Keywords: CONRESSMAN ROE HOAGLAND MARS FACE NASA COVERUP
The following is a template of a letter to the Chairman of the House
Committee on Space and Technology. It is very important that this issue
receive the proper amount of "political" attention, as NASA seems to have
their own agenda on how to look for signs of extrasolar intelligence AND
has refused to consider any "outside" evidence, irregardless of how
compelling.
[76012,3361]
HOAG.CO 11-May-89 36058 Accesses: 39
Keywords: HOAGLAND MARS MISSIOM PROJECT CO ET FACE
This file is transcript of Sunday, May 7, 1989 on-line CompuServe
Conference sponsored by the National Issues and People Forum with author
Richard Hoagland. His most recent book, "The Monuments of Mars," explores
a
surface anomaly photographed by NASA's Mars Viking Mission resembling a
human face.
The Issues Forum Library Disposition
[The following is a transcript of Sunday, May 7, 1989 on-line CompuServe
Conference sponsored by the National Issues and People Forum with author Rich
ard
Hoagland. His most recent book, "The Monuments of Mars," explores a surface
anomaly photographed by NASA's Mars Viking Mission resembling a human face.]
User ID Nod Name
------------- --- -------------------
72470,250 NRL daniel burton
71340,276 SOR Mark.Y
76012,3361 MRT Ted
76340,3357 BTM Michelle Smith
76703,266 DUK Georgia
71270,1311 LAK MARTIN ARANT
76416,733 QFM Ed Tarantelli
76702,330 CWV Dick
72537,2312 PRI Paul Carr
74656,2333 LCA Paul J. Burke/CA
71435,1203 NWH Howard
72135,424 PNX Jim S.
73500,625 CGK John
72406,1736 HLY Darrell Green
70511,17 CRZ Mike
74270,3360 BOI Don Ecker
71450,3504 ANN Bert
72560,341 RIV Mike Sugarman/Celes
72427,1316 ENC Ron Page
76703,674 DUK Chuck Lynd
76247,447 DTB steve rivera
72470,242 HVN EROL TORUN
75015,364 SFM Stan Tenen
72210,1213 DEM mcorbin
76703,303 WVA Dick DeLoach
% Conference has begun
(Georgia) Welcome to all! Tonight we welcome Richard Hoagland. During the
question-and-answer period, when it is your turn to speak, please keep line
length to around 60 columns. Keep questions short so that all participants h
ave
an opportunity to ask their questions. When you have finished formulating yo
ur
question, end with GA so that our guest will know when to begin. First, Ted
Markley, my assistant in charge of Paranormal issues will introduce the guest
,
then ask some questions to start things moving. After that we will take
questions as long as possible. GA Ted.
(Ted) Tonight we are fortunate to have as our special guest Richard Hoagland
,
author of "The Monuments of Mars" and founder of the Mars Project and the new
ly
formed Mars Mission. Dick's long list of impressive credentials can found in
the
Convention Center lobby as well as in the Issues Forum. Before we open the fl
oor
to questions I will conduct a brief interview with Dick which will cover some
of
the more frequently asked question. Welcome, Dick! GA
(Dick) Thanks, Ted. It's nice to be here. Ah, where ever "here" is.
(Ted) While many here tonight have read your book, others only know of the
"Face" on the Martian surface through tabloids such as the "National Enquirer
"
I know that this Martian surface feature is getting the serious attention of
noted members of the scientific community. Can you comment on the caliber of
the
team on the Mars Project. GA
(Dick) Well, Ted, the list is constantly growing. We have some whom have been
involved almost from the beginning -like Dr. Mark Carlotto, of the Analytic
Science Corporation, in Reading Mass. But, then we have "new blood" that com
es
to us out of the blue, like Erol Torun of Defense Mapping who read my book la
st
okfall, was _determined_ to prove me wrong -- and wound up discovering some
extraordinary stuff. So it just keeps growing.GA
{
(Ted) Dick, you recently started the Mars Mission as spin off of the Mars
Project. Can you explain the charter and purpose of the Mars Mission? GA
(Dick) When it became clear last Fall that we were really on to something, w
hen
the numbers started really coming together I realized that the biggest hurdle
to
getting verification was going to be the _political_ process. So, if the
Project was the originator of the research, the Mars Mission is the "home" of
what I like to think of as the necessary "democratization" of the data to get
the _political_ system up to speed for verification. In other words, we need
to
put the pressure on NASA to TAKE NEW PICTURES. And that means Congress and
people who want to know if this is real.ga
(Ted) Is there a way that interested people (even though they may not be high
ly
technical) can keep abreast of new development in both the Mars Project and t
he
Mars Mission? ----- Dick got knocked off. Please stand by. For those of you w
ho
just joined us, Dick Hoagland was knocked off and should be back on shortly.
