F I D O N E W S -- Vol.12 No.26 (26-Jun-1995)

F I D O N E W S -- Vol.12 No.26 (26-Jun-1995)
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| A newsletter of the | ISSN 1198-4589 Published by: |
| FidoNet BBS community | "FidoNews" BBS |
| _ | +1-519-570-4176 |
| / \ | |
| /|oo \ | |
| (_| /_) | |
| _`@/_ \ _ | |
| | | \ \\ | Editors: |
| | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 |
| |__U__| / \// | Sylvia 1:221/194 |
| _//|| _\ / | |
| (_/(_|(____/ | |
| (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. |
| | -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Submission address: editors 1:1/23 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| MORE addresses: |
| |
| submissions=> [email protected] |
| Don -- [email protected] |
| Sylvia [email protected] |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| For information, copyrights, article submissions, |
| obtaining copies of fidonews or the internet gateway faq |
| please refer to the end of this file. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
========================================================================
Table of Contents
========================================================================

1. Editorial..................................................... 2
2. Articles...................................................... 2
Subject: The times, they are not changing at all, apparently 3
A QUICK RESPONSE TO THE ARTICLE OF IGNORANCE WRITTEN BY BOB 5
Subject: Russian objects to atheism in snooze <bleh>........ 11
Subject: A Response to Bob Germer........................... 12
Subject: Legalities of FidoNet.............................. 13
Subject: What the hell is going on here?.................... 14
As always, I was and remain utterly correct................. 16
Subject: Threats & germer................................... 17
DEF CON III Convention Update #1.80 (06.20.95).............. 22
Connecticut Harassment law/what next?....................... 28
Subject: Libel.............................................. 29
Subject: Reply to Germer.................................... 30
3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 31
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 2 26 Jun 1995

========================================================================
Editorial
========================================================================
We have a large issue this week, with just about every
article about lawsuits. How boring. Several of them suggest
that anyone who sues within Fidonet should be given the quick
heave, a position that I cannot agree with.

Although we were have been threatened with suits twice now, I
cannot really say that either threat worried me much. Normally,
I would just print the threat, the same as any other letter "to
the editor". The one, however, threatened a second suit if I
made the first threat public<I am still laughing over that one>.
I took that to mean the writer did not mean it for publication.

Back to the topic, though.

Lawsuits are between people. Individuals. The fact that one
of the people is in Fidonet is quite irrelevant. Each one of us
is responsible for controling ourselves, and if we cannot
refrain from getting into mud-slinging matches by mail, then we
should be willing to take the flack. Expecting the "fidogods"
to overrule the courts of the particular country we live in is
rather stupid. In Canada, it would probably gain one a contempt
of court charge, and rightfully so.

Over and over again I hear calls for exactly that. Kick out
the offender. Invariably the calls are from a third party that
claims to be acting to protect our freedom to belong to the net.
I don't get it. Ignoring people is much simpler.

hello! this is me. i wish i hadn't ever offended anyone
ever, but, ... at least im not a homoganized glob and neither
are you. i was actually playing with the notion of beginning to
"edit" for real, and now i wish my pure virgin mind which had
previously never imagined censoring anyone had never thought
that thought!; er, her i go censoring my self agin. sigh.

babblepseak: contempt of court being illegal is nonsensical. i
thought trials were for trying ideas. wierd.
========================================================================
Articles
========================================================================
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 3 26 Jun 1995

From: Tom Jennings <[email protected]>
To: Dallas Hinton <[email protected]>
Subject: The times, they are not changing at all, apparently.

Sigh.

> The RC council and the Z1C have been discussing the current state
> of FidoNet. We are not happy. The standard of behaviour of some
> of those in FidoNet is simply not acceptable.
..
> The clean up process has already begun. Some *Cs have been
> abusing their position by attempting to exercise imaginary powers
> within FidoNet. They have already been replaced and there will be
> more removed unless those problem *Cs wake up very quickly.

I'll believe you are all sincere when you delete yourself when your
moral purge is done.

> Someone is bound to scream about "power mongers" and "control
> freaks". Any *C who actually IS a control freak will be removed.

What do you call what you are doing?

> ... news of another *C resigning because someone
> threatened to file a lawsuit if their echo wasn't getting enough
> attention. That sort of nonsense is going to stop. Now.

The emotional tone is patriotic and rousing, but likely impractical,
as I believe it's this sort of chest-pounding that is the root
cause. Besides, you'll probably find that trying to restrict people
from their legal rights -- no matter how distateful or misdirected
they are (yes, I've heard the horrors) -- will simply backfire on
you.

> In addition, any NC who is charging ANYTHING for issuing a node
> number in FidoNet had better stop doing so. If I find out about
> it, that NC will be removed as fast as I can type. FidoNet is now,
> always has been, and always will be free in the spirit that Tom
> Jennings intended.

This I agree with 101%. This doesn't lend authority to the moral-purge
though.

> Policy 4 states (section 9.1), "Thou shalt not excessively annoy others".

It also states, "thou shalt not be easily annoyed." This is actually
more important than the first, oft-repeated one.

flame {
"Thou shalt not be easily annoyed."
}

> Effective immediately, "excessively annoying" will include (on
> the first offence): threats (against life, limb, employment, etc),
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 4 26 Jun 1995

> abusive behaviour, and legal action or threats of legal action
> regarding FidoNet matters. This is not an exhaustive list. If
> someone manages to find a new way of being excessively annoying,
> the *C chain will deal with them appropriately.

Personally, I find very many of the /0's vastly, excessively,
annoying, but I also think it is my (our) responsibility to FidoNet
to refuse to become excessively annoyed. I wish others, especially
the /0's, would do this.

The self-appointed can do anything they like in FidoNet, as long
as they keep in mind that the single criteria for being in the
FidoNet Nodelist are technical. It is not restricted to anyone
based upon behavior, personal history, legal status, how much you
like them, etc. Even /0's are welcome.

The troubles in the US FidoNet truly mirror the times, with partisan
moral purges, chest-pounding, threats, back-stabbing, etc. Istead
of worrying about the state of others houses, or worse, the inside
of their heads, they did the same for themselves, it would be much
better.

I assume this is the list of co-conspirators. You might want to forward
them a copy, for completeness.

Randy Morgan (1:134/0)
David Hays (1:138/0)
Ken Read (1:140/0)
Russ Johnson (1:152/0)
Tony Bearman (1:153/0)
Alex Stuart (1:340/0)
Tom Hall (1:342/0)
Bob Jones (1:343/0)
Larry Juker (1:344/0)
Susan Waters (1:346/0)
Bill Parrott (1:347/0)
Russ Crook (1:348/0)
Steve Lea (1:349/0)
Adolph Weidanz (1:350/0)
Herb Addison (1:351/0)
Rick Castle (1:352/0)
Mauro Incrocci (1:353/0)
Peter Stern (1:355/0)
Les Lemke (1:356/0)
Khile Klock (1:357/0)
Laz Gottli (1:358/0)
Roy DaCosta (1:359/0)
David Anderson (1:3400/0)
Wayne Gay (1:3401/0)
Bruce Anderson (1:3402/0)
Rob Jacobsen (1:3403/0)
Rusty Stevens (1:3404/0)
Patrick Jensen (1:3405/0)
Carey Starzinger (1:3406/0)
Vic Parrish (1:3407/0)
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 5 26 Jun 1995

John Lewin (1:3408/0)
Steven Horn (1:3409/0)
Dan Williamson (1:3410/0)
Ada Willis (1:3411/0)
Ralf Schulze (1:3412/0)
Cameron Craig (1:3413/0)
Alan Beck (1:3414/0)
Cal Baker (1:3415/0)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A QUICK RESPONSE TO THE ARTICLE OF IGNORANCE WRITTEN BY BOB GERMER
by Carl McCaskey
Fidonet -- 1:3605/75 & 1:3605/316
Internet -- [email protected] & [email protected]

I read Bobby's article in the last issue of Fidonews and quite
frankly had a good laugh from it. Bobby's ignorance of what or
what does not constitute libel is quite revealing. In fact, the
overall impression one gets from reading his drivel is one of
paranoia and delusions of grandeur.

