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#Post#: 11894--------------------------------------------------
Is Evil a House Divided?
By: Kerry Date: April 12, 2016, 7:33 am
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I've been thinking more about this passage.
Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said,
He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he
out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables,
How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom
cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot
stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he
cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his
goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he
will spoil his house.
It seems to be saying at first glance that Satan's kingdom is
unified and orderly. Was Jesus really saying that though? Or
was he mocking the scribes?
I think the Dark Side is divided and cannot stand for that very
reason. I don't see any demons, imps or unclean spirits (call
them whatever you want) have an ounce of loyalty. If they
appear loyal, it's really fear of what would happen if they
rebelled or were no longer of use. I do not see any unity or
honor among thieves or murderers. Nor can I believe Satan is
going to show anyone else any loyalty or kindness; if you no
longer are of use to him, he'll betray you in an instant and
then laugh.
Love, the tie that binds, is what will ensure the triumph of
good in the end.
Thus I am coming to believe Jesus was asking indirectly, "Why
would I choose to be part of the system of evil which is a
house divided and bound to fail? Even if I was inclined to evil
myself, why would I join a system that would guarantee my own
downfall?"
Consider this too:
Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,
and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built
his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds
blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was
founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth
them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his
house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds
blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the
fall of it.
Evil cannot be a house that will stand, can it? Thoughts,
anyone?
#Post#: 11899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: HOLLAND Date: April 12, 2016, 2:55 pm
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I think, Kerry, that the existential condition of humankind is
that it is inwardly divided, and that it is a consequence of
evil or of the lacking of some good that is acknowledged or not
acknowledged as existing. We are in a certain extent all evil;
and, none are good.
I think of evil, or rather, of the evil person, more
particularly, is the one who delights in that inner division
that permits the greater possibility of deceit and of turning
away from the good. Evil must destroy and must be
self-destructive.
I would agree that a house divided cannot stand. The evil
person does not want the house to stand but seeks division.
Divide and conquer works, but it also destroys.
Peace be with you!
#Post#: 11900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: Justaname Date: April 12, 2016, 3:10 pm
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I have always thought that Jesus was just showing them the
foolishness of what they were saying. Here He was, casting out
devils, and they telling him that He himself had a devil and
that He was getting His power from the devil, rather than God.
He showed then the foolishness of what they were saying. Which
would be 'a house' acting against itself!!
Kerry said:- "I don't see any demons, imps or unclean spirits
(call them whatever you want) have an ounce of loyalty. If
they appear loyal, it's really fear of what would happen if they
rebelled or were no longer of use. I do not see any unity or
honor among thieves or murderers.
I agree, they are all liars, there is no honour, but they do
have an hierarchy and system of government and order which must
be obeyed, they 'know their place.' They would hate the
thought of 'loyalty and honour'. As pain, anguish , and agony is
like candy to them, they feed on it. Any good virtues they
would sneer at.
I can see 'a house' ( any house) with devils ( within people)
fighting for positions of power, causes that house/family to
fall. And that would be their whole agenda and purpose.
Probably why so much emphasis is put upon the command to 'love
one another'... bring into being a strong house.
#Post#: 11909--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: Kerry Date: April 15, 2016, 1:00 am
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^ My time to post has been limited lately, but I've been
thinking about the posts here while driving.
Saying no one is good may mean "not by himself" -- in a divided
state, separate from Heaven, no one can be said to be good.
However if that one is united with the One True God, then what?
He is still "not good" by himself but the goodness of God can
fill him.
This may explain why Jesus' attention went to the sin against
the Holy Spirit. If we meet someone who is filled with the Holy
Spirit and can experience the moving of the Spirit in him and go
on to deny it, then what? If we had the Holy Spirit before, I
think we would be risking it by opposing its manifestation and
presence in others. We would be creating a division within the
Unity which is God -- thus converting self into something
satanic.
Matthew 7:Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with
what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
We could be falling ourselves if we judge someone else and
attribute to demons what came from God.
#Post#: 11911--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: paralambano Date: April 16, 2016, 5:05 am
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. . . . or attribute to God what comes from demons . . . .
Job was "born-again" when he understood that evil can't proceed
from God lest He be a house divided Himself.
para . . . .
#Post#: 11913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: Kerry Date: April 16, 2016, 7:21 am
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1069.msg11911#msg11911
date=1460801101]
. . . . or attribute to God what comes from demons . . .
