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#Post#: 13554--------------------------------------------------
Re: A ""Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: Willie T Date: March 26, 2020, 2:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So many people seem to have missed everything here. Don't all
of you say you "believe" the things claimed of God in creation
are true? Well then, you must not believe in gravity and orbits
and all the other things science tells us about Astronomy.
Why do I say that? Because the Bible says God "Hung" the moon
and other heavenly bodies up in the sky. See? when it comes
right down to it, we all have to "hedge" and back-peddle about
what we actually do (and don't) believe.
#Post#: 13556--------------------------------------------------
Re: A ""Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: Nancy Date: March 26, 2020, 3:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Willie T link=topic=855.msg13503#msg13503
date=1585168763]
[size=16pt]From one of my courses:
A BELIEF EXPERIMENT
To begin our work on an experiential note, before I present a
lot of heavy conceptual material, I want to propose a thought
experiment — or better yet, call it a belief experiment. A
belief experiment is where you decide that you will deliberately
believe, as much as you can, a certain thing for a strictly
limited period, say, ten minutes. This is quite different from
the many things we believe for all our lives, never having made
a decision in the first place about whether and for how long we
were going to believe them. So many of them were just
programmed in by our world as we were growing up. A belief
experiment is an experiment: you adopt a belief, observe what
happens during the time you adopt the belief, and then let it
go, so that you can evaluate what the effect of that belief is.
I designed this belief experiment to bring out some important
emotional themes of the culture we modern Westerners live in,
although these beliefs have spread all over the world at this
point. It also aims to bring out some things we implicitly
believe, even if we would never want to express them verbally as
our beliefs. We are going to read a statement of belief, which
is deliberately in the form of a religious creed. It is in a
form parallel to the Apostles' Creed, actually, but it reflects
modern beliefs and is not intended to imply anything derogatory
about Christianity....
[/quote]
THE WESTERN CREED
I BELIEVE in the material universe as the only and ultimate
reality, a universe controlled by fixed physical laws and blind
chance. <---- Only because of how God has awesomely worked in my
life when I could see no way so no, I do not believe the
material as the only and ultimate reality, on the contrary I see
it the other way around even more so...I believe the spiritual
realm is more real than this physical world, which will rot! I
cannot even conceive of "blind chance", I do believe the
universe is controlled by fixed physical laws held in place and
sustained by God Himself.
I AFFIRM that the universe has no creator, no objective purpose,
and no objective meaning or destiny. <---I never believed this,
even when I was OF the world...life is way to intricate and I
find it harder to NOT believe than to believe.
I MAINTAIN that all ideas about God or gods, enlightened beings,
prophets and saviors, or nonphysical beings or forces are
superstitions and delusions. <--- I believe quite the opposite,
way too much of the things God made in this world, not to
mention all the fulfilled prophecies.
Life and consciousness are totally identical to physical
processes and arose from chance interactions of blind physical
forces.< -----Can't get something from nothing! Like the rest
of life, my life and my consciousness have no objective purpose,
meaning, or destiny. <-----I cannot even IMAGINE this to be
true. How sad that many do believe this. I have HOPE.
I BELIEVE that all judgments, values, and moralities, whether my
own or others', are subjective, arising solely from biological
determinants, personal history, and chance.<---- Hmm, tough one.
I suppose I believe this to a point. But, if it ever contradicts
the Word of God then...I would say no. We all come from
different backgrounds and lives, some are prone to certain bents
whether born that way or not. BUT...as a Christian, we know that
His grace is sufficient for ANYTHING! :)
Free will is an illusion.<---- B.S. :D Did God not warn Cain if
he did good if would be well with him? Is that not free choice?
many other verses (IMO) pertaining to free will.
