SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 24-MAY-92 FILE: UFO2961
Wherever I have added comments, to make the text a bit more readable, I
have placed by additions within brackets, i.e. [].
*********** New Age Forum 24-May-92 17:52:42
Rilla/Sysop: David, do you want to explain the rules?
David/Moderator: Ummm, could you this first time, please?
Rilla/Sysop: Sure...in a formal conference, David will be the
| moderator...
| he will keep track of whose turn it is to speak...
| please dont interrupt the speaker and wait until it is your
| turn...
| when you have a question type "?"...
| David will notice and call on you in turn...
| if you want, you can type "!" for a comment...
| you still will be called on in turn...
| when it is your turn you type your lines followed by elipses...
| until you are finished. Then you type "ga" which indicates
| that you...
| are finished and ready to have an answer. Is this clear for
| everyone?
Tony Alicea: Yes\
David/Moderator: What's an elipse?
Tony Alicea: ...
Rilla/Sysop: Elipses are a series of ...
| <g>
David/Moderator: ...OK...ga
Rilla/Sysop: ok...then Ray will turn on the buffer and we will begin...
| David> GA
Tony Alicea: ?
David/Moderator: ...OK, Tonight I thought we would start with the movie
| "Intruders"...
| ga Tony
Tony Alicea: You answered the Q. It's about UFO's, The CO?
| ga
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Yes, we'll start off with Intruders I think... <g>
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: I just wanted to say that I thought that it was a very good
| movie on the subject, considering it was on prime time TV...
| I wonder if we will see more and more of this brought into
| mainstream. ga
David/Moderator: It was good indeed, but I'm afraid many people will
| consider it science
| fiction when in reality it is based on true facts from many
| people. I think the biggest
| problem most people have is admitting abduction scenerios
| actually exist...ga
Tony Alicea: !
David/Moderator: Tony > ga
Tony Alicea: *I* have a problem w/abductions. I have read "Close
| encounters." by the guy
| from Northwestern U., and I find it hard to believe...GA
Joe Balsamo: !
Rilla/Sysop: ?
David/Moderator: Abductions are a fact of life. Too many people have
| experienced them...
| with very REAL physical marks left over to just deny there
| existence..
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: Many things that are too far outside of the norm people find
| difficult to believe. Hopkins makes a point in his book about
| the
| difficulty...
| people had after the 2nd world war (even today) or accepting
| the Holocost. This isn't because it wasn't real, but just too
| far
| outside the normal...GA
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: Ok...
| I didnt see the program INTRUDERS...
| but from what I can gather it was basically about abductions...
| two questions...
| Did it SAY plainly that these abductions were based on Fact and
| cite the ...
| cases? Also...is it going to be a series or was it a one shot
| deal? GA
Joe Balsamo: !
Tony Alicea: !
David/Moderator: OK...
| It did cite, at the beginning and end of the movie, that
| the movie based on more than ONE....
| account, in fact several, and had been put into movie form. It
| was just a one shot deal, from...
| what I can gather. No, it did not cite any specific cases,
| from what I could see...
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: Rilla, I would highly suggest reading the book
| 'Intruders'...
| I think most books are better than movies, anyway. Also, the
| book is a nonfictional account of the UFO experiences...
| of several people. The names have been changed to protect
| privacy, but this stuff is real, it has been brought back...
| using hypnotic regression. GA
Rilla/Sysop: !
David/Moderator: Tony > ga
Tony Alicea: Thanks,
| ...
| I meant to say "The UFO Experience" by J. Allen Hyneck, Tech
| Consultant to...
| the movie Close Encounters of the...
| ...
| WHat about the Mileer case? Hypnotism was used, rigth? ga
David/Moderator: OK...
| Tony, even Hyneck came to belive in the UFO abduction problem.
| He even researched several by himself...
| About the Miller case?, I'm not sure I'm familiar with the one
| your stating,...
| perhaps you could elaborate more.
| Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: Tony, did you want to elaborate first?
