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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
August 22, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: GS/OS and System Software 5.0
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Hello Parik!
AFA Parik does anyone know what the maximum size of a segment can be?
JimMensch yes, code segment max is 64K
AFA Parik MM gives a error if a segment is 65536 bytes...$201
AFL Dyfet If you like 3 byte zero page pointers, your data can be as large
as you want :)
JimMensch all other segments can be as large as you want
AFL Dyfet Well, I see some people are starting to filter in...
Coach101 Montagne, ever come up with any leads on 65536 unclaimed
interrupts?
AFL Dyfet We will be officially starting in a minute or two, Scotty :)
Montagne No proof, if that's want you mean.
AFL Dyfet I've had mixed experiances with 6551 uarts myself...
Coach101 My, and Dyfet's (I think), suspicion is that extraneous
interrupts
Coach101 are not being handled correctly by ALPE or AWGS.... 4.0 did
not
Coach101 seem to care but 5.0 is picky...
JimMensch the interupt manager now cares more about unclaimed interupts...
JimMensch it thinks they are a bad idea...
AFL Dyfet I'm sure there are reasons for this new pickyness...perhaps
related to getting
AFL Dyfet us to dyna-slot arbitration and interrupt support from switched
slots??? :)
Montagne Actually, it has nothing to do with dynamic slot arbitration.
Bernard How do you rename a volume with 5.0?
Dreid 65536 uncalimed interuppts quit Alink quickly
II GS1 what are the differences in ver 5.0?
JimMensch you click in the desktop, then click once on the icon ya wanna
rename. type the name and hit rtn
AFL Dyfet I think we had better get started here....Okay, Welcome to the
Apple II Dev.
AFL Dyfet Forum. Tonight's topic is GS/OS and System Software 5.0. WE WILL
BE USING
AFL Dyfet PROTOCOL, starting NOW! This means if you wish to ask a question,
please enter
AFL Dyfet a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to comment on the
current question,
AFL Dyfet please enter a '!' on a line by itself. Before we actually get
started with
EdwardF4 =\
AFL Dyfet tonights discussion, I would like to introduce our special guests
tonight;
EdwardF4 (sorry. Kitten on keyboard.)
II GS1 lol
AFL Dyfet Jim Merrit and Ray Montage, who have been directly involved in
bringing GS/OS
AFL Dyfet about at Apple computer :). Jim, if you would like to step
forwared and
JimMensch (Jim Merrit is not here...)
AFA Gary J :)
JimMensch he's on vacation...
AFL Dyfet introduce yourself, feel free to do so :)...(Oops, sorry Jim...I
got my Jim's
AFL Dyfet confused :)...
JimMensch But, he is in charge of the AUG group which is in charge of the
Finder
JimMensch the control panel and the Advanced disk utilities. He is also a
big proponent of pascal
II GS1 how do you get involved with AUg?
JimMensch Now, I on the other hand, write tools
JimMensch I worked priumarily on Quickdraw, windowMgr, Control Mgr, event
mgr, and memory mgr for the 5.0
JimMensch system disk.
JimMensch GA
AFL Dyfet (What a birthday :)....Okay, Ray, would you like to introduce
yourself?
Montagne Howdy, all. I've been working on GS/OS since it's conception --
AFA Gary J (we have a nice sized party here for your birthday, Dave :)
Montagne working mostly on generated drivers, loaded drivers, the device
dispatcher
Montagne and the device manager.
Montagne GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you gentlemen. Now, I believe we are ready for our
first question,
AFL Dyfet from AFC Joyce...You have the floor now, Joyce...
AFC JoyceM I am having great difficulty in getting 5.0 to re-name a
folder...how do I
AFC JoyceM overcome this problem? Thank you. GA
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...:)
JimMensch Its quite simple, click once in the blue background and then click
on the folder
JimMensch Then, start typing the new name for the folder, when you are done
press return and its renamed. GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Joyce, I take it you have something to add...
JimMensch (Was I Wrong joyce??? :)
AFC JoyceM So it works differently than 4.0?
JimMensch yes, it works different from 4.0
JimMensch ga
AFC JoyceM Thank you. GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Coach. You have the
floor now...
Coach101 I was dumping a GrafPort while chasing a ScrolllRect problem and
noticed
Coach101 that the font handle now has some high order bits set (i.e.,
80e077d4)
Coach101 Waht is the significance of the high order bits in a handle and is
it
Coach101 now legal to play games with the high order bits in pointers?
