SUBJECT: The Mickus/ Fenwick Interview -                     FILE: UFO2048






      On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian
      UFOlogist was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at
      the Toronto residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had
      previously agreed to this interview, with the full knowledge
      that it was being taped, and that the transcript would be
      released for distribution on the North American ParaNet System.

      He spoke for approximately 4 hours, of which approximately
      170 minutes were taped. During that time Larry spoke frankly
      and in some depth on a number of issues and events current
      to UFOlogy. The interview was done at my request, and Larry
      graciously assented to agree to the exchange, without any
      strings attached. Additionally, no money was exchanged.
      Although an interview, much the dialogue is in conversational
      style, appropriate for the informal setting which we were in.

      Regarding the content you are about to read, Larry neither
      makes the claim that this is original information, or
      that he knows all of it. But as you will see, he does have
      some pieces of the puzzle, in my estimation. Before the
      interview, I gave him every right to protect his sources,
      as well as have certain portions of the interview "off
      the record". While he has withheld some names, none of
      the substance of what we discussed was held back. Its
      all here for you to examine and evaluate.

      As I've mentioned, approximately 170 mins of our exchange
      was suppposed to have been on tape. However, after the
      interview, and to my extreme chagrin, I soon realized that
      the first 45 mins of the tape was almost blank, and the A-B,
      C-D order of the 4 sides seems to be haphazard. I am puzzled
      as to what happened, but at this point blame the recording
      device for screwing up...and of course also blame myself for
      not ensuring the integrity of the recording device, although
      the process was monitored throughout...and I am genuinely
      perplexed as to how this had happened. What I have therefore
      done, is to paraphrase the dialogue as much as possible, in
      order to bring out the 'highlights' of what we discussed in
      the first 45 mins. About one third of that had contained an
      in-depth bio of interviewee Larry Fenwick. Perhaps on a
      subsequent occasion, Larry can recount some of the
      information which we covered, a good portion which included
      commentary on the two recent TV productions, namely that of
      "UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - the Gulf Breeze segment", and of
      course "UFO-Coverup LIVE". For the time being, to the best
      of my recollection, some of what Larry brought up will be
      included in an appendix at the end of the formal transcript.

      One last note...this entire effort on my own part has
      consumed almost exclusively 4 days of my life. The transcibing
      process took close to 40 Hours, using simple tape recorders.
      Every effort has been made to insure the integrity of the
      dialogue of the part of Larry Fenwick. I can confidently say
      that I have reproduced accurately 99% of what Larry Fenwick
      said in the 125 mins of taped dialogue which was intact.
      The 40 Hours of time I think reflects this. My own dialogue,
      sparse as it is, is about 90% accurate. In some areas I have
      clarified my questions.

      Throughout, you will notice the use of square brackets [ ],
      these are added in by myself in areas that required some
      clarification...especially when certain mannerisms, inflection
      of speech, pause in speech etc., didn't "translate" into
      the written word sufficiently. Whereever you find words
      capitalized, that will indicate a word strongly emphasized,
      and indeed I have added this clarification in most of the
      instances.

      Lastly, although you may find some hints as to my interests
      and positions on various aspects of the UFO issue, I have
      not as yet come out in favour of, or against, most of what
      Larry Fenwick has said. For me, in part, the jury is still
      out. Having said that, I cannot help feel that much of what
      Larry Fenwick has enuciated here is quite significant. There
      should be enough information here for sleuthing armchair
      UFOlogists to get involved in, and to track down. The information
      conspiracy must end...the people must know. If what Larry and
      others say is true, even a part of it...then we don't have
      much time. In closing, I encourage you to spread the transcript
      of this file onto other Bulletin Board Systems. If it acts as
      a catalyst for action...pro or con...then it will have served
      its purpose.

                           -Tom Mickus  11/10/88


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[The transcript begins at the near the end of side 1...]






<Fenwick> "...on the air, and they went up and interviewed Robert
         Sufferin [sp?], and they got him on camera, and he was
         interviewed on Channel 9 [CFTO Toronto], on the local
         news. ...well there was a deluge of phone calls, and
         people started descending en masse, on Robert Sufferin's
         property. About 2,000 - 3,000 people descended onto his
         property. They were there day and night, from all over
         southern Ontario."

<Mickus> "And what year was this?"

<Fenwick> "1975. This was in October of '75. The agreement between
         the aliens and the American gov't, [with] the intelligence
         agencies, was made in June of that year."

<Mickus> "June of '75..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. Thats when the agreement was..., for the
         exchange of technology was made. One month to the date,
         after that 'event' occurred to Robert Sufferin, he got
         a telephone call from Falconbridge Air Force Base from
         a lieutenant, who asked if he and his wife would be
         willing to undergo psychological tests. A battery of tests.
         He agreed, so did his wife. They took him...I don't know
         when this occurred, fairly soon after that,...nor do I
         know where the tests were administered. I would assume
         somewhere in southern Ontario. They gave him tests, and
         so on. And a month later..."


                           [ tape change ]


<Fenwick> "...now the information that we found out, and that I
         just described, was as a result of an interview that
         Harry and Joe and I did with Robert Sufferin on his
         property. We weren't allowed to make to make notes,
         until we got into our car. No tape-recorders, no
         photographs. He talked extensively, for several hours,
         about UFOs in general, about various topics. This was
         the 2nd of two interviews done with him. I wasn't
         present at the first one..., there was a gentlemen by
         the name of Wayne Forsyth who was doing a documentary
         for public schools or high schools on UFOs, who was
         with Harry and Joe the first time he was interviewed,
         and his wife was also there. Now we only talked with
         Robert when I was there. He said...he told us about
         this incident [UFO hovering over his barn, and another
         one which landed for 'repairs' in the adjacent field,
         then both flew off after a short time...neighbor
         phoned Sufferin to tell him that he thought his barn
         was on fire, which it wasn't...the UFO hovering above
         was extremely bright and luminouscent], and he told
         us about the telephone call from Falconbridge Air
         Force Base, and about the incident where three men
         showed up in full military uniform on Dec.7th, 1975.

         They came in an O.P.P. [Ontario Provincial Police]
         cruiser, unmarked...an unmarked cruiser, driven by
         the head of the detachment of the O.P.P. Bracebridge,
         who has since denied that he was ever there, to one
         of our members [CUFORN] who was his best friend. In
         other words, he lied to his best friend. He said,
         'that no cruiser was ever sent up there...impossible.'
         The three men who visited him [Sufferin], one was the
         lieutenant from Falconbridge Air Force Base, the
         other two were from the United States. One from the
         Air Force Office of Special Investigations, AFOSI, and
         the other officer was from the Office of Naval
         Intelligence. As you know, OSI and the ONI are part of
         the Project Aquarius unit. They are all linked together,
         as you saw in the Oct. 14 television show. They brought
         with them a portfolio...a book...whether it was the
         'yellow book' written by the alien or not, I don't know.
         It was quite thick he said, hundreds of pages long."

<Mickus> "The yellow book goes back to..."

<Fenwick> "That was written by an alien, for the Americans."

<Mickus> "And when did they originally get that?"

<Fenwick> "They got that in 1975, in June of '75, under the agreement.
         The alien actually wrote it out...and it was used.
         ...Now what Robert was shown was a series of photographs,
         full colour, dating back to WW II...close-up photographs
         in broad daylight of UFOs...which were POSED [his emphasis]
         In other words, the aliens stopped the craft, and allowed
         pictures to be taken. And these were all gun-camera
         photographs, taken from jet aircraft...from various aircraft.
         A pile of them...a pile of them. And they were all 8 1/2
         by 10 glossies. He was shown these photographs. He was also
         told several things. They told him that when the incident
         occurred...right to the minute. He had not told his
         wife or his sister that he had noticed the exact time of
         this landing, or landings we should say, on his property.
         They told him why the landings occurred...what happened.
         There was a landing for repairs to one of the craft. The
         other one hovered over the barn...the one in the field
         had some problems...mechanical problems. It took off,
         finally it got out of there. They told him this, and he
         didn't know why [they were telling him]. And they
         apologized for the landing on his property, they told
         him why the UFOs are here on this planet...what they
         represent, and where they are from. They also told him
         that they knew of the previous two sightings he had had
         with his brother-in-law on several nights prior to that
         incident. They had been on his property and been looking
         out the window, and a couple of over-flights had occurred
         of UFOs. He hadn't told a soul about that, not even his
         wife, only his brother-in-law had known. So there is no
         way that they could have known, unless they were in contact
         with the aliens when it happened. They said that they had
         tracked these UFOs on radar..., at Air Force bases its done
         all the time, except that the 'unknowns' are never
         publicized. They always say when someone calls in and says,
         'We have a report of a UFO...did you track anything on your
         radio at Downsview Air Force Base or Falconbridge or
         Toronto International Airport...or ANY airport in the
         Western world?" Their orders are [to say] 'No.' Deny, deny
         deny...right down the line. And we surmised this ourselves
         although this was confirmed.

         The interview proceeded thusly, as Roberts said. They gave
         him a telephone number to call...and unlisted, unpublished
         telephone number to call in case there were any further
         incidents on his property. And they said that there had
         been an agreement...an agreement made with the aliens
         between the American government and the aliens. And they
         told him a few things about a long range program...or
         plan, a master plan they called it, which was underway.
         Now that's all that Robert Sufferin told us in 2 hours.
         We talked about things other than UFOlogy for most of the
         time. As we left the property...we were about 35-40 feet
         away from Bob, and he called out to us. This was in
         daytime, and we were going back to our car. He called out
         to us, [and] he made this statement...and we wrote it
         down in the car, 'What was the cause of WW II?'
         He had been told..., the classified information about the
         programming of Hitler..to cause WW II. And we did an
         article about the case, with the exception of that statement.
         As we thought it didn't fit in.

         And in 1982 we found out the information..which I have just
         told you. We are way ahead of the game as far as that TV
         show is concerned [UFO-Coverup LIVE]. We know a little about
         what was mentioned by Condor and Falcon, plus more. At
         that point in 1982 we found this information out. This was
         7 years after the Sufferin incident. We didn't interview
         Robert Sufferin until 1978 by the way. He had remembered
         what had occurred in 1975, a few years earlier. This is in
         the summer of '78. So...we had made the notes, and in 1982
         we had heard this information. In 1983 I was looking
         through some old files, and I came across the Sufferin
         incident...and we had written up an article on it [previously]
         in a small journal that Harry Tokarz had churned out on his
         own. It ran about 4 issues, it was called "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
         and he had mentioned this in an article. And I looked at
         the notes, and see in the margin there, "What was the
         cause of WW II", which I had written down in the margin.
         And I wrote down below that, 'What has this got to do with
         UFOs?'. At that time we didn't know. And later on we found
         out."

         "Bill Moore was in touch with Robert Sufferin by phone, in
         our presence. He phoned him. We gave him the phone number."

<Mickus> "In 1982?"

<Fenwick> "No...actually this was in 1981. He was here in Toronto, and
         he called Bob up in Utterson, Ontario, where Bob lived at
         the time. Bob still owns the property, but we don't know
         where he lives now, he's moved around a bit. So Bill Moore
         talked to him on the phone...we didn't hear what Bob said
         on the other end of the line, but Bill said that he
         confirmed what I suspected. Bill had heard a little bit
         in 1980. He got the documents in 1982 on Aquarius and this
         sort of thing...MJ-12. But he had heard a little bit. The
         agreement was mentioned. I know that Bill mentioned the
         agreement on the phone..., he knew about that. How?, I
         don't know. But that was the clue. Now I asked Bill..."

<Mickus> "The world war II thing?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. That programming had been done."

<Mickus> "Just to clarify...did someone ask him this question?"

<Fenwick> "No...this was separate [from the interview]. As we were
         leaving, he just blurted that out. Robert Sufferin just
         blurted it out."

<Mickus> "So he just said it to you [unsolicited]?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, out loud. He yelled it out after us as we were
         walking back toward our car."

<Mickus> "And that was it?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that was all. We didn't ask him. What the hells he
         talking about [they said to each other]. We just walked
         on to the car...made a note of it,...I wrote down right
         behind the note, 'What has this got to do with UFOs?'
         We couldn't see any connection at all at that time. And
         it was only in 1983 that I happened to come across the
         statement that I had written out in the rough notes for
         that article which was done for that "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
         magazine. My goodness, that was it. The year before we
         had found out about the connection. In '83 I saw that
         little note, and I said, 'My God...he was told the truth'.

         And later on...in 1982 there was this symposium...the
         MUFON symposium in Toronto at the Westbury Hotel. I
         talked to Bill Moore privately at that point. He was
         one of the speakers there...and I helped run the
         convention a little bit, and I said to Bill, 'You know
         the Robert Sufferin case?" He said [Moore], "Yeah, I
         remember that." [Fenwick] Because he had read the whole
         article, and so on; and I had told him what had transpired
         and so on, and he was quite interested in that. And I
         said to him, '...when those three military officers
         talked to Sufferin, they really gave him everything on
         this Project Aquarius, it seems to me.' Then I said to
         Bill, 'Do you think that this has happened prior to...a
         month or two prior to somebody else maybe?' [making
         reference to the 1975 Sufferin incident] And he said,
         'Yeah, in the United States it happened twice, between
         June and October' [1975]. Two other people were told
         in the United States the same information was given to
         them."

<Mickus> "In 1975?"

<Fenwick> "In '75 yes, just after that."

<Mickus> "So those two would have been before the agreement [U.S.-
         EBE agreement] then, right?"

<Fenwick> "No, the agreement was in June of 1975. The Robert
         Sufferin case occurred on October 7th. Somewhere between
         June and October of '75, two other close encounters
         occurred in the United States in which aliens had
         nearly been killed...by a car or whatever, I don't
         know how. But Bill wouldn't go into detail on that. I
         questioned him, but he refused to go into any detail
         on that. He knew about it...through Condor and Falcon.
         And it was a test of the psychological reactions of
         people to the fact that we are the ETs [in reference to
         earlier statements by Fenwick as to our alien heritage]
         ...this is not our home planet."

