Aucf-cs.471
net.general
utcsrgv!utzoo!decvax!duke!ucf-cs!goldfarb
Wed Mar 17 00:25:33 1982
Grammar Response Digest
WARNING! Long Article
Having received several replies to my `grammar' article, I decided to share
them with the network. I have deleted names to protect the innocent and
because I received specific requests to that effect. I will forward mail
to any of these individuals if I am given a phrase or sentence that identifies
the original letter.
Thanks to the two people who pointed out my grammar errors. [I really DO know
that grammar is not spelled with three m's.]
==============================================================================
"All dare to write, who can or cannot read."
Horace (65-8 BC)
"Epistles", Book II
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I think that one of the reasons why "computer types" tend to
use improper grammar is that there is a strong tendency to deliberately
break (arbitrary) conventions which violate one's sense logical con-
struction. For instance, when ending a sentence with a parenthetical
remark, I will not put the period inside of the close parenthesis
because the period ends the sentence, not the remark. Similarly, I
will put the comma following a quotation outside of the quotes to
seperate it from the quotation in the interest of quoting someone exactly.
However, as far as misuses of words, parts of speech, etc. I am
a stickler for proper grammar.
Comments?
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Somebody had a law, once...........
If you make it possible for programmers to write programs in English,
you will find that programmers cannot write in English.
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I agree with you that everyone's grammar is not perfect. I belive
that part of the reason is that people enter their submissions to
the net without the aid of a text editor (as I am doing now). They
then change their minds after they hit return and must find a way
to try to achieve the continuity of the idea.
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Out of curiosity, what do you think is causing the (apparently) sudden
decline? Is it the permissiveness of the 60's and 70's (people didn't
bother to learn/teach grammar because it wasn't relevant) or is
it the ubiquitous villain television (nobody reads anymore) or something
else entirely?
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re: your plaints re: grammar, etc.; as a card carrying, but non-practicing
journalist, i wholeheartedly agree, but i must point out that you are
being awfully superior for one who abuses commas the way you did in your
complaint. check it out. btw, i am (of course) not paying proper obeisance
to the great god STYLE in this message (lower case i, etc.), but my
commas are in the right places. cheers, ernie
==============================================================================
I too find bad grammar an annoyance. At the same time, I can't quite
feel justified in my annoyance. I mean, what is *wrong* with poor
grammar if meaning is preserved? Maybe I'm just a fuddy-duddy
perfectionist? Still, it does irk me.....
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It has got so bad that this university now require all first year
students to pass a standard English language proficiency test in the first
term. If they are unsuccessful, they must take courses in remedial English
until they do pass.
Actually, the problem is that the Secondary (and perhaps the Primary) school
system in Ontario has fallen victim of the Benjamin Spok syndrome. They are
more concerned with Johnny's little ego than whether Johnny can survive in
soceity. This is a direct result of all the experimenting that was conducted
by the educaterers [1] after the end of World War II when there was an
attempt to deal with the flood of war babies that were coming into the
school systems. Of course the UN "police" action in Korea helped to exacerbate
this problem in the '50s.
[1] For a treatment of the term "educaterer" see the motion picture
Goodbye, My Fancy (Robert Young and Joan Crawford). Good stuff on the fate
of education in America combined with a bittersweet romance.
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There are at least a few people left in this world who believe that language
provide a fixed framework for the communication of ideas between
people who have nothing in common except the language, but they are few,
(sorry, no comma, I changed my mind) and far between.
I can only hope that Edwin Newman and the various Princetonians (sic) will
prove immortal, because I see no one who is attempting to take their place.
It is interesting to note that the use of good English causes difficulties for
the user in this (forgive me) day and age. An explaination of this problem
would require several pages, and have the tone of a diatribe.(sp?)
I fear that I suffer from the "New Liberal Education", which is evident from
my writing, however, I refuse to be proud of illiteracy.
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I think that you really mean convenience. I find that the use of
a common blunder (none come to mind immediately) is often better understood
than the use of correct English. I have never been able to keep much patience
when I am asked to translate good English into the 'common language' for the
sake of a someone who has BS, MS and PhD from one of the better known schools.