Anyway, I digress. I'll keep my responses to various portions of
his diatribe as brief and to the point as I can.

BG> Subject: Libelous Article In Fidonews

<*chuckle*> Let's look at what Bob considers "libelous" shall we?

BG> From: Bob Germer (8:950/10)

BG> Mr. Tees and Ms. Maxwell:

BG> An article appeared in the 6/6/95 issue of Fidonews which
BG> contains at least four absolute lies and which also refers
BG> to me as a fool.

Whether or not you're fool is debatable, but not libelous.

BG> Here are the specific lies contained in the article. The
BG> words from the Fidonews are preceeded by the initials FN
BG> for easy reference.

BG> FN> Lot's has happened this week... A particular sysop who
BG> FN> isn't even part of FIDO anymore, (he resigned in
BG> FN> disgrace).... has

BG> I did not resign in disgrace. This is an absolute lie and
BG> libelous.

All we have is one person's word against another's. If this is
the best rebuttal (weak) you can come up with, then it won't
convince any judge and/or jury.

BG> FN> made a living hell for the real sysops of FIDO. Who is
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 6 26 Jun 1995

BG> FN> this sysop you may ask? Bob Germer of Region 8. (I
BG> FN> believe this is family net).

BG> This is another lie. I am not and never was a member of
BG> anything called Family Net.

Mistakes of fact does not automatically constitute a lie. Try
again.

BG> FN> This week he threatened Mike Fuchs with a lawsuit
BG> FN> for allowing Z1_GERMER to be elisted, Mike Fuchs got
BG> FN> tired of putting up with shitheads like germinator
BG> FN> that are so cowardly

BG> I am not a shithead. This is a lie and libelous.

It is an _opinion_ and your charge of libel on this point
would not stand up in court.

BG> I am not a coward. As a decorated veteran, this is a most
BG> serious libel.

Again, this is a person's opinion and your charge of libel on
this point would not stand up in court.

BG> FN> The threats of lawsuits are uncalled for in FIDO...
BG> FN> The first scum to do it was winter (lowercase intentional),
BG> FN> now germinator. What has happened to FIDO? The *C structure
BG> FN> refuses

BG> I am not scum. This is a lie and libelous.

Once again it is _opinion_ and your charge of libel on this
point would also not stand up in court.

BG> FN> about lawsuits and other legal actions. Hell, Planet Connect
BG> FN> dumped germer's point status and is probably dumping his
BG> FN> entire service. Planet Connect should be commended on not
BG> FN> backing down from threats. While not everyone has the money
BG> FN> that PC has that

BG> This is another lie. Planet Connect is not "dumping his entire
BG> service". This is likewise libelous.

This charge of a lie is debatable since PC seems to have done just
as you denied. However, once again, your charge of libel here
would not stand up in court.

BG> FN> should not be a prerequisate(sic?) to backing down...
BG> FN> We should stand up to fools such as the germer's
BG> FN> and teh winter's and make

BG> I categorically state that I am not a fool. Unless one can
BG> prove I am a fool, one has libeled me.

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 7 26 Jun 1995

Incorrect, Mr. Germer, there is no libel. On the person's opinion
that you are a fool, your past actions, posts, etc. would
possibly substantiate such an accusation of you being a fool in
a court of law _IF_ (and I emphasize the word _IF_) the judge
didn't automatically dismiss the charge on the same grounds as
all of your previous frivolous and unfounded charges.

BG> One who protects his or her rights as I have done and as I
BG> will continue to do is not a fool; such a person is a wise
BG> and responsible citizen.

No, Mr. Germer, any person who routinely _abuses_ the American
judicial system with such frivolous and harassing suits as
you have been threatening of late is unwise and irresponsible.
The courts usually frown upon such trivial suits and tend to
rule in favor of countersuits against those who abuse the legal
system and waste the court's time, money and patience. I strongly
suggest you obtain the services of a _competent_ attorney who
specializes in libel and slander cases for it is obvious that
either:
a) your current attorney is feeding you bad legal advice (or
you haven't consulted with counsel concerning libel) or
b) you are deluding yourself in thinking you are competent in
the subject of libel/slander.
Either way, your points are quite weak and to pursue them in
a court of law would open you up to some serious countersuits
and possible judicial fines and penalties.

BG> FN> So basicly we need to impeach everyone & start from
BG> FN> scratch as well as make provisions to keep scum who
BG> FN> threaten lawsuits out of FIDO. Everyone has the right
BG> FN> to be an asshole and voice their opinions, but the
BG> FN> threats of frivolous lawsuits needs to be abolished.
BG> FN> Also anyone making multiple PC's that are constantly
BG> FN> rejected need to be ousted as well. Let's all make

BG> Again I am libeled by being called scum and further libeled
BG> again by being called an asshole.

Once again -- it wouldn't hold up in court.

BG> While one may categorize a suit to protect one's rights
BG> "frivolous", that does not make it so. Using the law to
BG> protect one's name and reputation when libelously attacked
BG> is not frivolous.

It is quite frivolous when one does not satisfy any of the legal
requirements of proving libel as you have failed to do. Unless
you can provide better evidence of where you have been adversely
affected by what has been said about you (once again I emphasize
this evidence must satisfy the legal standards for libel), your
charges of libel would most likely be summarily dismissed as
frivolous and trivial. On top of that, you would be more than
likely subject to subsequent fines and other penalties for
such violations. And to make matters worse, you would be subject
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 8 26 Jun 1995

for a possible countersuit on the grounds of harassment, loss of
salary, legal fees, etc.

BG> As Shakespeare (or at least I recall it being the
BG> Bard of Avon) had one of his characters say "He who steals
BG> my purse steals that which is worthless. He who steals my
BG> good name steals that which enriches him not but which
BG> empoverishes me absolutely."

Which is totally irrelevant in light of civil law.

BG> Under the laws of the United States, one cannot call others
BG> such names without facing sanctions.

I suggest you not try to pass yourself off as an authority on
legal matters concerning libel/slander for you have already
proven yourself to be quite ignorant.

BG> One cannot lie about another without placing the author
BG> him or herself in jeopardy of criminal and/or civil
BG> penalties.

Only if you are successful in proving all that needs to be met
to satisfy the legal standards of slander. So far you haven't.

BG> The right of free speech does is not absolute.

True. However, even calling someone names like "asshole",
"coward", etc. is still protected as a free speech issue.
Do the legal research instead of making such ignorant,
foolish and erroneous charges as you have done in your
diatribe.

BG> As Chief Justice John Marshall stated in one of the
BG> Supreme Court's earliest "landmark" decisions, "The
BG> right of free speech does not give one the right to
BG> yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theater."

And this quote is quite irrelevant to all your charges.
In short this standard of Justice Marshall's doesn't
apply _at all_ to your charges. Once again you show
your ignorance.

BG> Moreover, our laws protect ordinary citizens to a much
BG> greater degree than recognized public figures. Persons
BG> whose names, pictures, etc. are widely disseminated in
BG> the public press DUE TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS SUCH AS
BG> RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE, APPEARING IN MOVIES OR
BG> TELEVISION SHOWS, APPEARING REGULARLY ON THE RADIO, etc.
BG> must prove malice when bringing suit for libel.

Ordinary citizens must also prove a level of malice as well
as several of points, none of which you have done. Also,
if someone thinks that you are an asshole, a jerk, an idiot
or any number of derogatory names, it is still free speech
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 9 26 Jun 1995

(with the possible exceptions of where "fighting words" laws
are applicable, but even then, it is very hard to prove).

BG> Others do not have the burden to prove malice, they only need
BG> prove the statement untrue.

<*chuckle*> You know not of what you speak.

BG> And, in fact, the burden of proving the truth falls on
BG> the author and publisher of the lies.

<*chuckle*> Once again, you know not of what you speak.

