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#Post#: 33576--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: TrevorL Date: April 8, 2023, 3:20 pm
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Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1537.msg33573#msg33573 date=1680981018]For me, Jesus
is the Word made flesh. God speaks creation into existence by
His Word, Son of God. The Son proceeds from the Father as the
Church understands.[/quote]I believe that the One God, Yahweh,
God the Father is the Creator Psalm 8:1-3, Matthew 11:20-25 and
He spoke the Creation into existence by the words of his mouth
Psalm 33:6-9.
[quote]The fourth kingdom, the determined 70 weeks for Judah and
Jerusalem, to make atonement for sin, the resurrection, the
daily sacrifice taken away, the number of days patiently waited,
second coming, etc..
No confusion, Trevor. That was 490 years after Daniel's vision.
Done. A long time off from Daniel's day, not something "at
hand".
We've established that 490 years plus are many days from
Daniel's day. In other words, Jesus' incarnation wasn't in Dan's
day. Neither was the 4th kingdom. His visions of the time of the
end were sealed by God because they were for a distant
future.[/quote]You seem to be transferring the "sealing" of
Daniel 12 back onto Daniel 9, but the vision of Daniel 9 was so
that Daniel could understand, refer Daniel 9:14. There seems to
be a balance between what was hidden to Daniel and what was
revealed or understood by him at the time, if only in prophetic
terms. I consider that as each event prophesied occurred, and
even before it occurred, whatever was hidden would become clear.
The sealing was not absolute, it was only obscure. Compare the
prediction of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem from Micah 5:1-2
and the actual way it transpired. You could say it was sealed,
but the Pharisees and Sadducees understood it was to be in
Bethlehem and trembled when the Wise Men visited who most
probably understood Daniel's 490 days rather than the lining up
of some planets.
[quote]I seems to me that you're evading my question. Here it is
again. If the end time visions were sealed because they were a
long time away from Dan's day, would visions that were inspired
by God Who said they were "at hand" be left unsealed?
[/quote]But now you are quoting from Revelation 1:1-3 and
Revelation 22:10 and I do not know what you are claiming. I do
not accept the Preterist view that this proves that all of the
Book of Revelation had to happen surrounding AD 70. I believe
that John received the Apocalypse in AD 96 and the First Seal
started to happen in that year and continued from AD 96-183, and
at the end of that Seal the Second Seal started to occur when
the time of peace was shattered by much bloodshed especially
centred in Rome and the Second Seal period was from AD 183-211.
It is interesting that the very concept of "Seals" and the drama
of unsealing these seals is played out in Revelation 5.
Nevertheless each seal is opened successively, not all at once.
[quote]This should be a very easy answer to give for you with
evidence. Especially since you've studied so much.[/quote]But
you join a number of concepts together and do not consider each
in their respective contexts to establish what is being stated
in each context. Thus the First Seal was very much at hand and
John would instruct his associates to preach the Gospel in this
period of relative peace, and the Gospel was spread very much in
that period as witnessed by the Letters between Trajan and
Pliny.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33577--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: paralambano Date: April 8, 2023, 3:27 pm
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Trevor - ^
You still evade.
John is told not to seal his Apocalypse, a book you use to
discuss the end time. Why was he told to leave it unsealed?
Daniel is told to seal his prophecies this way because in your
words they were to be fulfilled in the distant future, in the
extreme, over two millennia and at the least, 490 years.
Why was John told to leave his book unsealed?
You have a conundrum. Especially with what is being said at its
beginning.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33579--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: TrevorL Date: April 8, 2023, 3:56 pm
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Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1537.msg33577#msg33577 date=1680985659] You still
evade.
John is told not to seal his Apocalypse, a book you use to
discuss the end time. Why was he told to leave it unsealed?
Daniel is told to seal his prophecies this way because in your
words they were to be fulfilled in the distant future, in the
extreme, over two millennia and at the least, 490 years.
Why was John told to leave his book unsealed?