<Mickus> "So that was the reason for spilling the beans to these
         three, relatively simple folk?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, thats right. And there's something else also...
         When Tracy Torme visited Toronto, he worked for CTV
         [Canadian Television Network], he was a script-writer
         for them; he arranged in advance, through Bill Moore, to
         visit us...in my apartment in fact. And he talked a little
         bit about what he had heard. Later on he told us all that
         I have told you...through Bill. He got it through Bill
         Moore. We asked him what the classified information would
         mean to the human race. What areas of the human race...of
         human endeavour or aspects of human interest [that] would
         be most affected if ALL the information about Project
         Aquarius came out in the open. And he unhesitatingly said,
         'Religion.' He said that there would be mass suicides,
         those who were extremely religious among the Christian
         community would commit suicide. And he said, anthropology,
         ..Science would be heavily affected by it. Anthropology,
         History..., you take just WW II [for example]. If the
         historians knew that...and they are not on a need to know
         basis, they are not going to be told unless the entire
         world knows. This would create one of the biggest upheavals
         in all the universities, and all the history teachers in
         the world, and professors, would really be astounded if
         they knew that that was fact. And he said that a lot people
         wouldn't believe it if it were told to the public. There
         would be some panic, there would be suicides. I said, 'well
         maybe there wouldn't be that many', but he said [Torme]
         'Yes, there would be a fair number...in the millions'.
         But there are billions of people in the world, so that
         percentage wise its not a lot. But, 'This is why,' he
         said [speaking again of Torme] 'the information is not
         being told to the public. Because it would affect people
         too adversely.'"

<Mickus> "The War-of-the-Worlds syndrome?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that's right. That is their mental attitude...the
         people in Project Aquarius who don't want the information
         released,...not [the attitude] of the 10 people who have
         talked [Condor & Falcon being 2 of the 10] out of the 24.
         There are 24 people in Aquarius, total. 10 of the 24 have
         talked. The other 14 don't want the information released
         because they have that attitude...War-of-the-World's
         thing...mass panic and so on. And I think that in the
         atomic age that we live in, we're passed that stage...if
         you can learn to live with the Bomb...and not worry that
         much outwardly...maybe inwardly I guess. This generation
         is used to that threat hanging over them. If they heard
         this information, it wouldn't upset this generation, the
         present generation as much. And this attitude of the
         younger generatiomn...of not being upset too much about
         it is why those people have talked, why the rebels have
         talked." By the way, the rebels are Vietnam veterans."

<Mickus> "All 10 of them?"

<Fenwick> "All of them. They're all Nam veterans."

<Mickus> "And what is the range of rankings, and their ages?"

<Fenwick> "From Colonel up to..., well one of them is a 2-star
         General. I don't know any names. I know Condor is a
         black man by the way. They were in Nam, and they saw
         their own officers kill their own men under the
         influence of drugs. And they decided that whatever they
         did in peacetime, somehow they would get back at the
         American government. They all...these happened by
         coincidence, or not,...to all get involved in the UFO
         phenomenon. And these people in Aquarius are full-time
         on it. And they decided..., they got together...over a
         period of time, very clandestinely,...and word went
         from one to another, [in effect agreeing that they]
         '...would approach someone neutral in the UFO field,
         someone who is not affiliated with any major
         organizations, someone who is reliable...' And they
         picked on Bill Moore. And he got a telephone call
         from one of them, and they arranged to meet...I think
         it was at a 'McDonalds' in fact...in Phoenix if I'm
         not mistaken. Bill mentioned this."

         "There's a lot of information that we have gotten.
         Now, Tracy Torme told us that he had heard this from
         Bill Moore, and Bill was under sedation for back
         trouble. Bill started talking...and didn't realize it.
         And Tracy told us, 'Don't tell ANYONE that you got
         the information from Bill Moore. And to this day, Bill
         Moore doesn't know that we got it through Tracy. He
         wasn't supposed to reveal it. He told us about 15%...
         15% of the classified information under Project Aquarius."

<Mickus> "That he [Torme] knows?"

<Fenwick> "That he knows. He knows all of it. So does Bill Moore,
         Bill told him everything."

<Mickus> "Torme knows all of it?"

<Fenwick> "Torme knows all of it, and so does Moore. Bill Moore
         told Torme this. Torme is, by the way the son, the oldest
         son of Mel Torme the singer. I've met Mel in town here
         one time. This is what he told us. He said [Tracy], 'I
         can't tell you anymore.' And he later on told Moore to...
         [?] ..Harry and Joe near New York city. They drove down
         there with their wives or girlfriends whatever, and they
         met him in a motel...and he started talking...and he
         wouldn't allow them to make notes. Nothing, just verbal.
         Hear it, and remember it. And he told me when they came
         back. Outdoors we were walking along the street one night,
         and it's dark, and they're telling me when no one was
         around...there was no one within sight, in the area I
         live in. So that no one would over hear...not that a
         satellite couldn't pick-up the conversation...but
         certainly no one on the ground, so they were careful in
         that respect."

         One thing you have to remember, when you are talking about
         the UFO phenomenon...and here I'm showing my conservative
         bent..., and that is, let us suppose that the information
         posed by Condor and Falcon on that show, and told to Bill
         Moore, is all false. That everything is false. Its all
         disinformation...or what's know in as 'grey' propaganda,
         a bit of truth mixed in with a lot of phony things. Let
         us suppose that all of this, all of what I have said to
         you about Project Aquarius...[that] the classified
         information supposedly, is all false. If in fact it was
         deliberately promulgated to test a reaction among
         UFOlogists to this sort of information, as to whether they
         could follow-up on it...or find out whether it is true
         or not. That in itself would be of interest to people in
         the UFO field. This is one of the reason's why I am talking
         about this information. If its all false, its certainly a
         most interesting scenario. And the motivations behind the
         spreading of...lies, from a psychological point of view, it
         certainly is quite interesting. So I must...as I say...I must
         predicate, I must be conservative here, predicate what I
         have said as an afterword shall we say, with that statement.

         All of what I've said, I'm sure is interesting to people.
         Some of it to some people might be unbelievable, some of it
         might be astonishing, some of the people might agree with
         some of the things said, [saying to themselves], 'that sounds
         plausible'. But when you use 'grey' propaganda, you mix in
         plausible things with things that are false. That was done
         with that television program show in England, called,
         "Alternative 3"...they mixed in a few facts with a lot of
         baloney. I have a letter from the guy who wrote the script,
         on how they dreamed it up at lunch-time one day."

<Mickus> "Its interesting that you mention that. John Lear was one
         of the first people I met on ParaNet, and we had a bit of a
         dialogue on that very subject. I ended up finding a short
         paragraph on it in a movie compendium [see A3MOVIE.TXT in the
         UFOlogy File Area], and it ended basically by saying that
         the movie was only fiction, but that people still view it
         as being true."

<Fenwick> "There are still people who believe it. And there have been
         mysterious deaths in England lately among people involved
         with defense contracts, computer scientists. And I've got
         newspaper clippings from England on that, just this last
         week. So there is a bit of truth mixed in."

<Mickus> "Which elements in the movie do you think are true?"

<Fenwick> "Well, obviously that people have died, but whether they
         are coincidental or not, we don't know."

<Mickus> "What about this thing about a Moonbase?"

<Fenwick> "No. I don't think so. I've talked to Buzz Aldrin about that
         on the phone. And I said, "Ah, somebody's trying to dream up
         a story for the National Enquirer...what nonsense.' [Aldrin
         said] 'I didn't see any bases on the moon while we were up
         there on Apollo 11, thats' a lot of nonsense.' He denied it.
         Technically there could be bases on the moon underground, NASA
         has the capabilities now, they had them years ago. In the
         1960's I wrote a full page article for "Daily Commercial News"
         on underground construction on the moon, I still have a copy
         of the article. All the technical data is available in the
         Toronto Public Library. I did research for weeks and weeks on
         that."

<Mickus> "The hard part is getting the equipment up there."

<Fenwick> "Thats all. But the actual installation and so on, is not too
         difficult."

<Mickus> "What other elements of the A3 Movie would you see as...."

<Fenwick> "Factual? That's all. I've given them to you. That's all."

<Mickus> "Now, these people who are coming up missing, what's
         happening to them. They are being killed because of what
         they know?"

<Fenwick> "I think that that's a Soviet thing. I think the Soviets are
         involved in those..., those murders...those deaths, those
         mysterious deaths in England lately."

<Mickus> "Oh, so you don't see those being related in anyway to goings
         on in the field of UFOlogy?"

<Fenwick> "No, not at all."

<Mickus> "So the A3 Movie then, there's really no relation at all to.."

<Fenwick> "...not to UFO's."

<Mickus> "Its more an East-West thing?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, primarily that. And a test of reactions I suppose, as
         some suspect, by the producers of the show, that's all. They
         wanted to see how people would take it."

<Mickus> "And that's a recurring theme..."

<Fenwick> "I know it is. I have a whole file on A3...Alternative 3, a
         thick file...ending with a letter from the producers."

<Mickus> "Saying that..."

<Fenwick> "Saying that its all a hoax. That they dreamed it up over
         lunch one day. I have it on their official letterhead of
         their production company."

<Mickus> "And you said that Torme was interested in it?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, he hadn't seen the movie. It wasn't shown in the
         states, it was shown in Canada twice on Global TV in
         southern Ontario."

<Mickus> "When did he get in touch with you, years ago?"

<Fenwick> "No. Just a month ago. He happened to mention it."

<Mickus> "He's probably gotten that from Lear then..."

<Fenwick> "Oh yeah. Lear tends to repeat what he [has] heard. Lear
         doesn't in terms of a lot of information on UFOs. Linda
         Howe has told me that she was in touch with Lear...and
         that they had all kinds of problems there..."

<Mickus> "...and disagreements?"

<Fenwick> "Disagreements, yes. One's repeating what the other says.
         Back and forth, then it spreads around and so on. Rumours...
         and things get exaggerated with a rumour, and this is what
         has happened with Richard Doty...the Richard Doty case."

<Mickus> "Have you read the so called Lear document, the Lear text?"

<Fenwick> "No."

<Mickus> "Okay...but what you've heard about John Lear, he's
         basically repeating things from other sources."

<Fenwick> "Sure. He's not doing any research himself."

<Mickus> "And from what you know of what he's said, I should
         probably give you the Lear.txt as to actually read as
         he makes a quite a number of claims..."

<Fenwick> "I've heard some of the claims through Linda Howe. Linda
         Moulton Howe."

<Mickus> "Which of what you heard would you say he is correct or
         wrong about?"

<Fenwick> "I've heard too much...too go into detail"

<Mickus> "What about some of the highlights...crashed disks, there
         are supposed to be 30 crashed disks [in the hands of the
         U.S. Government]."

<Fenwick> "Well, I've heard that years ago. It was an estimate. It
         was a guess, that's all. And these guess's get exaggerated
         and passed around from one UFOlogist to another. From
         someone maybe who's in casual conversation with another,
         [and says] 'Maybe there are about 30 of them crashed, who
         knows.' And before you know it, its THIRTY."

<Mickus> "Personally, how many do you think?"

<Fenwick> "The Roswell one is definite. Also the one at Elindeo [sp?]
         Texas, on the Mexican border is definite..."

<Mickus> "And what year is the second one?"

<Fenwick> "1980. And then in 1948, the one in Kingmon [sp?] Arizona.
         that's a definite one. And I think maybe the one other one
         is in Syracuse, New York...in 1967. Those are the only ones
         I know of, although I've heard rumours about one in the
         Rockies in Canada in 1952. Rumours. Indirect contacts with
         someone who is there, this sort of thing."

<Mickus> "And all these crashed due to mechanical problems...none
         of them have been shot down?"

<Fenwick> "Yes [mechanical problems], except for Roswell. Roswell
         wasn't a mechanical problem, Roswell was a lightning
         strike. And also there was another crash that occurred in
         Michigan, Hillsdale. Dexter Michigan...where Gerald Ford
         got involved in calling for a congressional investigation.
         That was a crash. That was landing for repairs, put it
         that way."

<Mickus> "And the one about the farmer's case you mentioned, where
         it landed and took off..."

<Fenwick> "That wasn't actually a crash, but a landing for repairs.
         same in England. That one at Bentwaters, that was a landing
         for repairs...and it was repaired, and they took off again."

<Mickus> "Okay, you mention Bentwaters. Maybe we can get into that
         a bit. Now do you believe that's true, about what supposedly
         happened?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes."

<Mickus> "Maybe if you would recount..."

<Fenwick> "Well I'm recounting investigations done by other people.
         I don't like to do that, its second hand information."

<Mickus> "But you basically believe that..."

<Fenwick> "An alien craft landed for repairs, and was assisted in
         its repairs by the commander, Commander Williams of the
         Air Force base there. Gordon Williams."

<Mickus> "And how many were there?"

<Fenwick> "I had heard that there were more than one, lets put it
         that way."

 <Mickus> "And how many air force personnel do you believe
          witnessed this..."

<Fenwick> "It depends on what part you're talking about, the
         underground meeting, or the above ground meeting.
         There were at least a dozen people involved in that
         case. And there were military policeman involved. One
         chap who wasn't there, who claimed originally to have
         been there, was a fellow named Larry Warren. He actually
         heard it from someone else, another military policeman
         who was at the underground meeting with the Men In Black
         [MIB] supposedly. Giving instructions."

<Mickus> "But not much is known about that meeting?"

<Fenwick> "No, its only referred to very briefly in the book by
         Jenny Randles and Dot Street, 'Skycrash'. There's
         another authoress, but I've forgotten her name. I think
         there's about one or two sentence about that in the
         whole book. And that was probably the most important
         aspect of it...and they couldn't get any more information
         on that. I've got an unpublished manuscript by Larry
         Warren at home...part of one chapter really...about 10
         pages. He's writing a book, so he said that this is not
         for publication...and he talked about some of his
         experiences, not there...but as a Military policeman
         being transferred to some secret NSA facilities in
         Egypt, and another one in Florida."

<Mickus> "Connected with..."

<Fenwick> "Connected with he doesn't know what. Every American and
         Canadian Air Force Base has underground facilities. If
         anything were to go in or out, it would be like 3 or 4
         in the morning. A UFO comes in for repairs, or whatever.
         If you want to deal in rumour...I was on a bus one day
         downtown. It was night and I was the only guy on the
         bus, and talking to the driver I mentioned UFOs. He said,
         'Oh, I wonder if there is any connection with my friend.
         This guy I know is a janitor up at Downsview Air Force
         Base. And he's in the underground facilities. He said
         that you would be amazed as to what's under there', but
         he wouldn't go on any further about that. I questioned
         him further, but he said he didn't know any more than
         that."

<Mickus> "You've obviously heard the claims about the underground
         bases, in Nevada..."