JimMensch yes coach, thats cause you have the system font installed as the
current font
JimMensch that is the fastfont handle...
JimMensch Coach, its legal for me to play games, with the high order bit,
but not for you
JimMensch sorry GA
Coach101 Thanks..... GA
BRCCMAIL Is it possible to have other FastFonts besides Shaston?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I see that our next question is from II GS1, who left, so I
believe that
AFL Dyfet BRCCMAIL has the floor next, although he stole it early :)
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch Well, yes it is possible to have other fast fonts, in fact I have
a few others, but since I have not
JimMensch published the specs for how they work, you can't create your own.
We may release more fast fonts
JimMensch but, as you can see they take up a lot of disk space and memory
room...
JimMensch ga
JimMensch and the specs will be released as soon as I get around to it...
JimMensch ga
AFL Dyfet Hmm...Okay, I believe the next question is from Dreid...GA
Dreid...
Dreid What about the defect in SCSI.driver mentioned by Bredon,and do
you know OKS's
Dreid driver which replaces SCSI.dr and mgr
AFL Dyfet GA Montagne...you seem to have gotten in first :)
Montagne I yield to Matt (since I was gonna ask for more info on the
question)
Montagne ga
Matt DTS Bredon's mucking about with the SCSI.DRIVER was only for 4.0, and
won't even do anything if you
Matt DTS try to run it under 5.0, since SCSI.DRIVER doesn't exist under
5.0. The problems he addressed are not
Matt DTS present in the SCSI Manager, which is a completely new set of
code. *I* am not familiar with the Ohio
Matt DTS Kache loaded drivers. GA.
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
Montagne Just a general note... No driver should replace an existing driver
unless
Montagne the new driver identifies it's own hardware. OKS' driver should
not replace
Montagne the driver supplied by Apple Computer, Inc. when using Apple's
hardware. GA
Goalie5 What is the high order bit that was mentioned earlier and how will
my older
Goalie5 (Sorry)
AFL Dyfet I saw you sneaking in Goalie :)...The next question will be from
II GS1, who
AFL Dyfet lost his place earlier. You have the floor now...
II GS1 Thanx :-) I just d/l the 5.0 version and I was wondering what
II GS1 Some of the major differences were.
II GS1 ga
AFL Dyfet Perhaps Ray would most love to tell us about this one, having been
so close to
AFL Dyfet it's development :). GA Ray :)
Montagne Since no one else took it-File loading is up to 5 times faster
when the
Montagne file is changed to express format. The AppleDisk3.5 driver
performs I/O at
Montagne twice the speed of 4.0 when doing large transfers (more than 4
blocks), the
Montagne SCSI driver(s) and manager increase I/O performance on SCSI
devices by a factor
Montagne of about 5. And last, but certainly not least, Jim has improved
the
JimMensch We have added several new tools and enhanced others, see the
discusion area for details. GA
AFL Dyfet I bet Jim would love to tell us about the the tools :). GA
Jim...
Montagne performance of Queeksdlaw by up to eight times. GA
JimMensch They are much faster. (AndyBoy1 grabbed Mensches kbd)
AFL FrankD :)
JimMensch sorry, but we changed so much that it would be a bad idea to go
into it right now. We made some change
AFL Dyfet I'm glad you were able to make it after all, Andy...albiet a
little
JimMensch ga
AFL Dyfet indirectly :). GA A2GS...
A2GS You forgot to mention support for CDEV's :)
A2GS Without getting into things to deeply.
A2GS GA
AFL Dyfet This is true, it would take very long to cover even in brief the
changes made,
AFL Dyfet so we will be going to the next question, from Sky Singer. GA
Sky...
SkySinger 2 questions. Are there any color printer drivers in GS/OS? Any
animation tools
SkySinger now or planned? GA.
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch Yes, the imagewriter printer supports color (as does the driver)
and no, no animation tools now,
JimMensch as for later, you know better than that...... :)
AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
A2GS Wouldn't mind seeing some 3-D tools :)
AFL Dyfet I recall a number of cute 3-d drawing tools from the 'old' II days
myself :)...
AFL Dyfet in any case, I believe our next question is from AFL Tracy. GA
Tracy...
