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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, March 27, 1990  10:00 pm eastern time
Topic:  Micol Advanced BASIC
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)

AFL Dyfet  Okay, I think we will get started for tonight...Good evening
          everyone, and
AFL Dyfet  welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.  Tonight we will be
          discussing
HeadCase   Mike how did you get the little speaker?
AFL Dyfet  Micol Basic, and we have a very special guest from Micol Systems
          with us here.
Micol Sys  Hi Mike! Glad you could be gere tonight!
AFL Dyfet  We will be using PROTOCOL tonight starting NOW.  This means that
          if you wish
AFL Dyfet  to ask a question, simply enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if
          you wish to
WAUC Jeff  hello
AFL Dyfet  comment on the current question being discussed, enter a '!' on a
          line by
AFL Dyfet  itself.  You will each be called in turn.  Before we begin, I
          would like to
AFL Dyfet  now turn the floor over to our guest, so that he may have an
          opertunity to
AFL Dyfet  introduce himself.  Go ahead, Ron, you have the floor now :)
Micol Sys  Hi all!
Micol Sys  I'm here tonight to answer
Micol Sys  all your questions about Micol Advanced BASIC...
Micol Sys  as a short overview...
Micol Sys  let me just say, there are two versions, one for the GS, and
          another for
Micol Sys  the IIe/c (w/128k).  Both version use the full capabilities of the
          machine
Micol Sys  it was designed to run on, and offer far more than Applesoft, and
          many other
Micol Sys  compiled languages offer.
Micol Sys  Micol Advanced BASIC takes the best features of Pascal and C and
          combine them
Micol Sys  with the easy and flexibility of BASIC that you've all grown
          accustomed to.
Micol Sys  Which means that, unlike using Pascal and C, you can get all the
          programming
Micol Sys  power of a modern language, without having to start learning how
          to program
Micol Sys  all over again from scratch.  You can build on your BASIC
          knowledge, instead
Micol Sys  of throwing it away.
Micol Sys  I'd now like to answer all of your questions... so  please fire
          away!
WAUC Jeff  this really is not a question
WAUC Jeff  but I would like to know what is the queue of people who will be
          here
WAUC Jeff  this evening....that is all that I need to know  GA
Micol Sys  I don't understand
BLACKSHEEP !
Micol Sys  I have no control over who will be here tonight
Micol Sys  GA
WAUC Jeff  was wondering what the schedule it for who is presenting
Micol Sys  I am presenting, Jeff... My name is Ron Lewin, and my company is
          Micol Systems,
WAUC Jeff  Ok ....sorry maybe this was not a questionthat could be answered
Micol Sys  publishers of Micol Advanced BASIC
Micol Sys  GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, go ahead Blacksheep...
WAUC Jeff  i guess I just wanted to know what was planned...ok  never mind my
          question
BLACKSHEEP Will your program expand graph. and memory usage to the full
          amount of
BLACKSHEEP your computer?
AFL Dyfet  A question snuck in as a comment :)
Micol Sys  Yes...
Micol Sys  if you have a GS... there are built in commands which allow you
          to
Micol Sys  use to Super Hires Graphics, and programs you create
Micol Sys  with Micol Advanced BASIC (MAB, for short) will automatically use
          the full
Micol Sys  memory of your GS... that means you can have programs and arrays
          up to 8 megs.
BLACKSHEEP Great! Thanks. Done.
Micol Sys  If you have a IIe/c, MAB-e/c will use the full capabilities of
          that machine,
Micol Sys  for instance, 560x190 resolution (max), 16 colors (max), and
Micol Sys  your programs can be up to 74k... twice what Applesoft allows.
          GA
Micol Sys  plus built in sound commands for each
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Scott, you have the floor now...
AFL Scott  For those of us who just purchased Micol Advanced BASIC, can you
          tell us some
AFL Scott  of the programs we may have seen that were written with it?  Also,
          can you tell
AFL Scott  us some of the real advantages of MAB over other dialects of GS
          specific
AFL Scott  basic?
AFL Scott  GA
Micol Sys  whew...
Micol Sys  ok... there have been many programs, both commercial and PD that
          have been
Micol Sys  written with MAB... I know that Tom Snyder publishes software
          written with MAB,
Micol Sys  as well as Britannica Software... MAB is ideal for developers
          because it
Micol Sys  makes it easier for them to bring their software which was written
          using
Micol Sys  structured compilers on other computers over to the Apple II
          line.
Micol Sys  Also, because of source code compatibility between the IIe/c
          version and
Micol Sys  the GS version, you can write one program, which when compiled
          under each
Micol Sys  version, produces a ProDOS 8 program for the IIe and a GS/OS
          program for GS,
Micol Sys  so they can hit the entire Apple II market at once.