Therefore, the most rational values I can personally live by
must be based on the knowledge that, for me, what pleases me is
good, what pains me is sad. Those who please me or help me
avoid pain are my friends; those who pain me or keep me from my
pleasure are my enemies. Rationality requires that friends and
enemies be used in ways that maximize my pleasure and minimize
my pain. <----Haha, NO, selfish. Hardly...even in the secular
world there is a belief that with no pain there's no gain. It
is the only way to refine us and teach us. Without trials, we
all remain complacent and never grow, spiritually or even
carnally.
I AFFIRM that churches have no real use other than social
support,<--- I can partially agree with Churches having a
measure of milk...but, most of the mainline ones NEVER get their
sheep off the milk, and I can see the "social club" attitude
going on, even in my own local body.
...that there are no objective sins to commit or be forgiven
for, that there is no retribution for sin or reward for virtue
other than that which I can arrange, directly or through others.
<---- If we do not realize our sinfulness then, there cannot be
any asking for forgiveness, or repenting. I would say many
Christians might see it this way but, personally, I do not.
Virtue for me is getting what I want without being caught and
being punished by other. <--- How does one's behavior show high
moral standards if one just wants something other than a real
need...virtue to me means high moral standards and, even though
one might not believe God does not see what is done in secret,
HE DOES! lol.
I MAINTAIN that the death of the body is the death of the mind.
There is no afterlife and all hope of such is nonsense.<---I can
only hope this is not true as, it is not what I ever believed,
it would leave us hopeless! :O
Sorry Willie, if I did not do this correct. So, just let me
know what I'm missing :)
#Post#: 13557--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: Ivor Date: March 26, 2020, 3:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Willie T said
So many people seem to have missed everything here. Don't all
of you say you "believe" the things claimed of God in creation
are true? Well then, you must not believe in gravity and orbits
and all the other things science tells us about Astronomy.
Why do I say that? Because the Bible says God "Hung" the moon
and other heavenly bodies up in the sky. See? when it comes
right down to it, we all have to "hedge" and back-peddle about
what we actually do (and don't) believe. QUOTE
He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth
upon nothing. Do you not think that description is a simple
truth or a lie? - it must be one or the other what's your simple
reply... mine is that the Word is truth
We have parasites living on us and in us and God doesn't deal
with telling us about them because it is not in the redemption
love story but the earth is - its in Genesis and our home
#Post#: 13559--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: Willie T Date: March 26, 2020, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Nancy link=topic=855.msg13556#msg13556
date=1585253916]
THE WESTERN CREED
I BELIEVE in the material universe as the only and ultimate
reality, a universe controlled by fixed physical laws and blind
chance. <---- Only because of how God has awesomely worked in my
life when I could see no way so no, I do not believe the
material as the only and ultimate reality, on the contrary I see
it the other way around even more so...I believe the spiritual
realm is more real than this physical world, which will rot! I
cannot even conceive of "blind chance", I do believe the
universe is controlled by fixed physical laws held in place and
sustained by God Himself.
I AFFIRM that the universe has no creator, no objective purpose,
and no objective meaning or destiny. <---I never believed this,
even when I was OF the world...life is way to intricate and I
find it harder to NOT believe than to believe.
I MAINTAIN that all ideas about God or gods, enlightened beings,
prophets and saviors, or nonphysical beings or forces are
superstitions and delusions. <--- I believe quite the opposite,
way too much of the things God made in this world, not to
mention all the fulfilled prophecies.
Life and consciousness are totally identical to physical
processes and arose from chance interactions of blind physical
forces.< -----Can't get something from nothing! Like the rest
of life, my life and my consciousness have no objective purpose,
meaning, or destiny. <-----I cannot even IMAGINE this to be
true. How sad that many do believe this. I have HOPE.
I BELIEVE that all judgments, values, and moralities, whether my
own or others', are subjective, arising solely from biological
determinants, personal history, and chance.<---- Hmm, tough one.
