SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 07-JUN-92 FILE: UFO2963
*********** New Age Forum 07-Jun-92 16:53:12
R1: *SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1)
Joe Balsamo: Hello
David/Moderator: Hello
Joe Balsamo: I'm starting to feel lonely, Dave, we are the only ones here!
David/Moderator: No prblem, Peter Baitz promised he'd be here!
Joe Balsamo: Whoops! My Smart Alarms just told me it's time for the UFO
| CO!!!
David/Moderator: We still got 5 minutes anyway.
| And here's Rilla!
Joe Balsamo: Hmm...my clock must be fast
David/Moderator: I hope you got your suit and tie on, this is a formal CO
| you know!
Joe Balsamo: Ahh, so it is (starting to feel less lonely already:-) )
| Suit...suit, heck, I've got on my Tux!
David/Moderator: I hope Peter makes it alright, he's never been in a CO
| before and may have trouble. He using the old command mode way
| of doing
| things.
| Peter be here!!!!!!
Joe Balsamo: Well, I can see everyone that just enters the forum on MAC
| CIM, so we can always give him instructions
| HHello Peter
Peter Baitz: Hello
Joe Balsamo: Hello Dennis
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Hello all, what's happening?
David/Moderator: Welcome Peter, gald you could make it!
Peter Baitz: I am too!
David/Moderator: We have 3 minutes will CO time, so we're waiting.
Joe Balsamo: Looks like we are going to have a nice CO today!
David/Moderator: Its about time!
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Dave, I didn't know there was a CO, saw the crowd
| and thought to drop in... ;)
| What's the CO on?
David/Moderator: Well, heck Welcome anyway! Neil forgot to post the News
| flash for me!
| The CO is on UFO's!
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Oh, ok.
David/Moderator: Still interesting I hope?
Joe Balsamo: Dennis, we'd really appreciate it if you'd hang with us for
| at least a little while
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Sure, don't know how long I will be able to hang
| around, but will see what's going on.
David/Moderator: Good enough, Peter you still out there? Having any
| trouble?
Dennis Mahlmeister/: I have a friend that swears that there is a room in
| her house that people
Peter Baitz: New he!I am here. I understand we may talk of the database
| also?
Dennis Mahlmeister/: have been abducted from by UFO's and when they are
| brought back they have...
David/Moderator: Yes, and the UFO Shuttle video as well.
Dennis Mahlmeister/: a splitting headache and marks on their necks.
David/Moderator: Dennis, does you friend of CIS access?
| I mean 'have CIS access"
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Not usually, but I could go over there one day and
| log on from her house...
| and let her use my account. She does have the equipment.
David/Moderator: It would be interesting to perhaps have them join a CO
| of ours, and just tell us about here story.
Joe Balsamo: That would be fantastic.
Dennis Mahlmeister/: I will see what I can do, she is a very private type
| and is worried that if...
David/Moderator: If need be, I could arrange a one time, free account for
| here to use for a temporary time. Would that be better?
Dennis Mahlmeister/: her neighbors found out that they would get violent.
| There is a lot of Klan
| activity out where she lives.
Joe Balsamo: She could remain totally anonymous.
David/Moderator: She wouldn't have to use her own name.
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Dave, either way would be ok, I have to talk with
| her tho to see what happens.
Joe Balsamo: Dave, do you think we ought to start, or wait a bit longer
| for more to show?
David/Moderator: Good enought Dennis, let me know what she says. Are we
| all ready to begin?
Peter Baitz: !!
Joe Balsamo: Yup
David/Moderator: Peter, you have something to say?
Peter Baitz: TryinTJust trying to get used to this! I'm using DOS
| commands
| Not you interface,
| ok
| Who all is out there?
| Hello?
David/Moderator: We'll still here
Joe Balsamo: I think we lost Peter
David/Moderator: Peter you still out there?
Dennis Mahlmeister/: Nope, Peter is still here
User 4 | Hello- I'm back- seem yoYes. Seem to have gotten kicked out.
| Can you read my entries?
David/Moderator: What happened to your name Peter?
User 4 | I do not know.
| I see David and Joe.
David/Moderator: No problem, I can figure it out! Ok people if we're
| ready I'm going to start....anything else?
Joe Balsamo: Well, I count four of us here, that may be the group for
| today.