You have a conundrum. Especially with what is being said at its
beginning.[/quote]I have tried to explain the difference between
the events of Daniel 12 and the opening of the First Seal. I may
have modified my previous post after you answered, but my answer
very much confirms the concept of the Continuous Historic view
of the Book of Revelation, compared to some of the obscure
detail revealed in Daniel 12, for example the 1260, 1290 and
1335 days of Daniel 12. What are the exact event or events for
the start of these three time periods, and what occurred or will
occur at their individual completion. What is the specific
Abomination of Desolation mentioned in Daniel 12:11? Part of the
answer to this was given in his address two Sundays ago, by one
of my meetings former members who now lives in Queensland and
sent me a link to his talk. All of this would be obscure to
Daniel in his time and we may not have a proper understanding of
these things, but I am comforted by what I have learnt so far. I
will not share this detail with you as we do not have much
agreement on the basics. But Daniel does say that at the time of
the end, our present time period Daniel 11:40, Revelation
16:12-16, the wise shall understand Daniel 12, and as I said, we
may not be thus blessed. Concerning trying to understand the
Books of Daniel and Revelation, we have been progressing through
a study of the Book of Revelation in our Senior Sunday School
Class over a number of years led by one of our Senior
Expositors, and last Sunday we considered Revelation 16:12-14
and we are up to Revelation 16:15, the return of Jesus to gather
the faithful and intervene in the Battle of Armageddon.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33581--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: paralambano Date: April 8, 2023, 8:46 pm
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Trevor - ^
You have John's book extending millennia when his book says
"things which shortly must come to pass", meaning the visions
John saw. Not "many days" or a "distant future" as you have of
Daniel's minimum 490 years to Jesus for incarnation when
scripture later culminates in the parousia. Not extended for
millennia or else they would be sealed for John's readers as
Daniel's were. You have God contradicting Himself by your
eschatology.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew
unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he
sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of
Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of
this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
The "readeth" there is liturgical, a Church gathering hearing
the Word.
Not you, not me, those reading it in John's day. If you know
anything about exegesis, context and audience matters. This book
wasn't written primarily for you or me. We can look back on it
to see how our blessed hope was accomplished. Futurists are
still waiting for it sadly. I have the assurance of prophecy
fulfilled. Futurists can agonize.
The bookend in 22:
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of
this book: for the time is at hand.
Not in a distant future of Trevor's day. You and I aren't that
special, Trevor.
You've totally messed up your eschatology by not seeing the
difference between Daniel's sealed and John's unsealed. Daniel's
sealed is meant for the distant future 490 plus and John's
unsealed for the things prophesied for his day. The "must
shortly come to pass". Not these visions sealed and those
unsealed. All unsealed. Daniel fulfilled in John's day by John's
"things (prophecies) which must shortly come to pass". You can't
have the Second Coming without the first by incarnation. Then
comes Daniel's fulfillment in John's day by John's visions for
his day, not millennia into ours which can in no way be
construed to be shortly, soon, at hand. Your God apparently
doesn't know how to convey time to His creation if you believe
what Dan and John wrote is for us today. Failure after failure
assuredly follows by prognosticators. Hundreds of failed dates.
What a shambles for Christianity. Don't be among them.
You'll be preterist once you see this. Write as you will and
you're still off base as I can demonstrate.
You need to deal with the bookends first. You haven't. Let's get
this straight since this is the way John begins and ends his
Revelation.
P. S. I'll give you an irrefutable exegesis of the First Seal
once this is settled.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33584--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: TrevorL Date: April 9, 2023, 3:05 am
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Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1537.msg33581#msg33581 date=1681004766] You have
John's book extending millennia when his book says "things which
shortly must come to pass", meaning the visions John saw.
[/quote]Yes, I consider this from two aspects. The first is that
the First Seal would start immediately, in John's time. The
clear impression that I deduct is that the seals are sequential,
and hence the Preterist concept is incorrect. Also I consider
that in the many hundreds of years between when John received
the Revelation and our time the Prophecy is given in such a way
that the faithful would consider that the return of Jesus would
soon occur.
[quote]You'll be preterist once you see this. Write as you will
and you're still off base as I can demonstrate.
You need to deal with the bookends first. You haven't. Let's get
this straight since this is the way John begins and ends his
Revelation.
P. S. I'll give you an irrefutable exegesis of the First Seal
once this is settled. [/quote]Feel free to expound your view,
but I may not participate as I am solidly convinced about my
understanding of prophecy. I consider that in all the posts so
far you have not refuted or replaced my solid foundation in the
many prophecies and other features. Seeing this is off topic you
may like to start a new, clear thread with a relevant title.
Possibly you have a previous thread covering this subject. I
hope that part of your exegesis will include some of the time
periods, and an explanation of Daniel 2, Daniel 7 and Daniel 8,
including the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and the Little Horn of
Daniel 8. Are these two Horns relevant to AD 70?
