F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.28 (12-Jul-1993)

F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.28 (12-Jul-1993)
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| A newsletter of the | |
| FidoNet BBS community | Published by: |
| _ | |
| / \ | "FidoNews" BBS |
| /|oo \ | +1-519-570-4176 1:1/23 |
| (_| /_) | |
| _`@/_ \ _ | Editors: |
| | | \ \\ | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 |
| | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 |
| |__U__| / \// | Tim Pozar 1:125/555 |
| _//|| _\ / | |
| (_/(_|(____/ | |
| (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. |
| | -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Submission address: editors 1:1/23 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet addresses: |
| |
| Sylvia -- [email protected] |
| Donald -- [email protected] |
| Tim -- [email protected] |
| Both Don & Sylvia (submission address) |
| [email protected] |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| For information, copyrights, article submissions, |
| obtaining copies and other boring but important details, |
| please refer to the end of this file. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
========================================================================
Table of Contents
========================================================================

1. Editorial..................................................... 2
2. Articles...................................................... 3
Hello Again!................................................ 3
Regarding the FidoNet nodelist preamble..................... 3
The R24 Blues............................................... 4
MAD DOG RC!................................................. 8
Policy and Privacy.......................................... 10
Confidential User Records................................... 12
A LISTING OF MACINTOSH ECHOMAIL CONFERENCES................. 13
Teen Net Should Grow Up..................................... 16
3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 16
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 2 12 Jul 1993

========================================================================
Editorial
========================================================================
I am in a bit of a rage this morning. I woke up in a good
mood, puttered arround for a few minutes, and then logged onto
the BBS. Scanned my netmail ... nothing new. Went to the
netmail area to read through the two or three Snooze articles
that I knew were there: It was empty! What the hell, though I,
and moved over to the server with its' tape drive. The tape
(twice a day automatic backup) was empty as well.

I solved that one fast enough. Three days ago I put a new
tape in the drive, and I managed to put in a write protected
tape. So much for failsafe backup methods, and so much for
those articles. If you mailed us something, and it is not in
this issue, please send it again.

Where did my netmail go? Well, it seems that someone has
decided that netmail is easier to work with than echomail. They
hooked into Usenet, and asked the software to forward 40 or 50
Usenet echos as routed mail. Since I am a hub, it went through
this system. My netmail last night, according to the logs, was
12,757 messages. The area was only (ONLY) set up to handle 5000
messages. Of course, since it is pass-through, they were all
nicely deleted by the time I got up.

That brings up a lot of issues. We pay for echos in this net,
but netmail is free. The long and the short of it is that Usenet
echos are free, but Fidonet echos are pay as you go. Something
seems skewed there. I a member of *Fidonet*.

Echomail and net mail are separate, right? Nope. They are
not. Not when sysops route echos disguised as netmail.

It seems that this is quite common, and in my opinion it is
a threat to the entire network. Most Fido software *will simply
not handle* all echo traffic in one area. Routing vast volumes
of echomail as netmail will break the system in short order. It
will also destroy most cost-sharing schemes in existance. Those
schemes are, after all, mostly based on a cost-per-echo basis.

I have nothing against inter-connectivety. In fact, I think
it the way of the future, and I quite happy to see it happening.
However, the software cannot be quite so crude as to just whack
everything into the bitstream and hope for the best. Those
technical standards are not there just for fun. Programmers
of gateways should at least know the difference between echo
mail and net mail.
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 3 12 Jul 1993

========================================================================
Articles
========================================================================
Hello Again!
by Keith Wood, BRASS CANNON BBS 1:304/8

Last week I asked if I would have to say farewell to Fido, due to
problems with my NEC/NC, and the response was literally overwhelming!
In TWO DAYS I have received dozens of reponses, ranging from various
levels of feed offers to a couple of critical messages.

One sysop said that "...you and the R24 sysops' rebellion are both in
violation of Policy 4, which prohibits such requests and actions in
no uncertain terms...maybe it's time to revise Policy 4."

Or maybe it's time for a new echo ("ALT_FEED"?) for sysops in similar
straits.

To the critics who took me to task for "trying to avoid paying for
what you are using," let me say that the problem was not cost recovery --
it was that I could not afford cost recovery, PLUS high in-state toll
fees, PLUS having to feed at 9600, PLUS having an unreliable feed. Those
problems are not, by and large, the fault of the new NC/NEC; it was just
a combination that, taken as a whole, would have put Fido echos out of
financial reach for a small rural free BBS such as BRASS CANNON.

Thanks to EVERYONE who took the time to Netmail me. Special thanks to
the sysops who offered to feed me from outside the country (South Africa
is a bit more "outside of Arizona" than I had hoped for)!