David/Moderator: Good enough, time to start now....
| First a brief synopsis of the rules....
| In this formal conference I will be the moderator and will keep
| track of whose turn it is to speak.....
| PLEASE don't interrupt the person speaking until it is your
| turn...
| when you have a question type a ?, if you have a comment type a
| !,
| I will then call your name in turn. As you type, please end
| each of your lines with ..., so we know that your still talking.
| When you have finished talking, at the end of your last line
| add GA, so mean Go Head, so we know to continue.
| Does everyone understand?...ga
Dennis Mahlmeister/: aye
User 4 | Yes. GA
Joe Balsamo: yup
David/Moderator: OK....
| the primary part of this CO is about the UFO database, then we
| will discuss the UFO Shuttle video as seen on.....
| Hards Copy the other day.
| Does everyone have a basic understanding of the UFO database?
User 4 | ?
David/Moderator: GA Peter
User 4 | I read about it briefly in the last CO. Perhaps a 1-liner
| would help...,
| begin this. GA
David/Moderator: OK...
| The basic idea here is to design and implement a international
| UFO database, using this Forum as its home base...
| this database will contain ALL information about UFO research,
| i.e. sightings, abductions, theories, work, evidence, alien
| contact,
| just about everything that can be added...Does that explain
| things pretty well?
User 4 | ?
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | This would be a down/uploadable info-base for various computers
| or
| something online.GA
David/Moderator: At first it would be a downloadable database system
| yes...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: eventually we will hopefully be able to go to an online
| system, at least we hope so....
| The only people really uploading to the database would be those
| make contributions to the database, and then
| only a select few would be able to upload a revised copy, to
| keep from having multiple copies of the database....
| sitting out in the File base....
| Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: Thanks...I think that Dave covered it pretty well, but as I
| see it, there are two major objectives...
| First we need to actually gather data. Design some kind of
| form that people can download and fill out in regards to their
| sightings...
User 4 | ?
Joe Balsamo: Secondly, we need to actually come up with a database system
| that allows search criteria, reporting, etc. etc. At this stage
| of the
| game, we are still designing everything...
| ust trying to get a solid group of volunteers. GA
David/Moderator: If I may add...
| we also want to encourage people to upload to us any private
| research they themselves may have done....
| Peter > GA
User 4 | For the database, is an existing package to be used or are you
| doing...,
| some program for it like Dataflex , etc. or QBASIC...., C?
| GA
David/Moderator: Good point...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: We're hashing it out, thats why we're here (hehe), we
| NEED to make it available for as many different comptuer types
| as possible...
| Does anybody have any suggestions?
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Hang on a sec Peter, its Joes' turn, Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I was going to say pretty much what you said. This is only
| the 2nd CO ever, so the most important thing is to get the core
| group
| of solid volunteers...
| then we can decide from there. GA
David/Moderator: OK Peter > GA
User 4 | Didn't mean to stomp on Joe. Most IBM computers with DOS have
| BASIC...,
| available. Programmers and "normal" people. GA
David/Moderator: True...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: but do we really want to program up a private systems of
| our own? Then, what about MAC's, and Apples' and so forth?
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I would suggest that we consider using FoxPro. It runs on
| both Macs and PCs and we can compile EXEs with it...
| so noone really has to have the native language itself. GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | That sounds fine. I am not familiar with Apples. Can they use
| ACSII data? GA
David/Moderator: OK...
Joe Balsamo: Yes
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: JOE, you spoke outta turn, nasty nasty!
| Peter > GA
Joe Balsamo: ...whoops
User 4 | So if IBSo if IBM and Apples use ASCII data, even if FoxPro is
| not used...,
| a max of two programs would need to be written for the two OSs
| GA
David/Moderator: OK...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: What about the deal of having a comma delimited ASCII
| file, then we could include a record layout so that others
| could then just import it into there favorite db package....
| Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: Actually, David, I think your idea is valid. IF we
| structure the data properly, then people can use whatever
| package they want for
| analysis. GA
David/Moderator: Peter, what do you think of that ideas? GA
User 4 | I think this is fine. Otherwise people may dislike "our"
| database...,
| and resort to their own package anyway. GA
David/Moderator: Good point...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: besides I think we're all programmers here, and I don't
| know if we could write something for Apples, Ataris's and all
| the others.