Tony Alicea: no,... ga
Rilla/Sysop: ok...
| I just wanted to say that I dont doubt the authenticity of the
| abduction...
| stories. My best friend found out through hypnosis..
| that her phobias were a result of the fact that SHE is an
| abductee...
| she cant confront the details yet...even in deep hypnosis...
| nor can she read anything about UFO's or Schribers books...
| its really creepy. What DO you think of Schribers books, btw?
| ga
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Schribers books are indeed excellant, but I worry
| sometimes about his...
| reasons behind the books. He says he was abducted, and yet
| some belive that he is in...
| involved in the conspiracy with the government. For the most
| part I believe what he has to say...Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: Tony, did you want to elaborate further on your idea...GA
Tony Alicea: about the miller case?
| ga
Joe Balsamo: yes ga
David/Moderator: Yes, Tony, if Joe doesn't mind, would you elaborate..ga
Tony Alicea: well give me a few mins... Others GA
David/Moderator: OK, Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: Ok...
| I was just going to say that the Schreiber books are an
| interesting read, but I like a little more methodology to get
| to the heart
| of what is going on...
| I also just wanted to interject on what the impression of the
| general in 'Intruders' was, I thought the movie did a good job
| of
| portraying the military point of view :) ga
David/Moderator: Ok...
Rilla/Sysop: ?
David/Moderator: I agree with the military point of view the movie
| interjected, and many...
| people DO believe the military is indeed involved. The big
| problem is trying to decide just how...
| deeply involved the military is. Did they establish an Alien
| government pact, like many belive, ....
| or are they simply trying to find answers to the UFO mystery as
| a whole...
| Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: What WAS the military's view?...
| and if the Aliens are of a higher enough intelligence...
| to get themselves here in the first place...
| I would think that they would be intelligent enough...
| NOT to get involved with the miltary OR ESPECIALLY our
| government! GA
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Ok..
| First, the governments point of view, in the movie, was they
| knew of UFO's but had not yet discovered....
| why they are here, what they want, and if they prove a security
| risk....
| Therefore, they refused to tell the people until they could
| answer these questions for themselves....AS for the second
| point...
| many people believe the aliens are here for sinister reasons,
| and that they have entered into...
| a collaboration with our government to avoid possible conflicts
| in the future...
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: OK...
Rilla/Sysop: !
Joe Balsamo: I think that the US government may have some recovered
| vehicles, may have some dead, frozen aliens, and _may_ have
| even had a live
| alien at one time...
Tony Alicea: !
Joe Balsamo: This is speculation drawn from eyewitness accounts and other
| data. I DO NOT think the US government knows a lot more than
| it's
| citizens are being abducted in a specified manner by an alien
| technology. I DO NOT think that aliens are involved with
| the...
| US government, for the very reasons that Rilla points out. I
| also don't think the aliens _are_ a threat to us, in fact their
| ultimate purpose is quite unclear. GA
David/Moderator: OK... Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: ok....
| I know that I am somewhat of an idealist <g>...
| but I have a really hard time believing that a civilization
| that is...
| advanced enough to be capable of and have experienced space
| travel...
| could be here for "sinister" reasons. sigh...idealism dies
| hard. GA
David/Moderator: Tony > ga
Tony Alicea: I am sorry, It's not the "Miller" case *but* The Betty And
| Barney *HILL* case
| ...
| that I was reffering to! (long time...) I must leave now; so
| have a good...
| weekend ... Peace!; Bye
David/Moderator: Bye Tony, sorry to see you leave..ga
Rilla/Sysop: ?
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: For the record..
| will one of you elaborate on the Hill case...I think I remember
| it but not...
| sure...werent they abducted and operated on?
| ga
David/Moderator: Would you like to elaborate Joe? ga
Joe Balsamo: Sure...
| This case is very similar in its basic nature to the cases
| described in the general abduction literature that has happened
| to
| literally millions of people worldwide...
| A couple was abducted, sperm samples [taken] from him, gyn
| [gynecological] exam on her,
| but one of the most interesting aspects of the Hill case is
| that
| Betty was 'shown' a star map...
Rilla/Sysop: ?
Joe Balsamo: that did not conform to any known systems until years later
| when certain stars coincided propely denoting the Zeta Reticuli
| system.
| GA
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: wow! Ok...
| Are most people's recollections <when they have them>...
| of the abductions always NEGATIVE? I would think that at least
| SOME...
| woud be positive. And I have another question after tis one <g>
| ga
David/Moderator: OK...
| Well, some abductee's feel almost "special" to have been
| abducted. Even though tests have been performed on them...
| they feel they were selected for a higher purpose of some kind,
| and yet it seems almost ALL...
| abduction cases involve medical exams. Other are talked to and
| made to believe that they are some part of a plan, ...
| which the alien's have planned for us... Rilla, next question >
| ga
Rilla/Sysop: sorry...
| trying to answer sen questions and talk...
| ok...
| my other question involves the phobias...
