT END, SO WE ARE MAKING SOME
PROGRESS AND HOPEFULLY WE WILL BE ABLE TO WIND THIS UP, AT LEAST
AS FAR AS THE FIRST HALF OF THE CASE IS CONCERNED.
ALL RIGHT.
JUST TO KEEP YOU APPRISED AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON, WE
ARE MAKING PROGRESS, AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS SOME OF THESE
THINGS THAT I HAVE TO TAKE UP OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE.
SO I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND. MY APOLOGIES TO YOU, BUT
WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE AS MUCH PROGRESS AS IS POSSIBLE.
ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
GOOD MORNING.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, THE PEOPLE CALL MR. RUBIN BACK TO
THE STAND.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
AND I RELEASED MR. RUBIN AGAIN LAST TIME, SO WE NEED
TO RESWEAR HIM.
RICHARD RUBIN, (RECALLED)
RECALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY
SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
THE CLERK: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE
IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH,
THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT ON THE WITNESS STAND AND
STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: RICHARD RUBIN, R-U-B-I-N.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q GOOD MORNING, MR. RUBIN.
A GOOD MORNING, MR. DARDEN.
Q MR. RUBIN, YOU RETURNED TO LOS ANGELES AT MY REQUEST?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND WHEN DID YOU ARRIVE BACK IN L.A.?
A A LITTLE AFTER EIGHT O'CLOCK LAST NIGHT.
Q WERE YOU BROUGHT TO MY OFFICE?
A YES, I WAS.
Q DID WE MEET AND TALK?
A YES, WE DID.
Q DID I SHE YOU SOME OBJECTS OR ITEMS IN MY OFFICE LAST
NIGHT?
A YES, YOU DID.
Q WHAT DID I SHOW YOU?
A YOU SHOWED ME FOUR DIFFERENT PAIR OF ARIS LIGHTS
GLOVES.
Q AND WHAT WERE THE SIZES OF THOSE GLOVES?
A I BELIEVE ONE WAS A SMALL, ONE WAS A LARGE AND TWO
WERE EXTRA LARGE.
Q OKAY. DID YOU SEE A MEDIUM?
A AND ALSO A MEDIUM.
Q OKAY. SO YOU SAW FIVE PAIRS OF GLOVES?
A YES.
Q SHOWING YOU A PAIR OF ARIS LEATHER LIGHT GLOVES, MAY
THESE BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER?
THE CLERK: 401.
THE COURT: 401.
MR. DARDEN: 401.
(PEO'S 401 FOR ID = PAIR OF BROWN LEATHER GLOVES)
MR. DARDEN: AND I AM INDICATING 401 ON THE INSIDE OF THE
TAG, YOUR HONOR.
Q SHOWING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED PEOPLE'S 401 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.
A YES.
Q YOU DIDN'T SEE THOSE GLOVES IN MY OFFICE LAST NIGHT,
DID YOU?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THOSE GLOVES?
A THREE, FOUR MINUTES AGO.
Q I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE GLOVES,
IF YOU WILL.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
YES.
Q AND DO YOU HAVE FRESH IN YOUR MIND THE STYLE AND
APPEARANCE OF THE ROCKINGHAM AND BUNDY GLOVE?
A YES, I DO.
Q THOSE GLOVES WERE ARIS LEATHER LIGHTS; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A YES, THEY WERE.
Q WHAT IS THE MAKE AND STYLE OF THE GLOVES IN YOUR
HAND?
A THIS IS ARIS LEATHER LIGHT STYLE 70263, BROWN, EXTRA
LARGE.
Q NOW, THE GLOVES YOU SAW FROM ROCKINGHAM AND BUNDY,
WERE THEY EXTRA LARGE GLOVES?
A THE LEFT GLOVE THAT I SAW WAS DEFINITELY AN EXTRA
LARGE.
Q AND THE OTHER ONE?
A IN ITS CURRENT CONDITION I BELIEVE IT IS CLOSER TO A
LARGE THAN AN EXTRA LARGE OR IT IS A VERY SMALL EXTRA LARGE AT
THIS POINT IN TIME.
Q OKAY.
AND WAS THERE SOME UNIQUE KIND OF STITCHING ON THE
ROCKINGHAM AND BUNDY GLOVE?
A YES, THERE WAS.
Q WHAT KIND OF STITCHING WAS THAT?
A IT IS CALLED BROSSIER STITCHING. IT IS A VERY FINE
WHIP STITCH.
Q AND THE STITCHING ON THE GLOVES IN YOUR HAND NOW
MARKED PEOPLE'S 401?
A IS THE SAME.
Q OKAY. SAME COLOR?
A SAME COLOR, BROWN, VERY -- SLIGHT DIFFERENT SHADE,
BUT THE COLORS DO VARY BETWEEN PAIRS.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: SO IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THE
GLOVES MARKED 401 ARE THE SAME MAKE, MODEL STYLE AND STYLE AS THE
GLOVE FROM ROCKINGHAM AND BUNDY?
A YES, THEY ARE.
Q NOW, WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THE GLOVES THERE IN FRONT OF
YOU?
A THESE ARE EXTRA LARGE.
Q OKAY.
AND THIS IS A TAG THAT INDICATES THAT THEY ARE EXTRA
LARGE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, BOTH INSIDE THE GLOVE AND OUTSIDE THE GLOVE.
Q NOW, DURING THE BREAK THIS MORNING DID YOU MEASURE
MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
A YES, I DID.
Q OKAY.
WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY HOW YOU CONDUCTED
THAT MEASUREMENT?
A BASICALLY I TOOK MY RIGHT HAND AND PUT IT UP AGAINST
MR. SIMPSON'S LEFT HAND. I TOOK A PEN FROM MY POCKET AND I PUT
THE PEN IN THE CROTCH OF MR. SIMPSON'S FINGER AND I SLID MY HAND
UP AGAINST HIS HAND TO GIVE ME A FINGER LENGTH MEASUREMENT.
AFTER THAT I THEN TOOK A NORMAL SOFT TAPE MEASURE,
PUT IT IN THE PALM OF MR. SIMPSON'S HAND, MOVED THE RULER OVER TO
THE TEN-INCH MARK, WRAPPED THE ACTUAL SOFT TAPE MEASURE AROUND
THE HAND, THUS GIVING ME THE APPROXIMATE CIRCUMFERENCE OF HIS
LEFT HAND AND HIS RIGHT HAND, WHICH IS THE CONVENTIONAL WAY THAT
WE WOULD MEASURE SOMEONE'S GLOVES FOR SIZE.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, COULD I HAVE MR. RUBIN STEP DOWN
AND SHOW THE JURY HOW HE CONDUCTED THESE MEASUREMENTS, USING MR.
BELL?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
MR. DARDEN: MR. BELL.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH JUST FOR A MOMENT, YOUR
HONOR?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WITH THE REPORTER.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: ON THE RECORD.
MR. COCHRAN: MY OBJECTION IS THAT THE COURT RECALLS THAT
WE SAID THAT -- YOU KNOW, DANCING AROUND WITH ALL THIS STUFF.
I JUST DON'T SEE THAT AS BEING THAT IMPORTANT, AND IF
THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS, LET THEM DO IT IN FRONT
OF THE JURY BUT WHY IS BELL RELEVANT?
IT IS A RELEVANCE OBJECTION. AND IF HE WANTS TO DO
THAT, THAT IS FINE, BUT I'M JUST SAYING THAT WE OBJECT.
I MEAN, MR. SIMPSON HAS A RIGHT TO GO OVER AND HAPPY
TO DESCRIBE IT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
ALL HE IS SHOWING IS MEASURING TECHNIQUES HERE. HE
CAN SHOWN IT ON MISS CLARK IF HE WANTS.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE HAS LITTLE GLOVES.
MS. CLARK: I'LL SUBMIT IT. I'M EXTRA SMALL. IT IS
RIDICULOUS.
THE COURT: I EXPECT YOU TO DO THE SAME THING WITH MR.
SIMPSON, BUT IT IS RELEVANT, SO THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, COUNSEL.
MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN, IF YOU WOULD STEP DOWN AND
SHOW THE JURY THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU MEASURED MR. SIMPSON'S
HANDS.
MR. BELL, IF YOU WOULD ASSIST, PLEASE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ALSO PRESENT IS MR. KENNETH BELL.
THE WITNESS: BASICALLY I TOOK HIS LEFT HAND --
MR. DARDEN: YOU CAN'T TURN YOUR BACK TO THE JURY.
THE WITNESS: SORRY.
TOOK HIS LEFT HAND AND I PUT MY RIGHT HAND UP AGAINST
IT.
WILL YOU HOLD THIS, PLEASE.
I FIRST TOOK MY PEN AND PUT IT IN THE ACTUAL CROTCH
OF MR. SIMPSON'S FINGERS AND SLID MY HAND UP TO CORRECTLY A GET
ALIGNMENT AS TO ATTEMPTING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SIZE MR. SIMPSON'S
FINGERS WERE IN COMPARISON TO MINE.
THE COURT: MR. RUBIN, MR. BELL, COULD YOU THEN TURN AROUND
BECAUSE THE JURORS ON THAT END OF THE BOX CAN'T SEE.
THERE YOU GO.
THE WITNESS: IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE MY FINGERS ARE
SLIGHTLY LONGER THAN MR. BELL'S.
THEN USING THIS TAPE MEASURE, I TOOK THE PALM, I
MOVED THE TAPE MEASURE RIGHT UNDER THE KNUCKLE AREA. THIS IS
WHERE WE ACTUALLY MEASURE FOR A GLOVE SIZE, RIGHT ACROSS THIS
PARTICULAR AREA.
I TOOK THE MEASURE TO MAKE IT EASY ON MYSELF TO
AROUND THE TEN MARK. I WRAPPED IT AROUND.
AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE MR. BELL IS ABOUT NINE
AND 5/8 INCHES, AS FAR AS CIRCUMFERENCE IN THE HAND, AND I DID
THIS PROCEDURE ON BOTH, BOTH HANDS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. RUBIN, MR. BELL, WOULD YOU MOVE DOWN TO THIS END
OF THE JURY BOX. THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO SEE THAT DEMONSTRATION.
THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. BELL'S LEFT HAND IS NINE AND 5/8?
A YES.
Q WOULD YOU SHOW THE JURY THE PROCESS USING MR. BELL'S
RIGHT HAND.
THE COURT: THAT MAY BE A BETTER ANGLE FOR THESE JURORS.
THE WITNESS: ONCE AGAIN, JUST WHERE THE HAND BREAKS IS
WHERE WE MORE OR LESS MEASURE. FOR CONVENIENCE I MOVED IT UP TO
TEN, I WRAPPED THE TAPE MEASURE AROUND AND IT COME TO ABOUT 9 AND
A HALF.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 795, CAN YOU SEE THAT?
JUROR NO. 795: YES.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
THE WITNESS: WHICH IS A NINE AND A HALF, APPROXIMATELY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MR. DARDEN.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. BELL IS NINE AND 5/8 AND NINE AND
A HALF; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT. LET ME SAY THIS, WITHIN AN EIGHTH OF
AN INCH OR SO. IT DEPENDS UPON EXACTLY HOW SNUGLY YOU PULL THE
TAPE, BUT VERY, VERY CLOSE, YES.
Q AND MR. SIMPSON, WHAT WERE HIS MEASUREMENTS?
A ON THE LEFT HAND IT WAS NINE AND A HALF AND ON THE
RIGHT HAND IT WAS NINE AND 5/8.
Q MR. SIMPSON AND MR. BELL BASICALLY HAVE THE SAME SIZE
HANDS?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, IT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. THE
MEASUREMENTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MR. DARDEN: I WILL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
LOOKING AT THE GLOVE MARKED 401 --
A YES.
Q -- WOULD YOU EXPECT THAT A MAN HAVING THE HANDS --
HAVING HANDS THE SIZE OF MR. BELL AND MR. SIMPSON COULD PUT THAT
GLOVE ON THEIR HAND?
A THIS PARTICULAR PAIR?
Q YES.
A THIS PARTICULAR PAIR WILL GO ON EITHER ONE OF THOSE
HANDS, BUT IT IS GOING TO BE VERY, VERY TIGHT.
Q OKAY. WHY IS THAT?
A WELL, IN THE MANUFACTURING OF THESE PARTICULAR GLOVES
THEY ARE TABLE CUT BY HAND AND THERE IS A SLIGHT VARIANCE.
THE STANDARD FOR EXTRA LARGE IS TO FIT PERFECTLY NINE
AND A HALF INCH CIRCUMFERENCE AROUND THE HAND. THAT WOULD BE THE
PERFECT FIT.
AND BASICALLY THE GLOVE WOULD BE MANUFACTURED SO THAT
THERE IS NO EXCESS LEATHER PASSED THE NINE AND A HALF. THAT
WOULD BE A PERFECT NINE AND A HALF.
THIS PARTICULAR STYLE IS -- ALSO FIT A NINE AND A
HALF, BUT IT IS A LITTLE BIT ON THE SNUG SIDE AND IT IS ALSO A
LITTLE BIT SHORT AND THAT IS WHAT GAVE ME THAT INDICATION. THIS
WOULD BE ON THE SMALL SIZE OF EXTRA LARGE.
ON THE LARGE SIZE OF EXTRA LARGE, THE GLOVE WOULD
ACTUALLY FIT SOMEONE UP TO A SIZE 10 IN CIRCUMFERENCE.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU TESTIFIED LAST WEEK THAT THESE GLOVES WERE
DESIGNED TO GIVE A SNUG FIT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, THEY ARE.
Q OKAY.
WHEN YOU PURCHASE GLOVES FOR THE FIRST TIME AND PUT
YOUR HAND IN THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME, DO THEY TEND TO BE TIGHTER
ON YOUR HAND THAN THEY WILL BE LATER?
A THEY SHOULD BE.
Q OKAY.
AND AFTER YOU HAVE WORN A PAIR OF GLOVES, LET'S SAY
ONCE, DO THOSE GLOVES BECOME LOOSER?
A GRADUALLY OVER TIME THE GLOVES, AS YOU MOVE YOUR HAND
BACK AND FORTH, THE LEATHER WILL STRETCH, THE GLOVES WILL GET A
LITTLE BIT LOOSER, YES.
Q BUT THEY CAN ALSO SHRINK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THE ONLY TIME THEY WOULD ACTUALLY SHRINK WOULD BE IF
THEY ARE EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS.
Q LIKE WATER?
A WATER.
Q AND IF THEY ARE EXPOSED TO BLOOD ALSO THEY SHRINK?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: NO FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: WHAT IF THE GLOVES ARE FROZEN?
MR. COCHRAN: RELEVANT.
MR. COCHRAN: IRRELEVANT, MATERIAL. ASSUME FACT NOT IN
EVIDENCE.
MR. DARDEN: OFFER OF PROOF.
THE COURT: OVERRULED?
THE WITNESS: I AM NOT A TECHNICIAN, BUT IF I WERE TO
SPECULATE --
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD ASK HIM NOT TO SPECULATE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
MR. DARDEN: IS THIS A SPEAKING OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: PROCEED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: WHAT IF THEY WERE WET AND THEN DRIED
AND THEN WET AGAIN AND THEN DRIED AGAIN?
A THEY WOULD SHRINK.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN, THE GENTLEMAN SEATED HERE
NEXT TO MR. BELL, MR. STEVENS --
A YES.
Q -- YOU MET MR. STEVENS WHEN YOU WERE HERE LAST WEEK?
A YES, I DID.
Q HAVE YOU MEASURED HIS HANDS?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q WHAT WERE THE MEASUREMENTS OF HIS HANDS?
MR. COCHRAN: ISSUE YOUR HONOR, THAT IS IRRELEVANT AND
IMMATERIAL.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: THE ARIS LEATHER LIGHTS HAVE A
CASHMERE LINING; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, THEY DO.
Q DOES CASHMERE SHRINK IF WET?
A YES, IT CAN.
Q OKAY.
WILL CASHMERE SHRINK IF NOT WET BUT AS IT AGES?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS WITHOUT A
FURTHER FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: IT SHOULD NOT.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU TEST THE GLOVES FROM BUNDY --
I'M SORRY. STRIKE THAT.
DID YOU EXAMINE THE GLOVES FROM BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM
TO SEE IF THE LININGS HAD SHRUNK AT ALL?
A IT WAS ACTUALLY DIFFICULT TO TELL. I LOOKED AT THE
LINING, BUT I REALLY COULDN'T DETERMINE WHETHER THE LINING HAD
SHRUNK.
Q AND YOU TESTIFIED LAST WEEK THAT IN THEIR ORIGINAL
FORM A SIZE EXTRA LARGE ARIS LEATHER LIGHT GLOVE WOULD FIT THE
DEFENDANT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, I DID.
Q DO YOU STILL HOLD THAT OPINION?
A YES, I DO.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, IF IT PLEASES THE COURT, I WOULD
LIKE TO HAVE MR. BELL TRY ON PEOPLE'S 401.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THAT IS IRRELEVANT
AND IMMATERIAL.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I APPROACH?
THE COURT: SURE. WITH THE COURT REPORTER,
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR.
MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, THE WITNESS WILL TESTIFY THAT MR.
BELL HAS THE SAME SIZE HAND AS THE DEFENDANT HAS.
AND OUR CONCERN IS THAT MR. SIMPSON IS JUST GOING TO
ACT OUT IN FRONT OF THE JURY AND ATTEMPT TO TESTIFY UNDER
CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE HE CAN'T BE CROSS-EXAMINED.
THAT IS SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY. BUT THE MEN BOTH
HAVE THE SAME SIZE HANDS.
THE COURT: I DON'T THINK THE RECORD SUPPORTS THAT, THOUGH,
BECAUSE MR. RUBIN INDICATED THAT MR. BELL'S FINGERS WERE ACTUALLY
SHORTER, SO I DON'T THINK THEY ARE THE SAME SIZE, SO I DON'T
THINK YOU HAVE A FOUNDATION TO DO THAT.
WE HAVE MR. SIMPSON HERE. HE'S THE RELEVANT FIT.
BUT IF YOU WANT THE DEMONSTRATION, IT WILL BE DONE AT
MY DIRECTION WITHOUT ANY COMMENT FROM ANY COUNSEL.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: OBVIOUSLY WE ARE CONCERNED THAT WE ARE JUST
--
MR. COCHRAN: FINE. WE ARE READY TO PROCEED, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: -- INVITING ANOTHER CIRCUS-LIKE SITUATION
INVOLVING THE DEFENDANT.
MR. COCHRAN: WE ACCEPT THAT.
THE COURT: WELL, I DON'T THINK MR. BELL'S HANDS ARE -- I'M
NOT CONVINCED THAT HE AND MR. SIMPSON HAVE THE SAME SIZE HANDS AT
THIS POINT.
AND BASED UPON MR. RUBIN'S TESTIMONY I DON'T THINK IT
IS AN APPROPRIATE DEMONSTRATION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: WAIT. I'M NOT FINISHED YET.
WE DO HAVE OUR OWN PAIR OF LETTER GLOVES WHICH HAVE
BEEN KEPT IN MY CUSTODY, SO MR. SIMPSON -- IT IS ANOTHER PAIR OF
GLOVES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ALTERED IN ANY WAY -- WHAT THE DEFENSE
CAN PUT ON MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS.
MR. COCHRAN: NO.
MR. DARDEN: AND THEY DO HAVE THEIR OWN PAIR OF GLOVES.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT FOR THE REASONS WE TALKED ABOUT,
YOUR HONOR.
THESE GLOVES ARE PRISTINE, AND AS I SAID, YOUR HONOR,
THIS DEMONSTRATION IS SPENDING MUCH MORE TIME THAN IT IS WORTH.