I HAVE found a feed (thanks, Brian), and will be "back in the loop" by
the time this hits the Snooze. The responses I got restored my faith
in the whole concept of Fido -- sysops helping sysops, who could have
imagined it? Thanks to the Snooze editors for spreading the word for
me, and for my users (who are, after all, the reason we're here in the
first place)!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the FidoNet nodelist preamble
by Tom Jennings
[email protected]

Observant FidoNet members noticed the rather odd change to the
NodeList legal notice a week or two back. Hopefully you've noticed
that it has been removed. (Hmm... I better check.)

Ignoring the arrogance and probable illegality of the contents, it
was done by one or very few people for who knows what ends (don't
tell me, I do not want to know -- REALLY).

Just a reminder -- the nodelist is copyright Tom Jennings, eg. me,
and I try to maintain it in the best interests of the FidoNet at
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 4 12 Jul 1993

large. Which of course I get to define, but all I can say is look
at history.

I am open to the possibility that changes might be needed to the
nodelist notices; however two things to keep in mind. One, I use
the services of an excellent computer lawyer. Nothing involving
legalities will be done without his involvement. He is not cheap
and I am poor. Two, all changes of substance, short of technical
stuff, or weekly status, nodelist flags, etc, must pass by me, with
advanced notice. This is not a change, it has worked this way since
1986, no need to get alarmed.

The FidoNet works just fine with "no one in charge" (sic) and to
those who claim it isn't do not understand how large social
orgnizations work -- they do not run like military groups or prisons
-- they are chaotic and undergo *constant* change and friction.
(Anyone around for more than a few years knows that "the sky is
falling!" has been sounded more than a few times.)

FidoNet working means: the nodelist has incredible accuracy; netmail
from point A to point B is delivered reliably, new people can join
the network without restriction, no person or group can control
the content of a persons communications nor prevent any person from
communicating with any other FidoNet member, everyone carries their
own weight, technologies and social systems continue to grow and
"improve."

Anyone who tells you your ability to communicate with FidoNet
depends on the good will or actions or rulesheet of another is a
conniving shit up to no good. Plain enough?!

PS: the idea that people with 0's in their FidoNet address are
somehow different from everyone else is nonsense. What they have
is added work, not "power". And for anyone who believes in that
they have control over how they run their systems: THE /0'S DO
NOT RUN FIDONET. NO ONE PERSON OR GROUP IS IN CHARGE.

Most of the /0's themselves are quite reasonable, and realize this
themselves. It's nothing new.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The R24 Blues

by Juergen Hermann (war correspondent),
NL.169 2:241/7554 (49-721-826310, V.32bis),
Internet [email protected]

+++ news flash +++ news flash +++ news flash +++ news flash +++
FidoNet lost 500 nodes - first major disruption of so-far constant
growth - more losses to come - keep your lines open for the next HUGE
nodediff - a great step towards enforcing THE POLICY
+++ news flash +++ news flash +++ news flash +++ news flash +++

In the following article, we'll first see some comments on articles
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 5 12 Jul 1993

from the last two issues, up-to-date information from the trenches of
the on-going bigger-than-ever Fight-O-Net war, and, last but not least,
comments on the take-over and its (non-)justification by THE POLICY.
Stay tuned...

First, I like to thank John R. Pickens for his wonderful article (I
simply love that "stray bit of tissue" metaphor). What's life without
the occasional laughter, especially in troubled times like this. John,
NOW you know what other regions are like, and you also know you're a
lucky guy. A lazy RC is a (mostly) harmless RC. The hyper-active ones
are those we have to keep an eye on.

Pablo, I don't have to say much about your article. You always were,
since the beginnings of WorldPol, a tiny little voice of reason and
democracy in the large technocratic realms of FidoNet. Your comment
comes pretty close to the feelings of most "anti-putsch" sysops in
Germany.

Regarding the "Current Policy Interpretation" topic, well, some German
sysops claimed they'll take the *Cs to court, one guy wrote his lawyer
said that "the odds of winning are not so bad". IANAL, but their
arguments sounded strange enough to give them a chance at court. :->

I don't think that law suits are a good idea (at this time or at all),
but at least under German law they have a right to their own opinion
and also a right to possibly make a fool of themselves. The funny thing
is that this threat about threats appeared in the *Z1* list, even
funnier is that all the R24 changes made it to Z1 within a few days,
and the funniest thing of all are the words "Current Policy
Interpretation" themselves, if you think real hard about it (for the
people among us that aren't so gifted by nature - I'm heading for the
"current(!) interpretation" combo of words).

Finally to Jeremy Dailey, be assured that this madness will continue.
THE POLICY and its high priests will see to it. BTW, mail routing *has
been* successful in R24, and in the alternative R24, it was one of the
first things that was re-established. You can't have low-noise echos
otherwise, can you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"In nature, there are neither rewards nor
punishments - there are Consequences." (R.G. Ingersoll, 1833-1899)

Now to the news (as of 06-Jul-1993): the alternative region is up and
running, more alive than ever, the first chaotic days are over. Chaos
in the official R24 segment shows a little more resistance, double
entries (i.e. the very same system listed in different nets), two HUBs
in Koeln (Cologne) with <20 nodes each and five Cologne nodes listed
under the Essen HUB, ... you name it. All that in a so-called regional
net, and of course that's cost-efficient, because THE POLICY and its
high priests can't be wrong.

