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#Post#: 13885--------------------------------------------------
Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 8, 2017, 9:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Based on my personal observations, this is how I ended up
seeing, in general, a formal Christian and the today�s disciple
of Jesus. Obviously, many people in the world (if not all ;) )
may not agree on some details here.
Part 1:
*** A formal Christian belongs to a certain specific Christian
system that has its own religious rules (and likely with
inherited traditional rituals).
This membership makes him look, at best, as a stranger to every
person belonging to another system (claimed being Christian or
not, religious or not) which is based on a different set of
rules.
*** The today�s disciple of Jesus lives (or is able to
live/survive) as an independent individual (as Jesus did) who
has no rules to follow other than of his Caesar (actually, of
the system ruling his region) as long these rules don�t
contradict his unconditional love towards all others; friends,
strangers and even those who are presented (or act) as being his
enemies.
#Post#: 13898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: guest6 Date: February 9, 2017, 10:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1172.msg13885#msg13885
date=1486567916]
Based on my personal observations, this is how I ended up
seeing, in general, a formal Christian and the today�s disciple
of Jesus. Obviously, many people in the world (if not all ;) )
may not agree on some details here.
Part 1:
*** A formal Christian belongs to a certain specific Christian
system that has its own religious rules (and likely with
inherited traditional rituals).
This membership makes him look, at best, as a stranger to every
person belonging to another system (claimed being Christian or
not, religious or not) which is based on a different set of
rules.
*** The today�s disciple of Jesus lives (or is able to
live/survive) as an independent individual (as Jesus did) who
has no rules to follow other than of his Caesar (actually, of
the system ruling his region) as long these rules don�t
contradict his unconditional love towards all others; friends,
strangers and even those who are presented (or act) as being his
enemies.
[/quote]
There are too many churches/denominations claiming to be the
only true
church/religion; that you have to go through them to get to God.
There is also too much influence by media and politics on
Christians. There are too many Christians fighting each other
instead of praying for each other and for others in the world.
There's too much division and hate and not enough love,
compassion, kindness and unity.
#Post#: 13902--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: February 9, 2017, 8:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1172.msg13885#msg13885
date=1486567916]
Based on my personal observations, this is how I ended up
seeing, in general, a formal Christian and the today�s disciple
of Jesus. Obviously, many people in the world (if not all ;) )
may not agree on some details here.
Part 1:
*** A formal Christian belongs to a certain specific Christian
system that has its own religious rules (and likely with
inherited traditional rituals).
This membership makes him look, at best, as a stranger to every
person belonging to another system (claimed being Christian or
not, religious or not) which is based on a different set of
rules.
*** The today�s disciple of Jesus lives (or is able to
live/survive) as an independent individual (as Jesus did) who
has no rules to follow other than of his Caesar (actually, of
the system ruling his region) as long these rules don�t
contradict his unconditional love towards all others; friends,
strangers and even those who are presented (or act) as being his
enemies.
[/quote]There is a saying, "When the student is ready, the
teacher will appear."
We can observe that God often gives us what we want, allowing us
to do and to believe what we please. If our hearts are not
pure, we will crave impure things; and if we seek a religion,
we will be attracted to one that justifies our own purities.
Thus it is natural and normal that many men follow religions
that are false to some degree, false in one way or another; and
more, I think God was both clever and good to design the world
this way. The people who are deceived in this way, wanting to
be deceived, will be bruised and unhappy as a result. They are
like a fish on a hook or a dog on a leash. Quite often,
false religion promises freedom but delivers slavery.
Remember that most evil in this world is wanting to be free
ourselves to do something which we don't want others to do to
us; and false religion often promises just that, saying God will
be partial and play favorites with us if we do what the
religious leader tells us.
Remember this too -- during this stage of being inside false
religion, the soul is still often being educated in many things.
The experiences are not a total loss. Great knowledge can be
gleaned by reviewing the past and its failures.
When the soul wearies of this pointless type of religion, and
when the soul feels crushed by its own selfishness and the
futility of pursuing that selfishness, it may give up in
desperation and turn to complete wickedness, or it can turn to
Heaven and ask, "Is there a God? Is there any good? Is there
any truth?" In this state of ignorance, the soul cannot know
much for sure; but if the soul sincerely craves truth, God will
supply it. We should believe this: God will supply whatever
we truly need since God is Good.
This kind of soul is not sure at first when he hears a teacher
speaking the truth. It could be another hoax for all he knows.
But he hears it and hopes it's true just as the Bereans heard
and hoped. This sort of teacher never flatters you by
pretending you're better than you really are; and the soul which
is ready to see its own flaws happily corrects them when he sees
them. This is one way you can tell if you have a teacher worth
anything. You will see improvement in yourself. Behind you
you know there have been errors -- but that's not who or what
you are now. The past is dead and you look ahead. Don't look
back and fret over things which can't be changed -- do right and
good things now and make the future better. Of course, if you
offended someone and can correct it, do it; but don't clobber
yourself over the head over the past.