<Fenwick> "...Nellis Air Force Base. That is the main facility
         in Nevada... Apparently that is near Area #51, or
         'Dreamland' as its known. But its not on the map.
         You'll find Nellis on the map, but you won't find
         Dreamland or Area #51 on the map. Its all in the area
         where they test the UFOs that are lent to them. There
         was one which supposedly crashed in 1984, killing the
         Commander, General Robert Bond. And it was on the
         front page of the Toronto Star [Major Canadian Daily]
         as a crash of a steath weapon. That's how they
         publicize it. And even Walt Andrus said that that was
         a Stealth weapon...the head of MUFON. Actually it was
         a UFO lent to the Americans in 1975, and test flown
         all the way up through 1984, when it crashed killing
         the pilot, General Robert Bond. If its something
         classified, not necessarily stealth, but a UFO lets
         say...then you wouldn't have anyone less than a general
         flying it. It would be on a need to know basis, you
         wouldn't have an ordinary pilot. And when he died, his
         wife was told, his family was told that [there] was
         a crash of an American Air Force plane...which was
         classified, that's all, not a UFO. But is was a UFO.
         It had been fitted with jets, but there was a problem
         with controls."

         "The same with that case in Texas, where those two women
         and the boy..., the Cash-Landrum case. That was one of
         the craft lent to them, the diamond-shape one. So they
         have different kinds of..."

<Mickus> "So they way it was presented on the show [UFO-Coverup]
         was basically correct?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, it was an alien craft. There's no question
         about that. That's what it was. And I had suspected
         this for quite some time with John Schussler [sp?]
         who had written about this, and lectured about this
         at various symposia. I mentioned this, along with
         Harry and Joe...all three of us said to John, and
         he's with NASA...he worked on the original Shuttle
         program, and he's semi-retired now with MacDonnel
         Douglas. He's a program director for the shuttle
         mission...one of the early shuttle missions. And
         we mentioned our theory that it was an alien craft.
         And he said, 'I don't think so.'...but now he KNOWS.
         That's what it was...there's no question thats what
         it was...even though the television show said that
         maybe it was an American secret weapon, or maybe it
         was an alien craft. They left it up in the air. But
         it was an alien craft, there's no much doubt about
         that."

         "So...over the years you hear all these stories, and
         unless you've been there, unless you were there when
         the thing happened...that's all they are, Stories.
         Second-hand, third-hand information and so on. Unless
         you're like Bill Moore, or the people in Project
         Aquarius who are on this full-time, you're not going
         to find out the truth. You're going to hear what is
         purported to be the truth. You'll hear second-hand
         stories...you'll hear newspaper accounts...."

         "Now here's something that you might not know, and
         that is...in relationship to the media, about publicity
         of UFOs, you don't see too much in the daily papers
         about UFOs, not very much. You do see, almost every week
         in the tabloids...tabloid magazines, articles about..oh,
         'Aliens Found in Soviet Tundra' or whatever...you know,
         all sorts of stories. There are various publications in
         the United States. One is called 'The Sun', you have
         another one called 'The National Examiner', another one
         called 'The Globe', another one called 'Weekly World News',
         and there is the "National Enquirer", and 'The Star'."

         "The history of those publications, just briefly...
         The National Enquirer was the original, the original
         tabloid, the largest circulation newspaper in the world
         incidentally. The Weekly World News and The National
         Enquirer are published by the same company. The publisher
         ...is with the Central Intelligence Agency. He is...I
         believe, Deputy Chief of one of the Divisions to do with
         counter-intelligence. When The National Enquirer and The
         Weekly World News publish a UFO story, it is true. [With]
         the other publications, they are copies of The National
         Enquirer. They [other publications] hire freelance writers
         who use phony names and bylines, and print stories which
         are false, in most instances. 90% of those stories in The
         National Examiner, and The Globe, and The Sun, and The Star
         ...The Star doesn't publish that sort of thing anymore but
         they used to...; are phony stories. Now, if you were to
         publish the stories that are in The National Enquirer, and
         The Weekly World News, on the front page of The New York
         Times or The Washington Post or The Globe & Mail, it
         would really upset people. But if you publish them in
         tabloids...where all the stories are sensational...at least
         the headlines are sensational, then they don't stand out,
         and they don't frighten people. People tend to laugh at them
         and say 'Oh well, its all phony'. But if you are in the UFO
         field, you find out that stories are not phony. You follow
         up on them, and you find out that they are actual cases.
         The general public doesn't know that they are."

<Mickus> "But the names of Doctors, etc., within the articles are..."

<Fenwick> "...True. In The [National] Enquirer and The Weekly World
         News."

<Mickus> "The actual names are true?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Those are the real names. But in the other journals,
         The Examiner, The Globe, The Sun, they put phony names all
         the way through and phony stories, and so on. Even the
         writers are using phony names."

<Mickus> "Do you know the publisher's name off-hand? Its listed of
         course..."

<Fenwick> "No, I know that he's a 'Jr.', his father has the same
         name. All you have to do is look in The National Enquirer
         and you'll see the publisher's name there."

<Mickus> "In that particular magazine, is it just him himself, or
         are there other's involved too?"

<Fenwick> "No, just him himself. He gets the stories from Aquarius...
         and from MJ-12."

<Mickus> "The rebels, or the..."

<Fenwick> "The rebels. I think he's working with them. I'm not certain
         about that, I can't be certain about that...maybe not. And
         publishes them [UFO stories] to see what kind of reaction
         they get from the readers...[to see] who sends in letters
         to those articles."

<Mickus> "Okay...before we follow-up on the media thing; MJ-12 has
          24 members?"

<Fenwick> "No. 12. Project Aquarius has 24 members. Two different
          groups."

<Mickus> "Now what's their relationship?"

<Fenwick> "A direct relationship. Project Aquarius is the overall
         umbrella organization. MJ-12, Majestic Twelve are the
         people who work with ONI on field investigations. They
         go to the crash sites; they have the meetins with the
         aliens, along with Aquarius people. Aquarius people
         don't get involved with the crashes. The MJ-12 people
         do that...they are scientists, and military people and
         so on. They work as a team. They are flown out...at a
         moments notice...from wherever they are."

<Mickus> "The MJ-12 Group?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. The Aquarius people, they do the overall supervision
         of the MJ-12 people. And they get information from all
         sorts of sources, like the CIA, the DIA, and so on... the
         National Intelligence Agency and so on. And they are the
         umbrella organization. They co-ordinate everything. The
         Navy does the field investigations along with MJ-12.
         There's always someone from the Navy on MJ-12. Usually
         the Secretary of the Navy...someone big like that. So
         they get an overall view on Aquarius of what's going on.
         And they decide the policy."

         "But...since 1975 they have NOT been deciding policy. The
         aliens...the EBEs...tell the people at Project Aquarius
         how to handle the whole thing. Under the agreement...'Do
         Not Reveal Our Presence, or We Will Interfere With Your
         History.' And it was mentioned on that TV show [UFO Coverup]
         ...and they ARE going to interfere in our History, that is
         why we are going to have World War III."

         "Now getting back...I'm going to digress a little bit.
         There were three books written in the last 8 years. By
         a fellow from Northern Ireland with the initials, W.A.
         Harbinson. According to...I can't recall who told me this,
         whether it was Bill Moore or Tracy Torme...worked [Harbinson]
         with the National Security Agency. He wrote three books. One
         called 'Genesis', which talks about the Nazi's in the South
         Pole...developing UFO's and this sort of thing; a rather
         interesting book. And if you read the end of the book, its
         a fictional book...until you read the end there is about
         12 pages of footnotes. References to 'samizdat'...the neo-Nazi
         group in Toronto, and their publications...and a lot of Nazi
         books, a lot of military books by a fellow by the name of
         Walther Horndorffer [sp?], and several other books, quite a
         few books actually mentioned there, and famous books on
         UFOlogy. All this information comes from those books...but
         if you didn't go to the appendix at the end of the book, you
         wouldn't know that if you had just read the novel and said,
         'the heck with the rest of it, I won't bother reading it',
         you wouldn't realize that that's all based on fact. The
         names have been changed in most cases."

         "Then he wrote another book called 'Revelation'. And a third
         book called 'The Light of Eden'. I've read all three books.
         And I think that they are a TEST of how people would react
         to those books, [as in] how many people had written to the
         author...what did they have to say about it...how much do
         they know. They are trying to find out who might know, who
         has found out some of this classified information that
         shouldn't know. Now, the second book 'Revelaton'...there's
         a lot of sex in these books, the third book particularly..
         each one had sexual stories in it, a couple of stories,
         very explicit stuff though. The second book 'Revelation',
         takes place in a little town; which is in existence, is
         called Armageddon in Israel. And what happens...now this
         is supposedly in 1990...at that town there is a confrontation
         between two individuals...I use the word individuals, lets
         say entities or individuals. Just prior to that there has
         been a bomb explosion at the most holy shrine of the Muslims
         [in Mecca]. The bomb has been thrown by a muslim...and the
         Jews are blamed. A holy war, or jihad is underway at that
         point, and the Americans and Soviets come in with everything
         they've got. And there's a war between the Americans and
         the Soviets...and the Arabs and the Jews, all together."

         "The Soviets leave their country unprotected...meanwhile
         the Chinese come in and invade the Soviet Union and
         takeover the country. Takeover the entire Soviet Union.
         Takeover the entire country."

<Mickus> "This is all detailed in the book of course..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. Part of it. Part of it I got from another source,
         from a former member [CUFORN], now deceased. The two
         individuals I mentioned earlier are the Anti-christ or
         Devil...the devil incarnate shall we say. And the Jewish
         Saviour, not Christ. The real Jewish Saviour who has yet
         to arrive according to the Jewish Talmud [Note: Some
         Christian Fundamentalists would view such a figure as the
         biblical 'False Prophet'] He will arrive in our time.
         That will be 1990, its only 2 years from now. At that
         location, in the midst of the war...war will have been
         underway...and it will not be a nuclear war to start with,
         but it will end up that way on July 7th, 1999...a nuclear
         war between the Chinese and the Americans. And we will all
         be 'gone' with the exception of certain people who had
         been abducted, who will supposedly be taken off this
         planet by mother ships, large carrier craft [to be] taken
         somewhere else and maybe brought back somehow, or taken
         to some other planet. Maybe they will be cryogenetically
         frozen or something, I don't know. Taken to another 'time'
         and brought back to planet Earth when all the radiation
         has died down in 200 or 300 years...and woken up whatever,
         I don't know how they do it...maybe re-seed the planet,
         whatever they do. But get the abductees of here for some
         reason...maybe genetic...maybe they are going to inter-
         breed, create a muscular species. The species [EBEs] don't
         have much muscles."

<Mickus> "There's already inter-breeding going on."

<Fenwick> "Yes, there is inter-breeding already going on....When men
         and women are abducted their is ova extracted, and semen
         extracted and so on. This is going on for various reasons.
         But genetically, they want to improve their...,get a
         hybrid race that will have their brains, and our muscles.
         Basically they are very weak, physically. But they have
         a lot of mental capacity...they can lift all kinds of
         objects with their minds; they are so powerful with their
         telekinetic abilities. So I think that when you read these
         books...the three books by Harbinson, you are being tested.
         Now, getting back to Armageddon... The war between the
         Arabs and the Jews, and the Soviets and the Americans...
         all involved at once; will last 9 years. The Soviet Air
         Force, Army and Navy...everything will be wiped out by
         the Americans. The Americans will win that battle...the
         Jews will win the battle. The Arabs and the Soviets will
         be wiped out...everything will be gone."

<Mickus> "That they've sent there..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. Everything is wiped out. The Soviets will have
         nothing left in the Soviet Union. They'll have sent
         everything they've got to Israel. Everything. They'll
         have left themselves defenceless because they figure
         that this is the opportune time to takeover that area,
         which is oil-rich. Obviously they would want that, so
         they will pull out all the stops. And the war will last
         from 1990 to 1999. On July 7th of 1999, the nuclear
         holocaust will occur. That's the date that Nostradamus
         predicted in his book...books, in his predictions.
         That very date."

<Mickus> "Are you going off that, or is that just a coincidence?"

<Fenwick> "I'll tell you something else, this is from another source.
         I mentioned a deceased member of our organization...his
         name is Charlie Alcock Charlie has a fascinating history
         If you've ever heard of Alcock & Brouwn, they flew the
         Atlantic before Lindburgh, as a team. Sir Charles Alcock,
         was Charlie Alcock's first cousin. Charlie was a pilot who
         flew in various air races, in Cleveland...various races,
         etc. He flew for won a race for England, and was given an
         escorted Helicopter tour of London, with Price Phillip at
         the controls, and was given a surprise dinner with the
         Royal Family. He ran a joke shop of all things, while
         living here in Toronto. He had died of a second stroke."

         "He had had a sighting of a UFO and had told his friend who
         happened to be Commander of Wordsmith [sp?] Air Force Base
         in Michigan, around Sudbury [Ontario] when they went skeet
         shooting one time. The friendship was terminated at that
         point. When Charlie talked to me, he said that the commander
         said, 'I'm not going to get together with you anymore, I
         don't want to talk about UFOs, and if you are going to talk
         this way, forget our friendship.' And that was it. Charlie
         said, 'Goodbye, I don't need you anymore.' When Charlie had
         his first stroke, he was sent to a Toronto hospital. He
         was up at ambulatory at the time, and 4 people from CUFORN
         interviewed him and tape-recorded the conversation, a 1-hour
         tape which I have at home. He had a Men-Black-Incident [MIB]
         in the hospital. He had talked to someone about the UFO
         event in the hospital, one of the other patients. And just
         the night after that he had a visit in his bedside at night
         by an entity all dressed in black...who warned him not to
         talk any further about this."

<Fenwick> "Charlie mentioned something on the tape which I have,
         of an incident which took place in the 1930's, when he
         was in high school in grade nine."

         "Some thought came to him during class, something about
         in the future. He doesn't know how it came to him. He
         started doodling, and did some drawings. The teacher
         saw him doodling, took a look at the pictures, and then
         confiscated them. After the class, Charlie was asked to
         stay, and the teacher asked him what were the drawings.
         He said they just came to me. She then went to speak to
         the principal about the drawings."

         "What Charlie had drawn was a map of the world. And in
         very large drawing form he draw a series of tanks. And
         in front of each tank there was a large plexi-glass sort
         of shield, through the plexi-glass shield there was an
         opening, through those openings are what looked like
         laser beams shooting out...now this was in the 1930's.
         And the tanks were placed in a sequence, one after
         another...coming from China into the Soviet Union. And
         on several other places on the map, he didn't remember
         where...there were several mushroom shaped clouds. The
         principal did not let it stand at that point. He called
         Ottawa. The next day an official, I don't know at what
         rank, from the Department of National Defense, showed
         up and started talking to Charlie. Here's a grade 9
         kid talking to someone from the Ministry of National
         Defense, who asked him where he got these ideas. Charlie
         said, 'I had a dream I think, maybe it came from that
         dream. And I started drawing what I had seen in the
         dream.' He had dreamt the future...he had dreamt about
         World War III. And the DND now knows."

