AppleLink
APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
April 4, 1989   10:00 p.m. Eastern daylight time
Topic:  Pascal and C
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar  (AFL Dyfet)


AFL Dyfet  Ah.  We have a worm, I see...
Coach101   Now I know the difference between a virus and a worm!
AFA Gary J Go ahead, make my day...  :)
AFL TimB   What we need are compilers with whips and chains!
DaviesDoug hi scott
AFL TimB   That ensure tight code!
AFL Scott  Howdy,Doug!
AFL Scott  Howdy, Tim!
AFL TimB   Hi Scott!
Coach101   Now, now, machines are supposed to be fast enough to compensate
          for
AFA Gary J Chains:  That's only for old Applesoft programs.
AFL Dyfet  Welcome aboard one and all...we will give another minute for any
          late arrivals
Coach101   sloppy quality code!   So says a recent posting...
AFL Dyfet  and then get things started tonight...
AFL TracyP How much do I have to know to keep up tonight, Dave?
ProDude    Hiya Scott!
AFL TimB   You'll know more than I do Tracy!!!!
ProDude    Tim!
AFL TracyP <-- doubt it...:)
AFA Gary J Hi Pro!
ProDude    Gary!!
Brett18    Hello All...
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I see there are still a few in commings, so we will give
          another minute
AFL TimB   Pro!
AFL Dyfet  before formally starting...
AFL Scott  Howdy, Pro!
AFL TimB   White tie and tails?
AFL Dyfet  I don't recall seeing Matt out there, so perhaps this will be
          easier :)
AFA Gary J Hi Dave L
DaviesDoug Hi Dave
Dave Lyons Howdy.  What's da topic?  (2 lazy to look)
Coach101   Good evening Dave
DaviesDoug pascal and c
AFL Dyfet  Tonight it's Pascal and C, Dave...
DaviesDoug <- not too lazy to look it up
AFL Dyfet  We're just waiting to see that nobody else is about to appear,
          okay...
Energy     Hello. I'm only 10 so watch your language
Dave Lyons Gude EEevuning....
AFL Scott  <---Reads Ftfl...
ProDude    <- knew it without looking it up
AFL TimB   <--- Doesn't read his own FTFL!
AFL TimB   <--- Hasn't received his online mag!
AFL Dyfet  Good evening and welcome to the Apple II development forum's
          weekly conference.
AFL Dyfet  The topic for tonight's event is 'Pascal and C'.  We will be using
          protocol
Energy     What are you talking about?
AFL Dyfet  here starting NOW (THIS MEANS YOU, TIM :), which means if you wish
          to ask a
AFL Dyfet  question, please enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish
          to make a
AFL Dyfet  comment about the last question asked, please enter a '!' on a
          line by itself.
AFL Dyfet  We will keep track of outstanding questions and call upon you to
          enter your
AFL Dyfet  comment in the order they were made.
AFL Dyfet  Now, are there any initial questions?
DaviesDoug (what no Matt DTS tonight? :) )
BruceK14   ?
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA BruceK14...
BruceK14   Do more people here use/prefer Pascal or C for use?
DaviesDoug !
Brett18    !
AFL Dyfet  GA Davies
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Doug, Brett)
DaviesDoug Pascal, or prefferably assembly, if I have a choice
DaviesDoug .done.
Brett18    I prefer 'C' over Pascal...
ProDude    !
Dave Lyons !
Coach101   !
Larrycom   ?
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Brett, ProDude, Dave, Coach), Larry
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA ProDude
KEVIN95    what are the main applications of pascal and C
ProDude    I prefer Basic.
ProDude    GA
Dave Lyons I'd prefer C if I had a nice fast compiler w/ type checking.
AFL Dyfet  Your next Dave
KEVIN95    BASIC IS SLOW
Dave Lyons For now I prefer Pascal for most projects; assembly for some.
Dave Lyons ga
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Dave, Coach), Larry, Kevin
DaviesDoug (what, no parik here tonight?)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Coach, your up...
Coach101   My oreference is "C".  I go to assembly where speed is paramount
          or
Coach101   I need some special "calling/receiving" sequence for interface
          to
Coach101   a toolbox or GS/OS purpose.  GA
AFL Dyfet  I'll add that I prefer C myself as it is easier for porting code
          between
AFL Dyfet  different machines in C.  There has been a lot less work in
          enforcing what
AFL Dyfet  a 'standard' Pascal should be, it seems...I believe Larrycom had
          the next
BruceK14   ?
Larrycom   How does one get started on the apple in C?  What software is
          needed?
AFL Dyfet  question.