AFL TracyP I continually get questions in the Hardware Forum asking
about...
AFL TracyP drivers for printers other than IWII and Epson. Has or will
Apple
AFL TracyP release info so that interested third prties can write drivers?
AFL TracyP ga
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS What?!
Matt DTS Information on how to write third-party drivers has been out for
more than a year!
Montagne Geez Matt, Melow out!
Matt DTS IIgs Technical Notes # 35 and 36. I thought you were going to
ask...
AFL TracyP Fine, how can someone obtain the aforementioned??
Matt DTS ...if we were working on sample code, and that answer is yes.
Maybe not for source code sampler
Matt DTS volume #2, but hopefully soon. The TNs are available in the ADV
library, right Dyfet? <GA>
JimMensch download em from here tracy
AFL TracyP Thanks, Matt, I'll pass it along. :))
AFL TracyP ga]
AFL Dyfet I think we covered that question, and now I have one left over
from the chaos
AFL Dyfet at the very start of tonights conf. Ray (or Jim/Matt), why is
GS/OS now more
AFL Dyfet sensative about unclaimed interrupts?
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
Montagne I'm not sure why the change was made but it used to be like
this... When an
Montagne unclaimed interrupt occurred a counter was incremented. If the
interrupt
Montagne was ever claimed, the counter was reset. If the counter ever
overflowed
Montagne to 65536, the unclaimed interrupt message was displayed. The
counter
Montagne represented the number of consecutive unclaimed interrupts. It is
now
Montagne cummulative. Were looking into it but the dialog is indicating
a
Montagne condition that should not exist whether the counter is reset or
not.GA
AFL Dyfet GA Coach...
Coach101 The information I have says that the counter is checked at each
Coach101 interrupt but the behaviour is different. I can only get the
message
Coach101 at two different types of times... When leaving ALPE or when a
disk I/O
Coach101 is attempted.... Is it really susposed to be checked at each
interrupt?
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
Montagne It is only checked at interrupt time (the 65536th interrupt)GA
AFL Dyfet I think I understand now. Perhaps the 6551 is continually
slamming the
AFL Dyfet interrupt line until it's been told that the status register was
read...if it
AFL Dyfet is, it will certainly bump that count up VERY quickly during disk
I/O, when the
AFL Dyfet software is unable to service the poor chip.
Coach101 Thats a promising avenue....
AFL Dyfet Either that, or the counter is jumping at more than a single
increment...
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
Montagne Not to likely. The counter is incremented by the interrupt
manager
Montagne only when no handler has claimed it. GA
Coach101 As a workaround how about a
AFL Dyfet Okay, we can discuss this further in the boards, this looks like
it will take
Coach101 CDA that uses a ProDos-16 type interrupt handler and just disposes
of
AFL Dyfet some time to figure out. I believe the next question is from
Goalie. You have
Coach101 any interrupts that it gets.... Is that a feasible
workaround?
Goalie5 What is the high order bit that was mentioned eariler and how do
you make a
Goalie5 file express load format??
Goalie5 GA
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch the High order bit we were talking about was in the high byte of
the font handle in your grafports...
JimMensch every handle has an extra byte at the top, which I used for
internal flags. It is completly compatible
JimMensch for older stuff.
JimMensch and to express a file, you run express on it from APW, however I
do not know if that is available yet.
JimMensch maybe the dts guys know...
JimMensch ga
Goalie5 Also, I have many programs written for system 4.0.
Goalie5 How will thsy run on 5.0??
Goalie5 ga
JimMensch they will run just fine, but a little faster
JimMensch ga
Montagne Nevermind!
AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
Goalie5 Will any programming routines need to be changed on programs that
I write??
Scotty AMS ...cancel my wuestion... thanks
A2GS I've found in many programs that use the tools but don't follow
all the
A2GS guidelines, they don't purge memory and therefore may freeze or
crash the
A2GS system under 5.0!
AFL Dyfet GA Jim....it seems these two are related :)
Goalie5 Also, what was APW,Jim?? Finder???
JimMensch Not if you follow the rules in the toolbox ref manual goalie ga.
JimMensch Goalie, its something you can buy from APDA.
JimMensch ga
Goalie5 OK. Thanks.
Goalie5 Done.
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
Montagne Thanks, nevermind!