BG> For example, newspapers have been found guilty of libel
BG> for stating that someone committed a crime for which the
BG> person was not convicted.

Please cite the case. [Also, this example is inapplicable to
your charges.]

BG> Newspapers have been held accountable for claiming a person
BG> was a member of one group or another when in fact that was
BG> not the case.

Please cite the case. [Also, this example is inapplicable to
your charges.]

BG> I don't know what the law is in Canada, but I am sure that
BG> spreading lies about someone is not a permissible action.

Well since none of your charges so far would hold up in a
U.S. court of law, most likely they would also fail in
Canada.

BG> I am also sure that the publisher of a newspaper,
BG> newsletter, etc. is not immune from suit for doing so.

Ah...a not-so-thinly-veiled threat. Pathetic.

BG> You have two options:

Actually three.

BG> 1. You can publish an apology in each of the next five
BG> issues and refrain from publishing anything which contains
BG> any untrue statement about me, contains any article which
BG> labels me a fool, scum, or any other derogatory term, etc.; or,

BG> 2. You can continue to publish articles which libel me and
BG> meet me in person in a court of competent jurisdiction.

or,
3. They can simply ignore you for it is obvious that you don't
have a legal leg to stand on.

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 10 26 Jun 1995

BG> Your expressed claim that you are not responsible because
BG> it is your practice to publish anything submitted is NOT a
BG> defense.

Since you don't have a case in the first place, the point is moot.

BG> In point of fact and law, it is an absolute admission of guilt.

You are clueless when it comes to point of fact and law. You have
shown your ignorance in your article.

BG> Mr. Tees not only expressed this verbally, I know I have read
BG> it in the Fidonews in times past. I have every issue since you
BG> took over and am sure I can produce it in court if necessary.

_IF_ it _ever_ got to court, which it most likely never will.

BG> A copy of this letter is being sent to Mr. Tees via Certified
BG> Mail, Return Receipt Requested. A copy will also be sent to
BG> the appropriate ministry in Canada when I find the proper
BG> name and address. I am unable at this time to send Ms. Maxwell
BG> a copy via Certified Mail because I do not have her address.

You do that. And hopefully those who receive your mail will place
same in the most appropriate file -- the trash can.

BG> As the author pointed out in one of the few factual statements
BG> made in the article, I am not a member of Fidonet.

Thank goodness for _small_ favors.

BG> I can be reached via the Internet at *********** or at
BG> ************* from **M Eastern prevailing time until **M the

[The *'s are placed for I feel that it's not worth it to dignify
Bob's pathetic whinings by reposting his addresses.]

BG> following day Eastern Prevailing Time Monday evening through
BG> and including Friday and from Friday **M Eastern Prevailing
BG> time until **M Eastern Prevailing Time Monday morning. On
BG> weekdays from **M until **M, again both are Eastern Prevailing
BG> Time, the same number can be used to send a facsimile
BG> transmission.

You're just not worth any more effort. Get a life, Bob, and get
a clue. I don't even know you and I have formed an opinion that
you're nothing but a whiny, abusive, petty little person (and I
use the word "person" very loosely here for I question your
existence as a homo sapiens) who is only happy when he can bully
and intimidate. You're to be pitied, Bob, but not taken seriously.

And with that, I bid you farewell,
Carl McCaskey
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 11 26 Jun 1995

Subject: Russian objects to atheism in snooze <bleh>
From: C I A (1:2623/71)

A Russian reader amazed by atheism in snooze
by Mikhail Ramendik, 2:5020/261.10,[email protected]

<snip>
>The 'last bite' that made me write this was an article 'from Michael
>Johnson' in No.5. The word 'f&^k' was actually used without special
>characters, not only preventing SysOps from reading the snoozie to
>their girlfriends, but openly insulting all the community!

Hrmm, well, *I* don't have a problem with the word FUCK, and I am a
woman. I don't know of too many mature adults offended by the word
FUCK, EXCEPT christian fundamentalists..

>Otherwise I'd answer all the atheistic nonsense, because we
>have heard it here from the Communist government for 75 years!
>Atheism is indeed the source of communism, and communism acknowledges
>this. So there is probably nothing the atheists can invent to attack
>Christianity that the Russians do not know very well. Oh, if only
>I had the feed...

I find that hard to believe. I always pictured communism as being a
RELIGION OF THE STATE rather then of a god. ya know, where the STATE
is the supreme being. An atheist accepts NOTHIN higher then ones
self - not state, not god, not nothin =)

>So I'd like to know - is FidoNet officially atheist-only? If not, is
>religious discussion in the snooze okay? If yes, I'll be answering the

I sure as hell HOPE NOT! We get enuf of the religious SPAM
everywhere all over every net! Lets keep it out of the snooze -

>atheists there. For we in Russia have seen the consequences of atheism.
>75 years of technical stagnation, millions of martyred people, and a
>world war - this is what we paid for atheism! And personally I do not
>want my fellow Fidonetters to pay the same price.

Don't blame athiesm (the ABSENCE of faith) for communisms problems -
Communism is a flawed ideology, which has its roots in CHRISTIAN
doctrine - not atheist!! Do atheists claim we are our brothers keeper?
Do atheists demand obedience to some "authority" above ones own
mind? Do atheists resort to force when an indivdual refuses to accept
their ideas?? Only those perpetrating FRAUDS do that, such as
christianity and communism...

" The alledged short cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short
circuit destroying the mind"
-Fellow (ex) Russian, Ayn Rand

CiA
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 12 26 Jun 1995

Subject: A Response to Bob Germer
From: Christopher Adams

Dear Mr. Germer,

You may have forgotten this, but Fidonet is just a hobby for most of
us who read the Fido News. Many people find your style offensive, and
would prefer not to hear from you again.

Your behavior in the REGION13 and NCRC13 echoes was offensive enough to
cause the moderator (the Region 13 Coordinator) to expel you from the
echoes. This does not seem to be the behavior of a calm, level headed
person - it appears to be the behavior of someone crying out for any
attention he can get.

I am offended by your threats to sue the editors of the Fido News
because they published something not to your liking. Won't you let
sleeping dogs lie? People don't want to hear from you - they want to
be left alone. Just because someone calls you a Shithead does not mean
that you are a Shithead. Can't you be man enough to ignore the idiots
and act like an adult?

You said:

"One who protects his or her rights as I have done and as I will
continue to do is not a fool; such a person is a wise and
responsible citizen."

But there is always a limit to how one should protect his/her rights.
Are you being caused financial harm because of this perceived libel?
No. Is your reputation (among your peers) being harmed because of
this difference of opinion? Probably not. So why don't you let this
issue die down and let people forget the ill words written about you?
This would seem to be the more socially acceptable and cost effective
way of dealing with the problem.

Later in your message, you said:

The right of free speech does is not absolute. As Chief Justice
John Marshall stated in one of the Supreme Court's earliest
"landmark" decisions, "The right of free speech does not give
one the right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theater."

I do not believe it was Justice Marshall who said that - it's more
akin to the phrasing of Justice Learned Hand. But we agree here.

You then noted:

Moreover, our laws protect ordinary citizens to a much greater
degree than recognized public figures. Persons whose names,
pictures, etc. are widely disseminated in the public press DUE
TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS SUCH AS RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE,
APPEARING IN MOVIES OR TELEVISION SHOWS, APPEARING REGULARLY ON
THE RADIO, etc. must prove malice when bringing suit for libel.
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 13 26 Jun 1995

However, you did put yourself into a semi public arena by being a
participant in public echomail conversations. You could have used
netmail for private replies. Instead you repeatedly used a public
arena for your earlier missives. And as such, I don't believe that
you are covered by the protection given ordinary private citizens.
(There are few legal precedents which govern free speech and libelous
free speech in cyberspace - is it worth the time and effort needed
to test your viewpoint?)