AFA Gary J Q = Larry, Kevin, Bruce
Coach101   !
AFL Dyfet  A good question there.  GA coach.
Coach101   If you have a II-GS, get a "shell".  Either APW ($100) or ORCA
          (less
Coach101   but I do not recall the price).  Then get a "C" compiler and
          library.
Coach101   Apple is the only "C" compiler that I know of at the present.
          ByteWorks
Dave Lyons !
KEVIN95    ?
Coach101   is about (I think) to release their "C" compiler.  To get the
          Apple stuff
Coach101   you need to join APDA (the application is here on AppleLink).  If
          you
AFA Gary J Q = Larry (Coach, Dave), Kevin, Bruce
Coach101   are not using a II-GS, I do not know but perhaps Dave does.  Dave
          will
RussBlue   ?
Coach101   also correct any mistakes I made.   GA
AFL Dyfet  Your question has been noted and will be next, Kevin.  GA Dave.
Dave Lyons The APDA phone number is 800-282-APDA.  The info is
AFA Gary J Q = Larry (Dave), Kevin, Bruce, RussBlue
Dave Lyons also available in the Reference Library here on ALPE.  I don't
          know of any
Dave Lyons really decent C compilers for the pre-GS Apple IIs.  ga
DaviesDoug !
AFL Dyfet  I do recall Aztec C myself, but it was heavy on overhead for a
          48K
AFL Dyfet  environment.  GA Davies.
DaviesDoug Aztec C was too big for the IIe
DaviesDoug not very usable
DaviesDoug .done.
AFL Dyfet  Any more comments on this?
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Kevin, I guess we are up to your question.  GA Kevin.
KEVIN95    WHAT ARE THE MAIN APPLICATIONS FOR C AND PASCAL AND HOW MUCH
          MEMORY IS NEEDED
KEVIN95    FOR C
AFA Gary J Q = Kevin, Bruce, RussBlue
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave (I knew it would be you :)
Dave Lyons (Please type in mixed-case letters--it'll be easier to read.)  To
          use APW C
Dave Lyons you need 1.25 megs of RAM in your GS (1280K:  a 1-meg memory card
          in addition
Dave Lyons to the 256K already on the main board).  Pascal and C are general
          programming
Dave Lyons languages:  you can write dang near anything you want in them.
          ga
AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (Dave), Bruce, RussBlue
RICH117    ?
KEVIN95    is C slower or faster than BASIC
Brett18    !
Doc RJA    OA-H
AFL Dyfet  Fair question Kevin.  I will give you the floor for it...
AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (Brett), Bruce, RussBlue, Rich
AFL Dyfet  GA Brett
Brett18    C is much faster then basic, for one considering it is a compiled
          language,
ProDude    !
Dave Lyons !
Brett18    and not a interpreted language, C is also more of a mid-level
          language, rather
Brett18    then a high-level language, resulting in closer to Machine
          Language code, which
AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (Brett, ProDude, Dave), Bruce, RussBlue, Rich
Brett18    in turn, runs at a much faster rate...
AFL Dyfet  GA ProDude
ProDude    It seems to me that the answer to that question would depend
          somewhat...
ProDude    on whose Basic your using.  There are several Basics that are
          compiled...
ProDude    two of them for the GS specifically. GA
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave....
Dave Lyons I was just going to point out that BASICs can be compiled, too.
          Speed
Dave Lyons comparisons can probably be done only with respect to particular
ProDude    !
Dave Lyons implementations--you can't really compare the languages
          themselves.  The big
Dave Lyons er...ONE big advantage of C and Pascal over BASIC
Dave Lyons is that you get decent data structures & can build them up to any
          complexity
Dave Lyons needed.  ga
ProDude    (-!)
AFL Dyfet  GA ProDude
AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (ProDude), Bruce, RussBlue, Rich
ProDude    pass
AFL Dyfet  Oh, okay.  I guess then we can move on to the next question from
          Bruce
BruceK14   Can anyone give PRACITCAL feedback reguarding existing (or beta) C
          compilers/
BruceK14   environments as well as which ones should be avoidede?
DaviesDoug !
Coach101   !
AFL Dyfet  GO ahead Davies (I wish Mike Westerfield were here :)
DaviesDoug I played with the one provided for APW once, seemed a lot of
          things weren't...
DaviesDoug definde........and it's doug, DAVE
DaviesDoug (It's Matt, yah)
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Coach), RussBlue, Rich
AFL Dyfet  Okay. My appologies...Go ahead Coach...
Coach101   I use the APW "C" system and would describe it as basically
          solid.
