SUBJECT: WHO'S DISINFORMING WHOM ? FILE: UFO2540
PART 7
The following file comes from the hard work of Bill Ralls and Allen Robinson.
My thanks goes out to them.
Don Ecker
UFOs Tonite!
Cable Radio Network
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The following are excerpts, highlights if you will from an inter-view of Dr.
Bruce Maccabee (UFO researcher and physicist at the Naval Surface Weapons
Laboratory) on August 8, 1993, by Don Ecker on the Cable Radio Network program
UFOs Tonite! This was pre-pared by Allen Robinson (with whom the
responsibility for any errors resides), with the vital assistance of Bill Ralls
and the gracious permission of Don Ecker.
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>> Topic: Dr. Maccabee and the CIA.
Ecker: "I guess the first thing we have to ask is, did you in fact, over the
years, on a number of occasions, brief CIA?"
>Maccabee: "It would be more correct to say that I presented some >lectures
there. Briefing sounds a bit too formal. ....
>First of all, my first talk at the CIA was in 1979, as a result >of the New
Zealand sightings. The AIR report implies that I had >actively sought out the
CIA to talk to them, which is incorrect. >Talking to the CIA would have been
the farthest thing from my >mind. What really happened was this: I came back
from
>Australia and New Zealand where I carried out a major part in >the
investigation. And then I started consulting with a number >of people as I
started across the United States to get back to >the Washington, DC area. When
back in Washington, I mentioned >to ... the head of NICAP at the time, that I
would be interested >in talking to any radar experts. He happened to know of a
guy >named Gordon MacDonald who was a chief scientist at Mitre Cor->poration in
McLean, Virginia, at the time. He contacted Gordon >MacDonald and MacDonald
invited me to go and talk at Mitre,>which I did--to him and two other
scientists there--for three >or four hours, and they seemed to agree with what
I was saying >in terms of my radar analysis of the New Zealand sightings."
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Dr. Maccabee said that a few days later he learned that Gordon MacDonald had
contacted some people at the CIA who knew about radar. They contacted Maccabee
and invited him to come over and talk to them.
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>Maccabee: "What I had wanted to do was what I had done pre->viously for
various people. I had presented the information to >go over the New Zealand
sightings history and then my analysis >of the radar aspects and get their
comments on what they thought >was happening, because there was a big
controversy over whether >these were so-called 'radar angels' which are radar
returns >(i.e., signatures that appear on a radar set) due to atmospheric
>effects, or actual solid craft out there. So, I talked to this >group of
people. I didn't know who they were. And I got some >comments, some feedback.
And then, one of the guys mentioned in >the AIR report invited me back for a
more general discussion of >the UFO field. And a week or so later I went back
and we talked >I guess about general UFOlogy. There were two other guys
there,>people who basically had an interest in the subject. ...." Ecker:
"What was the level of interest in the people that you talked to at CIA? Was
it more-or-less casual?"
>Maccabee: "I would say more or less casual, although I think >they may have
been intrigued from the point of view of an
>interesting test of their ability to explain things.....
>"The second discussion I had at the CIA did mention a number of >documents
that the CIA might have had, and a comment came out >that there might be
thousands more. .... The guy who told me >that knew well enough that he
didn't know everything about what >the CIA had. Now, it alleges in the AIR
document that I con->tinued to have meetings with the CIA, 1979 through 1983,
which >is false. After the second 1979 meeting, I didn't have any >further
conversations or meetings at the CIA--had no further >contact, period. And
probably wouldn't have, if it hadn't been >for the fact that some of the work I
do for the Navy became of >interest to the CIA in 1984. At which point I was
contacted >again, but by a totally different person (nobody that I had >ever
met before) and I went there and briefed him (this was a >briefing) on some
work I was doing for the Navy. ....
>I didn't say a thing about UFOs and neither did the other guy >that I was
talking to. But he must have found out somehow-->somebody there recognized
me."
Ecker: "Now, we're talking about the Directorate of Science and Technology,
Ron Pandolphi--is that correct?"
>Maccabee: "Yeah, one of the employees who works in that."
Ecker: "Pandolphi."
