SUBJECT: WGA CIRCLES THREAD EXPANDS TO COMPUSERVE            FILE: UFO1207

PART 1

                CIS THREAD(S) FOLLOWING
              SEPT. 22 UPLOAD OF CIRCLE.TXT.

     (Right margin adjusted for viewing utilities and
 loading by most word processors, text-with-line-breaks.)

(As of this date There were 52 downloads of this file from
ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10, uploaded Sept. 22, 1991).


             ------------------------

#: 45583 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   23-Sep-91  21:16:53
Sb: #45328-#Crop circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 (X)

There is a substantial thread on crop circles which has been
uploaded to Issues, Sec 10, Paranormal.  It was taken from
the Science and Health Forum of the WGA-BBS, a members-only
BBS for the Writers Guild of America (television and
screenwriters).  I was part of this discussion, which
develops some surprising but (for me) very satisfying
explanations.  The messages were uploaded on Compuserve
partly in hope that those with greater expertise in the
matters that are discussed -- millimeter and sub-millimeter
lasers, masers, the physical effects of ionized gases, etc
- would provide commentary.

There is 1 Reply.


#:
17555 S3/General
   30-Sep-91  05:47:24
Sb: #17344-Controversial new file
Fm: stuart lees 75300,247
To: Trevor Prinn (UK) 100016,2726

I'm inclined to agree with you about the hoaxers - they seem
to have been very quiet about their exploits since the
initial claims.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the circles,
and every explanation only seems to emphasise how little
anyone knows about them. I think the explanation for the
braiding given in circle.txt was to do with the maser
spinning as it was emitted...that doesnt explain the stalks
being bent at the same height though, does it. I must admit,
I find the maser idea a bit improbable - there have got to
be better test sites than Wiltshire - but then the whole
thing is improbable.

Have you seen any of these circles yourself Trevor?

-Stuart


#: 45683 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   29-Sep-91  00:21:36
Sb: #45675-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Since the thread that Sabaroff uploaded as CIRCLE.TXT, there
have been several more small indications that the thesis may
be correct.   In NATURE last week is an article called
"Measurement of atmospheric wavefront distortion using
scattered light from a laser guide-star",  which is based on
US Dept of Defense work that began secretly in 1981, and was
declassified in May of this year.  So it is clear that the
gov't has indeed been working within the general realm of
lasers and the atmos-/meso-sphere.

Also it has been discovered that the Dave/Doug hoaxster
confession was arranged by a "news agency" that receives
mail through its accountants, and does not have a telephone.
Dave and Doug were asked point-blank on a talk show if they
had ever been employed by a governmental intelligence
agency, but they refused to answer, and chose to laugh the
question off.

(I should point out that I was a participant in the
CIRCLE.TXT thread, and that I, too, am anxious for comment
or response from those most knowledgeable in the fields
under discussion.  In point of fact, I would be happier if
our conclusions were entirely incorrect,  and the circles
were the result of hoaxes, or whirlwinds.)


#: 45697 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   29-Sep-91  23:23:38
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael, needless to say I was delighted by the disclosures
regarding DOUG/DAVE.  We should bring them to L.A. and make
them producers.

On our WGA BBS, as you know, we also have a News and Current
events forum.  There were some things in President Bush's
recent speech regarding radical reductions in offensive
nuclear capabilities, and the centralization of reduced
stockpiles, *and the diversion of large portions of the
spared budget to B2 and SDI research* which I found
startling, to say the least. Since much of our CIRCLE.TXT
thread attributes (some) of the crop formations (calling
them simply "circles" now seems simplistic) to SDI connected
maser/laser experiments, some things make more sense.  The
press has tended to discredit the concept of SDI as do most
scientists, yet if we call it EARTH WARS instead of STAR
WARS it makes more sense.

Bush called for retention of retaliatory systems, such as
submarine based weapons, and the clustering of fixed site
silos - reduced to single warhead missiles.  Admirable, but
inconceivable unless we had something else to back it up.

A missile's greatest enemy is Electromagnetic Pulse Effect
(EMP), something that microwave energy generates in enormous
quantities.  I suspect when we talk about "hardening" silos
(or used to), the hardening referred to EMP, not structural
integrity.  This would suggest another credible function for
space borne maser technology - and submarines would be
shielded and cloaked from it. Am I looking too hard for a
positive side to all this...?

                              Bob


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45698 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  01:58:08
Sb: #45697-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

You've got it a bit wrong. EMP is *not* produced by
microwave emission. You can induce a phenomena that is
similiar, but much reduced in magnitude. This assumes that
you have lots of rust, aluminium oxide, and conductors of a
wavelength appropriate to the frequency. Otherwise it all
gets dissipated as heat. Not very much heat, at that.

Now, hardening *did* factor in EMP, but it also factored in
blast effect, radiation hardness, and so on. EMP is by
necessity a low frequency phenomenon - on the order of a few
10's of hertz at best - and mostly a DC voltage field at
that. The EMP test sites are the worlds largest ELF
generators. (ELF = Extremely Low Frequency - 10khz and
below.)
                                       Tom G.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45702 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  06:16:37
Sb: #45698-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

Tom, thanks for the clarification regarding the
microwave/EMP relationship. It's equally useful to know that
our logical processes have led us to an incorrect
association, as it is to be confirmed.  Perhaps more so, and
your obvious expertise is much appreciated.  We want to get
it right. Responses like yours are welcome because their
corrections lead to rethought questions.  Could a very
strong maser in any way affect the guidance and/or control
systems of a missile as it leaves it's silo?  And, if you
know, what range of frequencies are considered to fall
within the spectrum known as "microwave?"

It is also my understanding that a nuclear detonation above
ground would itself generate enough particle energy to
affect communications and other electronic systems, and that
such an event occured in the Pacific some years ago and
wasn't much publicized.  Are you aware of (that you can
discuss) any spectra of radiation other than light or
"microwave" which can be generated as coherent energy in a
way similar to the maser/laser technology?

Bob


#: 45716 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  17:35:59
Sb: #circle.txt
Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
To:  71251,2445 (X)

Bob,

One thing that would be of great interest regarding SDI
hypothesis would be the aspect of the ellipses (you as well
as others noted that they are not circles).  If beams struck
from geosynchonous orbit, they would all have the same
aspect - assuming the same platform.  However, I don't know
that SDI satellites would be geosynchronous.  Certainly
kinetic devices wouldn't be put out that far because of
transit time.  Beam weapons would have to deal with spread
and hence attenuation over that distance.

Be that as it may, the aspect ratio and orientation would be
very interesting. Of course, I am assuming our jokers are
using circular 'stencils'.  If the originating platform is
deliberately firing ellipses, all bets are off.

Jon Brunson 76477,1312

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45717 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  17:48:08
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Having just finished reading the recently uploaded
CIRCLE.TXT discussion, I wanted to commend you (as the
leading provocateur of the discussion) for what is by far
the most innovative and thoughtful analysis of the phenomena
I have yet encountered.  Never before came across a BBS
thread that made for such a compelling read!

Not being of a conspiratorial bent, I am struggling mightily
with your hypothesis that our defense establishment (or a
small "black area" therein) would deliberately utilize the
ancient circle legends of Wiltshire (a subject of rather
remarkable obscurity until recently!) to disguise the ground
effect of their maser/laser (or whatever) SDI tests.  If you
are correct that these are artifacts of SDI testing, would
it not be safe to assume that *every* possible safeguard
would be taken to insure the secrecy of the results?  If so,
it would seemingly require monumental courage and
presumptiousness for an SDI project manager to conclude that
the best of all possible testing alternatives would be a
public display on the plains of Wiltshire.  Would that our
defense bureaucrats had that kind of imagination and guts!

Another point; you mentioned that the technology necessary
to create these patterns was, in part at least, probably
made possible through the development of relatively high
temperature superconducters. However, did not the circle
phenomena develop in the early 80's, before these
breakthroughs occurred?  Seems to me that the *real*
technological breakthrough was made at the time the first
circles were created in the early 80's.  The developments in
the circle patterns since the early days reflect a
relatively slow and plodding developmental pace (fairly
modest variations on a theme) considering the magnitude of
the original breakthrough (that would allow a circle to be
created in the first place. [continued in the reply]

There are 2 Replies.

#: 45718 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  17:48:12
Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

[continued]

Anyway, keep up the good work in prodding people to do some
analytical thinking about one of the more intriguing
mysteries of our time.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45726 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  20:38:46
Sb: #45718-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

In the most recent issue of Nature is an article based on
research and testing done by the Dept of Defense, starting
in 1981, of ground to air laser imaging. As I make out, they
were creating pin-points -- for use as artificial star-
guides -- at a height of ten miles.   This is spectacular
lack of beam attenuation.

The authors note that this work has continued since 1981,
but was de-classified (to a degree) in May of this year.  So
we know now that related work was going on, in the time
frame under discussion.


#: 45727 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  23:39:06
Sb: #45702-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

I should give some clarifications to my answer, first of all
- it was rather late, and I was briefer in my reply than I
meant to be. Large, (by large I mean gigawatts) transmitters
can affect the guidance system of a missile by means of
electromagnetic coupling. You can see this effect in a more
limited fashion (and with a slightly different pathway) in
your television set, when the next door ham beams a kilowatt
down your TV antenna. Most of the energy is dissipated as
heat in the receiving antenna, but a couple of volts of RF
will still be coupled into the set. A simple filter will
prevent this from being a problem - the energy gets
dissipated as heat in the filter.

Heating effects of a magnitude to severly disrupt a missile
are by no means certain. You *can* potentially swamp a
sensor with the coupled energy. Simple screening would take
care of that. We do it all of the time. (Look at the door of
your microwave oven for an example.)

The most promising beam weapons are the neutral particle
beam and the laser - either X-Ray, IR, or gamma. No one has
produced a gamma ray laser yet, and we don't have a clue
about how to do it, but it *is* theoretically possible.
Masers are non-starters - they're bloody fussy beasts. You
could use them in theory, but not in practice.

