SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 19-JUL-92 FILE: UFO2971
********* New Age Forum 19-Jul-92 15:51:21
R1: *SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1)
David/Moderator: Welcome George, OK, now for the rules, please pay
| attention there will be a test! .....
| I'm the Moderator, the big boss here <g>, if you have a
| question then send a ?, if you have a comment send a !, I will
| call on....
| each of you in turn. DO NOT interrupt the person speaking
| until they are finished. Also....
| While you are typeing, at the end of your message send a set of
| elipse like.... so we know your still talking....
| When you are finished end your message with a GA, which mean go
| ahead...
| An questions?
MIKE HART: No
David/the other 1: ok
Teri Wheeler: ok
David/Moderator: Oh, by the way, when your called on please send like an
| ok..., so we know that your typing your message. Got it?
| Ready to go? ga
David/the other 1: ?
David/Moderator: David > ga
David/the other 1: ok...
TIM GORDON: g
David/the other 1: There's been some rethinking over Conference meeting
| day/times? Is there a preference...
Ron | I'm ready to go GA
GEORGE D. HOPPER: ready
David/the other 1: Sundays are good for me but most evenings (cept
| wednesdays) are alright...GA
Jason Reed: !
David/Moderator: Jason > ga
Jason Reed: ok...
| later in the day would be better for me GA
Jeff Morrow: !
David/Moderator: Has anybody got any preferances as to day and times? ga
| Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok...
| Being on the west coast, I would like a later time, if
| possible...
GEORGE D. HOPPER: !
Ron | !
Jeff Morrow: I know this may not be convenient for the people on the east
| coast, so i'm flexible....
| Sundays are ok with me. GA
David/Moderator: George > GA
GEORGE D. HOPPER: Im flexiable also GA
David/Moderator: Ron > GA
Ron | ok...
| Either earlier OR later is OK, but earlier would be better...
| I am on the East Coast. GA
David/Moderator: Ok....
| I would suggest that everybody send me a message as to what
| date/times you prefer, then I'll work it out from there. Sound
| ok? ga
Joe Balsamo: David
Jeff Morrow: <ok>
Ron | <ok>
MIKE HART: !GReat
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > ga
GEORGE D. HOPPER: ok
Teri Wheeler: ok
Joe Balsamo: What is the currently agreed upon time that everyone is
| saying OK to?
David/Moderator: Nothing yet, we were discuss this date and time, any
| suggestions from your end? ga
Joe Balsamo: It's 2:00 right now, right in the middle of the day for
| me...I don't know...Of course I may not be in touch again 'till
| mid August!
David/Moderator: Planning on leaving for somewhere, say Cygnius 5? ga
Joe Balsamo: Atlanta
Jeff Morrow: <yhay's close>
David/the other 1: ?
David/Moderator: Ahhh yes, of course, forgive me! Ok lets get started
| folks....
Jeff Morrow: >yhay's = that's>
David/Moderator: David > ga
David/the other 1: ok...
| Two questions. Did I see a posting that a software package had
| been found...
| ...for the newsletter? Also how was the conference...thumbnail
| sketch...GA
David/Moderator: Well...
| I did find a software package for the newsletter that works on
| the PC, it is excellant, and FREE!!!! As for the symposium....
| I thought it was great. I learned a lot and met alot of nice
| people. It did get dry though in places....
| Joe, you have anything you want to say about it> Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: OK...
| The symposium was excellent. I learned much from Stan Friedman
| who is an expert on the Corona crash and the MJ-12 papers...
| also, the info on the 14 witnessed abduction presented by Budd
| Hopkins is going to, IMHO, make or break UFOlogy...finally, the
| stuff on the mr. Ed Walters case presented by Jeff...
| ntating as well. ga
David/the other 1: ?
David/Moderator: Anyone have any specific questions about the symposium?
| David > ga
David/the other 1: ok...
| How was the database idea rcvd?
David/Moderator: Well, from those I talked with they liked the idea,
| though I did not have the chance to talk to Friedman or
| anyone....
| else big about it. Joe did you mention it to anyone? Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: David...
| No, I didn't think that it was my place, you being the official
| rep for the New Age/UFOlogy section. ga
David/Moderator: Ok... but now your a big wig too! <g> .....
| I was thinking, everybody, of drafting a letter up that we
| could send, as a group, to the UFO organizations, and to ....
| researchers like Hopkins, Vallee, Friedman, etc., explaing what
| we're doing and trying to get there supports. Any comments? ga
GEORGE D. HOPPER: ?
