F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.34 (23-Aug-1993)

F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.34 (23-Aug-1993)
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| A newsletter of the | |
| FidoNet BBS community | Published by: |
| _ | |
| / \ | "FidoNews" BBS |
| /|oo \ | +1-519-570-4176 1:1/23 |
| (_| /_) | |
| _`@/_ \ _ | Editors: |
| | | \ \\ | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 |
| | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 |
| |__U__| / \// | Tim Pozar 1:125/555 |
| _//|| _\ / | |
| (_/(_|(____/ | |
| (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. |
| | -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Submission address: editors 1:1/23 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet addresses: |
| |
| Sylvia -- [email protected] |
| Donald -- [email protected] |
| Tim -- [email protected] |
| Both Don & Sylvia (submission address) |
| [email protected] |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| For information, copyrights, article submissions, |
| obtaining copies and other boring but important details, |
| please refer to the end of this file. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
========================================================================
Table of Contents
========================================================================

1. Editorial..................................................... 2
2. Articles...................................................... 2
H-Net adds H-Land........................................... 2
GUUCP Addresses............................................. 4
Zone 1/Region 18: Coordinated or Controlled................. 4
Fidonet/BBS meeting in Estonia.............................. 9
Non-BackBone (NoBone) Echomail Distribution Proposal........ 11
RegionCon '93 in Region 17.................................. 12
THE VENDINFO COMMERCIAL PLAN................................ 13
Introducing RockNet!........................................ 19
The ANSi Phallicy........................................... 19
Compression again........................................... 20
Take it to Iran, boys....................................... 22
TIMES HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH.................................. 23
The rest of the story (re "WHOLLY_BIBLE")................... 25
3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 27
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 2 23 Aug 1993

========================================================================
Editorial
========================================================================
The de-facto standard of Fidonews has always been "we print
what we get". Sometimes, the articles sent in make that
difficult.

The current spate of articles by Mr. Decker, Mr. Winter, et
al are a perfect example. If it were the first time, maybe it
would be more palatable. However, it is not. As regularly as
clockwork, Mr. Winter writes an article making wild accusations
against the world. As regular as clockwork, Mr. Decker jumps
into the fray sending in vast missives protecting the free world
from religious bigotry. The two escalate their war while
new-comers jump in from both sides. It is so predicatable and
boring that this editor is tempted to just push the articles
into the bit bucket as they arrive. I have taken the liberty of
placing the articles at the end of the issue, where they are
easier to ignore.

There has also been concern expressed about commercial
ventures using fidonews as "free" advertising. Just to clarify
matters somewhat, the snooze will turn down articles that we see
as blatant ads. However, blatant is the operative word. A well
written, informative article that pertains to sysops might be
included. It is dependant upon how usefull we perceive it to
be. I would add to that, however, that we also expect
knowlegable users to comment on such articles. In other words,
an article makes you fair game.
========================================================================
Articles
========================================================================
H-Net adds H-Land

By Jason Garneau 1:325/304
H-Net adds H-Land!

/ / /\ / --------------
/ / / \ / / /
/-----/ -=- / \ / /---- /
/ / / \ / / /
/ / / \/ -------- /
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=(H-Net / H-Land Echomail Network)=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

H-Net (Handle-Net) has just added an entire new series
of echos known as H-Land! H-Land is our attempt to make a
simulated world to communicate with other users on a more
natural level. Wheter you want to grab a burger at Mac
Ronald's, go to the party room, or take a stroll down Main
Street, you can always feel at home with H-Land. H-Land
suggests handles, as it is a part of H-Net, but if your board
does not support handles, you are still welcome to join in on
the fun!

FidoNews 10-34 Page: 3 23 Aug 1993

So, if you're interested in escaping into the online
world of H-Land, FREQ HNETMEMB.ZIP which includes the latest
policy, nodelist, echolist, and application form (which is
attached to the end of this article) from Online World BBS,
Fidonet 1:325/304.

--------------------------------------
| H-Net Application Form 2.0 |
| |
|-------------------------------------
| SysOp First Name __________________|
| SysOp Last Name __________________|
| Mother's Maiden name ______________|
| BBS Name (To be listed in nodelist)|
| ___________________________________|
| BBS Phone Number (___)___-____ |
| City __________________|
| State (Province) __________________|
| Country __________________|
| Fidonet Address (if one) |
| _:____/____ |
| Modem Protocols (X 'em): |
| ( ) HST ( ) V32 ( ) V32Bis |
| ( ) V42 ( ) V42Bis ( ) PEP |
| ( ) CSP ( ) MNP ( ) Pvt |
| ( ) CM ( ) XA ( ) XX |
| ( ) ZYX ( ) 2400-Only |
| ( ) Other: ________________________|
| |
--------------------------------------

Please poll for mail in 48 hours, and you will receive your new
node number, and the latest nodelist with your BBS included.

Note to all BBS users: If you are interested in H-Net / H-Land,
please ask your sysop if he would be willing to carry
H-Net.

So, I hope to see you in the H-Net nodelist soon!
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 4 23 Aug 1993

GUUCP Addresses
By: Matt Riedel, 1:2606/408

This is a follow-up article on my article a few weeks back about
InterNet-FidoNet.. The article (I forget what FidoNews it was in)
told how to address an email message from FidoNet to the Internet.
I gave only one address to do this through.. 1:1/31. I went through
the nodelist and found all the GUUCP sites.. At these sites, you will
be able to (more likely than not) gate at least email through to the
InterNet. So, here is the list of all the nodes marked with a GUUCP
flag (as of NODELIST.225):

Zone 1:
102/850 103/110 103/200 103/234 125/1 125/5109 143/8 202/217
202/723 213/113 110/300 139/610 226/20 233/13 2200/2112 2320/110
167/281 248/114 (This node is on Hold) 250/98 107/930 109/401
270/311 2604/88 (Down) 2606/533 280/338 282/31 282/341 15/9
(Region) 104/418 104/422 114/9 300/23 300/14 16/390 (Region, New
England) 141/420 321/218 324/121 324/132 325/2 333/401 105/6
105/7 105/14 105/42 343/94 (Down) 346/10 357/1 133/411 363/42
369/11 373/12 374/60 (Pvt) 3603/230 3624/6 106/88 124/2206
130/63 147/3660 170/106 382/39 391/1060

Zone 2: 285/406 317/6 (Pvt) 320/100

Zone 3: 632/400 712/400 (Pvt)

Zone 4: 850/0

Zone 5: 7104/2

Zone 6: Sorry, none.