Traffic in the echos is not what it was, most people aren't very eager
to write msgs if they have to fear that those msgs are routed into a
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 6 12 Jul 1993

black hole. It's improving, though, some conferences are even "gated"
between R24.169 and R24.183. The coordination echo R24-COORD sees a
flood of msgs, freshly connected nodes saying hello, various calls for
votes (the most important being the impeachment of the R24C),
discussions about the future (how to build POLICY-conformant regional
nets in an orderly fashion and whether we want to keep at least one
sympathy net), and of course a good part of gibberish that's an
integral part of every FidoNet echo.

Considering snippets from "ENET.SYSOP" (European sysop echo), Ron
Dwight (the Z2C) seems pretty uninformed about the actions of the
so-called GCC ("German Complaint Council", and don't search for it in
THE POLICY, you won't find that institution) and their future plans.
His arguments consist mainly of rhetorical perls like "HOGWASH",
"that's not the truth", "you're not informed" and the like. He even
claimed that such a thing as a GCC doesn't exist (have you read the
nodelist lately, Ron?). Well, NODEDIFF.183 has introduced a NCC (see
2:245/3, "Network Complaint Crusher"?), maybe they've seen to many Star
Trek episodes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It works for me
It's you and me babe - against the world
All night long
It works for me
Let's cross the bridge" (Kate Bush, from "Burning Bridge")

Now to my comments and observations:

- the new nets are MONSTERS as they were planned, and even with 500
nodes missing they're awfully big. Ooops, I must exclude Bavaria,
since that net lost 270 nodes and now has about 80 nodes (that's
75% for those which slept during math lessons). I'm eager to get
the next ND, anyone taking bets on the biggest loser of ND.190? On
the highest percentage? On the continuing existance of something
which is worth to be called a FidoNet region?

Apropos losses, which part of THE POLICY covers complaints against
*Cs that refuse to delete your nodelist entry? Any help in finding
it is appreciated...

- the new nets are built on the basis of the German states, which are
not "an area of convenient telephone calling". Fact is, in each and
every of this new nets there are many nodes with LD connections to
their host. Fact is, Net 246 has THREE echomail servers, so why not
THREE nets. If you read section 8 and 8.3 of THE POLICY, you know
why.

- if you ask yourself why everyone is calling the take-over a
"putsch", this is what the GCC members called their action
themselves ("putsch from the top", which is pretty redundant).

- the "rebellion from the bottom" consists of at least 30% (500/1720)
of the former R24, with more nodes that weren't removed by
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 7 12 Jul 1993

NODEDIFF.183 against their expressed wishes. I call that a large
minority, if not a majority; so much for statements like "a few
rebels making trouble".

- the whole "plan" was made up by 15 people imposing their point of
view on 1700+ German sysops.

- having a local routing with local echos, the Karlsruhe area tried
to found a new net two weeks before the big bang, a net defined by
the local telecom cost structure (i.e. a true geographical net).
The request was declined for reasons we didn't understand at that
time.

- the net I would've been a member of had an own net policy that was
presented together with the new node number. "Absurd" is a nice
description for that pile of crap, they force you to get echomail
only from your HUB (no private links), and echos you get from your
HUB you have to pay for (the net result is forced contribution).
Any points you have are mandatorily registered, gateways are
"verboten".

You have to be online from midnight till six o'clock, ZMH-only
nodes have no right to be part of FidoNet, right? The official
language in Net 246 isn't English any more; I understand that, most
German *Cs have only a basic understanding of English (if they
speak it at all), which sheds a light on their interpretation of
THE POLICY.

- in the anouncement planned for Wednesday before ND.176, the R24C
claimed that all *Cs would resign after "an adequate time" and hold
public elections. The new NC of Net 246 denied having such plans on
the phone (there were witnesses overhearing the conversation, the
NC was informed of that fact).

- lunatics from both sides resolve to personal threats on the phone,
mail bombs and viruses are uploaded to various systems (f.x. dieter
soltau's, ex-Z2EC, ex-2:2/254), echos are cluttered with personal
insults (more than before). GREAT! Fight-O-Net at its best!

- FidoNews "is an important medium by which FidoNet sysops
communicate with each other". Did YOU see any
anouncement/comment/explanation by the Godfathers of the new R24
here. Did I miss something? Did THEY miss something?

- Henk Wevers, coming back from holiday, told us how delighted he was
about the "wholly internal" R24 affair: "Thanks, your actions
costed me $$$ that could be used for a lot better purposes than
paying the PTT for a lot of connections with password errors. I was
on the losing side here, with absolutely no chance to prepare or
react."