David/the other 1: !
David/Moderator: George > ga
Jeff Morrow: !
GEORGE D. HOPPER: Yeah...I think you may get some flake...other ufo
| organizations arent very co-operative...as a rule. ga
David/Moderator: Good point...
| David > ga
Ron | ?
David/the other 1: ok...still a good idea...At the very least it
| documents attempts and responses.
| ...ga
David/Moderator: Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok...
| I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute here (groans from
| all)...
| Before we can ask for help or information from other parties...
| we have to decide what it is we are doing with this project....
| I'm in favor of trying to increase the amount of KNOWLEDGE
| about the UFO...
David/the other 1: !
Jeff Morrow: phenomena, not just keep a large catalog of rehashed data.
| Having said that, it is no small matter...
| to address the mechanics of putting that formula in place. I
| think the...
| kind of things Jason has been doing with the K2 reports is
| going...
| in the right direction. Comments? GA
David/Moderator: Well...
| I like the fact that Vallee mentioned in his paper for the
| symposium how a UFO database should be formed, and Ron here....
MIKE HART: !
David/Moderator: has made some interesting comments as well. What we
| need, what all UFO researchers need, is a central point from
| which they...
| can gather and input data...
| Ron > ga
Ron | ok...
| My turn on the soapbox!...
| I think that two issues need to be addressed right away...
| (1) Who will use it, i.e., who are the targeted users...
| (2) What are the information sources
| ...
| ga
Jeff Morrow: !
Jason Reed: !
Ron | !
David/Moderator: David > ga
David/the other 1: I pass my comment to Mike. Gotta mull this a bit.
| ga
David/Moderator: Mike > ga
MIKE HART: ok...
| I think that everyone agrees that a database you have been
| talking...
| about is a great idea and you should, we should all lend our
| support...
| just keep in mind that you need to push the issue with all
| the...
| parties interested as I have seen, for 10 years now, this
| idea...
| discussed in the usual circles, with no results...ga
David/Moderator: Mike...
| Thanks for the support, and you are very correct in what your
| saying!...
| Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok...
| I agree that Ron has two very valid points. The information
| sources...
| is an issue that must be addressed before anything else. I
| think that...
| much of the information available today is not information in
| the...
| sense that it provides no verifyable evidence, or testable
| claims....
| How do we sort that issue out with the resources we have. I
| think...
| collectively we have the intelligence, but what about the time
| and ...
| financial resources. Once we have sorted out the data source
| problem...
| it will be more clear who can benefit from this data. GA
David/Moderator: Jason > ga
Jason Reed: One thing...do *we* have the resources and manpower to do a
| good ...
| job with both a NL and a dbase or should we concentrate on
| one...
| and make sure we do it right...thoughts? GA
Deb Carlen: !
David/Moderator: Jason,
| Good point, IMHO I would think the database would take
| priority, but I am open to suggestions....
| Ron > ga
Ron | ok... I lost my train of thought since the subject has changed
| some...
| We need to pin down the following:
| 1. Who will use it
| 2. what will they use it for and how
| 3. Where does the information come from
| 4. And how will the informaiton be selected (i.e. EVERYTHING or
| just...
| some specific things...
| ...
| From my point of view, as a serious UFO skeptic, I would
| benefit greeatlly....
| from having a sort of quick & easy reference library...
Teri Wheeler: I
Ron | maybe not necessarily a case-by-case database.
| ...
| Maybe the database should be thought of as a catalog of sourts.
| GA
David/Moderator: Deb > ga,,,, Ron I'll get mack with you in a sec.
Deb Carlen: Just wanted to say that we missed youat the NL seminar in St.
| Louis ga
David/Moderator: Nobody called me about it! hint hint!
Deb Carlen: Hmmmm. Thought I gave you the date and time at the last
| CO...?
David/Moderator: About the database and Ron's comments....
| Who will use it? Anybody interested, including serious UFO
| researchers...
| What is it for...To have in one place all UFO evidence, instead
| of it being spread out over such a large area, AND...
| for once to have ALL the evidence available for people to
| puruse...
Ron | !
Jeff Morrow: !
David/Moderator: Where will it come from, that's a good questions...How
| is it selected, another good question....
| Ron > ga
Ron | ok... Good long range goal, indeed...
| But, as i have been finding in going through some online
| searches...
| lately, there are MASSIVE amounts of data...
| The question really is WHERE DO WE START ? GA
David/Moderator: That's why we're here! Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok..
| Well, where do we start? Do we go to MUFON and say *Excuse me
| guys,...
| we are a group of people on Compuserve who want to get this UFO
| data ...