ga
(Dick H.) Sorry, guys I seem to have slipped into a warp. This ship takes a
little getting used to. One can't be "all thumbs".ga
(Ted) I'll repeat my last question. Is there a way that interested people (e
ven
though they may not be highly technical) can keep abreast of new development
in
both the Mars Project and the Mars Mission? GA
(Dick H.) Let's try again. Yes, there is. One can write to us at the Mars
Mission: P.O. Box 981, Wytheville, VA 24382. Or, one can subscribe to the Ma
rs
Mission Newsletter (at the same P.O. Box). Or, one can actually log-on to ou
r
new (very new -- grin) Mars Mission Board, which we hope to get up and runnin
g
in a week or two. There are so many new developments -- on both the research
front and the political front that we've decided to try the "electronic way"
and
see if it works. I should add that Marty Arant is the guy who really impelled
us
to try this, so if it DOESN'T work blame him!.ga
(Ted) One last ? before I open the floor. What can the average person do to
help get us back to Mars and get more data on the "Face"? GA
(Dick H.) (Sorry for the delay -- we have cats) The main thing is that we nee
d
new images of Cydonia, ASAP, And NASA has steadfastly refused to take them!!
!
That simply doesn't make sense. What makes this science, as opposed to that
"other stuff" is that THIS IS TESTABLE. It's that simple. The fact that NASA
doesn't WANT to subject this data to the only fair appraisal at this point, i
s
very suspicious. Which is why we were extremely gratified that we've found su
ch
an excellent reception on Capitol Hill including an invitation to meet with t
he
Chairman (himself!) of the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology a
couple of weeks ago. His attention to this problem is probably going to do m
ore
in the long run to get us the answers we need (and deserve) than any other
single development on the political front in the last 13 years. And, to keep
that side of the system "honest" public interest (citizen support for the sim
ple
idea of LOOKING) is ESSENTIAL. This, Congressman Robert A. Roe should get som
e
mail from anyone who wants to let him know that they support HIS interest in
this vital inquiry. His address is:
The Honorable Robert A. Roe
Chairman, House Committee on Space, Science and Technology
U.S. House of Representatives
Rayburn Building -- Rm 2243
Washington, D.C.
Ted, you asked.ga
(Ted) I'll now open the floor to ? GA
(Dick H.) Sounds good.ga
(Georgia) type /que to get in line.
% Moderator recognizes queue #1
Paul J. Burke/CA <10>
(Paul J. Burke/CA) Mr. Hoagland, I feel you are mining the depths of scientif
ic
ignorance, with this phony issue. It is the nadir of anthroprocentric chauvan
ism
to believe some advanced civilization could detect the existence of man on th
is
planet and do nothing more than carve out a mountain that MIGHT be seen, by s
ome
tree dwelling mammal. How could THEY see so far ahead? GA.
(Dick H.) This goes to the heart of many issues, Paul I personally believe it
is
us who are acting slightly anthropocentric. We have an "image," a "model" fo
r
how "ET" is "supposed" to behave. If the "signal" we get doesn't fit that
"image," we -- NASA -- rejects it. So, which is more anthropocentric? To pur
sue
data where it leads. Or to say, "the data doesn't exist?"ga
(Paul J. Burke/CA) Aren't the Mars imagers dead? How can NASA take any more
photos?
(Dick H.) I don't see any connection. The material "ruins" are still there.
When Mars Observer gets there in 1993, all we want is the Cydonia Region
REIMAGED. The objects (there is FAR more than the "face") will still certain
ly
be there.ga
(Ted) Next
(Paul J. Burke/CA) I would agree to a 'side trip' on the next Mars mission,
(Dick H.) It's not even that complicated. Mars Observer will be in a POLAR
ORBIT. It will inevitably fly over EVERY SQUARE INCH OF MARS every 35 or 36
days. So, all NASA has to agree to is to take the images at the designated ti
me.
And they won't!ga
% Moderator recognizes queue #2
Bert <17>
(Ted) GA Bert
(Bert) Dick, do you know if the Soviets have an interest in Cydonia and do yo
u
have any information relating to the AP release (a month or so back) indicati
ng
the Soviets had observed something very strange on the surface of Mars? GA
(Dick H.) I put several items relating to the past research history of this i
nto
the Library earlier today (Ted, can tell you guys how to get them out!) I can
tell you this (as background to some of that material, which relates to past
dealings we've had with the Soviets on this issue. Last January, one of our t
eam
-- Dr. Brian O'Leary a former scientist-astronaut went personally to Moscow w
ith
the pictures. His mission: to try to get Sagdeev and others to take new image
s
with the Phobos spacecraft. They all sat there, looking at the Carlotto
enhancements and were VERY interested, according to O'leary. That was over a
year ago. Late last year, in December, just before the NASA briefing we did I
got a letter from a Soviet scientist whom we've been in direct contact with f
or
about a year. He's a specialist in "problems of extraterrestrial contact".