| Are these common for abductees?
| ga
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: I know what phobias are, but could you be more specific?
| What kinds of phobia's exactly...ga Rilla
Rilla/Sysop: Well...specifically flying...
| but also issues of "safety"
| you know...
| abnormal worry about accidents, kids safety, health, financial
| problems...
| I dont know how to be more specific. CONTROL issues. GA
David/Moderator: I get it...
| Yes, many people afterwards are afraid of such things as
| flying, medical exams, doctors,
| they are scared of the dark, abnormally afraid for there
| children, constantly seem unclean, and so forth...
| I believe that its just natural to have such 'phobias' after
| such a trying experience...
| Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: ok...
| It seems to me from the stuff that I have read in the abduction
| literature, it seems that the experience is similar to any
| other
| kind of violent assault...
| But it is worsened by the fact that the abductee KNOWS it will
| happen again, something that most crime victims don't have to
| contend with...
| At the same time it seems that the aliens don't _mean_ to be
| causing harm, its almost as if they don't understand. GA
Rilla/Sysop: ?
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: That reminds me of another question...
| has there been any change, according to the documentation...
| in the way the abductions and examinations are carried out...
| that would show that the aliens are coming to understand our...
| physical or psychological makeup any better? Are they being...
| "kinder and gentler" aliens? <grin>
| ga
David/Moderator: Rilla,...
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: It doesn't appear that the aliens are learning anything
| from all those exams, in fact...
| they seem to carry on the same work over and over again...
Rilla/Sysop: excuse me..
| that doesnt make any sense at all in light of how intelligent
| they would...
| have to be...does it? ga
David/Moderator: Not really....
| unless they are here for sinister reasons, or something we
| can't yet understand...ga
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Joe > ga.
Joe Balsamo: Thanks...
| I don
| whoops...
| I don't think that this is the case at all, there ddoes seem to
| be some indication that they have performed their experiments
| in a
| variety of ways...
| I don't know how systematic they studies of the improvement of
| the procedures are...perhaps we can get an NSF grant to study
| it? :)
| GA
Rilla/Sysop: <g>
David/Moderator: <BG>
| I don't necessarily agree.
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: the aliens seem to be conducting the same work, under
| different ways...
| but the same type of tests over and over again. Perhaps we are
| working with different groups of aliens?..... Joe > ga
Joe Balsamo: I think part of the problem in researching this issue is
| that it is impossible to get any funding for serious
| research...
| this being the case, we have to rely on people like Budd
| Hopkins who do it as an advocation and help to abductees.
| But, of
| course, if the government doesn't want this info out...
| that will never happen (getting funded research) GA
Rilla/Sysop: ?
David/Moderator: Yes, but another big in researching this work is the
| hypnotist's themselves...
| if during regressive hypnosis, the hypnotist is not EXTREMELY
| carefull, he will push off his thoughts onto the person he....
| or she is regressing......Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: Hypnosis is not the technique to use IMHO...
| there are too many uncontrolled variables and we cant say for
| certain...
| exactly WHO we are talking to while in a regressed situation...
| the person, an ego state, a disembodied spirit, a separate
| personality...
| etc. It is not an exact enough science to be trusted even by
| those of us...
| who believe in it. That said...my REAL question was...
| someone has mentioned building a data base on here...
| of known sightings and abductions...
| what if you were to put the word out that we were doing such a
| gathering...
| of data...
| on a system as large and as international as this one...
| SOMEONE would bound to take notice...
| and if you began to get pressure or funny things started
| happening...
| you would have some sort of clarification at least for
| yourselves. ga
David/Moderator: Rilla, are you telepathic> <bg> ga
Joe Balsamo: !
Rilla/Sysop: David> yes
| and clairaudient so watch what youre thinking!!
| <g>
David/Moderator: YES MAAM.....Joe ga
Joe Balsamo: sorry...
David/Moderator: Joe> ga!
Joe Balsamo: minor kitchen crisis...
| I think that Rilla's idea is fantastic! I'm a database
| designer in real life, so I would love to design a system to
| input the data
| into...
| If we do catch the attention of the CIA or whomever, it would
| not be the first time that people have been hassled over this
| affair. GA
David/Moderator: Rilla...
| What would be the possiblity of establishing such a database?
| ga
Rilla/Sysop: what do you mean? We have a data library here for your use.
| More than that?
| ga
David/Moderator: I would think so, Joe....
| are you talking of like a 'real' database type system?...ga
Joe Balsamo: Well...
| A real database wether it is computerised or not, has to have
| some internal consistency to be of any use...
| for example, we are going to need to establish parameters that
| people are going to have to report on and try to quantify as
| much as
| possible...
| the hard part is going to be the leg work (finger work?) of
| getting the word out and getting a report form and all that
| stuff, then
| building a hypercard stack or whatever ain' no big deal GA
Rilla/Sysop: ?
