SUBJECT: UFO's - The Mystery That Won't Go Away FILE: UFO2492
11/22/91
Larry King Live
KING: Real or not, whether or not you scoff or shiver - flying
saucers are a part of our culture. The stories of weird goings-on
are consistent and often credible, but the proof is always
seemingly out of reach. Decades of frustration haven't stopped the
true believers from trading conspiracy and cover-up theories that
get more and more bizarre. Now why does the UFO's controversy
persist? What is really going on here? The phenomenon is the
subject of a new book by cultural historian Keith Thompson. The
book is titled Angels and Aliens: UFO's and the Mythic
Imagination. Keith is an independent scholar and researcher. He's
at our studios here in Washington. In Los Angeles - Don Ecker,
research director of UFO Magazine. He believes the Government is
hiding the truth about UFO's.
Keith, your book is saying, `A plague on all their houses'?
KEITH THOMPSON, Author, `Angels and Aliens': I don't need to
put the plague there. I think the plague is there already, and let
me tell you what I mean by that. I saw that in this subject
certain things weren't being discussed for quite a while and what-
It occurs to me that 40 years after this phenomenon emerged as the
flying saucer phenomenon our interest in it has consistently taught
us much less with certainty about aliens than about ourselves.
No one had really, you know, documented how our interest in the
phenomenon consistently reveals a great deal about what it means to
be human, what it means to live a human life. But that's generally
covert and what's generally at the surface is this ongoing
back-and-forth debate between both sides - both of which sides
typically are enmeshed in dogmatic one-dimensional viewpoints.
And first of all, let me say I think there's something
extraordinary going on in the UFO phenomenon. I think there is a
fundamental reality to it. What that reality is, I don't know, but
I suspect it's beyond our current ability to grasp it.
KING: You sound like-
Mr. THOMPSON: And therefore both sides - both sides -
consistently need to rationalize it into some conceptual system
that works for human beings.
KING: You sound, Keith, like an agnostic in a world of
believers and atheists.
Mr. THOMPSON: I have found myself in that position. You know,
one of the things that I have come to realize is that if ufology -
the research field of UFO's - can be likened to a dysfunctional
family in the sense of this constant back-and-forth fighting, I was
entrusted to be the sort of secret-keeper of the dysfunctional
family, because everyone I talked to in my interviews on both sides
said, `You know, I can tell you about him. Now, you can't quote me
because this is libelous but, you know, he's working for the
Government.' Or, `He's in cahoots with this,' or `He's crazy.
Now, you can't quote me.' And I was consistently invited to share
this secret - the various kinds of secrets - around what is, you
know, really a kind of paranoia on both sides.
KING: All right, are you saying, then, anyone who says
definitively `There are flying saucers; I went up with them; I met
the little people; the Government's hiding it' or anyone who says
definitively `There's nothing out there; forget it; nothing's in
the universe; we are it' - both of them have put themselves in
corners, can't prove either side of that corner, and they're kind
of a little whacked?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, that's what I've tried to document in the
book, and the key word is `definitive.' Any viewpoint that offers
itself as the definitive viewpoint has been offered many, many
times before. For example, one particular side says, `We're just
about ready to blow the lid on the Government coverup.' That was
first stated in the late 1940's and it continues to be stated. It
may be true this time, but it's been stated many times before.
KING: Like `The world's going to end a week from Tuesday.'
Mr. THOMPSON: I think it's Wednesday.
KING: OK. Don, how would you defend what Keith has said so
far, as research director of UFO Magazine?
DON ECKER, `UFO' Magazine: Well, Larry, Keith is in many
respects absolutely correct. This is a house divided. It has been
for quite a while. We have to break the ufologists down into
several groups. Unfortunately, I hate to say this, but we have one
group that are two or three taco's shy of a full combination plate.
We have another group that are, apparently, aliens. And what I
mean by that, they can manipulate time and space - the space inside
somebody's wallet and the time that it takes them to empty it. And
then we have a bedrock of serious UFO researchers - people that are
actually trying to get to the truth - and that's what we do in UFO
Magazine.
We take a look at all sides and we try to find out exactly what
is going on. We don't doubt for one minute that there is a
phenomenon and we don't doubt that the most workable hypothesis is
the one of possible extraterrestrial visitation, but we're not
locked into that. There is a mystery here. What we're saying is
it deserves to be studied. It deserves to be looked at. And it's
apparent - and we have documented proof - that the Government is
hiding something.
KING: All right, now, your documented proof, if we could be
brief, is what?