THE COURT HAS RULED AND I DON'T WANT TO USE THEIR
GLOVES. THEY HAVE BEEN TRIED ON BY OTHER PEOPLE AND IT IS NOT
RECOMMENDED TO HAVE SOMEBODY ELSE DO IT.
IT IS EITHER SIMPSON OR SOMEONE ELSE AND YOU HAVE SET
THE GROUND RULES AND I TAKE UMBRAGE ABOUT SIMPSON ACTING UP.
THE EVIDENCE NOW IS THAT THAT LEFT GLOVE WAS MORE
LIKE A LARGE, SO NO ONE WAS ACTING UP. THOSE GLOVES ARE SMALLER
AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, SO I WOULD JUST SUBMIT IT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. DARDEN: ADDITIONAL CONCERN I HAVE OF COURSE IS --
MR. SHAPIRO: ONE SECOND.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. DARDEN: PEOPLE USED TO SAY "PLEASE" WHERE I COME FROM.
MR. SHAPIRO: I'M SORRY.
MR. DARDEN: ANOTHER CONCERN OF COURSE IS THAT MR. SIMPSON
HAS ARTHRITIS AND WE LOOKED AT THE MEDICATION THAT HE TAKES AND
SOME OF IT IS ANTI-INFLAMMATORY AND WE ARE TOLD THAT HE HAS NOT
TAKEN THE STUFF FOR A DAY AND IT CAUSED SWELLING IN THE JOINTS
AND INFLAMMATION IN HIS HANDS AND I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE MAN HAS -- MY DEER FRIENDS
ARE BEING PARANOID, YOUR HONOR. THE MAN HAS MEDICINE. HE
DOESN'T WANT TO BE SICK.
AND THEY ARE DOING THIS, YOUR HONOR. WE HAVEN'T
ASKED TO DO THIS.
MR. COCHRAN: SO MAY WE PROCEED, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT?
THE COURT: SURE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE PROCEED, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: I BELIEVE MR. DARDEN WANTED --
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN, YOU HAVE YOUR OWN PAIR OF
ARIS LETTER LIGHTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, I DO.
Q DO THEY FIT YOU?
A YES, THEY DO.
Q WHEN YOU WERE HERE LAST NIGHT DID YOU PUT ON YOUR
PAIR OF LEATHER LIGHTS?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID THEY FIT?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU PUT ON LATEX GLOVES?
A YES.
Q DID YOU THEN ATTEMPT TO PUT YOUR LEATHER GLOVES ON?
A YES, I DID.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS --
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU THEN ATTEMPT TO PUT YOUR
GLOVES ON? DID YOU PUT ON A PAIR OF LATEX GLOVES AND THEN PUT
YOUR ARIS --
A YES, I DID.
Q -- GLOVES ON?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID YOU ENCOUNTER SOME DIFFICULTY IN DOING THAT?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. THIS IS LEADING AND
SUGGESTIVE AND ALL COVERED LAST TIME.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU TOLD US THAT MR. -- THAT MR.
SIMPSON HAS AN EXTRA LARGE GLOVE HAND; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE THE BOX THAT YOU -- FROM WHICH
YOU REMOVED LATEX GLOVES LAST WEEK?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND LOOKING AT THAT BOX, DOES IT INDICATE A SIZE, AS
THE SIZE OF THE LATEX GLOVES CONTAINED IN THAT BOX?
A SIZE LARGE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: NOT EXTRA LARGE?
A CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, IF IT PLEASES THE COURT, WE WOULD
LIKE TO HAVE MR. SIMPSON TRY ON THE GLOVES MARKED 401 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO QUESTION ON VOIR DIRE, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD MORNING, MR. RUBIN.
A GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN.
Q MR. RUBIN, SIR, WITH REGARD TO THE ARIS EXTRA LIGHT
GLOVES, THOSE PLACED BEFORE YOU THERE, AM I TO UNDERSTAND THAT
WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE GLOVE THERE IS SOME VARIANCE IN SIZE OF
THE EXTRA LARGE GLOVES MANUFACTURED BY ARIS ISOTONER?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AM I TO UNDERSTAND, SIR, THAT WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE
CATEGORY THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE DIFFERENT KINDS; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A I'VE ALWAYS CONSIDERED IT THAT WAY, YES.
Q AND WHAT ARE THE THREE DIFFERENT AREAS?
A THERE WOULD BE A PERFECT SIZE EXTRA LARGE, WHICH
WOULD BE THE BENCH MARK THAT EVERY CUTTER SHOULD TRY TO ACHIEVE
IN THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS.
THERE WOULD BE AN OVERSIZED EXTRA LARGE WHICH WOULD
BE A BY-PRODUCT OF A CUTTER LEAVING A LITTLE BIT TOO MUCH EXCESS
LEATHER IN THE PATTERN WHEN HE WAS ACTUALLY PRODUCING THE PRODUCT
AND THEN THERE WOULD BE AN UNDERSIZED EXTRA LARGE WHICH WOULD BE
THE EXACT REVERSE OF THE OVERSIZE WHERE THEY REALLY WERE TRYING
TO MAKE AN EXTRA LARGE GLOVE OUT OF A SIZE LARGE.
Q AND SO THIS VARIATION WAS WHAT YOU CAME TO EXPECT AS
AN EXPERT IN THE FIELD WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE AREA; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A IT WAS COMMERCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO WHEN YOU RECEIVED A PARTICULAR GLOVE, YOU
WOULDN'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAD GOTTEN -- THEY ALL SAY "EXTRA
LARGE" ON THEM, DON'T THEY?
A ALL THREE OF THOSE WOULD.
Q THEY ALL SAY "EXTRA LARGE" AND YOU WOULDN'T KNOW
WHETHER IT WAS A PERFECT EXTRA LARGE OR AN OVERSIZE EXTRA LARGE
OR A SNUG EXTRA LARGE UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY PUT IT ON YOUR HAND; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON IN AMERICA
EVEN KNOWS WHAT SIZE THEY ARE, SO UNLESS YOUR PERCEPTION WAS THAT
IT FELT GOOD OR THAT IT FIT WELL, THE PERCEPTION BECOMES REALITY.
MR. COCHRAN: I UNDERSTAND.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT.
THIS IS IMPROPER VOIR DIRE. THIS IS CROSS.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. GOES TO FOUNDATION.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO THAT THIS WHOLE AREA OF TRYING ON
GLOVES AND GLOVE MAKING IS PART SCIENCE, PART CRAFT; WOULD THAT
BE CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND SO YOU WOULD HAVE TO LIKE PUT YOUR HAND IN AND
FEEL IT TO MAKE A DETERMINATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND SO YOU CANNOT SAY THAT THE GLOVES BEFORE YOU
THERE -- WHICH I GUESS ARE MARKED NOW 401, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 401.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO YOU CANNOT SAY THAT THESE GLOVES
BEFORE YOU, PEOPLE'S 401, WERE CUT BY THE SAME PERSON AS THE
GLOVES WE SAW IN THIS CASE, ITEMS 9 AND ITEMS 37, CAN YOU?
A I CANNOT FROM THE OUTSIDE TELL THAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THE -- THESE GLOVES ARE MADE IN THE PHILIPPINES;
IS THAT CORRECT?
A IN MANILA.
Q IN MANILA?
A YES.
Q WITH REGARD TO THOSE GLOVES BEFORE YOU, ITEMS 401,
YOU LOOKED AT THE GLOVES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, I HAVE.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND WITH REGARD TO -- WITH REGARD TO
THESE PARTICULAR GLOVES HERE, 401 FOR IDENTIFICATION, WE KNOW,
ACCORDING TO THE LABEL, THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS AN EXTRA
LARGE ON THE OUTSIDE, RIGHT?
A CORRECT.
Q BUT THAT DOESN'T TELL YOU WHETHER THEY ARE A SNUG,
OVERSIZE OR PERFECT?
A IT DOES NOT.
Q RIGHT.
AND THAT REGARDING THESE ARIS LIGHTS, WE SEE A STYLE
NUMBER AND A COLOR; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND FROM LOOKING AT THE OUTSIDE THERE CAN YOU TELL US
WHEN THOSE PARTICULAR GLOVES THERE, 401, WERE MADE?
A I CANNOT.
Q SO -- AND WITH REGARD TO THOSE GLOVES THERE, 401, YOU
CAN'T TELL US WHETHER THEY ARE MADE AT THE SAME TIME OR IN THE
SAME YEAR AS THE GLOVES THAT WE HAVE IN THIS CASE THAT MR.
SIMPSON ATTEMPTED TO TRY ON LAST THURSDAY, CAN YOU?
A I CANNOT.
Q AS I UNDERSTAND AND UNDERSTOOD YOUR TESTIMONY, DID
YOU TELL US THAT THE LEFT GLOVE OF THE GLOVES THAT WERE TRIED ON
LAST WEEK, THE SO-CALLED BUNDY GLOVE, THAT THAT LEFT GLOVE WAS
NOW, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO YOUR ESTIMATION, I BELIEVE YOU TRIED
IT ON, WAS NOW PERHAPS A LARGE OR JUST A LITTLE BIT LARGER THAN A
LARGE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT IS WHAT I SAID.
Q AND THAT THE RIGHT GLOVE, THE
APPEARANCE -- FROM APPEARANCES IN YOUR EXAMINATION, WAS LARGER
THAN THE LEFT BUT THE LEFT WAS THE SMALLER OF THE TWO?
A IT IS DIFFICULT TO CALCULATE IT, BUT IT APPEARED THAT
WAY FROM JUST HAVING IT ON MY HAND BRIEFLY.
Q AND MR. RUBIN, YOU CAN'T TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT THE
SIZE OF THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE BACK IN JUNE OF 1994, CAN YOU?
A THEY WERE DESIGNED TO BE AN EXTRA LARGE. I DO NOT
KNOW THE EXACT SIZING AS OF JUNE, 1994.
Q ARE YOU AWARE AND DID YOU BECOME AWARE TODAY THAT THE
GLOVES IN THIS CASE, ITEMS 9 AND ITEMS 37, WERE MEASURED BY A
SUSAN BROCKBANK OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT ON OR ABOUT
JUNE 21ST, 1994?
A YES, I AM AWARE OF THAT.
Q YOU BECAME AWARE OF THAT TODAY?
A I BELIEVE I BECAME AWARE LAST EVENING.
Q AND WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE RELEVANT -- WELL, STRIKE
THAT.
WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVES THAT ARE BEFORE YOU NOW,
ITEMS 401, YOU HAVE NOT TODAY, HAVE YOU, COMPARED THE GLOVES
BEFORE YOU WITH THE GLOVES IN EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, HAVE YOU?
A I HAVE NOT.
Q BUT YOU CAN TELL US, AS AN EXPERT, THAT THE GLOVES
THAT ARE IN EVIDENCE ARE SMALLER THAN THE GLOVES BEFORE YOU;
ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES, THEY ARE.
Q FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY ARE SMALLER; ISN'T THAT
CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, COUNSEL ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS
CONCEPT OF SHRINKAGE.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVES THAT YOU SAW LAST WEEK
AND THE GLOVES IN EVIDENCE HERE, YOU CANNOT TELL THIS JURY
WHETHER THOSE GLOVES WERE SHRUNK IN 1990, 1991, '92?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THIS IS NOT --
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: '93, '94, CAN YOU?
A NO, I CANNOT.
Q AND YOU CANNOT TELL THIS JURY THE CONDITION OF THE
GLOVES IN EVIDENCE AS OF JUNE 12TH, 1994; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I CANNOT.
Q ALL YOU KNOW IS THAT THERE WERE MEASUREMENTS TAKEN ON
JUNE 21ST, 1994, AND THE MEASUREMENTS AND THE APPEARANCE AND YOUR
PUTTING YOUR HAND IN THOSE GLOVES MAKE YOU KNOW THEY ARE
SUBSTANTIALLY SMALLER THAN THOSE GLOVES BEFORE YOU THERE, 401;
ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I WOULD LIKE TO RESERVE JUDGMENT UNTIL I COULD SEE
THE OTHER GLOVES NEXT TO THESE AND I HAVE NOT MEASURED THE OTHER
GLOVES MYSELF, SO I REALLY CAN'T SAY.
Q BUT YOU'VE ALREADY TOLD US THAT YOU TRIED ON THE LEFT
GLOVE.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU TOLD US THAT IT IS NOW A LARGE OR A LITTLE
MORE THAN LARGE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I BELIEVE THAT THOSE GLOVES ARE DEFINITELY SHORTER
BUT MAY NOT BE THAT MUCH DIFFERENT IN THE PALM AREA.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE SHRINKAGE THAT COUNSEL
BROUGHT UP, WHEN GLOVES SHRINK, THEY SHRINK FROM NORTH TO SOUTH,
DON'T THEY?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q THAT IS ONE OF YOUR TERMS, IS IT NOT, NORTH TO SOUTH?
A YES.
Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS IMPROPER VOIR DIRE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT DOES NORTH TO SOUTH MEAN?
WOULD YOU SHOW THE JURY?
A WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT IN THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS
THE GLOVES ARE ACTUALLY STRETCHED OVER A PATTERN TO CREATE THE
LENGTH AND THEN THAT PIECE OF LEATHER IS THEN STRETCHED TO THE
WIDTH.
WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET ENOUGH LEATHER IN WIDTH
WHICH WHEN STRETCHED NORTH/SOUTH CREATES THE EXACT PERFECT SIZE
WITH NO EXCESS LETTER ON THE EDGES.
PRETTY MUCH, THOUGH, TO GET A SIZE NINE AND A HALF
EXTRA LARGE GLOVE IN THIS TYPE OF WEIGHT OF LEATHER, WHAT YOU
WOULD HAVE TO DO WHEN YOU STRETCHED IT TO THE WIDTH, YOU WOULD
REQUIRE AN ADDITIONAL ONE AND ONE-HALF INCH WHICH IS CALLED AN
ALLOWANCE, SO TO GET A PERFECT NINE AND A HALF, YOU WOULD
ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE 11 INCHES OF LEATHER IN A SQUARE LEFT TO
RIGHT AND THEN WHEN YOU WENT NORTH TO SOUTH YOU WOULD COME UP TO
ABOUT 10 AND 3/8, 10 AND A HALF INCHES, AND YOU WOULD HAVE A
PERFECT EXTRA LARGE.
AND WHAT HAPPENS IS BECAUSE IT IS CUT TO THE WIDTH
AND STRETCHED TO THE LENGTH, WHEN IT SHRINKS THE GLOVE WILL COME
DOWN IN LENGTH, BUT NOT SO MUCH DOWN HERE IN THE BODY.
Q NOT IN WIDTH, IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO US?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WITH REGARD TO GLOVES, SUCH AS THE GLOVES IN EVIDENCE
HERE, THEY CAN BE STRETCHED -- STRIKE THAT.
ONCE THEY'VE BEEN SHRINKED -- THAT IS A TERRIBLE WORD
-- ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN SHRUNK, THEY CAN -- ONCE THEY HAVE BEEN
SHRUNK THEY CAN BE BROUGHT BACK TO THEIR NORMAL SIZE BY CONTINUAL
USAGE OF PEOPLE PUTTING THEIR HANDS IN THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THEY CANNOT REALLY COME ALL THE WAY BACK.
Q SOME OF THE WAY BACK?
A A GOOD PORTION, DEPENDING ON HOW LONG THEY WERE WET,
HOW THEY WERE DRIED, WHAT TEMPERATURE CONDITIONS, HOW MUCH LIQUID
OF ANY TYPE WAS ABSORBED INTO THE LEATHER, BECAUSE THESE
PARTICULAR LEATHERS ARE NAKED. IN OTHER WORDS, THESE LEATHERS
CAN'T BE ABSORBED.
Q WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE, YOU HAVE NO
KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT IF ANY LIQUID MAY HAVE BEEN ON THOSE GLOVES AND
HOW MUCH, DO YOU?
A I DO NOT KNOW, NO.
Q WITH REGARD TO GLOVES SUCH AS 401 AND THE GLOVES THAT
MR. DARDEN HAS HERE, THOSE GLOVES, IF A BIG -- IF A BIG PERSON,
SUCH AS THESE TWO GENTLEMEN HERE, MESSERS. BELL AND STEVENS, PUTS
THEIR HANDS IN SOME OF THESE GLOVES, AN EXTRA LARGE GLOVE, THEY
WOULD TEND TO STRETCH THOSE GLOVES, DON'T THEY?
A NOT INITIALLY. THEY WOULD HAVE TO WEAR THEM SOME
TIME BEFORE THEY WOULD ACTUALLY STRETCH. THEY WOULD HAVE TO OPEN
AND CLOSE THEIR HAND QUITE A FEW TIMES. THIS IS WHAT REALLY
STRETCHES A GLOVE.
WHEN YOU OPEN AND CLOSE YOUR HAND, YOUR KNUCKLES
BECOME QUITE BROAD. THAT IS WHAT CREATES THE STRETCH.
MR. COCHRAN: FOR THE RECORD HE WAS MOVING HIS HANDS UP
AND DOWN.
Q BUT THIS MORNING IN THIS BUILDING YOU SAW THESE
GENTLEMAN TRY ON GLOVES THAT YOU RECEIVED YESTERDAY FROM ARIS?
A I SAW THEM TRY ON ONE PAIR OF GLOVES.
THE COURT: I THINK WE ARE BEYOND THE SCOPE.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT, YOUR HONOR.
MAY I HAVE JUST A MINUTE, YOUR HONOR?
THANK YOU.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD --
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. JUST A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE EXTRA LARGE THAT IS BEFORE
YOU, IS IT CORRECT THAT 99.5 PERCENT --
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THIS IS IRRELEVANT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: -- OF ALL MALES IN AMERICA --
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: -- ARE -- MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION,
YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: I OVERRULED THE OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
Q IS IT CORRECT, SIR, THAT 99.5 PERCENT OF ALL MALES IN
AMERICA COULD WEAR AN EXTRA LARGE GLOVE?
A YES.
Q THAT IS EXPECTED, ISN'T IT?
A YES.
Q IN THAT PRISTINE CONDITION BEFORE YOU THERE --
A A PERFECT EXTRA LARGE. VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BE
DOUBLE XL IN SIZE, THAT WOULD REQUIRE A LARGER GLOVE THAN AN
EXTRA LARGE.
THE GLOVES MIGHT FIT TIGHT ON SOME, PERFECT ON
OTHERS, A LITTLE LOOSE ON OTHERS, BUT BASICALLY ANYBODY THAT IS
SMALLER THAN AN EXTRA LARGE IN SIZE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET
THEIR HAND IN THE GLOVES.
Q LIKE 99.5 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q MALE POPULATION, RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR, JUST A MOMENT?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR.
MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: YOU JUST SAID THAT ONCE YOU GAVE ME THE VOIR
DIRE OPPORTUNITY THAT I COULD RENEW MY OBJECTION.
AND JUST THAT THE LAST QUESTION I ASKED, YOU KNOW, I
JUST FAIL TO SEE, IF THEY STILL WANT TO GO FORWARD WITH IT, HOW
THIS BECOMES RELEVANT.
AND I WOULD JUST LIKE TO BRIEFLY STATE IT, YOUR
HONOR, IF YOUR HONOR WOULD ALLOW ME, THAT THERE ARE THREE
DIFFERENT SIZES WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE.
THE COURT: I HEARD THE TESTIMONY.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
THE COURT: I HEARD THE TESTIMONY.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT FITS 99.5 PERCENT AND THAT HE HAS
ALREADY TOLD, YOUR HONOR, THAT THE LEFT GLOVE, THE BUNDY GLOVE,
IS DOWN TO ALMOST A LARGE SIZE.