It may be of good gesture to email ahead to see if it is alright to
gate email through them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Zone 1/Region 18: Coordinated or Controlled

A Sysop's point of view

by Nolan Shapiro
(1:3620/14) (116:109/10) (18:715/361)
(150:401/0) (44:3502/0)

Let me establish some bona fides, if I may:

I have been a part of the electronic communications community for
many, many years. My first system was a Tandy 1000, no HD, and a
300baud modem. When I first linked in to FidoNet it was as a Point.
Shortly thereafter I obtained my own node number and operated as a
mail only system. I now run a full-time BBS; moderate echoes on two
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 5 23 Aug 1993

separate networks; am NC/NEC of Net401 (PoliceNet) and of Net3502
(SAF-NET) with Hubs/downlinks in four states.

I offer all of the above for the sole purpose of establishing that
what I have written, here, was not based upon uninformed opinion nor
rash judgements for which I have no experiential basis.

The object of this exercise, my friends, is to rebut the self-serving
article, written by Chris Baker (RC18), which appeared in the FidoNews
of August 2, 1993.I have a copy of that article, printed out, before
me as I write this. I also have more than 300 messages in the
Region 18 Sysop echo, on my system, to some of which I will, from time
to time, refer.

Before I address these, and other points of interest to those of us in
Zone 1/Region 18, I must tell you that I have never met Chris Baker,
RC18, nor have I spoken with him. What I know of him is garnered from
his messages in the Region 18 Sysop echo. It was upon that `knowledge'
that I voted for him, it is also the basis of my opposition to his
continuing in that office. There is nothing personal in this since,
as I said, I have no personal knowledge of Chris Baker.

Okay, with the scene all set --- here we go!

- What if I were to tell you that a certain body of rules was "a load
of crap" and, subsequently, judged you by those very same rules?

The words in quotes were used by Chris Baker, in an EchoMail message,
in reference to Policy4. Yet it is that very same Policy4 which he
falls back on when it suits his purpose.

- What if I determined that you had violated those rules and applied
sanctions against you?

Again, despite his belief that Policy4 is `crap' Baker uses/abuses
it when making rulings from his RC seat.

- What if I told you that if you don't agree with my ruling then you
have a "comprehension problem" and that my interpretation of those
rules is infallible?

In more than one response to disagreements with him, Baker has posted
EchoMail replies using the words I have quoted. He did not, in those
same messages, even attempt to address the disagreement nor did he
clarify his previous statement so that the recipient of the message
might be better informed.

- What if I violate those self-same rules, where it was seen by many
others, and then denied any violation due to the manner in which I
have interpreted them?

More than once, as evidenced by action taken by Baker, this has been
the case.

Rather than just take my word for it, allow me to suggest that those
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 6 23 Aug 1993

of you in Zone1/Region18 access the Region 18 Sysop echo. You will
find such incongruities as Baker insisting, for example, that he did
not send a particular message with the `file attach' bit set _despite_
the fact that the recipient of that message posted the pertinent
portion of his log showing that, indeed, the bit _was_ set!

Indulge me, if you will, and allow me to offer another illustration:

Baker has posted, in R18Sysop, that MAKENL is the `official' nodediff
software of FidoNet. When challenged to show where this is documented
he falls back, as he usually does, by ignoring the question and
impugning the writer's comprehension and/or understanding of FidoNet.
As a consequence of this `ruling' Baker has effectively, and
improperly, disenfranchised every Region 18 NC who does not run an IBM
compatible system.

Yet another illustration:

Baker E-Listed the R18Sysop echo, complete with a set of rules but
without a named moderator. When questioned about this, by me, he said
that we, the Sysops, were a collective Moderator and that it was our
job to regulate the echo. Even were this so, it still remains
unanswered why he took it upon himself to E-List the echo and to
write the rules for it without any input from those of us who, he now
says, will be governed by the same.

Yet another illustration:

Despite the fact that he has stated that the *EC structure is outside
of his province of governance, Baker recently returned a nodediff to
a NC because of a "fake" UNEC flag flown by one of the nodes. How,
one wonders, did Baker make the determination that the flag was fake
and by what authority did he return the nodediff?

I will quote Baker's message to the NC, which was posted in the
R18Sysop echo by the recipient. My comments are indicated thus;
* comment *:

By: Christopher Baker
To: Charles Hiehle
Re: This is your last warning
St: Pvt Rcvd
---------------------------------
CC: Rick Haburne, Todd Sickmiller, Bob Satti

It is not your job to act like an irresponsible twit in FidoNet.

* Is _this_ the proper manner for a RC to address a NC? *

It is your job to carry out your NC duties in a competent manner and
without being annoying, excessively annoying, or just plain stupid.

* Again, is it proper for the RC to address a NC in this manner? *

You will submit a normal Net segment without the frivolous nonsense
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 7 23 Aug 1993

and without the fake UNEC notation on Haburne's Node or your Net will
be dissolved as a trivial Net without a single competent Sysop
available to act as Net Coordinator.

* How did Baker make the determination that the UNEC flag was fake?
* Is the overt threat to dissolve an entire net indicative of Baker's
* attempt to `coordinate' or is it an exercise in `control?' *

If you fail to take this warning to heart, each member of Net 3655
will be removed from the Nodelist when Net 3655 is dissolved and they
will then have to find a Net to take them in through the normal
application process.

* Again, is this threat a proper manner in which to coordinate or,
* rather, is it an attempt to control? *

Each of you has demonstrated a complete disregard for FidoNet
protocols, procedures, and cooperation.

* It is interesting to note that Baker installed _this_ NC after
* `firing' the previous NC. It is also interesting to note that the
* sysop flying the UNEC flag _is_ the previous NC. *

The only thing keeping Net 3655 in the Nodelist at this time is the
chance that one or more of you will come to your senses and make a
conscious decision to stop behaving like spoiled children who've had a
toy they were not ready for taken away.

* Once again, my friends, is _this_ the proper manner for a RC to
* address a NC? *

Please consider your next action very carefully. It is up to you. You
can decide to act like responsible members of FidoNet or you can go
back to the Nets from whence you came.

* Please take very careful note of the last sentence. *

The choice is yours. Submit a real Net segment without the extensions
and false flags or have your Net dissolved in the next Nodelist.

* What right does Baker have to claim that a net's segment, as
* submitted by the NC, is not "real" and that "false flags" are
* shown? *

Herein is quoted the unacceptable segment you just sent in under cover
of your foolish password of FYCBFYCB:

* Use your imagination and you will be able to `read' the password.
* Is _that_ the reason, perhaps, why the net's seg was sent back?
* What right does Baker have to label as "foolish" whatever password
* anyone wishes to use? *

;A Host Nodelist for Friday, August 6, 1993 -- Day number 218 : 06256
Host,3655,CrossNet,Crossville_TN,Charles_Hiehle,1-615-456-4197,
,20,bYTES_&_pC'S_rBBS,cROSSVILLE_tn,rICK_hABURNE,1-615-456-4096,UNEC
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 8 23 Aug 1993

* I have deleted _only_ the modem speed and software flags. Can any
* of you tell me what is `wrong' with these lines? I cannot find any
* fault with the format. *

What happens next depends on your performance.