.[/quote]I don't see this as being as serious as the other way
around. There are four possibilities in life: We can return
evil for evil or good for good; and these two appear to be
normal practice. The Christian is commanded to return good for
evil; and that leaves the last case, that of returning evil for
good -- an abomination in my book if done deliberately and
knowingly. If we attribute to God something demons did, I see
little risk if we are not beguiled into doing evil ourselves.
Thus love is the measure we judge by. If the actions of demons
increase our love of God and inspire acts of love towards
others, my guess is the demons would depart and cease doing
them.
[quote]Job was "born-again" when he understood that evil can't
proceed from God lest He be a house divided Himself. [/quote]In
one way, yes -- but it may hinge on how we define "God".
Hi P, what do you make of these?
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath
is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So
Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the
foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand
of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job
sin with his lips.
Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and
the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously
with Abimelech:
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,
and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying
spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath
spoken evil concerning thee.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
#Post#: 11915--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: paralambano Date: April 17, 2016, 5:36 am
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Kerry-
No time. Short answer for verses you provided.
You said it. Job imagines evil. This is the carnal state and
the carnal state is self- destructive. Impossible for the Love
tree to produce or send rotten fruit when it is omnipresent
perfect Good. Impossible for Good to even lay its eyes on evil.
Free will allows us to suffer the consequences of our
hallucinatory states of mind. In this there's no sin. The carnal
mind gets what's coming to it from its state.
para . . . .
#Post#: 11941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: paralambano Date: April 19, 2016, 3:23 pm
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Addendum -
The people of the deluge imagined evil constantly. They like Job
had free will. I reject the anthropomorphic tone of the pshat of
the verses provided, the last of which reads "disaster" not evil
since it's in the form of a poem.
Yes, it depends on our view of God. I say that there is not an
iota of evil in God/Love. He neither thinks, does, or
commissions evil ever. He does not know evil as a reality, only
as an unreal hypothetical. God does evil like He blows smoke out
of his nose. The remez tells us He's angry. Dig deeper, deeper
and we discover it's what we do with the good gift Love gave:
free will. We stand twixt the trees in the garden and Love says
choose.
What Job feared came upon him by choice. This is presented to
ancients as a king sending a conquering prince (satan) to do
some hurt when all the while Job's carnal fear produces his
"reality". Jesus by Christ remedies this by His "fear not, fear
not". God Good is All, Job. There is nothing to fear but to be
awed and kept safe by His loving omnipresence.
The kingdom is always present, at hand. When we choose
righteously, we advance however quickly or slowly and the carnal
mind producing the unreality of evil dissolves and our
consciousness thinks like God thinks - only Good always. We find
ourselves in heaven. This is the uncovering of our true selves,
the image and likeness of God which we never truly lost since
God makes no mistakes, does no evil whatsoever ever.
We reap what we sow.
para . . . . .
#Post#: 11943--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: Kerry Date: April 19, 2016, 7:50 pm
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[quote author=paralambano link=topic=1069.msg11941#msg11941
date=1461097418]
Addendum -
The people of the deluge imagined evil constantly. They like Job
had free will.[/quote]Then we must conclude if they imagined
evil constantly, God is somehow behind it since He gave them
free will.
[quote]I reject the anthropomorphic tone of the pshat of the
verses provided, the last of which reads "disaster" not evil
since it's in the form of a poem.[/quote]It may read "disaster"
in some translations; but it's the same word used in Genesis
2:9. It's fairly obvious to me Isaiah had Genesis in mind when
writing this. I also believe we may miss something if we allow
uneven translations to "clean up" the Scriptures. When a
passage is difficult, that may be a sign it contains something
significant for us if we struggle with it; but if the
translators have obscured matters by "cleaning up" the passage,
we'll miss that opportunity.
The word, so far as I can see, does not mean "iniquity." It's
more like "bad" meaning unproductive or empty. Jesus talks
about "bad" trees although he doesn't use the word "bad" in
the KJV:
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather
grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The KJV does translate that word "bad" here however:
Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and
sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad
away.
I think "disaster" is a mistaken choice of words in Isaiah since
that implies things were going along fine and suddenly went bad;
and this would make God the author of disasters. I believe God
"created" evil, perhaps most notably, space -- empty space. We
can say this was "bad" since there was nothing in it. It was
barren and unproductive; but it had potential for good within
it.