I MEAN, THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, FOR
WHATEVER REASON, WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVES HERE, AND SO I THINK
UNDER THE SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY TEST YOU LAID OUT THE GROUND
RULES, BUT I WOULD JUST RENEW MY OBJECTION.
BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS FAIR AND THAT IS THE WHOLE
ISSUE. I DON'T THINK IT IS A A FAIR TEST, BUT WE WILL SEE.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, OBVIOUSLY THE TEST IS SUBSTANTIAL
SIMILARITY AND I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT
THOSE GLOVES COULD HAVE BEEN WORN BY THE DEFENDANT, OKAY?
EXCUSE ME.
OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE EXTRA LARGE GLOVES. OBVIOUSLY THE
DEFENDANT'S BLOOD AND THE VICTIM'S BLOOD ARE ON THOSE GLOVES AND
OBVIOUSLY THOSE GLOVES WERE TRANSPORTED TO THE MURDER SCENE AND
THEY WERE USED ON THE COMMISSION OF THAT MURDER, OKAY?
SO OBVIOUSLY THOSE GLOVES WERE USED DURING THE
COMMISSION OF THE MURDER. THEY ARE BOTH EXTRA LARGES, THAT IS
THE CRIME SCENE GLOVES AND THE GLOVES THAT WE HAVE HERE, AND IN
FACT THESE GLOVES MAY BE A LITTLE SMALLER THAN THOSE WERE
ORIGINALLY. THEY MAY NOT BE THE EXACT SAME SIZE, BUT THAT ISN'T
THE TEST, AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT PERFECT EXTRA LARGES,
THEN THAT IS TO THE DEFENDANT'S BENEFIT.
BUT IN ANY EVENT, WE HAVE CLEARLY MET OUR BURDEN IN
TERMS OF SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY AND I DON'T KNOW WHY MR. COCHRAN
IS SO AFRAID TO HAVE THIS MAN PUT THESE GLOVES ON.
AT SOME POINT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A PICTURE OF HIM
WITH THE GLOVES ON, SO HEY, YOU KNOW, WHY WE ARE BURNING UP ALL
THIS PAPER?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE IN ANYTHING OF A
PERSONAL NATURE. I'M JUST DOING THE BEST JOB I CAN FOR MY
CLIENT.
ALL I'M SAYING, AND COUNSEL MISSES THE POINT, LAST
WEEK I INVITED THEM AND SAID THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU SAID, TO
PUT THE GLOVES ON. WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED.
WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT NOW IS THIS EXAMPLE.
WHAT HE MISSES IS THIS DEMONSTRATION HERE I'M SAYING
IS NOT SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITY, DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE THAT
99.5 PERCENT OF ALL MEN IN AMERICA COULD WEAR THOSE PRISTINE
GLOVES THERE THAT ARE EXTRA LARGE NO MATTER WHAT SIZE.
THAT IS THE QUESTION. THAT IS THE RELEVANT QUESTION.
AND SO I DON'T THINK IT MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE
REGARDING, YOUR HONOR, THE CONDITION OF THE GLOVES IN THIS CASE
AND THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS MAKING.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: I HAVE AN ADDITIONAL QUESTION.
THE COURT: WHAT IS THAT?
MR. DARDEN: WELL, DO YOU WANT TO RULE ON THE OBJECTION AND
THEN I CAN MAKE --
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
I'M GOING TO OVERRULE THE OBJECTION. I WILL ALLOW
THE TRYING ON OF THE GLOVES.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
GIVEN THAT MR. COCHRAN HAS POINTED OUT THAT THERE IS
VARIANCE WITHIN THE EXTRA LARGE GLOVES, I WOULD ASK THAT THE
COURT INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO SURRENDER HIS PAIRS AND I WILL
SURRENDER MY PRISTINE PAIR AND LET'S HAVE HIM TRY ON ALL THREE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: THESE GLOVES -- MY OBJECTION IS AS WE SAID
BEFORE, THESE GLOVES -- FIRST OF ALL, YOUR HONOR -- WELL,
OBVIOUSLY WE WILL ABIDE BY WHATEVER YOU SAY, BUT THIS IS BECOMING
CLOSE TO SILLY JUST FOR THEM TO REDEEM AND RECOOP AND THEY ARE
NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RECOOP BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE SAME TEST.
AND THE PURPOSE FOR THE PRISTINE GLOVES WHICH YOU
ASKED US ABOUT WHICH WE COMPLIED AND WE DIDN'T -- WE HAD PEOPLE
PUTTING THEIR HANDS IN HIS GLOVES AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE
DONE AND WE HAVE TRIED OUR GLOVES ON ALSO AND THAT IS UNFAIR.
MR. DARDEN: I MADE THE REPRESENTATION ABOUT THE GLOVES.
WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID?
MR. COCHRAN: I AM NOT AFRAID OF ANYTHING.
MR. DARDEN: WE HAVE A PRISTINE PAIR OF GLOVES.
THE COURT: WELL, THE COURT HAS A PRISTINE PAIR OF GLOVES
WHICH IS NOW PEOPLE'S 401. THE JURY HAS HEARD MR. RUBIN'S
TESTIMONY AND DESCRIPTION OF THAT AND I WILL ALLOW THE USE OF
THAT PAIR OF GLOVES.
MR. COCHRAN: THIS PAIR?
THE COURT: THIS PAIR.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: A FEW MORE QUESTIONS.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q MR. RUBIN, YOU DID TESTIFY THAT YOU SPOKE TO ME IN MY
OFFICE LAST NIGHT AND THIS MORNING?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHEN YOU CAME INTO THE COURT THIS MORNING YOU SPOKE
TO SOME OTHER LAWYERS, DIDN'T YOU?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THOSE OTHER LAWYERS?
A RIGHT BEHIND THAT PARTITION.
Q OVER IN THE CORNER?
A YES.
Q AND HOW MANY LAWYERS DID YOU SPEAK TO IN THAT CORNER?
A I BELIEVE IT IS FOUR.
Q AND WHO WERE THOSE LAWYERS?
A MR. COCHRAN, MR. SHAPIRO --
MR. SCHECK: MR. SCHECK.
THE WITNESS: MR. SCHECK AND MR. BLASIER.
MR. SHAPIRO: ALSO FOR THE RECORD MISS FILIPE WAS ALSO
PRESENT FROM MY OFFICE.
THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: SO YOU WERE IN THE CORNER OF THE
COURTROOM WITH FIVE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS?
A YES, I WAS.
Q FOR HOW LONG WERE YOU THERE?
A I THINK APPROXIMATELY FIFTEEN MINUTES.
Q DID THEY ASK YOU A LOT OF QUESTIONS?
A YES, THEY DID.
Q DID YOU ANSWER THEM?
A I ANSWERED THEM.
MR. DARDEN: MAY WE PROCEED WITH THE DEMONSTRATION, YOUR
HONOR?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. RUBIN, THE PAIR OF GLOVES THAT YOU HAVE IN FRONT
OF YOU, IS THERE ANYTHING IN THEM RIGHT NOW? ANY CARDBOARD
STRETCHING MATERIAL, ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
THE WITNESS: YES. THERE ARE SOME FORMING INSERTS IN THEM.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WOULD YOU REMOVE THOSE, PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK COUNSEL TO BE SEATED.
AND MR. SIMPSON, WOULD YOU PLEASE STEP OVER TO THE
PODIUM.
(MR. SIMPSON COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: AND MR. RUBIN, WOULD YOU -- YOU HAVE REMOVED
THE FORMING INSERTS?
THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
AND WOULD YOU -- I THINK WE NEED TO CUT THE STRING
THAT IS IN BETWEEN THEM. CAN YOU PULL THOSE APART?
THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
WOULD YOU HAND THE RIGHT HAND GLOVE TO MR. SIMPSON,
PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
MR. DARDEN: COULD WE HAVE MR. SIMPSON STEP BACK TO THE
PODIUM?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR --
THE COURT: NO COMMENTS, COUNSEL. I WILL DIRECT IT.
AND MR. SIMPSON, WOULD YOU PLEASE, HOWEVER, STAND AT
THE PODIUM.
(MR. SIMPSON COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: THANK YOU. TURN TO YOUR RIGHT, PLEASE.
(MR. SIMPSON COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN, WOULD YOU PLEASE HAVE A SEAT.
MR. DARDEN: I'M JUST TRYING TO SEE THE DEMONSTRATION.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, BE SEATED, PLEASE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. RUBIN, WOULD YOU GIVE MR. SIMPSON THE LEFT GLOVE,
PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. SIMPSON, WOULD YOU SHOW YOUR HANDS TO THE JURY,
PLEASE, FRONT AND BACK.
(MR. SIMPSON COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, SIR.
AND WOULD YOU REMOVE THE GLOVES AND GIVE THEM BACK TO
MR. RUBIN, PLEASE.
(MR. SIMPSON COMPLIES.)
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY I REQUEST THAT MR. RUBIN FEEL
THE GLOVES ON MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS NOT HER WITNESS. I
OBJECT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. RUBIN, WOULD YOU RETAKE THE WITNESS STAND,
PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN, I DIDN'T SEE WHAT
HAPPENED. COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. THIS IS NOT IMPORTANT
-- OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: MR. SIMPSON --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THIS QUESTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
WHY DON'T YOU REASK THE QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: -- APPROACHED THE PODIUM.
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN, COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR ME
WHAT OCCURRED, PLEASE, DURING THAT DEMONSTRATION?
A MR. SIMPSON APPROACHED THE PODIUM IN FRONT OF THE
JURY BOX AND TOOK THE RIGHT GLOVE FROM ME AND PROCEEDED TO PUT IT
ON HIS RIGHT HAND AND THEN I HANDED HIM THE LEFT GLOVE AND HE
PROCEEDED TO PUT IT ON HIS LEFT HAND.
Q OKAY.
DID HE HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT
QUESTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: YOU CAN ASK HIM HIS OPINION REGARDING THE FIT.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: WOULD YOU GIVE US YOUR OPINION
REGARDING THE FIT OF THE GLOVE ON MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
A I THINK THEY FIT QUITE WELL.
Q OKAY. AND WOULD YOU --
A AND -- THIS IS AN EXTRA LARGE GLOVE. IT WAS A LITTLE
ON THE SNUG SIDE, SINCE THESE HAD NEVER BEEN TRIED ON BEFORE, BUT
BASICALLY HE WAS ABLE TO GET THEM OVER HIS HAND TUGGING AT THEM A
LITTLE BIT THAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY DO WHEN YOU FIRST TRY ON A
PAIR OF GLOVES FOR THE FIRST TIME.
AND THEY APPEARED TO FIT HIM SNUG AND TIGHT, PRETTY
MUCH THE WAY THE GLOVES WERE DESIGNED.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU HAVE INDICATED THAT THESE
GLOVES ARE ON THE SMALL SIZE OF EXTRA LARGE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I INDICATED THAT INITIALLY.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE, YOUR
HONOR. THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: MR. RUBIN, DO THOSE GLOVES FIT THE
WAY THEY SHOULD FIT WHEN THEY ARE NEW?
A YES.
Q AND WITH TIME WOULD YOU EXPECT THOSE GLOVES TO LOOSEN
UP, THAT IS, IF THE DEFENDANT WORE THEM FOR MORE THAN THE BRIEF
MOMENT HE WORE THEM HERE IN FRONT OF THE JURY?
A THEY WOULDN'T CHANGE IN TWO MINUTES, BUT OVER TIME,
IF SOMEONE WERE TO MOVE THEIR HANDS BACK AND FORTH, DRIVE A CAR,
DO SOMETHING WITH THE GLOVES ON, THEY GRADUALLY WOULD GET A
LITTLE LOOSER INITIALLY, YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT THOSE GLOVES WERE NOT
MANUFACTURED AFTER 1992; IS THAT CORRECT?
A UMM, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION, ACCORDING TO BRENDA
VEMICH, SHE TESTIFIED EARLIER, THAT SHE, STARTING IN 1992,
STARTED TO RECEIVE MERCHANDISE THAT WAS NOT SEWN IN THE SAME
CONSTRUCTION; HOWEVER, IT WAS CONSIDERED THE SAME STYLE NUMBER.
Q SO BETWEEN 1992 AND '94 THAT WOULD ALLOW THE OWNER OF
A PAIR OF THESE GLOVES MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO WEAR THEM AND
STRETCH THEM?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, ANYTHING FURTHER?
MR. COCHRAN: YES. JUST A VERY FEW BRIEF QUESTIONS, YOUR
HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q SO WHAT THAT DEMONSTRATION BY THE PROSECUTION JUST
SHOWED US --
MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THIS
QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: I HAVEN'T FINISHED THE QUESTION YET, YOUR
HONOR. MAY I?
THE COURT: PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
Q WHAT THAT DEMONSTRATION BY THE PROSECUTION JUST
SHOWED US IS THAT MR. SIMPSON WOULD BE LIKE 99.5 PERCENT OF ALL
MALES IN AMERICA; IS THAT CORRECT, IN PUTTING THE GLOVES ON?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU UNDERSTAND IN THIS CASE THE REAL QUESTION IS
WHETHER OR NOT THE GLOVES THAT WERE FOUND ALLEGEDLY IN THIS CASE
WOULD FIT ON MR. SIMPSON?
YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, DO YOU?
A YES, I DO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THOSE ARE THE GLOVES THAT WE TALKED ABOUT LAST
WEEK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THOSE ARE THE GLOVES THAT YOU FOUND, THAT THE
LEFT GLOVE IS NOW MAYBE SLIGHTLY BIGGER AND LARGER; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A YES, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REEXAMINE THEM. IF YOU
REALLY PINNED ME DOWN, I WOULD RATHER REEXAMINE THEM AND COMPARE
THEM TO THE GLOVES HERE OR ANY OTHER PAIR THAT IS IN THE
COURTROOM TO GIVE MYSELF A MORE ACCURATE STATEMENT AS TO EXACTLY
WHAT SIZE THEY ARE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT WHAT YOU TOLD US BEFORE WAS THAT YOU THOUGHT IT
WAS SIMILAR TO A LARGE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q BUT IN ANY EVENT, YOU KNOW THEY WERE SMALLER THAN
THESE GLOVES, THESE NEW GLOVES THAT WE GOT SENT OUT HERE
YESTERDAY FROM BACK EAST; IS THAT CORRECT?
A IN LENGTH.
Q ALL RIGHT.
IS THAT RIGHT? YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS YOUR
UNDERSTANDING?
A YES.
Q RIGHT NOW, WITH REGARD TO MISS SUSAN BROCKBANK, THE
LADY FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT I ASKED YOU
ABOUT --
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THAT EXCEEDS DIRECT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.
Q WITH REGARD TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLOVES HAVING
BEEN MEASURED BY A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE
DEPARTMENT ON JUNE 21ST, 1994, HOW DID YOU COME BY THAT
KNOWLEDGE?
A I WAS SHOWN STATISTICS REGARDING CERTAIN KEY
MEASUREMENTS OF THE GLOVES.
Q AND WHO SHOWED YOU THOSE STATISTICS?
A MR. DARDEN.
Q AND THAT WAS IN HIS OFFICE THIS MORNING?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS LAST NIGHT.
Q OH, I SEE. YOU MET WITH MR. DARDEN LAST NIGHT, TOO?
A YES, I DID.
Q YOU FLEW IN HERE LAST NIGHT AT EIGHT O'CLOCK?
A YES.
Q AND THEN WHAT TIME DID YOU MEET WITH MR. DARDEN?
A APPROXIMATELY QUARTER TO 9:00.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU MEET WITH HIM AT THAT TIME AND
WHERE?
A UNTIL APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN O'CLOCK.
Q SO ABOUT TWO HOURS AND FIFTEEN MINUTES LAST NIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND WAS THAT MEETING IN THIS BUILDING?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q AND THEN DID YOU MEET WITH HIM AFTER THAT OR DID YOU
GO HOME AT THAT POINT OR GO SOMEPLACE AT THAT POINT?
A I DIDN'T GO OUT AT THAT POINT.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN YOU CAME BACK THIS MORNING?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND YOU MET WITH MR. DARDEN AGAIN?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHAT TIME DID YOU START MEETING WITH HIM THIS
MORNING?
A A LITTLE AFTER 8:00.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU MEET WITH HIM?
A UNTIL APPROXIMATELY 10 MINUTES BEFORE 10:00.
Q SO YOU MET WITH HIM THEN ALMOST TWO HOURS MORE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q SO YOU CAME BACK HERE LAST NIGHT AT ABOUT EIGHT
O'CLOCK AND SINCE THAT TIME YOU MET WITH MR. DARDEN FOR
APPROXIMATELY FOUR HOURS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I THINK IT WAS LESS THAN THAT.
Q A LITTLE LESS? A LITTLE BIT LESS?
A THREE AND A HALF HOURS.
Q DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME WERE THERE ANY OTHER
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS PRESENT?
A YES.
Q WHO WERE THEY?
A DAVID WOODEN, ALAN --
Q THIS GENTLEMAN HERE?
A YES.
Q WITH THE -- I'M SORRY, THE GENTLEMAN WITH THIS
COLORFUL TIE, A RED COLOR?
A ALAN, ANTHONY, ANOTHER GENTLEMAN. THERE WERE PEOPLE
COMING IN AND OUT.
Q THE BACK ROW PEOPLE HERE, YOU MET WITH ALL OF THOSE
PEOPLE?
A THE BACK ROW?
Q WHEN YOU SAY "ALAN," WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY
NOT HERE?
A UMM, CORRECT.
Q ALAN YOCHELSON?
A YES, ALAN YOCHELSON.
Q HE IS A DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. WHO ELSE?
A MARCIA CLARK.
Q MISS CLARK. LAST NIGHT AND THIS MORNING?
A LAST NIGHT ONLY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOT THIS MORNING. IT WAS TOO EARLY FOR HER?
A NOT THIS MORNING.
MS. CLARK: I KNEW THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
MR. COCHRAN: ONLY KIDDING, YOUR HONOR.
Q WHO ELSE DID YOU MEET WITH?
A DETECTIVE STEVENS AND BELL.
Q YOU MET WITH THEM AND THAT IS WHEN YOU SAW THEM TRY
ON ONE OF THE GLOVES THAT MR. DARDEN HAD THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND YOU MEASURED THEIR HANDS, DID YOU?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU WERE ASKED TO MEASURE MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS
THIS MORNING OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THIS JURY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, I WAS.
Q YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO MEASURING HIS HANDS?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LET ME SEE IF I CAN ASK IT ANOTHER WAY,
YOUR HONOR.
Q DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MEASURING
MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE MEASUREMENT IS WHAT IS THE
ISSUE.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT, YOUR HONOR.
Q YOU MEASURED MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS HERE IN THIS COURT;
IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND WE WERE ALL PRESENT AT THE TIME?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THAT WAS BEFORE THE JURY CAME IN; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, SO YOU MET WITH MR. DARDEN THREE AND A HALF
HOURS AND YOU MET WITH US ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A APPROXIMATELY.
Q AND DURING THE LAST PART OF OUR MEETING, WHEN WE WERE
OVER IN THIS CORNER, WHO CAME AND STOOD BY US AS WE WERE HAVING
THE MEETING, AS WE WERE TALKING?
A MR. DARDEN.
Q HURRYING US UP; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A I CAN'T -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT MR. DARDEN WAS THINKING
AT THE TIME.
Q WELL, WHAT --
A HE DID COME OVER.
Q WHAT DID HE SAY WHEN HE CAME OVER?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q HURRY UP?
A I DON'T REMEMBER HIS EXACT WORDS.