Micol Sys  You'll also fine Mike Yost's Ballistics program (good game) here
          on AO,
Micol Sys  which was written using MAB, and I've seen a few adventure
          programs written
Micol Sys  with MAB.  Alot of specific purpse stuff (like data aquisition
          software(
Micol Sys  has been written using MAB.
AFL Scott  Great, {S Thanks} Done.
Micol Sys  As far as advantages over other GS BASIC compilers...
Micol Sys  there are many, such as the speed...
BillP      a:)
Micol Sys  the flexibility...
Micol Sys  and especially, the support.  You don't see them here, do you?
Micol Sys  GA
AFL Scott  Nope!:)
AFL Scott  Thanks, Ron!:)
AFL Dyfet  I gather that the IIgs version uses the same core graphics
          commands as the 8
AFL Dyfet  bit version.  Is there full support for the toolbox in the IIgs
          version?
Micol Sys  Yes and Yes...
AFL Dyfet  Best of both worlds then :)
Micol Sys  both use HPLOT, for instance, to draw lines...
Micol Sys  there may be some changes needed due to the different resolutions
          of the
Micol Sys  screens, and the lack of the toolbox on the IIe to do some
          graphics functions.
Micol Sys  The GS version has full Toolbox support two ways:
Micol Sys  1) With built in commands like WINDOW, MOUSE and MENU, which
          access tools for
Micol Sys  you...
Micol Sys  and 2) Through a generic TOOLBOX command, which allows you to
          access ANY tool
Micol Sys  you like, so if there's any toolbox out there (such as custom
          tools),
Micol Sys  you can call it yourself... and if Apple introduces new toolboxes,
          you can
AFL Scott  !
Micol Sys  call them manually, too.  I believe AC/BASIC lacks such a feature,
          locking you
Micol Sys  into the toolbox calls which they support.  GA
BillP      Hi Joey  {S applause }
A GibberFC Joe {S Excellent}
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA Scott...
JSchober   [ :), hi all, {S Thanks!} ]
AFL Scott  Ron, mention that you can enhance readability of programs that use
          the toolbox
AFL Scott  by defining variables for tool calls that you use.  I think it
          would help
AFL Scott  people understand just how the toolbox is supported.  Thanks,
          Done!:)
Micol Sys  Ok...
Micol Sys  with the generic TOOLBOX command...
Micol Sys  you call it using this format TOOLBOX
          (Toolboxnumber,Toolnumber....)
Micol Sys  you can customize it by using variable names
Micol Sys  such as:
Micol Sys  TOOLBOX (Quick_Draw%, Fill_Rectangle%: Rectangle_Number%)
Micol Sys  which makes your toolbox calls very readable.
Micol Sys  Really, this is a technical issue which would take a bit longer to
          explain,
Micol Sys  so I'll just say that basically (pun, pun) Micol Advanced BASIC
          programs
Micol Sys  are far more easy to read and understand than your average BASIC
          programs.
Micol Sys  which makes it easier to debug, and modify at a later date.  GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe Tamira is next...GA Tams...
Tamira     2 ques really.....How well does it work on the IIc and will the
          support be as
Tamira     good for the IIc as for the IIe and GS
Micol Sys  the answer to both those questions is:
Micol Sys  {S EXCELLENT}
Micol Sys  ;)
Tamira     I am planning to expand my IIc and this seems like a beneficiall
          piece of soft
JSchober   (omigosh!)
Tamira     ware I was wondering if it is as good as it sounds
Tamira     GA  SORRY
Micol Sys  Micol Advanced BASIC is even better than it sounds  ;)
Tamira     :(
Micol Sys  on the IIc...
Micol Sys  you get to use lots of features that Applesoft never allowed you
          to.
RMY        I agree, better!!
Micol Sys  Remember, Applesoft is now over 11 years old, and was never
          designed for
Micol Sys  today's Apple II, and does not contain any features standard in a
          modern
Micol Sys  programming language.  One BIG benefit of the MAB over Applesoft
          is that
Micol Sys  you  get a integrated full screen editor, like a word processor,
          and when
Micol Sys  MAB encounters an error in your program, it returns you to the
          editor, with
Micol Sys  the cursor over the place in file where the error occured.  Plus,
          it lets
Micol Sys  you write programs twice as large and many times faster than
          Applesoft on
Micol Sys  the IIc.
Micol Sys  The support for both machines is equal.  Believe it or not, the
          IIe/c product
A2GS       BRB
Micol Sys  is actually NEWER than the GS product.  We thought MAB GS was so
          good, we
Micol Sys  said, heck! why not make a IIe/c version... and so we took MABGS
          and
Micol Sys  converted it to work on the IIe/c.  It's a new product, and you
          can count
Micol Sys  on our support.  GA
AFL Dyfet  How efficiant a compiler is MAB on the IIe or IIc?  Some basic
          compilers are
Tamira     when will it be available???