This movement of bad to good strikes us as "good." If you read
"good news" at sites that report it, you will find almost every
piece starts off with either a disaster or a looming disaster of
some sort. Someone averts it and makes something good happen;
and this is reported as "good" news.
[quote]Yes, it depends on our view of God. I say that there is
not an iota of evil in God/Love. He neither thinks, does, or
commissions evil ever. He does not know evil as a reality, only
as an unreal hypothetical. God does evil like He blows smoke out
of his nose. The remez tells us He's angry. Dig deeper, deeper
and we discover it's what we do with the good gift Love gave:
free will. We stand twixt the trees in the garden and Love says
choose. [/quote]
How much like God is man? Are spiritually pure angels and
perfected men part of God? Can a part of God fall?
[quote]What Job feared came upon him by choice. This is
presented to ancients as a king sending a conquering prince
(satan) to do some hurt when all the while Job's carnal fear
produces his "reality". Jesus by Christ remedies this by His
"fear not, fear not". God Good is All, Job. There is nothing to
fear but to be awed and kept safe by His loving
omnipresence.[/quote]
I see Job with the classic case of double-mindedness. By
choosing to do good and perfecting himself, he strengthened the
good urge in himself and weakened the evil urge. He still had
a spiritual problem however -- his spirit was separated from
God. I see such separated or fallen spirits as part of Satan.
Perhaps they can be called satan. When the time was ready for
this problem to be resolved, when Job was strong enough to pass
the test, the test was given -- not to prove anything to God or
to demean Satan but to benefit Job and bring him relief. Thus
it was God who decided to talk to Satan about Job. God
initiated things because only God knows when someone can pass
this test -- the test St. John of the Cross called the Dark
Night of the Soul.
Curiously enough, Satan is not mentioned at the end of the book.
What happened to him? I say he ceased to be satanic and was
restored to his former state. Another lost sheep was found.
I compare this too to how Jesus called Peter satan, and look how
Peter turned out. To me then, I see "satan" as a delusional
spiritual state when a godlike being has wrong ideas about both
God and himself.
[quote]The kingdom is always present, at hand. When we choose
righteously, we advance however quickly or slowly and the carnal
mind producing the unreality of evil dissolves and our
consciousness thinks like God thinks - only Good always. We find
ourselves in heaven. This is the uncovering of our true selves,
the image and likeness of God which we never truly lost since
God makes no mistakes, does no evil whatsoever ever.
We reap what we sow.[/quote]Some days I prefer the Buddhist
version of things when they speak of peaceful and wrathful
deities. No matter what appears, we should remember everything
is an expression of "The One." There is nothing to be afraid
of unless it's our own delusions.
#Post#: 11950--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Evil a House Divided?
By: paralambano Date: April 20, 2016, 8:39 am
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Kerry -
No, that's not the way I think about it. I don't trace evil
choices to the very good gift of free will and then on to God
primarily when there 's no reality in evil as I see it. This is
like blaming a father for the choice a child made to use the
gift of a bike to run someone down. The gift of free will is
very good since every gift from God is very good.
Second, I don't have the time to demonstrate the linguistics of
"disaster" so I'll grant you that it means evil since it's
extraneous to my point. But again, Job's and Pharaoh's
narratives begin with their choices. Job imagines evil if his
children; pharaoh imagines death for the firstborn, etc. It's
their carnality (carnal mind) which initiates their problems.
Satan's Job's carnal mind. It's gone at the end since Job by
then has the Christ mind in him instead. Pharaoh enters the
deluge with his old man (carnal mind). Job admits that the thing
he feared most (not having the hedge) has happened. He chose to
believe what his seducer was telling him when all the while his
hedge was up.
Jesus also said either make the whole tree good and its fruit
good or make it rotten and its fruit rotten. There is no parlay
between good and evil. Evil as space is nothing as you write but
that space can't be nothing since it too is filled by the
omnipresence of Good.
Yes, our own delusions entirely. Projections of our carnal minds
which tell us erroneously that God is somehow missing. Fix the
projector inside and the image on the screen changes. Heaven or
hell. Yes, "the One". I reiterate Love's purity. There is no
evil in Love at all. No commissions, no evil thinking. We are
like God now. He makes no mistakes, no junk. Our evil imaginings
are not real. We enter heaven when we recover our right minds,
the only mind there actually is, God's.
para . . . .
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