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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
June 13, 1989  10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:   Operating Systems
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)


AFL Dyfet  Welcome to the Apple II Development forum.  Tonight's topic is Apple
          II operating systems.  We will be using
          PROTOCOL starting now.  This means if you wish to ask a question,
          you must enter '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to comment
          on the question being asked, you must enter a '!' on a line by
          itself.  I will call you each in turn to speak.  Okay, let's get the
          queue filled :)
AFL Dyfet  GA Coach.
Coach101   Any news on the availability of 5.0 and new APW?
IIGS MAN   My question!
AFL Dyfet  GA Josh.
JoshThomps Coach, by luck, I happen to have both of those...
IIGS MAN   5.0!!!!!
AFL Dyfet  I believe he meant full public availability :).
Coach101   Where-o-where did they come from?
Coach101   Right!
IIGS MAN   Where are they!
AFL Dyfet  GA Jim.
JimLaz     Dealer do not have 5.0 yet.
JimLaz          ^s
IIGS MAN   Upload it!!!!!
JoshThomps I can't...it's not public and I respect that status.
JimLaz     Josh, you have the beta?
IIGS MAN   when is it going to be public,dyphet?
AFL Dyfet  I don't believe it will be released for licensing till at least
          July 1st...when
AFL Dyfet  it is, it will be up on here.
IIGS MAN   @#$&%*^%^$&^$%^%&
MarcSSSi   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Marc.
MarcSSSi   The beta 5.0 sw is pretty awsome (did I say that?) bu the function
          of beta
IIGS MAN   upload a demo!
MarcSSSi   testing is to nail the bugs... My HD is somewhat worse for the
          wear.
AFL Dyfet  One cannot demo an OS easily :).  Also, the current beta release
          is somewhat
AFL Dyfet  hard on HD's.  Take that as meaning file crashes...all in all, it
          would be
AFL Dyfet  much better to wait for the final release version.  For those of
          us that need
AFL Dyfet  to get products out under 5.0 in it's current state, that has been
          a bit of
AFL Dyfet  a challenge :).
Robin Hewd What is 5.0 current state?
AFL Marty  (Give it a rest GSMAN)
AFL Dyfet  At this point, our over-worked Apple people here have made it
          clear it is
AFL Dyfet  almost ready to go out.  A little patience, and perhaps they can
          get the job
AFL Dyfet  done and finally get to tahieti for a well deserved vacation :)
AFL Dyfet  GA Josh.
JoshThomps Well, I just thought I'd say I noticed 5.0 allows devices to be
          renamed...
IIGS MAN   any new functions of system disk 5.0
Robin Hewd Is this the operating system of the future GS or can't u
          comment?
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave.
Dave Lyons IIGS MAN, there will be *inches* of documentation explaining the
          new features
Dave Lyons of System Disk 5.0 for programmers, and there are gobs of
          user-visible
Dave Lyons features, too.  See the Let's Discuss board here in ADV for lots
          of
Dave Lyons discussion.  ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay, any other comments?
AFL Dyfet  GA Kevin.
KevinSSSi  I think the Apple Group deserves ALOT of praise, clapping, etc.
          They did
Robin Hewd Is 5.0 much faster than 4.0 in disk speed?
KevinSSSi  one heck of a job!
KevinSSSi  GA
Dave Lyons !
AE JohnS   (I'm applauding!)
AE PhilM   (me too!)
AFA Parik  ()() *praise* *praise*  *clap* *clap*
AFL Dyfet  Yes, Robin, it is.  And please, OBSERVE PROTOCOL :).  GA Dave.
Robin Hewd yeh yeh yeh!!!
JimLaz     (clap clap)
Dave Lyons Yes, 5.0 is much faster than 4.0 in disk speed.  ga
Robin Hewd (what does GA Dave mean??? haven't been on AppleLink long)
AFL Dyfet  It's much faster in MANY ways, actually.  Desktop applications run
          faster on
AFL Dyfet  a GS under 5.0 than they do under 4.0 with a Transwarp :).
AFL Dyfet  (At least for screen I/O, opening windows, etc).
Robin Hewd I heard the Quickdraw tool and others are faster as well, true?
JoshThomps !
AFL Dyfet  Yes, Robin, Qucikdraw is very much enhanced.  GA Josh.
JoshThomps 5.0 under a TransWarp GS isn't too shabby either!  :)
AE JohnS   :-)
AE PhilM   :)
AFL Dyfet  True, Josh :).  Okay, I believe the next question is from Uloth.
          GA.