My lack of patience has lead me to murder the language regularly, including
in written from, and at the request of reviewers, who ask for
corrections to the grammar in a non-grammatical fashion.(ARRRGHHHHH!)
The review process at this company [**deleted**] encourages such events
through a process known as the 'required revision'. Management does not care
-- perhaps I should say that they are tired of caring-- about such events,
and the remedy for most such events is to toss the paper or concede (and
commit barbarism). I have assumed that the situation is similar elsewhere,
however I would be interested in tales from one who knows.
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Some would say that the fault lies in our educational system,
and I would partly agree. As to other reasons for the general
problem, I am not in a position to speculate.
However, as to netnews, my own particular reason for bad spelling
is that there is no escape mechanism to the editor, to spell, etc.
Fortunately, Mail does provide such escapes!
PS will you summarize comments back to the net. Thanks.
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I agree. I do find I tend to have spelling mistakes of a typographical
origin in my computer mail, because i compose the message and type it
(2 or 3 fingers) all at once. I doubt that anything can be done in the
short term. If TV and computers were abolished, so kids would read
*real literature* more, a better sense of english form and style might
percolate into them? (some hope for the premise, though).
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In my opinion, there is a very simple reason why Engineers, Computer
Scientists, and other technical people have such a poor command of the
English Language; very few English courses are required to receive a degree
from this country's universities. When I was a student at UCLA ('73-'77),
only one English class was required for engineering students. That is 10
weeks out of a total of four years!
Unfortunately, there is no easy cure. The engineering program at UCLA
required four years of taking four classes per quarter. Any additional
required classes would just lengthen the time necessary to finish the
program.
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Well, I still get upset at such errors, but I've learned to live with them.
One of the commonest mistakes (and least understandable, to me) is the use
of "it's" when "its" is intended - I don't know how many times I've seen that
on painted signs! There are spelling and grammatical errors liberally
scattered through Berkeley's code. I don't think this is at all unique to
computer scientists; grammatical illiteracy seems much more apparent to me
now than it was 10 years ago. Perhaps in another 10 years the only literate
people will be English majors?
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You aren't alone. My wife and I (both technical staff here at [**deleted**] )
frequently share with each other the latest atrocities we've run across -
this in an environment where most of our peers (and up) have graduate
degrees. I believe you have to continue to call them as you see them,
letting others know what your standards are (or maybe just that you even
*have* standards).
When I was teaching at the University of Wisconsin, I saw lots of seeming
illiteracy (from the native speakers of English - the foreign students did
much better). After a few semesters of this, I began to start each course
with an announcement of the TRUE prerequisites for my class - throwing out
the inflated math "requirement" (this was *intro* programming), and
emphasizing my expectation that they do their best to communcicate as well
as they could. Suprisingly enough, it seemed to work!
I haven't found as simple a solution for here at work (yet), but I do try
to review as many documents before their publication as I can. So far, I
have refrained from jumping up and down about the rampant mis-use of 'to'
and 'too', among other things, but I may soon.
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I for one use the lame excuse that I tend to dash thoughts off quickly
and irresponsibly. This gets my ideas out before I can twist them.
If I go back to edit something (like a netnews submission) I tend
to butcher the content in an effort to 'clean it up'.
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I certenly agree!
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Here, here! Let's try to get our act together. I'd
hate to think that those who have anything to do with
computers will become outcasts of the scholarly
community because of something so trivial as abuse of
language. There are after all many good minds in the
computer oriented society. (If the phrase "abuse of
language" doesn't bother you think of it in German
terms, they would say "rape of language".
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You aren't the last of the die-hard traditionalists -- yes, there are
others who have similar strong feelings.
However, you seem to be saying that computer people are especially bad
offenders. From what I've seen at this university, the spelling and
grammar of the average computer science student is no worse than that
of the average arts student.
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You misspelled grammar in the text of your message.
My only theory about the poor grammar and spelling among technical
people relates to reading and writing. Many of them probably went
to public schools and did little or no creative writing. Many of
them are also TV junkies. Both factors contribute to poor language
skills.
==============================================================================
I hope you have enjoyed reading these interesting opinions as much as I did.
Ben Goldfarb
..duke!ucf-cs!goldfarb
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