AFL Dyfet  notorious for the size of their runtime and code they genorate :)
          ?
Micol Sys  It is available NOW
Micol Sys  Code generation is VERY efficient...
Tamira     great!!!!  sorry that's all
Micol Sys  Micol systems believes in the highest levels of efficiency
          possible... that's
Micol Sys  why MAB was written ENTIRELY in assembly, on a IIgs.  Not ported
          from another
Micol Sys  computer as many compilers often are.
Micol Sys  GA
Coach101   Is there support in MAB for subroutines written in other languages
          and
Coach101   compiled/assembled independant of MAB?
Micol Sys  GA?
AFL Dyfet  I think so, Ron...
Micol Sys  Yes...
Micol Sys  MAB allows you to link in machine language programs/routines...
Micol Sys  with a few conditions:
Micol Sys  on the IIe version, the code must be in a special format (so it
          can be
Micol Sys  relocated), although you can BLOAD any routine and CALL it to get
          around that.
Micol Sys  on the GS, the code must use our special FASTLOAD file format to
          be linked in..
Micol Sys  currently, our own assembler (which we offer to MAB owners at a
          reduced price)
Micol Sys  is the only one which will currently generate these files, but we
          have
Micol Sys  supplied the file format to Glen Bredon, so he can implement it in
          Merlin 16.'
Micol Sys  GA
Coach101   Is there any plans for an OMF to FastLoad converter?
Micol Sys  Not really... our devlepment resources are currently tied up with
          other
Micol Sys  projects, and such a converter would be somewhat difficult.  GA
Coach101   Thank you, done.  GA
AFL Dyfet  On the IIe/c version, is the relocatable format the same as Apple
          EDASM 'REL',
AFL Dyfet  or something entirely different?
Micol Sys  Something entirely different... simpler... we just ask that
          you...
Micol Sys  put your actual machine language program at the top, followed by
          $00 00,
Micol Sys  followed by your data.  The linker handles relocating your program
          for you,
Micol Sys  and leaves the data alone.
Micol Sys  GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA A2...
A2GS       I hope Ron won't mind if I break away from this all important
          topic....
A2GS       ...Micol Basic....
Micol Sys  Micol Advanced BASIC
Micol Sys  we have an older 8 bit product called Micol BASIC, and I don't
          want to confuse
Micol Sys  anybody
A2GS       Excuse Me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  MICOL ADVANCED
          BASIC!!!!!!!!!!
A2GS       :)
Micol Sys  into thinking that the old product (Micol BASIC) offers all these
          neat features
AFL Dyfet  What is your question, A2?
A2GS       I have 3 short technical questions which I hope somebody may be
          able to answer.
Micol Sys  Let's hear 'em
Micol Sys  but make it quick... some people are paying for this, and want MAB
          info
A2GS       1)  I assembled a program with Merlin 16+ running on a 5.0 based
          disk...
A2GS       but the program won't work when I try running it from a 4.0 sys.
          disk...Why??
A2GS       Anyone?
AFL Dyfet  Lots of possible reasons, depending on what tools you are using
          and what it
AFL Dyfet  does...
RMY        Did you use any 5.0-specific tool calls, or did the Merlin library
          use any?
A2GS       Does not use any tools....
Micol Sys  That's a pretty large question
AFL Dyfet  Yes, it is, and could probably best be answered in one of the
          message base
AFL Dyfet  areas...
AFL Dyfet  What were #2 and 3, A2?
A2GS       #2
A2GS       ...
A2GS       Never mind 2....
A2GS       onto 3....What is a Dot File??
AFL Dyfet  What do you mean by dot file?
A2GS       Supposedly the New Orca assembler has Dot File Support...What the
          heck is that?
A2GS       Anyone?  No one?
Coach101   I have no idea what they are talking about
AFL Dyfet  I think I do...
AFL Scott  Nor do I
Micol Sys  Sounds like a question for the Byteworks area in Industry
          Connection.  Next!'
A2GS       I'm done....Sorry for the interruption Ron...I didn't think the
          Q's were that
A2GS       long.
AFL TimB   Does Micol plan a booth at Applefest (sorry if this has already
          been answered).
AFL Dyfet  Perhaps he means support for 'device' names, such as .d1/, in
          paths, which,
AFL Dyfet  under the old ProDOS scheme, were illegal...
Micol Sys  Well, Tim...
AFL Scott  {S Brb|
AFL TimB   Yes, Ron...
