FidoNews is published weekly by the International FidoNet
Association as its official newsletter. You are encouraged to
submit articles for publication in FidoNews. Article submission
standards are contained in the file ARTSPEC.DOC, available from
node 1/1.
Copyright (C) 1987, by the International FidoNet Association.
All rights reserved. Duplication and/or distribution permitted
for noncommercial purposes only. For use in other circumstances,
please contact IFNA.
Look, Ma! Page Numbers!
Table of Contents
1. EDITORIAL ................................................ 1
What's in a Net? ......................................... 1
2. ARTICLES ................................................. 3
Review: Big Blue Disk .................................... 3
Benchmark Test Results ARC v.s. PKARC .................... 5
FEMINISM Echomail Conference ............................. 6
Calling All IFNA Jokesters! .............................. 7
PC-Desk reviewed ......................................... 8
FNEWSPRN -- A FidoNews Utility ........................... 10
Notes from the UK ........................................ 11
New Fido Sysop Utilities ................................. 14
3. COLUMNS .................................................. 15
Fido and the Hayes modem ................................. 15
The Regular Irregular Column ............................. 20
4. WANTED ................................................... 24
Information Clearinghouse -- A Call for Volunteers ....... 24
5. NOTICES .................................................. 25
The Interrupt Stack ...................................... 25
IFNA Board of Directors Ballot ........................... 26
FidoNews 4-17 Page 1 4 May 1987
We've grown some in the last couple of years. Like anything
else, we've had our growing pains, but by and large we seem to
have developed a pretty stable structure. The very fact of that
growth also means that we have many sysops and users out there
who weren't here a couple of years ago and didn't see what lead
up to the way things are now. So it's probably a good idea to
take a look at where we are, how we got here, and why.
First there was nothing. Then there was something. Then it
grew, and now it's big. End of history lesson. I'm not in the
mood to lecture on the History of FidoNet right now. Besides,
it's been done already. I just want to ramble a bit on The
Meaning of FidoNet and the Answer to the Ultimate Question. (The
Answer to the Ultimate Question, by the way, is "Pin 16 and pin
18." Does anybody happen to know what The Ultimate Question is?)
But the pins remind me of what started me on this. I spent
entirely too much money lately on a town and county map of the
U.S., drawn to a scale of about fifty miles to the inch and
mounted on foamcore. I then spent entirely too much time on the
totally futile endeavor of sticking little color-coded pins in
that map based on the latest node list. Ironically, I finished
up Thursday night, just in time for Ben Baker to make my map
obsolete. Well, at least it might be close for awhile.
It was an educational experience. I discovered something
significant. At least, I think it's significant. This network
is STRANGE. Let me give you some examples:
1) San Francisco has not one, not two, but THREE separate nets.
They don't cover separate parts of town -- they are all
intertwined.
2) The Pittsburgh net has a hub that includes nodes as far away
as Arkansas and California.
3) There is a node in Wisconsin that has TWO net hosts closer to
him than his own, and his net consists solely of himself and
his host.
4) Dallas and Fort Worth each have their own net (they are right
next to each other). Each net includes several nodes in the
other city. Meanwhile, Austin has a net that includes several
nodes in both Dallas and Fort Worth.
5) There are four states with no nodes at all. No, Alaska isn't
one of them. I guess it's understandable. One is Montana,
and there really isn't any Montana. It was blown up in an
atom bomb test forty years ago, and the government is keeping
it a secret. One is Nevada, and there isn't anybody in Nevada
FidoNews 4-17 Page 2 4 May 1987
besides tourists at the casinos. One is West Virginia, and
there ARE people in West Virginia, but they're all starving
coal miners who can't afford computers. I don't remember what
the other state was offhand, and I'm nowhere near the map at
the moment (see how handy that map is?)
I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. Why has
FidoNet grown so many quirks? I think it's at least partly
because many people hold differing views of just what FidoNet
really is. Since I'm the one typing at the moment, you'll get my
own answer.
FidoNet is first and foremost a mail system. It serves a great
many special interests, but it does not exist to support any one
of them. And by specifically supporting none of them, it can
better serve all of them. An example of this is the idea of
"special interest nets." We tried that with net 900 for the PCjr
crowd. It didn't work out too well. It was too hard to
coordinate, leading to all sorts of difficulties ultimately
resulting in poorer mail service, which helps no one and harms
everyone. FidoNet itself is a technical operation, and must be
managed on a technical basis for technical reasons if it is going
to properly support the purely technical goals of keeping the
mail flowing. Once we handle the technical problems of routing,
node list maintenance and distribution, mail throughput,
international links, and so forth, then and ONLY then can we
address how to USE the network in support of special interests.
Please note, I am NOT saying that we should ignore the special
interest groups. I'm only saying that we have to address the
technical issues first.
One mechanism that was developed to support the free flow of
ideas and information was that of the local network. Local
networks are intended to increase mail throughput, lower costs,
distribute node list maintenance, and that's all. Some people
have started thinking of local nets as being more important than
FidoNet itself. But FidoNet does not exist for the convenience
of the local nets. Rather, local nets exist for the convenience
of the sysops. Not the sysops who are in the local net, mind
you, but sysops who are NOT in the local net.
Here is the point of local nets in a nutshell: If I want to send
messages to three different nodes in Washington DC, it is more
convenient and cheaper for me to place one call than three. For
that reason, net 109 exists. There is one other reason as well.
It is very inconvenient and costly for me to try to send mail to
a node in Washington DC if he's gone off the air. So net 109 has
a guy there who is in charge of making sure that the list of
nodes in net 109 is correct. I'm in net 107, but net 107 does
not exist for my convenience. It exists for yours, so you can
reach me cheaper and can be sure that I'm really here.
I suspect that in the rush and hassle of day-to-day operation,
many people have lost sight of that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
FidoNews 4-17 Page 3 4 May 1987
I'm sure by now you've seen the ads for the Big Blue Disk that
keep showing up in FidoNews. It's sort of a magazine, except
that it's published on floppy disk instead of paper. Well, if
FidoNews can call itself a newsletter, then I suppose Big Blue
Disk can call itself a magazine.