Ron | !
Jeff Morrow: sorted out, would you please give us a copy of all your
| files?...
| We then wait until a truck backs up at our collective door and
| dumps this stuff?...
| How do we start? Is there some way we can begin to gather data
| independent...
| of the other sources, in case they are slow or reluctant to
| cooperate? GA
David/Moderator: Ok...
| I thought along the same lines, let us collect independant data
| and inlcude into a database, while working with the MUFON and...
| the others....
| Deb > ga
Deb Carlen: Nothing from here. Must've been an earlier !
David/Moderator: OK....Ron > ga
Ron | Comment request withdrawn, i need to think a little more GA
David/Moderator: Ok.. now MY turn!!....
| All UFO organizations, including MUFON and CUFOS have there own
| extensive UFO computer databases....
Ron | ?
David/Moderator: the problem is they don't allow most people to access
| them, or they charge a 'nominal' fee. What is needed, as
| Vallee pointed out...
| is a central clearing house sort of, where ALL this data can be
| gathered into one place. Its time to start sharing...
| and I think that as a group we can get it all started!....
| Ron > ga
Ron | Would it be possible to have a "gateway" from CIS into the
| MUFON and
| CUFOS databases. A subscription, if you want to callit that? GA
David/Moderator: Yes...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: sortof, we can set up a gateway, easily done, but like
| CUFOS they charge like $1500 to access there system....
| as for MUFON, they won't get back with me on any details,
| excpet they said that if I submit a formal request for...
| information, they will search their systems for it....
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: OK...
| Where is the money going to come from for this? Even
| incidental expenses such as copies, searches, phone calls, etc.
| etc. This is
| why CUFOS and MUFON charge money...
| onest with you, unless we really pare this thing down, it's
| just not practical, IMHO. ga
Ron | !
David/Moderator: Ron > ga
Ron | ok...
| Joes got a good point...
| Is it practical or possible to ask for sort of a "shareware"
| fee for
| downloading of data from the libraries, or does that only work
| for software. GA
David/Moderator: Ok...
| I suppose a shareware fee system could be set up, maybe, but
| will the cost be at first? I mean if we all took what
| information...
Ron | !
David/Moderator: each of uses, and put that in the DB, it would take
| awhile for that to all get setup, later on then the money issue
| may come ...
| into play, but I don't see how it really does right now.
| Comments? ga
| Ron > ga
Jeff Morrow: !
Ron | I also wanted to agree with Joe on "paring it down" at first...
| It looks like there's likely to only be at most 5 or 6 people...
Deb Carlen: !!!
Ron | working on this thing at first ....
| ga
David/Moderator: Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok...
| I think the money issue has to be adressed at the sta
| [C
| rt...
| If we are going to acquire data, it is going to cost us. Do we
| know how much?...
| If we want to get going, we are going to need some form of
| capital or other...
| financing, or else we are going to be really limited in what we
| can...
| accomplish. If we cannot meet the other UFO organizations on
| some sort...
| of equal footing when we ask for help or data, we are going to
| be really...
| limited in the amount of clout we can weild. GA
David/Moderator: Point taken....
| but I think that if really start on the thing and get people to
| see that we are serious, and really TRYING to do something....
| then they will fall in later and help us out. Especially if we
| can get Vallee or Friedman on out side!...
| Deb > ga
Deb Carlen: Excuse my barging in from the business point of view but PR
| and articles/infor regarding your efforts re DB will generate
| costs, and all
Jeff Morrow: !
Ron | !
Deb Carlen: the people here will have online costs if hthey help you
| (sorry msg got cut off) GA
| !
| Get a grant or other funding now and you'll have enormouly more
| credibility.
David/Moderator: Thats true Deb, let me think that one over a sec....
| Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok...
| I think we have started in a manner of speaking. Kason has
| taken this K2...
| thing through a logical progression. He has seen a report
| alleging certain...
| things, and has investigated them. One thing he has uncovered,
| is the...
| NASA heliport. This has added to our knowledge, and perhaps
| ultimately...
| to the explanation of activity in that area. In any event, we
| now know...
| more about K2 than we did. This series of reports and
| investigations...
| can form the first bit of available data in the database.
| Comments? GA
David/Moderator: Excellant!....
| We have started, in a way, now lets take it a step further
| though and put it in a form besides just messages!....