Q YOU SAW HIM STANDING THERE, DIDN'T YOU?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHILE WE WERE TALKING, RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
JUST ANOTHER MINUTE, YOUR HONOR. I AM MINDFUL OF THE
TIME.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR. I
CAN FINISH HIM SO HE CAN HOPEFULLY GO BACK TO NEW YORK.
Q MR. RUBIN, SIR, ON THIS SUBJECT OF SHRINKAGE, YOU
HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF HOW MUCH LIQUID WAS ON EITHER OF THE GLOVES
INVOLVED IN THIS CASE, ITEMS 9 OR ITEM 37, DO YOU?
A I DO NOT.
Q YOU WOULD EXPECT, HOWEVER, WOULD YOU, SIR, THAT OF
THOSE TWO GLOVES, 9 AND 37, THE ONE WITH THE MOST LIQUID WOULD
TEND TO SHRINK MORE THAN THE ONE WITH LESS LIQUID?
IS THAT A REASONABLE STATEMENT?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING HIM.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
DO YOU KNOW?
THE WITNESS: IF -- IF BOTH GLOVES WERE IDENTICAL TO START,
YOU HAVE TO GO ON THAT ASSUMPTION, THAT THEY WERE PERFECTLY
IDENTICAL, AND THAT THEY ARE A PAIR AND THAT THEY WERE CUT FROM
THE SAME SKIN, THE GLOVE WITH MORE LIQUID ABSORBED INTO IT WOULD
SHRINK MORE THAN THE GLOVE WITH LESS.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: BUT WE KNOW THESE GLOVES AREN'T
PERFECT, DON'T WE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER OF THIS WITNESS.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: ABOUT FIVE MINUTES, YOUR HONOR.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q WHEN YOU MET WITH THE LAWYERS OVER IN THE CORNER OF
THE COURTROOM, YOU MET WITH MR. SCHECK, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q YOU UNDERSTAND HE IS A DNA EXPERT, DON'T YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU MET WITH MR.
SCHECK AS WELL AS THE OTHER LAWYERS?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS IMMATERIAL.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, MR. COCHRAN ASKED YOU WHETHER OR
NOT 95 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION COULD FIT THEIR HANDS INTO AN
EXTRA LARGE?
MR. COCHRAN: MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR; 99
PERCENT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. 99.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: 99 PERCENT?
MR. COCHRAN: 99.5.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: 99.6 PERCENT, HOW ABOUT THAT?
A HE DISCUSSED THAT POINT.
Q OKAY.
BUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WITH SIZE SMALL HANDS BUY EXTRA
LARGE GLOVES?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. THAT IS IRRELEVANT AND
IMMATERIAL, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NOBODY THAT I WOULD THINK OF.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU MET LAST NIGHT WITH ME IN MY
OFFICE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND YOU KNOW I DON'T GET PAID EXTRA TO MEET WITH YOU
THAT LATE AT NIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, HE IS TESTIFYING. I OBJECT.
MOVE TO STRIKE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: BUT YOU SAW MR. BELL FOR A FEW
MOMENTS YESTERDAY?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM AT ALL YESTERDAY?
A NO.
Q YOU SAW MR. STEVENS FOR A FEW MOMENTS YESTERDAY?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM AT ALL?
HOW ABOUT THE GENTLEMAN HERE, MR. ESCOBAR, DID YOU
SEE HIM YESTERDAY?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q DID YOU SEE HIM THIS MORNING?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHAT WAS HE DOING WHEN YOU SAW HIM?
MR. COCHRAN: IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT HE WAS DOING. TO
ME I DON'T THINK HE WAS DOING ANYTHING.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: YOU SAW MR. WOODEN LAST NIGHT; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND YOU SAW MR. WOODEN THIS MORNING?
A YES, I DID.
Q HE WORKS FOR ME; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU SAW MARCIA CLARK LAST NIGHT?
A YES, I DID.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU SEE HER?
A APPROXIMATELY THIRTY MINUTES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THE PERSON YOU MET WITH PRIMARILY LAST NIGHT THEN
WAS ME; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, YOU ALSO TESTIFIED, IN RESPONSE TO MR. COCHRAN'S
QUESTIONS, THAT YOU MEASURED THE DEFENDANT'S HANDS THIS MORNING?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THAT WAS AFTER THE COURT ORDERED HIM TO SUBMIT TO
A MEASUREMENT; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM "ORDER HIM."
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: IN RESPONSE TO MR. COCHRAN'S QUESTION
YOU TESTIFIED THAT THE DEMONSTRATION SHOWED THAT THE DEFENDANT
COULD WEAR GLOVES THAT 99.5 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION COULD WEAR?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q BUT IT ALSO SHOWED THAT HE COULD HAVE WORN THE GLOVES
AT BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT. MISLEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DID THE DEMONSTRATION INDICATE TO YOU
AT ALL THAT HE WOULD WEAR THE GLOVES AT BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR
HONOR, WITHOUT A FURTHER FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: I WILL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION BECAUSE IT IS --
CONTAINS MULTIPLE COMPONENTS.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: IN ANY EVENT, THE GLOVES HE TRIED ON
TODAY ARE EXTRA LARGE JUST AS THE BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM GLOVES
APPARENTLY ARE; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR
HONOR. THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: IS THE GLOVE AT BUNDY AN EXTRA LARGE?
A I CAN CONFIRM THE LEFT HAND GLOVE WAS DEFINITELY AN
EXTRA LARGE WHEN IT WAS PRODUCED.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: BUT THE ROCKINGHAM GLOVE YOU ARE NOT
SO SURE OF?
A I WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO INSPECT IT.
Q HOW LONG WILL THAT TAKE?
A TWO MINUTES.
Q OKAY.
WHAT WILL YOU BE REQUIRED TO DO TO INSPECT THIS
GLOVE?
A TO REALLY CONFIRM THAT IT WAS AN EXTRA LARGE?
Q YES.
A I WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE TO SOMEHOW LOOK THROUGH EITHER
THE HOLE IN THE GLOVE OR THE HOLE IN THE LINING OR JUST TAKE THE
LINING SLIGHTLY AWAY FROM THE GLOVE AND GET THE THUMB PUSHED UP
SO I COULD SEE THE MARKINGS AS TO WHO WAS THE CUTTER, IN WHAT
SEQUENCE IT WAS MADE AND WHAT SIZE IT ACTUALLY WAS PRODUCED AS.
Q OKAY.
ALL OF THAT INFORMATION WILL BE CONTAINED INSIDE THE
GLOVE DO YOU EXPECT?
A INSIDE THE THUMB.
Q OKAY.
NOW, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THAT KIND OF INFORMATION TO
FADE WITH WEAR AND WITH TIME?
A IT COULD.
Q DO YOU REQUIRE A KNIFE OR SOME OTHER ITEM TO DO THE
EXAMINATION?
A I DON'T THINK SO INITIALLY.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAND THE WITNESS 164-A, LAPD
ITEM 9?
THE COURT: DO YOU WANT ANY PAPER UP THERE?
MR. DARDEN: YES.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: DON'T TAKE THEM OUT YET, MR. RUBIN.
THE COURT: I THINK THERE IS A PAD RIGHT -- MR. DARDEN,
RIGHT HERE TO THE LEFT OF THE WITNESS STAND THERE SHOULD BE A PAD
OF PAPER THERE.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. DARDEN: HOW ABOUT A SMALL PIECE? IS THIS BIG ENOUGH?
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, BEFORE HE DOES THAT, IF I CAN POSE
ANOTHER QUESTION.
Q MR. RUBIN, MR. STEVENS AND MR. BELL NEVER TRIED ON
PEOPLE'S 401-A; IS THAT CORRECT -- PEOPLE'S 401?
A I BELIEVE THEY WERE GIVEN TO ME BY
JUDGE ITO.
Q OKAY. YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THESE GLOVES CAME FROM?
A I BELIEVE EARLIER IT WAS STATED THAT THEY WERE FLOWN
HERE FEDERAL EXPRESS YESTERDAY FROM THE MANUFACTURER.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT MR. RUBIN HAS BEFORE HIM
THE GLOVE.
AND MR. DARDEN, THAT IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT WHICH?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
MR. DARDEN: 164-A.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE WITNESS: THIS GLOVE IS -- WAS MANUFACTURED AS AN EXTRA
LARGE.
THE COURT: HOW CAN YOU TELL THAT?
THE WITNESS: (INDICATING).
IT ACTUALLY --
Q BY MR. DARDEN: IT ACTUALLY WHAT?
A IT HAS THE MARKINGS "EXTRA LARGE" IN IT.
Q DOES IT ALSO HAVE THE CUTTER'S NUMBER?
A THOSE -- THOSE PARTICULAR NUMBERS ARE NOT HERE AT
THIS POINT IN TIME.
Q AND WHAT DOES THAT INDICATE TO YOU?
A IT INDICATES TO ME THAT WHEN THEY GLOVE WAS
MANUFACTURED, IT WAS MANUFACTURED AS AN EXTRA LARGE.
Q WELL, THE FACT THAT THE CUTTER'S NUMBER IS NOT THERE,
CAN YOU OFFER AN EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THE CUTTER'S NUMBER ISN'T
APPARENT?
A I'M NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT SURE.
Q HOW SURE ARE YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY, I FOUND IN ANOTHER LOCATION -- I'M
SORRY -- I NOW HAVE THE CUTTER NUMBER. IT WAS IN ANOTHER
LOCATION.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WHAT IS THAT NUMBER?
A 359.
Q OKAY.
NOW, IS THERE SOMETHING CALLED A SEQUENCE NUMBER?
A YES. IT IS A 9.
Q WHAT EXACTLY IS A SEQUENCE NUMBER?
A IN THE MANUFACTURING PROCESS THEY NORMALLY WOULD GIVE
A CUTTER APPROXIMATELY A HUNDRED FEET OF LEATHER WHICH WOULD MAKE
AROUND THIRTY PAIR OF GLOVES AND THEY WOULD ACTUALLY CHART THE
PROCESS IN WHICH THE FIRST GLOVE HE MADE, THE SECOND GLOVE HE
MADE, THE THIRD GLOVE HE MADE, ET CETERA, AND THAT IS HOW THEY
KEEP TRACK OF THE PARTICULAR PRODUCT.
Q I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO REPLACE THAT GLOVE BACK INTO
THE BAG.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE MR. RUBIN TAKE A LOOK
AT PEOPLE'S 77?
THE COURT: YES.
AND WOULD YOU RETRIEVE THE OTHER -- ALL RIGHT. THANK
YOU.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU, MR. RUBIN, TO
LOCATE THE CUTTER NUMBER, SIZING NUMBER.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO LOCATE THE
SEQUENCE NUMBER, THE CUTTER'S NUMBER AND THE SIZING STAMP INSIDE
THE GLOVE, MR. RUBIN.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WHILE HE IS DOING THAT, LET'S ALLOW THE COURT
REPORTER TO CHANGE PAPER SO DON'T ASK ANY MORE QUESTIONS.
MS. CLARK: COULD WE APPROACH WHILE WE ARE DOING THAT, YOUR
HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE
BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY, IS MR. COCHRAN INTERVIEWING THE
WITNESS IN FRONT OF THE JURY?
MR. COCHRAN: JUST LOOKING AT A GLOVE.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, ASK YOUR NEXT QUESTION, PLEASE.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: YOU ARE WELCOME, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: WE ARE GOING TO MOVE OVER IN THE CORNER.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT, COUNSEL, THAT IS ENOUGH.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT THE FIRST GLOVE WAS
XL CUTTER 359 SEQUENCE 9; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND THE SECOND GLOVE?
A IT IS THE SAME. THIS IS A PAIR.
MR. DARDEN: THIS IS A PAIR. OKAY.
THAT IS ALL.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS FOR
MR. RUBIN?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, I DO, YOUR HONOR.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q WITH REGARD TO THESE GLOVES NOW THAT WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT, THE ONES YOU HAVE IN YOUR HAND NOW, YOU SAID THAT IF YOU
LOOKED AT THE LEFT GLOVE YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE THE COURT AND
JURY SOME INDICATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE THAT THE
LEFT GLOVE, OR THE GLOVE ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT BUNDY, WAS CLOSER TO
A LARGE OR A LITTLE BIT LARGER THAN A LARGE GLOVE NOW?
A I'M TRYING TO GET THE LINING BACK IN. ONCE I GET THE
LINING BACK IN, I THINK I MIGHT BE ABLE TO FIGURE THAT OUT.
MR. COCHRAN: SURE, SIR.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU HAVE NOW -- MR. RUBIN, SIR, YOU
HAVE NOW HAD OCCASION TO EXAMINE AND TRY ON THAT LEFT GLOVE.
IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT THAT LEFT GLOVE, THE LEFT
GLOVE ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT BUNDY, IS SMALLER THAN THE GLOVES THAT
WE HAD HERE IN COURT THIS MORNING, ITEMS 401?
A IN THE FINGER LENGTH, YES, AND IN THE ACTUAL PALM, I
BELIEVE THIS IS JUST SLIGHTLY SMALLER THAN THE GLOVES THAT WE HAD
ON HERE TODAY.
Q SLIGHTLY SMALLER IN THE PALM AND IN THE FINGER
LENGTH.
HOW MUCH IN THE FINGER LENGTH ARE THEY SMALLER? CAN
YOU GIVE US AN ESTIMATE, SIR?
A IT APPEARS A HALF-INCH OR BETTER AT THIS POINT.
Q A HALF-INCH OR BETTER?
A I COULD -- IF I HAD A TAPE MEASURE, IF I COULD BORROW
THE TAPE MEASURE I COULD TELL YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE WITNESS: THIS IS MEASURING APPROXIMATELY 9 AND 3/8.
THE GLOVE THAT WAS ON THE TABLE BEFORE MEASURED 10.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
SO IT WOULD BE ABOUT 5/8?
A YES.
Q 5/8 SMALLER? THIS GLOVE IS 5/8 SMALLER; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A SHORTER.
Q SHORTER. YOU MEASURED THE LENGTH, RIGHT, NORTH AND
SOUTH?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q OKAY. AND GIVEN THAT 5/8 DIFFERENCE, WOULD THAT PUT
IT IN THE RANGE, AS YOU HAVE INDICATED, IT MAY BE LARGE TO EXTRA
LARGE, SMALLER THAN THE REGULAR EXTRA LARGE, RIGHT?
A AS IS, THIS IS SMALLER THAN THE CONVENTIONAL EXTRA
LARGE, YES.
Q SO YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG, RIGHT?
A I THINK I WAS SOMEWHAT CORRECT.
Q BUT WE WANTED TO JUST PROVE IT.
YOU WILL ALSO NOTICE THIS PARTICULAR GLOVE, THE LEFT
GLOVE. AS YOU LOOK AT THAT GLOVE, THERE IS NOT MUCH IN THE WAY
OF LIQUID. LOOK FIRST AT THE --
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THAT IS IRRELEVANT A YEAR LATER.
THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU SEE MUCH IN THE WAY OF LIQUID
ON THIS LEFT GLOVE? AND I WANT YOU TO LOOK FIRST AT THE FINGERS
HERE.
THE COURT: I THINK DOES HE SEE EVIDENCE OF LIQUID HAVING
BEEN THERE.
MR. COCHRAN: YES. LET ME PHRASE IT APPROPRIATELY, YOUR
HONOR.
Q DO YOU SEE EVIDENCE OF LIQUID HAVING BEEN THERE IN
THE LAST -- IN THE RECENT PAST? AND LOOK SPECIFICALLY AT THE
GLOVES -- AT THE FINGERS OF THE GLOVE.
A SOMETHING -- SOMETHING WAS HERE.
Q UH-HUH.
A AND THE REASON I CAN CONFIRM THAT IS IF YOU NOTICE
THE GRAIN OF THE LEATHER HAS SHRUNKEN SOMEWHAT COMPARED TO THE
OTHER GLOVES THAT HAVE BEEN SHOWN THAT ARE NEW AND THAT IS WHAT
REALLY HAPPENED WHEN THE SHRINKAGE OCCURRED, THE GRAIN HAS BEEN
PULLED UP SOMEWHAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A IF YOU NOTICE THERE IS A LITTLE MORE SHRINKAGE IN THE
FINGERS THAN MAYBE DOWN HERE, (INDICATING).
Q SOMETHING WAS THERE BUT YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT THAT
SOMETHING WAS, CAN YOU?
A I CANNOT.
Q IN FACT, YOU DON'T SEE ANY SPOTS OR ANYTHING ON THE
FINGERS OF THIS GLOVE, DO YOU?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THAT IS IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I DO NOT SEE ANYTHING -- ANY SPOTS FROM HERE
UP, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: INDICATING FROM THE FINGERS UP.
MR. COCHRAN: HE IS TALKING ABOUT MIDWAY I GUESS THE GLOVE,
YOUR HONOR?
THE WITNESS: RIGHT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IF YOU TURN IT OVER, YOU FIND PRETTY
MUCH THE SAME THING ON THE OTHER SIDE; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q IN THAT AREA YOU DON'T SEE ANY SPOTS, YOU DON'T SEE
ANY REAL DISCOLORATION, DO YOU?
A I DO NOT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, HOWEVER, WITH REGARD TO THIS GLOVE, YOU -- IT IS
POSSIBLE, IS IT NOT, TO FIND SOME -- SOME SPOTS OR SOME
DISCOLORATION IN THE AREA NEAR
THE --
A THE VENT IN THE VENT.
Q ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IT IS POSSIBLY VISUALLY YOU CAN DO
THAT, CAN'T YOU?
A I CAN SEE SPOTS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THIS COMPARING AND LOOKING AT THE TWO ITEMS --
AND I WILL BE GLAD TO BRING BACK THE RIGHT GLOVE FOR YOU -- THERE
APPEAR TO BE MORE SPOTS AND MORE RESIDUE ON THE RIGHT GLOVE THAN
ON THE LEFT GLOVE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A I WOULD LIKE TO SEE.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, BEYOND THE WITNESS' EXPERTISE.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE THIS, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY. BUT WHAT HE SEES ON THE GLOVE I DON'T
THINK -- UNLESS IT GOES TO THE ISSUE OF SHRINKAGE DIRECTLY --
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I ASK A QUESTION, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY
AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO PLACE BEFORE YOU THE
RIGHT GLOVE -- AND I GUESS WE SHOULD CHANGE NOW, PLEASE.
THE COURT: AT THIS POINT DOES ANYBODY ANTICIPATE TESTING
THESE GLOVES ANY FURTHER?
MR. DARDEN: WE GOT EVERYTHING WE NEED FROM THEM, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: IS THE ANSWER NO, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: THE ANSWER IS NO.
MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE HIS OTHER REMARK.
THE COURT: BUT MR. RUBIN, JUST FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, WHY
DON'T YOU USE THE GLOVES.
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: AND MR. COCHRAN, WOULD YOU KEEP IN MIND --
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU. I WILL MOVE BACK.
Q WITH REGARD TO THIS GLOVE, THE ALLEGED RIGHT GLOVE,
WHICH WAS LAPD NO. 9, I DON'T KNOW THE EXHIBIT NUMBER, YOUR
HONOR, DOES THIS GLOVE APPEAR TO HAVE MORE OF A SUBSTANCE ON THE
LEATHER --
A YES, IT DOES.
Q -- THAN THE LEFT GLOVE?
THAT IS OBVIOUS, IS IT NOT?
A VERY MUCH SO.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THOSE TWO GLOVES, WOULD YOU HAVE
EXPECTED THAT THE GLOVE ON THE RIGHT, THAT SEEMS TO HAVE MORE
RESIDUE OF SOME SORT OF A LIQUID, WOULD HAVE SHRUNK MORE THAN THE
GLOVE ON THE LEFT, THE GLOVE FOUND ALLEGEDLY AT BUNDY?