* As determined by whom? Based upon what? Why, based upon Baker's
* sole determination, of course! *

TTFN.
Chris
RC18

Thus endeth the castigation and threats.

Let's take a look at another issue raised by Baker's actions.

The following was posted in the E-List:

Tagname: HOST18 Area Key: HOST18
Title: Region 18 Coordinator Business Echo
Description: Provides a Coordinator-only forum for discussion of
Region 18 Coordinator business. It is the primary
communication channel between the RC and the NCs for
routine traffic. Netmail will still be used for official
Region traffic requiring action. HOST18 Echo is
Moderated by the current Region 18 Coordinator. This
Echo is open to active, Nodelisted Region 18 Co-
ordinators ONLY. No one other than current NCs [and NECs
for information] may obtain or have access to this
restricted Echo.
Moderators: Christopher Baker, 1:374/[email protected]
Date added: 4-Aug-93
Last changed: 4-Aug-93
Changed by: Christopher Baker, 1:374/14.

The following is from Region 18 Policy, a ratified document, which
Baker stated, while running for election to RC, he would support:

14. Dedicated Regional Echo Conferences

Numerous regional echomail conferences are available for
distribution throughout Region 18. The following
conferences are of particular note for their role in the
distribution of information of regional importance to the
members of Region 18:

HOST18 - This is a discussion area available to all local
Net Coordinators and Net Echo Coordinators for the
discussion of administrative issues. Since this is
frequently used for dispersing information from the Regional
Coordinator to all net administrations and for gaining
consensus on issues that may affect regional operations, all
local Net Coordinators are encouraged to participate in this
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 9 23 Aug 1993

echo. Although the minimum information required to conduct
any region-wide voting will be distributed via netmail, this
echo is considered the official forum for discussion of
regional business.

You will note that whereas Baker's E-List entry restricts NECs to
"information" access, the Region 18 Policy gives them full access.

Is _this_ RC abiding by his Region's ratified policy?

Did he misrepresent himself, during the election campaign,
when he clearly stated that he would support a Region 18 Policy?

The answers to both of these questions are obvious!

The bottom line, my friends, is this:

Chris Baker (RC18), who may be a very fine person, has clearly
demonstrated his contempt for Policy 4; has clearly demonstrated
his contempt for Region 18 Policy, as ratified by the region's
sysops; has clearly demonstrated his contempt for sysops, in general,
and a NC in particular.

All of which, in the minds of many Region 18 sysops, makes Chris Baker
unfit to continue as, or be re-elected to the RC18 position.

Thank you for your attention and, please, obtain a link to the Region
18 Sysop echo so that you can see for yourself that all of what I have
written is true.

Nolan Shapiro
Sysop, Region 18

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Fidonet/BBS meeting in Estonia

Fidonet/BBS meeting in Estonia.

Report by Ron Dwight 2:220/22

Last year I attended a SysOp meeting in Tallin, the capital of
Estonia. The meet was fun and this year's meet was no
exception. A small group of us from Finland visited the meet
this year and I'll describe some of the events in approximate
chronological order:

Friday at 14:00 we arrived in Tallin on the boat from Helsinki.
The trip took about 4 hours, costed around $75 return and was a
good opportunity for relaxation. The food on the boat is second
to none and all alcohol is served at duty free prices, a welcome
relief from the exhorbitant prices generally levied in Finland.

We were met at the harbour by a small gropup of SysOps in a
minibus which, with a short detour to pick up computer
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 10 23 Aug 1993

equipment, battery backup units and a case of beer for the trip,
headed south to the camp. The meeting itself, called BBSummer,
was held near the town of Polva (the "o" has umlauts), about
240Kms to the south east of Tallin and near to Tartu.

Friday at 18:00 or thereabouts, we arrived at the camp, which is
on the shore of a small lake. The main building is huge with
some 10 bedrooms, self-service kitchen and the usual facilities.
GIF pictures of this building and a number of the "crew" are
available from 2:220/22 using the magic name BBSUMMER (about
700Kb). Outside, about 100 metres away is a massive sauna and
other camping ground facilities. The timetable for the meet was
published and went as follows:- (My Estonian is pretty rough so
please don't jump if I'm wrong)

Friday 1800 CONNECT
2000 Registration
2200 Sponsor announcements
2300 Sauna

Saturday 0900 Hangover removal, swimming etc.
1000 Demo, 8 bit vs 16 bit sound cards
1200 Games and competitions
1400 FrontDoor APX & Co
1500 Discussions from the sponsors
1600 Presentation from BBSidest
1800 More competitions, disc throwing etc.
2000 Discussion on the Internet and it's
relationship to Fidonet
2200 Demo of new software
2300 Sauna

Sunday 0900 The timeTable mentions something about
INTENSIVE something, I slept through it, as
doing anything involving INTENSITY on a sunday
morning is definitely not on.
1000 Computer competitions
1200 Competition finals
1400 Prize giving and closing speeches
1600 NO CARRIER

The sponsors of the event were MicroLink, HNS, Baltic Computer Systems,
Marvin Expert, Skriining, and Handikap.

Although the time-table was not strictly followed, there was
almost always something going on. Music was provided by an
ultra high power stereo which blasted Techno-Rock at multi-
hundred watts until at least 04:00 each morning, making sleep
(at least for the sober) almost impossible. Still it was not
intended to be a sleeping meet anyway.

Other pertinent details of the camp were:

Attendees: Over 125 fee paying SysOps, most of them having node
numbers in FidoNet. Yes folks, almost the whole of Fidonet
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 11 23 Aug 1993

Region 49 was there.

Food: Breads, sausages, cheese and potato salad in unlimited
quantities. Local restaurants about 10 mins away by car for
the picky.

Drink: Unlimited quantities of the local brew in huge kegs.
It was not wonderfully alcoholic, but it did put a few SysOps to
sleep.

Cost: For the the 46 hours of the camp, including rooms, food,
beer and sauna .. USD 3.40 per person, yes you read it right,
three dollars and forty cents per person. Didn't someone
complain recently about LuxCon being too "cheap"? You shoulda
been here friend!

I would like to express my appreciation to ALL the attendes for
a great time at the camp with special thanks to Madis Kaal
(RC/49) and Tarmo Mamers, not forgetting Sulo, Andrus and the
minibus driver. See you all next year folks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Non-BackBone (NoBone) Echomail Distribution Proposal

by Grinning Coyote, 1:133/99
Non-BackBone (NoBone) Echomail Distribution Proposal

I've thought about this for several years, and see that getting an
echo onto the present BackBone is a difficult enough procedure that
there needs to be a secondary method. I would like to propose the
NoBone.