The soul gradually builds trust and confidence in a teacher who
speaks truth. He can verify for himself that much of what his
teacher says is true. A real teacher of God does not say, "You
must believe this because I say so." He will say however,
"Believe this for now on my say-so. You should find out later
it's true for yourself; and then you will really know for
yourself." As time goes by, the student does come to see for
himself if his teacher was right and inspired to say it to him.
Finally, we should realize that any proper teacher wants his
students to learn and to know for themselves. He does not want
them to be his pupils eternally. Even if they want it, he
doesn't want it and won't permit it. They must grow up
spiritually for themselves and not "lean" on him eternally as
their earthly teacher. False teachers will want you to think
you will always need them and never really know anything for
yourself. This is contrary to the teaching of Jesus who said he
had to go away so his disciples would grow up!
#Post#: 13913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 13, 2017, 6:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1172.msg13902#msg13902
date=1486694274]
Finally, we should realize that any proper teacher wants his
students to learn and to know for themselves. He does not want
them to be his pupils eternally. Even if they want it, he
doesn't want it and won't permit it. They must grow up
spiritually for themselves and not "lean" on him eternally as
their earthly teacher. False teachers will want you to think
you will always need them and never really know anything for
yourself. This is contrary to the teaching of Jesus who said he
had to go away so his disciples would grow up!
[/quote]
By the way, the word 'disciple' is 'student' in the Arabic
Gospel.
Yes, Jesus never says "please or worship God by following
certain rules (as in Judaism, Islam and other today's
religions/beliefs)".
Jesus message is simply... "be perfect as your Father, in
Heaven, is... by living the divine unconditional love towards
all others...". For this, Jesus also gives the logical answers
of all questions that one may need to know in order to live in
balance and without having confusions about worldly matters.
But, on the other hand, Jesus addresses only those who have,
besides their human living flesh, a human living soul which is
born of the Spirit (not born from the flesh of their parents).
And although the great majority of the human race has a human
living flesh only, such intelligent beings are as important for
the continuity of life, as all other created living things are.
So it is natural that many people in the world have no reason to
learn from Jesus but this doesn't prevent some of them to use
Jesus name and his story to gain money and power, if not to be
famous, in a way or another.
#Post#: 13914--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 13, 2017, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Part 2:
*** The today�s disciple of Jesus gets the answers of all
important questions concerning the end purpose for which he is
created in the first place and about the real world in which he
has to live in from Jesus sayings only. By having the detailed
true knowledge, the today�s disciple of Jesus can find his right
path (way) on which he can, if he wants to, feed his human
living soul so that it can survive for eternity (in the Realm of
his Creator).
*** A formal Christian is not supposed to say that Jesus Christ
is perfect in his teachings/sayings, practically speaking.
Instead, he should also follow the teachings of his Church
(actually, of a certain Christian system)... even if some of
these teachings ignore or contradict Jesus sayings and,
therefore, help him share the glory of men (of his system�s
group in the least).
Edited
#Post#: 13915--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: Kerry Date: February 13, 2017, 11:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=KerimF link=topic=1172.msg13913#msg13913
date=1486987965]
By the way, the word 'disciple' is 'student' in the Arabic
Gospel.[/quote]It is the same in Greek too.
[quote]Yes, Jesus never says "please or worship God by following
certain rules (as in Judaism, Islam and other today's
religions/beliefs)".[/quote]I would say he gave a rule but
didn't explain how to go about obeying it.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
[quote]Jesus message is simply... "be perfect as your Father, in
Heaven, is... by living the divine unconditional love towards
all others...". For this, Jesus also gives the logical answers
of all questions that one may need to know in order to live in
balance and without having confusions about worldly
matters.[/quote]
I wouldn't use the word "unconditional" since that is a modern
word not used in the Scriptures. Note too that Jesus doesn't
tell us how to love others or how to love God. I remember
being baffled by the commandment to love God. How could I love
him fully if I didn't know what (or who) He was? So this became
a struggle for me -- coming to know God more meant I could love
Him more.
[quote]But, on the other hand, Jesus addresses only those who
have, besides their human living flesh, a human living soul
which is born of the Spirit (not born from the flesh of their
parents). And although the great majority of the human race has
a human living flesh only, such intelligent beings are as
important for the continuity of life, as all other created
living things are. So it is natural that many people in the
world have no reason to learn from Jesus but this doesn't
prevent some of them to use Jesus name and his story to gain
money and power, if not to be famous, in a way or
another.[/quote]
I can't agree with you on this. Not many souls were "alive"
when Jesus came to the earth. They were "dead" in their sins
and unawareness. But there was something worth saving, if they
could be brought back to life.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Had they come to him, they could have had life.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill,
and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that
they might have it more abundantly.
Two promises there: That those without life might get it, and
they who have it may have more.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might
have life through his name.