Ulothrix   Is 5.0 compact enough for 2 drive use or should an HD be used?
AFL Dyfet  GA MAtt.
Matt DTS   5.0 easily fits on two drives.  It's when you add applications
          that you run into problems.
Matt DTS   :-)
AFL Dyfet  :)
Ulothrix   is disk IO increased as well
Matt DTS   The System Software takes up significantly more room on the disk,
          but there's a lot of new things.
Matt DTS   Those without AppleShare or AppleTalk can remove a lot of
          network-related files and save space.
Robin Hewd ?
Matt DTS   However, it's still a little bigger due to more OS files and new
          tools.  GA.
Ulothrix   Thanks
AFL Dyfet  To put it simply, EVERYTHING is faster EXCEPT the CPU :).
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe our next question is from Parik.  GA Parik.
Coach101   ?
AFA Parik  Is G. Little updating his book for GS/OS v5.0?  And will A-Wesley
          be updating
AFA Parik  their line of books in the near future?  ga
Robin Hewd Does it take longer to load the finder?
AFL Dyfet  Robin, if you wish to comment, please use PROTOCOL. GA Matt.
AFL Marty  (-?)
Matt DTS   I know Gary and an associate to be working on *A* book that's
          largely 5.0 based.  I do not know...
Matt DTS   ...if it is OS-related or "Exploring the Apple IIgs" type.  AW
          doesn't update the official
Matt DTS   manuals, Apple does, and we are releasing 5.0 documentation this
          summer through APDA.
Matt DTS   (Robin:  Protocol means type "?" with a question and "!" with a
          comment, and don't talk until the
Matt DTS   forum leader tells you to with "GA", which means "Go ahead.")
          (I'm done - GA)
JimLaz     I hope that the reason for the final GS/OS books being so slow to
          the market is
JimLaz     because they need to add 5.0 info.
JimLaz     ga
Matt DTS   Anyone waiting for AW to put out GS/OS books to buy them is
          leading a sheltered life.  Period.
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave.
Dave Lyons "The final" books??  Who says the system *ever* has to stop
Dave Lyons evolving?
Dave Lyons I think it's a bit early to call any 5.0-related books "slow" in
          getting
JimLaz     I mean the final printing for the first volume.
Dave Lyons to market, since the software isn't even released yet.  ga
JimLaz     You know hard back...not beta form.
AFL Dyfet  Very true, Dave :).  I believe the next question is from Phil.  GA
          Phil.
AE PhilM   I would imagine that some of the speed improvements that we're
          made in System
AE PhilM   5.0 are applicable to the Mac system software.  Has anyone from
          the Mac team
AE PhilM   taken a look at some of the magic you did.  My SE seem a bit
          sluggish compared
AE PhilM   to System 5.0 and TWGS.
Coach101   :)
AFL Dyfet  Some of the magic done would make the Mac a LOT harder to adapt to
          different
AE PhilM   done
AFL Dyfet  display devices, I would suspect.  GA Jim.
JimLaz     Phil, I heard that the speed improvement came from taking
          advantage of the way
JimLaz     the 65816 and the GS work, handle memory, ect.
AE PhilM   The way the front window is handled is what I heard, along with
          fast font and
JimLaz     Not really something that could be done on the Mac the same.
Dave Lyons !
AE PhilM   of course the disk drivers...but that is pretty much GS related.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe Matt now has the floor.  GA Matt.
JimLaz     ga
Matt DTS   Don't lose any sleep thinking that the Mac and II groups don't
          share technology where appropriate.
Matt DTS   :)  <GA>
AFL Dyfet  Yes, you might get contamited with Mac features :).  Ga Dave.
Dave Lyons QuickDraw speed improvements came from doing a lot of extra work
          to handle
Dave Lyons common special cases like drawing when all clipping regions are
          rectangular;
Dave Lyons I don't know whether QuickDraw on the Macintosh already
          incorporates these
AE PhilM   Yes, but thoes sort of things can also be applied to the Mac,
          Dave.
Dave Lyons special cases or not.   More System Disk 5.0 speed comes from
          ExpressLoad
Dave Lyons (a special format for efficient loading of OMF files) and
          ScatterRead in the
NoriM      Hi
Dave Lyons AppleDisk 3.5 driver (reads blocks as they come around).  I don't
          think the
AE PhilM   I know about expressload, but that has little to do with snapping
          windows in
AE PhilM   the finder.
Dave Lyons Macintosh 3.5 driver currently does that, but I could be wrong.
          ga
AE PhilM   Thank you.
AFL Dyfet  Any further comments?
AFL Dyfet  GA Joe.