The NoBone would offer Moderators a medium to get the proposed nodes
required to get their echos onto the BackBone. Requirements for the
NoBone are simple:

(1) NoBone echos cannot be on the BackBone (echos which later
become backbone are discussed below).

(2) Moderators of NoBone echos must deliver the echo to the NoBone
for distribution.

That's it.

The NoBone Distribution Site closest to the Moderator would keep track
of how many, and which nodes were carrying each echo, and as those
numbers reached the requirement to request the RECs to make the
BackBone Request, a detailed message would be sent to the Moderator,
to request said echo to become BackBone. Echo Restrictions would be
adhered to completely, so the moderators would still have full control
of their own echos, even to the point of NoBone Distributors passing
through echos that they do not qualify for, and not carrying these
echos on their board proper. Any request for removal of an echo from
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 12 23 Aug 1993

the NoBone would be acted on immediately, and the moderator would be
notified as to which nodes would be affected so that the moderator can
choose which nodes to re-distribute his/her own echo to.

Once an echo reached BackBone status, the echo in question would be
dropped from the NoBone in an orderly manner to remove the risk of
dupe loops and to lower costs to both 'Bones.

The NoBone would be a distribution medium that would allow echos to
become popular enough for the BackBone that would otherwise go
unnoticed due to an inability to find the echo. It would also provide
a low-cost distribution for these echos for those who would like them.

Questions and suggestions for refinement of the NoBone are welcome. I
would like to solicit for NoBone Distribution Sites from all Regions
and Zones. All Netmail on the subject should be sent to Grinning
Coyote, 1:133/99.

<Grin>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

RegionCon '93 in Region 17

by Tom Hall, 1:342/1
RegionCon '93 in Kelowna, British Columbia

After two years without one, on August 5 and 6, Region 17 finally held
its annual RegionCon in Kelowna, the heart of British Columbia's
beautiful Okanagan Valley. It was a wonderful experience finally
getting to meet Bob Satti, Dallas Hinton, Adrian Walker, Ed
Kwasniewski (who basically put this whole affair together), and a
number of the Net 353 folk (Doug Evans, Phil Snidal, Mauro Incrocci,
Scott Montle). I've also had the pleasure of meeting John English, Sue
Cox, Lisa Gronke, Steve Larsen, Denis Tonn, Ken Kavanagh, Brian
Hampson, and Lloyd Miller -- in no particular order).... It was also
great seeing Ken Ganshirt again, whom I met at the RegionCon Net 342
hosted in Edmonton in 1989. Brian McCullough from my own net was
there, as were Norbert Lange and Bob Ross from Calgary.

Bob Satti insists that the only reason he got up early enough to make
the 9am session on Thursday was that I ordered him to do so at the pub
the night before. I adamantly refuse to acknowledge this on the
grounds of diminished capacity, as I was amongst the few stragglers
still clinging to our chairs when the establishment tactfully informed
us that they would like to close for the evening.

The weather cooperated -- perhaps TOO well.... It was hotter than the
hinges of Hades for the entire week. The sun returned with a vengeance
the day before I arrived here (last Sunday), and the temperatures have
ranged into the low 30's (upper 80's for you folk south of the 49th)
every day this week.

The gathering was notable in a number of respects. It was, as far as
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 13 23 Aug 1993

anyone could determine, the first regional convention in the history
of Fidonet at which the ZC, RC and REC were all present. In addition,
there were people such as Ken Ganshirt and Lloyd Miller who have been
around Fidonet since God was a baby <grin>, and one sysop in
particular, Jean Bygrave, the region's newest sysop with the issue of
the nodediff which came out that Friday

Besides being a close personal friend for the past 25 years, Jean also
represented what became a focal concern of the first day's discussion
-- the sometimes overawing effect of Fidonet upon new sysops just
joining the network. Those of us who've been around a long time tend
to forget just how complicated things look from the perspective of the
newcomer, and one of the first things to come out of the first day's
discussions was the recognition of a real need to establish a
mechanism of welcoming new people into the net (at the local as well
as the regional level), and pointing these new people to the right
place for getting the answers to their questions.

The hallmark of this RegionCon was informality, and the provision of
ample alternatives to "talking shop". The awesome beauty of the
Okanagan Valley impressed everyone. Ed Kwasniewski organized a picnic
at one of the area's many beautiful lakeshore parks, and on Friday
afternoon led us all on a merry chase about the countryside, starting
with an excellent luncheon at Turtle Creek Marine Pub, followed by a
tour of a couple of the several excellent wineries this area is noted
for.

At the Friday morning session, Adrian Walker led the group in a
discussion of GMD, and several others provided some background
information on why such utilities may become necessary in the near
future. This discussion ranged far and wide, including the
desirability of secure inbound mail areas. Adrian also impressed the
group by drawing freehand on a blackboard an outline map of North
America to illustrate how our region connects to the backbone for its
echomail.

This was only my second regioncon (the first being the one our net
hosted in 1989), but once again, for me, the pleasure of putting faces
to the names I've corresponded with over the years and making new
friends eclipses all other considerations. Meeting this year's
participants has once again reminded me of what I firmly believe
Fidonet is really all about -- people.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

THE VENDINFO COMMERCIAL PLAN
By a BBS Sysop Zone 1

Recently an update on one man's project named VENDINFO, appeared in
Fidonews. A project many Fido sysops are not aware of, but should
be.

Described by it's promoter as follows.

FidoNews 10-34 Page: 14 23 Aug 1993

"VENDINFO is a system for conveying software product information
and distribution permissions from the author to distributors.
A standard (public) file format will carry extensive information
in a compressed, efficient form. The associated toolset will aid
the author in constructing the record, and will allow the
distributor to extract portions of the record, or make
distribution decisions based on its content, in a highly auto-
mated way. VENDINFO will allow automation of many operations now
performed manually by BBS Sysops, disk vendors, etc."

From the author's concept documents, we read some of what VENDINFO
is projected to answer.