AFL Dyfet Ah...Okay, I believe our next question is from BRRCMAIL. GA
Brrc...
BRCCMAIL I just read some info by Dave Leffler on adding new file types to
Ftype.Main
BRCCMAIL Is is okay for the end user to add a new Ftype file?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS <grimacing AND whining all at the same time...>
Matt DTS Please don't mess with Ftype.Main and FType.Aux.
Matt DTS You are perfectly welcome to add your own FType file to the
*/Icons directory.
Matt DTS You can have up to 30 of them, and the auxtype has to be greater
than $0100.
Matt DTS File type note for File Type $42 details the format (released in
July; text format any day now, says
Matt DTS Mark Johnson). GA.
AFL Dyfet (q -A2GS)
AFL Dyfet Okay, our next question will be from the Gibber, who got misplaced
in the que.
AFL Dyfet GA Gibber.
A GibberFC I am currently working on drivers for the HP Deskwriter to work
with the //gs
A GibberFC But the biggest work that I have ahead of me is the translation of
the Semi-
A GibberFC OUtline fonts that the HP uses on the Mac.... I am wondering if
there is a way
A GibberFC to make a new file that Quickdraw // will recognize as a "outline
font" and
A GibberFC allow the graphics capibility with the //gs... i.e. the scaling
from 4 to 250
A GibberFC point with no Jaggies
A GibberFC ga
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch Quickdraw does not recognize "outline fonts.." they must be
standard bitmap fonts
JimMensch so, you would have to create the font in the size you want and put
it on the disk. GA
A GibberFC hmmm like a 250 point font that will can be shrunk down by the
//gs?
A2GS LOL
A GibberFC That will take up much hard drive space ;)
JimMensch sure, but no matter how its scaled it will look bad. ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from SkySinger. GA Sky...
SkySinger Could someone give a brief description of "resources" and how they
operate?
JimMensch you have to have a file for each font if you want it to not look
scaled...
JimMensch resources are a seperate part of a standard file that contain data
items that are identified by
JimMensch type and id. They are a way to manage standard system type data
for programmers. The resource manager
JimMensch acts as a type of data manager reading and writing them. GA
JimMensch (andy) !
AFL Dyfet GA Andy :)
JimMensch The nice thing is that many of the tools know about resources.
For example, you could put the
JimMensch data for a menu into a resource, and you could call NewMenu2 with
just the ID of the resource,
JimMensch and the menu manager will call the resource manager, load the
data, build the menu, and
JimMensch release the resource all in one step.. Pretty cool eh? GA
SkySinger Sounds good. Thanks. GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, more information about resources may be found in the
discussion area. I
AFL Dyfet believe the next question is from Dreid. GA Dreid...
Dreid I have found that when I view files in a window by date (vs icon)
the bottom
Dreid proportional scroll bar is not active even though I can't see
everything
Dreid normal?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Normal. Here's why:
Matt DTS The Finder displays the headings ("Name", "kind", "Size", etc.) in
the window's "information bar"
Matt DTS which is a standard window part handled by the Window Manager.
The Information Bar doesn't scroll
Matt DTS when the window does. Therefore, scrolling the window makes the
headings line up with the wrong
Matt DTS columns, which we found to be confusing a significant, non-zero
number of people.
Dreid not nice if you want to check all changed files
Matt DTS So now you grow the window to see more information. (It's always
been this way in the Mac Finder.)
Matt DTS There's always trade-offs. We opted this time to confuse fewer
people. GA.
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe AFL Tracy is next. GA Tracy...
AFL TracyP Why does Sys 5.0 seem so persnickety about certain modified
AFL TracyP Finder.Icons files? A number of poeple have complained
AFL TracyP about their 5.0 disk crashing in mid-boot. It seems
AFL TracyP to be traceable to a changed Finder.Icons file.
AFL TracyP ga
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
AFL TracyP (it hasn't happened to me yet...:)
Matt DTS (making up for earlier slacking) From Jim Merritt, the official
Top Several list ...
Matt DTS ...of Things You Can't Do to Finder.Icons:
Matt DTS 1. Add new icons to it.
Matt DTS 2. Change anything but the image of icons already in it.
Matt DTS 3. Delete icons from it.