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: It would definetly be a full time job just in
| itself.....Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I think we need to concentrate our efforts on the structure,
| gathering and verification of the data itself...
| this is going to be the bulk of making this a viable project.
| GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | I think creating the structure is the best start. Also, side
| point...,
| Novell Networks for one allow sharing of ASCII between IBM and
| Apples. GA
David/Moderator: Good point...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: another thing I'd like to add, we must establish a group
| of people we can all rely on to do their part,...
| Joe and I have pretty much agreed to give whatever time we
| have, to doing this thing. Can we count on you to help out
| Peter?....
| Joe, a sec, Peter > GA
User 4 | Yessir!!
| GA
David/Moderator: Excellent, Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I was going to suggest that one way we can use to get an
| idea of the structure is to analyze any current collections of
| data...
| such as those held by MUFON, CUFOS, Hopkins, or whomever. From
| there, we can use their ideas and meld them with our own to
| come up
| with a format. GA
David/Moderator: Good point...
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: but I also think we should start working on our own
| format, until, and if, we find anything out from those
| people....
| Peter > GA
User 4 | I have just (really) recently begun with this UFO stuff. I
| have always read...
| up, etc... So I am not aware of the various organizations ...,
| I have heard of some, but do not really know them nor their
| formats for...
| investgation and databases. I would look into this. GA
David/Moderator: Your not alone....
| All UFO researchers, and organizations, have there own
| databases, but the problem is that ordinary people...,
| like ourselves, don't have access to them. This db would be
| availble to everyone and anyone....
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: but I am not so if these other UFO researchers are going
| to be of much help to us!
| Peter > GA
User 4 | So, most of these organizations would not be willing to work
| with CIS...,
| or us to import some of their info. GA
David/Moderator: I don't know, Joe what do you think? Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: Well, I have not explored it fully yet...
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: I have contacted MUFON, a group I belong to, and have not
| heard back from them yet. I have also gotten involved with a
| local...
| group called ORION that is by invitation only...if I am
| accepted into the group, I will see if they can be of help...
| they have many members involved in all of the BIG UFO
| organizations. GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | There is a upload of 3(?) test files containing addresses of
| some pages...,
| worth of groups. Perhaps any # of there. Letters, contacts,
| etc.GA
| Of these...
David/Moderator: I have some addresses and phone #'s as well..
| I was contacted by the local MUFON director last night, about a
| letter I sent him in regard to this db idea,
| he said it was indeed interesting, but also said he wasn't sure
| if MUFON would like to really 'contribute to it very much".. So
| I don't know....
| Joe, any thoughts > GA
Joe Balsamo: This is the problem with these UFO groups...
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: there seems to be a lot of infighting, back biting and
| information hiding...Not everyone, but just enough that it
| makes this kind
| of research very difficult to say the least. GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | Do we have access to government reports of any kind , etc. Just
| to start...,
| the database. GA
David/Moderator: Peter...
| we have documents gained from the government through the
| Freedom of Infomration Request, and Joe and I both....
| have some extensive data of our own with which we could 'seed'
| the database....
| The biggest worry that bother me is all the other Projects I've
| seen that have fallen by the wayside becuase of stuff that....
| Joe mentioned before, the back biting and so forth, that is why
| I've got the feeling that we should start working....
| on our own system, and then if these other groups want to help,
| or contribute, we can always 'modify' our layout a little bit...
| I'd just hate to see this thing get tied up in 'Red Tape'...
| GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I think that at this time, it might be good to discuss some
| goals and try and have a plan of action by our next CO....
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: So far, the only people we have comitted to do work are the
| 3 of us, so I don't know if we should just take the ball and
| run or get
| more involved, what do you guys think? GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | We will probably break this work up.... Perhaps we can come up
| with some
| topics and assign some research for next CO. IE. Each topic
| ...,
| broken into a datastructure. GA
David/Moderator: Joe, comments? > GA
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: That sounds fine to me...
| do you think we should each come up with a form that might be
| useful or what? GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | We could all work on some heading related but seperate and add
| them...,
| together or all come up with a complete datastructure and
| compare notes...,
| by uploading each others work. Hmmm. GA
David/Moderator: Not a bad idea...
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: In fact a pretty good idea, each of us could come up
| with his own idea of the structure of the thing, ...
| and then we could compare notes. Peter > GA
User 4 | Since you two seem to be a little more advanced in this, maybe
| we can...,
| throw around some ideas for this... make a sketch.GA
David/Moderator: Good for me...
| Let me give you an idea of my personal database I use at home...
User 4 | !!