<Mickus> "Do you have the drawings?"

<Fenwick> "No. They were confiscated. The one drawing may still
         be in a file somewhere in Ottawa. And Charlie described
         this to us, and he said, ' I think I may have had a
         premonition of the future at that time.' And someone in
         the 1930's at DND must have known something important...
         about Einstein, and maybe a bomb could be developed from
         E=mc2 or something. Maybe Einstein had been in touch
         with some scientists in Ottawa...who knows? And maybe
         that was why that trip was made down from Ottawa to
         Toronto to visit this grade 9 kid. And that is quite a
         story. Now, Charlie worked at Camp X, where spies were
         trained in WW II. He knew what was going on at Camp X,
         he had met David Niven out there, and a few other people
         who were trained as spies in Europe. He had quite a story
         to tell, and its all on this tape anyway. But thats all
         that Charlie had to say in relationship to...what turns
         out to be, or may turn out to be Project Aquarius
         information...classified information, about what is to
         happen in our future."

<Mickus> "Getting back to the Harbinson books, I got the sense
         too, cause I've just finished reading 'The Light of Eden'
         Are you saying that certain elements of what he is saying
         is true? For instance, Harbinson seems to go off of Robert
         K. Temple's book 'The Sirius Mystery'. He believes that
         they're [aliens] are from there..."

<Fenwick> "...well some of them are."

<Mickus> "...and that they have been coming in different periods
         of our history to..."

<Fenwick> "Interfacing, causing things to happen. Well Sirius is one
         of the sources. Zeta Reticuli is one supposedly, and Sirius
         is another, and the Pleiades maybe another one. I've heard
         about one or two others, but mostly these ones."

<Mickus> "But you personally would lean towards..."

<Fenwick> "I would say Zeta Reticuli is the most logical one because
         that was in the Betty and Barney Hill case. That was
         discovered later on, years later once they researched it.
         Thats where they were from. Sirius is probably the second
         [likeliest] possibility. The Pleiades one is a very
         controversial one. That's the Eduard Meier Swiss case,
         which may or may not be true. I just got a book of some
         of the writings of the Pleiades people given to Meier,
         about 150 pages [which contain] some of the things that
         were not on the three videos that were produced in
         connection with the Meier case, which I have at home."

<Mickus> "How does this mesh with the 'failed experiment'
         [referring to what we talked about in the first 45 mins
         of the interview which was 'lost'], because a lot of
         the talk is that we are entering into a 'new age' of..."

<Fenwick> "...the Age of Aquarius. We're in it. Let me talk about
         something that happened in 1983, in my apartment. Most
         of the CUFORN members attended from the Toronto area.
         Bill Moore was in town."

<Mickus> "He was there?"

<Fenwick> "He was there, in my apartment. He made a little speech.
         Very short. He stood up in the middle of the apartment.
         I remember that I was sitting on the couch at the time,
         and everyone was standing around or sitting around, I
         haven't got a big apartment...there were about 20 people
         there. I mentioned Project Aquarius to him as he had
         sent a telex, the 'stolen telex', we looked it over...
         we published it in fact. And I said, 'What, do you
         any more about Project Aquarius?" And he said, 'Well,
         I'll tell you something that's connected. In 1990
         something's going to happen on planet Earth which will
         change the course of human history forever, in 1990'.
         And I said, 'Well, how important is it?'. He said,
         'Well it will be as important as if Christ had returned.'
         And I said, 'Is it THAT?' He changed the topic IMMEDIATELY
         [Fenwick's emphasis], to some new information about the
         Roswell incident. He changed the topic very quickly...as
         if he knew what was going to happen at Armageddon in 1990."

<Mickus> "And referring our telephone conversation, what is the
         'Jesus' connection?"

<Fenwick> "Well, that's pretty difficult to say. The Jesus connection
         I think...we're talking not about Jesus, but about the
         Anti-christ meeting with the Jewish Saviour...who is an
         entirely different person, and with the prophet Elijah who
         may return at the same moment. In other words, three people
         involved, although Harbinson said two in his book. I think
         its three."

<Mickus> "As an aside, from my own readings on these 'End time'
         scenarios, Elias and Enoch are supposed to return for a
         final confrontation with the Anti-christ and false prophet,
         who is Jewish. They are the only two figures of both
         the old and new testaments, who never experienced physical
         death. In St. John's Book of Revelations they are thought
         to be the the 'two witnesses' [Rev.11], who by today's
         standards will have incredible 'psychic' powers." This
         whole scheme of things, as soon as you mention the name
         Anti-christ, seems to suggest a Judeo-Christian context...
         is that essentially correct?"

<Fenwick> "Yes."

<Mickus> "Well then where do the aliens fit in?"

<Fenwick> "Well I don't know about that part, but maybe we can go
         into that a little later. But briefly, the confrontation
         between Enoch, Elijah...the Jewish Saviour whatever name
         you want to give to him, and the Anti-christ; will be
         a mental confrontation. A battle of minds...which will
         occur on one day..."

<Mickus> "A battle of 'miracles'?"

<Fenwick> "Possibly miracles, I don't know. On that one day. And
         that will be the key element in the whole 'beginnings'
         of the 9-year war. Now the 9-year war...as I say called
         WW III. Now the 'alien connection' is strictly through
         project Aquarius. They know the future, they know the
         history of this planet...they have a long-term master
         plan for this planet, and it includes WW III. That's
         the only connection."

<Mickus> "But they're not 'God' though?"

<Fenwick> "No...but they're very close to it. What we would call
         in the old days, 'angels'. The equivalent. Able to make
         miracles. Christ himself may have been a product of a
         hybrid. Mary, under the Immaculate Conception...now
         we're dealing in religion. Now this is one of the reasons
         why Tracy Torme was talking how religion will be affected.
         We talk about the various things that have happened...in
         terms of genetic experiments...interbreeding with the
         abductees. Mary may have given birth to Christ through
         the same means. One ova was extracted, and Christ was born.
         There are a lot of years of Christ that we don't know
         what happened, he was out in the desert and so on. This is
         where the whole thing may have come to fruition. All the
         miracles that Christ was supposed to have done were quite
         common in those days...in terms of capabilities of people.
         A lot of people in those days could do the same things
         as Christ could do."

         "Recently...now I'm digressing somewhat here to religion.
         Harry Tokarz, our co-director, is quite a religious chap.
         He reads a Jewish publication, the 'Canadian Jewish News'.
         And recently...I think this was about 4 months ago...there
         was an article that said the Dead Sea Scrolls are being
         translated by computer. And the latest thing that they
         have come up with, and released to the media...the Jewish
         media, is that in those days...in the days of Christ,
         almost everyone could do the same things that Christ could
         do...but didn't do it openly. Christ did. And he was
         punished for that by being killed and crucified. Not
         because he was starting up a new religion or anything else,
         [but] because he did all these things...and they were not
         [supposed] to be done publicly. And he was taking advantage
         of his abilities...his psychic abilities to do...create
         'loaves of bread out of one'...this sort of thing. And
         everyone could do it in those days. And this is what has
         come out of the dead sea scrolls...this is fact."

<Mickus> "The Essenes could do this?"

<Fenwick> "Yes...oh yes."

<Mickus> "But only that limited group though?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know about that. That I don't know. I haven't
         gone that much into it. But the Essenes certainly...and
         maybe a lot of other people in those days had that ability.
         Now, if we were to get into the other aspect of things
         that Christ could do. Moses parting the Red Sea, [he] may
         have had that capability. People in those days were not
         technologically advanced as we are today. They are close
         to the primitive Africans...who can sense things a mile
         away...they have all these psychic/spiritual abilities. I
         think that primitive people were more advanced than we are
         in terms of their mental abilities, and their abilities to
         do things that we would consider miracles. What we call
         miracles were commonplace then. Nowadays if we see a
         'miracle' we wonder if someone is hoaxing us...'this is
         phony, are we being hypnotised, is mass hypnosis going on'.
         They were probably able to do such a thing...hypnotize
         crowds of people into thinking they saw 'a thousand loaves
         of bread' and they weren't. They may have done it [and]
         they may not. So if you're talking about the effect on
         religion...and religious people...very religious Christians,
         if they knew that Christ was the product of inter-breeding
         between creatures from another planet and Mary, ...that
         would destroy the Christian religion utterly, number one.
         It would upset the scientists, and the general public. And
         that's why you keep it from the people. I think that if I
         were in Project Aquarius...if I were a member of Project
         Aquarius...and not one of the ones who are [currently]
         talking; I would say, 'Gee, it is justified. We shouldn't
         tell the people this..., its got to be just too darn
         upsetting. I mean, maybe all our religions were founded by
         them [aliens] in that way."

<Mickus> "Why doesn't that one part of Project Aquarius 'silence'
         the ten rebels?"

<Fenwick> "There's a battle going on. A mental battle I think, or a
         paper battle. Some say yes, and some say no. And at the
         moment, the ones who say 'release it' are winning. Maybe
         in a few years time, maybe next year it will be the other
         side will hush it all up."

<Mickus> "Why aren't Condor and Falcon 'kicked out'? I mean, they
         must be able to find out who those two are."

<Fenwick> "They can't."

<Mickus> "Now the fact that Condor is reputed to be a black man..."

<Fenwick> "...that wasn't publicized in the show. I know it."

<Mickus> "I know, you couldn't tell by watching the show [UFO Coverup],
         but the fact that a black man would be in a position of power
         like that, isn't that a bit suspect? [Note. To all reading,
         please don't misunderstand what I'm saying].

<Fenwick> "He doesn't got the rank that Falcon has. Condor is the
         black man."

<Mickus> "And what is his rank?"

<Fenwick> "He's military. Falcon is scientific. He's a scientist.
         Scientist is above the military in MJ-12, under Aquarius.
         Scientist has a higher rank than the military. They can
         find out more, in terms of technological things. They
         supply the information on how the UFOs are propelled...to
         the military...who use it. But without the scientists, the
         military couldn't do a thing. So they get a higher ranking.
         They'd have to."

<Mickus> "The fact that there is a black man up there..., I can see
         that if they were all Vietnam vets like you said, that
         would make sense there. But what is his 'minimum' ranking?"

<Fenwick> "Colonel. He's at least a colonel, but I don't know his
         exact rank. Stanton Friedman called him, 'Colonel B', just
         gave an initial, that's all."

<Mickus> "But 'B' may not necessarily stand for anything. Just as
         like 'X' or whatever. 'B' could stand for 'black'."

<Fenwick> "Could use 'X', or however you want to do it. The
         information, according to Tracy he checked everything that
         had been told to Bill Moore. And everything checks out.
         Everything. The credentials...and all the information that
         he has [which] he didn't tell us, I mean I think we've
         know heard about 20% of the information. 15% from Tracy,
         and 5% from that TV show. There's a lot more. And Tracy
         was saying that..., 'if you think that what I have told
         you is astounding, you should hear the rest of it.' What
         we have heard, is nothing compared to the rest of the
         information that Aquarius has come up with."

<Mickus> "How much more incredible can it get?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know how much more. He said [Torme], 'that it's
         beyond human imagination.'"

<Mickus> "What would you say to people who try to separate the
         whole UFO phenomenon from religion, but just want to
         look at the empirical data."

<Fenwick> "The technological aspects? From a 20th Century point of
         view, all the technological things can not be done. No.
         The 21st century maybe, if we live that long..."

<Mickus> "No, what I meant is...can we get a handle on the thing
         by disregarding the religious aspect?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Oh we can, sure. From what I have read, and I've
         read over 400 books on the subject, I think if you
         were to take an overview of everything that had been
         written, or at least that I have read; yeah, you can
         get a handle on it."

<Mickus> "Divorced from the religious element?"

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, definitely. There's no question about that."

<Mickus> "...but you'd be missing the point though, if you didn't
         include it..."

<Fenwick> "You have to include that. That's the original source
         of the 'whole business'. I mean, I think they started
         our religions. I'm pretty sure they started our religions,
         certainly the Christian religion was started by them."

<Mickus> "What, the one group...the 'grays'?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, the grays."

<Mickus> "Do you believe there is 70, as in the 'Andreasson Affair'
         book?"

<Fenwick> "70 races there is in the planet, but I don't think that
         there are very many of the other 70 here around. Most
         of them are maybe grays, and some of the 'tall ones',
         and maybe the 'bigfoot' type, whatever. Those are the
         main ones, those are about 90% of them...of the individual
         aliens visiting the planet. That other 10% is the other
         67 races...maybe one or two guys from each race or
         something [who] at various times in our history have
         visited this planet."

<Mickus> "What about that one reference to the one 'bad' group,
         the bad race [see 'Andreasson Affair']."

<Fenwick> "The bad race, I think we're talking about the grays
         there. I'm not certain. The grays are the bad guys
         supposedly. According to some people...and nobody's
         decided other than the people at Aquarius and MJ-12,
         who would probably know the truth...maybe. Everyone
         else is guessing...that the grays are the bad guys.
         Linda Howe is guessing...and John Lear is guessing,
         and so on. [Why?] Because of what they do to us,
         they abduct us...they are doing things that we don't
         like. If I were a scientist, a genetic scientist from
         another planet, and was coming down to this planet and
         doing experiments...and seeing this 'failed experiment'
         [ie. the human race]; I would do it, without any
         particular care about whether the human beings were upset
         by it or not. I'd just do the job...its my job, what the
         hell."

<Mickus> "So we're a failed experiment..."

<Fenwick> "...from their point of view."

<Mickus> "Yes, but what they are going to try and get out of us
         before we annihilate ourselves...which they are..."

<Fenwick> "...under the process of doing. Having us do it [to
         ourselves]."

<Mickus> "They are contributing those thoughts to people's minds
         or whatever. What they want to take is that which will
         improve their own physiological make-up or whatever."

<Fenwick> "Yes, they're helping themselves. Hell, I would do it too
         if I had no muscles, and wanted muscles...and had the
         genetic capabilities of inter-breeding, sure I'd do it
         wouldn't you?"

<Mickus> "Now, isn't that sort of a fluke in a way, that two
         different species would be able to inter-breed?"

<Fenwick> "Yes it is, but they 'blend'. They don't inter-breed
         very well, they've had some problems with it...they've
         had some real problems. They're working at it, [after all]
         they've just started at it. I'm sure that they've tried
         other places too. If they've 'seeded' other planets...
         maybe at some places it works perfectly, and maybe at
         other places it doesn't."

<Mickus> "...Just so that I can get this whole religious schema
         which you've laid out, correct in my mind,...there's
         still 'God' and there's still the 'Devil', and there's
         humans AND there's other aliens which are 'angels'?"