------(begin excerpt)----------------------------------------------

o I am a BBS Sysop charging users a monthly fee of $5.00 US,
with no additional charges for downloads. I wish to dis-
tribute PACKAGE.ZIP. Does its author allow this distribution?

o I am the manager of a FidoNet-based file distribution network
to which PACKAGE.ZIP has been submitted. I am considering
publishing a CD-ROM of such files, intended for use only by
Sysops in this network. May I place this package on the CD-
ROM?

o I am a mail-order disk vendor and an ASP Vendor Member,
charging $6 per 360K diskette. May I distribute PACKAGE.ZIP?
Do I need explicit permission, or are the necessary permis-
sions already given in the author's distribution restric-
tions?

o I am a mail-order disk vendor and I already have the author's
written permission to distribute this product by mail-order
catalog. I am now negotiating deals for retail-store rack
distribution and for a CD-ROM aimed at end users. May I
include PACKAGE.ZIP in either or both of these ventures?

o I am constructing a CD-ROM intended for sale to BBS Sysops. I
want to be sure not only that I have permission to include
this package, but also that the author allows unlimited
distribution to users by BBSes, so that there will be no
license violations when the CD-ROM is used. Are all the
necessary conditions satisfied?"
--(end excerpt)------------------------------------------------

Again, from the author's CONCEPT.DOC we find his goals.

1) "The primary goal of this effort is to automate the handling
of information about distribution restrictions applicable
to various software packages."

2) "The accomplishment of the primary goal implies the
existence of a formal data structure within each
participating product package, containing information about
the product's distribution permissions and restrictions.
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 15 23 Aug 1993

(We'll call this structure VENDINFO.DIZ,.."

3) "Goal three," ... "is to provide automated tools that make
use of the system easy for all classes of user."

4) "Goal four is tentative, but valuable"..."allow a subset of
the VENDINFO information to be appended to executable
programs, and used by the VENDINFO program or even by the
executable program itself, to make decisions about the
distributability of the program."

5) "Goal five"..."to provide, to all affected user classes,
substantial access to both the design process and the
resulting system, while maintaining a single point of
management so its evolution can be controlled and any
security features can be maintained."..."and the form of
distribution of the result (primarily a mix of freeware and
low-cost shareware)."

6) "Goal six"...."the possibility of developing a centralized
registry service, allowing authors to provide just the
VENDINFO.DIZ files for their products, and allowing vendors
to obtain and scan the resulting data collection for the
purpose of updating their product offerrings."

7) "Goal seven"..."if this system is to be successful in the
long term, it is necessary that the developers/maintainers
of the system have the appropriate incentives to continue
their own effort"..."Accordingly, we intend that the
software tools have appropriate, relatively small
registration fees, in order to motivate a serious,
sustained, long-term approach."

Supposedly and apparently, according to the promoter, the shareware
industry, vendors and BBS industry have excitedly endorsed the
VENDINFO plan. A list of BBS producers is given that will support
the project in thier code is give. Fido compatible BBS systems
are conspicuously missing.

To be noted is that the support that is shaping up, is for the most
part, commercial support, where a buck can be had.

Let us, for the fun of it, turn the authors goals inside out. Lets
number them backwards.

1) "we intend that the software tools have appropriate,
relatively small registration fees..."

For anyone to use the system, they must pay the
author. Four different software products (tools) are
conceived.

2) "developing a centralized registry service..."

Author's must also 'register' each of thier products
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 16 23 Aug 1993

they use the system on. Others can obtain or verify
this official central registration.. through the
central service. No fees are mentioned but I can not
imagine one or two people doing what would amount to a
full time job.. for free.

3) "maintaining a single point of management..." and
"security features..."

No one else can maintain or offer use of the system.
Security and management would no doubt be with the
central registry. This make highly doubtful the
central registry would be free to all comers.

4) "a subset of the... information to be appended to
executable programs..." (also mentions commercial
retail executable.)

The system will also be available to be sold to
commercial retail companies who don't want thier
programs circulated a PD or shareware on BBS's.

5) "provide automated tools that make use of the system
easy for all classes of user."

Everyone along the chain will have the opportunity to
purchase a tool to use the system.

6) "the existence of a formal data structure within each
participating product package, containing information
about the product's distribution permissions..."

The feeling that in this system lies the key to who
and what you can legally do with the software.

7) "automate the handling of information about distribution
restrictions applicable to various software packages."

If you don't use this system, you are forced to
manually read the authors license.

The author see's this system of reading an authors shareware
information as replacing most presently used systems and being the
sole source of program information, making any other future
systems, unnecessary.

"It is expected that the VENDINFO.DIZ record will replace the
VENDOR.DOC, SYSOP.DOC, LICENSE.DOC, WARRANTY.DOC, SITELICE.DOC,
FILE_ID.DIZ, and DESC.SDI commonly found in shareware and
public-domain software packages. It may eventually replace
READ-ME.DOC and similar files, as well."

Despite the fact that the author describes this as a work of love..
he gives further reason the system should come into use in his
own "Ramsey's Law", which highlight's his own possible motive of
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 17 23 Aug 1993

profits.

"Every necessary participant in a system must have
predominantly positive incentives for its use, or the
system will fail."

SO EXACTLY WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE?
-------------------------------
What we have is a plan to market a commercial system to shareware
author's, disk vendors and BBS sysops.

What legal worth does it have? None. The author's copyright and
license must still be manually read. No matter what VENDINFO.DIZ
says or how much the author and the sysop paid to use it... what
the author's copyright license says in plain ASCII english is the
only _legal_ document of copyright permissions and restrictions.

What about the CDROM question posed above? Can you know if you can
include an author's software on a CD if you have access to
VENDINFO.DIZ? No. In two ways.

First.. I repeat.. only the author's copyright license has any
legal bearing. Second, because of court cases involving
shareware used on CDROM disks.. any copyright lawyer.. and the
Association of Shareware Professionals advices that if you intend
to include any author's shareware on any CDROM you must contact
the author directly and obtain written permission. VENDINFO.DIZ
then is only an indication that chances are good if you write
this author for permission you will get it.

FURTHER UNSHAREABILITY OF SHAREWARE
-----------------------------------
Recently, legal issues are shaping up to change shareware's
publicly grown and accepted traditional definition from "legal to
copy and share with others" to "try before you buy". In fact, as
far as I know "Try-before-you-buy" is now _the_ legal definition
of commercialized shareware, thanks to some court cases and recent
changes in copyright law. Leave it to lawyers to take a definition
grown out of common usage and traditional acceptance and turn it
around to a purely money definition. Now missleading to the public,
'shareware' no longer even accepts the as shareware programs of
which registration was not mandatory (List, PKZIP, and ARJ). It is
the color of the glasses they wear. The name 'shareware' should be
replaced with 'tryware' or something as it no longer fit's the
primary definition of 'share-able'.

I may be bias. I admit that I have said repeatedly that if you want
to straighten out America you must first fire two thirds of all
lawyers as needless .. and make the rest pledge to truth and
justice before personal profits. Laws should be based on truth and
justice and not by the the game of who can pay gain any profits.

One problem.. in this situation.. is the many media by which
shareware can now be copied and transferred for shareing. Many
of the methods by which programs can be shared and distributed
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 18 23 Aug 1993

now were not foreseen years ago. Are not covered in the
author copyright license. And are by a means and media that
would not exist if it did not make a commercial profit.