David/Moderator: ................Peter > GA
User 4 | I just want to make sure I can get a copy of this for review. GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: I think that Peter's idea is good. We should each come up
| with our own database form, upload it or whatever, and then
| next CO, we
| can synthesize something from that...
| ps we should make a gerneral request of the entire forum via
| NEWS or whatever and get other ideas as well. GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | I think getting info from others is good to, but a final
| date...,
| may be necessary to get it moving. We should also have a
| general...,
| sketch of what we are looking for - maybe an outline of records
| and...,
| fields. GA
David/Moderator: Peter,...
| as for getting a copy of this CO, Joe and I are recording it,
| and one of us will upload a transcript of it either later
| tonight,...
| or tomorrow, so you'll be able to download it from the file
| section....
| Anyway....Joe comments > GA
Joe Balsamo: Well, first off, I think the idea of a deadline is a good
| one. It should be a few days before the next CO so we can be
| prepared to
| discuss the various formats...
| ou think we should schedule our next CO? GA
David/Moderator: Good idea, do yopu think 2 weeks from now would give us
| enough time to compile together some data....anyone > GA
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | Sounds fine - 2 wks. Shall we sketch it out, what you all
| think? GA
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: 2 weeks is good for me...and, what, 'couple days before that
| the deadline for the submission of ideas for the database
| format?...
| Perhaps you can get Neil to post this in the proper place. GA
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | 2 weeks is ok for me - let me know the exact date. I was going
| to...,
| kid Joe he is watching Star Trek or something. GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I was just going to let peter in on my secret...I'm actually
| soliciting for contributors to this meeting! GA
David/Moderator: Joe is being a biut bothersome to others!
| OK....
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Why don't we say this, I'll act as central point here,
| you and Joe, upload and send any messages or files about
| this....
| thing directly to me, I will then forward them on to the other
| in involved. We can do this via E-mail directly to each....
| other instead of cluttering up the FIle base here......
| Peter > GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | So you would like us to find some ...I am unclear as to how you
| will conduct the search for others ideas.GA
David/Moderator: First...
| I think we're talking about each of us working out his own idea
| as to the structure to this database.....Joe > GA
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: David, what I would also suggest is you (being the big
| kahuna and all :)) draft a little blurb for Neil to post...
| This blurb would basically explain the db idea and ask for
| group submissions to your PIN that would be the db description,
| the form
| if you will.
| ga
David/Moderator: Good enough............Peter > GA
User 4 | Ok. So Joe, myself and David will upload our own data-structure
| ideas...,
| to David, and this pending post for Neil will allow others to
| ...,
| upload theirs to David, all due a couple days befor the next
| CO...,
| at whuich time it will all come together. GA
David/Moderator: Yes....
| I will draft a little *blurb* and see if I can talk Neil into
| posting into the New Flash, asking each for there ideas on .....
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: how to basically structure this thing. In the mean
| time, you and Joe, will upload your ideas directly to me, via
| E-mail...
| Peter > GA
User 4 | I don't know about u guys, but I hate news blurbs unless they
| are really...
| interesting looking...maybe because I use DOS and not the
| interfaces u ...,
| use. It should be really eye attacting. GA
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: Peter makes a good point, perhaps we should ask Neil if
| there is any other method of letting users know what's going
| on...BTW,
| Peter, you may want to d/l CIM, it is a really cool program and
| I believe the d/l is free. GA
David/Moderator: Peter....
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: CIM is what we use, and it only costs $10.00, then CIS
| give you $10.00 free usage, so its basically free. Its makes...
| things like this much much easier!...
| Peter > GA
User 4 | Great! Where do I obtain it...forum.? GA
David/Moderator: Joe, where do you get the thing?
Joe Balsamo: It is in the CIM forum, I believe, just do GO CIM
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: GO CIM, that will at least tell you were to go from
| there!
| Peter > GA
User 4 | Thanks all. Ok. Shall we throw around some basic ideas for the
| structure...,
| or just do it solo and upload.......or where do we go with this
| now.GA
David/Moderator: Joe, care to elaborate here....GA
Joe Balsamo: Well, I think that we may want to have the basic stuff...
| type of encounter, date, time, location, description, number of
| witnesses, etc. that should be good for a start...
| the more fields we have, the more selective our data inquiries
| will be, of course. GA
David/Moderator: Also...
User 4 | !!