I, for one, would like to see this issue die. It may be in very
bad taste for others to name a flame echo after you, but it only
stokes the coals to threaten lawsuits at any minor excuse. Attacking
the "editors" of Fido News is a sure way of angering people who
never heard of you - and it makes you look bad for even bothering
with their insults. I'd prefer it if all mention of your name were
to cease in Fidonet, as I'm tired of old affairs and prefer to look
towards the future. You are no longer a sysop in Fidonet. Let
these people be - the problem will go away if you let it. Responding
with greater bad taste only makes you look bad - why bother stooping
to their level?

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Legalities of FidoNet
From: Wes Mills (1:124/2342.4)

Ok, for all of you out there who want to sue us in FidoNet, I'm
very sorry to do this, but, for lack of anything better to do, I
have been going over the U.S. civil and criminal lawsuit laws,
and I have this to say:

1) About the former ELIST: The list was maintained by Mike
Fuchs. Therefore, Mr. Fuchs has the right to put anything in
there he wants, or to remove anything he wants, ON A WHIM. It
is copyrighted by him, therefore, the contents, when submitted,
become his own. Other people merely accept the contents and
<perhaps> pass them on UNMODIFIED. And, this also means that no
one else can touch him. Take a look at books, which are
copyrighted under the same regulations as the former ELIST. You
can't sue the author to remove any inflamatory, vulgar, or
culturally unacceptable wording, words, or content. By the same
token, you CAN expect to have libelous, slanderous, and
defamatory language removed, and in a timely manner.

2) Let's see......About the FidoNews article in which Mr. Germer
made his comment on supposed slanderous comments directed toward
himself (FIDO1224). Umm, Mr. Germer: LIMITED RECOURSE. Ever
heard of the First Amendment? Means that comments can be made
about you, and you only have a limited recourse. You can expect
an apology be made, but only in ONE issue, albeit in a prominent
position. Also, ever heard of "The Tonight Show?" The host, Jay
Leno, has some Judge Lance Ito look-alikes called "The Dancing
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 14 26 Jun 1995

Itos." They are intended to poke fun at and make fun (and some
might call slanderous fun) of the honerable Judge Ito. However,
Judge Ito has not brought any charges against Mr. Leno, even
though Judge Ito knows the law to it's fullest extent. Does this
say anything to you? Ito could, presumably, file a slander
charge, AND WIN, but he doesn't, because he tolerates other
opinions of himself and doesn't allow this to disturb him.

3) Finally: It is _IMPOSSIBLE_ to sue FidoNet, as others have
wanted others to believe, and they believe themselves. There is
NO organization called FidoNet. "FidoNet" is merely a
name/trademark copyrighted by one Tom Jennings, who is allowing
that name/trademark to be used in conjunction with a
non-incorporated group of amateur sysops. Now, there may be
groups of those sysops who HAVE incorporated into a group, say
called, Net290 (unknown if this network: exists, and, if so, is
incorporated). You can sue that group, but there is no group
called FidoNet. Would you care to list all sysops, users, RCs,
ECs, RECs, ZCs, ZECs, and the IC on the defendant report? Ok,
but you would be suing us in one big lawsuit, not suing FidoNet.

Hope this clears some of this idiocy caused in FidoNet by a Mr.
Germer and a Mr. Winter. (I also notice that there are no
persons with the title of Mrs. or Dr. causing the problems....)

Wes Mills, a point sysop who would really like to see FidoNet
stick around as he really doesn't like the Internet except that
he works for an ISP desigining WWW pages.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: What the hell is going on here?
From: Chris Mai (1:141/1222)

Hello FidoNews,

Here we go again. I think I'll just grab my shovel and
dive right into this ripe pile of fertilizer. I am truly
grateful for the opportunity, for I have never seen such an
enormous pile of dung in my entire life. First off, let me say
political opinions of the Fido structure aside I applaud you,
Mr. Jennings, for your reply in the June 12, 1995 Vol. 12 No. 24
to the demands that you revoke your copyright. I think I would
find it hard to reply so wittily and cheerfully after seeing
some such nonsense.

Now that I have that out of the way, I would like to
further libel Mr. Bob Germer: You are an idiot. How you can go
on with such nonsense about libelous this that and the other
thing is beyond my vast comprehension of the spacetime
continuum. And the crap with threatening them with suits and
such nonsense rivals even the rumored Steve Winters. (No
disrespect, Mr. Winters, as I have never spoken with you but I
have heard you have a bit of a "problem" and it seemed like a
good example <grin>) You sound like a child saying "Don't hit
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 15 26 Jun 1995

me, my Dad will sue you!". Grow up; the real world is full of
nasty people saying nasty things, and just because you don't
like the message doesn't mean you shoot the messenger. I also
remember a great quote something to do with amputation of the
external passage of one's sinus cavity despite their front
cranial shell. (Cutting off your nose despite your face.) With
that out of the way and the arthropod completely dislodged from
my posterior, I'd like to move on to Don Dawson. Shall we?

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Don. You gave me a great fright just as
I finished reading your section of FidoNews. With your great
attitude, and getting yourself arrested, I'm going to get shot.
<g> As for never being rude to new sysops, what about the
training bra incident? <g again> ahahaha (inside joke from
GDASYSOP, don't ask B)) I just found out WHY you got removed
from the nodelist and frankly I'm pretty pissed that something
like that could happen. I pity poor Brian Bonfietti, Dan
Wheeler, Bill Hausler, and Carl Kristoffersen (sp?) for having
to put up with my constant crap and instigation. I certainly
hope that everything is resolved, but I cannot believe you got
arrested for harassment. That simply blows my mind. Who puts
these people in charge of sections of FidoNet? These are the
type of people they sedate and take away their shoelaces in the
real world... Let's just hope Brian doesn't lose his temper with
me and have *HIS* shoelaces taken away :) To make a long story
short, I'd be glad to have you in my net Don, so if ya are
interested freq SPORK from 1:141/1222 (shameless plug <eg>).
You can do your mail any way you damn well please. I firmly
believe in that, as with anything else. Go ahead, all of you;
Ask Don if I give a damn about the way things SHOULD be done
hehehe. Sooo... Being done with defending poor Don and the
injustice dealt to him, I believe I'll move to the censorship of
the InterNet (aka: Information Superhighway!).

Mr. Carl McCaskey, how are you? Lemme just interject
this little comment: Please name for me one instance of
lawmaking where the congressmentals *DO* know what they are
talking about. Did they live life in the middle class? Did
they have to struggle without mommy and daddy's money? Maybe a
couple. Maybe. But, a lot of them, together, pretending to
know something, and thus a lot, about the same thing, which they
know nothing in actuality, will get nothing accomplished, the
bill will fizzle, and they will return to trying to learn to fly
by throwing themselves at the ground and trying to miss.
(slight paraphrase from Douglas Adams, my idol.) Still shoveling
away!

Mr. Rushing, I'd be careful :) Those CRACK-POTs might
sue you WITHOUT having to be in a high-up position. Take poor
Don for instance :) Luckily, the rest of the world sees the
idiots much as yourself and I; idiots. Hmm... Where does that
leave us. Ah yes, right at the beginning!! What's this? Oh my.
I completely left out the part where I tell you all who the hell
I am and what I'm doing taking up your screen space.

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 16 26 Jun 1995

My name is Chris Mai, of Trader's Village BBS
1:141/1222. I have been a full-time SysOp since January 1st,
1995 and had been setting up a bbs for about a year and a half
prior. I'm a perfectionist about some things, and could care
less about others. I like things my way, right away.
Resistance is futile. I'm quite misunderstood at times, but I
assure you most of my debates are purely for pleasure and to get
things going in SysOp echoes. Right Gary? hehe anyway, I
thought my annoyance, pessimism, optimism, cynicism, criticism,
or whatever might cause some sort of intense pleasure,
irritation, or even acceptability. Anyway, yes, I am a teenager.
17 at the moment. However, please don't COMPLETELY discount my
opinion; remember that us teenagers dont forget everything until
we are 18, so I still know everything. Ask Tom Ruddy. To add
further disgust and show my complete lack of decency and
appropriatey (new word; read appropriateness), I'd like to throw
in that I'm single and all female sysops between 15 and 29 feel
free to drop a line :) Anyway, to finish things up, I'm just one
of the many here (hopefully) who sees things going on now and
again and calls them the absolute crock that they are. I
certainly hope my little smartass remarks have brought at least
a smile to your faces, as I know my good buddy Don Dawson will
be falling on the floor LHAO about this whole situation.. p.s.
Don, I thought at first you meant ME Chris would make a good
REC. hehe Tom would probably disagree :) Anyway, that does it
for me its time to end my little 100 line charade. See ya'll in
the nets!