MR. DARDEN: THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES, I WOULD.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT?
ALL RIGHT.
NOW, ALSO WITH REGARD TO THE LEFT GLOVE, DO YOU SEE
ANY CUTS ON THE LEFT GLOVE SPECIFICALLY IN THE AREA OF THIS
MIDDLE FINGER HERE, (INDICATING)?
DO YOU SEE ANY CUTS?
A I DO NOT.
Q HUM?
A I DO NOT.
Q YOU HAVE HAD OCCASION TO LOOK ON THE OUTSIDE AND THE
INSIDE, HAVE YOU NOT?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q YOU SAW THIS CUT, RIGHT?
A CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, LET'S TURN OVER THE RIGHT GLOVE AGAIN IF WE CAN.
THIS -- IN THE PALM OF THE RIGHT GLOVE HERE, IT
APPEARS TO HAVE -- ARE THOSE WEAR MARKS? I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT
THAT BEFORE.
A I CAN'T DETERMINE THAT.
Q CAN'T TELL WHETHER THAT WAS JUST WORN AS OPPOSED TO
ANYTHING ELSE?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q DOES THIS RIGHT GLOVE SEEM TO BE MORE WORN AS YOU
LOOK AT IT?
A IT DEFINITELY SEEMS TO BE MORE WORN.
Q THAN THE LEFT GLOVE?
A YES.
Q IT IS POSSIBLE THESE ARE WEAR SPOTS ON THIS GLOVE;
ISN'T THAT CORRECT, AS AN EXPERT?
MR. DARDEN: THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WHILE IT IS DEFINITELY POSSIBLE AND IT IS
DEFINITELY TRUE THAT THIS IS A PAIR, I'M ACTUALLY SOMEWHAT
SURPRISED THAT THIS GLOVE IS WORN TO THIS LEVEL AND THIS ONE
ISN'T, (INDICATING).
Q IT APPEARS THAT THE RIGHT GLOVE IS WORN A LOT MORE
THAN THE LEFT GLOVE, RIGHT?
A IT APPEARS THAT.
Q YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE AND THEIR
BUYING PATTERNS IN BUYING GLOVES.
PEOPLE DON'T USUALLY BUY GLOVES THAT FIT, DO THEY?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THAT IS VAGUE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: MEN GENERALLY DO NOT GENERALLY BUY GLOVES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DOES THAT ANSWER MY QUESTION?
A WELL, EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE GLOVES.
Q LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION. MEN DON'T GENERALLY BUY
GLOVES?
A THEY DO NOT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT IF MEN -- I GUESS MEN DO BUY GLOVES SOMETIMES AND
IF THEY BUY GLOVES THEY GENERALLY BUY GLOVES THAT FIT, DON'T
THEY?
A CORRECT.
Q BECAUSE AS A FORMER SALESPERSON, THAT IS THE
SALESPERSON'S JOB, TO GET THE PERSON A PAIR OF GLOVES THAT FIT;
ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q YOU DESCRIBED FOR US HOW YOU PUT THE GLOVES ON AND
MOVE THEM AROUND AND SEE IF THEY ARE SNUG OR WHATEVER AND YOU
MAKE A JUDGMENT, RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q IF YOU HAD A PAIR OF GLOVES THAT DIDN'T FIT, YOU
WOULD GET RID OF THEM? ISN'T THAT NORMAL?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THAT IS SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
A I THINK THE FIRST THING YOU DO IS RETURN THEM.
Q RETURN THEM OR GET RID OF THEM, RIGHT? IF THEY DON'T
FIT THEY ARE NOT WORTH ANYTHING TO YOU, ARE THEY?
A CORRECT.
Q NOW, YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONDITION OF THOSE
TWO GLOVES BEFORE YOU, ITEMS 9 AND 37, ON JUNE 12TH, 1994, DO
YOU?
THE COURT: I THINK THAT IS THE THIRD TIME I'VE HEARD THIS
QUESTION THIS MORNING.
MR. COCHRAN: FOUNDATIONAL.
MR. DARDEN: THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I WOULD LIKE TO OBJECT
TO IT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: IT WAS FOUNDATIONAL.
Q BUT WITH REGARD TO THAT, YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF AT
WHAT POINT THE ITEMS BEFORE YOU WERE SHRUNK, IF THEY WERE SHRUNK
AT ANY TIME?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MR. COCHRAN: IT IS A QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: I DO NOT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. DARDEN ON
ALL THESE OCCASIONS, DID HE SHOW YOU SOME CHARTS THAT HAD BEEN
DRAWN BY THE LAPD BACK ON JUNE 21ST, 1994, WITH THE ACTUAL
MEASUREMENTS OF THOSE TWO GLOVES THERE BEFORE YOU?
A YES, HE DID.
Q AND SO YOU SAW THAT THOSE -- FROM THOSE CHARTS THAT
THE ACTUAL FINGERS HAD ACTUALLY BEEN MEASURED BACK ON JUNE 21ST,
RIGHT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU GET HAVE OCCASION TO STUDY THOSE
PARTICULAR CHARTS THAT HE GAVE YOU?
A JUST A MOMENT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE, COUNSEL?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: JUST A FEW, YOUR HONOR.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q MR. RUBIN, YOU TESTIFIED A MOMENT AGO THAT THERE IS
MORE SUBSTANCE ON THE RIGHT GLOVE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THAT WOULD BE ITEM 9, THE ROCKINGHAM
GLOVE FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THE RIGHT GLOVE?
THE WITNESS: THE RIGHT GLOVE, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: AND THE FACT THAT THERE IS MORE
SUBSTANCE ON THE ROCKINGHAM GLOVE, THAT IS CONSISTENT THEN WITH
THAT GLOVE HAVING BEEN --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THIS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED SO FAR.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: IS THAT CONSISTENT WITH THAT GLOVE
WITH HAVING BEEN SATURATED IN MORE LIQUID THAN THE LEFT GLOVE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I'M NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT SURE I UNDERSTAND
THE QUESTION.
YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THAT --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO ANYTHING FURTHER AT
THIS POINT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. HE CAN ASK FOR CLARIFICATION.
THE WITNESS: YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU WHAT THE EFFECT OF
THE EXCESSIVE SUBSTANCE ON THE RIGHT GLOVE DID TO THE GLOVE IN
COMPARISON TO THE LEFT GLOVE?
Q BY MR. DARDEN: NO. ALL I WANT TO KNOW, WAS THERE
MORE SUBSTANCE ON THE RIGHT GLOVE?
A YES, THERE IS.
Q DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE RIGHT GLOVE ABSORBED MORE
SUBSTANCE THAN THE LEFT GLOVE?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU KNOW? CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER
OR NOT THE RIGHT GLOVE ABSORBED MORE --
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
MR. DARDEN: HE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: IT APPEARS THAT WAY.
MR. DARDEN: YOU ARE NOT -- STRIKE THAT.
Q YOU DIDN'T WATCH THE CORONER'S TESTIMONY IN THIS
CASE, DID YOU?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q SO YOU DON'T WHICH HAND HE SAYS THE KILLER USED?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT.
THIS IS IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL AND BEYOND THE
SCOPE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: YOU ALSO TOLD US THAT THERE IS NO CUT
ON A FINGER ON THE LEFT GLOVE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. DARDEN: THAT WOULD BE THE BUNDY GLOVE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YES.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU AWARE THAT THAT GLOVE WAS
FOUND AT THE SCENE AT BUNDY?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THIS, YOUR HONOR. OBJECT TO THE
FORM.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I AM SINCE I ARRIVED HERE.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
Q YOU ALSO INDICATED THAT THE RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE HAD
MORE WEAR AND TEAR ON IT, APPARENTLY?
A MOST DEFINITELY.
Q OKAY.
THAT IS THAN THE LEFT GLOVE?
A EXCUSE ME.
Q IT HAS MORE WEAR AND TEAR THAN THE LEFT GLOVE?
A DEFINITELY.
Q AND HAVING THAT INFORMATION, DOES THAT INDICATE TO
YOU, GIVE YOU ANY INDICATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE PERSON WHO
OWNED THOSE GLOVES WAS RIGHT-HANDED OR LEFT-HANDED?
A I CAN'T DETERMINE THAT.
Q YOU ALSO TOLD US THAT WOMEN USUALLY BUY GLOVES?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q THEY USUALLY BUY MENS GLOVES?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q DO THEY USUALLY GET THE RIGHT SIZE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DOES IT HAPPEN THAT WOMEN, WHEN THEY
BUY GLOVES FOR THEIR MEN, DON'T GET THE RIGHT SIZE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. I DON'T THINK WE NEED A GLOVE
EXPERT TO TELL US ABOUT SHOPPING.
MR. DARDEN: I HAVE TWO DIAGRAMS, YOUR HONOR.
MAY THEY BE MARKED 402-A AND B?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 402-A AND B.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SEE IT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
(PEO'S 402-A & B FOR ID = DIAGRAMS)
MR. DARDEN: MAY THE RECORD REFLECT THAT I HAVE INDICATED
402-A AND B IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER?
THE COURT: NOTED.
AND WOULD YOU SHOW THOSE TO MR. COCHRAN, PLEASE.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
THE COURT: SHOW THEM TO MR. COCHRAN.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY
AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
Q BY MR. DARDEN: SHOWING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED
402-A AND B, ARE THESE THE TWO DIAGRAMS YOU SAW IN MY OFFICE?
A YES, THEY ARE.
Q AND THOSE DIAGRAMS INDICATE THE AMOUNT OF SHRINKAGE
TO THE ROCKINGHAM AND BUNDY GLOVES; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE DIAGRAMS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES
AND I OBJECT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS DEPICTED ON THOSE
DOCUMENTS?
A EXCUSE ME?
MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. NO FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. DARDEN: THROW THEM ON THE ELMO. CAN I THROW THEN ON
THE ELMO?
THE COURT: COUNSEL, LET ME SEE YOU AT SIDE BAR WITH THE
REPORTER.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR.
WE'VE GOT A FOUNDATIONAL PROBLEM WITH THOSE CHARTS.
MR. COCHRAN: BROCKBANK.
MR. DARDEN: I WAS OBJECTING TO THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS
RELATIVE TO THOSE CHARTS WHEN HE WAS ASKING QUESTIONS AND THEY
WERE ALLOWED.
MR. COCHRAN: BUT THAT -- I DID NOT BRING THOSE CHARTS OUT
AND THE COURT HAD ME REPHRASE IT. HE KNOWS THAT. THROW THEM UP
ON THE ELMO?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. I'M SORRY, WERE YOU MOANING AGAIN?
THE COURT: YOU KNOW -- WAIT A MINUTE.
I'VE ABOUT HAD ENOUGH OF THIS BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU.
MR. DARDEN: HE STARTED IT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YOU ARE BOTH BAITING EACH OTHER. YOU BOTH
VIOLATED THE COURT'S ORDER.
250 BUCKS BOTH OF YOU TODAY.
MR. DARDEN: I AM VERY SHORT TODAY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS.
ALL RIGHT. YOU'VE GOT A FOUNDATIONAL PROBLEM.
I WILL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
PROCEED.
MR. DARDEN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
MR. DARDEN: CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
MR. COCHRAN: CAN I ASK ONE LAST QUESTION, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: ONE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q MR. RUBIN, WITH REGARD TO THE ARIS LIGHT GLOVES THERE
THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A LIGHT -- A SNUG FIT --
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THIS EXCEEDS DIRECT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, IS IT NOT, TO
GET A SNUG FITTING PAIR OF THOSE ARIS LIGHT GLOVES OFF OF ONE'S
HANDS ONCE THEY ARE FITTED ON YOUR HANDS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, THE JURY SAW THE
DEMONSTRATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. HE CAN TELL US ABOUT WHAT IT WAS
DESIGNED TO DO.
THE WITNESS: THESE GLOVES, AS WELL AS MOST FINE DRESS
GLOVES, COME OFF EASIEST WHEN THE HAND IS EXTENDED AND THE THUMB
IS TUCKED IN TOWARD THE HAND TO MAKE THE GLOVE SLIDE UP EASIER.
ANY MOVEMENT OF THE THUMB UPWARDS WOULD RESTRICT
GOING ON OR OFF, OBVIOUSLY, AND THEN ANY CUPPING OF THE FINGERS
WOULD RESTRICT THE GLOVE COMING OFF EASILY.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. RUBIN, THANK YOU, SIR.
ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE EXCUSED.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WHEN WE SCHEDULED THE TESTIMONY
FOR TODAY, IT WAS MY ANTICIPATION THAT WE WOULD JUST HAVE A SHORT
SESSION THIS MORNING AND I MADE PLANS TO TAKE MY STAFF OUT TO
LUNCH.
I'M SURE YOU WILL NOT BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT MRS.
ROBERTSON HAS BEEN VOTED THE SUPERIOR COURT EMPLOYEE OF THE
QUARTER. I'M SURE THAT COMES AS NO SURPRISE TO YOU.
(APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE.)
THE COURT: AND ALSO ONE OF OUR COURT REPORTERS, TODAY IS
HER BIRTHDAY, AND SO WE WERE GOING TO GO OUT TO LUNCH.
I WOULD LIKE TO FINISH THE NEXT TWO QUICK WITNESSES
SO WE CAN GO OUT AND DO THAT.
BUT ANYBODY NEED TO TAKE A COMFORT BREAK? WE WILL DO
THAT RIGHT NOW.
OKAY. LET'S TAKE A FIVE-MINUTE COMFORT BREAK AND WE
WILL FINISH THE TWO WITNESSES.
ALL RIGHT.
(RECESS.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JUNE 21, 1995
12:45 P.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
(APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE
M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
BACK ON THE RECORD.
LET'S HAVE THE JURY, PLEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN I APPROACH?
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE
BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED.
ALL RIGHT.
THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL
OF OUR JURY MEMBERS.
AND THE PEOPLE MAY CALL THEIR NEXT WITNESS.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.
LET ME THANK THE COURT AND THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN
OF THE JURY FOR ALLOWING US TO GO THROUGH THE NOON HOUR.
PEOPLE CALL MISS LU ELLEN ROBERTSON.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS ROBERTSON, COME FORWARD, PLEASE.
LU ELLEN ROBERTSON,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND FACE THE
CLERK.
THE CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU
MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE
TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU
GOD?
THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND
STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: LU ELLEN ROBERTSON.
THE COURT: AND WOULD YOU SPELL THAT FOR US, PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: L-U CAPITAL E-L-L-E-N, LAST NAME
R-O-B-E-R-T-S-O-N.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, MA'AM.
MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q MISS ROBERTSON, WOULD YOU PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU DO
FOR A LIVING?
A I AM ONE OF THE CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS FOR AIR TOUCH
CELLULAR.
Q AND WHAT IS AIR TOUCH CELLULAR?
A WE ARE A PROVIDER OF CELLULAR SERVICES.
Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "CELLULAR SERVICES," IS THAT A PHONE
COMPANY OF SOME KIND?
A YES. MOBILE PHONE CELLULAR SERVICE.
Q DOES THAT COMPANY SERVICE TELEPHONES THAT ARE
COMPLETELY PORTABLE ONLY OR DOES IT ALSO SERVICE TELEPHONES THAT
ARE AFFIXED IN A CAR?
A THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PHONES; PORTABLE, COMPLETELY
PORTABLE, TRANSPORTABLE AND ALSO INSTALLED IN THE CAR.
Q WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "TRANSPORTABLE"?
A IT CAN BE EITHER PLUGGED INTO THE CAR OR YOU CAN TAKE
IT WITH YOU, HANG IT OVER YOUR SHOULDER.
Q AND YOU SERVICE ALL THREE KINDS?
A YES.
Q IS THERE ANY WAY THAT YOU CAN TELL BY LOOKING AT
SOMEONE'S BILL, PHONE BILL WHETHER THE PHONE IS PORTABLE
COMPLETELY, THAT IS, YOU JUST TAKE IT ANYWHERE AND USE IT, OR
TRANSPORTABLE, THAT MEANS PLUGGED INTO A CAR OR TAKEN OUT OF THE
CAR OR AFFIXED IN A CAR?
A ON THE PHONE BILL, NO.
Q IS THERE SOME OTHER RECORD YOU HAVE THAT DOES
INDICATE THAT?
A THE MANUFACTURER CAN USUALLY TELL.
Q BUT YOUR COMPANY CAN'T TELL THAT?
A NO.
Q CAN YOU TELL US, SIR -- MA'AM, WHAT ARE YOUR DUTIES?
A MAINLY, MY MAIN DUTIES ARE TO RESPOND TO COURT ORDERS
AND SEARCH WARRANTS, SUBPOENAS, ANY KIND OF REQUEST FOR CUSTOMER
INFORMATION.
Q NOW, ARE YOU -- DO YOU HAVE SOME EXPERTISE IN THE
INTERPRETATION OF THE PHONE RECORDS THAT YOUR COMPANY GENERATES?
A YES. I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE BILLING THAT OUR COMPANY
GENERATES.
Q AND THE RECORDS THAT ARE GENERATED, THAT IS
INTERNALLY IN YOUR COMPANY AS WELL AS THE BILLS THAT GO OUT TO
CUSTOMERS, ARE THOSE RECORDS THAT ARE MAINTAINED AND KEPT IN THE
NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS?
A YES.
Q AND ARE THEY FILLED OUT IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF
BUSINESS AT OR NEAR THE TIME OF THE CALL BEING MADE?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: WE HAVE A CHART.
THAT'S ALL RIGHT.
PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 404
WOULD THAT BE?
THE CLERK: 403.
THE COURT: 403.
MS. CLARK: 403?
THANK YOU.
(PEO'S 403 FOR ID = CHART)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THIS IS A CHART?
MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.
IT IS A CHART ENTITLED "DEFENDANT'S CELL PHONE CALLS
FOR THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994," AND IT BEARS AN
ENLARGEMENT OF ONE PAGE OF THE PHONE BILL FOR THE DEFENDANT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MS. CLARK: IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO ASK TO PUT
IT, LOCATE IT CENTRALLY SO THE JURORS CAN SEE IT.
THE COURT: YES.
MS. CLARK: MR. ESCOBAR IS ASSISTING ME.
THE COURT: NOTED.
THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO SEE THIS, MISS
ROBERTSON?
A YES.
Q NOW, THE BOARD THAT IS NOW IN FRONT OF THE JURY, DOES
IT -- WHAT DOES IT DEPICT?
A WELL, I PERSONALLY CAN'T SEE IT RIGHT NOW.
Q WANT TO STEP DOWN AND LOOK?
A I HAVE A COPY OF WHAT YOU'VE GOT THERE.
Q OKAY.
WHY DON'T YOU TAKE THE COPY YOU HAVE AND STEP DOWN
AND LOOK AT THE CHART AND TELL US IF THE CHART SHOWS AN ACCURATE
AND TRUE COPY OF THE RECORD THAT YOUR COMPANY GENERATES.
A (THE WITNESS COMPLIES.)
YES.
Q GO AHEAD.
YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT NOW.
(THE WITNESS COMPLIES.)
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, MISS ROBERTSON, LET ME ASK YOU A
COUPLE OF PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS.
FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THE RECORD MARKED ON THIS
CHART, 403?
A THIS IS A COPY OF THE 12TH PAGE FOR THE BILLING DATE
JUNE 15TH, 1994 FOR MOBILE PHONE NUMBER (310) 613-3232.
Q AND TO WHOM IS THAT NUMBER REGISTERED?
A OUR RECORDS INDICATE THAT THE ACCOUNT WAS ASSIGNED TO
O.J. SIMPSON.