At one time, years ago, the means for shareing were basically two
methods. 1) Copy the disk and give it to another. 2) Upload it to a
BBS or on-line service. By far uploading was the more productive.
In both methods the means of distribution were paid for by someone
else rather than the author.. and no one made what could be called
a profit by this media of distribution (except for major on-line
services who were the cause of many registrations for the author).

Today exist such commercial means of distribution and shareing of
shareware far beyond hand to hand copying and uploading to a BBS.
Today exist the inexpensive CDROM which a sysop can plug into his
BBS for users to download from. Organized file distribution,
organized and paid for by dedicated fido sysops. Satellite and
Internet availability, ham radio transfers, micro wave and you name
it - it is coming on the horizon.

How has the new means of shareing and distribution been treated?
Lawyers have seen to it that if a specific media and method of
distribution is not specifically given permission to by the author
in his copyright license.. and that means or media makes money for
someone, then if that means is used, the author can sue for
copyright infringements. It has already been done and has set the
precedents.

The new VENDINFO.DIZ proposes to take this further in a binary
coded file of information based on a document (55 pages long) of
proposed structure. Taking this method of trying to cover every
conceivable distribution permission, type and possible answer. By
the shear size of the results can not reasonable be done in
every-body-can-use-it-ASCII. It must be done in size saving binary.
Yet it could be done in every-body-can-use-it-binary? instead of
the proposed proprietary-you-pay-me-to-use-binary. As new methods
of on-line connectivity come into being at a rapid pace - VENDINFO
must grow and grow and beome more complicated at the same time the
trend by lawyers is to make the 'try-before-you-buy' liscence more
and more complicated.

So there are three things I do not like about VENDINFO.

1) It appears to be primarily a commercial plan.

2) It further distances shareware into legal-mine-field-ware.

3) It treats the BBS world as if it is only commercial for-profit
systems

4) Fidonets 23k sysops will have not uses for YADF (yet another
description file).
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 19 23 Aug 1993

Introducing RockNet!
By Steve Powell (1:374/777)

RockNet is about music. It is for musicians and fans alike, and its
purpose is discussions on all phases of music, including record
reviews, videos, recording techniques, theory and notation, concerts,
buying and selling stereos, CD's, tapes, etc. and chit-chat about
the kinds of music that YOU LIKE.

There are *NO* so-called "adult" areas.

RockNet is not =really= another network, at least in the sense of
dealing with a separate nodelist, just a set of (presently 16)
independant, music-related echoes distributed under a common banner.

Here are the areas, so far:

R_ALTERNATIVE Alternative and psychedelia
R_BOOGIE All types of southern rock
R_CONCERT Gig notices, including major concerts, clubs, etc.
R_METAL All kinds of hard rock
R_NEWAGE New Age music
R_PROFESSIONAL Concerns of the professional musician
R_REFERRAL Musicians and bands-wanted ads
R_REVIEW Record reviews
R_SALE Music goods for sale
R_SOFT Soft rock and easy listening
R_SUGGEST Suggestions for making RockNet a better place
R_SYSOP Restricted to RockNet sysops
R_TALK RockNet general chit-chat area
R_TECHNOLOGY Equipment and music software
R_THEORY Music theory and notation
R_VIDEO Music videos and production

For uplink information, send netmail to 1:374/777 and we'll set
you up. Let's ROCK!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The ANSi Phallicy...
Formation of an ANSi ART conference
by Brian Rider THE iCE DEPARTMENT BBS (1:2470/12@FidoNet)
Frost Byte THE iCE DEPARTMENT BBS (119:119/0@WyldNet)

To start off, please stay alert to this document, there are numerous
spelling, and grammar mistakes, for every one you find please award
yourself a hardy handshake and 2 pats on the back. I am not follower
of "high" english, nor am I a ancient philosopher. Disclaimer off.

How many conferences allow the posting of ANSi? Well, to the best of
my knowledge there is but one conference, BBS_ADS. I would like to say
THANK YOU to Bob Johnstone, (moderator) to having the insight to
allowing to graphics, however even his hands are tied because the
screens still need to follow the topic of the conference. However, BBS
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 20 23 Aug 1993

ADs are not the only type of ANSi art there is, trust me.

You might be getting the hint as to what this article is about now...
and your assumption is correct, I am trying to push a ANSi art confer-
ence. Many people may gasp that this cannot be done in Fido... ANSi is
bad juju!! Well to clue everyone else that just looks at this with
ignorance to the topic, allow me to enlighten you.

It seems to be the majorities idea that ANSi is bad for echomail.
Others have the idea that ANSi will screw up their system. Even others
may still wonder what ANSi is. (covering all standpoints) Well to
disprove these phallicies, ANSi can in NO way harm ECHOMAIL bases if
you are running proper software. There are NUMEROUS programs that
disable the supposed ANSi bugs. Also many of the major software
programs use their own ANSi drivers, and are immune. For the people
that believe that ANSi will screw up their system, well it may, I am
not placing a gun to your head TELLING you to pick up this conference,
there is still some software that does not support ANSi in the message
conferences. Then this conference is then not for you. ANSi is the
crude colors that you see over many of the telecommunications services,
which when welded by certain people can become truly ART!

This conference is for people who are ANSi artists, who want to be
artists, who just want to sit back and enjoy the screens, or people
who just want to chat about ANSi. At first, I did not believe that
this was going to be a realistic idea to start this conference,
honestly how many people out there do ANSi screens... A GREAT DEAL
after looking at some of the other networks, GT POWER, WWiV, and even
some of the smaller nets have very active ANSi conferences for example.

To request this conference, ANSI_ART please netmail Brian Rider @
1:2470/12 stating a areafix Password, and I will have you hooked up
ASAP. Expect to see it have a slower start than a normal conference,
due to this being seamlessly unexplored territory.

Brian
Frost Byte..
Freq magicname ANSi from 1:2470/12 for proposed rules for conference,
you will notice them to be very lax.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Compression again
By:Kristian.Stark
(1:260/[email protected] -- Shark's Basin BBS)

Ok... I've just about had it with this discussion on archive formats
and the like, but..

Just the same, I feel compelled to continue on in the discussion, for
the enlightenment of people perhaps... *grin*

I think we can all come to an agreement about ARC as a compression
method - it is slow, inefficient, and in general, quite useless
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 21 23 Aug 1993

as a compression format when compared to newer compression programs.
BUT, and this is a really big but, it is an accepted standard. Now,
before you all start yelling at me about established standards,
hear me out.

The latest FidoNews included an article about how standards have to
be flexible and accommodating to new technology - and I wholly agree
with this. And, if you continue to read this, I think you will too
- at least to some extent.