I recently acquired a copy of issue #6 and checked it out. It's
actually quite impressive. It came in a slick clear plastic
package with some snazzy artwork on the "cover". Inside I found
an order form for subscriptions and back issues, two floppy
disks, and a card giving directions. ("Place disk #1 in drive A:,
type 'GO', and hit enter." Even I could manage it.) It only
works on an IBM or clone, as everything is done through their own
menu system. The disks by the way were black, not blue. A
couple of letters to the editor commented on that, but color
disks are still expensive enough that I can easily understand not
using them for a monthly publication.
Some nice graphics. Nice? Seems inadequate. They come up with
new stuff like this every month? How in the world do they manage
THAT? The instructions say it'll work on a monochrome adapter
and in your choice of 40 or 80 column width, but I confess I
didn't put them to the test. I assume the snazzy graphics and
color would be lost on a monochrome. The whole system is very
slick and has some cute touches. For example, when you're at the
end of an article and hit PgDn, the entire screen jiggles up and
down a couple of times, as if it's trying to pull up more text
but getting stuck and tugging the frame.
Enough of the mechanics. What really counts is the content,
right? Right! And Big Blue Disk has plenty. Issue #6 was the
April edition, and contained an interesting April Fool's section;
a satire of the Big Blue Disk! It was sort of a mini-magazine
within the magazine, with some totally bizarre features that you
have to see to believe. In addition there were some interesting
and informative news and opinion columns, and several programs.
Each program is accessed by a submenu that gives you the option
to read the docs, run the program, or copy the program onto your
own disk.
Not everything is a winner, of course. They had an "attribute
selection program" that was pretty trivial by anyone's standards,
plus a version of MV that I've seen done better.
But the real winner in my opinion will surprise you. I know it
surprised me. Of all things, Kalah by Brian Seitz. That's
right, the game Brian advertised right here in FidoNews for the
better part of a year. Guess what, gang -- it's GOOD! My
apologies for ever doubting you, Brian. Your game is better than
I would have ever imagined. I killed most of an afternoon
FidoNews 4-17 Page 4 4 May 1987
learning to beat the thing at level one. I'm almost afraid to
find out what the other three levels are like. I won't describe
the game, or you'll think I'm nuts. To hear the rules, it sounds
like the dumbest game ever invented. But play it once, maybe
twice, and you'll get hooked.
From the ads I've seen I gather that the Big Blue Disk often has
some amazing things on it. I think their special this month is
PC File, and in the past they've offered PC Write. What else do
they have in store? I don't know, but I'm sure of one thing: The
Big Blue Disk is a Big Blue Winner.
Results Benchmark Testing
Of
Arc Utility v.s. Pkarc Utility
The two utilities were tested on a disk containing 15 files with
an average file length of 19119 bytes. The total for all files
were 286785 bytes.
These tests were run on an IBM PC with 640k of RAM and running at
4.77 Mhz clock speed. The files were stored on a 360k floppy disk
and archived to a fresh directory on a Miniscribe 20 megabyte
hard drive.
The floppy disk was diagnosed and condensed (un-fragmented)
before the tests were run to be sure of file integrity. All
events were run 3 times and the average of the 3 runs is
displayed here as the result.
===========================================================
Program & Version Operation Average Time MM:SS:HH
===========================================================
PKARC 2.0 Create 01:58:35
PKARC 2.0 Verbose List 00:05:89
PKXARC 3.4 Extract Files 00:53:77
===========================================================
Program & Version File Size Created In Bytes
===========================================================
You're not an ordinary woman--or you wouldn't be reading this.
Want a chance to share your views on subjects that affect us, as
women, and how we affect the world? What does "feminism" mean to
you? (You'd probably be surprised at the diversity of opinion on
that one!) We've recently been discussing:
* Equal Rights / Civil Rights * Whether or not (fe)male
* The "Cinderella Syndrome" strippers are exploited
* Surrogate motherhood * Inequality (real and/or per-
* Equal parenting responsibility ceived) in the job market
Contact any one of the nodes below for a hookup!
Kim Storment, Fido 100/523
Feminism Conference Coordinator
NODE# NAME CITY, ST PHONE BAUD
14/341 Terraboard Minneapolis, MN 1-612-721-8967 2400
100/523 WeirdBase St. Louis, MO 1-314-389-9973 2400
107/6 SEAboard II Clifton, NJ 1-201-473-8522 2400
107/169 Utopian Quest NYC New York, NY 1-212-686-5248 1200
107/269 Utopian Quest LI Bellmore, NY 1-516-842-7518 1200
107/316 Metatek Fido Tom's River, NJ 1-201-286-2567 1200
124/103 Opus USA Plano, TX -Unpublished- 2400
124/109 The Diplomat Carrollton, TX 1-214-242-9399 2400
141/488 Alice's Restaurant Branford, CT 1-203-488-1115 2400
161/93 ThelemaNet Berkeley, CA 1-415-548-0163 2400
P.S. Men who are willing to think are welcome, too!
I suppose most of you have been reading the tripe passing
through the SYSOP Echo conference the last few weeks. If you
don't read it, you haven't missed much. Mostly there are insults
that make the war room on your local C-NET look tame.
However, there have been some very good non-insulting jokes
passing around. For example, Ken S. made a passing remark about
not receiving his Official IFNA Membership Card. Thom posted a
list of IFNA cardholder benefits that had me rolling. Things like
"Be able to cash checks up to $1,000,000 at any A&P," and "Use of
the Space Shuttle for one mission per year."
After the first message appeared concerning IFNA's printed
Nodelist, I posted a message saying:
"Actually, the ad contained a typo. In reality they are
selling official IFNA toilet paper, with you choice of Nodelist
or Policy pattern."
After I received a few replies on that one, I had an idea for
the Canonical Collection of IFNA Jokes. Know a good FidoNet or
IFNA joke? Have a copy of someone's hilarious post? Send it to
me. I'm going to compile them all, and release the collected
file. I'll probably send it to FidoNews too.
If anyone has the post of Thom's about cardholder's benefits,
I'ld really like that one too. I remember printing it out, but
can't find the paper. That's going at the top of the collection.
So, send you IFNA jokes to me at Phalse Opus, 107/35. And
maybe we'll even find out how many Fido Sysops it takes to screw
in a lightbulb!
I am driven to write this review of PC-Desk for two reasons. The
first is that I use it, and I don't use just anything. The
second is that it has been reviewed so negatively by so many
different reviewers, which runs so contrary to my experience.