The main posts that I have added relevant to "The Yahweh Name"
are the OP, and Replies 1,2,3,13. I consider these have not been
seriously challenged or answered.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33585--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: paralambano Date: April 9, 2023, 6:32 am
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Trevor - ^
You still evade my question about sealed v unsealed.
And I don't know where you get the idea that preterists don't
see the seals as sequential. They all signify (or symbolize) as
John wrote in his prologue certain events that God said must
shortly come to pass for those who read and hear John's Word in
John's day, not stretched out for millennia as you've indicated
lest his book be sealed as was Daniel's. John is unsealing
Daniel's visions of the end time by his Revelation. Remember,
John reveals by signifying and part of what he reveals is
Daniel's culmination in the end time.
John's book is so many wonderful things and one of them is a
liturgical service mirroring the heavenly one. This is why
there's a Reader and those who are blessed by hearing it in
John's day in their churches. Churches which actually existed
then.
You say hundreds of years elapsing for the faithful to have the
parousia. Nonsense. That isn't what John's book says. Rather,
the end time was at hand (if you really understood what that too
meant to him and Paul and all the other Christians back then).
You seal John's book by these hundreds of years like God told
Daniel to seal his of hundreds of years and according to you,
millennia. This is contrary to what God told John.
You need to deal with John's bookends, let alone what Jesus says
within it first. Secondly, you need to understand what form his
entire book is written in, not that it's just prophetic. That's
also a key. It's written in a very special form which will
unlock much of what is inside it.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33586--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: TrevorL Date: April 9, 2023, 8:18 am
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Greetings again paralambano, [quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1537.msg33585#msg33585 date=1681039977] You still
evade my question about sealed v unsealed.
And I don't know where you get the idea that preterists don't
see the seals as sequential. They all signify (or symbolize) as
John wrote in his prologue certain events that God said must
shortly come to pass for those who read and hear John's Word in
John's day, not stretched out for millennia as you've indicated
lest his book be sealed as was Daniel's. John is unsealing
Daniel's visions of the end time by his Revelation. Remember,
John reveals by signifying and part of what he reveals is
Daniel's culmination in the end time. [/quote]I have yet to see
any substantial item where you clearly define a historical
event that fulfils one of the seals, trumpets or vials. I am
sure that some Preterist has attempted this, and there would be
a number of different views. Maybe as a test for me to ask for
more if I am satisfied with the possibility of your view on this
item, you could give your opinion of the 6th Vial: What is
represented by the drying up of the Euphrates River, the unclean
spirits like frogs, and the three items, the beast, dragon and
false prophet, and what exactly is the Battle of Armageddon?
When did this Battle occur? What is the meaning of the Hebrew
word Armageddon?
[quote] Churches which actually existed then.[/quote]Yes, I very
much accept that the Seven Congregations existed and each of the
seven letters was very much applicable to that particular
Congregation.
[quote]You say hundreds of years elapsing for the faithful to
have the parousia. Nonsense. That isn't what John's book says.
Rather, the end time was at hand (if you really understood what
that too meant to him and Paul and all the other Christians back
then). [/quote]My understanding of the second coming of Jesus is
that he will replace the present kingdoms of men with the
Kingdom of God Daniel 2:44 and he will usher in Times of
Refreshing and Restoration Acts 3:19-21.
[quote]You seal John's book by these hundreds of years like God
told Daniel to seal his of hundreds of years and according to
you, millennia. This is contrary to what God told
John.[/quote]You seem to like the term "seal", and yet I cannot
determine what is the practical perspective of your oft repeated
term. When did the seals, trumpets and vials occur?
[quote]You need to deal with John's bookends, let alone what
Jesus says within it first. Secondly, you need to understand
what form his entire book is written in, not that it's just
prophetic. That's also a key. It's written in a very special
form which will unlock much of what is inside it. [/quote]More
rhetoric, but no substantial statement of what has happened.
Surely you could summarise in one Post, or a few Posts, possibly
a new thread "The Seals, the Trumpets and the Vials - Preterism"
or simply give a summary of the 6th Vial. I have never read a
Preterist article, and instead of me guessing, or researching
this, you may be able to give a brief introduction, and at least
some substantial detail.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33588--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: paralambano Date: April 10, 2023, 6:41 am
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Trevor - ^
We can't proceed until you deal with the "bookends" I quoted at
the beginning and end of John's book, that is the "things" which
must shortly come to pass.