Q AND WITH RESPECT TO THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH --
WELL, LET ME ASK YOU MORE GENERALLY.
ON YOUR PHONE BILLS, INCLUDING THE ONE NOW MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S 403, IS THERE CERTAIN INFORMATION GENERATED CONCERNING
THE NATURE OF EACH CALL MADE?
A EACH CALL IS REGISTERED ON THE BILLING STATEMENT WITH
THE DATE OF THE CALL, THE TIME, THE LOCATION TO WHICH THE CALL
WAS MADE OR WHAT TYPE OF CALL IT WAS, THE NUMBER THAT WAS DIALED,
ANY FEATURES INVOLVED WITH THAT CALL SUCH AS CALL FORWARDING, THE
DURATION OF THE CALL, WHAT WE CHARGE AND SOME SUMMARY INFORMATION
ALSO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I'M GOING TO GO THROUGH THE BILL THAT'S NOW IN FRONT
OF THE JURY AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU WITH RESPECT TO CERTAIN
ENTRIES FOR THIS PHONE BILL FOR THE DEFENDANT WHAT EACH OF THE
ENTRIES MEANS.
I'M GOING TO TAKE AS MY FIRST EXAMPLE, THERE'S A
PHONE CALL ON JUNE THE 12TH AT -- AND THAT SEEMS -- IT'S UNDER
THE DATE?
A YES.
Q NOW, DO THESE BILLS REGISTER EVERY PHONE CALL MADE
>FROM THE CELLULAR PHONE?
A SOME CALLS NEVER MAKE IT TO THE BILL.
MS. CLARK: FOR THE PURPOSE OF PRIVACY OF SOME OF THE
NUMBERS, WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF THESE NUMBERS HAVE
BEEN CHANGED. I BELIEVE THEY HAVE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
PROCEED.
MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
SO IS -- EVERY CALL IS NOT REGISTERED ON THE BILL?
A SOME CALLS ARE -- NEVER EVEN MAKE IT INTO THE
CELLULAR SYSTEM BECAUSE OF ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, AND SO THEY
NEVER GET PROCESSED AND END UP ON THE BILLING STATEMENT.
Q HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?
A WHAT WE CALL CALL BLOCKING. MAYBE THERE'S TOO MANY
CALLS TAKING PLACE NEAR A CERTAIN CELL SITE AND IT MAY NOT MAKE
IT. YOU GET A FAST BUSY SIGNAL.
Q IF THE CELL SITE IS BUSY?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
BUT WHEN THE ACTUAL PHONE -- WHEN THE PHONE BEING
CALLED -- LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR.
WHEN THE CELL PHONE IS USED TO PLACE A CALL, THE
NUMBER IS DIALED AND THE PHONE RINGS. WILL IT THEN REGISTER ON
THE BILL?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH RESPECT TO JUNE THE 12TH, AFTER THAT, THERE
IS A COLUMN ENTITLED "TIME." DOES THAT REFLECT THE TIME AT WHICH
THE CALL WAS MADE?
A YES.
Q IS THAT ACCURATE?
A TO THE BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE, IT'S ACCURATE.
Q AND HOW IS THAT TIME REGISTERED? IS THERE A COMPUTER
OR SOMETHING TO REGISTER THAT?
A THERE'S A TIMER IN OUR SWITCHING EQUIPMENT THAT IS
SET, AND THAT'S THE TIME THAT'S RECORDED WHEN THE CALL'S MADE.
Q THERE'S A CALL INDICATED HERE AT 2:18 P.M. AND THEN
THE NEXT COLUMN, IT SAYS, "TO-FROM LOCATION"?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
A THIS WAS A CALL THAT WAS PLACED TO A NUMBER THAT IS
LISTED IN THE WEST LOS ANGELES EXCHANGE.
Q DOES THAT INDICATE THE LOCATION TO WHICH THE CALL IS
MADE?
A YES.
Q AND THEN AFTER THAT, IT SAYS "NUMBER." AND WHAT DOES
THAT INDICATE?
A INDICATES THE NUMBER DIALED.
Q AND AT 2:18 P.M. ON JUNE THE 12TH, THE NUMBER (310)
826-0403 WAS CALLED?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AFTER THAT, THERE'S A COLUMN THAT IS INDICATED AS
"FEAT," F-E-A-T?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT IS THAT?
A IT'S SHORT FOR "FEATURE."
Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
A IT COULD INCLUDE A FEATURE, MAYBE CALL FORWARDING OR
CALL WAITING OR THREE-WAY CALLING. JUST A FEATURE THAT MIGHT HAVE
BEEN USED WITH THAT CALL.
Q IN THE INSTANCE OF THE CALL PLACED TO 826-0403, THERE
IS NO FEATURE LISTED, CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q WHICH MEANS WHAT?
A PERSON-TO-PERSON CALL, NO CALL FORWARDING, IT'S AN
OUTGOING CALL, THERE WERE NO OTHER PARTIES INVOLVED IN THIS CALL.
IT WAS JUST FROM THE CELLULAR PHONE TO THAT NUMBER.
Q NOW, AFTER THAT, THERE'S A COLUMN THAT SAYS
"MINUTES," AND IN THAT COLUMN, FOR THAT COLUMN, IT INDICATES 4
MINUTES.
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS THE BILL THAT IS SENT TO
THE CUSTOMER, CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THE AREA -- THE COLUMN THAT SHOWS MINUTES SHOWS 4
MINUTES ON THIS BILL, CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
Q IS THAT THE ACTUAL DURATION OF THE CALL?
A IT MAY NOT BE.
Q AND WHY IS THAT?
A WE ROUND -- AIR TOUCH CELLULAR IN THEIR BILLING
PROCESS ROUNDS UP TO THE NEXT MINUTE. SO IF YOU HAD A CALL THAT
LASTED FOR SAY 3-1/2 MINUTES, WE WOULD CHARGE FOR 4 MINUTES.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT IS THE ACTUAL DURATION OF
THAT -- WELL, DO YOU MAINTAIN RECORDS THAT SHOW THE ACTUAL
DURATION OF THE PHONE CALL?
A WE HAVE OTHER RECORDS THAT SHOW THE ACTUAL DURATION,
YES.
Q AND DO YOU HAVE THOSE RECORDS WITH YOU?
A YES.
Q ARE THOSE RECORDS KEPT IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF
BUSINESS?
A WE KEEP THEM AS A REFERENCE. THEY ARE NOT BILLING
RECORDS, BUT THEY'RE BACKUP.
Q I UNDERSTAND THAT.
BUT ARE THEY KEPT IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF YOUR
BUSINESS?
A YES.
Q AND ARE THEY PREPARED AT OR NEAR THE TIME THAT THE
CALL IS MADE?
A YES.
Q UNDER EMPLOYEES, UNDER A DUTY TO DO SO?
A YES.
Q AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE ACTUAL DURATION OF THE
CALL TO 826-0403 WAS ON JUNE THE 12TH?
A AT 2:18 P.M., THE CALL WAS FOR 3 MINUTES AND 9
SECONDS.
MS. CLARK: COUNSEL, I BELIEVE WE'VE ALREADY MARKED THE
PHONE RECORDS THAT BELONG TO -- MARKED AND INTRODUCED THE PHONE
RECORDS BELONGING TO NICOLE BROWN THAT INDICATE HER PHONE NUMBER
IS (310) 826-0403. I'LL HAVE THEM PULLED FOR COUNSEL.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WITH RESPECT TO THE BOTTOM, TWO
NUMBERS THAT ARE HIGHLIGHTED ON THIS CHART, THEY INDICATE FOR THE
DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH?
A YES.
Q AND THE TIME 10:03 P.M., WOULD THAT BE AN ACCURATE
TIME FOR THOSE PHONE CALLS TO HAVE BEEN MADE FROM THIS CELLULAR
PHONE?
A YES.
Q I'M GOING TO BACK UP FOR A MOMENT AND ASK YOU TO
INTERPRET A COUPLE OF OTHER ENTRIES HERE.
AFTER THE 2:18 PHONE CALL TO 826-0403, NICOLE BROWN'S
NUMBER, WE HAVE TWO MORE PHONE CALLS MADE AT 2:22.
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q GIVEN THE DURATION OF THE -- ACTUAL DURATION OF THE
PHONE CALL MADE TO NICOLE BROWN AT 2:18, DOES THE TIME REGISTERED
AT 2:22 FOR THOSE TWO INCOMPLETE CALLS APPEAR TO HAVE COME
IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER?
A YES. IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER.
MS. CLARK: COUNSEL, MAY IT BE STIPULATED THAT THE PHONE
CALL -- THE PHONE NUMBERS REGISTERED UNDER THESE TWO INCOMPLETE
CALLS AT 2:22, THAT IS (305) 582-6952, IS THE PHONE NUMBER IN
FLORIDA FOR PAULA BARBIERI, WAS ON THE DATE OF JUNE 12?
MR. COCHRAN: WAS. SO STIPULATED IT WAS.
MS. CLARK: AND MAY IT ALSO BE STIPULATED, COUNSEL, THAT
THE PHONE -- THE PHONE CALL INDICATED AT 2:23 AT WEST LOS ANGELES
AT (310) 470-3468 WAS THE WEST LOS ANGELES PHONE NUMBER FOR PAULA
BARBIERI AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1993?
MR. COCHRAN: SO STIPULATED, YOUR HONOR, IT WAS.
THE COURT: YES.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU KINDLY, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WITH RESPECT TO THE INCOMPLETES NOTED
AT 2:22 FOR THE 305 NUMBER FOR PAULA BARBIERI ON JUNE THE 12TH,
CAN YOU INDICATE TO US WHAT THAT MEANS?
A THIS MEANS THAT AT 2:22 P.M., THERE WERE TWO CALLS
PLACED WITHIN THAT MINUTE TIME FRAME TO AREA CODE (305) 582-6952,
WHICH WERE INCOMPLETE CALLS, MEANING THAT THE CALL WAS NEVER
PICKED UP AT THE OTHER END. EITHER THERE WAS NO ANSWER OR IT WAS
A BUSY.
Q DO YOU HAVE -- YOU INDICATE ON THE PHONE BILL HERE
FOR THOSE TWO CALLS ONE MINUTE EACH.
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q DO YOU HAVE AN ACTUAL DURATION FOR THOSE CALLS IN
YOUR RECORDS?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT -- WHAT THEY WERE?
A FOR THE FIRST CALL, THE DURATION WAS 46 SECONDS, THE
SECOND CALL FOR 13 SECONDS.
Q NOW, MOVING DOWN TO 2:23, IS THAT AN ACCURATE TIME
FOR THE CALL ON JUNE THE 12TH TO PAULA BARBIERI'S WEST LOS
ANGELES NUMBER?
A YES.
Q AT 470-3468?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q THAT WAS PLACED AT 2:23?
A CORRECT.
Q IT INDICATES THE DURATION OF TIME TO BE 2 MINUTES FOR
THAT CALL?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q WHAT IS THE ACTUAL DURATION FOR THAT CALL THAT YOU
HAVE LISTED IN YOUR RECORDS?
A 1 MINUTE AND 27 SECONDS.
Q AND FOLLOWING THAT ENTRY ON JUNE THE 12TH, THERE IS
AN ENTRY AT 2:24. IS THAT AN ACCURATE TIME FOR THAT PHONE CALL
THEN?
A YES.
Q IT'S INDICATED AS INCOMPLETE FOR THE PHONE NUMBER OF
PAULA BARBIERI IN FLORIDA. AGAIN, THAT'S BECAUSE THE CALL DID
NOT GO THROUGH?
A THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS, YES. INCOMPLETE.
Q IT WAS NOT PICKED UP?
A RIGHT. CORRECT.
Q AND THAT COULD BE, AS YOU'VE INDICATED, BECAUSE IT
WAS BUSY OR JUST NOT ANSWERED?
A CORRECT.
Q AND THE DURATION OF THAT CALL AS INDICATED HERE AS
BEING 2 MINUTES AS WELL.
A CORRECT.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS THE ACTUAL DURATION OF THAT
PHONE CALL?
A 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS.
Q AND JUST BELOW THAT AT 2:24 ON JUNE THE 12TH, IS THAT
THE ACCURATE TIME FOR THAT PHONE CALL?
A THE CALL BELOW THE 2:24 CALL?
Q NO. THE 2:24 CALL, IS THAT AN ACCURATE TIME FOR THAT
NEXT PHONE CALL?
A YES.
Q GIVEN THE ACTUAL DURATION OF THE CALL JUST BEFORE IT
TO PAULA BARBIERI'S WEST LOS ANGELES NUMBER, WOULD THIS CALL HAVE
BEEN PLACED IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER?
A YES.
Q AND THIS CALL IS TO (305) 582-6952, PAULA BARBIERI'S
NUMBER IN FLORIDA?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT DOES THAT INDICATE WITH RESPECT TO WHETHER
OR NOT THE CALL WAS PICKED UP BY ANYONE ON THE OTHER SIDE?
A IT COULD MEAN ANYTHING. WHETHER IT LET IT RING, HE
LET IT RING OR WHOEVER WAS USING THE PHONE LET IT RING FOR A
MINUTE AND 27 -- A MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS.
Q AND THAT -- SO THAT CALL AT 2:24 TO PAULA BARBIERI'S
NUMBER IN FLORIDA WAS INCOMPLETE AS WELL?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THE DURATION WAS I'M SORRY?
A 2 MINUTES.
Q ON THE PHONE BILL.
A OH, THE ACTUAL DURATION.
1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS.
Q AND SO WE HAVE FOUR CALLS TO PAULA BARBIERI
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE CALL TO NICOLE BROWN AT 826-0403?
A FOUR CALLS IN TOTAL THAT DAY, YES.
Q NOW, RIGHT AFTER THAT 2:24 ENTRY IN THE AFTERNOON OF
JUNE THE 12TH, WE HAVE AN ENTRY HERE AT 6:56 P.M. THAT SAYS
"MESSAGE MGR"?
A YES.
Q WHAT'S "MESSAGE MGR"?
A IT'S A VOICE MAIL SYSTEM FOR YOUR CELLULAR PHONE
NUMBER.
Q AND WHAT IS THAT?
A YOU CAN LEAVE A RECORDING THAT SAYS, "I'M AWAY FROM
MY PHONE. PLEASE LEAVE A MESSAGE. I'LL CALL YOU BACK."
SO WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT SOMEONE ATTEMPTED TO CALL
THIS MOBILE NUMBER, (310) 613-3232, AND THE CALL WAS FORWARDED TO
THE MESSAGE MANAGER.
Q OKAY.
SO THAT MESSAGE MANAGER THERE AT 6:56 IS AND INCOMING
CALL TO THE MOBILE PHONE?
A YES.
Q AND THAT CALL -- UNDER FEATURE, YOU HAVE "CF."
A RIGHT.
Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
A IT MEANS THAT NO ONE PICKED UP THE CELLULAR PHONE OR
ANSWERED THE CELLULAR PHONE. SO THE CALL WAS CALL FORWARDED TO
THE VOICE MAIL SYSTEM.
Q SO THIS -- THE DEFENDANT'S CELL PHONE RECEIVED A CALL
AT 6:56 P.M. WHICH WAS NOT PICKED UP BY HIM. IT WAS PICKED UP BY
THE MESSAGE MANAGER?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND YOU HAVE A DURATION OF THE CALL, THAT INCOMING
CALL AT 6:56 P.M. AS 5 MINUTES ON THE BILL?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS THE -- DO YOU HAVE THE ACTUAL DURATION FOR
THAT?
A I -- I DO NOT. THAT IS NOT HERE ON THIS RECORD.
Q AND ON JUNE 12TH AGAIN AT 8:55 P.M., YOU HAVE MESSAGE
MANAGER?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND AGAIN, THAT'S AN INCOMING CALL?
A YES.
Q AND YOU HAVE "CF" UNDER THE FEATURE INDICATING AGAIN
THAT THE VOICE MAIL PICKED UP THAT CALL?
A YES.
Q BECAUSE THE CELL PHONE WAS NOT ANSWERED?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, ON -- AFTER 8:55 P.M., ON JUNE THE 12TH AT 10:03
P.M., WE HAVE A CALL -- IS THAT AN ACCURATE TIME, MA'AM?
A YES.
Q -- A CALL TO WEST LOS ANGELES TO PAULA BARBIERI'S
WEST LOS ANGELES NUMBER, INDICATES THE DURATION TO BE 1 MINUTE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q WHAT IS THE ACTUAL DURATION OF THAT PHONE CALL
ACCORDING TO YOUR RECORDS?
A 33 SECONDS.
Q AND THEN THERE IS A SECOND CALL AS REGISTERED HERE AS
BEING 10:03 P.M. AS WELL?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q OKAY.
SO THE SECOND CALL IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THAT FIRST
CALL?
A YES.
Q THIS ONE INDICATES WHAT WITH RESPECT TO UNDER THE
TITLE OF "TO AND FROM LOCATION"?
A THAT IT WAS AN INCOMPLETE CALL.
Q AGAIN, FOR THE SAME REASONS STATED BEFORE?
A YES.
Q AND THIS TO PAULA BARBIERI'S FLORIDA NUMBER AT
582-6952?
A YES.
Q AND THE DURATION SHOWS 1 MINUTE ON THE BILL. CAN YOU
TELL US WHAT THE ACTUAL DURATION OF THAT PHONE CALL WAS?
A 23 SECONDS.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
MR. COCHRAN: IF I COULD JUST HAVE A SECOND.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE
DEFENDANT.)
MR. COCHRAN: I JUST HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD MORNING, MISS ROBERTSON. HOW ARE YOU?
A GOOD MORNING OR GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q I GUESS IT IS AFTERNOON.
WITH REGARD TO THESE RECORDS THAT YOU'VE GONE THROUGH
WITH MISS CLARK, LET'S TAKE, FOR INSTANCE, THE INCOMPLETE PHONE
CALL ON JUNE 12TH AT ABOUT 2:13 P.M. IN THE AFTERNOON.
A OKAY.
Q IF ONE -- FIRST OF ALL, IN CALLING THE (305) 582-6952
NUMBER, THAT NUMBER, YOU COULD CALL THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER, AND
THE PERSON WHO HAS THAT 305 NUMBER, IF IT'S A PORTABLE PHONE,
COULD BE IN CALIFORNIA, IS THAT CORRECT, OR ANYPLACE IN THE
UNITED STATES; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
A THEY COULD BE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THE QUESTION WOULD BE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE 305
NUMBER WAS A PORTABLE PHONE. IS THAT A CORRECT STATEMENT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO SHIFTING TO THE TWO PHONE CALLS
THAT WERE IN RAPID SUCCESSION AT ABOUT 2:22 THAT ARE BOTH LABELED
INCOMPLETE ON THE PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT HERE FOR IDENTIFICATION, IF
THE NUMBER (305) 582-6952 WERE CALLED FOR APPROXIMATELY ONE
MINUTE, IN THAT INSTANCE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE TO --
PERSON IN A VEHICLE TO MAKE THAT CALL, FOR THE PHONE TO
DISCONNECT -- PERHAPS YOU WENT INTO AN AREA WHERE THERE WERE NO
CELLS OR WHATEVER -- AND IF YOU LOST CONTACT, TURN AROUND AND
CALL RIGHT BACK AGAIN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q IN FACT, IN THE -- IF YOU HAVE A CAR PHONE, YOU KNOW
THAT'S A MATTER THAT HAPPENS VERY FREQUENTLY, DOESN'T IT?
A YES.
Q THAT YOU'LL BE DRIVING ALONG, YOU'LL HAVE A NUMBER,
FOR SOME REASON, BECAUSE THE CELLS OR SOMETHING HAPPENS, YOU'LL
LOSE CONTACT WITH THE PERSON YOU'RE TRYING TO CALL OR WHATEVER.