Matt DTS Basically, Jim says the Finder makes assumptions about
Finder.Icons, and doesn't like it if someone
Matt DTS changed things around to make the assumptions fail. The chief
culprits are duplicate trash can or
Matt DTS "generic" icons (those which match any file). Duplicates there
make the Finder quite unhappy.
Matt DTS Fortunately, you can add icons in separate files (not
Finder.Icons) and the Finder will be happy.
Matt DTS GA Ray.
Montagne Besides, proper use of the installer prevents these problems. GA
AFL Dyfet GA Coach...
AFL TracyP Hmmmm...those "rules" are certainly violable, though.
Coach101 Yes, but the Finder will crash with Icon files that were fine
under 4.0
AFL TracyP I have a highly modified Finder.Icons file. Why I haven't
AFL TracyP crashed like som others, I don't know....
Coach101 and are stored as new Icon files in the Icons folder. Again, to
the user
Coach101 this appears as a crash in mid-boot... ga
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch (andyboy) a file which worked under 4.0 is not necessarily a
"correct" file
JimMensch That's just one of the rules of compatibility .. GA
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
AFL TracyP (foloup ?, pls....)
Coach101 Ok... But a bad Icon message is far preferable to a crash....
done...
Matt DTS Sometimes you can break the rules and not die. We've all seen (or
written) programs like that.
Matt DTS That doesn't mean it won't happen soon, like as soon as your
program with the bad icon file ships.
Matt DTS :(
Matt DTS Basically, since the Finder offers you a way to add as many icon
files as you like, it's just plain
Matt DTS easier to leave the Finder's files alone (except to change
images). And don't put non-file icons into
Matt DTS separate files. It's just a set of Finder restrictions we
currently have. GA Ray.
Montagne It is also unreasonable that the system software will parse
everything when
Montagne performance is at risk. We have to trust developers to follow the
rules and
Montagne sometimes when they don't - you have a bad day! GA
AFL Dyfet GA Tracy (With f/u Q)
Coach101 Good point....
AFL TracyP I missed the answer to the ? about expressloada files.
AFL TracyP Are users capable of converting current files to ExpressLoad
AFL TracyP format, orwill those have to come from the publishers?
AFL TracyP ga
AFL Dyfet Express is an APW utility (or will be)...GA Ray...
Montagne They have to come from the publishers! Write'em and tell'em what
you want.GA
AFA Parik (retract Q)
AFL TracyP OK, thanks. Sorry Parik...:)
AFL Dyfet I gather there was some concern about users indiscriminently
expressing on
AFL Dyfet their own?
AFA Parik (not my question, just forgot what I wanted to ask ;)
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch Express on your own, but at your own risk. Some apps can not be
expressed without rewrite and
JimMensch the best people to decide if an application works as designed is
the publisher. Some apps may fail if
JimMensch expressed, and they may fail in wierd ways...
JimMensch GA
JimMensch (Andy went home...)
AFL Dyfet I know that term, 'wierd ways' :)...um, I see that our next
question is from
AFL Dyfet Coach...GA...
Coach101 I am trying to scroll a window with my own vertical scroll
bar....
Coach101 The action routine pointed to by my TrackControl call issues a
ScrollRect
Coach101 call of the appropriate amount. When my ContentDraw routine is
entered
Coach101 I have and update region that is the entire content area of the
window
Coach101 and a visible region that is nil (0,0,0,0). Consequently, my draw
routine
Coach101 does nothing.... What should I be doing?
Coach101 ga
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons When your ContentDraw routine is entered, the update region
doesn't mean anything in particular--
Dave Lyons but the VisRegion shouldn't be empty like that. I dunno what's
going on--Jim?
AFL Dyfet Jim? GA :)
JimMensch Well, its like this
JimMensch your content drawproc is called AFTER a call to begin update, so
the update region is swapped with the
JimMensch the vis region. If your update region was nil, then you have no
vis region. Are you inval'ing the
JimMensch region scroll rect returns? scrollrect is part of quickdraw, and
quickdraw don't know from update rgns
AFA Parik t
JimMensch I suspect that your update region is being set screwy. Are you
changing the content origin?
JimMensch ga
Coach101 Nope on the inval, and that explains alll....... Will
change
Coach101 code this evening and retire for bed with a working routine....
AT LAST!
Coach101 THANKS THANKS THANKS
JimMensch groovy, GA
Dave Lyons If you're not inval-ing anything, why is your content-draw
AFA Parik (no, face mashing on keyboard)
Dave Lyons routine getting called at all, Coach?