Declaration of war... and Justice to the Hate,

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Fredric Rice (1:102/890)
As always, I was and remain utterly correct

Fredric L. Rice
1:102/890.0 (818) 335-9601
[email protected]

When I first suggested the immediate ejection of any sister-
fucker who spouts/threatens 'lawsuit' to FidoNet SysOps, the
positive response was overwhelming and only one critic stepped
forward publically in FidoNews to rebutt the Policy addition.

At the time I warned that the spewers of ideological hatred
would be the eventual death of FidoNet as a viable, useful
hobby. They can't win an argument rationally because their
positions of hatred are undefendable. They can't win in the
courts but they're not _interested_ in winning: They rely upon
the S.L.A.P.P. lawsuit -- intimidation and financial ruin to
'win' their undefendable positions. The spewers of hatred
know that the bright, positive, happy, fulfilled individuals
they target will rightfully judge the effort of defense and
quietly bow out.

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 17 26 Jun 1995

My fears have certainly been vindicated, haven't they?

As usual the religious zealots among us can't be happy with
both the freedom and the enjoyment the rest of us experience
in our hobbies (FidoNet is but one positive human achievement
under attack by superstitious ignorants) and they've got to
beshit and befoul the honest, loving, positive, hard-working
among us due to their petty, religion-demanding hatred, spite,
and resentment of all that's positive.

FidoNet mistake number 1 was the vote to disband the IFNA
which could have been used to successfully counter
the bastards among us.

FidoNet mistake number 2 was the abolishment of a yearly
dues to be listed in the nodelist payable to the
IFNA. These monies could have also been used to
successfully counter the bastards among us.

FidoNet mistake number 3 is the continued lack of any Policy
statement strictly forbidding the threats of legal
actions, making the offense grounds for immediate
ejection. All SysOps who wish to be listed in the
nodelist is already supposed to read Policy 4 and,
if they agree with the terms, submit their request.
Any threat of legal action against another SysOp with
the rule in effect would have been a clear violation
of the agreement which resulted in connectivity.

FidoNet mistake number 4 is to continue to allow ejected
individuals (and entire systems of individuals) access
to FidoNet and even at times to allow ejected
individuals back into the network. All decisions
should be final. Joining gated 'alternative' nets
should not bea loophole for allowing ejected fucks
from still participating in FidoNet unhindered.

0-=

I want to see Policy 5 ammended and then voted upon. I want to
see George Peace come back and I would like to see everyone
petition Mike Fuchs to continue in his work and ask him to not
let the perpetuators of hatred win.

There's already enough hate-spewers winning in the real world.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Threats & germer
From: RICK LITHGOW (1:2601/574)

This is respose to the recent post in FIDOnews by germer...

BG>
BG> Subject: Libelous Article In Fidonews
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 18 26 Jun 1995

BG> From: Bob Germer (8:950/10)

BG> * Original to: Donald Tees at 1:221/192
BG> CC'd to: Sylvia Maxwell

BG> Mr. Tees and Ms. Maxwell:

BG> An article appeared in the 6/6/95 issue of Fidonews which
BG> contains at least four absolute lies and which also refers to me
BG> as a fool.

Opinions, we have the right to form opinions and state those opinions
as we please... Just as you do..

BG> Here are the specific lies contained in the article. The words
BG> from the Fidonews are preceeded by the initials FN for easy
BG> reference.

FN> Lot's has happened this week... A particular sysop who isn't
FN> even part of FIDO anymore, (he resigned in disgrace).... has

BG> I did not resign in disgrace. This is an absolute lie and libelous.

You resigned, you're a disgrace... the latter is an opinion... Should
we take a poll of region 13 and and others who've dealt with your
rantings?

FN> made a living hell for the real sysops of FIDO. Who is this
FN> sysop you may ask? Bob Germer of Region 8. (I believe this is
FN> family net).

BG> This is another lie. I am not and never was a member of anything called
BG> Family Net.

Actually your bbs and phone number were in the Familynet nodelist...
I have over 5 unaltered nodelists from familynet that shows you in
it... I have been informed though you havent actually used that node
num for a long time and it was just cleaned out. My apologies to
Familynet and all their sysops..

FN> This week he threatened Mike Fuchs with a lawsuit
FN> for allowing Z1_GERMER to be elisted, Mike Fuchs got tired of
FN> putting up with shitheads like germinator that are so cowardly

BG> I am not a shithead. This is a lie and libelous.

Matter of opinion...

BG> I am not a coward. As a decorated veteran, this is a
BG> most serious libel.

You are a coward. Proof: Threats of lawsuits instead of dealing with
the situation like an adult.

FN> The threats of lawsuits are uncalled for in FIDO... The
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 19 26 Jun 1995

FN> first scum to do it was winter (lowercase intentional), now
FN> germinator. What has happened to FIDO? The *C structure refuses

BG> I am not scum. This is a lie and libelous.

opinion... One I'm sure shared by many others...

FN> about lawsuits and other legal actions. Hell, Planet Connect
FN> dumped germer's point status and is probably dumping his entire
FN> service. Planet Connect should be commended on not backing down
FN> from threats. While not everyone has the money that PC has that

BG> This is another lie. Planet Connect is not "dumping his entire
BG> service". This is likewise libelous.

Hehehe .... I said probably... .

FN> should not be a prerequisate(sic?) to backing down... We should
FN> stand up to fools such as the germer's and teh winter's and make

BG> I categorically state that I am not a fool. Unless one can prove
BG> I am a fool, one has libeled me.

You are a fool in my opinion and I'm sure alot of other peoples.. Again...
It's an opinion and one brought on by the actions of yourself.

BG> One who protects his or her rights as I have done and as I will
BG> continue to do is not a fool; such a person is a wise and
BG> responsible citizen.

Protecting your rights is one thing... Threating lawsuits like a
coward until you get your way is another. As to libel should I
discuss when you called me a thief for pulling in USENET off of
planet connect and then a liar? Especially when I pay for it?
Cough... Cough.... How about the phony lawyers name you sent. "Hymen
R. Gottlieb". One such as yourself who've mad anti-semitic statements
such as calling somneone who's Jewish "Ovenbait" is not likely to
have a Jewish atty. But on the off chance you did have an atty. by
that name I had both my lawyers check on that name and there is No
Hymen R. Gottleib practicing in the state of NJ. Nor licenced to
practice there. This is according to my 2 lawyers.

FN> So basicly we need to impeach everyone & start from
FN> scratch as well as make provisions to keep scum who threaten
FN> lawsuits out of FIDO. Everyone has the right to be an asshole
FN> and voice their opinions, but the threats of frivilous lawsuits
FN> needs to be abolished. Also anyone making multiple PC's that are
FN> constantly rejected need to be ousted as well. Let's all make

BG> Again I am libeled by being called scum and further libeled
BG> again by being called an asshole.

I was reffering to scum and asshole in general... Did I mention your
name in that paragraph??

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 20 26 Jun 1995

BG> While one may categorize a suit to protect one's rights
BG> "frivilous", that does not make it so. Using the law to protect
BG> one's name and reputation when libelously attacked is not
BG> frivilous. As Shakespeare (or at least I recall it being the
BG> Bard of Avon) had one of his characters say "He who steals my
BG> purse steals that which is worthless. He who steals my good name
BG> steals that which enriches him not but which empoverishes me
BG> absolutely."

This isn't shakespere and in my opinion to to injustice to anyone
with the name Germer... My apologies to all else with that last name..