Coach101   I have found a few strange anomalies but not many.  Those that I
Coach101   have encountered are written up in the "C" area of this (ADV)
          forum.
NIGHT1     I want to hear what the experts have to say about Turbo Pascal.
Coach101   Mike Westerfield, held a conference a few weeks ago about the
Coach101   upcoming ByteWorks "C" compiler, and from what was being
          discussed
Coach101   in that forum, it looks like it will also be a good system.  GA
AFL Dyfet  Our next question will be from Russ.  This is an AII board,
          Night1, no Turbo
AFL Dyfet  Pascal here :).
RussBlue   Hi! From a communication with Apple Developer personnel (and other
          developers)
AFA Gary J Q = Russ, Rich
RussBlue   standpoint, is there an advantage to using APW/TML Pascal vs. TML
          Pascal
RussBlue   STandalone?
Jump Long  !
AFL Dyfet  I recall this topic discussed on one of the message
          folders...anyone wish to
AFL Dyfet  comment.  GA Jim!
Jump Long  I like the APW environment myself. You can link in assembly
          routines and data
AFA Gary J Q = Russ (Jim), Rich
AFL TimB   ? relating to the current ?
Jump Long  structures using it. On the other hand, the standalone environment
          makes
Jump Long  it easy to test NDAs since you can test them without rebooting.
Jump Long  ga
RussBlue   Are Apple Personnel communicative in TML standalone?
Jump Long  Huh?
ProDude    (I think he means conversant)
RussBlue   If I wish to talk to Appler personnel about an application (sorry)
          developed
RussBlue   in Standalone, will we understand each other?
Jump Long  I guess so :) Two or three of us in DTS use TML Pascal at times.
AFA Gary J Q = Russ (Jim, ?TimB), Rich
Matt DTS   Times of extreme distress.
AFL Dyfet  I guess we can let Tim speak now...
BillP      :)
Matt DTS   (No!  I didn't say that.  It's a bug in the AppleLink software.)
Jump Long  Now now, Matt
ProDude    he speaks!
AFL TimB   I've heard rumors of departure of TML from the GS market, any
          truth to this?
AFL Dyfet  GA Tim, we're all waiting :)
AFL Dyfet  I do not believe we have anyone here from TML at the moment who
          could answer
AFL Dyfet  that fairly.
ProDude    !
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead ProDude.
ProDude    At their last conference here on AppleLink they said that they
          would continue
AFA Gary J Q = Russ (ProDude), Rich
ProDude    to support the GS.  To me that says they haven't left the GS
          market...
AFL TimB   Thanks Pro
ProDude    at least, not to the extent that Zedcor did.
ProDude    GA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Thanks Pro.  Your question now, Rich, GA.
RussBlue   Thanks for your help.  I will check the message folder for more
          info!
RICH117    After you develop an application, what else has to be delivered to
          the end user
RICH117    are there any royalities  involved?? ga
BruceK14   ?
AFL Dyfet  Documentation would be nice :)
Matt DTS   ! (? type)
ProDude    (so would customer support)
AFL Dyfet  GO ahead Matt
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Matt), Bruce
Matt DTS   Is this "Do I owe the creator of my development system (like TML
          or Byte Works)
Matt DTS   any money?" or "How do I put GS/OS on the disk I ship?"
Matt DTS   (or neither?)
RICH117    you guessed it sports fan!
AFA Gary J Both?
Matt DTS   (He answered an either/or with "yes"!  AARRGGHH!)
Matt DTS   :-)
AFA Gary J :)
DaviesDoug ?
RICH117    sorry, I meant that I am concerned about the formare not the
          latter.
ProDude    (well done Rich :)
WBBear     ?
Matt DTS   Ah.  I can only answer the latter.  Next?  (GA)
AFL Dyfet  In regards to GS/OS, that needs to be licensed from Apple Computer
          before
AFL Dyfet  you can distribute software with it on the disk.  In regards to
          the latter,
BillP      !
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dyfet, Bill), Bruce, Doug, WBBear
AFL Dyfet  that may depend on the product.  Anyone else wish to comment on
          this?
AFL Dyfet  GA BillP
BillP      Unless there is some REAL SMALL print on your liscense...
DwightW1   what does apple charge for the license?
Coach101   ?
BillP      you owe no royalities to the development system authors
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Bill), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach
AFL TimB   !
RICH117    thanks that answered my question!
AFL Dyfet  That is normally true, Bill.  Go ahead Tim.
Coach101   !
BillP      Some liscenses lately are a little bit of problem in that...
AFL TimB   With TML Speech tools I know that you cannot use them commercially
          without...