Coach101 Ask Jim
Montagne Next question!
Coach101 Or..... The control changed its visible condition due to user
interaction!
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from A2GS...
A2GS Can someone briefly explain the process, what happens when an app
is
A2GS 'Expressed' and what allows it to run faster under 5.0 as opposed
to 'regular'
A2GS 'UnExpressed' files?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Basically, Expressed files are "pre-processed" and pre-expanded in
some ways...
Matt DTS ...the System Loader reads through the file looking for some
things, and Expressed files already have
Matt DTS them recorded in the special "express" segment. This avoids
walking OMF records and speeds loading.
Matt DTS More detail than we probably want to take on-line time for will be
in a September Technical Note,
A2GS thanx...Curious :)
Matt DTS appropriately entitled "ExpressLoad Philosophy" (or "Speedy the
Loader Helper", I can't remember.)
Matt DTS GA.
A2GS GA
Montagne Just a note. An expressed file will still work with 4.0.
Montagne ga
AFL Dyfet Any further comments or questions?
AFL FrankD Good NOTE! Thanks, Ray. :)
AFL FrankD What's a CDEV?
JSchober Control Panel DEVice. :)
AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
A2GS To my knowledge it's a file which handles a certain option among
those
A2GS available in the control panel (OA-ctrl-ESC), but is displayed and
allows
A2GS access through the desktop too the control panel.
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...:)
A2GS GA
Matt DTS CDevs only affect the Control Panel NDA (through the pull-down
Apple menu). The text-based CDA
Matt DTS Control Panel is not affected. Specs will be published in
September; File Type Note for type $C7.
Matt DTS <GA>
AFA Parik will expressed files work under system disk v3.2 and below?
(sorry, a bit slow)
AFL FrankD Thanks! Wondered about those little jewels. :)
Matt DTS (parik: Yes. ProDOS 16 v1.2 or later is needed.)
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other takers for tonight?
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch I have a question... What would people like to see added to the
toolbox. New tools, new features ...
JimMensch ga
AFL Dyfet He asked....:)
Montagne and the OS....
ShrinkIt (I already sent in my list... :-)
AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
AFA Gary J FST's
AFL Dyfet High speed Apple supplied com drivers :)
JimMensch not to me... :) (and I get to help chose)
AFL Scott Palette Manager, More FST's(for the os)...Done.
Matt DTS Jim: DTS got Andy's list today. We're working through it. Be
patient. :)
JimMensch FST's?? (A little vague...)
Doctor Why Concatonating prefixs or paths.
AFA Parik Imagewriter LQ driver (full featured)
JSchober HFS FST would be a good start... :) <sorry, I'm kinda losing
protocolishness.>
JimMensch Pallette manager? to do what?
A2GS More special FX tools like...3-D tools, fades etc... liven thins
up! :)
AFL Dyfet Let's take this slowly...one person at a time...
AFL Dyfet GA Joe...you have the floor...
JimMensch (I am recording...)
AFL Scott Do what the mac thing does... only allowing dynamic allocation of
palettes...
JSchober OK... then, an HFS FST =would= be a good start, for the OS. For
tools... umm,
AFL Scott such as when a user selects a different palette to work with, the
SCBS are
JSchober well, if you made 'em re-entrant, that'd help things tons. :)
GA
AFL Scott automatically updated for each line crossed. DONE
AFL Dyfet I see both Scott and Joe got in there :)...GA Ray, I gather you
wish to comment
AFL Dyfet on some of this?
Montagne Re-entrancy is not really an FST problem, it's a driver
problem...
JSchober Re-entrant tools, I meant.
Montagne Most drivers are based heavily on firmware implementations such
as
Montagne BASIC, Pascal1.1, ProDOS, SmartPort or Extended SmartPort. These
firmware
Montagne implementations are not re-entrant. We could make the OS
re-entrant but
Montagne compatability would be almost non existant. Not a good trade off!
GA
JimMensch got it, re-entrant tools, more fts's (vague) pallette manager
(please send an explanation)
JimMensch anyone else?
A2GS Special FX tools of some kind, liven things up a bit, 3-D,
Fades,
A2GS color cycling, faster algorithms for filling, line drawing,
etc...