So lets start by talking about why I use it, and accidently about
what it is. PC-Desk keeps files of addresses, phone numbers, and
assorted other data. You say, "Oh how everyday! Sidekick and
Dbase II can do that!" And so they can, but PC-Desk can write
letters too. And insert today's date. And insert the address of
the person to whom you are writing during printing. And insert
the form of address you chose when creating this person's record,
as long as it begins with "Dear" (could be "Sir", "Gail", or even
"Reverend Dr. Smith"). And it can print the entire list OR a
particular subset of them up as an address list, or just a phone
list, or on mailing labels, or on rolodex cards. And it can dial
the phone numbers included, using a choice of two per record.
And it can do form letters, and even insert one variable, like
the amount they owe you, plus reusing their name freely. AND, it
will print envelopes with your return address and their address.
And if the above weren't enough, it will create a whole bunch of
identical labels, let you use a printing tape calculator (on
screen or actually using the printer), keep your appointment
calendar, and if you like, do it resident, so you can use other
software.
Now, from personal experience, I know of no word-processor that
will do all of that without an external database program. And
there exist separate programs to do things like address
envelopes, and make rolodex cards and so on. The problem is that
one either has to make several copies of the entire list by hand
in these separate programs, or run 3 or 4 residents together, or
spend one's entire life converting from one file format to
another, which I garantee is a headache.
And if that weren't enough, telephone support is very good, from
the author himself.
So why don't the reviewers like it?
It has menus. True, on one of them it'll use single letters to
invoke commands, on another it'll use numbers, and on the word-
processing module, it uses function keys. To invoke the pop-up
calculator it uses ALT-C, and the same for other popups. And ESC
will get you out of almost anything, even when it isn't on the
menu. So the superficial reviewer will get caught up in these
cosmetic flaws and miss the fact that the program WORKS.
FidoNews 4-17 Page 9 4 May 1987
Also, I've seen it compared to desk accesory programs, mailing
list programs, and even word processors. The feature comparison
kills PC-Desk, because it isn't really any of those, but does
some of all of them. The 300 line limit on the word-processor is
enough for any letter I write normally -- longer ones are really
small novels and deserve the attention of a dedicated word
processor. The 200 record limit per file doesn't put it in
competition with dBase III in the data base world, but its more
than I want in any ONE file (I keep separate files for my
business, my square dance group, my wife's business, computer
vendors etc.).
In other words, it does it all, it doesn't require that you
retype everything all the time, and it works. I know of no other
program which does all that. If you want to write a novel, or do
mass mailings, you'll want something else. If you want a place to
keep your small businesses actual customers, file all of your
repair and support numbers and addresses, print simple invoices,
keep your address book AND print it out, you'll want PC-Desk.
If you're like me, you look forward eagerly to the next issue
of FidoNews. It's always full of interesting articles, notes,
suggestions, announcements, or whatever. It adds an extra
'flavor' that so many non-FidoNet BBS's lack.
The biggest problem I've been having has been reading it. I
never seem to have the time to sit down and browse through it,
and printing it all out seems to be an enormous waste of paper
when all that I want is one or two articles. So, to alleviate my
problems, I've written a utility program that I call FNEWSPRN. I
wrote it in Microsoft BASIC on the WANG APC, because that's the
computer that's on my desk at work. I tried to make it as
'structured' as I could, and as generic as possible, so that it
would be easy to work with and also run on many different types
of microcomputers.
The program allows you to see what FidoNews issues are in the
current directory, view an individual one, or print selected
pages. It doesn't use any special graphics. It does run slower
than I would like, even when compiled, if it's running on a 4.77
Mhz PC. On faster machines, it runs at an acceptable speed.
I've been told that FNEWSPRN needs to be improved. I agree,
but the lack of time that prompted me to finally write this
utility keeps me from making the effort immediately. The major
things will have to be, 1) A way to handle archived FidoNews
issues; and 2) An on-line interface for use as a BBS "Outside"
function.
There has been some EchoTalk as to where and to whom FidoNews
'belongs.' As far as I am concerned, its current IFNA sponsorship
is fine with me, as the current Editor seems to be doing a fine
job. My FNEWSPRN utility is my effort at supporting the
magazine. Please feel free to distribute it, and to make copies
available to BBS callers for use on their machines.
FNEWSPRN is not an official IFNA utility. Instead, per the
Editor's suggestion, it is released to the public domain for the
benefit of all. If you like it, thank IFNA. If you don't like
it, write your own version and send me a copy.
You can file request FNEWSPRN.BAS, 14,980 bytes; FNEWSPRN.EXE,
59,658 bytes; or FNEWSPRN.ARC, 6,351 bytes, from my node,
142/216. The .BAS file is in ASCII format. The .ARC file
contains only the BASIC file; crunching on the .EXE file was
minimal. Or, you can log on and download any of these directly.
Enjoy it!
Steve Townsley
Opus / SEAdog 510/17
CCITT V21,V23,V22,V22bis
A Word About Standards
This is the first time I have written and article for FidoNews
although in England I will write around 3000 words every couple
of weeks or so. The main problem is not the material, it is
rather the problem of incompatibilty which prevents us in
Europe getting our message to you in the States.
For many of you reading this sending an article to FidoNews is
a simple affair, file attach to 1/1 at 2400 using your USR
modem or "real" Hayes. The FCC cares very little as to whether
your modem is a Taiwanise Hayes clone, runs CCITT tones or BELL
103/212a.
Over in the UK things are very different. Firstly, in order not
to receive a visit from the authorities I have to use a modem
which has gone through a series of approval tests. Secondly,
few of these modems use BELL tones. Thirdly, all must adhere to
the recommedations of the CCITT. Fourthly, approval is a long,
complicated and expensive process for all modem manufacturers.
Converting into dollars, the cheapest useable, approved modem
which could be described as Hayes is the WS4000. It costs
around $300 and will auto-answer at V21 or V23. It is a
variation of Hayes 1200 as it will auto-answer at 300 bps or
1200/75, but mail can only be done at 300 bps (V21).
The V23 standard is a popular in Europe because of Viewdata
services, where it is a standard speed, and for downloading
over crummy phone lines, of which there are many. A V23 modem
can be picked-up for $10 by anyone. So for the user of systems
in Europe a V23 modem is the cheapest way into comms. The 75bps
channel allows the user to type in messages at typing speed and
the 1200 bps channel allows cheap downloading.