BillP      they require you to show the name of their product when your
          boots....
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Tim, Coach), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach
AFL TimB   paying license fees to First Byte.  Also I think I recall...
AFL TimB   my TML package saying that you cannot create an application using
          more than...
BillP      Personally, I think this is a demonstration of a programmers ego
DennisDoms !
BillP      /done
AFL TimB   50% of their source code.  I'm not as sure on the last item as I
          am on the...
AFL TimB   first!
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Tim, Coach, Dennis), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach
AFL TimB   License fees,,,
Dave Lyons !
AFL TimB   to First Byte are VERYYYYY expensive
AFL TimB   (done)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, GA coach
BillP      that's if you use their source... that is a little different
Coach101   Now I am concerned.  Matt DTS ducked the question as to whether
AFL TimB   Not on the former Bill.
Coach101   I owed Apple anything if I distribute an S16 file that was
          linked
Matt DTS   (I did not.  It wasn't my turn [using the rules when it's
          conveeenient])
Coach101   with APW "C" libraries.  Did you really mean to duck that Matt?
Coach101   ga
AFL Dyfet  I think we will let Matt comment now :)
AFL TimB   :)
Matt DTS   No licensing fee of which I'm aware, and I looked fairly recently.
           GA.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I believe Dennis was next...
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dennis), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach
DennisDoms I think Byte Works also requires a license for use of some of
          their...
ProDude    ?
AFL Dyfet  I believe Dave also had a comment to add, then we will move to
          next question.
DennisDoms libraries. When in doubt, be sure and contact the compiler
          manufacturer...
DennisDoms most policies I've seen are quite reasonable.
DennisDoms GA
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dave), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach, ProDude
Dave Lyons The ByteWorks license costs $0; they just require the paperwork.
          On the
Dave Lyons TML Pascal stuff--they say your own code has to be a "significant"
          part of your
Dave Lyons finished product, I think.  This is okay, because an application
          consisting
Dave Lyons almost entirely of TML Pascal sample source code would most likely
          have some
Dave Lyons bugs anyway.  <grin>   I _like_ TML Pascal,
AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dave), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach, ProDude
Jump Long  :)
AFL TimB   LOL!!!
JSchober   :)
Dave Lyons but their sample programs do leave some "exercises in debugging"
          for the
Dave Lyons programmer to solve.  ga
Matt DTS   casual user?
AFL Dyfet  Our next question is from Bruce.
BruceK14   Are there "glue" routines for C/Pascal for Toolbox and cross
          language access or
BruceK14   must I write my own?
Matt DTS   (That's twice.  This is funky.)
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave
Dave Lyons Gee, I thought Jim would jump at this one, but....  Calling the
          toolbox from
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Dave), Doug, WBBear, Coach, ProDude
Dave Lyons either C or Pascal is no problem (you can even declare the tools
          easily
Dave Lyons yourself if the ones you want are too new to be in the provided
          interface
Dave Lyons files).  Calling Pascal routines from C is also no problem.
          Calling C routines
Dave Lyons from Pascal would require some assembly language glue code.  (Did
          I get all
Dave Lyons of that right?)  ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay, any more comments?
Coach101   !
Dave Lyons (I should point out that you want the APW vers of TML to call from
          C, not the
Dave Lyons standalone vers.)
AFL Dyfet  GA Coach.
AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Coach), Doug, WBBear, ProDude
Coach101   If your "C" routine is called by the toolbox (scroll bar action,
          etc.)
Coach101   then you will need a minor amount of either "glue" code or some
          assembly
Coach101   language to get the data bank register set correctly...   ga
AFL Dyfet  Okay.  I think we will move to Doug's question now...GA Doug.
DaviesDoug I am writing a program in PASCAL (:)) and was having trouble with
          smoothing....
DaviesDoug with printing to the laster writer......
DaviesDoug anyone have smoothing work......
DaviesDoug couldn't seem to get it to work with AWGS or paintworks either.
DaviesDoug .done.
AFL Dyfet  I think that's more an issue for print drivers.  Any other
          comments?
AFA Gary J Q = Doug, WBBear, ProDude
AFL Dyfet  I guess not.  I guess we had better get to Bear's question.  GA
          Bear.
WBBear     What is the best way to get Apple 2 Pascal V 1.3?  Thanks for any
          help.
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt.
Matt DTS   You call 1-800-282-APDA.  Either that or don black clothing and
          pray...
Matt DTS   ...at the Altar of Forgotten Languages.  GA.
AFA Gary J Q = WBBear (Matt), ProDude
AFL Dyfet  True, Matt.  Your question ProDude...GA.