>Maccabee: "Right. And he was interested in some Navy work that >I was doing
because he was tracking what at that time was the >Soviet version of it. And
subsequently, somebody mentioned to >him that I had been there previously. So
he called me up and >started askingme about this stuff that I had talked about
back >in 1979.
>Maccabee: "I would go over there occasionally in the following >years to talk
about this particular item of interest from the >Navy work and sometimes get
into discussions of what was going >on in the field of UFOs."
Ecker: "Did you realize how these things might look or would look, and did you
assume that they would stay secret? .... Did you assume that this would not
become an issue?
>Maccabee: "Well, I hadn't made it an issue and it still
>wouldn't be an issue if it hadn't been that Mr. Zechel has a >hidden agenda
here, which people who don't know anything about >him wouldn't be aware of."
Ecker: "Now we're talking about W. Todd Zechel, one of the primary authors of
this document. Many people may not know who he is."
>Maccabee: "Actually, I now realize it was quite a success, or >evidence of
stature in the scientific field. The guys over >there at the Agency who were
interested knew of my work in con->ventional science and considered that highly
enough so that >they'd be willing to listen to me talk about something that was
>totally unconventional. Thery're pretty skeptical about the >whole subject."
Ecker: "Let's get this out right now, and I would like you to make a
definitive statement. One of the things that have been suggested with your
contact with people within CIA, and one of the things that invariably probably
will get brought up is the fact that you are a disinformation person." ....
>Maccabee: "The straightforward statement is, I have not
>received any information from them for information or disin->formation. I
have not received information from them, period."
Ecker: "Now one of the things that you had told me that they did have an
interest in when you were over there lecturing ... you had indicated that a
couple of people were interested in certain personalities in the field and in
the computer bulletin networks --computer bulletin boards. Can you elaborate
..?"
>Maccabee: "Well, they had somebody, one guy over there, I guess >who was
interested in the subject, had checked bulletin boards >and came upon the stuff
that was dumped on there by Lear and >Cooper and all those other people. What
was that, 1988?"
Ecker: "Yeah, '88 - '89. Now was this official, or was this his own
interest?"
>Maccabee: "So far as I could tell it was just his own interest. >You know, I
don't know what the hell they do there. I can't say >that it absolutely was
not official. But I've been led to >believe at least, that this was just a
question of the guy being >interested in the subject, and checking on bulletin
boards to >see if there's anything on UFOs and coming on this Lear and >Cooper
stuff on CompuServe. I don't know where else it might >have been but I know it
was on CompuServe, because I checked in >on some of it myself. .... Well,
anyway, I guess the guy who >checked up on that stuff, coming not too long
after the MJ-12 >revelations and so on, didn't know what to make of it.
So,>they asked me what was my opinion of this stuff that they were >finding on
the computer network, and I told them that I didn't >have a very high opinion
of it. I think that Lear and certainly >Cooper started off with some relative
level of credibility, but >very quickly went down the drain."
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>> Topic: The MJ-12 documents.
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Ecker asks if Maccabee thinks the MJ-12 documents made public by Bill Moore are
real or disinformation.
>Maccabee: "I would say it's still an open question."
It is alleged in the AIR document that Bill Moore faked the MJ-12 documents.
Maccabee says he does not believe this.
>"But if they were faked, they were faked by somebody who is >pretty damn
clever and who knew things about history that we >didn't know until the
investigations of the documents began. >.... [I]f Roswell was true, there was
some organization that >had to do that job. It might not have been 'MJ-12.'
If the >papers were generated to draw us off the trail, it caused us to >waste
a lot of time but it didn't draw us off the trail. It >made us look harder."
>"I would say that, assuming that the Roswell crash was real, >which is a
reasonable assumption based on all the testimony >that we have, that there must
be some hardware somewhere. And >if there is hardware, and perhaps bodies,
held somewhere in sec->ret, then there must be some organization controlling
it. And >the job of that organization would be the job that reportedly >has
been assigned to this group called 'MJ-12.' I would say >that MJ-12 by any
other name is still MJ-12. There is some con->trol group out there hanging on
to the hardware, soaking up >information from the outside and not letting any
information >get back out."
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--end of file highlights-- from UFOs Tonite! on CRN
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