The crunch for UK Sysops is that providing access to V23
callers means eiher spending $600 on a modem with V22 as well (to
talk to the States), or buying a $300 Hayes and sending mail at
300 bps. Hayes modems in the Uk which use V21/23 are 1200 bps for
our users but only 300 bps for Sysops.
Obviously we should buy modems that use V21,V23 and V22.
However now you are lokking at prices of around $600 dollars. A
real "Hayes" 1200/1200 modem costs around $750. Moreover, the
real "Hayes" does not use V21 or V23, and combined modems use
the CCITT recommendations on V22. Yes, the tones are compatible
with Bell 212a but, V22 modems will often wait for a V25 answer
tone before sending any data. So the UK sysop, even if he buys
a V22 modem still may not be able to send data to the US
because a BELL 212a modem does not send an answer tone
FidoNews 4-17 Page 12 4 May 1987
compatible with the CCITT V25 recommendation.
Perhaps we should buy a V22bis modem. Well prices in Europe
start at around $1100 dollars although the Dowty Quattro with
such things as BELL 212a compatiblity comes in at just $1300.
Remember we still have to offer V23 to our callers whose modems
change hands for around $10.
However, let me suppose that we in Europe suddenly solved all
the problems of the modems, our next problem would be getting
the modems to send CONNECT 1200 everytime a CONNECT 1275
happened because both Fido and Opus don't understand about V23.
SEAdog (Version 4.0) solves the problem by accepting 1275 as a
proper connect message.
Let me assume that the IFNA Committees insist that all Fido
compatible software must accept CONNECT 1275 as a valid 1200 bps
message, not unreasonable since it is merely an ASCII string.
The problems of Europe would still not be totally over as
currently we are fast loosing our position in the nodelist. The
1200 node limit of Fido is most accutely a problem in Europe
and Austrailia. If you cannot mail someone without an address
and you cannot keep the addresses of all nodes in the system we
will add just one one more problem into the cumulative problems
of international links that we had from day one.
As we run Opus, the other week, in an effort to find out more
about aspects of these problems, I logged onto the Dallas Opus
Help BB run by David Finster. In a sense I was pleased to read
the questions YOU, the US Sysops, are now asking about 9600 bps
modems. For, in your own way, you are now experiencing first hand
the frustration of non-standards that have plagued Europe from
day one of running Fido.
European BBS's, and other suppliers of data services, are
governed by the international standards of the CCITT. Non of us
really like the idea that we cannot use BELL tones, or cannot
just plug a USR 2400 bps straight online legally. We don't like
the idea that we cannot participate fully in net activity until
we can communicate at a common standard.
I would now argue that with the growth of nets outside the US
and the large number of systems that need to use the standards
imposed by the CCITT that the net should have a policy on
standards.
Up until now it has been the cry of Europe, unable to afford
the high price of approved CCITT equipment, that has wanted an
agreed standard. I would argue that "standards" is now a
net-wide issue. If US Sysops are to go 9600 bps, and they have
an influence on how modems are to be designed, they should insist
that modems are capable of communicating at CCITT recommended
data rates as well as BELL or one manufacturer's own new
standard.
FidoNews 4-17 Page 13 4 May 1987
Many US Sysops must have noticed that more and more European
BBS's are now offering 2400 bps. Little by little European
manufacturers are offering some compatability with US BELL tones.
It has taken the best part of two years to get UK manufacturers
to adopt the Hayes standard. Only some offer BELL tones. There
should be no reason why a modem cannot listen to a phone line,
determine whether an incoming call corresponds to BELL or CCITT
standards and answer with the correct tone. We in Europe are
constantly campaigning for such a modem. Whilst debating the use
of 9600 bps, all of you in the US should demand a modem that
talks to the world and not just Joe Public in the next town!
The moral of this tale... Europe has suffered because the CCITT
standards are not universal. In the next speed jump to 9600 we
must adopt a standard that can be approved for connection to
the phone line in any country in the world. This may mean that
that whatever modem is choosen it must use CCITT tones or yet
again we could face years of incompatibility.
Several new Fido utilities have been released for Fido Sysops
this week.
The first is FILESBBS.EXE and is distributed in an Arc file that
has been named FILESBBS.ARC.
This simple utility is run in any directory and it will create a
sorted FILES.BBS file for you. It will allow you to enter a
description for each file in the directory. The program will
then prompt you for a description to be placed in the DIR.BBS
file which it will then create. This is good for systems which
have downloads from floppys and are changed regularly. Run it on
each floppy and you have created both files in one shot. The
version is 3.2 and is available on Fido 107/201 as well as some
other boards around the area.
The second utility is called QUESTION.EXE and is in an Arc file
that has been named QUESTION.ARC.
This utility can be run either under OUTSIDE or OUTER and allows
the sysop to create up to 25 different sets of questions for the
caller to answer.
While still in it's infant stages QUESTION.EXE works and will be
developed further if there is enough interest from other Fido
Sysops. Again this is available from 107/201 and from some other
systems around the area.
OUTSIDE is available from 107/211. OUTER is available from
151/104 or many other systems.
Why, I did write this memo is, that a lot of sysop's don't
know how FIDO treats the modem control lines and which Hayes
AT-command's he send over the dataline in the different
states of FIDO itself. For some of you, this is wellknown
information, but some not. For those it can be a help for
problem solving. Also this kind of search for truth on the
modemlines never ends, as it can be changed with each FIDO-
version. So this is a start document. If anyone has more
information please tell me.
The FIDO version I used, was 11-W.
The lines were observed with a datascope device, but can
also be done with a terminal which translates the control
char. into readable characters. You must have for this two
COM-ports, from which you use both RXD-entries. One RXD-
entrie is connected with the TXD-line. Most datascopes can
handle only one speed at the time, I used 2400 baud and as
such did use a ROUTE.B file with two defined nodes, one at
300 and one at 2400 Baud. As line observer I used a small
BREAKBOX, which did display the V24-lines.
1. The FIDO_IBM program and the modem.
The FIDO_IBM program was started up with some parameters as
2400/N 11/J 128/V 5/S 1/G only. So the commandline was:
FIDO_IBM 2400/N 11/J 128/V 5/S 1/G
As FIDO starts up, he talks towards the modem with a speed
defined with the /J and /N parameters. As there are a lot of
combinations, I did only observe the 300, 600, 1200 and 2400
for /N and 1/J (Hayes) and 11/J (Hayes 2400).