YOU HAVE TO THEN DIAL BACK; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CONSIDERED A DROPPED CALL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO -- AND THAT -- THAT WOULD ALSO SHOW IN HERE AS
AN INCOMPLETE; WOULD IT NOT?
A ACTUALLY, IT WOULD SHOW UP AS A COMPLETED CALL, BUT
IT WOULD HAVE A STAR NEXT TO IT THAT SHOWED THAT IT WAS DROPPED.
Q ALL RIGHT. BUT --
MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T HEAR THAT.
THE COURT: DROPPED.
MR. COCHRAN: DROPPED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: BUT AS AN INCOMPLETE CALL, IF YOU
WERE MAKING A CALL TO THE 305 NUMBER?
A YES.
Q AND AS YOU GOT THROUGH THE CALL AND ALL OF A SUDDEN
YOU LOST CONTACT AND YOU THEN DIALED IT AGAIN, THAT WOULD BE
CONSISTENT WITH THE TWO INCOMPLETES IF YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO
COMPLETE THE CALL, IS THAT CORRECT, IF YOU MADE THEM IN
SUCCESSION?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND IN FACT, ON THIS PARTICULAR DATE, YOU ALLUDED TO
THE FACT THERE WERE I THINK YOU SAID FOUR CALLS MADE TO THE 305
NUMBER?
A IN TOTAL, YES.
Q ALL TOLLED?
AND EACH OF THOSE 305 CALLS WERE ALL INCOMPLETE; IS
THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THAT MEANT THAT THE CALLER WAS NOT ABLE TO REACH
WHOEVER THE PERSON WAS AT THE 305 NUMBER; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WITH REGARD TO THE CALL AT 2:18, THAT WAS A COMPLETED
CALL; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND ON THE RECORD HERE, IT SHOWS THAT CALL LASTED
APPROXIMATELY 4 MINUTES.
AND WHAT WAS YOUR -- WHAT WAS THE EXACT TIME OF THAT
CALL FROM YOUR RECORDS?
A 3 MINUTES AND 9 SECONDS.
Q AND AGAIN, YOU JUST ROUNDED IT UP, ON THE BILL YOU
ROUNDED IT UP TO LIKE 4 MINUTES?
A THAT'S WHAT OUR BILLING SYSTEM DOES, YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THAT WAS A COMPLETED CALL?
A YES.
Q AT 2:18?
A CORRECT.
Q AND YOU DON'T HAVE OR DON'T SHOW ANY OTHER CALLS TO
THE NUMBER 826-0403 AND AREA CODE 310 AFTER 2:18 P.M. IN THE
AFTERNOON ON JUNE 12TH, DO YOU?
A NO, SIR.
Q THAT'S THE ONLY CALL YOU -- YOUR RECORDS REVEAL ON
THAT DAY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
Q AND YOU'RE AWARE THAT NUMBER WAS REGISTERED TO MISS
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON ON THAT DATE?
A I AM NOW.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU ARE NOW -- YOU'RE AWARE OF IT TODAY, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU SHOW NO OTHER CALLS --
MS. CLARK: STIPULATE.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND YOU SHOW NO OTHER CALLS TO THAT
LOCATION THAT DAY, DO YOU?
A NO, I DO NOT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN LASTLY, MA'AM, WITH REGARD TO THE TWO CALLS
AT 10:03, ON THE PEOPLE'S CHART HERE, IT'S SHOWN THAT THESE CALLS
BOTH OCCURRED AT ABOUT 10:03.
IS THAT WHAT YOUR RECORDS SHOW?
A YES, SIR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THAT WOULD INDICATE TO YOU THESE CALLS WERE MADE
AGAIN IN SUCCESSION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THE FIRST CALL, THE ONE TO THE
470-3468 NUMBER, WAS THAT A COMPLETED CALL?
A YES.
Q WAS THAT A MESSAGE LEFT OR DID THE PARTIES TALK OR
WHAT HAPPENED? DO YOU KNOW?
A THERE'S NO WAY OF INDICATING THAT HERE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THERE WAS SOME KIND OF COMPLETED CALL?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SOME THING PICKED UP THAT PHONE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT IF THAT 305 PHONE -- WHAT IF THE 310 NUMBER HAD
SOME KIND OF ANSWERING MACHINE. WOULD THAT SHOW AS A COMPLETED
CALL?
A YES.
Q SO IF YOU DIALED THAT, THAT WOULD SHOW AS A COMPLETED
CALL EVEN THOUGH IT'S 1 MINUTE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR, HOW LONG WAS THE 6-12 10:03
CALL TO WEST LOS ANGELES THAT YOUR RECORDS SHOW 1 MINUTE? HOW
LONG WAS THAT CALL?
A 33 SECONDS.
Q AND THEN THERE WAS A CALL RIGHT AFTER THAT TO THE 305
LOCATION, AND THAT WAS -- YOU HAVE THAT MARKED INCOMPLETE.
A CORRECT.
Q AND HOW LONG WAS THAT?
A 23 SECONDS.
Q SO THERE WAS A -- ONLY A 10-MINUTE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE SO-CALLED COMPLETED CALL AND THE INCOMPLETE CALL?
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
MR. COCHRAN: STRIKE THAT. COUNSEL IS CORRECT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S ONLY A 10-SECOND DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THE SO-CALLED COMPLETED CALL AND THE INCOMPLETE CALL?
A THAT'S -- THAT'S ABOUT RIGHT PLUS OR MINUS A COUPLE
SECONDS.
Q ONE WAS 33 SECONDS, ONE WAS 23 SECONDS?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST ONE LAST SECOND?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE
DEFENDANT.)
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO WITH REGARD --
MR. COCHRAN: JUST ONE OR TWO LAST QUESTIONS.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO THAT I'M CLEAR IF I MIGHT, WITH
REGARD TO THE 10:03 CALL ON 6-12 TO THE 310 NUMBER, THE BILL THAT
YOU SEE THERE IN THE 33-SECOND ACTUAL TIME, WOULD THAT BE
CONSISTENT WITH THE CALL BEING PLACED TO AN ANSWERING MACHINE
AND THE CALLER COMPLETED A MESSAGE OR WHATEVER TO THAT ANSWER
MACHINE?
A IT COULD BE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN THE LATER CALL, THE CALL DIRECTLY AFTER THAT
WHICH IS MARKED INCOMPLETE TO THE 305 EXCHANGE, WOULD THAT BE
CONSISTENT TO -- WITH A CALL THAT WAS NOT COMPLETE? IS THAT
CORRECT?
A NOT COMPLETE, YES.
Q AND IF THAT 305 NUMBER WAS A PORTABLE NUMBER, THAT
PERSON COULD BE IN LAS VEGAS OR LOS ANGELES OR ANYPLACE; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A THEY COULD BE ANYWHERE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU CAN'T TELL THAT FROM YOUR RECORDS?
A WE CANNOT.
Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT A MANUFACTURER AND
TELLING WHERE CALLS WERE MADE FROM.
DO YOU HAVE THOSE RECORDS WITH YOU? YOU DON'T HAVE
THOSE RECORDS, DO YOU?
THE COURT: I THINK SHE TESTIFIED THAT THE MANUFACTURER
COULD TELL WHAT KIND OF PHONE IT IS.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
IS THE COURT CORRECT?
A THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RECORDS FROM ANY
MANUFACTURERS?
A NO, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS ROBERTSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU ARE NOW
EXCUSED.
ALL RIGHT. NEXT WITNESS.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, LET ME OFFER TO STIPULATE -- I
BELIEVE COUNSEL IS AGREED AND I WILL STIPULATE THAT AS OF JUNE
THE 12TH, NICOLE BROWN'S PHONE NUMBER WAS (310) 826-0403.
MR. COCHRAN: SO STIPULATED.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE ALSO HAVE A STIPULATION WITH REGARD TO
PAULA BARBIERI'S PHONE NUMBER?
MS. CLARK: I THOUGHT WE ALREADY DID. YOU WANT TO DO IT
AGAIN? DID WE ALREADY DO IT? SHALL WE DO IT AGAIN?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WHY DON'T YOU TAKE THE EXHIBIT DOWN.
AND, MISS ROBERTSON, YOU CAN GO. THANK YOU.
TAKE THE EXHIBIT DOWN.
MS. CLARK: YES, YOU WANT ME TO DO THE STIPULATION?
THE COURT: YES. SAY IT OVER.
MS. CLARK: I JUST NEED TO LOOK AT THE BOARD WHILE I'M
DOING IT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: COUNSEL, MAY IT BE STIPULATED THAT AS OF JUNE
THE 12TH, 1994, THE PHONE NUMBER (310) 470-3468 WAS -- BELONGED
TO PAULA BARBIERI, AND THAT AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, THE PHONE
NUMBER (305) 582-6952 ALSO BELONGED TO PAULA BARBIERI, BUT IN
FLORIDA?
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, I CAN'T -- LET ME -- JUST ONE SECOND.
ONE SECOND.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MS. CLARK: I HAVE TO DO IT ONE MORE TIME.
WITH RESPECT TO THE PHONE NUMBER (305) 582-6952, THAT
WAS ALSO A PHONE NUMBER REGISTERED TO PAULA BARBIERI AS OF JUNE
THE 12TH, 1994.
MR. COCHRAN: SO STIPULATED.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AS I INSTRUCTED YOU YESTERDAY,
A STIPULATION IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE ATTORNEYS AS TO THE
FACTS THAT THE STIPULATION RELATES TO. YOU ARE TO ASSUME THOSE
FACTS TO BE TRUE FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS TRIAL.
NEXT WITNESS.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
PEOPLE CALL MISS KATHLEEN DELANEY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS SHE AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY OUTSIDE?
MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: IS SHE IMMEDIATELY OUTSIDE?
MS. CLARK: I BELIEVE SO.
KATHLEEN DELANEY,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS
FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS DELANEY.
WOULD YOU PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND FACE THE
CLERK, PLEASE.
THE CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU
MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE
TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU
GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND
STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: KATHLEEN DELANEY, K-A-T-H-L-E-E-N
D-E-L-A-N-E-Y.
THE CLERK: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q MISS DELANEY, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU DO FOR
A LIVING?
A YES. I'M AN ATTORNEY FOR THE MIRAGE CASINO HOTEL IN
LAS VEGAS, NEVADA.
Q AND AS SUCH, WHAT ARE YOUR SPECIFIC DUTIES?
A PART OF MY DUTIES INCLUDE CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS FOR
THE HOTEL.
Q AND IN YOUR CAPACITY AS CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS, ARE YOU
FAMILIAR WITH THE RECORDS MAINTAINED BY THE HOTEL AND THE MANNER
IN WHICH THEY ARE PREPARED?
A YES, I AM.
Q DID YOU BRING WITH YOU SOME RECORDS REFLECTING
WHETHER SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF PAULA BARBIERI CHECKED INTO THE
MIRAGE HOTEL ON OR ABOUT JUNE THE 12TH, 1994?
A I DID.
Q CAN YOU PLEASE RETRIEVE THE RECORDS THAT ARE RELEVANT
TO THIS DETERMINATION?
MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL HAS
RECEIVED A COPY OF ALL RECORDS, AND I ONLY INTEND TO MARK THOSE
RELEVANT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU HAVE I SEE IN FRONT OF YOU A
RECORD THAT APPEARS TO BE A COMPUTER PRINTOUT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH?
THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND UNDERNEATH THAT, I SEE THAT YOU
HAVE ANOTHER RECORD. IS THAT A DUPLICATE?
A THAT IS A DUPLICATE, YES.
Q THAT APPEARS TO HAVE WRITING ON IT?
A YES. THAT WOULD BE MY WRITING.
Q YOUR WRITING?
A UH-HUH.
Q ALL RIGHT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL
AND THE WITNESS.)
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL HAS AGREED WE CAN SHOW THIS
ON THE ELMO. WE ARE GOING TO BLOCK OUT THE INFORMATION RELEVANT
TO OTHER PARTIES WHO PROBABLY WOULD NOT APPRECIATE THE PUBLICITY.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MS. CLARK: WITH RESPECT TO THIS RECORD, YOUR HONOR, ASK
THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 404.
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 404.
(PEO'S 404 FOR ID = MIRAGE RECORD)
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
IT'S SHOWING ON THE SCREEN RIGHT NOW, MA'AM. AND IF
YOU NEED TO REFER TO YOUR COPY WITH THE NOTES ON IT, PLEASE DO
SO.
A OKAY.
THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE EASIER.
Q OKAY.
NOW, FIRST OF ALL, CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER THIS
RECORD IS A RECORD THAT IS GENERATED BY THE MIRAGE HOTEL IN
NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS?
A IT IS.
Q AND IS IT COMPILED BY EMPLOYEES UNDER A DUTY TO DO
SO?
A YES, IT IS.
Q AND IS IT ALSO COMPILED AT OR NEAR THE TIME OF THE
EVENT, THAT IS THE CHECK-IN OR THE INFORMATION IS ENTERED WITH
RESPECT TO A PARTY CHECKING INTO THE HOTEL?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US, MA'AM, WHAT IS SHOWN IN TERMS OF
INFORMATION CONCERNING THE CHECK-IN OF PAULA BARBIERI TO THE
MIRAGE HOTEL ON THIS FORM?
A THIS PARTICULAR SCREEN IS ACTUALLY THE RESERVATIONS
DIVISION, THE RESERVATIONS LISTING BY NAME, WHICH IS ONE SECTION
OR ONE DIVISION OF OUR COMPUTER SYSTEM.
AND WITH REGARD TO THIS FORM, WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT A
RESERVATION WAS MADE FOR THE NAME PAULA BARBIERI. THE
RESERVATION WAS MADE ON JUNE 11TH, 1994, AND THEN IT CONTAINS
INFORMATION REGARDING HOW THAT RESERVATION WAS GUARANTEED.
MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR, I'D LIKE TO HIGHLIGHT THE AREA
THE WITNESS IS TALKING ABOUT SINCE THERE ARE SO MANY NUMBERS ON
THIS.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
MA'AM, WITH RESPECT TO THE NAME -- I'M GOING TO
HIGHLIGHT. YOU TELL ME IF I'M DOING THE RIGHT THING.
WHERE I'M ABOUT TO HIGHLIGHT, THAT'S THE NAME OF THE
CUSTOMER?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q OR THE NAME TO WHOM THE ROOM WILL BE REGISTERED?
A THAT'S CORRECT. UH-HUH.
Q IS THERE AN INDICATION ON THIS FORM AS WELL WHEN THE
RESERVATION WAS MADE?
A YES.
THAT WOULD BE, IF YOU FOLLOW THE LINE WHERE THE NAME
APPEARS ALL THE WAY ACROSS, YOU WILL SEE A DATE PORTION, AND IT
WILL SAY 6-11-94. THERE ARE NO SLASHES DIVIDING THAT DATE, BUT
YOU SHOULD SEE THAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WOULD THAT BE RIGHT THERE (INDICATING)?
A THAT'S CORRECT. AND YOU CAN SEE ABOVE IT ON THE
REPORT WHERE IT INDICATES THAT, THE DATE COLUMN.
Q I SEE.
AND THAT WILL BE RIGHT HERE (INDICATING)?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
MS. CLARK: AND I'VE HIGHLIGHTED THOSE --
THE COURT: THERE SHOULD BE A MONITOR RIGHT -- THERE YOU
GO.
THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY. OKAY.
THAT'S EASIER.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
AND FOR THE RECORD, I'VE HIGHLIGHTED WHERE THE
WITNESS HAS GUIDED ME TO AND I GUESS THE EXHIBITS WILL BE THE
BEST EVIDENCE OF THAT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WITH RESPECT TO -- THEN IT WAS --
THAT ROOM WAS RESERVED FOR PAULA BARBIERI ON JUNE THE 11TH, 1994?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND THERE IS AN INDICATION -- I'M GOING TO MOVE IT TO
THE MIDDLE.
IT SHOWS PETITE PLAN A. WHAT'S THAT?
A THAT IS ONE LINE THAT WE HAVE TO GIVE DETAILED
INFORMATION WHICH THE RESERVATION CLERK MIGHT FEEL IS IMPORTANT
REGARDING THAT RESERVATION. ANY INFORMATION THAT CAN'T FIT ON
THAT LINE WOULD THEN SCROLL ON OVER TO THE COMMENTS SCREEN WHICH
WOULD APPEAR ON THE CHECK-OUT SHEETS.
SO THIS WOULD HAVE DETAILED INFORMATION REGARDING THE
INFORMATION THAT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN AT THE TIME THE
RESERVATION WAS MADE.
Q WHAT DOES PETITE MEAN?
A PETITE WOULD BE ONE OF OUR ROOM TYPES. IT'S A PETITE
SUITE.
Q AND THEN IT SAYS "ATTENTION: DOROTHY"?
A YES.
ACTUALLY DIRECTLY AFTER PETITE, IT SAYS PLAN A.
THAT'S THE RATE PLAN AT WHICH THE ROOM WAS RESERVED AND THEN
RENTED AT.
THE "ATTENTION: DOROTHY" IS THE DESIGNATION. THE
RESERVATION CLERK ALWAYS INDICATES THE NAME OF THE TRAVEL AGENT
IF THERE IS ONE WHO MADE THE RESERVATION.
SO THAT WOULD BE DOROTHY, THE TRAVEL AGENT. AND JUST
ABOVE HER NAME, YOU WILL SEE THE NAME TZELL TRAVEL. THAT WOULD
BE THE COMPANY THAT MADE -- THAT DOROTHY WORKS FOR.
Q AND I SEE BELOW TZELL TRAVEL, IT SAYS "CC HOLDER
MICHAEL" AND THEN IT GOES DOWN TO "BOLTON"?
A WELL, WHAT THIS RECORD DOES IS, ON THIS LINE, IT SAYS
"CC," MEANS CREDIT CARD HOLDER, "MICHAEL." AND THEN AGAIN, WE
ONLY HAVE THE ONE LINE WITHIN THIS DIVISION, THIS RESERVATIONS
DIVISION OF OUR RECORDS.
ANY COMMENTS -- WE HAVE UNLIMITED COMMENT SPACE -- IT
WOULD SCROLL DOWN TO THE -- TO THE REMAINDER COMMENTS SCREENS,
WHICH WOULD BE IN THE CHECK-OUT DIVISION. AND THE NAME "BOLTON"
DOES APPEAR ON THAT PARTICULAR RECORD.
MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, I'VE HIGHLIGHTED WHERE IT SAYS
"CC HOLDER MICHAEL," AND THEN I'M GOING TO HIGHLIGHT "BOLTON" ON
THE LINE BELOW.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HAVE I DONE SO CORRECTLY?
A YES. THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND WHAT DOES THAT INDICATE?
A THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT PER DOROTHY WITH TZELL
TRAVEL, WHO SPOKE TO OUR ROOM RESERVATIONS CLERK, THAT THAT
RESERVATION WAS GUARANTEED BY MICHAEL BOLTON, AND THERE'S A
CREDIT CARD NUMBER THAT WOULD PERTAIN TO THAT RESERVATION.
Q ARE YOU AWARE OF WHO MICHAEL BOLTON IS?
A I KNOW OF A SINGER NAMED MICHAEL BOLTON.
Q WAS HE PERFORMING IN LAS VEGAS AT THAT TIME TO THE
BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A I AM NOT AWARE IF HE WAS PERFORMING, BUT I AM AWARE
THAT HE WAS STAYING AT THE HOTEL.
Q AT --
A DURING THAT TIME. UH-HUH.