David/Moderator: my database system I use has a field that points to a
| file name, to obtain more detailed info....
| sometimes 15 or 20 pages worth....
| Peter > GA
User 4 | How about C.Encounter type I, II , III etc with varied fields
| applying to...,
| each. GA
*SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1)
David/Moderator: OK ....
| I uploaded to Joe, a new classifications system I found, and
| enhanced...
| that helps to make classifying these much easier, and you can
| better taylor it to the type of sighting....
| we will need to include that in the file layout, and I will
| send the classification system to you Peter, so you have a
| copy..GA
User 4 | ok
David/Moderator: Joe, comments > GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I believe that file is also in the library, is it not?
| Also, the nice thing about that new system is that it also ...
| lets one assign a factor of believability to the sighting. GA
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | Ok. I will def. look at the new system. Any suggested reading
| for these...,
| classification methods from various UFOlogists/groups? GA
David/Moderator: Joe, I think this guy is a minded reader!....
| The classification system isn't in the library, but I'll upload
| it later....
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: also, about the books, Joe and I have been compling a
| must read book list, so you'll have a list as soon as we're
| done.....
| Peter > GA
User 4 | I have also seen - in a report - a page for drawings - sky
| drawings...,
| or whatever a person can do as part of the report.GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: That is an excellent point! We should consider including
| GIFs with the reports. David has a scanner, so he could scan
| in any 'hand
| drawings'.GA
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | Most IBM compatible scanning software I've seen uses PCX or
| TIFF or others..,
Joe Balsamo: !
User 4 | like this but not GIF. !
David/Moderator: Peter, my scanning software will alos use GIF, and let
| me add....
| that I can scan drawings, sketches, photos, just about
| anything, in 256 grey scal colors. Does an excellent job on....
| Playboy centerfolds!........Joe > GA
User 4 | !
Joe Balsamo: My only reason for suggesting GIF is because it is CIS's own
| format. Theoretically, anyone with CIS can use GIF. GA
David/Moderator: Well, I can do GIF so no prblem there.......Peter > GA
User 4 | I downloaded GRAPHSHOP so it can handle or covert all of
| these....,
| No actual problem here. GA
David/Moderator: Also....
| I use PhotoFinish by ZSoft, and it will import, convert, save,
| load, anything in over 20 different formats so we're set...
| I also use OmniPage to OCR text and import it into my word
| processor, so we can also use that feature...GA
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | We have a Panasonic scanner at Optus (we develop FACSys) and
| use Calera...,
| for scanning needs.... so we all use great stuff. GA
Joe Balsamo: BRB
David/Moderator: Joes gonna check something out, he'll be back in a
| sec....
| This ideas of your is wonderfull, I didn't think of it, we
| could inlude actual photographs taken from eyewitness
| encounters....
| my software also allow me to do some photo-analysis, which
| would com ein handy as well....GA
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Peter > GA
User 4 | Which sort of leads us to the video... after we tie up the
| database ideas.GA
David/Moderator: Good point, I wouold like to discuss the video as
| well....
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: Do you think we've covered enough on the DB to at least
| start working out a format of some kind...Peter > GA
Joe Balsamo: !
User 4 | Yes. I will look at the system you recommended and draw on it.
| Do you...,
| tthink this system is good on its own? GA
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: I was just thinking that we may want to participate in the
| paranormal forum discussion on the video...what do you guys
| think ga
David/Moderator: Joe, bows to me....
| Peter > GA
User 4 | Who is doing the paranormal CO? What's the topic(s) ? GA
David/Moderator: Joe > GA
Joe Balsamo: OK...
David/Moderator: Peter....
Joe Balsamo: They are having a discussion on the NASA UFO film that was
| shown on hardcopy, it might be interesting for us to get
| involved in
| their discussion. GA
David/Moderator: the paranormal section of the Issues Forum is about to
| have a CO on the Shuttle video, Joe and I were just
| discussing....
Joe Balsamo: I;m heading over there, c you guys in a bit
User 4 | !
David/Moderator: the possiblity of ending this CO and venturing over
| there...what do you think......Peter > GA
User 4 | Yes. Where is it?
| GA
| !
David/Moderator: When you exit this forum, GO ISSUES, then select the
| Paranormal section, we can meet in the CO....
User 4 | OK
David/Moderator: but a word of caution, there are some hard lined
| sketptics over there that can get REALLY RUDE, so watch you
| back....GA
User 4 | See you there. Thanks! Ok. Good CO this one - today.
| Shall we say bye? GA
David/Moderator: Thanks, we can E-mail each other if you have questions,
| or come up with some ideas....otherwise, we'll end this....
| and meet over there....OK
User 4 | Ok On my Bye!
David/Moderator: Conference officially over,,, bye
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