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: Joe Walters> you have a better idea of the operations of CIS
| data bases...
| Do you have any comments or suggestions here? ga
Joe Walters: Not really...
| That sounds more like the sort of thing...
| that requires a single user to collate and construct...
| into a user-accesible database form, hopefully...
| in some manner usable by MS-DOS types, Mac users, Apple II...
| folks, etc. etc. Beyond my fields of expertise! :-) ga
Rilla/Sysop: !
David/Moderator: Joe...
Joe Walters: (the HyperCard stack idea was probably the most
| user-friendly approach)
David/Moderator: Would it not be possible to construct a PC based
| database system then to
Joe Walters: !
David/Moderator: upload the database itself here to be exchanged with
| others? ga Joe
Joe Balsamo: !
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Joe Walters: Could be, as long as it's in a form transportable. Another
| approach...
| might be to have a "team" involved; one "leader" to gather...
| the raw data, and three or four users to customize it for...
| the various platforms; an MS-DOS person to put it in...
Joe Balsamo: Wouldn't be a problem to do something on the PC as well.
| Like I say, the work part of it would be to come up with forms
| that could
| be filled in by people...
Joe Walters: dBase form (or whatever is popular these days), a Mac
| person...
| to put in a Hypercard stack, and I'd be willing to serve to...
| build a HyperStudio stack for Apple IIgs users.
| (ga)
David/Moderator: OK,, Joe B > ga
Joe Walters: Too many Joes in here! :-)
JoeB | yep...
Joe Walters: Hehehe. All in favor of Joes ruling the universe.... Nahhh.
Rilla/Sysop: !!!!!!!!!!!
David/Moderator: no
Rilla/Sysop: <g>
[At this point Joe Balsamo change is ID to JoeB to avoid confusion!}
JoeB | Umm, I think the design of the report forms is the important
| thing, that and getting people to know that this forum is
| trying to do
| a data gathering project GA
Joe Walters: Need one more so we can win! Where's Joe Kohn when I need
| him\??
| !
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga,
Rilla/Sysop: hehehehe...finally...
| <g>
| I was going to suggest..
| that you talk on the phone with Neil when he gets back..
| and let him know what it is that you want to do...
| I'm sure that he will know the limits of what CIS and this
| forum...
| has to offer. He's also a good idea person. ga
Joe Walters: Hmmm....
| What is this "talk on the phone" concept? Isn't that some sort
| of...
David/Moderator: Joe W > ga
Joe Walters: low-speed voice comm method that uses equipment better
| suited...
| for modems and computers? Anyway, I could certainly discuss
| it...
| with Neil, but seriously the CIS databases are really
| LIBraries...
Rilla/Sysop: <g>
Joe Walters: and are not structured to handle what we normally think of
| as...
JoeB | !
Joe Walters: "databases" with the exceptions of special areas (like the
| encyclopediae...
| and so on). That would be a big pain to set up and maintain,
| and users...
| who have automated access programs (Nav, TAPCIS, etc) can't
| really use...
| those areas well. I think this would be better suited to having
| someone...
| gather the data (that's where a standardized form & getting the
| word...
| out comes in) and having users structure the data in an
| organized...
| form comfortable to the end user. Download the file, load into
| your...
| fave DB/Hypermedia program, and checkit out. GA!
David/Moderator: JoeB > ga
JoeB | David...
Joe Walters: brb!
JoeB | I was just going to suggest that Joe W's idea is pretty much
| what I have in mind, that way people can just d/l the standard
| form,
| fill it in, and u/l it...
Joe W | (back!)
JoeB | We could then be responsible for putting it into a more useable
| database offline, then upload THAT for usage by researchers.
| Whattya think? GA
Joe W | !
David/Moderator: I like it.....Joe W > ga
Joe W | The two Joes are in perfect agreement! ...
Rilla/Sysop: !
