Aucbvax.5881
fa.info-vax
utcsrgv!utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!info-vax
Wed Jan 20 23:32:12 1982
Shrager on Pandora's Box
>From decvax!duke!bcw@Berkeley Wed Jan 20 23:27:37 1982
I am afriad that I can't follow your argument at all.  I'd like
more information about your contentions:

[1] Pipes

Why are pipes so bad?  There's nothing which forces the use of
a pipe when the implementation is inefficient;  in fact, if a
program is going to use lots of computer time (either because
it runs a long time or because it is going to be run very
often), then the pipe mechanism should be foregone.  But it is
annoying to have to write a lot of "one off" programs to do
manipulations which will probably never have to be done again.
True, it isn't as general as Lisp (more on that later).  But
what system does better?  And how?  Specifics, please!

[2] Streams

Again, why are byte streams so bad?  In principle, their use
in most text processing is no more inefficient than records,
although I can believe that the Unix implementation can be improved
(what can't be?).  As far as records for other purposes go,
there are indeed a number of useful purposes for records in
non-text-processing applications.  How this affects the use or
non-use of records in text-processing applications escapes me.
I don't follow your argument about the ISAM database botch at
all -- why would a database want to convert its data from
an ISAM format into a text stream just to filter it through
the sort program?  Why is this a consequence of Unix (i. e.,
what feature of Unix FORCES the writing of such a database)?
Or is this simply an example of what you find as incompetent
coding style which you feel exists on Unix?  Again, specifics,
please!  I can't read your mind over the network!

[3] VMS

Again, please tell me why you feel VMS 'rots for a lot of other
worse reasons' (your words).  I have dealt with dozens of
operating systems and although Unix and VMS both have good and
bad points about them, in my experience neither deserves the

appellation 'the two loser systems of the decade' (again, your
words).  Again, specifics!  What operating systems do you find
superior?  Tenex?  Multics?  And what characteristic of your
favorite system do you find lacking in VMS or Unix?

[4] On Dogmatism

(Judging from your missive, a section which could be applied to
you as well)

Why has Unix set operating system development back 10 years?
There seem to be a number of investigations into the subject
which don't take this system as a given -- why does it affect
them?  And as for Lisp, APL, Mesa, and Smalltalk:  I was
under the impression that these were languages, usually
supplied with a programming environment a la most Basic
implementations;  what qualifies them to be compared to
operating systems?  Why can't you have an adequate Lisp
environment (for example) running under Unix or VMS?  I am
perfectly ready to believe that there are fundamental reasons
why this isn't possible, but your article is so long on
rhetoric and so short on facts that I am skeptical that your
opinion is anything more than emotionalism.  If I want that
I can get plenty of it from the soap operas -- I don't need
the network!

                       Bruce C. Wright @ Duke University

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