Mr. ECKER: OK, for example, this past spring I was in Tucson,
Arizona, at an international UFO conference. During the course of
this conference I had a chance to meet Dr. Marina Popovitch, who is
a Soviet researcher over here in the United States. At that period
of time I had a chance to interview her over two days' period and
the very last day that I was speaking to her I asked her about a
rumor that I had heard in a book that I had read by another
researcher back on the East Coast by the name of Zachariah Sitchin.
The book is Genesis Revisited, and he intimated in this book that,
during the course of a Soviet space mission back in 1988-1989,
something passingly strange happened in the orbit of Mars with one
of these Soviet probes, and I asked Dr. Popovitch if there was any
truth to it.
Well, I got a fantastic story out of this that came all the way
from the halls of the Soviet politburo and, also, the Soviet space
center and Glavcosmos. Now, I asked her what exactly were the
facts that she brought back. Well, according to Sitchin, number
one, the Soviets had received several photographs from this space
probe-
KING: I'm going to ask you to be as brief as possible. Are you
saying that the Government knows about- our Government knows about
these photographs? We've exchanged them with the Soviets?
Mr. ECKER: Well, I have- I brought one with me, Larry. I
brought a photograph that has never been released outside of the
Soviet Union that was given to Dr. Popovitch, and I have it here.
What happened was this probe-
KING: Can we see it?
Mr. ECKER: Yes, I'm going to hold it up right now.
KING: All right.
Mr. ECKER: {Holds up photograph} This probe, all right, was in
the orbit of Mars and it was to perform several scientific
experiments.
Is this better?
KING: Yes.
Mr. ECKER: OK. It was to perform several scientific
experiments- and, excuse me, I have it upside-down.
KING: All right- Don't help me either way, by the way, but go
ahead. {laughs}
Mr. ECKER: {laughs} Right. OK. {Indicates printing at top of
photograph} This is, incidentally, Russian writing up here. What
it says is `FOBOS II' and then the number- the computer numbers.
But what this showed was that there was a very large metallic
cylindrical object-
KING: Right.
Mr. ECKER: -that this probe photographed, which you can see
right underneath the moon-
KING: Couldn't that be debris of some kind or something
floating in space?
Mr. ECKER: Well, yes, it could be, except for the size. The
size computed out to 25 kilometers long. That's 15-1/2 miles.
KING: OK, now, when you see something like this, Keith, how do
you react?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I react by- Personally, I have great
respect for Don and his magazine. He's one of the better- He's
thoughtful and intelligent and so forth.
KING: Obviously.
Mr. THOMPSON: Now, let me say, though, that the photograph- And
it may be exactly what he's saying, but the point is, year after
year, decade after decade, photographs have been presented which
fall between- fall in a category which are not accepted by the
scientific establishment. They may be real but, nevertheless- So
the photos become part of a modern mythology.
Mr. ECKER: Well, he's absolutely correct, Larry. He is
correct. There have been many, many photographs over the years
that have proved to be fraudulent. However, what we have to look
at are what facts would support this? What did the Soviets,
themselves, say? Now, according to Dr. Popovitch, when she spoke
to her contacts not only in Glavcosmos but also within the Soviet
politburo - and she's a very highly-placed person in Soviet society
- it came out that Premier Gorbachev and President Bush held this
at the very top of their agenda in their meeting at Yalta- or, I'm
sorry, Malta. Yalta was a few years ago. The story was so-
KING: In other words, they've discussed this photograph?
Mr. ECKER: Yes, that's correct.
KING: You know that for a fact?
Mr. ECKER: This is what I was told by Dr. Popovitch from her
contacts.
KING: OK. All right, let me get a break and then I want to
come right back and pick up on this with Keith Thompson - his book
is Angels and Aliens - and Don Ecker, research director of UFO
Magazine. This is Larry King Live - Richard Simmons on Monday.
Don't go away.
{Commercial break}
KING: Our guests are Keith Thompson, author of Angels and
Aliens, and Don Ecker of UFO Magazine. We're going to go to your
calls. We have limited time tonight, unfortunately. We want to do
more on this.
I would say this, Don. What's your theory on why the
Government would cover up?
Mr. ECKER: Well, there are any number of theories, Larry.
KING: Give me one. Give me one that you like.
Mr. ECKER: OK, something about the social fabric tearing apart.
I think they're afraid of it if, in fact-
KING: Every administration believes that? Every NATO person,
every person who knows about this shares that belief?
Mr. ECKER: It's hard to say whether they all know it or believe
it. I think, as time has gone on, the coverup, for whatever reason
it was initially begun- and incidentally, this entire era began the
time the National Security Act was signed into law.
KING: Uh-huh. So you buy the coverup theory?
Mr. ECKER: Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt.
KING: OK. Pensacola, Florida, hello.
5th CALLER: {Pensacola, Florida} Yes, I would like to know why
so many UFO investigators believe the Walters UFO pictures of Gulf
Breeze, Florida, are real, when it's been shown so many times in
the media that they could have been faked through double exposure?