Joe W | Note that we can make use (probably) of What's New when we
| start...
| this up, and I'm sure that there will be continuing mention of
| this...
| project as appropriate both here and in ISSUES Forum, and
| the...
| UFO mags will probably give us some free publicity. We could...
| become THE clearinghouse for this sort of info. Until we all...
| mysteriously disappear, of course. :-) GA
Rilla/Sysop: <g>
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: I was thinking that you could put...
| an explanatory message on the board which we could put on
| HOLD...
| so that it doesnt scroll...
| and then add to the News Flash a pointer saying "go check
| message #XXX"...
| about UFO survey...
| I think that you could EASILY become THE clearinghouse with
| just a bit...
| of work...which you all are doing already. We'd be happy to
| help...
| the extra publicity doesnt hurt the forum <g>.
| ga
Joe W | Ah, yes! The old (H)eld message trick!
Rilla/Sysop: hehehehe
Joe W | !
David/Moderator: And the commanders need something to do too!... ga
Rilla/Sysop: <slump>
David/Moderator: Joe W > ga
Joe W | OK, well, I think we see what needs to be done on this type
| of...
| thing. We can "self-start" it by seeding the initial
| database...
| with known cases and reports (The Hills, Jimmy Carter, etc)...
| just to prime the pump. We really need to build (I hate to...
| use this word) a committee now to actually do it. I need a ...
| better word than committee, as those never do anything...
| Anyway,...
| we need a team leader, a volunteer for each computer type...
| of interest, and the leader may want to appoint a couple...
| of helpers to assemble the data and get the forms together.
| Oh, and Interested....
| Computer Types would be defined when someone pipes up...
| and says, "I wish there was a database of this for the...
| Atari Whatever," and we immediately appoint him/her as...
| the coordinator for that system. :-) DONE!
David/Moderator: OK....
Joe W | (I Nominate the UFO Section Leader for the position of Team
| Leader.)
| (hehehe)
Rilla/Sysop: I second!
David/Moderator: JoeW, thanks alot..
Joe W | Yer Welcome!
David/Moderator: Ok, I would be willing to jump in, what the hey, I'm
| section leader right? ga
JoeB | !
David/Moderator: OK...just a sec...
| JoeB > ga
JoeB | I just wanted to say that this really has quite a potential to
| start a systematic aproach to reporting, we may want to talk to
| MUFON or CUFOS or all of them to get some ideas...
| forms that they are undoubtedly using and just use them or a
| variation of such, with the organizations permission, of course
| GA
Joe W | Good ideas!
David/Moderator: Are we all genius's here or what? ga
Joe W | Members of the New Age Forum Mutual Admiration Society.,
Rilla/Sysop: !
David/Moderator: Rilla > ga
Rilla/Sysop: I have bad news David...
| my buffer got bumped about a half an hour ago...
| and I wasnt watching it cause the screen was blanked...
| so I DONT have a transcript of this co...did you make one? I
| hope!!! sigh
David/Moderator: Don't worry, I think I recorded it all, at lease I hope
| so!
| Should we go informal now?
Rilla/Sysop: good!
JoeB | I have it to.
Rilla/Sysop: yes!
| <applause!!!!>
JoeB | YAAAAAAAAAAAA
Rilla/Sysop: Great job David!!!!
| you did it!
David/Moderator: Thank you Thank you, just send money please!
Rilla/Sysop: <g>
Joe W | We all survived!
David/Moderator: Specially me!
JoeB | well done, good show indeed!
Rilla/Sysop: What money, we already gave you a free account!!
| hehehehehhehee
David/Moderator: Not bad for 5 or 6 people?
Rilla/Sysop: I think that you should make this a regular occurence.
David/Moderator: I'd like to if its possbile, it has potential!
Rilla/Sysop: Figure out how often you are comfortable with and go with
| it.
| Just dont schedule it the same time as the ISSUES co.
| <g>
David/Moderator: I did that on purpose... ha ha ha
Rilla/Sysop: And dont feel badly about the show...
| not very many people show for the co itself...
| but LOTS will download the transcript!
David/Moderator: Yea, CIA, FBI, NSA
Joe W | Hahaha!
JoeB | more and more info being sent out, that's what is important in
| this issue.
Rilla/Sysop: hahahahahaha....they will have to add a new page to my file!
David/Moderator: Anyhone interested, meet in room 2?
Rilla/Sysop: Yes, I'll be there in a minute...
| our Sunday co is scheduled for 9 and I need to check the board
| first.
David/Moderator: Its been a pleasure, thank you all for coming!
JoeB | For a bit, then i gotta get some dinner!
David/Moderator: Meet you in CO 2
THE END! (for now!)
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