Matt DTS (horizontal scrolling in TextEdit. Multiple rulers. 20x
faster.)
JimMensch Special effects, 3-d (as in rotations and such?) animation/screen
manipulation.. anything else?
Doctor Why Concatonating prefixes or paths
A2GS yep.
JimMensch how 'bout 10x faster matt :)
Matt DTS Fine. Gotta start somewhere.
JimMensch Concatinating prefixes? whats that?
ShrinkIt (and not make it take a ton of memory, Jim... :-)
JimMensch oh like 1/2/3 and stuff
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS Nevermind my comment/question :)
AFL Dyfet I think he means fancier calls for manipulating pathnames...
JimMensch oh, ok...
Doctor Why It means that you can look for a file in a series of prefixes.
JimMensch got it
JSchober How 'bout the graphical equivalent of the TextEdit toolset??
AFA Parik textedit = graphic i thought?
JimMensch Like the textedit toolset on 5.0???
AFL Dyfet Oh, I see Doctor Why....list searching...
JimMensch or do you mean trhe text toolkit...
JSchober No, I mean, one to ease the implementation of the basic graphic
tools.
AFL Dyfet GA RAY...
JimMensch ok. Well thats a bunch for now!
Montagne Good god! Don't use the Text Tool Set for anything!!!!
Montagne Other alternatives should be considered (lest we may not be able
to
A2GS That's what the desktop is for!
JimMensch I will come back and ask again some times...
Montagne provide dynamic slot switching, allowing all 14 slots to be
used)GA
Matt DTS Ray: Mellow out! :)
AFL Dyfet I believe we have already had this long debate already in a folder
(text tools)
Matt DTS The Right Way will triumph in the end.
AFL Dyfet and for now, I'd prefer to keep it there, before we get onto that
impassioned
AFL Dyfet subject for the rest of the night :)...
AFA Gary J :)
Montagne Matt was waiting for that!
AFL Dyfet I would like support of 'C' strings (char followed by /0) by GS/OS
calls
AFL Dyfet myself :)...Would make libraries for C easier to impliment :)
JimMensch broader os string support. got it..
JoeM54 Is the forum to ask questions about the 5.0 system
AFL Dyfet Yes it is, Joe, although our conference began at 10:00PM EST...
ShrinkIt (we're suggesting improvements right now, joe... :-)
AFA Gary J I like the idea of a key-file/index toolset for indexing data in
files. ;)
AFL Dyfet You mean like Coach is sorta working on? Actually, a GS/OS record
manager
JimMensch database/data indexing tool
Coach101 Have I got a deal for you Gary!
AFL Dyfet would not be a bad idea :)
AFL FrankD Gotta run... sunrise comes earlier here than in California. :)
AFA Gary J Yes, Coach :)
JSchober Night Frank. :)
AFL FrankD Nice conference! Thanks guys! :)
JoeM54 I have been experiencing some difficulties running applelink under
5.0
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Frank.
AFL Dyfet Here's one on my wishlist: Being able to hold open multiple
handles to the same
AFL Dyfet file....
Coach101 What do you mean?
Matt DTS You can do that now, Dave. They just all have to be read-only.
JimMensch Dyfet, please mail lengthy descriptions to me...
AFL Dyfet You can Matt!!!???? But ALL have to be read-only???
Matt DTS (so different people, like an application and a DA, don't conflict
over the same file.)
Matt DTS (if the app wrote to a section of file the DA already read, how
would the DA know?)
AFL Dyfet I was thinking of several background inits for interesting things
if shared
AFL Dyfet file access were truelly possible...
Doctor Why I've got to run, thanks guys!
Matt DTS If you can't open a file read-only, then someone else has it open
with read-write permission.
A2GS Would like sub-menus in pull down menus.
JimMensch hierarchical menus got it (ugh)
Matt DTS Use the Exerciser application and play around with it, Dave.
ShrinkIt hierarchical menus? Please, I vote no..
A2GS Why?
JimMensch thats 2 votes against... :)
ShrinkIt Matt, tell 'em...
AFL Dyfet I will Matt...
Matt DTS They're a good excuse for poor human interface.
JoeM54 yes i am using an internal modem
JimMensch Not enough screen realestate a2gs... I wish we could take them
back on the mac side...
Matt DTS They make simple choices hard to access and make finding menu
choices sometimes impossible.
AFL Scott Tear off menus.