<Fenwick> "What we would call angels. What we call angels...in
         terms of their capabilities and mental state...they're
         close to God."

<Mickus> "But they're not angels as in our biblical conception
         of St. Michael for example. They may be a step below..."

<Fenwick> "Yes, I'd say just one step below."

<Mickus> "For instance, there's reference in Genesis to the
         'Nephilim', who were said to be the offspring of
         illicit sexual relations between the 'Sons of God'
         [ie. angels] and 'the daughters of men'. Obviously
         the way you said it, the aliens would have been around
         long before that, but could they be something like that?"

<Fenwick> "Maybe. I don't know."

<Mickus> "Obviously, what you've described about the Aliens
         involvement in Religion and before Genesis...is all
         pretty muddy."

<Fenwick> "It is, yes. Now as I say, from my point of view, from
         what I know, its muddy. But obviously there is a lot more
         information. Now maybe the majority of the rest of the
         information about Project Aquarius has to do solely with
         religion. It just may be."

<Mickus> "You mean, what the future make-up might be...how the
         political and social structures might be? Because if its
         just a nuclear annihiliation..., there's gotta be
         something more there..."

<Fenwick> "Well, there's another thing too. Several abductees have
         reported, and we have investigated several cases...very
         plausible cases, where they've been shown the future of
         the planet...on board a UFO, by some sort of screen where
         they show films of the future on this planet. And you see
         devastation...everyone dying, and so on...from geological
         problems [ie. earthquakes, flooding, etc.]. I heard this
         from several abductees, credible people. The two ladies
         who were on the 'Man Alive' show [Note. That show's
         transcript, also done by ParaNet Pi, can be found in the
         File Library under ETHYPE.TXT], Dorothy and Betty...and
         Betty's one of our members by the way. So I questioned
         that, I said, 'You mean all the volcanoes on the earth,
         and all of them are going to erupt simultaneously, and
         all the earthquake faults...minor and major...are going
         to give way at the same time, and the North Pole...all
         the ice will melt very quickly, and all the coastlines
         will be flooded, and so on...' They said they saw all
         kinds of devastation...millions of people dying, they
         saw this. So I said to myself, 'Well...that's a
         possibility, its a possibility.' And I called Larry
         Fawcett, he's a police officer...Lawrence Fawcett. He's
         one of the two writer's of the book 'Clear Intent'. I
         called Larry...and I've talked to him before..., and
         I posed that question to him. I said, 'From whatever
         contacts you have with military intelligence, or whatever,
         could you tell me whether there will be any future events
         that will destroy most of the human race, having to do
         with geological problems." He said, 'No.' I said, 'What
         kind of source do you have?' He said, 'My source is a
         2-Star General who is in Project Aquarius.' He denied
         that anything 'geological' was going to happen. 'Its
         not going to be that at all'. I did not go any further
         and say, 'Well, is it going to be military, is it going
         to be sociological, is it going to be this or that.' I
         could have, but I didn't. I eliminated that possiblity
         as far as his... This is what he said, its second-hand
         information...or third-hand if it came from the aliens..."

         "There's another possibility too, that if you've read
         Thomas Bullard's [sp?] Ph.D thesis on abductions which
         is 600 pages long...dealing with 300 abductions. Most
         of the information given by the aliens to abductee's is
         LIES. So if they show these two abductee's [Dorothy and
         Betty] the future, its a lie. Why they lie, has not
         been gone into by Thomas Bullard. Why do they lie to
         us? Why do they lie to the abductees, about a lot of
         things? More than 80%...somewhere between 80% and 90%
         of the information are lies. WHY? That, we don't know.
         No one has speculated on that. You have to put yourself
         in their place. Suppose you had an IQ of 200, and you
         were 400 yrs. old, and you came from another planet to
         a planet where you were experimenting with people; why
         would you lie to them about their future. This is
         something that is a profound question...that no one has
         gone into in the UFO field...as far as I know. You
         have to put yourself in their place, and you can't do it.
         I mean, I got a 155 IQ, but its not 200! So I don't
         know, speculation is all you can do."

         "If what we've heard is true, and the events take place,
         then it will be too late to do anything about it anyway.
         If it doesn't happen, then we know that what Bullard's
         study has shown, is true...that it's lies, its all
         baloney. That what has been told by the aliens to MJ-12,
         and in particular to Project Aquarius...is lies. That
         is the most profound question. Probably the most profound
         question in the history of the human race. Because if it
         isn't lies...about WW III...then we've had it. We might
         as well live it up while we can too [laughter]. My way
         of living...I live it up, I'll tell ya. There's nothing
         that I won't do...within reason [more laughter]. But I
         stay within the law by the way."

<Mickus> "What do you see happening in the next 2 years...what
         kind of things are going to surface?"

<Fenwick> "Well, if you talk about that television show on Oct.14th
         UFO-Coverup LIVE, and you look at the date now...and you
         follow the media; there hasn't been one single bit of
         reaction in the United States, because of the elections
         going on now. They are all concerned with elections. This
         wasn't the time to have that TV show on, everyone is
         concerned with the election. They should have waited until
         after the election. But they figured this; they wanted
         Reagan to open up...Reagan knows whats' going on. They
         figured that he would come up with a statement before the
         election,...he's a lame-duck president. If he makes a
         statement before Monday [Nov.7/88], then that show will
         have done some good. If he doesn't, then that show will
         have been no good at all, 'cause that's what they wanted.
         They wanted that show to be a catalyst, so that Reagan
         would talk publicly to the American public about what's
         going on. They had hoped that."

<Mickus> "And what is Reagan's connection?"

<Fenwick> "He's part of the whole process...he's briefed."

<Mickus> "Is he a member?"

<Fenwick> "Of Aquarius? Sure."

<Mickus> "So its basically everyone in the upper hierarchy of
         the government."

<Fenwick> "We're talking about director of the CIA, director of
         the National Reconnaisance Organization, the National
         Intelligence Agency. The NRA wasn't mentioned there,
         there's also the Continental Army Intelligence Command.
         Those are some of the other agencies that werern't
         mentioned on that television show, but they were
         involved as well. The heads of them, the directors of
         them. Only them; who would have what they call, 'a need
         to know' basis. And on that basis, they are given the
         information...and they are not told what the other people
         know. They are only told what they need to know, for
         their own particular purposes. Their specialties are used
         by Project Aquarius. Reagan is not part of Project
         Aquarius, he is briefed on what they know."

<Mickus> "So he's not one of the 24?"

<Fenwick> "He's briefed, that all. And the CIA director is not one
         of them necessarily. We don't know exactly who. It
         changes over the years. People die off obviously, all the
         original MJ-12 people are dead...except for one person."

<Mickus> "And who is this?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know his name. I have a photograph of him with
         President Eisenhower...which was sent to me by one of
         our members [CUFORN] in western Canada, who has been in
         touch with a MUFON State Director who knows this man;
         knows where he lives, knows his name. Our Winnipeg
         member refuses to disclose the name to me, Harry and Joe
         [the 3 CUFORN Directors]. He will not give us the name of
         the man. The man is either 78 or 82 [years of age],
         somewhere in that area. He was in charge of

















         back to his original feeling that he should release the
         notes. And he mentioned also...the Winnipeg member
         mentioned that...his name is Grant Cameron [sp?] by the
         way in Winnipeg. He said that at the meetings, there
         were two meetings at which he presided, that he knows
         of; at those meetings were pieces of UFOs, dead aliens,
         and about 100 stenographers and secretarys taking notes,
         with the old stenographers and dictating machines and
         so on,...and they're all dead. Except this one man.
         Everyone is gone, every single person who was at those
         meetings is gone...except him. If we can track him down,
         that's the biggest story of all time...to get him to
         talk. One of the MUFON directors of one of the states
         was in touch with him AND his son. Now his son wants
         the father to release the information, but his father
         refuses now."

<Mickus> "Why isn't he 'silenced'? Why don't they just do away
         with him?"

<Fenwick> "Because no one knows what's going on, besides the few
         people in the UFO community. This is very confidential."

<Mickus> "Until now."

<Fenwick> "Well yes, obviously. Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman,
         particularly Bill Moore...is sort of on the outs with
         everyone else in UFOlogy; because he criticizes and
         debunks everyone except...anyone connected with the
         Roswell Incident, fine, or Gulf Breeze now. He has made
         a lot of enemies...Bill has. And people aren't passing
         information along to him in the UFO field..."

<Mickus> "Anymore, or not much...?"

<Fenwick> "No, not very much at all. He will either debunk it, or
         keep it for himself and try and make money out of it.
         Because he's got no other income, other than his little
         lists of books he sells and magazines whatever, and
         pamphlets. So there is a lot of people who just don't
         want to talk to him...about what's going on. Now I
         talked to Stanton; Stanton's okay...but he's sort of
         under Bill's thumb. Whatever Bill says, [Stanton will
         say] 'Oh yah...", which is very unusual for Stanton
         because he's a very independent type of guy. But they
         work as a team, with Shandera. And Linda Howe...and
         John Lear...are quite aware of what's going on, of
         that aspect. They are quite upset by it."

<Mickus> "What...the secrecy...the cliques?"

<Fenwick> "Yes the secrecy, and the cliques...exactly. I mean
         there's no room for cliques. I've written several
         editorials...one of which appeared in 'Flying Saucer
         Review' in England...about this situation. About the
         secrecy between UFOlogists. Work as a team as I've
         stated. Why don't we all work as a team...we could
         discover so much more as a team, than bickering
         among UFOlogists."

<Mickus> "There's so little time..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. And they have rumours flying around. That's a
         waste of time! John's repeating rumours he's heard
         from Linda Howe...Linda Howe's repeating rumours
         she's heard from John Lear. Then other people hear
         about those rumours...and they get exaggerated even
         more so. And what's the truth? Who knows if there is
         anything to it. We have to get at the essence of what's
         going on. We want to find out all the other information
         about Project Aquarius. That's what we have to centre
         on. I was talking to Allen Spragget [sp?], who is
         probably Canada's foremost authority on ESP,...I took
         a night school course on ESP from him. He's interested
         in the UFO phenomenon, and he got a million dollars
         recently, from a Canadian benefactor to do a TV show,
         a series of shows on ESP and UFOs. Only one show on
         UFOs. He want the opening one [to be on UFOs]. And he
         thought that he would do one on MJ-12, and he told me
         about 3 days before the TV show was on, and I said,
         'You're a little late, in a matter of fact the show
         [UFO Coverup] is going to be about MJ-12.' [and then
         Spragget said], 'Oh...well that's out. What else can
         I do?' And I said, 'How about Project Aquarius. Only
         one show only on Project Aquarius.' He said, 'Fine.
         Where am I going to get the information?' 'Well', I
         said to myself, 'You're not going to get it from
         Bill Moore, but maybe you'll get it from Stanton
         Friedman.' So I gave him Friedman's address and phone
         number, in Fredericton. I haven't called Allen to see
         whether he's spoken to Friedman, and what information
         he's gotten from Friedman, or how many leads he's
         gotten. I doubt very much if Friedman even knows Allen
         Spragget. Allen's published a few books on psychic
         phenomena and so on."

         "If that were to come to pass...that a Canadian show,
         or series...with the opening segment on Project
         Aquarius, [that] would be the most astounding media
         event in history. To get that on the air...all the
         information..., if Stanton would talk openly about
         all the information he knows."

<Mickus> "What do you think he knows?"

<Fenwick> "I think he knows it all. But if he would talk about
         it, and he thinks it should be done...  If they can
         get MJ-12 on a show, then why can't they get all that
         Project Aquarius stuff? It's not that much more of a
         leap...at least I don't think so, maybe it is...,
         Certainly if you can even mention Project Aquarius, as
         it was mentioned several times on the show [UFO Coverup],
         if you could even have mentioned that, then you've really
         got something. You've got your foot in the door...to
         breaking the whole thing wide open. But the key is 'the
         old man', what I call 'the old man'...whoever he is. If
         he will change his mind again; if Friedman can get to
         him. If he's right, Friedman says, 'I think I know who
         he is.', but he's not certain. Now whether he's gone
         after the wrong guy or the right guy...I don't know.
         I haven't spoken to Stanton in a while, its been about
         2 months since I've spoken with Stanton. If Stanton
         can get the old man to talk...then that can go on
         Spragett's show."

<Mickus> "When is Spragget's show scheduled for?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know. He has to get information before he can
         do a show...so he's waiting. He's trying to find out
         more."

<Mickus> "So you're encouraging Stanton and others to..."

<Fenwick> "...to be open. And join in a group effort. You've
         got to have that."

<Mickus> "Do you think a lot of this reticence has to do with
         people wanting credit and..."

<Fenwick> "...and Ego. Bill Moore has the highest ego that you
         ever want to see in a UFOlogist...there's no question
         about that. There's no room for ego in this deal. We
         need co-operation. I was talking to Allen Hynek...I've
         met him in person several times, the late Allen Hynek...
         and each time I did, he said the same thing I'm telling
         you. Co-operate, CO-OPERATE...as a team. We need a team
         effort. There shouldn't be a MUFON, an A.P.R.O., an a
         NICAP, and all these other organizations. Well, there's
         no longer any NICAP or A.P.R.O., [but still ones like]
         CUFOS. There should be ONE the entire world,...with
         translation facilities and so on. Then you get the heart
         of the matter, then you can find out what's going on."

<Mickus> "You have a network of people..."

<Fenwick> "Yes. And that's why the computer end of things is a very
         good idea. Because you do have the burgeoning network of
         people in the computer field. How many people are involved
         now in the computer field in UFOs. Its growing all the
         time. I think that there have to be more people who are
         in it full-time. That's the problem,...computers are a help."

<Mickus> "Do you think that we have got to have less 'armchair'
         UFOlogists, and more people like yourself who are giving
         money for research and..."

<Fenwick> "...yes. And speaking...I've spoken at libraries and so on.
         And giving the information to the public...it has to be
         out there. Because, sure a lot of people may be bewildered
         by it, may not believe it, may not understand it...but
         there may be the odd one...all you need is one or two who
         have information..."

<Mickus> "...you touch a nerve."

<Fenwick> "And touch a nerve....and [hope] they'll talk. Someone
         will say, 'I know someone who knows someone...', and
         then you go after that person, and say, 'Oh...what's
         his name, where does he live...give me his phone number
         and his address. Get that...if you can't get that, then
         forget what you've heard because it could be distorted."