The test you are refering to is Dominic Starfish Prime. This
test was designed to test the effects of high-altitude burst
on radio communications and radar, and not coincidentally,
to test the long range effects of EMP. These effects were
first noticed during a then secret three-shot high altitude
test in the South Atlantic - the Argus series - sometime in
1958. Three more high-altitude bursts took place in the
Dominic series, but only one had sufficient size to have
anything more than negligble effect. The earliest reference
in the open literature that I have is in the 1964 edition of
"The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". By the Third edition <
Cont'd >

There are 2 Replies.


#: 45728 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  23:41:13
Sb: #45716-#circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 (X)

Jon, the ellipses might be accounted for either by very
slight drift of the stationary beam source, or by angle of
incidence if it were slightly off a perpendicular with the
target below.  Considering the physical dimensions of most
of the formations, and presuming a width of less than a
centimeter for the point of emission, that's well within the
paramaters of experiments already conducted here.  From
25,000 miles - the altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter, the
width of the formations is not contra-indicated by published
test results *in the atmosphere.*.  From overhead, the beam
would have to penetrate a desnsity unit of only one
Atmosphere - 14.7 lbs/sq. inch.  Surface experiments produce
less spread than we're seeing, over ground distances with an
"equivalence" of ten or more atmospheres.

Such experiments have been done at an aerospace facility in
the hills of Malibu, quite close to where I live.  The
stated purpose was to accurately place a stationary spot on
terrain MANY miles away, for studies of tiny increments of
earth movement - ostensibly for earthquake detection study.

As a pilot, I have made many approaches into the smog of Los
Angeles.  From overhead, the ground can be clearly seen, but
when descending into the layer at a normal rate of descent,
one is looking forward into it edgewise. Visibility
sometimes drops from unlimited (downward) to less than a 1/4
mile edgewise.  That's one reason an instrument rating is so
important here.  As to attenuation, we can already use
kinetic devices to cut plate steel. I don't find it
inconceivable that given the very high emission power
possible, that we would still receive enough energy over
that distance, and relatively narrow spread (1 cm. < 100
yards) to produce an effect. Also, geosynchronicity would be
a must for precision, and prehaps safety. (*more on stencils
in reply*)                                           Bob.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45729 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  23:41:28
Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

Erik, your encouraging and complimentary response to
CIRCLE.TXT is received with delight by all involved.
Thanks!  We're all professional writers, and have decided to
place you in our Wills.  We can be a vain lot...

Re the conspiratorial aspect of the whole thing, I think it
was the true purpose of STAR wars in the first place.  Too
many scientists debunked it in open hearings, while closed-
door appropriations committees kept pouring classified money
into it for me to believe it wasn't something "other" from
the outset. As to the secrecy of the results, the likelihood
was that the results might have been unpredictably
detectable by the spy satellites of other countries (this
started many years before Gorbachev).  By placing the
formations in a location (I'm also presuming an Anglo-
American co-venture) which would guarantee obfuscation by
the metaphysical history of the location, and simulating it,
the story stayed on the occult book shelves for years.

"It's an old story...".  The perfect confounder for a new
story. And so the CCCS book confirms.  Great photos, not one
word about the possibility of artifacts of human technology.
Obviously, it worked.  It's taken over ten years to get to
this discussion. This kind of planning would have taken
place among a very few at the top - certainly beyond the
"need-to-know" of a project manager.  By that I mean Joint
Chiefs, the NSA, CIA, Executive branch.  The shuttle pilots
who may have deployed the orbiter(s) need not have known
their function - only where to put them.

As for the superconductor breakthroughs, "relatively high"
temperatures are still on an order of -200 deg. C, making
large scale experiments a lot more practical in the ambient
conditions of space.  In the CCCS book, the increasing
precision and sophistication of the formations over the
years indicates progressive refinement of the technology.

[more in reply]


#: 45730 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   30-Sep-91  23:53:39
Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

the effect is discussed in depth. I do remember that there
was discussion of the effect at the time of the tests - Life
magazine had a story on it, and the West Coast and Oahu
papers also ran stories. The effect is discussed in
"Fundamentals Of Naval Weapons Systems", and the various
electronic packaging manuals have sections on it. Like a lot
of things, the information was out in the open, but you had
to know where to look. (Also, those of us working on such
things took them for granted - "Hey, that's *old* news.
<G>). EMP, BTW, is *only* apparent at a distance in high-
altitude bursts. Low altitude bursts dissipate the pulse
through ground coupling within a few 10's of miles. (The
distance also has a heck of a lot to do with the size of the
device. The higher yield the device, the more powerful the
EMP).
                                       Tom G.

#: 17563 S3/General
   30-Sep-91  08:09:29
Sb: #17529-Controversial new file
Fm: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob,

Your comments on the lunar laser detection experiment were
interesting.  I had been under the impression that the
purpose of the experiment was to validate the accuracy of
lunar ranging in general.  In any case, DETECTION of a
laser's reflection off the moon is a far cry from IMAGING a
doughnut shape on the ground, with sharp edges, isn't it?

ac


#: 17675 S3/General
   01-Oct-91  03:03:16
Sb: #17563-Controversial new file
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764

This week's NATURE reports work supported by the US Dept of
Defense,  starting in 1981, to focus a ground-based laser to
a pin-point ten miles above the surface of the earth.  (This
to emulate a star's light, for focussing telescopes.)  The
work was secret for ten years, and was partially de-
classified in May of this year.

Lasers can jiggle single atoms about; even from a great
height, a football field is a pretty large canvas, in
comparison.


#: 17668 S3/General
   01-Oct-91  01:31:16
Sb: Controversial new file
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764

Allen, to the best of my knowledge, the lunar laser
detections experiments had no (disclosed) relationship to
SDI.  That its success may have confirmed for some the
possibilities, and thus helped to launch it, is unknowable
(yet). That was back in the early '70's.

The reflectors left on the moon were formed to compensate
for spreading over that great distance, and in that respect
resembled extremely long focal-length reflectors not unlike
telescope mirrors.  What was ascertained was that a laser
could be aimed from earth, reach the moon adequately
collimated to access the reflector, and return through the
atmosphere and be seen.

I never meant to infer that this related directly to crop
imaging from a much more advanced technology than that, from
a source only 25,000 miles away, as opposed to the
earth-moon round trip of 476,000 miles.  The example was
cited to demonstrate the length of time research has been
going on.

Essentially, CIRCLE.TXT explores the idea that
masers/lasers/whatevers, of power outputs and collimating
efficiencies using enhanced superconductive technologies not
yet stated, are able to create artifactual images through a
stencil, from a geosynchronous orbiter(s), much like a
"cookie cutter."

Bob

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45731 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   01-Oct-91  01:07:11
Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

Tom, thanks for the generous addendum to your prior on EMP.
(I got the reply, too).  Most of the publicity on EMP I've
seen had to do with gamma effects - to with a random cosmic
ray momentarily zapping a logic gate in some bank's
computer, resulting in a billing error.  I know it's more
general than that, and I appreciate the organization you
offered. I was especially struck by your mention of other
potential beam scenarios such as X-Ray and IR.  I'd
entertained the notion of the latter, but left it out of the
discussion because of the many crop effects that occured
while under the surveillance of thermographic sensors and
light amplifiers.  All that was seen was new circles in the
morning.  I'd have presumed that thermography would have
shown an IR effect, though it may be a mistake to presume
anything at this point.

I was struck by your inference that gamma ray lasers have at
least been pondered, and may be theoretically possible.
I'll file that one.

I'd also like to add what a pleasure it is getting credible
information from one actively involved in related science.
My late father (a ham, K6JW) was a senior scientist on
Surveyor, at Hughes.  He degugged the communications system,
hired based on his invention of a pulse-modulated AM
transmitter which reached (in 1957-8) the MARS station,
KC4USA, at McMurdo Sound using 20 watts input to final, from
Philadelphia.  They didn't believe him, because his signal
strength was below noise level, but his intelligibility was
higher.  I know what you mean about *old* news.  When
Surveyor landed, he shrugged, knowing Apollo was only a
matter of time, and was already on his way to Mars.  He was
"on" Voyager, and made it out of the Solar System.

Thanks again for the fascinating information.

Bob


#: 45732 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   01-Oct-91  01:07:25
Sb: #45728-circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

(contined)

I'm presuming circular stencils, Jon.  What makes pursuit of
the "cookie cutter" thread so compelling - whatever the
exact energy source - is the later, ever increasing
appearance of not just circles, but circles connected by
straight lined, in turn bisected at right angles, with
parallel liner formations alongside: and all perfectly
aligned with the natural furrows in the fields.  Drift might
not be detectable in rectilinear formations in the form of
obvious distortion, as in a circle/ellipse effect.

They also make a compelling argument for the stencil theory.
In leafing through page after page of these things, one sees
the compound structures with linear elelents starting to
proliferate [not to mention the one called "the insect"
which looks exactly like an Anasazi petroglyph (Arizona) I
have in a Smithsonian catalogue of such things, printed in
the 1870's].

But the most striking resmblance of the compound circle/line
structures is their resemblance to *sighting reticules.*  I
understand that crop circle events are proliferating
elsewehere in the world.  It's interesting to speculate if
the preliminary sighting, collimating, and power control
systems done in Wiltshire have reached a point where it is
now necessary to move on to other areas.

If the mythology of Britain were the first cover, recent
documentaries on UFO's in S.E. British airbases
("Unexplained Mysteries") which included active duty
personnel - hitherto inconceivable - might not mean that the
Military is priming a new confounder.  "Give it to the
UFOlogists now..."