BG> Under the laws of the United States, one cannot call others such
BG> names without facing sanctions. One cannot lie about another
BG> without placing the author him or herself in jeopardy of

I have the right to voice my opinions... Again, I refer you to the
PC_SITES echo in which you called me a thief and a liar... I have not
lied about you and I can not face santions for something that's
covered by my first ammendment rights...

BG> criminal and/or civil penalties.

Puuuuhhleeese

BG> The right of free speech does is not absolute. As Chief Justice
BG> John Marshall stated in one of the Supreme Court's earliest
BG> "landmark" decisions, "The right of free speech does not give
BG> one the right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded theater."

Noone yelled fire, nor cause panic....

BG> Moreover, our laws protect ordinary citizens to a much greater
BG> degree than recognized public figures. Persons whose names,
BG> pictures, etc. are widely disseminated in the public press DUE
BG> TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS SUCH AS RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE,
BG> APPEARING IN MOVIES OR TELEVISION SHOWS, APPEARING REGULARLY ON
BG> THE RADIO, etc. must prove malice when bringing suit for libel.
BG> Others do not have the burden to prove malice, they only need
BG> prove the statement untrue. And, in fact, the burden of proving
BG> the truth falls on the author and publisher of the lies.

You are well known in FIDO which is in itself an organzation and the
echoes associated directly/non-directly with it... All comments by me
and anyone else on this network or it's associated/non-associated
conferences(whether regional or backboned) have been kept here...
Noone ran to the newspaper or gossib columnist and said anything
about you...

BG> For example, newspapers have been found guilty of libel for
BG> stating that someone committed a crime for which the person was
BG> not convicted. Newspapers have been held accountable for
BG> claiming a person was a member of one group or another when in
BG> fact that was not the case.

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 21 26 Jun 1995

FIDOnews published what I stated... And it published "MY OPINIONS"....
Sorry....They will not be held liable...

BG> I don't know what the law is in Canada, but I am sure that
BG> spreading lies about someone is not a permissible action. I am
BG> also sure that the publisher of a newspaper, newsletter, etc. is
BG> not immune from suit for doing so.

They did nothing wrong..

BG> You have two options:

BG> 1. You can publish an apology in each of the next five issues
BG> and refrain from publishing anything which contains any untrue
BG> statement about me, contains any article which labels me a fool,
BG> scum, or any other derogatory term, etc.; or,

In my opinion you are a fool and a coward. If you have to resort to
threats in order to get your way, in my opinion then you are a fool
and a coward...

BG> 2. You can continue to publish articles which libel me and meet
BG> me in person in a court of competent jurisdiction.

Puuuhhhhhhhhhhhhlllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!

BG> Your expressed claim that you are not responsible because it is
BG> your practice to publish anything submitted is NOT a defense. In
BG> point of fact and law, it is an absolute admission of guilt. Mr.
BG> Tees not only expressed this verbally, I know I have read it in
BG> the Fidonews in times past. I have every issue since you took
BG> over and am sure I can produce it in court if necessary.

They publish what they feel is newsworty, nothing more, nothing less..

BG> A copy of this letter is being sent to Mr. Tees via Certified
BG> Mail, Return Receipt Requested. A copy will also be sent to the
BG> appropriate ministry in Canada when I find the proper name and
BG> address. I am unable at this time to send Ms. Maxwell a copy via
BG> Certified Mail because I do not have her address.

BG> As the author pointed out in one of the few factual statements
BG> made in the article, I am not a member of Fidonet. I can be
BG> reached via the Internet at [email protected] or at
BG> 8:950/10@RBBSnet from 6PM Eastern prevailing time until 8AM the

I feel sorry for RBBSnet...

Rest Deleted for brevity...

Rick Lithgow, [email protected]. Moderator BOCA_MODEMS/CO-Mod TWIT
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 22 26 Jun 1995

DEF CON III Convention Update #1.80 (06.20.95)
August 4-6th 1995 @ the Tropicana in Las Vegas

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXX X X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXX XXXXXXXXX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXX XX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXX X XX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXX XX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXXxxxxxxXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXXXxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DEF CON III Convention Announcement
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X DEF CON III Convention Announcement

This is an initial announcement and invitation to DEF CON
III, a computer convention for people interested in various
aspects of computer culture. The emphasis is on problems caused
by rapid computerization of businesses and the private sector.
Illegitimate computer access, fraud, privacy concerns, and
encryption technology will be covered in two days of talks by
respected industry professionals. Special talks by "hackers"
will present conflicting perspectives and allow for mixed round
table discussions. This combinations of both forces in
computing today will offer to shed light on ideas that all too
often given only a slanted presentation by the popular media.

WHEN: August 4, 5, 6 - 1995
WHERE: Las Vegas, Nevada at the Tropicana Hotel

Building on the success of DEF CON II, we try to provide
information and speakers in a forum that can't be found at other
conferences. People come to DEF CON for information and for
making contacts. We strive to distinguish this convention from
others in that respect.

What's been said about the previous conventions can be found in
the New York Times (July 25, 1994), Business Week (August 1994),
Info World, Boardwatch (October 1994), The National Law Journal.

The Tropicana has rooms reserved for the convention. Check-in
is 3pm, check-out time is 12 noon. Remember there is an 8%
sales tax in Vegas. Register yearly, only 100 rooms were blocked
for sure. After that it is subject to availability.

65$ Single or Double room, Midweek (Monday - Thursday)
90$ Single or Double room, Weekend (Friday - Sunday)
350$ One-Bedroom Suite (Call for Availability)

The Tropicana, 3801 Las Vegas Blvd. So., Las Vegas, Nevada, 89109
(702) 739-2581 or (800) 468-9494 or (702) 739-2448 (Fax)

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 23 26 Jun 1995

Held in three conference rooms at the Tropicana hotel in Las
Vegas, DEF CON will be interesting and informative. There will
be presentations by specialists in their fields, technical
discussions, infamous and well known videos, mini-seminars on
specific topics, a cu-see-me video conference set up on a t1 net
connection, and many impromptu contacts to be made.

The Tropicana is located right on the "Strip" with the other
three corners of the street occupied by the MGM Grand (Largest
hotel in the world), the Excalibur, and the Luxor. If you can
afford it stay for a couple extra days and see the sights.
There is plenty to do in town if you have never visited. Comdex
does not count as a visit.

COSTS

The price of admission will be 30$ in advance or 40$ at the door.

Friday August 3rd
Registration and getting to know people
Main Convention Room South Pacific Ballrooms

Time Event

10:00 Convention room opens, registration begins.
: Informal demonstrations and getting acquainted through
: out the day.
:
: Network/video/voice bridge up
:
15:00 BATTLE TECH At Virtual World (Buy tickets in advance or at the con)
: Two hours of total combat! 1/2 Battle Tech, 1/2 Red Planet.
:
18:00 SJG's "Hacker" game with the "Hacker II" expansion. The Mastah'
: Haqah play off for the most elite hacker player. Get your group
: together for the hard-core old-school back-stabbing hack attack
: from hell! There can be only one!
:
24:00 Hacker Jeopardy with Winn Schwartau starts, Round #1
:
02:00 Convention room closes up for the day.

Saturday August 4th
Convention begins 10:00 in South Pacific Ballrooms

Time Event

10:00 Key note speech by ()
: Winn Schwartau - Tempest Videos / Year in Review
: Robert Steele - TBA
: Jim Settle - TBA
: Bruce Schenier - Cryptography
: Curtis Karnow - Legal
: Lewis De Payne - How to hack more professionally
15:00 Lunch/Dinner Break Begins
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 24 26 Jun 1995

:
17:00 Evening Sessions Start at 17:00
: Theora and Crew - TBA
: CPSR - Round Table
: EFF - Legal Implications
: Peter Frank - TBA
: Chris Hall - Spy Stuff
21:00 Evening Sessions End at 21:00
:
:
24:00 Hacker Jeopardy with Winn, Round #2, and Final Jeopardy Round.
: "
02:00 Convention room closes up.