The speed is 300 Baud for all 1/J params (xxxx/N don't
care) and for 11/J with 300/N only.
The speed is 2400 Baud for 11/J with 600, 1200, or 2400/N
param's. Hang on, during mailing other speeds are used. The
speed used at log-off are the same as log-on. As FIDO comes
with the "Initialise modem", towards the modem first the
DTR-line is set true (pin 20) and than the fixed internal
AT-commands are forwarded and if a FIDOMDM.BBS file is
present these are send after the internal ones. So you can
override the default FIDO settings. The default modem
commands FIDO sends always, are dependent on the /J switch
and well:
(I use here _ for the real x'0D'=carriage return).
For 1/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X1_ <contents FIDOMDM.BBS>
FidoNews 4-17 Page 16 4 May 1987
As said on 300 baud.
For 5/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X1_ <contents FIDOMDM.BBS>
On 300 baud.
For 7/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X1S18=0_ <contents FIDOMDM.BBS>
On 300 baud.
For 10/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X1S17=3Z_<contents FIDOMDM.BBS>
On 300 baud.
The last Z I don't understand, because according
the HAYES it reset to defaults back again.
For 11/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X4&D2&C1&W_ <FIDOMDM.BBS>
As said on 2400 baud.
For 12/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X3_ <contents FIDOMDM.BBS>
On 2400 baud.
For 2/J, 3/J, 4/J and 8/J noting is send over the
modemlines, so it seems Fido controls it via seperate I/O-
addresses.
FIDO is not reacting on the verbal return of the modem, but
is looking forward to the CARRIER line from the modem. The
relation between the internal DCD (carrier) and the D25 pin
can be set with the /V param.
For the true IBMPC's it means as example:
Pin 8 (DCD) for 128/J or pin 5 (CTS) for 16/J or no /J
param.
So if the DCD becomes true, due to the fact, the modem did
establishe a connection, the FIDO starts really up to serve
the caller. Now there are 3 ways FIDO is terminating the
session:
1. If the DCD becomes false, because the modem terminates.
2. FIDO terminates, because the caller is terminating the
session in an ordery way.
3. The user didn't react within x minutes (from the x/S)
All three cause only a DTR set shortly FALSE on which the
modem must reply with DCD is false. If this happens correct,
the FIDO starts up again and gives _AT_ only towards the
modem at a speed according to the speed as it was during the
last connection with the modem. If however, the modem keeps
the DCD true, and FIDO raises its DTR again to true the FIDO
reacts with another trial via the HAYES-command
(silence)+++(silence)_ATH0_. On this, the modem has to react
with DCD is false otherwise FIDO starts screaming which only
can set quit with ^C. So also a late DCD=false don't help.
Fido don't look to the Highspeed modem control line (pin 12
or 23) as set by the HAYES modems. Even it don't look to the
result codes given by the modem at the time a call is
incoming. So in sequence after the bell rings, the modem
sends 2 (ring) and after the modem detects a carrier it
sends 1,5 or 10 (=CONNECT 300,1200 or 2400). FIDO looks only
to the DCD line and if raised true, it detects on the
firstcoming character (space or CR), on which speed the
modem circuit is working. That is basically all FIDO does in
FidoNews 4-17 Page 17 4 May 1987
normal FIDO-mode.
The FIDONET-mode is more street forward. At mailtime in fact
nothing happens exept that depending on the speed as defined
in the NODELIST.BBS for the node as given in the ROUT.tag
file, the FIDO forwards with that speed the dialcommand to
the modem. So it is expected that the modem establishes a
connection at this speed with the called modem. On this
point a lot of clones are non compatible. This however if
you actually have POLL or SEND statements in your ROUT.tag
file. If you have e.g. only RECV-ONLY, really nothing
happens towards the modem. If you have a command into your
ROUTE.tag, which results in a DIAL-action, this dial-command
is for all modes:
ATDT<number>_
T (touch) or P (pulse), FIDO only serves the
T(ouch) mode. It has to deal with your local telephone
company only, and if you unlucky are connected with an old
Telephone equipment (there are still a lot), the only thing
you can do is with DEBUG find the ATDT string in
FIDO_IBM and change it into ATDP.
Depending on the return code (numbers and no verbal text),
FIDONET goes on or dials another number. Very important with
HAYES modems is, the modem returns the result code at the
speed of the ATDT command. Even if a lower speed is
detected, which can happen with V22(bis). The true HAYES
modem only changes its speed towards the FIDO after the
result code is send. Once got a connection with the called
node, the x/G switch is decreased. So if your x/G switch (in
FIDO_IBM) is 1/G, after one connection per each node, this
node will not be dialled again. Even, if after the
connection something is going wrong. If all nodes as
specified in the ROUTE.tag file are dialled with 1.5 to 2
sec. intervall (It is a little random, and not done in
SEND_ONLY) and no connection is found, the FIDONET continous
dialling. However, sometimes he is doing it twice and
sometimes upto 10 times a night. So suppose you have two
nodes into your ROUTE.tag to POLL, and at the first attempt
both have a connection, than for the rest of the mailtime no
actual dial will be done. Of course if an incomming call is
detected (POLL/ SEND by another fido), this is handled.
After a connection in MAIL-time FIDO's send always verbal,
also to each other, to call back later, because its
mailtime. However NON-fidomailers if calling will be
accepted, but as they send no Tsync, they are thrown off the
line. A real mailing FIDO (calling party) wait's for the end
of the above mentioned message and reacts with a Tsync code
(x'AE') towards the called FIDO. This called FIDO sends now
a C (I think from connect) if he is in mail mode. Now
actually the mail is exchanged. If no mail connection is
established the calling FIDO after a short time reacts with
making its DTR line false, after which the modem is
disconnected. Immediatly FIDO raises the DTR and goes in a
random time-out (ca. 1.9 sec.), before calling the next
number. During this time an incoming mailcall can be
FidoNews 4-17 Page 18 4 May 1987
handled.
One thing is very clear, the both fido modems have to find
out, who is originator and who is answering. This because
otherwise they can not make a connection. The only way to
fix this, is that a HAYES modem, which get a dial-command,
automatically goes into originate mode and dials. Note, that
before FIDONET started, the both modems where in answering
mode and FIDO did NOT change that. It sounds logical, but if
it is done by all HAYES-compatibles, You know??.