<Mickus> "Yes, it's amazing how that can work. For instance I have
        someone on my BBS, not involved with UFOlogy at all...but
        yet he has a degree in Physics which he received at the
        University of New Brunswick, where Friedman taught. It
        just so happened that this particular individual was in
        charge of getting good speaker's for special physics
        department lectures, and when a good speaker from the
        states was available and he didn't have enough money to
        get him, he would go to the people who control the purse
        strings and request more funds. Alls he would have to do
        is hint that they were thinking of getting Stanton to
        speak, and shortly thereafter the money would become
        'available'. This of course refers to the stigma which
        other professional people place on anyone involved in
        a subject like UFOs. Your reputation is on the line."

<Fenwick> "Stanton's expensive. He charges $1000 an hour for
         lectures, plus airfare to wherever he's going, colleges
         and universities. I charge $50."

<Mickus> "Does he lecture about nuclear physics?"

<Fenwick> "No, UFOlogy. He lectures at Universities. He's
         lectured at something like 300 Universities and Colleges
         across North America. But that's a weekend deal. And
         he's worked for the New Brunswick Power Commission, he's
         worked on the irradiation of food, that sort of thing.
         And that's his full-time job. So weekends he'll lecture
         at symposium somewhere or at a library or university or
         something."

<Mickus> "The fact that he is getting such big money, do you
         think that that has some bearing on his willingness to
         release all that he knows?"

<Fenwick> "No. He has a big family, wife and kids. Stanton has to
         support a lot of research. He does a lot of research, not
         just lecturing. But he's after this Aquarius stuff...
         His phone bill alone is about $2000 a year at least."

<Mickus> "I've spent that much on phone bills in 7 months."

<Fenwick> "If you have independent income, its great. What we need
         is a few millionaires in the UFO field."

<Mickus> "Or a couple of rich widows..."

<Fenwick> "There aren't that many, John Lear's one I suppose. John's
         got a lot of money. We need more."

<Mickus> "Well, he's got...I think he's got enough that he can
         afford to get around and do a lot of footwork. [Enough]
         to get out of the armchair and do some of this stuff."

<Fenwick> "He doesn't have the access to people that Bill Moore has
         though, or Friedman, or Tracy Torme for that matter."

<Mickus> "Well, he was just meeting with 4 military people dealing
         with some sort of experimental weapons testing. He's
         got a lot of contacts in the aviation community as well.
         So he's got that going for him, other than just being
         a so called "celebrity's son". He talks a lot about SDI..."

<Fenwick> "How old is John by the way?"

<Mickus> "He's about your age, in his 50's. He talks about SDI as
         being a weapon against the EBEs."

<Fenwick> "Oh yes, of course it is. That's well known among certain
         UFOlogists."

<Mickus> "Could you elaborate then?"

<Fenwick> "Okay. Part of the exchange of technology which started in
         1975 was [that] SDI was given to the Americans."

<Mickus> "What...lasers, particle beams?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, all this sort of thing. There was a little bit
         given mentally...in the 1930's to Bertrand Russel and
         Albert Einstein, about stealth technology. Which
         culminated in the 'Philadephia Experiment'. That was
         stealth technology, but the ship...[had] invisibility
         to radar, not invisibility...invisibility to radar.
         And that was continued. Then [with] the agreement,
         they were given more information in 1975 as to how to
         really set-up the stealth technology, also [with] the
         'Star Wars' system. Supposedly the 'good guys' are
         coming into this planet, and the 'grays' want to repel
         them using the Star Wars technology. Star Wars is not
         Soviet vs. American. It's Gray vs. the Nords or the
         tall ones. That's all it is. Its a cover operation.
         This is one of the things that John Lear was talking
         about, and Linda Howe...and also a fellow down in
         Arizona who has his scientific labs next to Kirtland
         Air Force Base."

<Mickus> "You know the name of the lab?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, 'thunder'. Dr. Paul Bennewitz who is an electronics
         engineer. He was involved with the Kirtland sightings
         and so on. He's mentioned that 'stolen telex', having
         taken photographs of UFOs and so on...film, he's
         filming them."

<Mickus> "This is the telex that Moore reproduced?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. He re-typed it. I think you have to realize that
         there is sometimes more than meets the eye. You read
         about the strategic defence intiative and stealth
         technology...this was given to the Americans as part of
         the agreement. And the other part of it,...part of the
         exchange or agreement was that the aliens and the
         American military were to collaborate on the cattle
         mutilations. The mysterious cattle mutilations that
         occurred...there was 100,000 of them known in the
         United States and Canada and other parts of the world,
         including Puerto Rico..."

<Mickus> "...which were to get biological..."

<Fenwick> "DNA. In order to bring back one in 200 or 300 years,
         once the radiation has died out in this planet, a new
         race...a new 'Adam and Eve'...and cattle. You got to
         have food obviously. So you re-build, you build cattle
         whatever, out of DNA you 'grow' them. And this is the
         way you do the necessary work if you're going to think
         in long terms."

<Mickus> "So this would tend to give credence to the fact that
         there is going to be a nuclear holocaust."
         "To get back to something we talked earlier on, how
         does the Jewish Messiah scenario going to work?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know. I really don't know. What I've said
         is all I know."

<Fenwick> "...I think that there is a lot of speculation about religion
         going on today among people who don't know enough about
         projecty Aquarius that would lead them astray as to what the
         facts are. Whatever they are, I don't think they got them, I
         have a hunch about that."

<Mickus> "You're saying that the people looking at the religious
         elements, don't know enough about the actual documents,
         [content] etc...."

<Fenwick> "No...they are not interfacing enough...the people in the
         the religious field...such as Barry Downing and so on, they
         aren't communicating enough with people like Friedman and
         Moore...and so on, and Lee Graham. If they were to do that,
         they might come up with a lot more...of the religious aspect."

<Mickus> "...you mean get a total picture of what's going on..."

<Fenwick> "Yeah, I think so, this is where you'd have to have
         co-operation between two extremes...religion and science in
         a way...but you don't get that. Separate fields...it
         shouldn't be...it should be one field...one entity, one
         group working together. Tracy and Mel [Torme] his father are
         very much like myself, sort of agnostic, they don't bother
         much with religion, although they are Jewish."

         "...Harry [Tokarz - CUFORN Director along with Joe Muskat and
         Larry Fenwick] does tend to go off the deep end at times...
         about theory...on theories. He doesn't go off on tangents like
         I do, I tend to go back and forth."

<Mickus> "Is he Christian?"

<Fenwick> "No, he's Jewish. So is Joe, Joe Muskat our President, he is
         also Jewish. Joe isn't much in the UFO field, he's our
         president, just nominal, he knows a lot about photography, and
         is very skeptical...fairly skeptical. He's done some good field
         investigations, he's very good at that. But Harry is an all
         round type...now I'm not that good at field investigations, I'm
         good at writing about them, being a journalist. I've done some
         ...but Harry is probably the best out of the three of us...out
         of the triumvirate...troika, whatever you want to call it."

         "We've had some enquiries from the Soviet Union too...three.
         One from membership, from East Germany....one asking questions
         about telepathy and our research with UFOs, from a member of
         the Soviet Academy of Sciences from Novisibirsk, Siberia. The
         Institute of Medical Sciences...the man who has experimented
         on telepathy with rats...successfully. It was written up in a
         book called "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain",
         something like that...I've forgotten the name of the book now.
         It was written by one of the fellows who used to write for the
         Inquirer [Enquirer...or Inquirer?], I don't recall his name.
         Those enquiries were quite interesting, I called the RCMP
         [Canadian Police organization akin to the FBI-CIA] on those."

<Mickus> "And what happened..."

<Fenwick> "...we discussed it in my apartment for three hours with two
         members of the RCMP. One veteran man from the security service,
         who has since been transferred to Ottawa. And the other fellow
         from the communications division. I answered the letters with
         questions, in another letter. And I said [to the RCMP officers]
         make sure you intercept any replies you get from the Soviet
         Union, and I don't want to hear what the replies are. I don't
         want to hear."

<Mickus> "Oh...really?"

<Fenwick> "Nah."

<Mickus> "...you just didn't want to get mixed up in this..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. They spent three hours in my apartment...we
         talked about underwater bases in Lake Ontario, and this sort
         of thing, and they said 'We know about it, but we can't
         afford to get down there to see them.'"

<Mickus> "Really?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, they know there's a base under there. Near Hamilton
         in fact. In the deepest part of the Lake, there is an
         underwater base containing a museum."

<Mickus> "Containing a museum?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, one of the two museums they [EBEs] have. One of two we
         know of. One off of Cape Cod, and one in Lake Ontario. The
         one off of Cape Cod is a technological museum which deals with
         living things, which are frozen in time...sort of."

<Mickus> "Ours or Theirs?"

<Fenwick> "Ours. The one in Lake Ontario is a technological museum of
         devices for [determining?] past, present and future. Our future.
         And those have been recounted in two abduction cases. The
         'Andreasson Affair' was the Cape Cod one, the museum was
         mentioned there. And the abduction in St. Catherines of Jack T,
         that was the technological museum.

         So they're setting up museums...maybe for tourists...from other
         planets? I dunno...who knows? I mean what the hell would you
         do with a tourist, you go to museums. Logical enough from our
         point of view. [previous paragraph was tongue-in-cheek]"

<Mickus> "You sure that they're not Labs?"

<Fenwick> "No...no, they aren't. They don't do experiments. They are
         frozen in...plastic, something like that."

<Mickus> "Now, this entering into Lake Ontario, how would they actually
         do that...just go into the water?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah. Going into the water, sure. They don't create a splash
         or anything like that. They deflect gravity, and deflect the
         waves so that there is no splash and so on. We've had a few
         reports, some daylight reports that I've had. People won't
         talk any further about them. This one guy, someone I knew
         through a friend at work...who had been out in a boat in Lake
         Ontario, just down near Humber Bay. One afternoon, rain had
         just stopped...he was out fishing. And he saw this UFO under
         the water...fluorescent...long sort of circular disk, under
         the water, just a few feet under the water, it was smoothing
         along under water, and it went out way towards Mimico, then
         went Shooooshhhh back up to the sky like that [motions a
         sharp steep upward curve]. Just like that. And I can't even
         get the man to talk any further. I only spoke to him through
         someone I knew through work, and not only on the phone...I
         know the girl, this is her brother in-law. Went out with a
         couple of other guys, there was three guys who saw this thing
         and it was in broad daylight. It was just under the water, and
         right beside their boat. They were scared as hell. And they
         saw it shoot up into the air, it was sort of a greyish metallic
         colour to it...and it went straight up, and was a disk shape.
         And this is...oh about five years ago, something like that. I
         have to look up my notes, I only made scribbled notes from a
         telephone call at work, and it was all...I have a lot of
         scribbled notes unfortunately. Only once in a while I get
         around to typing some of this stuff out."

<Mickus> "One of the things mentioned by John Lear, as shown in this
         column in the Fall issue of the Skeptical Inquirer is that
         the Air Force currently has about thirty bodies of extra-
         terrestrials in their possession. Do you think that is an
         accurate number.?"

<Fenwick> "I would think so."

<Mickus> "What about live aliens, are there any currently being held
         captive?"

<Fenwick> "Yeah, there is one which is the guest of the American gov't,
         obviously one. I wouldn't say that he's a captive he's a
         guest."

<Mickus> "And what do you know in regards to that?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know what he would know. I really don't know."

<Mickus> "But where is he staying, how are they treating him? Do
         you know anything about that?"

<Fenwick> "No. No. I don't no. Other than what was on the TV show I
          don't really know. But if he is a guest of the American
          government, that could be a pseudonym for a captive. But
          if they are running the show. If these aliens are...and I
          say IF...if they are running the show, they are telling
          the Americans how to handle the whole situation, then He's
          in charge. Not a guest or a captive...he's in charge. He's
          telling them what to do. If you had an IQ of 200, and
          you're 400 years old lets say...375 years old, you can do
          anything you want on this planet, and ain't nobody who's
          going to stop you...really."

<Mickus> [refering to CSICOP's Skeptical Inquirer - holding up an
         issue]

<Fenwick> "...all the debunker's, armchair theorists."

<Mickus> "What is the line on Klass?"

<Fenwick> "What I know of Klass is through Todd Zechel. Who has had
          battles in print and book.  W. Todd Zechel, who has written
          under the name of Ted Zachary for 'UFO Report' magazine...I
          believe it was. He wrote a few articles [on it]. I forget
          which issue it was, but he has written a few articles under
          his name, and that phony name. And Todd has an unpublished
          phone number, he uses his parent's phone and address...some
          box number in Minnesota. I've talked with his parents, and
          to him, on the phone. I've never met him in person. And he
          and Klass have had this battle about his background. Klass
          says how he worked in a bawdy house, he worked in a gas
          station, [how] he never worked for the National Security
          Agency. And Zechel says he [Klass] worked for NSA for ten
          years and saw autopsy results on his desk...on dead aliens,
          this sort of thing. And he [Zechel] said....he went into a
          whole article, I don't know if you saw the article, I have
          it at home...about Klass and his KGB connections, and CIA
          connections..."

<Mickus> "Now...do you believe what you are saying? [Klass allegations]"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Implicitly. He went into enough detail, that there was
         not any doubt about it. He talked about Artamanov, who was the
         head of the Soviet KGB's Assassination Bureau, who was a
         personal friend of Philip Klass. He was sent over to assassinate
         another Soviet...and Klass has been friends with him...they have
         gone out on his yacht on the Potomac River...in American waters.
         Klass' apartment, by the way, has been bugged by the FBI...has
         been for quite some time. And Klass refuses to acknowledge that.
         He works as a double agent, for both the KGB and CIA."

<Mickus> "He's a double agent?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, for quite some time now. He's an "asset". What the CIA
         call an asset. He doesn't work for the CIA directly, he's an
         independent asset, having worked as the editor for "Aviation
         News and Space Technology"...he's what they call an asset.
         In other words, he publishes information that is fed to him by
         the CIA...what they want published about technology....military
         technology...gets into the magazine because of him. Of course,
         he's retired now, he doesn't work for the magazine any more.
         I've seen references to him still being with them [magazine],
         he's not, he's retired. ...And he was seen on the yacht
         talking to Artamanov...the assassin, or the Head of the
         Assassination Bureau. And Klass has admitted publicly that he
         has spent time, in bed, with a Soviet female agent...before he
         met his wife. But he says [Klass speaking], "that doesn't make
         me a KGB agent." [provokes laughter...which causes Fenwick to
         remark]...on no, not much it doesn't [more laughter].

         And then, Zechel had published a series of journals called,
         "For Your Eyes Only", which is a very good title. And I have
         all the issues except for one...but then he [Zechel] stopped
         publishing. And his next issue was supposed to have an article
         showing the Klass-CIA connection in terms of the UFOs. It
         never appeared. And I have not had a chance to get in touch
         with Todd for 5 months...something like that. I paid my dues,
         my subscription fee, but I never got a hold of the that other
         journal, a whole years [worth of] journals missed...I missed
         the last one...and had to renew I guess.