Bob


#: 45733 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   01-Oct-91  01:07:39
Sb: #45729-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

(contined)

Erik, I wanted to comment on the relative obscurity of the
archeology of the Plains of Wiltshire.  Albert Watkins work
on the ley lines, from the 20's, and the more "academically
accepted" work of such scientists as Alexander Thom, Gerald
Hawkins, and others - are widely published and seriously
studied here.  Especially since the new respectability of
"ArcheoAstronomy," and its adoption and accreditation by a
number of pretty "straight" asronomers.  Even the late nobel
laureate, Richard Feynman was interested.

There are hundreds of books in print on the subject.  Just
as "space travel" was relegated to the science fiction book
shelves until Neil Armstrong made the discussion respectable
by "doing it," so it was with the standing stones and
circular mounds and more sophisticated structures such as
Stonehenge, Men Antol, Maes Howe (Orkneys), Avebury,
Glastonbury, and the demonstration (as opposed to theory),
that alignments had geodetic and astronomical significance.

In Chaco Canyon, Arizona, for example, these same
researchers are now discovering the same functions in
hitherto obscure structures and enigmatic petroglyphs.
There is considerable interest.

One can only imagine the effect in England itself, with
writers such as Jon Michel and others popularizing the
subject over the year - with Ley Line Societies debating in
print...  with a sub rosa national obsession over the truly
fascinating reality of what has been in place for over 4000
years...  What a fabulous cover!  It makes the rules of
evidence unmanageable.

Bob


#: 45751 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   01-Oct-91  22:16:40
Sb: #circle.txt
Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
To:  71251,2445 (X)

Bob,

My only point about the elliptical shape was that if you
fire a circle the image is elliptical due to the angle of
incidence and curvature of the earth.  If the aspect and
orientation were consistent, it would be a pretty strong
piece of evidence for a stationary platform in space.

Another aspect of the phenomenon to consider is how the
stalks fall.  Not only do they swirl both clockwise and
counter, they also have been known to fall all in the same
direction.  In one circle, there was a small central swirl
and the stalks in each quadrant fell in the same direction
at right angles to those in adjacent quadrants.  In still
other cases, they all fell directly centrifugally.  These
and other idiosyncratic (for want of a better word)
behaviors make SDI a less than viable hypothesis.

Some have used the term conspiracy to characterize your
conjecture.  I don't see that has the right connotation for
one or two governments testing weapons systems.  That is
what they are supposed to do.  I love the mindset
demonstrated by Erik when he suggested defense bureaucrats
lack imagination and guts.  Military Intelligence is not an
oxymoron as the joke goes.  Military types may have
different goals than the average civilian type and use all
sorts of means to gain them, and they would just as soon
have you underestimate their abilities.  It makes their job
easier.

Jon Brunson

There are 3 Replies.


#: 45753 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   02-Oct-91  04:20:49
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

There has been a fair amount of work done on the circles,
hoping to explain them by freak weather conditions and so
forth.  In the published papers, the scientists say that the
patterns could be formed by ionized cushions of air.  In
fact part of their problem was to figure out how even
anomalous weather patterns could be configured to do the
same thing that lasers would do in creating the cushions and
the ionized atmosphere.  The Japanese scientist who
evidently did reproduce the strange patterns did so using a
laser over (I forget which) metallic or semi-metallic
substance.

This is all talked about in circle.txt.  What should be
emphasized is that the lasers (if they exist) are not
cutting the crops directly (as lasers are wont to do in
movies about bank heists); they are ionizing the atmosphere,
creating a "microclimate", and it is this that bends the
stalks in a certain way according to the dynamics of the air
pocket, that creates a sporadic light show, and brings
reports of electromagnetic disturbances.


#: 45754 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   02-Oct-91  06:01:55
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

Thanks for the clarification of your question regarding
"elliptical," Jon. It actually makes an answer to the
question simpler to state.  If I were conducting what I
believe to be preliminary refinements - targeting,
stability, energy emission control, beam spread... I would
feel silly (as I sort of do) for not having also factored in
the curvature of the earth as a distorting element.  Yes,
that could certainly be a factor, except that it would be a
radial effect, resulting in a slightly wider circle.

Angle of incidence is another story, but I would hope that
great effort would go into acheiving a perfect vertical.
That still leaves drift, and not very much at that.  I find
it hard to imagine a stationary satellite at 25,000 miles
which would be *perfectly* stationary, and all things
considered, the degree of ellipticality (?) is small enough
to suggest relatively great stability.  The obvious way to
achieve this is through the gyroscopic effects (precession-
compensated) of rapid spin.

It's admittedly a leap to the notion that the spinning beam
(behind a contra-rotating stencil) might in some way cause
the patterns of layover, but we are still after all, in the
brainstorming stage and don't claim to have all the answers.
I'm sure there are many secrets out there.

I've also seen pictures of the really radical patterns you
mention.  I don't have the answer to all the specifics, but
I don't think the remaining enigmas are enough to (yet)
dismiss the overall scenarios.  We have a superstructure
that's conceivable.  We may be a long way from dotting the
"i"'s.  From what I know of how secrets are kept, we all may
be startled by the effects manifested by the technology
itself. Conspiracy and underestimated abilities ahead.


#: 45755 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   02-Oct-91  06:02:11
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

I think that the term "conspiracy" in this context is a _non
sequitur_. I've been involved enough in serious research
into assassination conspiracy to know that the term can be a
red herring.  With few exceptions I've found "lone assassin"
conclusions to be manifestations of the collective denial of
something that's "too bad to be true,"  and therefore
processed by the brain into invisibility, to keep anxiety
threshholds tenable. As the denial begins to weaken there is
perceived a second conspiracy to conceal the first
conspiracy, when in fact the second conspiracy is often the
clinical denial of the first one, seen in retrospect. I find
hope in that... Maybe truth is immortal after all.  It just
takes getting used to.

"Conspiracy" connotes a clinical mindest suggestive of
paranoia, always a convenience when needed.  I agree, Jon,
that the testing of weapons can require a great deal of
coordination among the participants to hide the pattern
produced if the elements are allowed to connect.  The
security structure of the Manhattan Project is a classic
example.

I also enjoyed Erik's citation of "imagination and guts."
Whoever put this number together had to be amply endowed
with both.  I even see a sense of humor at work in the
"Arizona petroglyph."

So where does conspiracy end an symbiosis leave off.  Take
the lowly termite.  Each termite is a conspiracy all its
own, its G.I. tract being a safe house for a protozoa,
complete with room and board.  The termite grinds up the
wood like a food processor so the protozoa (a
dinoflagellate, I think) can ingest it, and the termite
assimilates the nutrient wastes and byproducts that
result.

Top level Military and industrial security is something
else.   Bob.


#: 45760 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   02-Oct-91  18:26:44
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

Joe, it was not my intention to take impugn any aspect of
the military intelligence community.  However, I see how my
remark might have left such an impression.  The point I was
making was this; in order to give credence to the SDI theory
being discussed here, one has to imbue SDI project managers
with a combination of characteristics (knowledge of group
psychology, history, a LARGE dose of chutzpah, just to name
a few) that, to my knowledge (admittedly not comprehensive)
have not been similarly demonstrated in other projects.

Unless I missed it, I have yet to see any discussion
regarding why all the circles are formed at night.  Is it
possible that sunlight interferes with the process, or does
selection of Wiltshire as a proving ground require after
dark testing in order to avoid the possibility that the
cicrle formation will be directly witnessed?  If the latter,
then the selection of this location would certainly seem to
impose a significant handicap to R&D activities unless you
assume (rather unlikely I would think) that direct daylight
observation of the process adds nothing significant to the
testing.


There is 1 Reply.



#: 45795 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   03-Oct-91  21:36:32
Sb: #45583-Crop circles
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

I downloaded that file and I found it interesting.  You're
right -- there are a lot of ideas discussed there that don't
show up elsewhere for some reason.


#: 45798 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   04-Oct-91  00:37:38
Sb: #45795-Crop circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335

I'm glad you read it.  Really, the only thing that I'm
trying to push is a search for the truth -- wherever that
leads.  I've no emotional investment in one solution over
another -- or rather the one solution I'm wedded to is the
>right< one.  What was presented in that thread -- and what
information has been garnered since that thread -- still
suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the
result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from
geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.

The presence of experts in allied fields is the reason for
pushing the matter here.  I hope others will take down the
thread and read it through.


#: 45823 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   04-Oct-91  20:22:41
Sb: #CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

>>What was presented in that thread -- and what information
has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that
the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of
military/intelligence laser/maser testing from
geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.<<

It strikes me that the evidence presented in CIRCLE.txt and
subsequent discussions can, at best, be described as
suggesting only that SDI testing is a theory that appears to
address more aspects of the phenomena than ony other.
Considering the wackiness of most of the other theories,
that's not really saying much. Interesting for sure, but a
whole lot of holes yet to be filled!

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45833 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  03:58:42
Sb: #45823-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Absolutely.  It is only a suggestion.  But I hear that the
two men who confessed were asked point blank on a television
interview if they had ever been employed by an intelligence
organization, and they didn't give a straight answer.  That,
also, the "news organization"  which controls them and their
story doesn't not actually have a telephone number, and its
only address is through its accounting firm.  That the USDoD
releases the information that it has been working with
ground-to-air laser focussing systems since 1981.  That for
the first time the USDoD allowed members of the military to
appear on camera to talk about UFOs, and actually played up
the possibility that there are strange things happening in
the skies over south-Eastern England.  The announcement last
week that the DoD was going to be putting its own smaller
satellites into orbit, and not rely on NASA, which is too
public and too unreliable.  And so on.   Such scattered
notes fit and enhance one scenario, and they do not fit any
other.

It's a far too complicated matter for anyone to claim
certainty.  But I don't go back on my simple point: since
the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this
explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other.
(And in any case, it's not half so tortured as what
Astrophysicists are having to do to shore up red-shift as
purely a cosmological factor, and directly and only related
to distance.)