You correctly place the first seal in John's day, then you
ridiculously stretch the things which must shortly come to pass
across millennia. Then you say that I'm focused on the sealed
and unsealed! Amazing, when Daniel is told to seal his end time
visions since it will be "many days" but John is told not to
seal his book since the things in it must shortly come to pass.
What Daniel writes is in John's book.
You appear to do what so many pre-millenniasts do. They jump
right into John's book somewhere between these bookends and it's
blah, blah, blah without dealing with what it says in its very
first verses, that is, the preamble and what is said in closing.
You either are hesitant to admit that the things John wrote in
it had to have happened in John's day, or you're being willfully
obstinate. You then want to jump into my evidence between the
bookends and I have more than enough but you first need to deal
with the bookend verses, that is, acknowledge the word of the
Lord by them. You need to have faith at least if you're yet to
have understanding.
You ramble on about a false prophet, "Armageddon", 1917, the
Euphrates, etc. without understanding even how these terms fit
into what form John's book is in. Believe me, I've been where
your head is at by the way you write. You need to accept the
bookends by faith at first as I did, then understanding comes.
You have to begin at the beginning. First, what form are you
looking at by the Apocalypse. Then accepting what it plainly
says at its beginning and very end. Until you do, your
soteriology and eschatology are out of whack.
It will answer your Yahweh comments in this thread as well. This
is what a revelation does.
I see a good sign by what you write about the seven churches if
you have solely placed them in John's day as part of the must
need to shortly come to pass.
Not rhetoric, my dear man. Straight on telling you to deal with
the bookends here which you have failed to do here yet.
para . . . .
#Post#: 33590--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: TrevorL Date: April 10, 2023, 8:44 am
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Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=paralambano
link=topic=1537.msg33588#msg33588 date=1681126918] We can't
proceed until you deal with the "bookends" I quoted at the
beginning and end of John's book, that is the "things" which
must shortly come to pass. [/quote]Well, I am not willing to
play your game. You promised me that once I received your
explanation of some of your perspective that I would become a
Preterist. Here is what you said earlier:
[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1537.msg33581#msg33581
date=1681004766] You have God contradicting Himself by your
eschatology.
Not you, not me, those reading it in John's day. If you know
anything about exegesis, context and audience matters. This book
wasn't written primarily for you or me. We can look back on it
to see how our blessed hope was accomplished. I have the
assurance of prophecy fulfilled.
Not in a distant future of Trevor's day. You and I aren't that
special, Trevor.
You'll be preterist once you see this.
P. S. I'll give you an irrefutable exegesis of the First Seal
once this is settled. [/quote]I consider the Books of Daniel and
Revelation are especially relevant to us, as we are in the Time
of the End, the time when THE Apocalypse will occur.
Now all I am asking is a simple sample, and yet you have refused
what I consider is a simple and reasonable request. Continuing
on with the rest of your latest Post, I am still attempting to
bypass what seems to be your ONLY foundation, your bookends.
[quote]You correctly place the first seal in John's day, then
you ridiculously stretch the things which must shortly come to
pass across millennia. Then you say that I'm focused on the
sealed and unsealed! Amazing, when Daniel is told to seal his
end time visions since it will be "many days" but John is told
not to seal his book since the things in it must shortly come to
pass. What Daniel writes is in John's book. [/quote] Again, your
explanation of sealing seems obscure. Yes, it makes perfect
sense to place the first seal in John's day, while I have heard
a futurist claim it has not happened yet. Here is your
opportunity, as you have stated in the earlier Post as I have
quoted above: "P. S. I'll give you an irrefutable exegesis of
the First Seal once this is settled." If your explanation of the
First Seal will be irrefutable, then your explanation should
stand on its own ground, on its own reasoning. And if
irrefutable, would the evidence of your view of the First Seal
convince me to be a Preterist? The question that weighs on my
mind is: How long a period did the First Seal last, and when did
the Second Seal commence, because I genuinely consider that
these two Seals are sequential, and the very terms of these two
Seals seems to irrefutably state that they are sequential and
the concept of Seals One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six and Seven
indicate that the message of each Seal was only opened and read
after the previous Seal had run its course.