There'd be much more to say, but I think you got the general
impression.

Happy and unoppressed communications, Juergen
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 8 12 Jul 1993

MAD DOG RC!

Rick Haburne (NC3655) 1:3655/20.0
DERANGED MAD DOG RC RUNS AMOK!!

NCs and SysOps are under siege in Region 18 by a power-wielding and
control-crazed RC! Christopher Baker quells dissenters by removing
NCs and threatening to disband Nets!

Now, the rest of the story.....

Not long ago, Chris Baker issued a ruling that nodelist entries were
not the domain of NCs and that there was no limitation on the length
of nodelist entries nor their content. Even after dozens of NCs told
him of the problems that such a ruling would cause, Chris Baker
ignored the learned advice of the NCs throughout the Region and
responded with only "like it or resign". He did not care that
automated nodelist producing software and mailers would be "broken" by
unlimited line lengths in the nodelist and that his edict of "anything
goes" in BBS name fields would assuredly bring about entries that
would press the bounds of decency by allowing even profanity to be
included in nodelist entries. His only concern was that he had made
an "official" ruling (allegedly with the blessing of the ZC - Bob
Satti) and that his ruling would be abided by unquestionably by every
NC in the Region and that anyone meeting this edict with opposition
would be asked to resign or be removed.

Knowing that Chris was blinded by his power of his position as RC, I
felt that maybe even he would be swayed by a real-time demonstration
of the effects of his new ruling. I submitted a nodelist segment
update with a node listing exceeding 200 characters. Chris soon
discovered that he was dead wrong on his nodelist entry length ruling
as the software that he uses to maintain the Region's nodelist
segments (Ben Baker's MAKENL), flat-out choked on the extended
nodelist entry. He immediately issued a new ruling. That being that
nodelist entries would be limited by MAKENL's limitation of 157
characters per line. At the same time, he demands that I resubmit my
nodelist segment update so that it is compliant with the new 157
character ruling or he would remove me as NC (making sure that he CC'd
this demand to ZC Bob Satti)! Immediately after reading the message
that this threat came in with, I resubmitted my entry. The entry fell
far below the new 157 character limitation.

His demand of me was ok in itself as I did not want to do anything
that would provide him with justification for my removal. I felt that
I had proven one of the points that I and numerous NCs had made at the
beginning of all this. That being that he could not seriously expect
to allow unlimited nodelist entries and not have someone send one
through and that many software processors would be "broken" if such a
ruling was allowed. One point made and one to go.

My updated (and now compliant) nodelist entry was submitted. It was
now time to show him how ridiculous his "anything goes" ruling as far
as BBS name field nodelist entries. He was asked that if a NC
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 9 12 Jul 1993

received an entry that contained ",99,The_Penis_BBS,....", would the
NC be obligated under his new ruling to allow the request to go
through. His response was "there is no limitation on the content of a
nodelist entry" and that if a NC refused to allow such an entry, the
NC would be open for a policy complaint that Chris would uphold.
Again, doing only what the RC had mandated I do, I submitted a
nodelist entry thusly:

"20,THE_FUCK_YOU_CHRIS!_BSS_:Home_Of_Bytes_&_Pc's_Rbbs,....."

Imagine my surprise when I heard nothing from him on this. I thought
that he would indeed back his ruling on this as he had said he would.
Chris called my BBS direct, made numerous screen captures and sent
them to the ZC Bob Satti. Still, I was not contacted by him
concerning my new nodelist entry. Imagine my continued surprise when
he finally did contact me and no mention of my last entry was made.
Nothing was said about it's compliancy or it's content. The only
thing he had to say to me that he was removing me as NC of Net 3655.
Stating that I had failed to carry out my duties as NC, he was
removing me and that my Net had until the 7th of July to inform him of
a replacement.

I asked him in what manner had I failed to carry out my duties as NC
when I have complied with every demand that he had ever made of me
since I became NC, that I submitted nodelist segment updates when our
Net's nodelist entry required changing in a timely manner and that per
his own policy, my system polls his on a weekly basis. I asked him
what section of Policy did I violate to justify his removal of me.
After he told me that Policy did not matter and that I only need
concern myself with what is told "from RC to NC", I continued to press
him for his "official" reason. He eventually quoted P4 on
"excessively annoying" behavior. Ignoring his own past ruling that
excessively annoying was based on purely technical reasons, this is
what he was justifying my removal on.

Keep in mind that from the first communication with me, Chris had CC'd
every message to the ZC (as was I). I had even netmailed Bob Satti
directly, asking him to intervene in this matter. To date, I have yet
to receive a return message from Bob Satti. I can only assume that in
his silence, he is in agreement with Chris Baker on this issue.