#: 45837 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  06:11:07
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

If you start with the assumption that all big secrets
ultimately get leaked, (and the parameters of this one make
it a great candidate for ultimate "leaking"), then the DoD
is setting itself up for some bigtime embarrasment down the
road.  If they are smart enough to pull this off, they are
certainly smart enough to recognize that it won't be a
secret forever.  How will they explain the duplicity? or are
you suggesting that they really don't care?


#: 45844 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  07:59:08
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

>>But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread
has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation,
and only more difficult to accept any other.<<

In reading my prior message I realized I didn't address this
comment.  Just wanted you to know that I agree totally with
this statement.  Unfortunately, the *competing* theories,
being so relatively lightweight, provide a very poor
benchmark against which to make comparisons.


#: 45849 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  10:11:27
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)

Erik, thanks for permission to send this private exchange we
had when I responded to your #45760 to Jon Brunson regarding
secrecy and day/night testing, and assorted items.

Before I became a freelance writer in the entertainment
industry (including credits in "Star Trek: Both
Generations," and also a lot of Earth stuff) I worked in a
division of RAND, in Santa Monica, as a Dept. Editor, and
was very involved in who got to know what.  The SDI stuff
we're brainstorming would have been strictly Top Secret (I
only held Secret), and on an ironclad "need-to-know" basis.
Most of the people working on it would have no idea of the
nature of the goal - only the component(s) in which they
were involved - much like during the development of the A-
bomb.  Project Managers wouldn't have come under this
category.  SDI may be among the most sensitive projects
since then, if it is in fact a disinforming title.

The group psychology and history could very well have come
from a Think Tank such as RAND, the product of a very few
specialists under NSA level security.  That's heavy duty
*tight.*  The chutzpah was in the funding of it, as it was
publicly described as something which couldn't work.  And
now, in Bush's latest speeches on disarmament, he openly
speaks of rediverting some of the newly freed funds to SDI.
That is clearly chutzpah.  There are other, even more
cockamamey projects that must have required even more of the
same in the selling.

Anyway, on to night/day testing.


#: 45852 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  10:21:21
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

You noted something which hasn't been discussed and should
have been - the day versus night testing.  Accuracy over the
25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be
unpredictable altered by a daytime sky - if only by the
gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other
radiations - the demonstration of which was one of the early
supports for Relativity.

Another argument for night testing is the diminished chance
of a field being occupied at the time of exposure.  Another
is that if laser-dot hot spots are used for sighting and
alignment, these would be much more effective at night.  Yet
another is that R&D would be concerned mainly with the
effect, not the process.  Night would give cover for an
effect that may take hours to complete.  It would also make
the recording of sonic effects easier.

And, a big unknown is the time lag between exposure and
effect, if any. As for R&D activities in general, I think we
can presume that the formation process itself would have
been thoroughly studied in smaller scales, as indicated by
the various experiments cited my Michael McDowell in other
messages.

Your questions were good ones.

Bob


#: 45853 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  10:21:36
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob, your exposure to the people involved in these types of
projects clearly gives your opinion some credibility
regarding their capability to both invent and successfully
execute something this remarkable.  I can only defer to your
judgement in that regard.  Yet.......10 years is an awfully
long time for our government to keep anything truly secret.
Especially something that would have so many of its
participants quietly smirking at the great joke they were
playing on the world press.  You have have referred to the
Manhattan Project several times and I am aware of the
remarkable secrecy that was enforced.  But times have
changed dramatically since then and I suspect that similar
efforts today would be considerably less successful.

>>Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about
would be unpredictably altered by a daytime sky - if only by
the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and
other radiations<<

Some of your other speculations for night circle formations
are persuasive, but this one needs a little more support.
For instance, it suggests that all the crop circles are
formed only when the satellite is in the earth's shadow.  I
don't know what period of time a geosynchronous satellite
would be in the earth's shadow, but if this is a requirement
for accuracy, the project has a *long* way to go before it
results in any significant defensive capability.  Same is
true if the process takes hours to complete. Why spend
millions putting up a space weapon platform that, after 10
years of testing, requires hours to achieve the desired
effect?  Seems to me that we wouldn't put it up until we had
largely overcome that difficulty.


#: 45854 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  10:21:41
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

An additional issue I have yet to see addressed by this
theory is the obvious problem of what becomes of the testing
program when the "crop season" ends in Wiltshire.  Just call
it a day and wait for next spring? Obviously not, yet no one
(at least none that I can recall) has put forth a theory as
to what testing alternatives go into effect in the fall and
winter.  Your thoughts?


#: 45859 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  12:00:33
Sb: CIRCLE.EXE
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)

Erik, I clearly have a lot to learn about the /split
commnad... This is in response to # 45853-4, your response
to my # 45851-2 (whatever the headers say.) They started out
private.  Sorry about the chaos.

I think I'm being read as suggesting a much more developed
stage of technology than we have actually reached.  If my
theory is correct, I think that what we're seeing is the
very early stages of developing of something that may not
mature until the next century.  Michael McDowell has cited
some of the experiments on laboratory scale, and I see
geosynchronous orbiter tests as a natural next step.  I
think we're seeing the refinement of fundamental techniques,
not fully developed systems.  I see fine tuning of prototype
technology, collimating methods, focussing - and even
learning to compensate for natural effects (such as gravity
bending and surface sphericity) at low levels of energy
compared to what it might lead to.

I also see a natural evolution of the application of known
technologies to defense systems (hopefully) and other
applications.  In my own mind what I'm doing is
extrapolating that which already exists and amplifying it
forward in time.  The smart bombs demonstrated in Iraq were
certainly mind-blowers, given the relatively primitive toys
which the previous generation of guided missiles used -
which was awesome when it appeared.  Nothing has been put
forth here based on a technology which doesn't in fact
already exist.  We have put not millions, but billions into
it, and if we can make complex patterns in a field from a
sattelite, 10 years is a few minutes, having started with
simple lab experiments.


#: 45860 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   05-Oct-91  12:00:46
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)

So what I'm saying is essentially in agreement with you,
Eric.  It does indeed have a long way to go, but the signs
exist to anticipate what's coming.  As to the completion
time of the process, I suspect that the actual exposure time
is quite short.  I have no idea how long the effect takes to
become completed.  Given the normal exponential acceleration
of development of such things as we're imagining (literally,
I'm sure many believe) we only have a glimmer of the
possibilities.  If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over
England, I'd be surprised if it was more than an early
prototype of a technology that may not even have a name yet.

The question in your last, "what happens when the crop
season ends in England," is, according to the latest
reports, answering itself.  There has been a tremendous
proliferation of clustered events in other parts of the
world - including Japanese rice fields.  I don't know when
they harvest rice, but it's happening.  And as was noted in
some priors, we're being handed Air Force UFO stories now,
as though the Metaphysical cover is about to be handed to
the UFOlogists, so that other sites can be visited openly.

Given the proliferation of other current sites, I'd say the
testing alternatives for fall and winter are already being
tuned up, if not operating.

Bob


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45884 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  02:41:05
Sb: #45837-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

I don't start with the assumption that all big secrets
ultimately get leaked.  Or, rather, even if they do, the
truth is not always universally accepted.

In general, the higher you go in any chain of command,
whether in corporate America, the White House, the Military,
Hollywood studios,  or the Boy Scouts of America --
decisions can be (and very often are) made for trivial
reasons, that usually have to do with personal ego, and
rarely with the ultimate good of an organization.  It's only
rarely possible to trace these things back.  Which is to
say, I don't know why the military, or intelligence, or
whatever is working the way they are (if indeed they are
involved at all in the crop circles).  I can imagine,
however, that allowing the UFO incident in the early 80s in
se England to have the participation of military personnel
was an attempt to confuse the crop circle business even
further.  (The show also included mock-ups of purported
ships, and the light effects were suggested; it is possible
that these were deliberately slanted away from the actual
effects, a case of image disinformation.)

By the way, I do not consider the above evidence of
anything.  But if the military do have somewhat to do with
the crop circles, then the above makes sense of an abrupt
and apparently unique departure of practice by the military.
I like theories which explain other phenomena, more than I
like theories that have to be altered in order to fit other
phenomena.


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45885 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  02:47:01
Sb: #45854-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

I read that the two gentlemen who confessed to the crop
circles,  tried to produce another in daylight and before
witnesses.  But its quality was distinctly below par.  They
blamed this on the fact that it was so near to harvest.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45886 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  03:03:40
Sb: #45852-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob:

Maybe you or someone else here can look at the 12 Sept 91
issue of Nature, and see if the discussions there bear more
than the obvious relevance to what we're talking about.
There's even a photograph (oddly fake-looking) of a laser
beaming up to a point in the atmosphere.  They discuss
making pin-point of light at heights of 1 K, and then also
at 80-100K.

The News and Views article talks about the secret military
testing of laser optics through the atmosphere, which was
only partially de-classified a few months ago.  The two
articles themselves give detailed explanations of
experiments partially based on the military work as applied
to telescopes.  I don't have the knowledge to figure this
out. Primmerman et al.'s work was supported by the Defense
Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Strategic Defense
Initiative Organization and the Army Strategic Defense
Command.  The Lincoln Lab (MIT) scientists worked out of the
Mt Haleakala telescope and beam director on Maui.


#: 45887 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  06:15:10
Sb: #45886-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Thanks for the tip on the Nature article, Michael.  Among
the times that try persons' souls is when they let the wrong
subscription lapse.  Like, I need Conde Nast right now.

The reason for the classification of military
laser/telescope technology may have been due to its use in
the Stealth fighter in hot-spotting Cruise missile targets.
With current disclosures about the Stealth's (relatively)
high visibility to "pulsed" low frequency radar.  There may
be a need to loosen "need-to-know" (the usual reason for
diminished classification) to preserve or increase funding
in that specific area.  On the other hand...

The telescope research is especially intriguing, as the
curvature of the mirror (presuming reflectors) must be a
super-precise parabola (as opposed to circle or ellipse) to
focus all the visible wavelengths to a white spot. As a
childhood amateur telescope maker, I remember the anguish of
chromatic abberation if it wasn't just right.  When you
start talking about the ranges you describe, and the funding
agencies, It's certainly suggestive - not of answers so much
as new questions.  I'll follow up on the references. Thanks.