If the modem reacts after a dialup with a busy, no dial tone
or even no sign of live (silence) code, the message "NO
CONNECT" is given. This even with an ATX4-command mode,
If a connect code is given, the FIDONET starts to test the
other side on mailing mode etc. Here The same happens as in
normal session mode. So the FIDO can terminate and the other
side or the DCE-connection can end the session.
2. Some thoughs about this all.
With the Hayes modems, a lot is described, but also a lot is
not. This has nothing to do with the "defacto standard
Hayes", but is true for each Specification. The three main
areas of problems are:
- the not described commands,
- the speed selection or the scanning pattern,
- the speed conversion.
The not described commands are for some not a surprise, but
for others it is. Take for example the commands as forwarded
to the modem as decribed above in part 1.
The AT with V0, Q0, E0, S0=1, M0, X4 and &W where known to
me. but AT&D2 and AT&C1 I didn't known. Even with the
ROBOTICS-2400 manual, its not described and also not
available. This till I got an original HAYES-2400 handbook.
With this last book in hand I realised, that every clone had
more or less followed the HAYES till HAYES-1200 and did go
there way, more or less functually compatible. But Hayes did
go further with the 2400 version. So not to confuse this
documents with all that new stuff, another file is available
called HAYES1.ART
As given before the standard settings of FIDO are:
For 1/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X1_ <contents FIDOMDM.BBS>
For 11/J
_AT_ATV0Q0E0S0=1M0X4&D2&C1&W_ <FIDOMDM.BBS>
At the end of a session: (silence)+++(silence)_ATH0_
Not to copy the modem book, but shortly to explain the
commands:
_AT Requests the modem to return the OK sign or code 0.
FIDO neglects the return as ATV0 is not set.
_ATV0 Result code set to figures (stead words).
The next commands are in one AT string, but has to be seen
if _AT was preceding it.
_ATQ0 Result codes visible.
_ATE0 Echo off.
_ATS0=1 Set number of rings to 1, before hook off.
FidoNews 4-17 Page 19 4 May 1987
_ATM0 Set speaker off.
_ATX1 Set extended result code set (codes 0-4).
_ATX4 Set extended set with wait for dial tone and full
set of 10 result codes.
_AT&D2 Set modem in 108/2 mode.
_AT&C1 Set Carrier Detect on carrier detected.
_AT&W Write settings as tempory factory settings.
(silence)+++(silence) Gets modem into command mode. Hello, I
have changed my modem into another escapemode, so it will
not work on my FIDO.
_ATH0 Hook on. (Disconnect modem from line).
On all above commands FIDO neglects the return code, which
is only given after the RETURN in the command string.
What me make a little nervous, What is my modem doiing, if
it gets an _ATX4_ if my modem only has X1 and X2. If he is
neglecting X4, than my previous set X2 is kept. My modem
neclects &C1, but The &W was executed. That is clever, So
for security I am not using 11/J, but still 1/J. As one of
my modems, the Kingfisher knows the _ATX4_command, I did put
this in my own FIDOMDM.BBS This gives a much better dial
process, as dialtones, engaged signal, etc. The DATAD-1024
has only till X2, so I need different FIDOMDM.BBS files.
One thing in FIDO needs in my opinion an upgrade. If a
connection is not established, FIDO gives always NO CONNECT.
This is basically true, but more information would be
welcome in the MAILER1.LOG. This while most modems are
giving a detailed result code, from which I good detect if
my local Tel. company is overloaded, giving me no dial tone
or the other side is to busy always or that connections
between telephone districts are too busy. It gives me
arguments towards the Tel. company. This will not help, but
I can push them with real facts.
Ref.1. HAYES-1200 Handbook. (USA)
Ref.2. HAYES-2400 Handbook. (USA)
Ref.3. ROBOTICS-2400 and RIXTON-312 Handbooks. (USA)
Ref.4. DATAD-1024 Handbook (Neth.)
Ref.5. KINGFISHER-2400 Handbook (GB)
Ref.6. Hayes standard from Bert Koopman FIDO 500/100
Modems used:
DATAD-1024 V21,V22,V22(bis),V23 (split baud)
KINGFISHER-2400s V21,V22,V22(bis),V23 (split baud)
RIXON-312 BELL-103, BELL-212A.
ROBOTICS-2400 BELL-103, V22 and V22(bis).
HAYES-1200 BELL-103 and BELL-212A.
Note: Bell-212 mostly works with V22 but is not guaranted
Reactions, positive aswell negative please return to me.
Ignaat Simons, FIDO 508/4, Tel. 055-421284 or via FIDONET.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
FidoNews 4-17 Page 20 4 May 1987
Welcome back, this week hasn't been as hectic at work so I
was able to spend some time trying out a few new things on my
system. A lot of the time was spent trying out my new video card
on a lot of "old" software, and in the process I discovered a few
things. I'm still looking for someone in the area who has
WordPerfect so I can try it out, but in the meantime Microsoft
Word is performing quite well. Monday night there was a local
sysops meeting (not just FidoNet people, it was open to all
sysops regardless of BBS software) and that helped get me out of
the depression I mentioned last week (from reading the Sysop
echomail conference).
-- even more MSC 4.0 and now MASM 4.0 --
In the first of these columns I went over the neat new
compiler I had just bought, Microsoft's latest version of C. From
time to time I've gone back and mentioned it, and last week I had
another chance to "test" its capabilities. A program came across
Usenet that is supposedly (I haven't had a chance to actually
test it out yet) a uucp (Unix to Unix copy program) program for
PCs. I am somewhat interested in this as uucp is what Unix uses
to talk to other machines. In any case there were two parts to
the program; one was in C, and the other part was in assembly
language. While the C part compiled with no problems, the
assembly language part was a problem because I didn't have an
assembler. Since I am interested in software like this I went
down and bought Microsoft's Macro Assembler (list price $150,
version 4.0) from my local dealer (the C compiler had a rebate
card worth $25 which made it a little less painful). Armed with
this, I quickly assembled the second part and linked the
programs. I looked over the docs on the assembler and it looks
nice, although to be honest I don't know assembly language. I
suppose I should learn it, and with some of the new columns in
FidoNews I will probably make the effort. If the program works,
we should be seeing some more Usenet stuff in FidoNet. I don't
think we'll ever have a PC running a full Usenet however, I'm
told they usually process 2 meg of mail every day! What it will
do is expand the horizons of telecommunications by making our PCs
more versatile. After I've had a chance to try out the software
I'll let you know how it works out and where to obtain it.