What does all this mean? It means that any RC has the blessing of the
ZC to do as he/she wishes regardless of the opinions of the NCs and
end nodes in their Regions. It means that any RC has the blessing to
remove anyone in their Region without real justification. It means
that any RC can hand down edicts at any time and can change them just
as easily when it suits them. To most, this is not news. It is
something that has been pointed out time and time again. Only now is
it significant as a case has finally come to light that proves what
has been said all along. That being that an RC can do whatever he
wishes whenever he wishes and to whomever he wishes and the upper *C
will support him to the hilt. Policy is something that they are able
to twist and "interpret" in any manner they desire in order to
substantiate their actions. Who will be next? If you openly disagree
with your RC, it could be you.
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 10 12 Jul 1993

Policy and Privacy
By De Skud uh 1:MyNet/Mynode Aka xxx/0

De followin' info'mashun be 100% facshunal. De dojiggers
howeva' gots' been changed t'hang de innocent and uh course
protect da damn guilty. Slap mah fro! Dese 3 messages gots'
been little mo'e dan fo'matted and censo'ed t'make everyone
anonymous. Dese here messages gots' been JIBEd, fo' yo'
sucka'al entertainment...

(19) Fri 2 Jul 93 23:36 Sent, dig dis: Fri 2 Jul 23:36
By, dig dis: De Skud NC
To, dig dis: Despuh'te node (1:yyy/somenode)
Re, dig dis: So'ry
St, dig dis: Pvt Crash Local Sent
-----------------------------------------------------------
@PID: FM 2.02

Just so's ya' know, ah' routed some copy uh dis drough yo' NC.
Figured as much some busybody as he is, he diserved it. <g>

As ya' received some copy uh de message statin' dat I
would check wid Our RC God prio' t'makin' de number
puh'menent, ah' finally gots some hold uh him. 'S coo',
bro. I'm so'ry t'say dat he be right dat based on
Geographic boundaries ya' cannot join dis net, and gots'ta
be removin' yo' node number next week. ah' would also likes
t'point out dat aldough yo' NC may be some control freak who
enjoys bein' "annoyin'", de results uh any policy complaint
gots'ta mo'e dan likesly be returned in his favo' on dis
issue, based on "geographic boundaries". De fact dat yo' NC
gots'ta no oda' life oder dan t'f*** wid oda' sucka's's
mail, and butt in whenever de h*** he f****** sheeit pleases
gots'ta no bearin' on dis decision. 'S coo', bro.

Skud.
Net xxx NC.

And in advance t'yo' NC who's probably already eyeball dis
message. What it is, Mama!

'Sup, dude...
@Via MsgTrack 1:MyNet/Mynode, Sat Jul 03 1993 at 06:43 UTC

-----------------------------------------------------------
(26) Fri 2 Jul 93 15:58 Rcvd, dig dis: Sun 4 Jul 8:12
By, dig dis: Busybody NC (1:yyy/0)
To, dig dis: De Skud NC
Re, dig dis: So'ry
St, dig dis: Pvt Crash Rcvd
-----------------------------------------------------------
In some msg on <Jul 03 00:36>, De Skud uh 1:MyNet/Mynode@Fidonet
scribbles, dig dis:

FidoNews 10-28 Page: 11 12 Jul 1993

TS> As ya' received some copy uh de message statin' dat I
TS> would check wid Our RC God prio' t'makin' de numba'
TS> puh'menent, ah' finally gots some hold uh him. 'S coo',
TS> bro. I'm so'ry t'say dat he be right dat based on
TS> Geographic boundaries ya' kinnot join dis net, and
TS> gots'ta be removin' yo' node numba' next week. ah'
TS> would also likes t'point out dat aldough yo' NC may be
TS> some control freak who enjoys bein' "annoyin'", de
TS> results uh any policy complaint gots'ta mo'e dan likesly
TS> be returned in his favo' on dis issue, based on
TS> "geographic boundaries". De fact dat yo' NC gots'ta no
TS> oda' life oda' dan t'f*** wid oda' sucka's's mail, and
TS> butt in wheneva' de h*** he f****** sheeit pleases
TS> gots'ta no bearin' on dis decision. 'S coo', bro.

TS> Skud.
TS> Net xxx NC.

TS> And in advance t'yo' NC who's probably already
TS> eyeball dis message. What it is, Mama!

TS> 'Sup, dude...

Sheeit, based downon de RC's opinion, ah' believe dat in
fact dere be a bearin' here. What it is, Mama! Continued
encroachment into anoder area dan de area net xxx be
sdownposed t'serve undercuts our abilities t'offa' echomail
at some reasonable cost. Dis becomes some self-puh'petuatin'
cycle. What it is, Mama! As echomail becomes mo'e and mo'e
'espensive t'handle on de basis uh a dwindlin' numba' of
nodes, mo'e and mo'e sucka's would choose t'go wid de
netwo'k dat offered da damn best "deal". While I sucka'ally
aint in favo' uh strict geographic 'slusivety, I recon' net
xxx be gettin' out uh hand in its size and reach. It may
sheeit be da damn case dat da damn ova' 300-mile reach of
net xxx be havin' some chillin' effect on de creashun of new
netwo'ks.