Bob


#: 45888 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  06:15:17
Sb: #45885-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael, has anybody yet tried faking one of the straight
line formations connecting circles, complete with parallel,
unconnected bars, (the ones that look so much like sighting
reticules) without leaving a trace of their traverse to or
from the sight?

Do they use stilts, or what?  I once had a Chevvie that
cornered like stilts...

In all fairness, I'm sure some of the formations are
fakes... Uh, I wonder how one fakes a circle in a rice
paddy.  They're in the Orient, now.

Bob


#: 45889 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  07:21:37
Sb: #45884-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael, I cannot take issue with anything you said.  The
recent willingness of the military establishment to
participate in UFO discussions is indeed a curious turn of
events.

In any event, if the military is responsible for crop circle
formation, some person or group of people is coordinating
the various aspects of the program.  Can you or Bob cite any
historical precedent for a military disinformation campaign
(in modern history) that reached so deeply into pop culture?
Is it possible that the dimensions of this campaign are so
wide as to overreach itself and thus guarantee that people
such as yourself will take note and try to strip the covers
off?


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45890 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  07:21:48
Sb: #45860-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

>>If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over England, I'd
be surprised if it was more than an early prototype of a
technology that may not even have a name yet.<<

Bob, would seem that under the discussed scenario the
question is not "if" but "how many".  Unless geosynchronous
satellites have a helluva lot more maneuverability than I
ever expected.  Where is/are  it/they?  Over Britain, Japan,
Australia?  And assuming your explanation to be correct,
that's great for this year if the other sightings do turn
out to be legit.  But what about prior years when the whole
phenomena evaporated at the end of September?

Please don't misinterpret my queries as anything more than
an effort to  facilitate the fleshing out of a theory that
remains the best explanation I've yet heard for the origin
of crop circles.  So far you are doing a splendid job.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45920 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   06-Oct-91  16:52:57
Sb: #45889-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

Any historical precedent?

A disinformation campaign about the dangers of nuclear
radiation.  It continues today.  Nobody's dying, nobody
died.  Nobody's sick, nobody ever got sick except a little
nausea.

And, I also remember, a few years in there when we were not
bombing Laos, and no planes were flying over Cambodia, and
even today, the CIA still doesn't get any money from poppies
in the poppy fields of those beleaguered lands.  I believe
there are still a few Big Deals that we don't know about
Vietnam, mostly the getting-in part -- and if I'm right,
there's a second fiction the military has maintained for
over ten years.


#: 45949 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  06:46:16
Sb: #45890-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Eric, your queries are terrific!  The whole purpose of this
is to literally brainstorm the Q's and A's from different
perspectives, that will fill in a "most credible possible
scenario."  I was very pleased by your compliment, and thank
you for it.  If I'm giving good answers, it's because I'm
getting quality questions.

The question, having come this far with the line of inquiry,
is indeed *how many,* and not *if.*  I hope I can get the
/split command right, because I need to lay out some stuff
about geosynchronous sattelites.  If you already know the
fundamentals, forgive me, but other readers may not know.  A
geosynchronous sattelite is one that maintains a fixed
position over a point on the earth.  It does this by
maintaining an altitude high enough so that orbital velocity
is the same as the speed of the rotation of the earth below
it - the required altitude is about 25,000 miles.

They can be launched as the payload of a conventional
booster, or deployed from a Shuttle - the super-secret
missions of which date back to around the time Wiltshire
began having its "experience." One is simply released from
the cargo bay, and propelled upward to synchronous altitude
with it's own propulsion system.  If payload requirements
allow the necessary systems and fuel, they can also be
retrieved by lowering them with ground control commands to a
decaying orbit, followed by a rendezvous with a Shuttle,
which can retrieve it, bring it home, repair it, refuel it,
even redeploy it. (The Hubble Telescope is due for a repair,
when "other priorities" are out of the way.)

(Networking and other stuff follows)

[More]


#: 45950 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  06:46:29
Sb: #45949-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

The first geosynchronous satellites (GS's for short) were
Intelligence gatherers, but at the turn of the '80's became
better known for their "sattelite weather pictures" on the
TV news.  Before pilots could get the pictures directly,
they used to watch the 6:00 A.M. CNN news for them.  It was
more informative than a weather briefing.  More and more
GS's got deployed, and now the earth is pretty well covered.
There was a bad hole in the coverage, until recently, when
one of the Pacific GS's went out.

More recently, a network of them was deployed to furnish
global navigation servcices to ships at sea, and aircraft,
and is performing superbly. Another was recently deployed as
a communication link for Shuttles, to relay communications
when the Shuttle was out of range of a ground station.
Always a dangerous time.  So, "how many" is a given.  I
don't know how many in close proximity it requires to "do a
Wiltshire," but clusters would be simple.  And yes, they
have considerable local maneuverability.  Using on board
thrusters, small changes in altitude would result in lateral
movement, aided by directional thrusters.  If we could
control a soft lunar lander (Surveyor, on which my father
was a Senior Scientist) in the early '60's, precisely
maneuvering a GS at a fraction of that distance is no big
deal.

I would presume that the number has proliferated
considerably, and that the ones were talking about are
networked.  (I'll be back in a few minutes with an
interesting reference from the original upload,
CIRCLE.TXT...)

Bob


#: 45952 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  07:23:13
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576

Eric, following up on my prior about sattelite positioning,
I went to extract something that Michael McDowell had
contributed to CIRCLE.TXT, in his message #888 therein.  We
had been discussing what was controversial, in England, of
the disposition of Castle Herstmonceaux, a prior site of the
Royal Greenwich Observatory.  It's in the area of crop
circle activity. Countering a bit of disinformation that the
telescopes there were no longer in use, a correspondent
Englishman on CompuServe wrote:

"The Satellite Laser Ranger scope at Herstmonceaux is still
used by the RGO [Royal Greenwich Observatory] for measuring
orbits of artificial sattelites, for measuring precise
earth-rotation parameters..."

Michael also noted in that message, since confirmed, that in
the 1991 season crop circles have spread across Europe, with
"notable formations appearing in Sweden, near Wiesbaden and
near Cologne in Germany, in the Netherlands, in Italy, in
Bulgaria, In Yugoslavia, and in Siberia.  About three dozen
have been formed in Japan."

Bob


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45953 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  08:24:21
Sb: #45920-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, I wanted to add a bit to the list of disinformation
campains, though in some cases the disinformation was
intended not for the pop culture, but for its elected
leaders.  (I also want to apologize for ripping off your
stuff about Castle Herstmonceaux in a prior to eric, and
signing my name twice on something.  At least I've mastered
/split.)

Since Lincoln's time, with the help of General McClellan's
private secret service under Alan Pinkerton, disinformation
of presidents in service to the private agendas of other
power bases and, sometimes, commercial interests has been
routine.  More recently, it was done to Roosevelt, Truman,
Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, and Reagan.  Bush's
roots speak for themselves.  Without turning this political
and coming off as the flaming radical which I am not, the
Eisenhower disinformation left a legacy which still lives,
and it all turns on a word, and a suitable beginning is
Iran.

Early in the McCarthy period, one did not challenge the use
of the word "communism" in expressing something to shoot at.
I know in the '50's, I didn't.  Given the Korean War,
Hungary, and all the rest, one could be very anti-communist
and be a flaming liberal in domestic affairs, all at the
same time.  That pretty well describes me, nobody could be
more pleased at the recent turns in world politics viz a viz
democratization than me.  That unequivocally said, when
Mossadegh tried to nationalize Iran's oil,('50's) Eisenhower
was persuaded this was communism in action, and the CIA got
its first shot at deposing heads of state.  We installed the
Shah and trained his secret police, the Sadak.  It gets
better...


[More]

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45954 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  08:24:35
Sb: #45953-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

This was soon followed by the news that Arbenz, the leftist
president of Guatemala, was going to nationalize the
agronomy.  The CIA went in and he was history.  Another
communist down the tubes.  Then along comes Castro to make a
deal with us - in which his nationalization of the United
Fruit Co. was the deal breaker that opened the Cuban door to
Russia.  At the time we were paying for sugar at a rate
determined by a 1903 treaty, and United Fruit had a total
monopoly.  Castro started in the Sierra Maestra of Oriente
province because the Fruit Co. owned *two thirds* of the
province outright, and he knew recruitment would be easy.
What the pop culture didn't know was that among the chief
attorneys, members of the board, a chairman of the board,
and the principal stockholders were John Foster Dulles (Sec.
of State), his brother Allen (head of CIA), Senator Henry
Cabot Lodge (whose father shot down the League of Nations),
Walter Bedell Smith, A couple of other Cabots and Lodges,
and three Latin American ambassadors, one of whom didn't
speak Spanish.  So it was never about ideology, it was about
money, and we bought military dictatorships to protect it.
This legacy, as well as the Iranian void left by the
inevitable revolt against the Shah, filled by the
fundamentalists, still lives.

So does the disinformation of Johnson about the Gulf of
Tonkin, etc.  It pervades us by the twisting of labels.
STAR Wars being really EARTH wars. Old hat.  The
Intelligence Agencies even disinform each other in their
turf wars.

Anyway, back to Wiltshire!

Bob


#: 45989 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  22:08:57
Sb: #45798-#Crop circles
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Hmmmmm.....  I just had a particularly bad idea....  Have
you heard about the mysterious deaths of technicians and
engineers in England in the past few years?  Could there be
a connection?  It's been suggested for a long time that
they're related to a MJ-12 sort of conspiracy, but maybe
they could be related to terrestrial defense research
instead.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45990 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   07-Oct-91  23:14:35
Sb: #45989-Crop circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335

I do know of the deaths.  I had not connected them with the
crop circles, and I think I still don't.  There was, or is,
a faltering attempt to connect each of the scientists to UFO
research, but I've not even seen a list of names of these
engineers and technicians.