MIKE HART: !
Jeff Morrow: <sorry Jason, Imispelled your name>
David/Moderator: AND, set it up in such a way so as other information,
| other research can be added!...
| Ron > ga
Jeff Morrow: <great!>
Ron | ok... I think we're looking at a spare-time, voluntary effort
| for the foreseable future, until we have a "proof of concept"...
MIKE HART: Z
Ron | and that means a concept... Jeff is onto something and it kind
| of
| goes back to what I said earlier about creating a depository of
| reference resources, and using an online DB to catalog the
| holding...
| I have to dissapear for about 5 mintues, but will be back GA
David/Moderator: Deb > ga
Jason Reed: ?
Deb Carlen: That's it from me. Enjoyed it guys. Good luck.
David/Moderator: Thanks for joining us! Mike/Irene > ga
IRENE HART: Sorry my call waiting cut me off GA all...
David/Moderator: Jason > GA
Jason Reed: is the db a complete reference in itself or an index to other
| files...
| that contain more complete references? ga
Joe Balsamo: !
| !
David/Moderator: Jason,...
| I was thinking a index of sorts, with limited descriptions,
| that would point the way to other more detailed files and/or
| sources....
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: Pass, you answered what I was going to say.
David/Moderator: Ok...
Tony | HELLO! Just came back from Convocation! Fully charged!
David/Moderator: Mike have you got anything you'd like to add about all
| this? ga
Mike | ok...
| Yes, not to change the subject you are discussing, but I have
| to leave and...
| I will be in contact with you later as I am a professional fund
| raiser...
| and will start a project, if you desire to raise some capital
| for this DB...
| Please get back to me about later on tonight or when
| convenient...Mike GA
David/Moderator: Thank Mike, will DO!!!!
| Anybody else? ga
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: OK...
| Have we come to any kind of decision, yet, as to what we are
| going to do, specifically? IF so, perhaps we should divide up
| the
| work...
Ron | !
Joe Balsamo: ind of from the old school of plan the work, divide and
| conquer, then work the plan. GA
David/Moderator: Ron > ga
Ron | ok...
| I am collecting data, of sorts, already, that you and joe
| already ...
| know about. It's not a database of UFO sightings, but I'd
| describe...
| it as building a collection of reference resources....
| basically in the same manner in which I approach things I do...
| professionally.
| ...
| For example, the book list. After that, I plan to compile a
| bibliography of government reports (if any) and ...
| a list of UFO periodicals and magazines...
| ...
| It's too early, from a "research" point of view, to start
| building
| a case database...
| except as a prototype to show to prospective financers...
| ....
| What I don't know is what I should do with all that stuff. GA
David/Moderator: Well...
| I think the data you are gathering right now would be very
| valuable to others when it is finished. As for the database...
| well is it not feasible for each of us to transcribe on the
| computer what case information we each have...
| i.e. books, peridicals, journals, and basically start things
| from there? ga
| Anybody?
Ron | !
David/Moderator: Ron > ga
Jeff Morrow: !
Ron | Ok... It's a place to start. We got to start somewhere until
| we...
| can flesh out a viable concept...
| I will have further comments in a moment, but need to think a
| few minutes first GA
David/Moderator: Jeff > ga
Jeff Morrow: ok..
Joe Balsamo: !
Jeff Morrow: I have to go in a moment, but if there is anything I can do
| to assist in the preparation...
Ron | !
Jeff Morrow: of the database structure, please let me know. I have
| fairly substabntial computer resources, and programming...
| knowledge in a number of languages (C, C++, FORTRAN, Lisp, SQL,
| Actor)....
| I will be away for about a week, and will give this more
| thought. If you ...
| don't hear from me after that you will know the rattlesnakes
| got me. GA
David/Moderator: Thanks Jeff..
Jason Reed: bye jeff
David/Moderator: I will keep you posted on what happens and what we
| decide, I appreciate your help and support!...
| Joe > ga
Jeff Morrow: <thanks guys, Bye>
Joe Balsamo: OK, I have several comments and suggestions, so bear with
| me...