Dis wuz whut ah' dought wuz at da damn heart uh a compromise
on echo cost sharin'. I'm distressed t'see ya' reso't to
dojigger-callin'. ah' aint called ya' o' anyone in yo'
netwo'k dojiggers, eida' in public o' in private. What it
is, Mama! ah' duzn't see da damn need fo' ya' t'lowa' dis
t'dis level. ah' aint speculatin' on yo' motives o' whut
radical "freak" ya' may be, eider. Ah be baaad...

In de future, ya' may direct-route mail ya' wish t'be
private. What it is, Mama! It be de only security ya' gots'
in dis regard. If ya' wish t'route mail drough dis system as
some routin' convenience, ya' kin assume it gots'ta be
inspected as be all mail goin' drough dis system. 'S coo',
bro. Dis system duz not puh'mit encrypted mail.

@Via MsgTrack 1:MyNet/Mynode, Sun Jul 04 1993 at 02:27 UTC

FidoNews 10-28 Page: 12 12 Jul 1993

-----------------------------------------------------------
(30) Sun 4 Jul 93 15:38 Sent, dig dis: Sun 4 Jul 15:38
By, dig dis: De Skud NC
To, dig dis: Busybody NC (1:yyy/0)
Re, dig dis: Privacy and policy
St, dig dis: Pvt Crash Local Sent
-----------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:MyNet/Mynode@Fidonet 5c8f9558
@PID: FM 2.02

cc, dig dis: Despuh'te Node, Local In-de-middle NEC

2.1.6.1 No Disclosho' nuff uh in-transit mail

Disclosin' o' in any way usin' info'mashun contained in
private netmail traffic not addressed t'ya' o' written by
ya' be considered annoyin' behavio', unless de traffic
gots'ta been released by de audo' o' de recipient as some
part uh a fo'mal policy complaint. Dis duz not apply
t'echomail which be by definishun some broadcast medium, and
where private mail be often used t'keep some sysop-only area
restricted.

@Via MsgTrack 1:MYnet/MyNode, Sun Jul 04 1993 at 22:46 UTC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Confidential User Records

The sysop need for confidential user information

Written by: Derek M-K Wong I
FidoNet (1:221/281.0)
UseNet ([email protected])

In the previous FidoNews, there was an article entitled BBS Rape
about releasing confidential information to a person who you have never
met. (It would appear that the Caller ID controversy is starting all
over again).

As a user, I can understand the need for anonymity, as in this
case, someone was killed after the so-called "confidential" information
was released. However, the majority of BBS's out there are a lot more
secure than the one used as an example. I know that I don't feel
entirely secure about telling a complete stranger my home address,
telephone number, etc, but as a sysop, I understand why some systems
demand this information. For example, if there was a user who kept
crashing your BBS, wouldn't you like to have his/her information so
that you can warn other sysops of the problem? Also, back to the
Caller ID controversy, I had a caller on my BBS who claimed that he was
an SPA freelancer and was going to shut down my Shareware/PD BBS.
Granted, there are sysops out there who use such information and
devices for other means, but in all cases, there is always a good use,
and a bad use. However, I am presently looking into installing the
Caller ID feature on my BBS line to eliminate software pirates,
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 13 12 Jul 1993

hackers, and multiple-account users. Depending on the sysop, the
amount of private information requested in the New User questionnaire
varies drastically. Almost all BBS's ask for Name, Address, Zip Code,
City, Province, and Telephone number, but recently, I was on a system
which requested Occupation, Ethnic Background, Marital Status,
Driver's License #, and many other things. Now, I believe that phone
number and mailing address are required, but that's it. I don't
understand the need for "Ethnic Background" at all. On my system
I ask only for mailing address, telephone #, and birthdate (as I
restrict some message areas to over-16 and over-18's). I can
justify the need for the information as well. I ask for the phone #
so I can voice-validate all new users. I ask for mailing address
in order to establish whether or not the user is eligible for
long-distance access, and I have already stated why I ask for
birthdate. To wrap up, I just wanted to express my views on the
New user questionnaire after reading the article in the last edition
of FidoNews. Sometimes, people don't understand that it is a
priviledge to be on a BBS, not a right. After all, the sysop has sunk
much cash, and much time into his/her system, and the least the users
can do is tell us truthfully who they are, and where they live.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A LISTING OF MACINTOSH ECHOMAIL CONFERENCES

Ralph Merritt
SysOp, The MACnetic BBS
(908)469-4603
Fidonet 1:2605/611
FamilyNet 8:72/27

The following is a listing of known Macintosh-oriented echomail
conferences. This is certainly not a comprehensive listing, but
it should give an idea of "what's out there". It is presented
as an information sharing experience; I have limited the list
to those echos distributed on a somewhat national/international
basis (MUG-specific, beta-test and restricted distribution echos
have been excluded). If you have any comments, please contact
me at 1:2605/611 aka 8:72/27 (FamilyNet).