If the deaths are related, the timing -- well before the
circles business had begun to escalate -- is off.  I also
believe that agents of the British or the U.S. government
would dispose of dangerous elements in some way that was
less conspicuous than leaving a corpse tied to a table at
the bottom of a lake.  Of course this makes me wonder if the
claim is true that all these deaths have been ruled
suicides...

This is one of those mysteries which, to me, doesn't fit in
with the CIRCLES hypothesis.  I'd love to see more facts,
however, for the business is talked about in rather a
mythologizing way; where it's only helpful if somebody hauls
out lists and tables and clippings.   It would be helpful,
in fact, to dispose of the deaths as a related phenomenon.
CIRCLES isn't going to be telling us what became of Charlie
Ross, and things only get confusing if we try to gather in
too much.  I had been reluctant to suggest Herstmonceaux,
but now I'm glad I did.  So if anyone knows enough to shoot
this down, or shore it up, tell
all.


#: 46006 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   08-Oct-91  17:33:00
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, your message #45833 suggested that the two men who
confessed to the crop circle hoax acted in a manner
afterwards that suggested they were perhaps the unwitting
dupes of the DoD.  If true it would suggest a remarkable
dichotomy in the level of sophistication between the
technical end of the project and the disinformation campaign
intended to keep it secret.  The enlistment of those two
bumpkins by some shady arm of the intelligence community
reflects a level of amateurish clumsiness that makes one
wonder how the project could possibly have remained secret
this long.  It seems totally out of character with the level
of sophistication that this thread has assumed is at work.

In the same message you comment on the USDoD recent release
of info relative to ground-to-air laser focussing systems.
Your comment suggests such releases of info is unusual.  I
don't know what specific info you are referring to, but as a
long-term subscriber to Aviation Week, I see new SDI
articles on a weekly basis.  That's not why I subscribe so I
generally don't read those particular articles in detail
but, on a weekly basis, they are reporting on particle beam
technology, space-based lasers, railgun technology, etc. So,
my question is this: what specific news has *recently* come
out of the defense establishment that adds something new to
the debate about crop circles?


#: 46007 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   08-Oct-91  17:33:10
Sb: CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Any historical precedent?

You cite 2 historical precedents for the existence of large-
scale disinformation campaigns sponsored by the defense
community. Even making the large assumption that they exist
as you believe them to, they are fairly small-scale and
narrowly focused productions in comparison to what this
thread is postulating.  They were (are?) essentially little
more than passive "stonewalling" tactics to hide either a
mistake (fallout) or a politically embarrasing breach of
international protocol(Cambodia). Neither would seem to
provide strong evidence that the necessary mindset exists to
conceive and execute a disinformation campaign of the scale
that this thread addresses.


#: 46008 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   08-Oct-91  17:33:30
Sb: #CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

To catch up on several points in your recent postings:
There are some aspects to the geosynchronous satellite
discussion that seem to me to require further refinement.

Firstly, such satellites would be a poor selection as a
weapons testing platform for any program that wants to
remain secret.  Their deployment is eminently trackable if
only because of the long rocket firing necessary to get them
to the extremely high altitude necessary for a
geosynchronous orbit.  I find the concept of a "stealthy"
geosynchronous satellite to be fairly remote. So, it's
ability to sit over UK for years and remain undiscovered
while performing nightly test firings just seems a little
farfetched. (No one has yet mentioned the necessity for the
"beams" to contain large amounts of energy but emit almost
no visible light!)

Secondly, the issue of what happens when the crop circle
"season" ends has not been adequately addressed. You
speculated that a multitude of geosynchronous satellites are
in orbit.  Why put up more than one (much less establish a
network) if it does no more than replicate the same testing
over a different area? Geosynchronous satellites are
incredibly expensive due to the expense associated with
getting them into a 25,000 mile orbit. Putting up more than
one simply to perpetuate a disinformation campaign is a
stretch.  Only a second generation testbed could possibly
justify that expense, and there is no evidence yet discussed
of any large breakthroughs in what these presumed satellites
are capable of doing.  Why select a location (Wiltshire)
which provides only a seasonal testing ground?  The marginal
maneuverability of a geosynchronous satellite precludes any
serious likelihood that the one speculated to be over
Britain could be rapidly moved into place over Australia or
Japan.  We have great fuel limitations in

[continued in the reply]

There is 1 Reply.


#: 46009 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   08-Oct-91  17:33:47
Sb: #46008-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

[continued]
merely adjusting our current NOAA satellites to give proper
Atlantic Ocean coverage, let alone shifting them back and
forth on an intercontinental basis. Again, maybe 1991 will
be the year that the phenomena continues after the crop
season ends in Wiltshire.  But what explains the absence of
fall and winter activity in prior years?

Thirdly, Michael noted the spread of crop circles to Sweden,
Italy, et al.  Can you or Michael please reference the
source of this info.  My ENS clipping folders haven't picked
up any such stories nor are any stories found in an online
search of UK newspapers as late as this afternoon.

Fourthly, your ruminations on the subject of cold war
disinformation campaigns are food for thought but they
address the crop circle phenomena in a tangential manner at
best. The interpretation of recent geopolitical events is a
topic on which you will never achieve any meaningful
consensus. (Spend some time in the Issues forum if you want
daily evidence of that!) Hence, butressing your crop
circle/SDI theory through their utilization probably does
more to muddy the water than clarify.  It also provides
opportunities for readers who disagree with your perceived
political bent to question the credibility of all your prior
postings. Both you and Michael have referred to past
disinformation campaigns and those comments have been
informative. But neither of you has mentioned any campaign
focused solely on a weapons development issue that is a true
analog to the subject of this thread.

Sorry to be so long-winded here. Once I got going more and
more questions came
to mind.

PS:  I may be misinformed (certainly wouldn't be the first
time), but I don't think Hubble is geosynchronous.


#: 46020 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   08-Oct-91  22:04:57
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576

I remeber noting one example of weapons system
disinformation, the Manhattan Project, but that was
dismissed as being out of date.  In fact it's not.  I have
an extensive collection of antique newspapers, starting with
the war between Charley Two and Cromwell in 1642, and on
through the 1980's, an a lot of stuff from WWII.  Many
weapons system that took years to develop weren't known of
until they'd been successfully tested.  Likewise nuclear
subs, missiles we still haven't been told exist, it goes on
and on.

If I could give you a more recent campaign of this magnitude
(which the others are not) I'd be on "60 Minutes" and not
here.  You're asking for data I have no way of having.  I
too read Aviation Week, and it also disinforms on occasion.
That's how they get away with printing the classified stuff
they do. One hand feeds the other.  There's other stuff to
read, too.  As to the other events for which you requested
documentation, I carefully put in quotes the statement, (I
hope, and if I didn't please insert them) that it was a
response from an English correspondent.  I included them
because I had seen the same places mentioned (on a smaller
scale) in the foreign press, and discussed on short wave
commercial radio from other parts of the world, to which I
listen regularly.  Crop circles are a global item.

The other point you addressed was the "visibility" of high
energy beams at night.  Too many meteorological variables
keep this from being arguable - not to mention Tom
Genereaux's mention of other energy forms than optical or
microwave which might be involved.  I wish I knew..

Bob


#: 46021 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   08-Oct-91  22:38:31
Sb: #45990-Crop circles
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

I haven't seen a list of names either, but there's
supposedly one at the back of Sydney Sheldon's new novel
"The Doomsday Conspiracy", which just happens to be about
silencing the witnesses to a UFO crash.  (It seems Sheldon
is cashing in on the UFO craze.  Except for the list of
names, though, I don't think it's an attempt at "fiction
based on the truth" like STrieber's "Roswell" and the very
controversial books by W. A. Harbinson.  For one thing, the
crash takes place in Switzerland (never heard of one there)
and for another, the aliens are benevolent.)


#: 46028 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   09-Oct-91  05:09:22
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

HST's orbit is nowhere near geosyncronous (mean altitude
~600 km, period 97 minutes).

 -fjh


#: 46033 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   09-Oct-91  07:53:56
Sb: #46028-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72

Thanks for the information, Frank.  It corrects a general
misconception held here about its whereabouts.  Would you
happen to know if that was its originally intended
operational orbit, or a holding orbit pending the scheduled
1993 repair mission? Would you also happen to know how its
stabilized on a celestial target, given that 97 minute
period?  I'd be very grateful for any information you might
have about it.  The people at JPL gave the impression that
it was quite maneuverable, and they originally wanted it
higher than that.

Bob


#: 92349 S14/News/Current Events
   12-Oct-91  01:02:09
Sb: #92338-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, I thought you and Sheldon Cohen might enjoy the
following update, extracted from a CIS letter I received
last night.  The correspondent is a resident of Wiltshire,
the site of the most publicized sitings, and is actively
engaged in the research.

It refers to a crop event near Barbury Castle, in August of
this year, one of the most spectacular to date.

      "... The farmer in whose field it formed in the
second week of August has offered a reward of twenty
thousand pounds to anyone who can replicate it, the downside
is that if you cannot you pay him ten thousand pounds for
damage to his wheat field; so far there have been no takers.
The two characters, Doug & Dave, who claimed to be the
authors of all the formations have not taken up this offer
and are now being prosecuted by the farmers Union for damage
to crops much to everyone's amusement !"

I guess Time Magazine missed something...

Bob


#: 46142 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   11-Oct-91  17:56:34
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob, glad to see your posting in the Astronomy forum.  Maybe
we'll get some contributions from folks with the technical
expertise to address some of the issues that have been
raised.  Reason I was browsing in that forum was that I had
earlier requested their expertise regarding the possibility
of recovering GS satellites. I posted a question asking
anyone if they were aware of a GS satellite ever being
recovered after insertion into GS orbit. Response follows:


Message: #92245, S/3  Satellite Observing
Date:    Thu, Oct 10, 1991 4:57:09 AM
Subject: #92199-GS satellites
From:    Tony Beresford 72726,3245
To:      Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (deletable)


No Eric, nobody has the OOMPH to send a manned capsule into
Clarke orbit. Certainly not the US. And although the CIA and
NSA people dont always speak up about what they know the
russians are doing , I think launching Soyuz capsules to
geostationary orbit with Energia would be obvious anyway.