I suppose I believe this to a point. But, if it ever contradicts
the Word of God then...I would say no. We all come from
different backgrounds and lives, some are prone to certain bents
whether born that way or not. BUT...as a Christian, we know that
His grace is sufficient for ANYTHING! :)
Free will is an illusion.<---- B.S. :D Did God not warn Cain if
he did good if would be well with him? Is that not free choice?
many other verses (IMO) pertaining to free will.
Therefore, the most rational values I can personally live by
must be based on the knowledge that, for me, what pleases me is
good, what pains me is sad. Those who please me or help me
avoid pain are my friends; those who pain me or keep me from my
pleasure are my enemies. Rationality requires that friends and
enemies be used in ways that maximize my pleasure and minimize
my pain. <----Haha, NO, selfish. Hardly...even in the secular
world there is a belief that with no pain there's no gain. It
is the only way to refine us and teach us. Without trials, we
all remain complacent and never grow, spiritually or even
carnally.
I AFFIRM that churches have no real use other than social
support,<--- I can partially agree with Churches having a
measure of milk...but, most of the mainline ones NEVER get their
sheep off the milk, and I can see the "social club" attitude
going on, even in my own local body.
...that there are no objective sins to commit or be forgiven
for, that there is no retribution for sin or reward for virtue
other than that which I can arrange, directly or through others.
<---- If we do not realize our sinfulness then, there cannot be
any asking for forgiveness, or repenting. I would say many
Christians might see it this way but, personally, I do not.
Virtue for me is getting what I want without being caught and
being punished by other. <--- How does one's behavior show high
moral standards if one just wants something other than a real
need...virtue to me means high moral standards and, even though
one might not believe God does not see what is done in secret,
HE DOES! lol.
I MAINTAIN that the death of the body is the death of the mind.
There is no afterlife and all hope of such is nonsense.<---I can
only hope this is not true as, it is not what I ever believed,
it would leave us hopeless! :O
Sorry Willie, if I did not do this correct. So, just let me
know what I'm missing :)
[/quote]What did you miss? Just about every single word of the
Professor's experiment. (SMHATTDDH) :(
#Post#: 13565--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: Ivor Date: March 26, 2020, 5:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Philosophy students meet in bars and spend hours discussing
whether they are there or not while looking down on those who
know they are and just get on with life
#Post#: 13569--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: Nancy Date: March 26, 2020, 6:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Willie T link=topic=855.msg13559#msg13559
date=1585256164]
What did you miss? Just about every single word of the
Professor's experiment. (SMHATTDDH) :(
[/quote]
Sorry, gave it my best. Too deep for me really. I am not
college edumacated &#128580;
#Post#: 13623--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: bbyrd009 Date: March 28, 2020, 2:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=mark link=topic=855.msg13545#msg13545
date=1585242415]
How many times have I heard that?[/quote]no idea, sorry
[quote]
It's like saying the best cure for liberty is reading the
Declaration of Independance.
Or the best cure for eating is reading a
cookbook.[/quote]obviously not, with all due respect
[quote]
What does that even mean?
Oh, only that . . . "the Christians have got it all wrong, I
know that, and you just need read the Bible and you'll be cured
of all your nonsense 'Christianity'." Right?
[/quote]so iow you knew what it meant before you
mischaracterized it, right? But essentially, yes, you will most
likely cease being a Mithraist/Cult of Sol adherent and begin
putting a toe on the path, is i think the gist, yes
#Post#: 13633--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: mark Date: March 28, 2020, 7:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bbyrd009 link=topic=855.msg13623#msg13623
date=1585424430]
no idea, sorryobviously not, with all due respectso iow you knew
what it meant before you mischaracterized it, right? But
essentially, yes, you will most likely cease being a
Mithraist/Cult of Sol adherent and begin putting a toe on the
path, is i think the gist, yes
[/quote]
How is that a mischaracterization? What's being
mischaracterized here so far as I can tell is Christianity. I
have a hard time imagining what "Christianity" even is to you.