"Name" there means "authority" to me. If the "dead" soul can
believe Jesus is the Christed One, then by the authority given
to Jesus, that soul can be awakened and brought back to life.
#Post#: 13924--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 15, 2017, 4:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1172.msg13915#msg13915
date=1487048450]
I would say he gave a rule but didn't explain how to go about
obeying it.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
[/quote]
Thank you for referring to this saying.
Jesus was talking to a woman. And this woman was asking Him
about the right way (at the time of the ancient Jews) to worship
God. This woman used knowing God (as all Jews do) as a
Supernatural King having a ruling system in Heaven and looking
for obedient worshipers on earth (much like Muslims and Pagans
have to believe about their gods). For her, worshipping means
obeying God�s commandments and glorifying God via certain
approved rituals. This was the case because the ancient human
being (before Jesus time) wasn�t evolved (or developed) yet to
have and perceive the human living soul (in other words, the
ancient men were like the kids of humanity). So God addressed
the ancient Jews as we do with our little kids; by asking them
to follow some rules. We do it in order to help them clean and
protect their bodies and avoid being in troubles so that they
can, when adult, be ready to be responsible of themselves.
Therefore, Jesus reply was simply something like: �The image of
God you heard of is no more valid for those who will be born
also of the Spirit... because God is a Spirit�.
Jesus didn�t go on telling her how �worshipping God in spirit�
is because it has no traditional or new rules/rituals to be
followed; �On these two commandments hang all the law and the
prophets� (in Arabic, �commandments� is translated much like as
�advices� from a loving father to his sons).
#Post#: 13925--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 15, 2017, 9:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1172.msg13915#msg13915
date=1487048450]
I wouldn't use the word "unconditional" since that is a modern
word not used in the Scriptures. Note too that Jesus doesn't
tell us how to love others or how to love God. I remember
being baffled by the commandment to love God. How could I love
him fully if I didn't know what (or who) He was? So this became
a struggle for me -- coming to know God more meant I could love
Him more.
wakened and brought back to life.
[/quote]
You are right the word "unconditional" is a modern word.
To me in the least, it is short of: "That ye may be the children
of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise
on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on
the unjust."
On my side, I deal with others as my Father in Heaven (and Jesus
of course) does. So I am not weird in doing this ;) And thanks
to Jesus who shows me this fact by two simple examples.
Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit (by which the Father and Jesus are
unified and have one Will/Power; as if they were one being when
seen by any outsider spirit) that I have accepted in me since
many decades helps me remember always that I am created by an
unlimited loving Will/Power in whatever situation may happen to
me. Simply stated, I trust God with all my heart, mind and soul.
That's all ;)
#Post#: 13926--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 15, 2017, 10:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=1172.msg13915#msg13915
date=1487048450]
I can't agree with you on this. Not many souls were "alive"
when Jesus came to the earth. They were "dead" in their sins
and unawareness. But there was something worth saving, if they
could be brought back to life.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Had they come to him, they could have had life.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill,
and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that
they might have it more abundantly.
Two promises there: That those without life might get it, and
they who have it may have more.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might
have life through his name.
"Name" there means "authority" to me. If the "dead" soul can
believe Jesus is the Christed One, then by the authority given
to Jesus, that soul can be awakened and brought back to life.
[/quote]
It is not a crime that a theist sees God as having powers of
Magic.
For example, a Muslim believes that a soul will be saved for
eternity (will live in Allah's paradise) if it can believe
something like: "No God but Allah, Mohammad is Allah's
messenger".
Also, all Churches in the world (despite their differences) have
agreed on telling their followers that their soul can be saved
if they really believe that Jesus is the Christed One.
I bet that this sort of magical power (based on believing a
certain idea and/or repeating certain words) could be found in
any religion/belief known by men.
To me in the least, Jesus came to save me from my ignorance with
which I, like any other human baby, was born.
On the other hand, I personally wish that Jesus came to save
human souls by magic (by believing and/or repeating something).
In this case, saving my soul would be much easier than loving
all others as my Creator does {Matthew 5:45, I mentioned
earlier} ;)
#Post#: 14021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Formal Christian vs. today�s disciple of Jesus
By: KerimF Date: February 28, 2017, 3:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Part 3:
*** A formal Christian usually feels the need to spread the
entire Bible as being God�s Word (not just Jesus
teachings/sayings). And when necessary, he may defend any of its
various verses even if he doesn�t/cannot apply it in his life,
for being unrealistic to him.
*** The today�s disciple of Jesus knows already that Jesus
sayings (not necessarily the entire Bible) could be heard/read
by almost any mature person in the world (it is translated to
the most known languages). He also knows that whoever cannot see
the end purpose of his existence in Jesus sayings, no other
source can replace them. In other words, on these days, he
doesn't see necessary arguing about Jesus message with anyone.
He just needs to feed his soul continuously despite all what may
happen to his body and surroundings; being armed by the perfect
knowledge that he got from his Creator directly; the Living Son
of God.
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