KING: Keith?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, actually, many years now after those photos
have been examined the UFO community is coming around to recognize
the likelihood - very strong likelihood - that those photographs
are faked. And why did it take such a long time? There's a
fundamental- you know, a fundamental love and fundamental being
pulled into this over and over and over in the UFO field that
somehow is the need to believe.
KING: Medford, Oregon, hello.
6th CALLER: {Medford, Oregon} Howdy. I would like to know why,
with the millions and millions of self-focus videocameras and .35
millimeter cameras, all of the so-called photographic evidence of
UFO's is always out of focus, blurry, and pretty poor quality?
Mr. ECKER: Well, Larry, I'd like to answer that.
KING: Sure.
Mr. ECKER: That's not necessarily true. As a matter of fact,
one of the people that UFO Magazine has known for quite a while,
out in Yucaipa, California - the UFO video clearinghouse - has
thousands of tapes. Many of them have come in from people with
camcorders and there's absolutely- In many of these cases these are
very clear. Now, as to whether they're a true UFO, of course, is
something else. As we all know, many times people have mistaken
things.
KING: Yes.
Mr. ECKER: But there is still that 10 percent.
KING: Do we know why, Keith, they always land in `Kyacook,
Iowa,' and never Washington?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, they do land in sparsely-populated-
KING: Outside of `Kyacook.'
Mr. THOMPSON: That's right and, theoretically, always on the
back porch of someone named `Billy-Bob.'
KING: That's right.
Mr. THOMPSON: That's the popular mythology. And in fact, they
do avoid- They do seem to favor sparsely-populated areas.
KING: And guys named `Billy-Bob.' They like them.
Mr. THOMPSON: That's right. {laughs}
KING: Ouwerkerk, Holland, hello.
6th CALLER: {Ouwerkerk, The Netherlands} Hello, Ouwerkerk. I
hope to see you in Wetten, Dass with Thomas Gottschalk.
KING: Yes, he's invited me. I've agreed to go on. What's your
question?
6th CALLER: OK. My question is, what do you think about the
crop circles in Europe?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I think they're extraordinary-
KING: Oh, that turned out to be false, right?
Mr. THOMPSON: Well, there were a couple of guys who confessed
to doing-
KING: Yes.
Mr. THOMPSON: -to committing a couple of hoaxes.
Mr. ECKER: Well, Larry, as a matter of fact, in our last issue
we had an updated news story. As a matter of fact, we sent a press
release to CNN, to your show, and to a number of other press
agencies, explaining how this was absolutely and patently
impossible that these two guys had performed all these crop
circles, and we've never heard back from anyone. For example, last
year-
KING: Do you agree with that, Keith?
Mr. THOMPSON: That's what consistently happens in the field,
which is that when a couple of guys come forward and admit to
faking a couple of anything, or are exposed as faking, then the
debunkers can use that to say, `Well, the whole thing is probably
fake, the whole thing-'
Mr. ECKER: Absolutely. Absolutely correct.
Mr. THOMPSON: -but in fact, there are too many that simply
can't be explained.
KING: What do you gut-believe?
Mr. THOMPSON: My gut-belief is that we're dealing with
something that is much larger than we are and that every attempt
will grab- you know, every attempt to explain it will grab some
part of it but, in the long run, every theory we have about it will
reveal more about us in the long run.
KING: Back with more of Don Ecker and Keith Thompson on Larry
King Live. Don't go away.
{Commercial break}
KING: We're running close on time. Keith, why do you believe
the Government may know this and not reveal it?
Mr. THOMPSON: I think what the Government may well not be
revealing is they don't have the answers, either. If this is a
phenomenon that can transcend time and space, if aliens can pull
people out of their beds and out of their cars with impunity, the
very idea that we think the Government is still monolithic and must
have all the answers- If they don't have the answers, they're not
going to admit it.
KING: Don, is this the decade we learn for sure?
Mr. ECKER: That's hard to say, Larry. But, you know, we have
to take very quickly a real close look at this. Five hundred years
ago next year, Columbus left Europe and found a new world. It took
him months to get over here. Today, we do it in hours. Why? Do
we have faster sailing ships? No, we have different technology.
KING: Yes.
Mr. ECKER: And in our recent humanity here on this planet - and
we've had civilization for roughly 10,000 years - we've only had
atomic power for 46.
KING: Yes.
Mr. ECKER: Now, who knows what we're going to have in the next
few? I think more is going to come to light, yes.
KING: Thanks a lot. Don Ecker is the research director of UFO
Magazine; Keith Thompson, the author of Angels and Aliens.
>>> EOF <<<
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