Bob, I haven't forgotten your last message.  Am still
mulling it over.

-Erik-


#: 92264 S3/Satellite Observing
   10-Oct-91  15:47:56
Sb: #92245-GS satellites
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 (X)

Tony, you confirmed what I already suspected.  Thanks!


#: 92351 S3/Satellite Observing
   12-Oct-91  02:02:51
Sb: #92264-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, I'm pleased the discussion has departed the E.T.
section of SPACE and finally found it's way here.  There is
also discussion on ASTRO/News/ Current Events.

When I suggested the possibility of geosynchronous satellite
(GS) retrieval, I never envisioned sending the Shuttle into
Clarke orbit, but rather bringing the GS down.  I understand
from an unclassified source at JPL that this is possible.  I
hope Tony Beresford or someone who believes differently will
comment.

Since geosynchronicity is a matching of GS period to the
rotation of the earth - this being altitude dependent - the
scenario with which I was presented involved "goosing" the
GS downward into a controllable decaying orbit, and
rendezvousing a Shuttle with it at a lower altitude - on the
order of 600-800 km.  I'm informed that Hubble is at 600
km., 97 min. period, for just that purpose.

Payload accommodation for fuel, thrusters, and control
systems might be considerable to enable recoverability, but
as I understand it this capability (or its development) is
part of the program and has been for some time.  If it's
been done, nobody's talking.

Corrections are welcome.  This isn't about being right, but
rather finding out what is.

Bob


#: 92355 S3/Satellite Observing
   12-Oct-91  06:31:40
Sb: #92348-GS satellites
Fm: John McDonnell 73437,3202
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

It is certainly possible to build-in retrieval capability
for a GEO satellite; there simply isn't generally a need.
For example, a geosynchronous communications satellite which
has worn out generally isn't worth fixing anyway (i.e. not
worth the cost, loss of payload,  etc.)


#: 92374 S3/Satellite Observing
   12-Oct-91  21:39:13
Sb: #92348-GS satellites
Fm: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

I rather think the required payload of rocket would reduce
useful payload to a very small amount. Consider that the
scenario you are suggesting is equivalent to the velocity
increment given by the third stage and the circularising
burn to get to Clarke Orbit. An ion motor solution seems
most reasonable but there are no flight ready electric
propulsion systems in use.


#: 92386 S3/Satellite Observing
   13-Oct-91  00:52:27
Sb: #92355-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: John McDonnell 73437,3202

Thanks for the response, John.  The origin of the inquiry
related to the thread concerning a "special circumstance"
scenario.  This is laid out in the CIRCLE.TXT thread, which
speculates (among other things) that the "crop events" in
Wiltshire, England, and elsewhere, are (among other things)
the artifacts of preliminary SDI experiments employing
laser/maser/other technology originating in GEO satellites
over the affected sites.  As opposed to a comsat, landsat,
navigational device, or weather satellite, a need for
retrievability and redeployment can be envisioned.

Answer we needed was whether it could be done at all.  If it
is SDI under a brilliant cover (the obfuscating nature of
the site), and under an inverted title (Earth as opposed to
Star), many puzzles fall into place.  Also, budget becomes
unlimited, and the only remaining question on the particular
point becomes conceivability of the concept of GEO access.

Thanks again.

Bob


#: 46157 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   12-Oct-91  00:25:06
Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Thanks for redirecting me, Erik.  It's much appreciated.  I
responded to your exchange with Tony Beresford over on
ASTRO/SATTELITE OBSERVING. I'm grateful to you for the
referral.  For thread readers here, those are the places to
look for continued activity.

So as not to leave anyone hanging, my query about retrieving
GS's was in the context of goosing the GS down to a lower
orbit, not sending the Shuttle up to get it.

See you on ASTRO.

Bob


#: 46158 S7/Extraterrestrials?
   12-Oct-91  00:25:11
Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Almost forgot... re that last message you're mulling over,
I'll look for a response here, or the thread might get
scattered all over the place.  Thanks again for keeping me
current as to where the action is.

Bob


#: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing
   18-Oct-91  19:15:30
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past
week.  Talk about a conspiracy!

Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as
possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television
network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO
Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles.
Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly
related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial
photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations.  I'm not
sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the
juices running!  Seldom does an unexplained phenomena
display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me
out" manner.

The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the
possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives
me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely
explanation.  Why look for extraterrestrial explanations
when much more prosaic explanations remain to be
investigated?  I confess that I remain highly skeptical that
GS satellites are involved.  Also, some aspects of the
alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed
strike me as fairly remote.   However, your prior comment
that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to
sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most
insightful observation yet made regarding their possible
origin.

The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were
showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere.  Sure wish I
could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims.  The
spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of
the globe would be a fascinating development.


#: 92262 S14/News/Current Events
   10-Oct-91  11:54:20
Sb: #92250-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

According to Time magazine a week or two ago, the crop
circles were created by two British hoaxsters who finally
came forward.  Their biggest problem weas that for a long
time no one noticed their circles.


#: 92305 S14/News/Current Events
   11-Oct-91  06:40:56
Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327

Sheldon, there's little doubt that some of the "crop events"
are the product of hoaxers.  To look at quality photographs
of the simultaneous events in the publications referenced in
circle.txt, consider the 11 year history of increasing
sophistication and size and simultanaeity of immense
formations, the hoaxers from last week's "Time" are history
even in Britain.  Over the past year 20/20 did two serious
pieces on these events, and Hugh Downs is one of the world's
great skeptics. I call them events because most of them are
far too full of linear componenents - some of them
connecting the circles, complete with mid line
perpendiculars and bisections, all aligned with the crop
furrows already in the fields - to be called "circles."

Many look more like target reticules projected through a
stencil, others are immense replicas of archeological
patterns already on site with a 5000 year old history.
Presuming a laser/maser/other coherent beam with a projected
diameter of a fraction of a centimeter, through a stencil, a
beam spread of the hundreds of yards which charactarize
these "cookie cutouts" is not inconsistent with an origin
from the 25000 mile altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter.

Hoaxers account for some, not all, and we're not about
UFO's, unless they're of human manufacture.  This is a very
real, underpubicized mystery which has been under study by
serious scientists for years. Circle.txt referenced again in
the following, will be a surprise to many.


#: 92338 S14/News/Current Events
   11-Oct-91  20:21:01
Sb: #92262-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X)

They have been unable to reproduce their work by daylight,
however, and with witnesses.  They were sponsored by a "news
agency" which does not have a telephone, its only address is
c/o an up-scale accounting firm, and it has apparently no
other clients and no other stories.  This is covered in the
CIRCLE.TXT, to some extent.  The incidence of crop circles
would have required these two men, in their sixties, to
create two or three circles a night every night for the
entire length of the English growing season.  When they were
asked, on English television, if they had ever been employed
by any intelligence agency, they laughed, but did not give a
precise reply.

Most of the above is circumstantial.  Their complete
inability to reproduce even a single simple circle under
conditions that were far more favorable (light, no need for
silence, or the obliteration of all footprints) than those
under which they claimed to have succeeded so frequently, is
what kills this particular hope for this simple, and un-
sinister solution.

(I should make it clear that I am a participant in the
thread that made up CIRCLE.TXT, but I have been a member of
this forum for almost a year now, and log in every day --
that is, I'm not appearing here for the sole purpose of
defending and promoting a pet theory.  In fact, I log on
every day in hope of finding a dozen messages hammering on
the issue of cosmological redshifts.  I can hardly wait till
I can read an article in Nature, or in Science News, or
anywhere else for that matter, that doesn't automatically
assume that redshift = distance and distance alone.)


#: 92387 S3/Satellite Observing
   13-Oct-91  00:52:37
Sb: #92374-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245

Thanks for the informative response, Tony.  At least it's
theoretically possible.  As you may have noted in priors,
the question concerns hypothetical SDI experiments addressed
in CIRCLE.TXT and its subsequent thread, and some of the
English "crop events" being artifacts of same.

Presuming unlimited budget, a small nuclear propulsion unit
employing high thrust, impulse thrusters using superheated
gasses, and the purely speculative idea that more than one
Shuttle payload might be joined before deployment to
Clarkesville, does it then become a rational element of the
dialogue - especially presuming NSA top secret development
over a ten or eleven year period.

The "crop events" began as primitive circles around the time
the high frequency super secret Shuttle missions began, and
have been growing in sophistication ever since.  That's the
genesis of this inquiry,

One last brain-pick... do you or someone else know the
unclassified version of the size/weight of a current Shuttle
payload?

Again, thanks for the information.

Bob


#: 92388 S3/Satellite Observing
   13-Oct-91  08:20:02
Sb: #92374-GS satellites
Fm: Allen Thomson 72757,1325
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245

>no flight ready electric propulsion systems in use

Minor correction: the FUSSR and the now-defunct USSR have
used plasma thrusters on a variety of GEO and LEO satellites
for many years. Coupled to a nuclear power source, scaled-up
versions of these engines could perform the orbit-changing
maneuvers being discussed here.


#: 92427 S3/Satellite Observing
   14-Oct-91  08:03:58
Sb: #92422-#GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245

Tony, a belief is developing that the "novel plot" is indeed
the reason that so much classified money is poured into SDI,
with more to come (thanks to progress in disarmament talks)
for eleven years, and speculation as to some of the payloads
of super-secret Shuttle flights. This thread began with the
upload on Sept. 22 of CIRCLE.TXT (with klutzy file
description due to Tapcis inexperience) to the
ISSUES/PARANORMAL Library 10, for want of a better place to
put it.  A thread started on SPACE/EXTRATERRESTRIALS around
Msg. # 45328.  I fervently hope that both will be read, as
we have finally attained neo-respectability by our presence
here, which is where we wanted to be in the first place.