JSchober   Is ExpressLoad merely a pre-linked relocation directory, or
          something more
JSchober   complex?
AFL Dyfet  That was a question you snuck in there, Joe :).
JSchober   (It was a question on the topic... :P  :)
Matt DTS   !
JimLaz     Foul! Ten yard penalty!
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Matt.  GA.
Matt DTS   More complex.  Docs probably coming in a Tech Note in September
          (since it's a biggie, but only applies
Matt DTS   to those writing their own linkers.  Application writers can just
          use utilities to handle it.)  GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I see that the next question is from Robin.  GA Robin.
Robin Hewd Will the new faster quickdraw make existing animation run
          faster???
AFL Dyfet  Most applications that call and use Quickdraw in a legal manner
          will see at
AFL Dyfet  least some improvement, and in some cases significent improvement.
           Programs
AFA Gary J Q = Robin, Marty, Coach, JimLaz
AFL Dyfet  that directly access screen memory or do their own thing will not,
          of course,
AFL Dyfet  notice any difference.  Anyone else wish to comment?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe the next question is from Coach.  GA Coach.
Coach101   Oops, wasn't there someone in front of me....   Marty for
          instance
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Marty  I'm going to ask a question that may border on heresy...
AFL Dyfet  Oh.  Yes, we skipped poor Marty.  Okay, the floor has been yielded
          to Marty.
AFL Marty  I've seen system 5.0 run and it is indeed impressive...
AFL Marty  It is amazing what can be accomplished by just rewriting
          software...
AFL Marty  which makes me wonder just how efficiently the code for system
          4.0...
AFL Marty  was written in the first place.  Obviously, poorly written code in
          what
AFL Marty  amounts to the first release of _the_ system disk for the GS...
Coach101   !
JimLaz     !
AFL Marty  would make system 5.0 look like a real winner.  Comments?
AFL Dyfet  GA Uloth.
Ulothrix   yes I wonder if Apple is holding back for some reason
Ulothrix   ga
AFL Dyfet  I believe the floor now belongs to Matt, who has the honour of 4.0
          to uphold :)
Matt DTS   You guys can spend your time worrying about this if you want.
          I'll worry about what comes for 5.1.
Matt DTS   There's a difference between straightforward, solid code and
          optimized, solid code.  One takes a *lot*
Matt DTS   longer to produce.  4.0 could have been this fast if you'd been
          willing to wait this long for it.  GA.
AFL Dyfet  Will it end up 6.0? ;)
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave.
Dave Lyons It would have been nice to have
Dave Lyons all the optimizations in there in 4.0, or even in the ROM,
Dave Lyons but that would mean you would have had to wait *longer* for 4.0 to
          be
Dave Lyons released.  There's no holding back--
JimLaz     -! all my point made...
JimLaz                 ^s
Dave Lyons it takes *time* to write code to handle all the special cases and
          get it
Dave Lyons right.
AFL Dyfet  Okay Marty, GA.
Dave Lyons It's not that the original code was written *badly*--it was
          written
Dave Lyons to get the job done in a straightforward way.  (Have I babbled
          long enough
Dave Lyons yet?)  GA.
AFL Marty  In one perspecive, it _has_ taken 4.0 this long to come up to
          speed....
AFL Marty  and I don't think the argument about time holds as much water as
          one might
AFL Marty  think...
AFL Marty  It takes man-hours... which can be increased by increasing staff
          working on the
AFL Dyfet  And then we will drop back to Coach for his comment :), and
          eventually his ?.
AFL Marty  project.  To say that it would have taken more time...
AFL Marty  presupposes that all other factors remain constant. GA
Coach101   When Apple makes an announcement or does something, dont go
          looking
Coach101   for nefarious reasons for their actions (it is possible that Apple
          is
AFL Marty  !
Coach101   not as devious as you).  Look for the good side....  Its makes
          life
Matt DTS   (I withdraw the pointed and barbed ! I had prepared in the
          interests of time.  :)  )
Coach101   a lot easire and generally comes closer to the truthc....
Coach101   Coach no leaving pulpit....   GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Marty, if you are ready, GA.
AFL Marty  I'm not looking for nefarious reasons at all.  I'm just stating
          something I
AFL Marty  was wondering about.  If I'm wondering it, you can be sure others
          are asking
AFL Marty  the same kinds of things.  I think it will be interesting to see
          if the
AFL Marty  differences between system 6.0 and system 5.0 are as great.