Sunday August 5th

Time Event

10:00 Oscar Meyer - How to Hack, or, Toilet Training to Maturity
: Roscoe - How to hack more professionally
: Len Rose - TBA
: Peter Skelly - TBA
: Stepehn Cobb - "Why Hacking Sucks"
: Parmaster - General history of the underground
14:00 Lunch Break Starts at 14:00
:
15:30 Evening Sessions Start at 15:30
: Koresh - TBA
: Susan Thunder - Psychological Subversion of Trusted Systems
: Tagger - Mag Stripe Readers/Writers
: Dead Addict - TBA
18:00 The Convention Ends, Final give aways, awards, and goodbye!

SPEAKERS

This is a partial list of speakers for this year. More are
being invited or waiting to make plans. As this list changes
further announcements will be made. This should give you a
flavor or what to expect, though.

Two of the Speakers, Susan Thunder and Roscoe both are written
about in the book "Cyberpunks." I suggest you go buy it and read
it if you can, it will give you a better perspective about what
they are all about.

[> Bruce Schneier, Author of "Applied Cryptography." TOPIC: Will
speak on issues surrounding cryptography, digital
authentication, digital cash, and will answer questions from
the audience.

[> Winn Schwartau, Author of "Information Warfare" and "Terminal
Compromise" is a consultant to government and the private
sector regarding enterprise and national security concerns.
TOPICS: "Information Warfare, the year in review" (Comedic)
and "Tempest Attack Videos."
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 25 26 Jun 1995

[> Len Rose AKA Terminus. After the legal fiasco Len faced
years ago (as partially chronicled in "The Hacker
Crackdown.") this will be his first chance to speak of his
experiences without the threat of having his parole revoked.
TOPIC: TBA

[> Lewis De Payne, aka "Roscoe" TOPIC: Ultra Hacking - Beyond
Computers: How to make your hacking more successful and
productive while minimizing risk. Learn how to adopt a
business-like strategy, planning your goals, focusing your
strategy and keeping you out of trouble!

[> Curtis Karnow, former federal prosecutor and attorney
focusing on intellectual property litigation and computer
law. TOPIC: Agents in the telecommunications context, and
"smart" software that we 'trust' to do the Right Thing. The
specific issue is legal liability and responsibility for the
actions of intelligent agents, and then spinning off to chat
about the liability for artificial intelligence generally.

[> Robert D. Steele, President of OPEN SOURCE SOLUTIONS, Inc. A
former Spy, Experienced Bureaucrat, Radical Visionary.
Tofflers call him the "rival store" to CIA. Keynote Speaker
at HOPE, Workshop at Hac-Tic '93. TOPIC: TBA

[> The Electronic Frontier Foundation. TOPIC: The EFF will
cover current legal threats privacy and computer information
networks.

[> Stephen Cobb. TOPIC: "The Party's Over: Why Hacking Sucks."
Stepehen intends to play "devil's advocate" and suggest that
"hacking should not be tolerated in any shape or form as it
serves no useful purpose and is a menace to society."

[> Jim Settle, ex-FBI computer crime division department head.
TOPIC: TBA

[> Oscan Meyer. TOPIC: How to Hack - Toilet Training to
Maturity.

[> Peter Skelly. TOPIC: SMS and wide area networking.

[> Tagger. TOPIC: Magnetic stripe card reader-writers and the
"Mod-700."

[> Dead Addict. "Too tired for slack." TOPIC: TBA.

[> Theora. TOPIC: "Don't you hate it when that happens?"

[> Karen Coyle, CPSR, and a pannel of friends. TOPIC: TBA.

[> Peter Franck, National Lawyers Guild. TOPIC: TBA.

[> Parmaster, ex-MOD member, General history of the underground.
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 26 26 Jun 1995

[> Glenn Campbell, Area 51 and "Dreamland" authority. TOPIC: Q
& A, overview of Governmental activities and stuff.

[> Attidute Adjuster. TOPIC: "Extremely technical machine
language discussion on Polymorphic computer viruses, with a
side note on cryptography uses."

[> Susan "Thunder" of "Cyberpunks" fame. TOPIC: Social
Engeneering and Psychological Subversion of Trusted System.

[> Pete "To much coffee man" Shipley, unix stud. TOPIC:
Security audits, how they are performed and what to look for.

[> Koresh, unix hacker and conspiracy theorist supreme. TOPIC:
TBA.

Speakers will be talking Saturday and Sunday, and maybe Friday
depending.

TELEPHONE CONFERENCE BRIDGE (801-855-3326)

For DEF CON III there will be a dial in conference set up. If
you are overseas, or just can't make the convention this year,
you can still get an idea of what is going on and participate.
One part of the voice conference equipment will allow you to
listen to the convention room microphone, another will allow you
to ask questions during the Q&A sections of peoples speeches. A
general conversation area will be up so you can chat with others
at the convention, or just others dialed into the bridge.

BOOTHS and EXHIBITS and SPONSORSHIP and GIVE-AWAYS

There is table space available if you or your company is
interested in showing off or selling your latest product. A
separate room will have tables set up, and are available on a
first come first served basis.

There is also room available in the convention program for you
or your company to advertise their latest and greatest. This is
also first come, first served.

If you or your company is interested in sponsoring a speaker you
receive a table and an advertisement in the program.

If you are interested in either table space or advertising or
sponsoring a speaker please contact Phil at (206) 236-6802 and
he will provide you with a package explaining the costs and
options available.

DEF CON is also looking for product to give away in the raffle.
If your company wants to donate a few copies of their product to
be given away we will be happy to promote it verbally before it
is given away. Software, hardware, books, magazines, etc. would
be examples.
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 27 26 Jun 1995

MORE DEF CON INFORMATION

The World Wide Web Page is located at: http://www.defcon.org/

FTP Site: ftp.fc.net /pub/defcon

Mailing lists: mail [email protected] with the following
statement in the body of your message: "subscribe dc-announce"
This will set you up on the mailing list and you will receive
updated information, information on the other mailing lists
offered, etc. I suggest joining the dc-stuff list just so you
can talk and plan with other people going to the con to
coordinate rides, sharing of rooms, etc.

VOICE OR VOICE MAIL - Planning: 206-453-1006
VOICE OR VOICE MAIL - Advertising: 206-236-6802

FAX: 206-453-9567

E-Mail: [email protected]

Snail Mail: 2709 E. Madison #102, Seattle, WA, 98112

INFORMATION ABOUT LAS VEGAS

WWW PAGES about Las Vegas, Hotels, Things to do, etc.

HTTP://www.infi.net:80/vegas/online/
HTTP://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~iew/index.html
HTTP://www.best.com/~rdc/roger/vegas.html
HTTP://www.intermind.net/las.vegas.on-line/homepage.html

Previous Convention Items

DEF CON I Tapes (4) include the following speakers:

Curtis Karnow: Legal Implications of failure in complex VR systems.
Ray Kaplan: To Hack or not to Hack, that is not the question.
Gail Thackeray: Search and seizure, the roll of "computer cops," and Q&A
Dead Addict: The future of hacking.
Dark Druid (Busted by Gail Thackeray): Getting raided sucks.
Judi Clark of the CPSR: What you can do the become active in the community.
Dan Farmer: Inherient security problems in networks,and a bit on SATAN.
Dr. Mark Ludwig: Let virii live.

DEF CON II Tapes (10) include the following speakers:

Phillip Zimmermann : Keynote Speaker, PGP.
Gail Thackeray : Response to Mr. Zimmermann and Privacy issues.
Chris Hall : Electronic Surveillance.
Curtis Karnow : Recombinant Culture, Crime in the Digital Network.
Dr. Mark Ludwig : Virus Creation Awards and What to do when the Feds come.
Judi Clark, Mara, Fen and Marianne in a Round Table Discussion.
The Dark Knight : Hacking in the UK
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 28 26 Jun 1995

Sara Gordon, Mark Aldrich, Phil Zimmermann: Internet & PGP privacy concerns.
Annaliza (Torquie) : The European Underground scene.
Mark Lottor : Various cellular topics.
Winn Schwartau : HERF guns, Van Eck, Information Warfare
Peter Beruk : The role of the SPA, general Q&A.
Padgett Peterson : Anti-Virus writing, Cleaning up other peoples messes.
The Jackal : A basic radio overview with Q&A.
Artimage : Underground spoof and give aways.
Stephen Dunifer : Radio Free Berkeley and pirate media.
Damien Thorn : Random Cell information from the late night tech talks.