-- ATI's EGA Wonder (list price $399.00) --
I finally got my new video card this week and it seems to be
working well. I had a few problems with the installation, but it
didn't take to long to get it up and running. The EGA Wonder is
kind of a swiss army knife of video cards. It supports hardware
compatibility with the IBM CGA and EGA video cards and hardware
compatibility with the Hercules monographics card. In addition to
supporting these standards it has it's own 132 column mode and
they include a driver for Lotus 1-2-3 that gives you 132 column
by 44 rows. While you can find a few other cards that do this,
what the other cards can't do is give you any of these video
modes on any monitor. No matter what type of monitor you
currently have, it will run software for any video card (on that
same monitor). This means that even if you have an EGA only
FidoNews 4-17 Page 21 4 May 1987
monitor or a TTL monochrome monitor you can run CGA software (or
Hercules software) or run EGA software on your CGA monitor. If
this still isn't enough to satisfy you, the EGA Wonder will
switch between many of the video mode automatically. If you've
got it set as a color EGA and start to run some CGA software, it
will automatically switch itself into the CGA mode where it is
completely compatible with a "real" CGA video card. There's only
one catch on the auto-switching, it won't automatically switch
between color and monochrome modes. If you've got the card set to
come up as a CGA card (or color EGA mode), you've got to run a
program to make the card act like a Hercules monographics card.
This isn't too difficult, and the program they provide can be run
from menus or directly from DOS ("SMS M80" to make it the
monochrome mode).
I did have a few problems installing the card, but they were
both resolved fairly quickly. The first one is the card insists
on having interrupt level 2 to itself. I had another card set for
that interrupt level and couldn't figure out what was wrong until
I looked at the Diagnostics and Troubleshooting section of the
manual. In there it specifically states that "The EGA Wonder will
not co-exist with another device that uses interrupt level 2."
This wasn't a problem as I just needed to change a jumper on the
multi-function board. The other problem was primarily my fault as
well. The card was designed to work with IBM monitors and while
this wouldn't usually present any problems, it did present a
problem for me. In the same section as the interrupt information
they say that on some compatible monitors a horizontal and/or
vertical hold control may be needed. My problem was that my
monitor (a Samsung SM-12SF, amber TTL monochrome) doesn't have
either of these controls on the outside. When I went into any of
the color graphics (not text) modes the screen rolled up. First
thing I did was panic! Next I called up my dealer and asked what
other monitors he could get in quickly. After he mentioned the
lines he could get in less than 24 hours, I called up ATI and
asked if the EGA Wonder had been tested with either of the ones I
had chosen (an Amdek 310A, monochrome TTL, or the Amdek 722,
color EGA). They were able to tell me instantly as they use both
of those monitors. Since I didn't really need a new monitor, I
took one last look at the Samsung monitor (which I have been very
pleased with) and found a notation that the vertical and
horizontal hold controls were inside the monitor. I quickly took
the case off the monitor and located the controls. In a few more
minutes I had everything hooked back up (with the monitor's case
off) and was able to adjust the horizontal hold to the proper
setting, which is to say the picture didn't roll in any of the
video modes. Put everything back together, and it works like a
charm. I may still end up getting an EGA monitor, but there's no
hurry as I can get to get all the video modes (granted, in shades
of amber/orange). Lesson learned is that I will never buy another
monitor without EXTERNAL hold controls. While I wouldn't
recommend this procedure to everyone, it did work. If you don't
have any external hold controls on your monitor, I hope you got
everything from a good dealer as he should be able to perform
this minor surgery for you. I know mine would be willing to do it
free for anyone who bought their system from him, the card and
FidoNews 4-17 Page 22 4 May 1987
monitor, and possibly even someone who just got the card as well.
If you've gotten everything mail order and don't feel like
opening up your equipment, be prepared to spend some bucks if
this turns out to be necessary.
I've currently got the card set up to come up as a
monochrome graphics card. This was necessary as some of my
software tries to use colors when possible, and I didn't like the
way it looked on my monochrome monitor. I probably could have
changed most of the software, but didn't think it was really
necessary. When I want to run one of those stupid copy protected
programs that you boot off of, I run the "LOADGAME" program that
ATI provides with the EGA Wonder. It would be nice if the
software manufacturers would accept the fact that all of us are
not pirates, and that not everyone has a CGA card and monitor. In
a way I almost regret (after all, I do get a lot of neat things
with the card) that I needed this card to run a lot of my
software. Too many authors seem to think that no one has a
Hercules monographics card or an EGA card, and end up shutting
themselves out of good sized (in my opinion) portion of the
market. A Hercules compatible monographics card and a TTL
monochrome monitor are usually a lot cheaper than a CGA card and
a RGB monitor (approx. $250 vs. $450). Compliments go to
Electronic Arts for not only not copy protecting most of their
programs (no need for the loadgame program) and for supporting us
Hercules monographics board users out here, well... former Herc
card user.
Since I am seriously considering buying an EGA monitor (some
programs just doesn't look right in shades of orange), I'm glad I
still have an old monochrome text board lying around. You can
have a dual display system with either a MDA board (monochrome
text), or a CGA card. I can still have Microsoft's Codeview
debugger "running" the program on the EGA Wonder/EGA monitor
combination while tracing the program on the monochrome text
board/monitor. For you Fortran people, Microsoft is now including
Codeview (and support for it) in their new Fortran compiler. If
you've never heard of Codeview, look at some back issues of
FidoNews for my more complete review.
-- Winding down... --
I think the Top Gun overdose has finally worn off. I
succeeded in testing the "bug" in JET and found it doesn't exist.
The only way to get the re-arm menu up is to have the gear down
and be on the ground when you go through the hanger. As an
alternative to JET, I looked at F-15 Strike Eagle from MicroProse
(list price $34.95) and came away a little disappointed. The
people at MicroProse don't seem to realize what a joystick is
like on an IBM. Even though we have a real joystick, F-15 treats
it as an 8 position switch. MicroProse would have done much
better to take advantage of the capabilities of each machine for
which they make F-15, rather than doing a extremely strict
translation between the different versions. One thing I did enjoy
was that in F-15 the enemy planes actually engage you for aerial
combat, in JET they seem to just shoot missiles like crazy. I
FidoNews 4-17 Page 23 4 May 1987
suppose I'd actually enjoy a "flight simulator" that had
dogfights like F-15, while having the top-notch controls of JET.