Since CIRCLE.TXT is a thread from the "Science & Health"
forum of the (members only Writers' Guild of America (WGA),
West, Inc., Los Angeles, dealing with the Wiltshire "crop
events," proposing that some of them are artifacts of GS
borne SDI experiments in maser/laser/other EARTH directed
technology.

I realize that as professional writers, we would
understandably be perceived as developing "novel" plots.
This is not the case, here.  Writers may have well-exercized
pattern-recognition skills, but the scenario this thread
produced has not been discussed elsewhere, and we sincerely
wanted it introduced into the international discussion.
Before I was writing "Star Trek: Both Generations,"
"Bonanza,"  "Marcus Welby, M.D.," "The Equalizer," and some
movies, I was a Dept. Editor in a then RAND division.  My
late father was a Senior Scientist on Surveyor, at Hughes,
and the arduous process of getting on the Astronomy Forum
involved no E.T.'s or metaphysics.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 92428 S3/Satellite Observing
   14-Oct-91  08:04:10
Sb: #92427-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

The thread already available in CIRCLE.TXT and the
SPACE/E.T.'s messages have brought the reasoning as to how,
by whom, why there, what for, hoaxes or not, etc. to a point
of evolution that I think will come as a surprise to many,
here, who are willing to suspend disbelief long enough to
read the material already on CIS, and, if interested, do
everything in their power to shoot down its dominant theory.

CIRCLE.TXT represents only the views of the participants,
and not its host forum or the WGA.  It was uploaded with
consent of all participants.  Even the skeptics thought it
deserved discussion.

If we were fictioneering, we wouldn't be trying so hard to
attract the discussion of the the truly knowledgeable people
that we would expect to frequent this forum.  From some of
the messages on /SPACE/E.T., I suspect some did participate,
feeling their professional credentials were safe.

I'm very grateful to you and the others who have been
willing to take us seriously enough to answer our questions
and correct our lay misconceptions. I truly hope the
material already posted and uploaded is examined, and the
"novel plot" continues to be brainstormed.

Bob


#: 92429 S3/Satellite Observing
   14-Oct-91  08:04:25
Sb: #92423-#GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245

Allen, I hope you managed to read my priors to Tony
Beresford.  I'm pretty knowledgable in the workings of the
National Security Act, and though the prior development of
this thread as cited there, and elsewhere, is informed
speculation based on unclassified sources, I know that some
of you are professionals and working under clearances.  For
the record, none of the participants in the CIS thread(s)
except Michael McDowell, who I know well, have ever met
anywhere but here.

Your message to Allen Thompson presumes that what the US has
flown is known. It also presumes that the Russians aren't
aware of it, and that it might not be an international co-
venture, (perhaps Anglo/American), which is developing
coherent beam technology (maser, laser, other) as the
military equalizer of the 21st century.  It would portent a
rationale for some recent geopilitical developments, and
promise a control over Third World nuclear proliferation, so
calling it a Manhattan Project of the 21st century isn't
necessararily a doomsday paranoia.  The same security
methods might apply.

The super-secret Shuttle missions begin around the time of
the first "crop circle" events in Wiltshire, England, where
I understand is also located the Royal Greenwich
Observatory's orbital tracking and earth-rotation
measurement facility for a number of years, now.  My working
premise is that *some* of the "crop events" are artifacts of
tests originating in GS(s) over the site.  Most are within a
100 mile radius of Stonehenge, and have progressed in
sophistication over the period of the secret Shuttle
flights. Placing the images in an area with a 5000 year
archaeological and metaphysical history would be a brilliant
cover.  "It's an old story...", making the rules of
evidence unmaginable.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 92430 S3/Satellite Observing
   14-Oct-91  08:04:38
Sb: #92429-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

Hardly anyone has closely examined the high quality
photographs currently in print, because they have been
relegated to the occult book shelves.  That something
extraordinary is happening, as opposed to paranormal, seems
unarguable.  Lately, the density and grographic range of the
events has been spreading - 30 in Japan in the past few
months.

To let Tony off the hook of suggesting a coverup, I'll be
happy to make the suggestion.  It won't be the first.
During the '70's my late father (then working on Voyager),
got me an insider's tour of the Hughes research facility in
Malibu.  It was from the beginning a laser-dedicated
facility, ostensibly developing VERY long range collimation
for the purpose of earth-movement detection, hopefully
toward the devolopmnent of earthquake prediction systems.
Howard Hughes' earthquake phobia was getting a lot of press,
too.  Given the sophistication of what I saw, and the length
of time since I saw it - and given the added development of
relatively high temperature superconductors (particularly
magnetic applications) - and the favorable ambient
conditions of space for maser efficiency - I can't begin to
imagine the degree of development that's been achieved.

If you're willing to read CIRCLE.TXT and the abovementioned
thread, you'll find a number of references and citations
regarding long ongoing research in plasma physics - some of
it suggestive of the potential for electrical propulsion,
the lack of which you concede has intrigued you.  I hope the
brainstorm will continue.

Bob


#: 92457 S3/Satellite Observing
   14-Oct-91  16:58:09
Sb: #92423-GS satellites
Fm: Allen Thomson 72757,1325
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245

Well, we did fly one reactor (SNAP-10, I think it was), but
it wasn't very big. As to why we never fully developed high-
isp propulsion systems--dunno, but it seems to be a
combination of lack of perceived need, budget, and the
technological conservatism that set in after the 1960s.
Sigh.



#: 92533 S3/Satellite Observing
   15-Oct-91  21:10:05
Sb: #92422-GS satellites
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245

I very much respect the professionals and the professional
attitudes found on this forum, and I'm glad that Bob
Sabaroff has so carefully explained our intentions and our
hopes for the Crop Circle thread.   As I was very proud to
have been a minor part of the discussions here of Arp and
the cosmological red-shift discussion, I was glad to be able
to contribute somewhat more to the Crop Circle discussion.

Although I'm a writer (over 30 novels published, the film
BEETLEJUICE,  other films, television as well, and a
doctorate in English), I do have a little background for the
discussion.  I was an NSF mathematics scholar back in the
days of the CDC 6400, and for six years I worked at the MIT
National Magnet Laboratory.  I was secretary for the group
working on Lasers of all sorts,  far-infrared, sub-
millimetre,  super-conducting, GaAs, and the like.   And I
have a memory for irrelevancies -- such as the fact that
Herstmonceaux Castle had recently been put up for sale.

You will find on the thread more and more acerbic skeptics
than have yet shown up on CompuServe.  And you will find the
Astronomy forum quoted for information (on the disposition
of the Castle mentioned above) that I knew to come here for.
But what can't be stressed enough is that the Circle.Txt was
uploaded as a target for your best shots.  Show us where the
reasoning is off, the facts wrong.  We have no interest at
all of convincing you of anything.  We have every interest
in getting at the truth of the subject.



#: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing
   18-Oct-91  19:15:30
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past
week.  Talk about a conspiracy!

Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as
possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television
network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO
Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles.
Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly
related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial
photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations.  I'm not
sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the
juices running!  Seldom does an unexplained phenomena
display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me
out" manner.

The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the
possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives
me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely
explanation.  Why look for extraterrestrial explanations
when much more prosaic explanations remain to be
investigated?  I confess that I remain highly skeptical that
GS satellites are involved.  Also, some aspects of the
alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed
strike me as fairly remote.   However, your prior comment
that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to
sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most
insightful observation yet made regarding their possible
origin.

The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were
showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere.  Sure wish I
could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims.  The
spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of
the globe would be a fascinating development.


#: 92582 S14/News/Current Events
   17-Oct-91  12:19:54
Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Stuart Lees 75300,247
To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X)

<Their biggest problem weas that for a long time no one
noticed their circles.>

The local TV station in the West of England (includes
Wiltshire) has been giving coverage to the circles for
years. If no one noticed the hoaxers' circles it can only
have been because there were many more intricate circle
patterns to take note of elsewhere.

-Stuart (Bristol, England)

There is 1 Reply.


#: 92624 S14/News/Current Events
   18-Oct-91  01:04:31
Sb: #92582-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327
To: Stuart Lees 75300,247 (X)

Well, I was going by what Time Magazine said.  So if I was
wrong, actually I wasn't wrong--Time was.


#: 92666 S3/Satellite Observing
   18-Oct-91  23:01:18
Sb: #92651-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Would you believe that even as I type, my trusty VCR is
taping the very TV show referred to.  It's 9:28 P.M. in L.A.
and Fox is airing it from 9 - 10. From your comments, I'm
looking forward to viewing it at leisure when I log off.
(actually, I'm in Tapcis... technicalities technicalities).

There is some media confirmation involving at least the
Japanese circles. They appeared in rice paddies, and film of
them was shown on CNN's International News Hour, which airs
here around midnight. There was no mistaking them.  Same
format.

I recall that your inquiry here about the possibility of
retrieving GEO's, and the thread eventially came around to a
concession that it was theoretically possible - and that
satellites could be linked before deployment, to increase
the payload to include maneuvering systems - and could upon
recovery be refueled and redeployed, I arrive at the
scenario that seems most possible.

I cling to GEO's because the precision of the alignments and
the sharpness of their outlines suggest a very stable and
stationary point of origin.  The possibility of substantial
maneuvering payload means that considerable resources could
be utilized to establish the aligned spin necessary to
provide gyroscopic stability and make necessary corrections
for precession. A moving source, whether a spy plane or non-
GEO satellite would be taking great risks of malfunction or
imprecission, and would be very detectable. It also seems
convenient that the Royal Observatory's orbital tracking and
earth rotation measurement facility is in the affected area.

Bob


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