[quote]You appear to do what so many pre-millenniasts do. They
jump right into John's book somewhere between these bookends and
it's blah, blah, blah without dealing with what it says in its
very first verses, that is, the preamble and what is said in
closing. [/quote]I am not rejecting John's preamble, the
"bookends" as you describe this, as I have given an alternative
explanation of this. You also refuse to accept my explanation,
that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are sequential and thus must
be over a long period of time.
[quote]You either are hesitant to admit that the things John
wrote in it had to have happened in John's day, or you're being
willfully obstinate. You then want to jump into my evidence
between the bookends and I have more than enough but you first
need to deal with the bookend verses, that is, acknowledge the
word of the Lord by them. You need to have faith at least if
you're yet to have understanding. [/quote] Yes, I want a sample
of your brilliant exposition and understanding, and possibly the
first two seals may be sufficient, even "irrefutable".
[quote]You ramble on about a false prophet, "Armageddon", 1917,
the Euphrates, etc. without understanding even how these terms
fit into what form John's book is in. Believe me, I've been
where your head is at by the way you write. You need to accept
the bookends by faith at first as I did, then understanding
comes. You have to begin at the beginning. First, what form are
you looking at by the Apocalypse. Then accepting what it
plainly says at its beginning and very end. Until you do, your
soteriology and eschatology are out of whack. [/quote]Actually
you may consider I am rambling, but these are very much a part
of the Book of Revelation, and I am very interested in
Revelation 16:12-16 because I believe that we are in the middle
of this period, from AD 1917 till the return of Jesus and the
Battle of Armageddon. I also consider that this is the same time
period mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45 which has the term "the time
of the end" applied to it. I had hoped to test your irrefutable
exposition by this portion of both Daniel and Revelation, but
you are not willing to take up the challenge. I will even reduce
the quantity, and ask: What is the Drying up of the Euphrates?
If you do not respond with either the first two Seals, or this
aspect concerning the Euphrates, then I will not particularly
engage directly with you again. I have an explanation of both
Daniel 11:40 and Revelation 16:12 which I will share if you
fail. We have just finished Revelation 16:12 (and 16:13-14) in
our Sunday School Class and previously I saw this as only one
layer. Now I will accept one principal layer, but our Senior
Expositor(s) suggested another one or two layers.
[quote]It will answer your Yahweh comments in this thread as
well. This is what a revelation does.[/quote]I wait with baited
breath (is this the correct expression?). Will this contradict
my Posts at the beginning of this thread, as I consider these to
be on very solid ground. If you disagree with these four Posts
then you should answer them directly.
[quote]I see a good sign by what you write about the seven
churches if you have solely placed them in John's day as part of
the must need to shortly come to pass.[/quote]I consider that it
is obvious that these Letters were applicable to the individual
Congregations in John's day. But I will not dismiss the possible
two additional layers that I have heard, speaking of the decline
in the Ecclesial World, either from AD 96 to AD 312, or from AD
96 to the return of Christ.
[quote]Not rhetoric, my dear man. Straight on telling you to
deal with the bookends here which you have failed to do here
yet.[/quote] I am trying to bypass your roadblock, which I
consider to be a wrong understanding of "things which must
shortly come to pass", but I suggest that it is you that is
stubborn. Late evening here in NSW Australia, 11:44 PM. Will
need to take an eight hour break, so take your time on the First
and Second Seals or the Drying up of the Euphrates. Not too
difficult a task I hope, and then I may become a Preterist, and
a Trinitarian if your claim is correct, but I have my genuine
doubts.
Kind regards
Trevor
#Post#: 33591--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Yahweh Name
By: TrevorL Date: April 10, 2023, 4:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Greetings again paralambano,[quote author=TrevorL
link=topic=1537.msg33590#msg33590 date=1681134255] I had hoped
to test your irrefutable exposition by this portion of both
Daniel and Revelation, but you are not willing to take up the
challenge. I will even reduce the quantity, and ask: What is the
Drying up of the Euphrates? If you do not respond with either
the first two Seals, or this aspect concerning the Euphrates,
then I will not particularly engage directly with you again. I
have an explanation of both Daniel 11:40 and Revelation 16:12
which I will share if you fail. [/quote]I am briefly on my
tablet this early morning, but need to start my computer later
this afternoon to write about Daniel 11:40 and Revelation 16:12
as a few items are only accessible on the computer. This will
give you more time to respond if you are willing and available.
Also seeing that we both agree that the First Seal occurred in
John's day then there should be no impediment to reveal your
"irrefutable" view of this.
Kind regards
Trevor
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