I have been a member of FidoNet for about 7 years now, under
different node numbers in different parts of the world. Until
recently, almost all my expriences with Fido were from the standard
MS-DOS standpoint - I had a DOS machine handy, and the software to
run a node for it. This has recently changed. I still have access
to a DOS machine (in fact, this is the same machine that I use now)
but I do not run my node under DOS anymore. However, to the rest of
the Fido community, there should have been no obvious change. Yes,
my message headers and kludge lines are a bit different, and if you
were to poll me (during ZMH only!) you would notice that I have Binkley
answering the phone instead of FD as I did before.

Why the change? I moved from DOS to run Linux as my primary operating
system, and along with that came all of my FidoNet stuff...

Still with me? Or are you way ahead of me? I do not have PKZIP
available for my system. Yes, I do have other utilities, most notably
the Info-ZIP version of zip and unzip available, and I make good use of
them. My mail goes out to my point and hub using zip compressed
archives, and I receive them the same way. However, I am but one node
using software running under an OS other then DOS. How many other
people are there in the world running a FidoNet system that does not
run DOS? I would hazard a guess that it is a significant portion, and
I would also guess that it is increasing as time goes on.

Now, consider this. OS/2 does not have (somebody correct me if I am
wrong here) a version of PKZIP available for it. There is a good
alternative, once again Info-ZIP. MacOS does not have a ZIP archver
for it. Linux uses Info-ZIP. Some DOS machines use Info-ZIP. VMS
has a version of Info-ZIP. Get my drift?

ARC, on the other hand, has been around for years. Something that has
been hanging around in the dust for the most part, but on some systems
that is really the only way to transfer information from one
architecture to another in a compressed form. On all the systems that I
have used, I've been able to find a copy of Arc somewhere. Maybe not a
compiled run-time version, but I can't recall a system for which I have
not been able to find the source code for and been able to compile it.
(Well, with the exception of some of the *real* old hardware I've played
with.)

So, I guess the explanation for the use of Arc as a standard is quite
well justified - almost everyone can process it. In the few cases
where people cannot use arc, another mutually acceptible form has been
found by the people for whom this is a problem.
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 22 23 Aug 1993

FidoNet is supposed to be a community of computer users - not a
community of DOS users - remember that we have to be able to talk to
each other regardless of our different systems.

Ok, so now that all of that is out of the way, I would like to make a
proposal:

A feasibility study
===================

The Info-ZIP code has been ported to a large number of systems, and
can be compiled for almost any platform, from what I can tell. I
may be wrong, but from what I've seen, it is one of the most portable
of the compression programs available to the community at large.

I would like to propose that everybody start looking into getting a
copy of the program for their machine, and start using that instead
of PKZIP. Nothing against PKWare - they make a good product, and one
that I have used for quite a while... However, for portability,
Info-ZIP is far better.

As I said before, it is available for a large number of platforms,
including MS-DOS, OS/2, several varieties of Unix, VAX/VMS (OpenVMS)
etc. I cannot say about the availability of the program for the Mac,
but I suspect that somebody could fairly easily make a port.

Why? If we really want to make a change int he archiving metheod (and
the savings in transmission size / time would seem to warrant that)
we are the ones with the burden of proof to find a package that is
compatible across different platforms.

So... If you have an OS that you think you cannot get a copy of
Info-ZIP for, please let me know, and I'll do some digging around.
Maybe we will be able to come together with a new compression standard.
However, for the time being we are stuck with ARC, and quite honestly,
I don't want to hear another word about the proposed change until a
viable option that is acceptible to *ALL* nodes can be found.

I retire now, ducking to avoid being broiled... :-)

Kris
(1:260/[email protected] -- Shark's Basin BBS)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Take it to Iran, boys

Greetings, Jack.

'Saw your article in FidoNews and could not agree more. In
contemporary America the intrusion of religious superstitions into
the secular public institutions is a difficult and costly problem
to combat.
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 23 23 Aug 1993

It's faintly annoying that we must also see it presented in our
hobbies.

The battles waged between warring religious factions is disgusting
when observe by the critically thinking atheistical populace. That
people would consider the debate about what drives the aliens space
ships (or choose your own metaphore) to be reasonable is the height
of silly. That they would fight among each other in environments
where no one but the combatants cares about what drives the alien
space ships is the height of annoying.

I would not mind seeing both the charasmatic cult moderator (Steve
Winter, by name) and the "hide over here" moderator out of
FidoNews. Editor, however, publishes everything recieved -- and
rightly so. The onus is upon the cult leader and the "hide here"
moderator to realize how they appear (and why they _should_ care
how they appear) and for them to take it somewhere else.

Like Iran, maybe? <smile>

IHS,
Reverend Fredric Rice.

: Fredric Rice - via mcws.fidonet.org Public Access (213)256-8371
: ARPA/INTERNET: [email protected]
: UUCP: ...!{elroy,oxy}!mcws!890!Fredric.Rice
: Compu$erve: >internet:[email protected]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

TIMES HAVEN'T CHANGED MUCH
by Jack Decker

I was just reading Fidonews Vol.10 No.32 and came across this little
all-too-familiar blurb:

> PRIME and HOLY_BIBLE, The Wholly Bible Echo
> Steve Winter
> FidoNet 1:18/98

> Those who want false christianity or a visit with infidels certainly
> have several networks and echos available, but if any are interested
> in "non-compromised" Apostolic Christianity, I encourage you to check
> out PRIME. As far as the reprobate oneness nets go, I believe the
> Lord allready rated them just a tad below a dunghill.

[remainder of article deleted]

I had rather hoped that with new editors of Fidonews, this recurring
advertisement would not be allowed, or at least the writer would be
required to tone down his language a bit. It strikes me as odd that
you can make comments like this about members of certain faiths and
no one says a word. I wonder what the response would have been had
the same sort of language been used to describe those of a particular
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 24 23 Aug 1993

race, national origin, gender, etc.? I suspect that in some
countries it might have caused this issue of Fidonews to go into the
bit bucket, since redistribution might well have violated some "hate
crimes" legislation that exists in other jurisdictions.

There are a couple things you should remember about any religious
cult (I am NOT calling Mr. Winter's group a cult, but I will leave it
to the reader to decide if there are similarities!). One is that
virtually all of them insist that theirs is the ONLY group that God
approves of. Even if their entire group consists of twenty people
and was founded only three months ago, they believe that everyone
else (including most everyone who has died before they arrived on the
scene) is going straight to Hell. I personally do believe that there
is a Hell to be feared, but I seriously doubt that the way out is SO
narrow that only members of one small sect are going to find it. And
besides, as any Christian familiar with the parable of the wheat and
the tares realizes, it is very dangerous for mere mortals to sit in
judgement of how God feels about others.