Q ON -- AS OF WHAT? JUNE THE 11TH OR JUNE THE 12TH?
A AS OF JUNE THE 12TH.
Q NOW, OVER TO THE SIDE WHERE -- THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF
THE PAGE AS YOU FACE IT WHERE IT SAYS "COMMENT," I SEE 6-11-94
AND 15:55.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT MEANS?
A THAT WOULD BE THE TIME THAT THE RESERVATION WAS
TAKEN.
AND I MIGHT INDICATE YOU'RE SHOWING A PERSON'S NAME
THERE ON THE --
Q JUST REALIZED THAT. I'M GOING TO TRY AND -- I'M
GOING TO COVER THAT UP RIGHT NOW WITH MY FINGERS AND ASK THAT MR.
FAIRTLOUGH HIDE THAT INFORMATION.
AND I'M GOING TO JUST HIGHLIGHT THAT.
15:55 -- I'M GOING TO TAKE THIS DOWN NOW. BUT 15:55
ON JUNE THE 11TH INDICATES --
A WHEN THE RESERVATION WAS RECEIVED.
Q AND 15:55 IS MILITARY TIME IS IT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q FOR WHAT?
A 3:55.
MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK THAT MR. FAIRTLOUGH BE ALLOWED
TO BLACK OUT THE NAME THAT GOES TO ANOTHER CUSTOMER.
THE WITNESS: IT ACTUALLY MIGHT BE MORE ACCURATE TO SAY
THAT THAT WOULD BE THE TIME THAT THE INFORMATION WAS INPUTTED
INTO THE SYSTEM.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND WOULD THE INFORMATION THEN HAVE
BEEN GIVEN AT OR NEAR THE TIME OF THAT INPUT?
A ABSOLUTELY. IMMEDIATELY AFTER.
Q SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY NEAR -- ALMOST -- SO THE
TIME OF 3:55 ON JUNE THE 11TH WOULD HAVE BEEN WITHIN MINUTES
AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THE INFORMATION, THAT IS THE RESERVATION
FOR PAULA BARBIERI?
A THE RESERVATION CLERK WOULD HAVE A HEADSET, WOULD BE
RECEIVING THE INFORMATION AND WOULD BE INPUTTING IT INTO THE
COMPUTER AS IT'S BEING RECEIVED. BUT, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF ALL
OF THE INFORMATION THAT'S CONTAINED HERE, SOME MAY BE INPUTTED
AFTER THE CALL IS TERMINATED. BUT IT WOULD ALL BE
CONTEMPORANEOUS.
Q NOW, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU HAVE RECORDS REFLECTING
EXACTLY WHEN PAULA BARBIERI CHECKED INTO THE MIRAGE HOTEL IN LAS
VEGAS?
A YES.
I HAVE ANOTHER DOCUMENT WHICH WOULD BE A GUEST
REGISTRATION CARD WHICH WAS PROVIDED, AND THAT WOULD INDICATE THE
TIME OF CHECK-IN.
Q ALL RIGHT. MAY I SEE IT?
OKAY.
I'M GOING TO SHOW IT TO COUNSEL.
A WE ALSO HAVE IN OUR CHECK-OUT SCREEN AN INDICATION OF
ARRIVAL AND DEPARTURE TIMES, AND THEY CORRESPOND.
Q AND IS THAT A SEPARATE RECORD THAT YOU'RE REFERRING
TO, MA'AM?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q CAN YOU SHOW US WHICH ONE THAT IS?
A YES. THAT WOULD BE (INDICATING).
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, THE RECORD YOU'VE JUST SHOWN MYSELF AND COUNSEL
APPEARS TO HAVE A CUT OFF.
IF I TAKE THIS AWAY, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE ABLE TO
ANSWER A QUESTION?
A THAT'S ALL RIGHT.
Q SORRY.
OKAY.
WITH RESPECT TO THE FIRST BILL I'VE JUST SHOWN TO MR.
COCHRAN, THERE APPEARS TO BE A SIGNATURE AT THE BOTTOM?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND IT'S A LITTLE BIT CUT OFF.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND
CORNER?
A IT APPEARS TO BE PARTIALLY OBSCURED. IT WOULD BE A
FLAW IN THE -- THE PROCESS OF PUTTING IT ONTO THE MICROFICHE.
ALL OF THESE RECORDS ARE MAINTAINED -- KEPT AND MAINTAINED ON
MICROFICHE, AND THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A FLAW.
Q NOW, THERE DOES APPEAR TO BE A SIGNATURE THERE.
A YES.
Q DOES IT APPEAR TO BE MOST OF THE NAME PAULA BARBIERI?
A I SEE THE NAME PAULA AND I SEE THE LAST NAME
B-A-R-B-I-E.
Q THAT'S IT, AND THEN IT CUTS OFF?
A AND THEN IT CUTS OFF.
Q IS THERE, HOWEVER, ALSO HER PRINTED NAME ON THIS
FORM?
A YES. DIRECTLY TO THE LEFT OF THE SIGNATURE AND
ADDRESS BLOCK.
Q AND DOES IT REFLECT ON THIS FORM WHAT TIME SHE
CHECKED IN?
A YES. IT'S JUST ABOVE AND TO THE LEFT OF THE NAME AND
ADDRESS BLOCK, AND IT INDICATES 13:59 MILITARY TIME OR 1:59.
Q OKAY.
SO --
A P.M.
Q -- AT 1:59 ON JUNE THE 12TH, SHE CHECKED INTO THE
MIRAGE HOTEL?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q PURSUANT TO THE RESERVATION BY MICHAEL BOLTON MADE
THE DAY BEFORE?
A CORRECT.
Q NOW, THERE APPEARS TO BE A PARTIAL ADDRESS UNDERNEATH
HER SIGNATURE?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
I'M GOING TO BLOCK THAT OUT, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO
ALLOW THE LADIES AND THE GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY TO SEE THIS
RECORD.
WITH --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MS. CLARK: WITH THE AGREEMENT OF COUNSEL, I'M BLOCKING OUT
THE ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR.
I'VE BLOCKED IT OUT. WE'RE ALSO GOING TO PUT A PIECE
OF PAPER OVER IT.
THANK YOU, JOHN.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
THEN ON THIS BILL THAT INDICATES --
NOW, ONCE AGAIN, IS THIS A -- IS THIS A RECORD
PREPARED BY THE MIRAGE HOTEL IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS?
A YES, IT IS.
Q AND IS THIS RECORD PREPARED BY AN EMPLOYEE UNDER A
DUTY TO PREPARE SUCH RECORDS?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND IS IT ALSO PREPARED AT OR NEAR THE TIME OF THE
EVENT, THAT IS OF THE CHECK-IN OF THE PERSON THAT IS INDICATED ON
THE FORM?
A YES.
Q AND CAN YOU TELL US WHERE ON THIS FORM IT'S INDICATED
WHAT DATE MISS BARBIERI CHECKED IN?
A THERE IS A BOX ON THE TOP LINE THAT HAS A HEADING
"ARRIVAL." AND IT INDICATES 6-12-94.
MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO REMOVE THIS FOR A MOMENT, YOUR
HONOR. WE HAVE A CREDIT CARD NUMBER INDICATED ON IT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
COUNSEL, CAN WE SPEED THIS UP? I MEAN, IS THE ISSUE
THE CHECK-IN AND THE CHECK-OUT TIMES?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. ALMOST DONE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
FOR THE RECORD, I'VE HIGHLIGHTED THE DATE AND TIME OF
ARRIVAL OF JUNE THE 12TH AT 1:59 P.M.
AND I'M GOING TO ASK TO LEAVE THIS RECORD WITH MR.
FAIRTLOUGH SO HE CAN BLOCK OUT THE IDENTIFYING INFORMATION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND IS THERE AN INDICATION AS TO WHEN
SHE CHECKED OUT? DO YOU HAVE A RECORD FOR THAT?
A YES.
AGAIN, A SCREEN I MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO, THE THIRD
OF THE THREE DIVISION SCREENS IN OUR TANDEM SYSTEM IS CONSIDERED
A CHECK-OUT LISTING BY NAME. WE HAVE THAT RECORD.
AND THAT NOT ONLY SHOWS THE ARRIVAL TIME, IT SHOWS
THE CHECK-OUT, AND IT CONTAINS VARIOUS OTHER INFORMATION
INCLUDING ALL COMMENTS MADE DURING THAT PARTICULAR GUEST'S STAY.
Q AND WHAT RECORD IS THAT?
A I WOULD CALL IT CHECK-OUT LISTING BY NAME. IT'S A
CHECK-OUT DIVISION PRINTING, COMPUTER PRINTING. AND I HANDED IT
TO YOU A MOMENT AGO. SHOULD HAVE IT.
IT HAS OTHER PEOPLE'S NAME ON IT AGAIN AS DID THE
PRIOR DOCUMENT. MISS BARBIERI'S INFORMATION IS TOWARDS THE
BOTTOM OF THAT DOCUMENT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I'M FOLDING IT DOWN NOW SO THAT I CAN SHOW -- JUST
REVEAL THE INFORMATION PERTAINING TO MISS BARBIERI.
A THERE IS ONE ADDITIONAL NAME BELOW MISS BARBIERI
WHICH YOU MIGHT WANT TO BLOCK OUT.
Q I'LL DO THAT AS WELL. I'M JUST GOING TO FOLD IT.
MS. CLARK: AND THAT LAST RECORD, YOUR HONOR, I ASK THAT IT
BE MARKED PEOPLE'S --
THE COURT: 405.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
(PEO'S 405 FOR ID = DOCUMENT)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A -- THE RECORD REFERRED TO BY THE
WITNESS, WOULD LIKE IT TO BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 406 IF I MAY.
THE COURT: I THOUGHT WE JUST MARKED IT.
PROCEED.
MS. CLARK: THIS IS ANOTHER RECORD.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
PROCEED.
(PEO'S 406 FOR ID = DOCUMENT)
Q BY MS. CLARK: IS THIS THE FOLDED VERSION OF THE
RECORD YOU JUST REFERRED TO, MA'AM?
A YES, IT IS.
Q AND AGAIN, WITH RESPECT TO ITS PREPARATION, IS THIS
PREPARED IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF BUSINESS AT THE MIRAGE HOTEL?
A YES.
Q BY PEOPLE UNDER A DUTY TO DO SO?
A YES.
Q AT OR NEAR THE TIME OF THE EVENTS THAT ARE REFLECTED
IN THAT DOCUMENT?
A YES.
Q AND DOES THIS DOCUMENT REFLECT WHEN MISS BARBIERI
CHECKED OUT?
A IT DOES.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, YOU'VE PARTIALLY FOLDED I
BELIEVE OR MAYBE YOU JUST CAUGHT THAT -- IT SHOULD BE AT THE VERY
TOP RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF THE SCREEN "ARRIVE," AND THEN IT HAS A
6-12-94, 13:59. THEN JUST BELOW IT, "DEPART 6-15-94 AT 13:50 --
46" MILITARY TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WE ARE ZOOMING IN ON THAT NOW.
A THE TIMES ARE TO THE RIGHT, YES.
Q AND I'M GOING TO HIGHLIGHT THAT FOR THE RECORD.
SO IT REFLECTS THAT MISS BARBIERI CHECKED IN AT 1:59
P.M. ON JUNE THE 12TH AND CHECKED OUT AT 6:15 --
MR. COCHRAN: COUNSEL, THERE'S A NUMBER.
MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO TAKE IT DOWN.
Q BY MS. CLARK: -- AND SHE CHECKED OUT AT -- ON JUNE
15TH AT 1:46 P.M.?
A CORRECT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
ANYTHING ELSE?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: JUST ONE OR TWO QUESTIONS.
VERY BRIEFLY, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNSEL.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q WITH REGARD TO THE RECORDS WE'VE JUST SEEN, ARE YOU
AWARE THAT ON THAT PARTICULAR WEEKEND, MICHAEL BOLTON WAS HOSTING
A CELEBRITY SOFTBALL GAME IN LAS VEGAS ON SUNDAY, JUNE 12TH?
A I'M NOT AWARE OF THAT IN PARTICULAR. I REMEMBER THE
EVENT TAKING PLACE AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU KNEW IT WAS ON THAT PARTICULAR DATE, ON OR
ABOUT JUNE 12TH?
A I'M NOT AWARE OF WHAT DATE IT WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT YOU -- FROM CHECKING YOUR RECORDS AS A CUSTODIAN
OF RECORDS, YOU ARE AWARE THAT HE HAD MAINTAINED AND BROUGHT A
NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN AND GUARANTEED THEIR ROOMS AT THE MIRAGE, HAD
HE NOT, DURING THIS TIME FRAME?
A I KNOW THAT HE WAS STAYING THERE PERSONALLY. I'M NOT
AWARE OF WHAT OTHER RESERVATIONS MIGHT HAVE BEEN MADE BY HIM OR
UNDER HIS NAME.
Q YOU DIDN'T -- YOU DIDN'T HAVE OCCASION TO CHECK
THOSE?
A THEY DIDN'T APPEAR IN CORRELATION TO MISS BARBIERI'S
RECORDS, AND THE SUBPOENA WAS LIMITED TO THAT.
Q IT WAS LIMITED TO JUST BARBIERI; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
Q OKAY.
SO THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHERS AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO
WERE THERE AS HIS GUESTS, BUT YOU WEREN'T ASKED TO LOOK AT THAT;
IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO.
Q IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q OKAY.
I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE.
THANK YOU.
AND WITH -- ARE YOU -- WERE YOU AWARE ALSO THAT ON
THAT MONDAY, WHICH I GUESS WOULD BE JUNE 13TH, THAT MICHAEL
BOLTON HAD A CONCERT AT THE THOMAS AND MACK ARENA THERE IN LAS
VEGAS UNVEILING HIS NEW VIDEO?
A I WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT.
Q WERE YOU AWARE OF WHETHER OR NOT PAULA BARBIERI HAD
BEEN IN THAT VIDEO, HIS MUSICAL VIDEO?
A NO, I'M NOT AWARE OF THAT.
Q YOU WERE NOT AWARE OF THAT EITHER?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WELL, THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
MR. COCHRAN: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ANYTHING ELSE?
MS. CLARK: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, COUNSEL. YOU ARE EXCUSED.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS
FOR THE DAY.
LET ME SAY ONE OTHER THING TO YOU, HOWEVER.
WHEN I WAS COMMENTING TO YOU EARLIER ABOUT THE FACT
THAT THE PROSECUTION ANTICIPATES RESTING PERHAPS AT THE END OF
NEXT WEEK AND I INDICATED TO YOU THAT MEANS PERHAPS WE'VE
FINISHED HALF OF THE CASE AT THIS POINT, I MISSPOKE MYSELF
BECAUSE, AS YOU RECOLLECT, THE DEFENSE HAS NO OBLIGATION
WHATSOEVER, AS I INSTRUCTED YOU AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CASE, TO
PRESENT ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL.
SO AT THIS POINT, ALL WE'RE CERTAIN IS THAT THE
PROSECUTION MAY BE CONCLUDING THEIR CASE BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK.
ALL RIGHT?
I THINK YOU RECOLLECT MY INITIAL INSTRUCTIONS
REGARDING THE BURDEN OF PROOF.
ALL RIGHT.
AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED, WE WILL STAND IN
RECESS UNTIL 1:30.
AND I'LL EXPECT COUNSEL HERE AT 9:00 O'CLOCK TOMORROW
MORNING FOR THE HEARING.
ALL RIGHT.
WE'LL BE IN RECESS.
(AT 1:55 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT
WAS TAKEN UNTIL, THURSDAY,
JUNE 22, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
)
)
VS. ) NO. BA097211
)
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
)
)
DEFENDANT. )
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 21, 1995
VOLUME 172
PAGES 32945 THROUGH 33120, INCLUSIVE
APPEARANCES: (SEE PAGE 2)
JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588
CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR #2378
OFFICIAL REPORTERS
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PEOPLE: GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: MARCIA R. CLARK, WILLIAM W.
HODGMAN, CHRISTOPHER A. DARDEN,
CHERI A. LEWIS, ROCKNE P. HARMON,
GEORGE W. CLARKE, SCOTT M. GORDON
LYDIA C. BODIN, HANK M. GOLDBERG,
ALAN YOCHELSON AND DARRELL S.
MAVIS, BRIAN R. KELBERG, AND
KENNETH E. LYNCH, DEPUTIES
18-000 CRIMINAL COURTS BUILDING
210 WEST TEMPLE STREET
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012
FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
SARA L. CAPLAN, ESQUIRE
2121 AVENUE OF THE STARS
19TH FLOOR
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90067
JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE
BY: CARL E. DOUGLAS, ESQUIRE
SHAWN SNIDER CHAPMAN, ESQUIRE
4929 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1010
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90010
GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE
ROBERT KARDASHIAN, ESQUIRE
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ESQUIRE
F. LEE BAILEY, ESQUIRE
BARRY SCHECK, ESQUIRE
PETER NEUFELD, ESQUIRE
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQUIRE
WILLIAM C. THOMPSON, ESQUIRE
I N D E X
INDEX FOR VOLUME 172 PAGES 32945 - 33120
-----------------------------------------------------
DAY DATE SESSION PAGE VOL.
WEDNESDAY JUNE 21, 1995 A.M. 32945 172
P.M. 33067 172
-----------------------------------------------------
LEGEND:
MS. CLARK - MC MR. SHAPIRO - S
MR. HODGMAN - H MR. COCHRAN - C MR. DARDEN D
MR. DOUGLAS - CD
MS. LEWIS - L MR. BAILEY - B
MS. KAHN - K MS. CHAPMAN - SC MR. GOLDBERG -
GB MR. BLASIER - BB
MR. CLARKE - GC MR. UELMEN - U
MR. HARMON - RH MR. SCHECK - BS
MR. GORDON - G MR. NEUFELD - N
MR. KELBERG - BK
-----------------------------------------------------
CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
PEOPLE'S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.
RUBIN, RICHARD
(RECALLED) 32978D 172
(VOIR DIRE) 33000C
(RESUMED) 33016D 30024C 33032D 33044C
(FURTHER) 33055D 33064C
ROBERTSON, 33070MC 33088C 172
LU ELLEN
DELANEY, 33100MC 33117C 172
KATHLEEN
-----------------------------------------------------
ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.
DELANEY, 33100MC 33117C 172
KATHLEEN
ROBERTSON, 33070MC 33088C 172
LU ELLEN
RUBIN, RICHARD
(RECALLED) 32978D 172
(VOIR DIRE) 33000C
(RESUMED) 33016D 30024C 33032D 33044C
(FURTHER) 33055D 33064C
EXHIBITS
PEOPLE'S FOR IN EXHIBIT
IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.
401 - PAIR OF GLOVES 32979 172
BROWN IN COLOR, ARIS LIGHT
402-A - DIAGRAM 33058 172
DEPICTING A RIGHT GLOVE, LAPD EVIDENCE ITEM
NO. 9
402-B - DIAGRAM 33058 172
DEPICTING A LEFT GLOVE, LAPD EVIDENCE ITEM
NO. 37
403 - CHART 33072 172
ENTITLED "DEFENDANT'S CELLULAR PHONE CALLS FOR
THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, 1994
404 - REDACTED RECORD 33102 172
FROM THE MIRAGE HOTEL, LAS VEGAS, FOR THE DATE
OF JUNE 12, 1994
405 - REDACTED RECORD 33114 172
FROM THE MIRAGE HOTEL, LAS VEGAS, FOR THE DATE
OF JUNE 12, 1994
406 - REDACTED RECORD 33115 172
FROM THE MIRAGE HOTEL, LAS VEGAS, FOR THE DATE
OF JUNE 12, 1994
??