My BBS, The MACnetic BBS, has been operating as an informal mail
hub for many of the "non-backbone" areas for a number of years.
There are many additional systems that link to MACnetic and also
hub these non-backbone echos; some major sites are listed below:

Sysop State Address BBS Phone # Supports
-------------- ------ ---------- ------------- -------------
Ralph Merritt NJ 1:2605/611 (908)469-4603 14.4 H14/V32b
Louis Oaken FL 1:135/292 (305)238-2880 16.8 H16/V32b
Raul Almquist MN 1:282/105 (612)546-2490 14.4 HST/V32b
Richard Bollar CA 1:125/110 (415)589-5411 14.4 H14/V32b

[NOTE: This distribution channel applies only to the NON-BACKBONE
areas listed below. Backbone echos are subject to local policies]
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 14 12 Jul 1993

While several conferences are non-backbone by moderator choice (for
various reasons, one being a desire freely distribute the echo as
needed, vs. complying with sometimes restrictive regional echomail
policies), this informal distribution network has been helpful in
placing new mac echos on the "official" Fidonet echomail backbone.

Many of these echos are currently distributed on portions of the
Fidonet backbone on an informal basis. Check with your network
echomail coordinator (NEC) for availability. If you cannot find a
link, please contact one of the sysops above, and we can either
provide a link or refer you to a closer node.

The MACnetic BBS is located in Bridgewater, New Jersey, on Fidonet
node 1:2605/611 aka FamilyNet 8:72/27, (908)469-4603. The system
runs Front Door, Remote Access and GEcho, with a US Robotics 14.4
HST w/V32b & V42b modem. The MACnetic BBS supports users, points
and Fidonet sysops who have an interest in Macintosh echos/files
(and recently, Windows 3.1/NT and OS/2).

-----------------------------------------
Macintosh - Echos on the Fidonet Backbone
-----------------------------------------

ECHOMAC National General Macintosh Conference
HERMES_SYSOPS Hermes BBS Support Conference
MAC4SALE Macintosh Wanted/For-Sale Conference
MACCOMM Macintosh Communications
*MACDEV Macintosh Developers
MACFSALE Macintosh For Sale Echo
MACHW Macintosh Hardware Topics
*MACHYPE Macintosh Hypercard-related Topics
MACSW Macintosh Software Topics
MACSYSOP Macintosh Sysop-only Conference
*MACWOOF MacWoof Support Conference
MAC_GAMES Macintosh Games and Entertainment
MAC_TELEFINDER Telefinder BBS Support Conference
MANSION Software Design Support Conference
SYSTEM7 System 7.X Discussion Echo

[A '*' indicates the echo is currently listed in the FIDONET.NO file,
as there is no EchoList entry for the conference].

---------------------------------------------
Macintosh - Echos Not on the Fidonet Backbone
---------------------------------------------

ALTERMAC AlterMac General Mac-oriented Echo
BBB BMUG Guide to Bulletin Boards & Beyond
CPOINT COUNTERpoint Support Echo
FIRSTCLASS FirstClass BBS Support Echo
MAC_ADS Macintosh Advertisements/For Sale Echo
MAC_HELP Macintosh Help for Beginners
MAC_SCIENCE Macintosh Scientific Applications
MACDTP Macintosh Desktop Publishing
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 15 12 Jul 1993

MACFILES Macintosh Files for FREQ (No Points)
MACFREQS Macintosh Files for FREQ (Points Allowed)
MACNOV Macintosh Novice Programming
MACPB Macintosh PowerBook Echo
MACUK Macintosh United Kingdom-U.S. Conference
MACVIRUS Macintosh Virus Prevention
MSDNSYSOP Macintosh Software Distribution Network
MUGADMIN Macintosh User Group Administration
NOVALINK Novalink BBS Support Conference
PCMAC PC-to-Mac Connectivity Echo
PUBADD Public Address BBS Support Echo
RRH Second Sight BBS Support Echo
SIMCITY Discussions of the SimCity Game
TABBY Tabby (Macintosh Mailer) Support Echo
TBBSMAC TBBS Conference for Mac Sysops
WWIVMAC World War IV BBS Support Echo

[Some of the above echos have very low traffic volume]

-----------------------------
Macintosh - Usenet NewsGroups
-----------------------------