Matt DTS Imagine trying to change fonts in a program with no ChooseFont
dialog and a hierarchical font menu.
Matt DTS (and a lot of fonts. You'd be imagining PowerPoint on the Mac.
Ick.)
A2GS Good point...could only be used for really simple/obvious menus.
JimMensch Tear off menus, right
Matt DTS (I could go on and on.)
Matt DTS (And often do.)
JimMensch please don't, he gets the point
ShrinkIt Tear-Offs would be nice... :-)
AFL Dyfet I believe Jim noted that :)
AFL Scott If it was suggested before... I missed it due to
E-Mail/FN's..Sorry.
AFA Parik when a program quits and is *NOT* restartable, what is done with
the actual
AFA Parik program ram? That is, where in memory the program resided. for
some reason
AFA Parik it won't disappear from RAM and my RAm keeps shrinking...ugh
AFA Parik (and its NOT restartable)
JimMensch It is empty waiting with open arms for new data parik
Matt DTS It's released to the system, Parik. Any memory it allocated with
a different userID won't, however,
Dave Lyons When a program quits and isn't restartable, GQUIT calls
UserShutdown, and all the memory with
Matt DTS be automatically disposed of. The application has to do that.
Dave Lyons the program's memory ID gets disposed of. If you're losing
memory, it sounds like the
JimMensch Parik, you may be using the wrong ID when allocating memory, check
with memory peeker or mangler
Dave Lyons program is allocating some memory with a different memory ID (by
accident? for some reason?).
AFA Parik its nice having bunch of Apple folks. :) thanks, will check.
JimMensch hmmmm .... these all sound alike...
Matt DTS (the preceding three answers were a graphic illustration of the
Evils of Poor Interleave.)
Dave Lyons (Did anybody compute the interleave factor for those last answers?
:)
AFL FrankD Looks fine to me, just have to get used to reading it. :)
AFL FrankD 1:3 Dave. :)
Dave Lyons (Parik...gee, I wish I could think of a good utility you could use
to examine memory and
Dave Lyons see what's going on....)
JimMensch if no other comments I think I will head out...
Montagne I think I'll reassign some blocks!
A2GS Why does 5.0 load certain portions of itself into scattered banks
in memory,...
Dave Lyons "Scattered banks"??
AFL Dyfet GA Ray...
A2GS why not just purge all of memory so the next app which is run
doesn't have to
A2GS worry?
Matt DTS DAs might not like that.
Montagne Historically, the operating system only resided in language card
areas
JimMensch inits might not either
Dave Lyons Purge all of *what* memory when, A2GS? The Memory Manager
supports some pretty neat
Montagne and certain portions of bank $00. As additional features have
been added
Dave Lyons ideas to keep from wasting your time--things can stay in RAM and
be re-used if they're
Matt DTS Or INITs. Or resources loaded and released.
A2GS thanx. That answers my ?
Dave Lyons needed later & you didn't need the memory anyway in the
meantime.
Montagne such as high performance drivers and FST's, these have had to be
loaded into
AFA Parik bye Jim. THANK YOU a lot for being so supportive of II.
Montagne managed memory since their just was not sufficient real estate in
the
Coach101 Good night Jim.... Thanks for the help....
Montagne language card areas (plus bank $E0 and $E1 are slow). GA
AFL Dyfet Have a good evening, Jim!! (that is, if you do manage to escape
here :)
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Jim. Thanks for coming tonight.
AFA Gary J :)
A2GS Wasn't thinking of using the language card!?
Montagne Meaning?
A2GS Banks 05 and up.
Montagne Didn't I mention use of managed memory in my answer? GA
A2GS Yup, but seemed to also keep referring to the LC which really has
no use now
A2GS except to retain compatibility.
Dave Lyons No use? It's used by the system.
Montagne My reference was only to show that there was not sufficient real
estate
Dave Lyons (And compatibility is important!)
A2GS But, wouldn't be necessary had the GS's predecessors not used
it.
Montagne to cram the system software into the language cards (who would
want to with
Montagne the slower performance) so many components are in managed memory
where
A2GS uderstood :)
Montagne there is space for them and they run faster. GA
A2GS Never questioned that :)
Montagne Any more???
Montagne Gonna check out. See y'all later.
AFL Dyfet Okay Ray, you have a good evening :)