         He's very anti- Bill Moore. They have one hell of a royal
         battle going on in print at times. Much as Klass was against
         Zechel, very vituperative sort of thing."

<Mickus> "So Klass' role then...is to go around debunking all this
         stuff because...."

<Fenwick> "Because he's been told to."

<Mickus> "He's been told to?"

<Fenwick> "Sure, he's doing his job, that's all. I've seen all his
         techniques on television...look at your watch...'oh..this
         isn't important, I'll look at my watch...' [Klass] will
         talk in generalities. [example - Klass speaking again]
         'I've done research on so many cases.' What cases? He never
         says. 'Of the hundreds of thousands of reports that I've
         investigated...' Hundreds and thousands? C'mon... Sometimes
         hundreds, sometimes thousands...it varies according to what
         network he's on. In other words...ABC, CBS or whatever...
         you know...it changes all the time. I got one of his books,
         his first book. I went through that with a fine tooth comb,
         and I had marked the margins all the way through. And I
         wrote a letter to him, and he said, "Aw, you're all....if
         you know so much about UFOs then you must be an alien."
         I've got his letter to that effect [laughter]. And I took
         apart his first book completely...I mean there isn't a
         single fact that is verifiable there....and there are a lot
         of lies in there, and a lot of cases that no one in the UFO
         community has even heard of. [In regards to] obvious hoaxes,
         he's picked out those ones...and then says that these are
         typical of the UFO field....that's how he [Klass] operates.
         And I've studied propaganda techniques at first year
         journalism at Ryerson [Polytechnical in Toronto], the first
         thing we did was study a sheet of propaganda techniques...
         and he [Klass] has used them all. He's done his job, and
         the other people at CSICOP have done their job too...
         Sheaffer and Oberg. Oberg is a little more open minded than
         some of the others. Harry [Tokarz] has had some
         correspondence with Oberg...which isn't too bad actually,
         although Oberg threatened to sue Harry, and Harry threatened
         to sue him back...and nothing happened. Those three are the
         CSICOP members in the UFO field...although there was that
         channel 79 thing that they got involved in too, a few years
         ago where there was a debate on UFOs. And then they had...
         whats his name...the head of CSICOP in Buffalo...talk on the
         show, and he was really arrogant...and it was quite a show.

         It seems to me that there is also a Soviet connection, other
         than Klass. First of all, James Oberg does spend time in the
         Soviet Union and he has connections between NASA and the
         Soviet Space program...he speaks perfect Russian...and so
         does Carl Sagan speak perfect Russian. Carl Sagan spends
         several months of the year in the Soviet Union. And Sagan
         has made his statements through books and other appearances,
         about UFOs...distorting the Betty and Barney Hill case on that
         'Cosmos' series...beyond belief...I mean it [the way Sagan
         presented it] was nothing like what happened. And then there
         was that show that was done on PBS debunking UFO's, and
         [Sagan] got his word in there too, as did Klass. It seems to
         me that the Klass-Oberg-Sagan triumvirate is the Soviet KGB
         connection between CSICOP and the Soviets. That is the
         connection right there. And they may all be double agents."

<Mickus> "What is the Soviet UFO interest anyway?"

<Fenwick> "The interest in the technology...propulsion systems."

<Mickus> "Do they have similar things going on as in the alien - U.S.
         government arrangement?"

<Fenwick> "We've heard a few things, but only through the Enquirer,
         about supposedly there was an attack on an alien base by
         the Soviets..."

<Mickus> "But would you place some credence, or alot [as to the
         veracity of the UFO stories in the 'National Enquirer']"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Some....Some. I think when you look at those three
         fellows, Klass, Oberg and Sagan...you've got certainly
         with Klass a double-agent. Oberg possible. Sagan maybe.
         But I think there is a connection there. Now, I have heard
         stories and theories about maybe the Soviets and the
         Americans are working together on the UFO phenomenon,
         [but] I don't think so. I think that they're both
         interested in it, and that the 'good guys', the 'tall
         ones' [Nords] who look like us, are working with the
         Soviets, and the 'bad guys' [Grays] are working with the
         Americans, which is really strange...but I think that's
         what's happening."

<Mickus> "So its basically just those two groups [aliens] which
         are involved?"

<Fenwick> "Yes. Those are the two main races, of course."

<Mickus> "It would seem to make sense [using this scenario] that the
         Aliens would play off the superpowers against one another."

<Fenwick> "Yes, this is why that when the Soviets and Americans talk
         about SDI, the Soviets are against the SDI because any of
         the tall ones who are coming back down to this planet...
         maybe in some future invasion, or whatever in 1990...who
         knows what it is... The Soviets, being linked with the good
         guys would not want the Americans to have the SDI program
         to fend off the good guys. Makes sense...so there may be a
         ...I'm just saying, this is just theory...but it may be, it
         just may be. I hope I'm wrong. I hope the Americans are with
         the good guys, and the Soviets with the bad guys...that
         would make more sense from a Western point of view [jokingly]"


                             [-Break-]


<Fenwick> "...with the U.S. Navy being involved with Aquarius [Project]
         in the states."

<Mickus> "Is the U.S. Navy to a large degree involved with Aquarius?"

<Fenwick> "Yes...the Canadian...all navies are involved...we have a
         member [of CUFORN] of the Swedish Navy who just joined."

<Mickus> "Is the fact that the navies are involved related to the
         existence of the underwater bases?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, I think so. Basically, that's part of it. But people
         would never suspect the Navy being involved in land events
         you see, so that's one way of covering it up...use the Navy.
         Its a very good cover."


                            [-Break-]


<Fenwick> "The public must know. It has to be put in the proper context
         for the public, so that they can take it. That's very
         difficult."

<Mickus> "Getting back to the Moore 'programming' thing, I wanted to
         get into that in a little more detail, 'cause lets face it,
         it does sound a little..."

<Fenwick> "Farfetched?"

<Mickus> "Farfetched, strange...whatever you want to call it."

<Fenwick> "Yes...it certainly does. He [Bill Moore] may have had an
         incident whereby a scar was left...they [EBEs] took tissue
         samples, and at that time a probe MAY [his emphasis] have
         been inserted in his head. A probe whereby he would be
         implanted with a communication device whereby they would
         program him to act the way that he is acting. Thats all
         I'm saying. Maybe."

<Mickus> "And when did this incident take place, when you confronted
         Moore with this allegation?"

<Fenwick> "1982 at the MUFON Symposium in Toronto."

<Mickus> "And you said..."

<Fenwick> "He said...I'll go into more detail here...He said that when
         he was....his mother asked him..."

<Mickus> "So you asked him first...just to clarify exactly what the
         exchange was between the two of you..."

<Fenwick> "Yes, I said, 'What's that scar...I think I notice a scar
         there?' [Moore now speaking ->] 'Yeah, I covered up my
         moustache' I said [Fenwick], 'How did that happen?' He says,
         [Moore again] 'Well...I think it was as a child, some kid
         threw his little metal toy truck at me' [Fenwick] or
         something like that. [Moore] '...but my mother says it
         never happened. All she said was that I came home bleeding
         one day, and you said' [Moore as a child] 'I don't know
         how this happened.' [Fenwick] And that's all. 'And this is
         what I think happened [Moore referring to the toy truck
         story].' 'But I don't know', he said [Fenwick referring to
         Moore again] 'I really don't know, and I don't want to
         talk about it anymore.'[Fenwick again] ...and that was all."

<Mickus> "And what was his manner of speech at the time?"

<Fenwick> "And then I said, 'Maybe you were abducted?' He said, 'I
         don't want to talk about anything like that.' [Fenwick
         again] thats all. He had fear in his face...fear in his
         eyes, he was AFRAID [Fenwick's emphasis]"

<Mickus> "He had fear in his eyes?"

<Fenwick> "Oh Ya, Definitely. He started shaking."

<Mickus> "He started shaking?"

<Fenwick> "Ya...just for a second. He turned his face away from me."



<Mickus> "How does the major media handle UFO sighting information?"

<Fenwick> "The three major networks, according to Tracy Torme...there
         are three men who work with Project Aquarius, who are senior
         executives, or are under contract with Project Aquarius, at
         CBS. Three of them. There are two with NBC, and one at ABC.
         In other words they monitor what goes on the air. They WILL
         NOT allow anything to go on the air, because of their status
         within the networks, that has to do with Project Aquarius.
         And that's why ["UFO Coverup - LIVE tv prog] had to go on
         the Lexington Broadcasting System in the states, which has
         one hundred and ninety outlets, and it was on those stations,
         which are in major markets in the United States, and on
         Global [TV Network] in Canada. Not CTV or CBC. Minor stuff
         [tv stations that is]...so this is how they keep it out of
         the major networks."

<Mickus> "And there is nothing written? Its all verbal?"

<Fenwick> "That's right...Tracy tried to get ahold of ABC, but they
         turned him down flat. And he knows people there, but it
         didn't help any. They are the most likely of the networks to
         put something on [connected with UFOs] since there is only
         one man there from Aquarius, or on contract with them. So
         he [Tracy] thought he'd try that one, but it didn't work."


<Mickus> "What about Groom Lake, what do you know about that?"

<Fenwick> "That's the crash in '84 of the UFO. Robert Bond, General
         Robert Bond, he's the pilot. That's Groom Lake. I found
         it on the map by the way."

<Mickus> "Is that a base of some sort?"

<Fenwick> "...its on the fringe of the Atomic Energy Commission's
         testing grounds. Groom Lake is a dry lake, its on the
         map of Nevada, I found it. Fair size lake, a dry lake. Its
         surrounded by mountain ranges...no towns around it. Its
         restricted airspace. That's where the crash occurred. Its
         where they test experimental vehicles, that area."

<Mickus> "What about Dulce, New Mexico?"

<Fenwick> "Dulce? That's on the border between Mexico and Arizona."

<Mickus> "And supposedly there is a huge underground base there..."

<Fenwick> "Supposedly, this is Tracy Torme's surmised...what he's
         talked about. No one's seen an underground base [those in
         UFOlogy circles], they've only guessed. Its only been
         guesswork about that, and [about] some incidents that have
         occurred down there, some sightings."

<Mickus> "...and the incidents...about fighting and shooting between
         soldiers and...."

<Fenwick> "Rumour. Rumour. That's all rumour."

<Mickus> "So...you have nothing to add then..."

<Fenwick> "No..no...what's been printed in the National Enquirer or
         other magazines or between UFOlogists...no ones proved that
         at all. That could be a lot of nonsense."

<Mickus> "One question I have to ask [from ParaNet Member Joe Holland],
         goes as follows, ' I keep getting indications the aliens are
         preparing the abductees to act or do something at some future
         time, and they are being programmed with the knowledge of
         what to do, this knowledge to emerge later. Like Budd Hopkins
         said, they were shown a box that they would know what to do
         with later. Have you come across this? What is the future
         time, and what is supposed to happen? A natural disaster?
         An invasion, takeover?'"

<Fenwick> "No one knows...except the abductees....I have a tape of
         'Jack' in St. Catherines, I have a tape of his subconscious
         talking, under hypnosis. Saying that if he were to REVEAL
         what he is programmed to do...then it would self-destruct,
         the program. So it cannot be revealed."

<Mickus> "So who is this person again?"

<Fenwick> "'Jack'...its not his real name, he's an abductee. One of
         the three guys from that rockband who were abducted
         [reference to a past CUFORN investigation]."

<Mickus> "Does he have an implant?"

<Fenwick> "Oh Yes, sure. But he is not to know what that mission is...
          You talk about a mission..."

<Mickus> "Obviously its ominous. An assassination..."

<Fenwick> "Who knows...he's used the name Mission, thats all."

<Mickus> "So its all just speculation then..."

<Fenwick> "That's right. But Harry and I agree on that...all the
         abductees have the same mission. Helping maybe...helping
         survivors or something. I knows theres been talk..."

<Mickus> "Oh...so it could be positive in a way?"

<Fenwick> "Oh Yes, sure it could be. The survivors of the catastrophe
         or whatever it is, will be assisted by abductees. Move to
         higher ground or safe ground, whatever. The one geological
         thing was supposed to be the flooding of the coastlines and
         so on, but also [that] southern Ontario will be underwater
         all the way to Barrie. The CN tower will be underwater. And
         this is 1990. We're talking 1990. Also central China will
         be underwater...a huge lake. And England underwater, the
         United Kingdom completely underwater. No Florida left,
         New York City gone."

<Mickus> "That might indicate some kind of pole shift..."

<Fenwick> "All sorts of things are possible. Maybe a whole series of
         things. But again, this 2-star general said no...nothing
         geological is involved at all. And this is 1990 we're
         talking. Probably just after this, or just before this
         meeting between the Anti-christ and Enoch and so on. All
         that same year...that's what we've been hearing. It just
         seems too much of a coincidence. Something is going to
         happen that year...but what it is I don't know, I'll put
         it that way. Something...but what it is I don't know.

<Mickus> "You mentioned earlier to me, that you see in the coming
         months, similar Gulf Breeze type incidents, that don't
         exactly create a lot of controversy among the public, but
         the media..."

<Fenwick> "...publicizes them."

<Mickus> "But you definitely don't think it [GB] was a hoax though?"

<Fenwick> "No. Gulf Breeze? No. I think that there's something to
         it...I don't necessarily believe the photographs, but I
         think somethings happened down there. The photographs
         may be hoaxes. I haven't seen the photographs from the
         other people. No names have ever been released of the
         other people who took these photographs. There's talk
         only. Who are these people? I haven't seen any names."

<Mickus> "There's something about just looking at the GB photos
         that..."

<Fenwick> "...doesn't seem right."

<Mickus> "The port holes [in the UFO]..."

<Fenwick> "...I know, it looks too good in a way. Its like the Meier
         case.  I think that something has happened down there [GB],
         and the media are picking up on it. And publicity....in the
         past you never had flaps getting major publicity like this.
         That's the only thing that's happening."

<Mickus> "Somebody has suggested recently that what could happen is
         that this thing could be exposed shortly, and put UFOlogy
         back underground for another five years."