COMP.SYS.MAC.ADVOCACY Macintosh Advocacy
COMP.SYS.MAC.ANNOUNCE Macintosh Product Annoucements
COMP.SYS.MAC.APPS Macintosh Applications
COMP.SYS.MAC.COMM Macintosh Communications
COMP.SYS.MAC.DATABASES Macintosh Databases
COMP.SYS.MAC.DIGEST Macintosh Digest
COMP.SYS.MAC.GAMES Macintosh Gaming
COMP.SYS.MAC.HARDWARE Macintosh Hardware
COMP.SYS.MAC.HYPERCARD Macintosh Hypercard
COMP.SYS.MAC.MISC Macintosh Miscellaneous
COMP.SYS.MAC.OOP.MACAPP3 Macintosh MacApp Programming
COMP.SYS.MAC.OOP.MISC Macintosh Object-Oriented Programming
COMP.SYS.MAC.PROGRAMMER Macintosh Programming
COMP.SYS.MAC.SYSTEM Macintosh System Software
COMP.SYS.MAC.WANTED Macintosh Want Ads/For Sale
COMP.BINARIES.MAC Macintosh Files in BinHex Format
COMP.LANG.LISP.MCL Macintosh LISP Programming
COMP.PROTOCOLS.APPLETALK Macintosh AppleTalk
COMP.SOURCES.MAC Macintosh Source Code
COMP.UNIX.AUX Macintosh Unix

[Local naming conventions may apply to the Usenet conferences)
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 16 12 Jul 1993

Teen Net Should Grow Up

A response to the founding of "Teen Net"
by Billy Cash, 1:226/70.0

I had to stop to laugh when I read this article in FidoNews 10-27.

Ever get mad at the world of FidoNet today, and say 'if I were any
older, they wouldn't treat me this way'... Well If you are, join Teen
Net, the Network exclusivly for teens.

In this net we'll discuss the everyday life of teenagers, school,
love, problems, etc.

Let's face it, probably at least 35% of FidoNet is made up of teens,
like myself. And, I would feel more at home, if FidoNet weren't so
grown up. Not to flame FidoNet, it's Great, but some teens don't
want to look stupid to the rest of the world.

Teen Net one rule, don't be annoying. By this I mean: Don't make fun
of people just because it's different, Don't close your mind, and be
open to other ideas (Whoa!)

In an article almost completely devoid of grammar, the author Matt
Riedel says teenagers are treated differently just because of their
ages. Rubbish! Do the spelling errors, capitalization mistakes and
missing verbs mean anything? And what's wrong with being "grown up?"
I'd hate to be in this network. (Imagine City Council run by a bunch of
pimply high school kids!)

I have nothing against other networks. They deserve to exist and usually
are good supplements to FidoNet itself. But FidoNet should be an
example to teens. Our quasi-democratic style of "government" and
instant communication are good tools to learn about how adult society
work. Kids need to see responsible adults acting responsibly -- and
whining about everybody else acting too much like adults won't help
them. I wonder why Matt Riedel bothers with this hobby at all.

Billy Cash, 1:226/70.0
Age 15

----------------------------------------------------------------------

========================================================================
Fidonews Information
========================================================================

------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ----------------

Editors: Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, Tim Pozar
Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello,
Tom Jennings

FidoNews 10-28 Page: 17 12 Jul 1993

IMPORTANT NOTE: The FidoNet address of the FidoNews BBS has been
changed!!! Please make a note of this.

"FidoNews" BBS
FidoNet 1:1/23
BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS)
Internet addresses:
Don & Sylvia (submission address)
[email protected]

Sylvia -- [email protected]
Donald -- [email protected]
Tim -- [email protected]

(Postal Service mailing address) (have extreme patience)
FidoNews
172 Duke St. E.
Kitchener, Ontario
Canada
N2H 1A7

Published weekly by and for the members of the FidoNet international
amateur electronic mail system. It is a compilation of individual
articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The
contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the
rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those
of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews.

Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
copyright 1993 Sylvia Maxwell. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or
distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in
other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or FidoNews
(we're easy).

OBTAINING COPIES: The-most-recent-issue-ONLY of FidoNews in electronic
form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or
Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet.
PRINTED COPIES may be obtained from Fido Software for $10.00US each
PostPaid First Class within North America, or $13.00US elsewhere,
mailed Air Mail. (US funds drawn upon a US bank only.)

BACK ISSUES: Available from FidoNet nodes 1:102/138, 1:216/21,
1:125/1212, (and probably others), via filerequest or download
(consult a recent nodelist for phone numbers).

A very nice index to the Tables of Contents to all FidoNews volumes
can be filerequested from 1:396/1 or 1:216/21. The name(s) to request
are FNEWSxTC.ZIP, where 'x' is the volume number; 1=1984, 2=1985...
through 8=1991.

INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.ieee.org, in
directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. If you have questions regarding
FidoNet, please direct them to [email protected], not the
FidoNews BBS. (Be kind and patient; David Deitch is generously
FidoNews 10-28 Page: 18 12 Jul 1993

volunteering to handle FidoNet/Internet questions.)

SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file
ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable
from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it.

"Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission.

Asked what he thought of Western civilization,
M.K. Gandhi said, "I think it would be an excellent idea".
-- END
----------------------------------------------------------------------