His
Ph.D. is in this particular subject, in fact! Anyway, HE said the new data wa
s
SO interesting, he was going to Sagdeev (then head of the unmanned Phobos
Mission) to try to get new images of Cydonia from Phobos 2. That was last
December I, of course, immediately shot back a reply telling him HOW the imag
es
might be taken (inclination of orbit to the equator, etc.) So far -- this is
MAY -- nothing. But the Soviet's HAVE announced some pretty peculiar things
around their Phobos mission including a Radio Moscow Report that Marty Arant
heard first-hand which had Orthodox Russian priests going into the Moscow Pho
bos
Control Center to "see the Phobos images of Mars and to talk about the creati
on.
You figure it out.ga.
(Ted) As Dick mentioned, there will be several files in LIB 10 of the ISSUES
forum tomorrow. Dick was furiously uploading document today and I have not
processed them all yet....
(Dick H.) "Furiously" is right.ga
(Ted) We will have only one ? each until all have had at least one chance. G
A
NEXT
% Moderator recognizes queue #3
DON <16>
(#DON) Ok Thanks Ted. Richard, I have just a simple question. I am presuming
that the majority of your work is concerned with the photos that were taken i
n
the early 70's, and are mostly concerned with the "face" and what you perceiv
e
as structures my question is this. How many independent computer photo
enhancements have been performed by independent facilities, other than the
Carlotto work and if this is so important why is there so much "infighting"
among the various people working on this, such as John Brandenbergs Cydonia
Features, and Vince Di Pietro and Greg Molenaar. Why is there no co-operatio
n?
ga
(Dick H.) I guess every time in the history of human affairs one comes up
against a problem that is really interesting very "human" problem will
inevitably raise there head. This is true, whether you work at the NSC, at NA
SA,
for the Civil Rights movement, or anything. The fact of the matter is we all
,
all of us who have been involved with this firmly are committed to one goal n
ow:
new images ASAP. That's got to be priority number uno. The rest of it -- whi
ch
says a lot about different emphasis on different aspects of the research is f
ar
less important than that point.ga
(DON) Ok, so how many independent research efforts have there been that confi
rms
your theory? Or is there only one? ga
(Dick H.) Good question. In "Monuments" I go into great detail on three
investigations. Each of these did some imaging. The first, of course, was
NASA! Surprised? It as NASA which first "found" this object, and put it on th
e
public record. It was only after that, that others namely DiPietro and
Molenarr, at Goddard, in 1979 did their "thing" -- found the SECOND,
corroborating frames taken of Cydonia at a higher sun-angle which has given u
s
such great data to actually work with. They did enhancements, published and
nothing much happened for EIGHT YEARS. Then, in 1983 I got the images, looked
at
them and realized that I was seeing not only a "face" but other things which
didn't belong there. That's when the third IMAGING investigation began -- at
SRI. Their Prime system did some excellent work, using digital copies of the
NASA Viking tapes. That's when we turned to a FOURTH source, for "independen
t
data" on the imaging: Mark Carlotto. Carlotto, I must say, has put the most
time and effort into extracting every bit of data from these tapes. And he's
brought not only new techniques to the imaging. He's also "attacked" the prob
lem
with new ideas -- such as the "fractal analysis" he's not done and submitted
to
the journals. And every time we use a new technique we turn up DATA not noi
se.
That, I believe, is trying to tell us something.ga
% Moderator recognizes queue #4
Stan Tenen <8>
(Stan Tenen) hi, Richard, this is Stan of meru. (I don't think I can squeeze
in
punctuation ). I have several questions; first, i think that you are focusin
g
on the wrong data; brilliant as Carlotto's analysis is, the best data , in my
opinion is Toruns. the alignments that he shows among the various strange
objects at Cydonia is very hard to explain for example: l the edges of the d&
m
pyramid are very fuzzy in the enhanced photos. I am not convinced by the phot
os
what is extraordinary is that the alignments of the d&m with the bulls eye an
d
the face and the cliff and the tholus are exactly redefine the fuzzy edges of
the d & m so it is not necessary to see it clearly - the alignments sharply
define the edges. Also, it is not hard to find very interesting alignments f
or
example; the cliff subtends the same angle from both the tip of the d & m and
from the city center bulls eye. That means that the edges of the cliff, which
are very well defined and the tip of the d & m and the bulls eye must lie on
the
same circle. By the way, what features has John Brandenberg found - I have n
ot
heard of his data before. Also, you mentioned base 3 and 3609 on the phone
earlier my calculations show 360 base 10 to equal 111100 base 3. 364 base 1
retry; 364 base 10 equals 111111 base 3, much more elegant. What say you. ga
(Dick H.) I don't know quite where to begin, Stan. Let me say, first, that yo
u
have confused some of the work just a bit. When I got into this, back in 198
3,
it was precisely because I thought I saw the potential for some remarkable
relationships between some intriguing objects at Cydonia. I put these ideas
into a VERY primitive numerical "model" in "Monuments" I called it the
"relationship model" and felt that if we were going to ever know at EXISTING
image resolution what we were dealing with it would only be through discovery
of
some very precise, provocative, and repeating numerical RELATIONSHIPS between
these objects. Little did I know that that day would arrive much sooner than
I
thought when I finished the book Erol, in the Fall of last year, in measuring