If anyone knows of such a program, please let me know about it. I
would be very interested in such a program (hmm...maybe I'm still
under the effects of that "overdose").
In my ever continuing quest to learn more about WordPerfect,
I've come across a book that explains a lot about it. The book is
"WordPerfect Tips and Tricks" by Alan R. Neibauer (Sybex Inc.,
$18.95). While it is not as good as "Using WordPerfect" for the
beginner, it does have a lot in it for the more advanced user. My
only regret is that I don't have WordPerfect yet. The book seems
to be made for people who like to sit down and try out new ideas,
this includes hacker type people like me. I would have liked to
try some of the shortcuts and macros they present, but it will
have to wait until I can afford to buy a copy of WordPerfect. The
book doesn't cover much of the basics, and is aimed primarily at
the power user, or someone who is interested in expanding his
knowledge of WordPerfect. I found it to be very well written, and
it answered many of the questions I had about WordPerfect.
That ties up the column for this week. I'd like to hear your
comments on anything I've written about, or something you think
should be investigated. Down below, you'll find me FidoNet
net/node number, my Usenet address, and my US mail address. If
you're a user of BBS trying to send me netmail, please mention to
your sysop that netmail to me must be routed through either
157/0, 157/1, or 157/502; he will know what you mean. If you're a
sysop who is trying to reach me, just take note of the previous
sentence. All of these nodes are running SEAdog, so you shouldn't
have to worry to much about mail schedules. They are all capable
of forwarding a file to me, and are willing to do it as well.
Dale Lovell
3266 Vezber Drive
Seven Hills, OH 44131
Someone put a truly excellent idea into one of the echoes
recently. I wish I had saved the message -- I don't even know
who entered it, but whoever you are, I want to thank you.
The concept of "HELP nodes" worked pretty well for a while, but
each help node is operated independently, and it is easy to let a
request slip through the cracks. Even worse, there are now so
many help nodes it is difficult for a neophyte to determine just
where to turn.
I think it is time to replace this system with the
"clearinghouse" concept that has worked well in the past for Fido
bug reports. I would like to establish two nodes as INFORMATION
East and INFORMATION West. These nodes would be the focal point
for ALL requests for information on ANY topic. The Sysops
running these nodes would NOT need to be experts on all, or even
any particular subjects. But they would have to know who and
where the experts are. And they would need to be fairly
organized individuals because they would need to record and track
inquires, forward them to appropriate people, do follow-ups to
insure no inquiry gets lost, and keep each other informed. They
would probably build a stock-pile of "standard answers" in text
file form to answer the most frequent questions directly. In
short, they would become the net's information traffic managers.
So I'm looking for volunteers. Here are a set of qualifications
I think are necessary to the job:
1. Must be well organized. (I think I just disqualified myself.)
2. Not already burdened with a lot of other activities or respon-
sibilities. I suspect this will turn out to be a BIG job.
3. Diplomacy is a must. They must be able to work well with
novice questioners and the techies with the answers alike.
4. Some technical competence, while not essential, is certainly
desirable. There are very few software tools to help in this
task, and some will probably need to be developed.
If you are tired of sitting on the sidelines and would like to
get involved in FidoNet operations in a very real sense, send me
net mail detailing your qualifications. I would like to make
selections for the two positions in time that the listings may
appear in NODELIST.135, so please don't delay.
24 May 1987
Metro-Fire Fido's Second Birthday BlowOut and Floppy Disk
Throwing Tournament! All Fido Sysops and Families Invited!
Contact Christopher Baker at 135/14 for more information.
SEAdogs may GET more information by requesting FPICMAP.ARC
from 135/14.
20 Aug 1987
Start of the Fourth International FidoNet Conference, to be
held at the Radisson Mark Plaza Hotel in Alexandria, VA.
Contact Brian Hughs at 109/634 for more information. This is
FidoNet's big annual get-together, and is your chance to meet
all the people you've been talking with all this time. We're
hoping to see you there!
24 Aug 1989
Voyager 2 passes Neptune.
If you have something which you would like to see on this
calendar, please send a message to FidoNet node 1/1.
Bob Morris 141/333
Chairman, Elections and Nominations Committee
The next two pages are your Official ballot for the Election of
the IFNA Board of Directors. The following are the few rules
which must prevail in this election:
1. You must send a legible copy of this ballot to the address
listed on the ballot. It must be signed and bear your
net/node number.
2. You may vote for any one person in your region for the
position of Regional Director. This vote is to be cast in the
LEFT column of the ballot.
3. You may vote for any eleven people in any regions for the
position of Director at Large. These votes are to be cast in
the RIGHT column of the ballot.
4. Voting will continue until the end of registration at the
Conference in August. The results will be read during the
opening of the business meeting on the first day of the
conference.
5. Write-in Votes will be accepted and are requested during this
election.
FidoNews 4-17 Page 27 4 May 1987
IFNA Board Of Directors
Ballot
Regional At Large
Region 10:
Steve Jordan _________ ________
Region 11:
Ryugen Fisher _________ ________
Theodore Polczynski _________ ________
Region 12:
Region 13:
Don Daniels _________ ________
John Penberthy _________ ________
Thom Henderson _________ ________
Gee Wong _________ ________
Brian Hughes _________ ________
Region 14:
Ben Baker _________ ________
Ken Kaplan _________ ________
Brad Hicks _________ ________
Region 15:
David Dodell _________ ________
Larry Wall _________ ________
Region 16:
Bob Hartman _________ ________
Hal Duprie _________ ________
Region 17:
Rob Barker _________ ________
Randy Bush _________ ________
Bob Swift _________ ________
Region 18:
Ken Shackelford _________ ________
Wes Cowley _________ ________
FidoNews 4-17 Page 28 4 May 1987
Region 19:
Mark Grennan _________ ________
Wynn Wagner _________ ________
Name ______________________________ Net/Node ___________
Signature______________________________ Date ___________
Please complete this and mail it to:
Robert Morris
IFNA Elections Committee
210 Church Street
West Haven, Ct. 06516
or bring it with you when you come to the conference in August.
These ballots will be counted by myself since with 200 members
the charges for a CPA would be very high. Hard copies will be
made available to anyone wishing to insure that their vote was
included.