Micol Sys  at this time, No.  That's because we've had some disagreements in
          the past
Micol Sys  when we've attended Applefest... Namely, having our booth, which
          was
A2GS       Could be, but that's a weird name for it....never heard the term
          used before.
Micol Sys  right beside Apple, moved on us, because APDA decided at the last
          minute it
Micol Sys  wanted to go, and it wanted a booth beside Apple... so Cambridge
          gave them
Micol Sys  ours.  Also, our blimp got put through the trash compactor, which
          is a long
Micol Sys  story which I'll be glad to tell after the conference.
AFL TimB   I feel that your presence, along with some other developers, at
          Applefest....
Micol Sys  We still might go, however.
AFL Dyfet  Neither have I, A2...I am sorry to hear about your past
          difficulties with
AFL TimB   is important to the Apple II's future.
AFL TimB   /done
AFL Dyfet  Cambridge, Ron...and hope you do change your mind too...
Tamira     !
RMY        Agree... Ron should go!
AFL TimB   We'll keep you entertained Ron. ;)
AFL Dyfet  GA Tams...
Micol Sys  True, AFL, but we have conflicts with CMI which are not just going
          to disappear
Tamira     I just wanted to say that I heard that A Fest in NJ
Micol Sys  becuase it would be better for the Apple II community... I agree
          it would be
Tamira     is going to be more just computer fest cause Apple does not
          consider it a
Micol Sys  better if we were there, but sometimes we must make decisions like
          this.
Tamira     national show just regional
AFL TimB   Agreed Ron. :)
DangardAce {S Boing}
Micol Sys  GA
Tamira     and is not planning to go
DangardAce {S Goahead}
Tamira     ga
SkySinger  Can you tell me where I can get complete descriptions of both
          versions of MAB?
Micol Sys  Sure can... in two places...
Micol Sys  1) If you go into Let's Discuss in Apple II Developer's Forum, and
          enter the
Micol Sys  Programming Environments topic, you'll find a folder called Micol
          Advanced
Micol Sys  BASIC.  The first 10 messages in the folder give plenty of
          description, and
Micol Sys  the next 40 messages are questions and answers.
Micol Sys  Also, if you go into the Software Libraries in Apple II
          Developer's Forum,
Micol Sys  and select the "Applications" library, you'll find a demo disk for
          Micol
Micol Sys  Advanced BASIC GS which you can download which gives you lots of
          info and
Micol Sys  shows what MAB can do.  GA
SkySinger  Thanks, I'll check it out.  GA
RMY        Demo disk is awesome!!
Tamira     what about demo for IIc
Micol Sys  Especially the DeskTop part, Mike ;)
Micol Sys  No demo for the IIc, sorry...
AFA Gary J If I ordered MAB for my IIGS, would I get a program that would
          let me produce
Tamira     :(
Micol Sys  becuase the GS demo makes extensive use of the Tools
AFA Gary J code for the IIe/IIc as WELL as the IIGS, or would I have to
          purchase a
AFA Gary J separate compiler for the IIe/IIc machines?
Micol Sys  They are seperate products, Gary...
Micol Sys  MAB GS runs under GS/OS and produces full blown 16 bit GS/OS
          apps.
Micol Sys  MAB-e/c runs under ProDOS 8 and produces 65C02 code meant to run
          under ProDOS 8
Micol Sys  however, we do offer a nice discount to people who want both.
Micol Sys  GA
AFA Gary J Thanks!
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Go ahead Sky...
SkySinger  I take it that MAB IIe could be used on a GS and that the finished
          code would
SkySinger  run on a GS, a IIe or a IIc?
Micol Sys  Absolutely correct. GA
SkySinger  Thanks GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, do we have any more Micol Advanced Basic questions
          tonight?
AFA Gary J What's the list price of the products?
Micol Sys  Ok....
Tamira     yes where can I get it???
Micol Sys  Micol Advanced BASIC GS sells for $145 list...
Micol Sys  Micol Advanced BASIC IIe/c sells for $89.95, which we feel is and
          exceptional
Micol Sys  value.
Micol Sys  You can order directly from us here on AO...
Micol Sys  by sending mail to MICOL SYS with your VISA/MC #, your address,
          and which
Micol Sys  products you would like.  As a special deal for
Micol Sys  everybody here tonight, you can get both products
Micol Sys  for $199.95.
Tamira     savings of $35
Micol Sys  GA
AFL Dyfet  With shipping?? :)
Micol Sys  Shipping is $5 extra... sorry
Tamira     maybe if you are nice he will GIVE you one David  :)
Micol Sys  but since I forget, we'll pay shipping
Micol Sys  so $199.95  flat
RMY        US$?
Micol Sys  of course, Mike

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