Stuff is for sale from DEF CON I and II in case you are
interested. From the first year we have audio tapes (4 90
minute tapes) for $20 and the second year (10 90 minute tapes)
for $30. Tee Shirts are still availabe from last year for $20,
they are white and long sleeve.

SHIPPING : Please include 3.00 for priority shipping.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Connecticut Harassment law/what next?
Al Filandro 1:141/885, 1:141/1885@Fidonet, cygnus@pcnet,[email protected]
Connecticut Computer Harassment law passes

I was recently shocked to learn that my state passed the
nations First computer/network "anti-harassment" bill into law.
The reason for my shock stems from the fact that I do not see
how this law can be either enforced or outlined. What is
harassment on a computer? If I received phone-calls or
snail-mail of a harassing nature, I may deem fit to take issue
BUT computers, BBSs and the internet have always been
self-governed entities with their own set of rules governing
behavior.

For instance, my first experiences with BBSs back in
1983 were probably typical of many youths. I called a local BBS
also run by youths whereby we partook in "bitch wars"...flaming
each other and sometimes going overboard in the things we said.
I guess you could consider it harassment if you wanted to: a
bunch of kids with handles flaming each other in a message base
each trying to out-do the other. Even today, on my BBS and
probably every-other in America and abroad, there are kids 12-16
leaving little "stabs" at their friends', foes and acquantences.
Personally, I find not-too much wrong with this along as its
done in good fun but now this kind of activity is seemingly
bordering on harassment.

What is harassment? On a computer-network such as
Fidonet or Internet, just about ANYTHING can be misconstrued
into being harassment. For instance, how many times have you
posted a message to someone in an echo or whatever and someone
misinterpreted your words? I remember so many instances where
this has occured to me throughout the years. What about the
Internet..how does a State-law encompass a worldwide network
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 29 26 Jun 1995

into its realm? I shudder to think what would happen if our
Governor ever were to go on to something like Lambdamoo and
subscribe to a couple of "mailing lists" there or partake in
conversation with some of the more-bigoted people that frequent
there. What, also, happens when the brand-new SysOp gets his
first logoff "hatemail" that states 'You suck and your board
sucks'....Is that harassment? What happens when a user
inadvertantly uploads a file that has a virus in it...that can
be looked at as harassment too even if it was of no-fault of the
user.

It is sad to me that our representatives, congresspeople
and law enforcement authorities are...for the most part...still
so out of touch with the realities of Computer-networks. BBS's
have been around since 1978 and "The Internet" was opened up to
universities in 1983 and yet you still here this quabble from
our leaders about this new thing called the Internet and
Cyberspace and how we need to regulate it.

The reason I am so opposed and upset about this law is
not that I don't empathize with those who have been legitimately
"harrassed", but rather because there are two factors which make
this law into a possible blind-justice/witch hunt law. If those
in power are so apparently ignorant to online-computer-networks,
how can they possibly create or enforce laws based on them?

Al Filandro
Fidonet 1:141/885
[email protected]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Libel
From: Brad Crockett (1:340/201)

Hello Donald!

Sure, the last thing that you wanted to read was more about this
libel stuff. However, I thought that I might have something to
offer you...

I just went through a bit of a scare myself. Recently, some
members of Duncan city council made a decision to clear cut a
park after a windstorm brought down a few trees. The whole city
is really mad at them, and had demanded that they restore the
park and resign. But, city council went ahead and ordered the
park planted with grass. With the incredible pressure to make
land available to developers in this town, it seemed as if some
people were getting bought out to make land available.

I wrote a letter to the editor of our local newspaper
insinuating that perhaps someone had their pockets lined. The
paper printed it, and shortly after the paper received a letter
from the city's lawyer telling them that the letter was
defamatory and that they had better print a retraction and lay
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 30 26 Jun 1995

off in the future. The lawyers sent me a copy of the letter -
if they hadn't I would never have known about it - the letter
did NOT print a retraction.

I looked up slander and libel in my law text, and sure enough,
what I had written was defamatory and would get me on the wrong
end of a judgement if it went to court EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT
IT WAS POLITICIANS INVOLVED.

I don't think that a court of law would look at Bob Germer as a
politician, so it's not likely that someone publishing a
defamatory statement could use the defense of 'fair comment'.

I hate to say it, but I think that Bob is correct - the stuff
that has been printed in the snooze is often libelous. As a
matter of fact, a good deal of the content of most of the echos
is libelous!

Someone in the snooze suggested that each Fido participant
partake in some sort of 'waiver' which excludes them from the
right to take legal action for defamation. That would certainly
make it easier to edit the snooze, but, I think, it would also
encourage flaming.

(Hey - maybe we could reduce flaming by ENCOURAGING libel suits!)

Anyway, at the risk of appearing to be another 'enemy of free
speech', I would like to say that I would not miss it if you
were to edit out all of the defamatory stuff that gets submitted
to the snooze. I'm sure that it would encourage more excellent
articles - I get tired of all this legal stuff!

Brad

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Reply to Germer

Dear Editor,

The Only reply Bob Germer should recieve towards his article
about libel etc. is:

"Bob, Shut the hell up!"

Heheheh, just thought you might want to hear from one reader who
enjoys your efforts and thinks that Bob's got Brown eyes if you
know what I mean! :)

Furthermore, HOW does one know where a message came from? YOU
DON'T, Bob may THINK he knows where fido messages come from, but
anyone can pretend to be anyone else out here. I can setup any
mailer, I can setup any BBS system, I can use a hex editor and
change serial numbers or reg numbers to pretend to be anyone I
choose. Also, you can poll someone's feed just as they would,
FidoNews 12-26 Page: 31 26 Jun 1995

and get all the SEEN-BYEs you want to try an make it even more
authentic as to where a message came from. Also, if you try
tracking someone down, and ask someone's feed in a court of law
"DID YOU SEE THIS MESSAGE COME FROM THIS PERSON'S SYSTEM? DID
YOU HAVE CALLERID TO KNOW IT WAS HIS NUMBER?" Let's face it,
there are even ways to make CALLERID come up with someone's
number. In short, court cases against electronic mail don't
amount to shit.

Laters All,
The Mail Demon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

========================================================================
Fidonews Information
========================================================================

------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ----------------

Editors: Donald Tees, Sylvia Maxwell
Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell,
Vince Perriello, Tim Pozar
Tom Jennings
"FidoNews" BBS
FidoNet 1:1/23
BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS)

more addresses:
Don -- 1:221/192, [email protected]
Sylvia- 1:221/194, [email protected]

(Postal Service mailing address)
FidoNews
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Canada
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voice: (519) 570-3137
sylvia: (519) 579-8029

Fidonews is published weekly by and for the members of the FIDONET
INTERNATIONAL AMATEUR ELECTRONIC MAIL system. It is a compilation
of individual articles contributed by their authors or their
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does not diminish the rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in
these articles are those of the authors and not necessarily those of
FidoNews.

Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
Copyright 1995 Donald Tees. All rights reserved. Duplication
and/or distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use
in other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or the eds.

FidoNews 12-26 Page: 32 26 Jun 1995

OBTAINING COPIES: The most recent issue of FidoNews in electronic
form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or
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PRINTED COPIES may be obtained by sending SASE to the above paper-mail
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INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.fidonet.org,
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Anyone interested in getting a copy of the INTERNET GATEWAY FAQ may
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"Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
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' ' disgreement is actually necessary,
or we'd all have to get in fights
or semethin to amuse ourselves,,
and create the requisite chaos."
-Tom Jennings
-- END
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