David/Moderator: Bye
Joe Balsamo: First, i think that we need to start really organizing these
| COs to take better advantage of the time. We need to come up
| with an
| agenda and we need to stick to it and try and get some things
| accomplished...
| Secondly, it is impossible, for you, David, to do all of this
| yourself. You need to start being a deligator of tasks and not
| try
| and accomplish everything yourself...
| ON the database itself, I agree with what has been said, we
| need to decide WHAT it is for and WHO will use it, as Ron
| stated...
| it is a terrible waste of everyone's good time and money to
| simply *do* a database for the sake of doing one. Let's really
| pin
| down what it is going to be used for. What types of
| statistical correlations are we interested in...
| what trends are we looking for, what hypotheses are we
| attempting to test...
| Finally, we really need to narrow down a small subset of data
| and go after that. NOT based on what books people happen to
| own, but
| really try and fit our data collection into what we are trying
| to accomplish...
| the computer part is going to be the EASIEST part of all.
| Deciding what the purpose of the project, the general thesis if
| you
| will, is where the work is going to come in. GA Ron
Ron | ok...this might take a page or two ...
| Oh, BTW, is it my turn, David ?
| GA
David/Moderator: Yes, ga
Ron | thank you...
| I dearly would love to be able to get my hands on a
| comprehesive UFO...
| database, but it seems that it is not practical to go through
| MUFON or...
| CUFOS for that. Financially practical. ...
| SO, build our own...
| But, as I said before, there are huge amounts of data to deal
| with...
| and it will take years for just 5 or 6 people to get it to a
| useful...
| point working in spare time on a volunteer basis...
| ...
| I think that we start small, but keep future growth in mind...
| ...
| For the foreseeable future...
| the WHO is going to amount to Forum users. Regulars, temps, and
| visitors...
| Maybe 3 dozen people in all.
| But, as word gets around and as the collection grows, more
| people should start using it. I think we have to start building
| a reference
| collection and see what happens. What kind of access rates we
| get.
| ....
| The WHAT is probably, at first, going to be the typical sorts
| of ...
| forum uses. ...
| Specifically, it seems to occur rather frequently that someone
| new
| comes in (remember, I'm new myself, basically)...
| and wants to argue a case, or insists on having references at
| hand...
| Joe- you remember *****... (deleted by moderator)
| SO, the "hot" issues are going to be the current ones...
Joe Balsamo: <smile>
Jason Reed: !
Ron | And that leads back to Jeff's point earlier about reports on...
| current cases...
| I'm monopolizing, so GA and I'll continue later..GA
David/Moderator: Jason > ga
Jason Reed: Sorry, but I've got to go...catch you all in the forums.
David/Moderator: Glad you could make it Jason, keep in touch!
Teri Wheeler: !
David/Moderator: Teri > ga
Teri Wheeler: I have to go also, but wanted to let you know that you have
| my
Joe Balsamo: !
Teri Wheeler: support...even if I am new! I'm not sure what I have to
| offer, but I
| ...would be glad to help. Bye for now. ga
Joe Balsamo: bye
David/Moderator: Teri, thanks for your support, and I'm glad your
| interested. Keep an eye on the messages and I'll see you later!
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: Yes...
| Actually, I need to get going as well, perhaps we should
| continue this discussion next week...
| Is there any thing we can do or talk about to kind of close
| this meeting in a manner that we can be thinking about for next
| time? ga
Ron | !
David/Moderator: Ron, any suggestions from you? ga
Ron | yes...
| I was leading up to the following proposal:...
| As "hot" topics occur, someone (or anyone) uploads a short...
| document with the facts and references...
| Those will eventually form a foundation for a comprehensive
| DB...
| and in the meantime, they can be cataloged...
| In effect, I think I'm talking about a newsletter, that is
| cataloged...
| and eventually turns into a database. GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: So perhaps we should work with the newsletter first,
| then expand out later? Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: As a start, I think that is an excellent idea and much more
| 'doable' at this time...
Ron | !
Joe Balsamo: I think that what Ron is saying is that we'd have a master
| index that would crossreference to individual articles...
| for example, this Don Ecker video deal. Someone could have
| uploaded a short paper on what it was all about, and it would
| be
| cataloged in the index. ga
David/Moderator: Ron > ga
Ron | Yes... Joe caught my idea....
| David, I think with Joe gone, you and I are the only one's
| left...
Joe Balsamo: I'm still here, but I need to get going
Ron | SO, we have lots of things to think about for next CO. I'd
| suggest...
Ron | having one NEXT SUNDAY to keep things moving...I am done, if we
| have to clear out of here now. GA
David/Moderator: Alright, everyone think on whats been said, we'll
| message with each other this week, and meet back here next
| Sunday...OK?
Ron | OK
Joe Balsamo: ok
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