<Fenwick> "That could happen too. Everyone's cautious about this. You
         have to be. Even MUFON, in their magazines they've said the
         same thing...who knows, maybe its all a hoax. They haven't
         said outright, except lately, that its 99% proven. No ones
         done a complete...not even Bruce Maccabee hasn't done a
         complete enough analysis on these photographs. No one has,
         which is odd. You know Bruce has said that he has looked
         at all the photographs...and he talks about the things he
         looks for...but he hasn't shown anything on that TV show,
         he did not show any printouts of the computer analysis,
         until I see that, and I know how that's done...then I
         leave everything up on the air. I do think that something
         has happened there. If there are ten cases, reports of
         'missing time'...something in UFOlogy, something has
         happened, [if] there have been encounters. The photograph
         may have something to do with something else. I think
         the photographs may be a hoax."


<Mickus> "Getting back to the Harbinson books now..."

<Fenwick> "They are tests of the readers. The latest one [Light of
         Eden] is a little bit off base. I think of the three books,
         the second one, "Revelation" is the one that is closest to
         the truth. Or certainly would evoke the most comment from
         readers, of the three. [The books] are testing the waters,
         psychological testing. Now maybe the aliens, through NSA,
         through Harbinson, want to test Us...find out what are
         minds are like, how we react to things like this. That
         could be all it is. Its a thought...that may be all that
         they are doing here."

<Mickus> "Now what if someone says to you, prove to me that Harbinson
         was an NSA operative. What would you say?"

<Fenwick> "How would I prove that Harbinson was NSA?" I've only
         heard through someone else, second hand. And no where
         in the background of Harbinson is it mentioned that he
         was NSA, obviously they wouldn't mention that."

<Mickus> "Needless to say, people are always looking for hard
        proof and evidence in this field, for obvious reasons.
        What would you say to them in light of what you have
        said today, with the many claims?"

<Fenwick> "...thats right [people always say] 'Show me the facts
         ..show me statements...show me statements.'"

<Mickus> "And no doubt many will say that of you..."

<Fenwick> "Of course, sure. We have to have some skepticism,
         obviously, and I've shown my skepticism to some extent
         [today]. So I think you have to be conservative, and at
         the same time you have to be open-mnded, a little bit
         of both, a balance of the two. I've been 37 years in
         UFOlogy, so I know a little bit about what's going on.
         I have an overview by now. I'm not the only one...we
         have one member [CUFORN] who's been in it longer than
         I have. Bill Allen was formerly a field investigator
         at A.P.R.O, who lives out in B.C.[British Columbia].
         So if you are in it long enough, obviously you are going
         to get some sort of overview."

<Mickus> "Ok Larry, I think we covered most of the things I wanted
         to cover. If you would like to finish up with a summation
         as to where you think UFOlogy is today, and where its
         headed..."

<Fenwick> "Ok fine...any other questions that you have, I would be
         glad to answer them."

<Mickus> "Yes, it would be nice if you could come back in, lets say
         three weeks? And attempt to answer any questions that have
         arisen by that time."

<Fenwick> "Yes, sounds fine....There's only about 5,000 people in
         North America involved in UFOlogy...something like that..."

<Mickus> "Yes, and its growing all the time. A lot of people with a
         casual interest..."

<Fenwick> "Thats all, a lot of those fringe people. We don't get those
         people as members at all, we're too fussy, we're not another
         MUFON. You know they'll accept pretty well anyone into the
         organization. We're fairly fussy about that."


         "I think that what we have to do, is to maintain an open
         mind with skepticism, about whatever we hear about the
         UFO field. Regardless of how long we've been in it, or
         what are viewpoints are. And we have to say to ourselves,
         'If what has been talked about, at this point in time is
         true, [then] there's very little that we can do about it.
         So we might tend to become fatalistic, and say well, live
         it up...live for today and forget about tomorrow, because
         we're all going to go. Or maybe we can say that it is all
         baloney'...and so what? Again, with WW III coming up, what
         can we do to tell the public. Why stick to the UFO field
         then. Why don't we as field investigators, those who have
         gone out into the field and investigated these cases...why
         don't we spend more time educating the public, and not
         saying to ourselves, 'Oh, well what do they [the public]
         know about it'...let them find out what we know about it,
         and what we don't know about it. What we are guessing
         about, and what we know. You have to counter the frustration
         and ignorance of the general public in regards to what
         UFOs signify...I think that might be the best way to put
         it in general. Whats the phenomenon, if you want to use
         the word phenomenon, I don't like the use of that word.
         But what does it mean to the human race, and to the future
         of the human race. If we give information to people...
         information can't hurt you, it can only help you. Fear
         is the worst thing you could have...if you don't know those
         things and are afraid of it. If you know the truth, then
         you can't be afraid. You'll be set free from your fears.
         You have to be willing to disseminate information...and
         mention theory, as theory only...speculation only. Try
         and get feedback from the public also, and from people in
         the military intelligence area who may feel as we do, that
         the public should know more about what's going on. I think
         that summarizes what I'm going to say."

<Mickus> "If what is going to happen...is going to happen..."

<Fenwick> "...what can we do about it. If we can't do anything about
         it..."

<Mickus> "...but CAN we do anything about it?"

<Fenwick> "Yes, that's the question, the main question...'can we'. I
         really don't know if we can do anything about it. I've
         been living hedonistically for a few years now, since '82
         actually...[half-humourous]"

<Mickus> "Yes, but there's got to be something that we can do...
         Education..."

<Fenwick> "Education...preparing people for the inevitable...or the
         evitable...the unavoidable"

<Mickus> "I mean this isn't set in stone...theoretically people
         could alter what's going to happen..."

<Fenwick> "En masse maybe, not individually. If they [EBEs] know the
         future, then there's nothing we can do about it."

         "You have to discuss using, if you are in the UFO field,
         your knowledge...your background, your reading...your
         contacts, your speculations. You have to discuss all these
         things, cases...individual cases. You have to discuss
         statistics...the results of statistical studies that have
         been done. And unfortunately there have been a lot of
         statistical studies done, but very little in the way of
         analysis of the statistics, in every area of the UFO field.
         That needs to be done, and very few writers have done it.
         I mean that there's a lot of books out...various compendiums
         of things, and specific cases... You have to be very
         cautious about what you read about the UFO field. You
         have to make notes as you read. [saying to yourself] 'I
         remember this case...that correlates with the one he's
         talking about in this chapter here...or make a note in the
         margin about another case...' And I do that when something
         ties in. If you get enough..., its like, if you go out to
         investigate a UFO report, if theres only one observer, then
         it doesn't mean a lot, if there are two...then it means
         more. Same theme, correlations...combinations, this sort of
         thing, multiple observer...and cases that are similar in
         some respects...that are major aspects of a case."

<Mickus> "The 'yellow book' and the 'blue book'...do you know what
         is in those?"

<Fenwick> "No. Sounds like a whole bunch of things are mixed in. I
         would be more interested in reading what Meier supposed...
         I've got a little bit more about him..."

<Mickus> "So you're not willing to write the Meier thing off?"

<Fenwick> "No I'm not. Nor is Harry [Tokarz], Harry thinks its all
         genuine too. Joe [Muskat] is skeptical. Very...he thinks
         its all baloney, that Meier thing. I don't know. I just
         don't know. I have to be honest, I don't know. I'm neutral
         on that. Show me...show me the facts, show me proof...
         evidence, enough evidence that constitutes proof in a court
         of law. Regardless what Phil Klass says, 'he says show me
         the proof?' We show him evidence, and that's not enough.
         [show Klass] Massive evidence, still not enough. That's
         extreme..., stupidity not skepticism."

<Mickus> "What's Moore's agenda?"

<Fenwick> "I wish I knew."

<Mickus> "Is his linked to the aliens agenda?"

<Fenwick> "I don't know."

<Mickus> "But he at this point, knows everything...he's just releasing
         bits and pieces..."

<Fenwick> "Yes...and Harry keeps accusing him of wanting to make money
         out of it. Because...well he's got no other income, actually
         he has to, you can't blame him."

<Mickus> "Do you think that he [Moore] is pretty fatalistic about
         this whole thing? And he's just in it right now for what
         he can get out of it?"

<Fenwick> "Ask him...I don't know. And Bill doesn't talk. Bill is
         very very sensitive. You can bring up a topic on UFOlogy
         and he'll say, 'Well, I'd rather not talk about it.' He
         wants to make money out of it...thats all there is to it.
         He has kids...a divorced wife, and kids to support and so
         on, so you can't blame him, I would too. Hell, you got no
         other income, you gotta hold back [on the release of info].
         You can't give all the information out, if you are going
         to put it into book form, or a video to sell...or whatever.
         That's the way he's got to do it, I'm sure. Harry is very
         jealous of the fact that Bill is on it full-time, a lot of
         people are I would think. You have to look at it from
         Bill's point of view too, really. There's two ways of
         looking at it. You have to put yourself into the other
         person's place."


<Mickus> "Well, Thank You very much Larry for this interview."

<Fenwick> "Yes, my pleasure. Hope to see you in three weeks time
         to respond to any questions."


                                          [-END-]


======================================================================

As was mentioned in the interview, Larry Fenwick, due to the fact that
he is not yet linked up with a computer and modem (perhaps in 6 months
time), has agreed to come back to my residence to answer any questions
that may have arisen over some of the content contained herein. The
Interview took place on Nov.6, so I expect Larry to return towards the
end of Nov/88. In addition, future interview and input by Larry on the
system, have not been ruled out. This interview was not intended to
plug CUFORN (Canadian U.F.O. Research Network - Incorporated 1977) If
you would like more information on CUFORN, please access the CUFORN
Bulletin Menu Option off of the UFOlogy Menu here at ParaNet Pi.

Those wishing to submit questions (not attacks), are asked to leave
them in the UFOlogy Conference Area here at ParaNet Pi. Upon calling,
you will be given immediate access to both the UFOlogy Conference
and UFOlogy File areas (where currently we have over 250 UFO related
files on-line, along with file captures of the FIDONET UFO Echo, and
ParaNet Alpha Msg Base). Questions should be addressed to "Larry
Fenwick". His user number here is "70". Questions and/or comments
directed to Larry can be entered in directly, or through XMODEM of
a msg (of not more than 4k) into the Conference area. Anyone who
has questions for me personally, may leave them either in the
Conference area, or through private E-mail, depending on the question.

The transcript of this interview may be reproduced for personal use
only, and may be posted on other Bulletin Board Systems, provided that
credit is given ParaNet. This file may not be edited without the the
permission of Tom Mickus. In addition, this file shall not be printed
in any publication without my own consent. It remains the property of
the Sysop of THE CRUCIBLE, namely...

                                    -Tom Mickus 11/10/88

======================================================================
THE CRUCIBLE <ParaNet Pi>  416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/9600 - 44 Megs
======================================================================


APPENDIX:
--------

      The following is a brief recounting of what myself and
      Larry Fenwick spoke about in the initial 45 mins of
      the interview. Approximately one third was taken up
      with an in-depth biography of Larry Fenwick. Everthing
      below will be my [Tom Mickus'] words, which I have to
      the best of my ability re-collected as to the content
      and subject matter of what we discussed.



      [Larry Fenwick is in his early 50'. He has had a long
      involvement with the study of UFOs. Originally he got
      fascinated with the subject in the early 1950's, when
      I believe he read Donald Keyhoe's book on the subject
      entitled something like "Flying Saucers are Real". He
      is of Jewish descent, although I believe he would
      characterize himself as "non-practicing". In his early
      years he had some difficulties in high school, and
      flunked several grades. Later on he took 2 years of
      psychology in University, but did not graduate. In
      the 1960's he attended Ryerson Polytechnical Intstitute
      in Toronto, Ontario, and received a degree in journalism
      shortly thereafter. He later on had several jobs in
      the industry, and journalism led him eventually to his
      role as editor of the CUFORN Bulletin. Like many, it
      was several years before his interest in UFO's grew..
      and eventually he and a few others decided to set an
      incorporated organization called CUFORN (the Canadian
      UFO Research Network). He has been involved with many
      on-site investigations of UFO's since then, and before.
      He has read over 400 books on the subject, and has
      appeared on local television and radio numerable times.
      Through the ebb and flow of interest in UFO's, Larry's
      organization has stayed with it, and today numbers
      around 50 members from across the globe.]

      [In the remaining minutes of the first 45 min tape, we
      discussed the two programs UFO Coverup LIVE, and the
      UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - Gulf Breeze segment. Of particular
      note is that Larry told me that his associate, Harry
      Tokarz, had noticed an unusual buzzing or hum, present
      on the audio throughout the duration of the program.
      Although Larry says that he never noticed it until Harry
      had told him, on subsequent viewing of the videotape,
      Larry agreed that the sound was discernible, and like
      nothing he had ever heard before on a LIVE broadcast. I
      got the distinct impression that he felt that this was
      the EBEs making their presence known, in a method (radio
      interference) not unheard of by UFOlogists.

      We also discussed why the aliens view the human's as a
      "failed experiment".

      When referring to the programming of Hitler by the EBEs,
      which in effect caused World War II (the decisions of one
      man)...Larry also mentioned the one other incident where
      he said that the aliens had manipulated a world leader to
      do their bidding. He cited the fact that John F. Kennedy
      was supposed to bring us to nuclear war, but that he had
      backed down, and as a result the aliens sought "revenge".
      In other words they were wholly or in part, responsible
      for the assassination of JFK. Larry Fenwick gave me a
      name of some person labelled 'the _______ tramp" or vagrant
      or something along that line who was supposed to be
      involved. I plan to get back to Larry to get more specific
      details regarding this sensational allegation. He cited
      the failed Bay of Pigs fiasco as Kennedy's big mistake in
      the eyes of the aliens. JFK was supposed to carry through
      with it, and thus eventually it would provoke nuclear war
      with the Soviets in defense of Cuba. Larry Fenwick said
      that the aliens were not involved with the cause of WW I.

      Fenwick also discussed the role of the Hollywood in
      promoting the "friendly ET image", specifically the role
      of celebrated director, Steven Speilberg. Fenwick said that
      there are two close associates of Speilberg who have been
      encouraging him to produce movies along this line. While
      Speilberg is not "programmed" himself, these other two
      unnamed people apparently attended school with him, and have
      been vigourously suggestive with Speilberg as to what
      directions his movies should be going in. Speilberg is aware
      of this, but has decided to go along. The movies in question
      include of course "Close Encounters of the Third Kind", more
      recently "Batteries Not Included", and of course "E.T. the
      Extraterrestrial"...the most popular movie of all time,
      grossing close to 1,000,000,000 dollars in both movie reciepts
      and in videotape sales. Fenwick has alleged that this
      campaign of showing aliens in a good light, is part of the
      master plan of the EBEs (or aliens), who, for whatever
      ultimate reason, want people to have this benevolent view of
      them.

      That's about it. There was more, but perhaps when my memory
      is refreshed I will be able to recount the rest.]


                         [ - END OF FILE -]
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