Your presupposition I suppose is that everyone who disagrees
with you on this, or just me, is just wrong, and I don't read
the Bible, or know what it's saying, and you do.
I mean seriously, would you mind answering simply with a yes or
no, do you think there was a man, the one we call Jesus, a man
who is the Creator God, who lived and died and resurrected from
the dead, not in some theological mystical allegorical way, but
like a regular man, like the rest of us?
Did this man live without sinning? Rose from the dead, rose up
into the sky and disappeared? And in Him, in believing in Him
is life everlasting with the Creator God?
Isn't this what it means to be a Christian? To be reborn, not a
metaphor, not a new perspective, but new life, a new creation?
You wish to characterize Christianity as a sun god cult, this is
how I characterize it.
And yes, the hope of the resurrection. Which you characterize
as death more abundantly? With all due respect, that sure
sounds like nonsense to me. It's life more abundantly now, and
in the ages to come. I truly hope you find it.
Much love!
#Post#: 13640--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: bbyrd009 Date: March 29, 2020, 5:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=mark link=topic=855.msg13633#msg13633
date=1585442351]
How is that a mischaracterization? [/quote]arent the first two
obviously the opposite of the third?
[quote]
What's being mischaracterized here so far as I can tell is
Christianity. I have a hard time imagining what "Christianity"
even is to you.[/quote]my reply to that is that that might be bc
you are committed to death, more abundantly? Going up to heaven
to become an immortal after you have literally died?
[quote]
Your presupposition I suppose is that everyone who disagrees
with you on this, or just me, is just wrong, and I don't read
the Bible, or know what it's saying, and you do.[/quote]wadr it
isnt in code or anything; no one even has to understand the
naive dialectic to read plain english, eh?
No one has ever gone up to heaven,
There is only One Immortal
, and you and your sons will be here with me.
The kingdom of heaven is within you
[quote]
I mean seriously, would you mind answering simply with a yes or
no, do you think there was a man, the one we call Jesus, a man
who is the Creator God, who lived and died and resurrected from
the dead, not in some theological mystical allegorical way, but
like a regular man, like that he rest of us?[/quote]wadr what
does it matter what i think there? You think He was called
"Jesus" when i doubt that He would turn around if you hollered
that, yet i understand Whom you mean, right? Christ is spirit,
right? Wasnt Jesus a man, as you say?
So no, i do not believe that literal interpretation the same way
you likely do any more, but then i am no longer an adherent of
Death, More Abundantly either (i am in the Cult of Yah now i
guess)
[quote]
Did this man live without sinning? Rose from the dead, rose up
into the sky and disappeared? And in Him, in believing in Him
is life everlasting with the Creator God?
Isn't this what it means to be a Christian? To be reborn, not a
metaphor, not a new perspective, but new life, a new creation?
You wish to characterize Christianity as a sun god cult, this is
how I characterize it.
And yes, the hope of the resurrection. Which you characterize
as death more abundantly? With all due respect, that sure
sounds like nonsense to me. It's life more abundantly now, and
in the ages to come. I truly hope you find it.
[/quote]Yes mjr I�m sure you do thank you
#Post#: 13647--------------------------------------------------
Re: A &quot;&quot;Belief Experiment (If you think you can handle
it)
By: bbyrd009 Date: March 29, 2020, 8:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
"Rose from the dead, rose up into the sky and disappeared?"
ah well "you will see Him come down the same way they saw Him go
up," right?
lol
"not in some theological mystical allegorical way, but like a
regular man, like the rest of us?"
moreso than you would likely be willing to admit right now, yes;
I said "you are elohim"
"Did this man live without sinning?"
well, all depends upon whom you ask i guess huh
"And in Him, in believing in Him is life everlasting with the
Creator God?"
well imo it is never going to end, if thats what you mean, it is
"eternal," by which i do not mean forever in your ego's case,
sorry; i mean the Scriptural "eternal," "a space of time, an
age"
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