The other thing is that cults usually have a strong leader who does
not take kindly to opposing viewpoints (I am rather understating
this, but if you recall the recent events in Waco, Texas you
hopefully get my drift. That was an extreme case, but still...).

Now, when Steve Winter was sending longer articles to Fidonews
explaining his beliefs last year, I wrote an article entitled
"Bashing the Beliefs of Others in FidoNews", which I had hoped was a
reasoned rebuttal of some of Mr. Winter's articles. Following
publication of that article, most of the netmail I received was
favorable. The sole exception was what in my opinion was an
extremely venomous netmail message from Steve Winter himself. I will
quote only the first paragraph, since it sort of summarizes his
response:

"I believe that you are the false christian who posted the
lies in the recent FidoNews. I can certainly understand
why false christian filth are offended by the truth that
exposes them as deceiving scum. Your cult is a putrid
stench in the nostrils of God."

Now, that would have been bad enough, but in spite of the
inflammatory language used (which I'd hardly consider "Christian"), I
tried to send him a reasoned response by netmail, one that I'd spent
quite a bit of time writing. But when I tried to send the message,
it came back to me, bounced by "MBounce V1.00". The first line of
the bounce message said, "The following message was refused at the
above address" and it came from Mr. Winter's address (which was also
in the MSGID line of the bounce message). So apparently Mr. Winter
felt that he could blast everyone else's beliefs (in both Fidonews
and Netmail), but insulate himself from any replies using a robot
bouncer. Draw your own conclusions.

To top everything off, Mr. Winter filed a Policy Complaint against
me, and seemed to very much want to have me kicked out of Fidonet (I
think because I complained about his robot bouncer, but who knows the
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 25 23 Aug 1993

real reason). In any case, the complaint was dismissed, which made
him even more upset. I won't go into all the details, but the whole
incident, in my opinion, painted Mr. Winter in a very unChristian
light.

The bottom line, again in my opinion, is that Mr. Winter is sowing
the seeds of hatred against those who do not believe _precisely_ as
he does. While I'm sure that he can pick Bible verses out of context
to justify his behaviour (while ignoring entire chapters such as
Romans 14), I would hope that the editors of Fidonews would not be
inclined to let him preach essentially the same message on a
semi-regular basis (by running the same "ad" over and over).

Since I no longer have a presence in Fidonet, maybe my opinion on
this doesn't count. But given the netmail I received last year, I
know there are many others who feel the same way.

By the way, just in closing (and on a totally different topic), I
want to agree with the comment from Stanton McCandlish (and similar
comments that have been expressed by others) about the size of the
nodelist. One of the reasons I finally disconnected from Fidonet was
due to the size of the Nodelist. This is another of those technical
problems that folks have tried to solve using political means, and it
hasn't worked (well, the Germans did manage to achieve a significant
reduction in their part of the nodelist, but at what cost?!). The
funny part is that those who defend retaining ARC as the compression
method always say they are doing it for those using the "oddball"
(usually older) machine that can't use any other form of unarchiver,
yet many of those older machines have limited storage capacity, and
may well choke on the sheer size of the nodelist long before the
compression method becomes a problem, at the rate things are going.

I said "way back when" that authors of software intended to be used
in Fidonet ought to design their software with the idea that someday,
not every valid node in Fidonet would be listed in the nodelist.
Nobody listened. So now people are starting to look and say "You
mean I'm using four or five megs of precious disk space just for
nodelists!?!" and still we don't seem any closer to a solution.
Strange... but, alas, true.

Jack Decker - Internet address: [email protected]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The rest of the story (re "WHOLLY_BIBLE")
Steve Winter
FidoNet 1:18/98

I have come to regard Mark Wilson 1:379/1108 as a rather brazen
liar. I hope that by my offering some facts, you might better
understand why I am of that opinion.

I believe that anyone reading the elist is well aware that
the HOLY_BIBLE echo has been called "The Wholly Bible echo"
for years. Mr Wilson stole the name for his echo tag from
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 26 23 Aug 1993

my published echo description.

Also his echo made it to the backbone AMAZINGLY FAST and remains
there through what I feel is corruption and dishonesty among some
of the upper *ECs.

In last week's FNEWS Mr Wilson stated regarding his echo:

MW>question. At any rate the reason that this echo was started, was due
MW>to a netmail that arrived at my hub and at my NC simultaneously
MW>requesting that I be cut from any links to a particular Bible
MW>discussion echo. Now what was particularly troubling to me was that I
MW>was not even linked to the echo, and had never been, so I appealed to

What Mr Wilson failed to mention is that he had been a member of
my PRIME network and had just been kicked off because of (among
other things) his heretical teaching that Israel was the "Great
Whore" in the book of Revelations.

I simply sent a note to make sure that he was also cut from
my HOLY_BIBLE echo as well. Do you see his statement in a different
light now? That is part of why I regard him as a deceiver.

He also said:

MW> new Bible discussion echo, and upon finding two others, we
MW> jointly started the echo that is called Wholly_Bible.

Here is another interesting thing. The two that he "found" had
just been kicked off of PRIME and HOLY_BIBLE because of disruptive
behaviour and in general being deceiving religious filth. Now
these guys did everything in their power to sleaze around and
try to steal my HOLY_BIBLE echo, including frivilous policy
complaints and netmail to most if not all *RCs, ZC, etc.

When they could not steal the echo itself, they decided to steal
the name from my echo description.

So here we have a "supposed" oneness "christian" joining himself
with a couple of trinitarians to steal an echo name and then be
granted favors from certain false christian *EC(s). Their echo
was rushed to the backbone. (while legitimate echos wait in line).

MW> Moderators: Mark Wilson, 1:379/[email protected]
MW> Scott McCool, 1:291/[email protected]
MW> Dave Wright, 1:395/[email protected]

When they couldn't steal the echo, they just stole the description
name. Don't believe me??? Dig out an old copy of the Echolist.
Many BBSs have had my HOLY_BIBLE echo with the description
"Wholly Bible" for a long time now.

Dave Wright was engaging me in friendly conversation on PRIME while
he was secretly netmailing the *C structure to try to steal HOLY_BIBLE.
One of them was kind enough to cc me a copy and that was how I
FidoNews 10-34 Page: 27 23 Aug 1993

found out about Mr Wright's activities.

I hope that I have been eloquent enough that you will at least
understand why it is my true belief that these guys are a bunch
of lying, thieving, reprobate deceivers.

I do not mean to imply that anyone does not have the right to
start any kind of echo that they want, but stealing an echo name,
and jumping to the head of the line to the backbone is another
matter. (not to mention brazen lying)

Steve Winter 1:18/98 moderator/founder HOLY_BIBLE(the WHOLLY BIBLE echo)

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