AFL Dyfet  I believe the next question falls to Coach.  I think this
          particular debate
AFL Marty  Oh... don't worry about saving time... I have lots of time :)
AFL Marty  done
Coach101   I did not mean a personal attack or offense Marty...   I
Coach101   My ?,  while running some "buggy" code that was trashing memory
          for
AFL Marty  (I know)
Coach101   sure I got a screen from GSOS (40 char mode, I think) that told
          me
Coach101   I had been had, and that the GS/OS error was 0002.  I hit the CR
          and
Coach101   rebooted fine but could not find an error 0002 anyplace.  What
          exactly
Coach101   is error 2?   GA
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  I knew it would be either Dave or Matt :).  GA Matt.
Matt DTS   Fatal system error $0002 means GS/OS tried to allocate necessary
          memory and couldn't get it.
Matt DTS   If it can return with "out of memory" error, it will, but
          sometimes it can't.
Matt DTS   (It's also a blatant signal to developers that they're making
          class 1 calls with class 0 strings.)
Matt DTS   GA
Coach101   Thanks Matt, in my case just a side effect of thoroughly trashing

Coach101   memory due to bad manipulation of handles....  Done
AFL Dyfet  Hmm...Okay, I believe the next question is from Jim.  GA Jim.
JimLaz     Is there a GS/OS COPY call or a toolcall in 5.0 that will copy
          extended files
JimLaz     (resource).
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave.
JimLaz     If not is there a way to do this from an application. GS
JimLaz     GS=GA
Dave Lyons No, but it's easy to use the class-1 OPEN call to open the 2nd
          fork, read it,
Dave Lyons and write it to the other file.  It's hardly any harder than doing
          a regular
Dave Lyons copy.  ga
JimLaz     I thought you wern't suppossed to access the resource fork
          directly...and let
JimLaz     the resource manager do everything.
Dave Lyons You're not supposed to *interpret* the data yourself--you have
          always had the
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave, this one seems to continually crop up :)
Dave Lyons right to copy them, squeeze them, unsqueeze them, etc.  This
          should have worked
Dave Lyons fine under 4.0, even.  I have heard claims that it did not work
          reliably, but
Dave Lyons I haven't verified that.  ga
JimLaz     Any idea if it's possible form ProDOS 8?
JimLaz     form=from
AFL Dyfet  GA Joe.
JSchober   P8 can't directly access forked files with file based MLI calls.
          You get an
JSchober   Invalid Storage Type error.  You =can=, kinda, access files using
          READ_BLOCKS
JSchober   and WRITE_BLOCK calls... Glen Bredon does this in some of the
          latest versions
JSchober   of his utils.  Seems pretty hazardous, tho.  GA.
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave.
Dave Lyons What Joe said.  A couple days ago I added a "+" next to Davex's
          catalog
Dave Lyons listings of extended files.  Marks them nicely so you know you
          can't do
Dave Lyons anything with them but rename, lock, unlock.... Can't even delete
          them.  ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay, any more comments?
AFL Dyfet  I believe the next question is from Dwight.  GA Dwight.
DwightW1   there is a rumor that the gs/os softeware system is steadily being
          updated to
DwightW1   really accommodate a IIgs hardware conversion to a low-end
          Mac...true?
AFA Gary J Heh..you think you're going to get any people who REALLY know to
          comment on
AFA Gary J that?
AFA Gary J  :)
AFL Dyfet  Rumors abound on everything it seems.  Either way, would you
          really expect an
AFA Parik  true?  yeah, its true its a rumor
AFL Dyfet  answer :)
DwightW1   good enought :)
Dave Lyons (That's exactly what I was going to say, Parik!)
JSchober   :)
AFA Parik  oh no...i'm thinking like lyons.  acckkk (or should he be
          scared?)
AFL Dyfet  I do not see how one could view GS/OS 5.0 in that manner simply
          because of all
AFL Dyfet  the hard work optimizing it for a 65816, however. :)
AFA Parik  NONO its SYSTEM DISK v5.0
AFA Parik  GS/OS v2.0 :)
AFL Dyfet  :)
AFL Dyfet  Bad habit.  GA Jim.
Dave Lyons Nope, it's going to be GS/OS 3.0!
JimLaz     What is the GS/OS version number on 5.0?
JimLaz     oppps, hit return before seeing it...
AFA Parik  I hate numbers
Matt DTS   GS/OS 2.0 was on 4.0.  GS/OS on 5.0 is 3.0, changed from 2.1 when
          it was 4.1, which it isn't.  Got it?
AFL Dyfet  Well, now that that has been streightened out...do we have any
          more questions
AFL Dyfet  for tonight?

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