Matt DTS   (The entire package costs about $75, vs. $250 when dealers sold
          it.)
ProDude    What is the fee to license GSOS for distribution?
AFA Gary J Q = ProDude
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt, get 'em :)
Matt DTS   $75, isn't it?  It may have gone up to $85 or $100 lately, but
          it's not...
Matt DTS   ...more than $100.  For that, you get the right to include
          anything or...
AFL TimB   !
Matt DTS   ...everything on SYSTEM.DISK and SYSTEM.TOOLS.  (See GS/OS TN #1.)
           GA.
AFL Dyfet  That's unlimited copies per year per product.  GA Tim.
AFL TimB   That's a flat fee, right?
AFA Gary J Is that per year?
ProDude    part 2
AFL TimB   GMTA
Mark1000   !
Matt DTS   Yes.  Unlimited copies for one product for one year.  GA.
AFA Gary J Q = ProDude (Mark)
ProDude    (I like multi-part questions)
AFL Dyfet  Gary, yes, per year.  I thought that clearification might be
          needed.  GA Mark.
Mark1000   It's a flat fee per year... (Matt said it first)  :)
ProDude    How do I go about licensing GSOS?
Mark1000   unlimited copies
Mark1000   done
Matt DTS   !
ProDude    Matt GA
AFL Dyfet  GA Matt
ProDude    :)
Matt DTS   You call Apple's Software Licensing department at (408)
          974-4667.
AFA Gary J Q = ProDude (Matt)
ProDude    done
Matt DTS   Or link them at AppleLink Apple Edition SW.LICENSE.
Matt DTS   GA.
AFL Dyfet  Do we have any more questions or comments in regards to tonight's
          topic at this
AFL Dyfet  point?
ProDude    thank you
AFA Gary J Q = <Empty>
AFL Dyfet  Well, it seems we have made good time here.  If there is nothing
          else, I will
AFL TimB   ?
AFL Dyfet  Ah, GA Tim...
Coach101   !
AFL TimB   Does Apple have the right to withhold license permission depending
          on the....
AFL TimB   nature of the product.  Benefits a competitor, in bad taste
          etc.?
Coach101   Is licensing restricted to
Coach101   Certified Developers and APple Partners or is it available in
Coach101   the general case.   ga
AFL TimB   Don't all answer at the same time!
AFL Dyfet  I don't believe licensing is restricted in any way to certified
          people.  I
AFL TimB   :)
AFL Dyfet  have not heard of Apple refusing to license before, and have no
          idea as to when
AFA Gary J Q = Tim & Coach
Matt DTS   !
AFL Dyfet  they might, but they do have that right.  Matt, I'm sure can
          clearify more :)
Matt DTS   The language is present to allow Apple to refuse or terminate the
          license...
Coach101   60+ second delay (network?)
Matt DTS   ...but I don't know of any cases where this was done.  GA.
AFL TimB   Thankx
Dave Lyons Yup, anybody can license--all you need is the $$$.
AFL TimB   Very interesting chat!
AFL Dyfet  I guess then if we have nothing else, I will move to end
          protocol...
AFA Gary J Agree!
Matt DTS   Seconded.
Dave Lyons How many Macintosh users does it take to change a lightbulb?
JSchober   hehehe
ProDude    Do we have thef food fight now?
AFL Dyfet  (Putting away protocol whips and chains), it is done then...
ProDude    only one Dave
Matt DTS   It depends on whether MultiBulb is installed or not.
JSchober   Welcome to ForumLeaderLand, Dave.  :)
Dave Lyons Just one:  he holds up the bulb & the whole universe revolves
          around him. :)
AFL TimB   None.  That's a system function?
JSchober   Grooooan...
AFL Scott  :)
ProDude    hahahahahahahahaha
AFA Gary J ooohhh...
AFL Dyfet  MacPlaymate as system software?
BillP      heeheh  Dave!   I like it!
Matt DTS   I suggest an attitude change before 4/17/89, Mr. Lyons <stern
          look>
JSchober   :-)
Matt DTS   You're not being obnoxious enough.
AFA Gary J :)
AFL TimB   Hey, Dave has his freedom for a few more days!!!!
Jump Long  Matt looking stern :--)
Dave Lyons Hey, I'm just quoting Guy Kawasaki! :)
DennisDoms Yeah, Matt!
DennisDoms I can teach Dave how to be obnoxious. :)
Coach101   Dyfet....   Get those chains away from Matt!!!
BillP      "What's the difference between the Boy Scouts and Apple.....
Matt DTS   You need to perfect phrases like "Piece of sh*t mail system
          crashes alla time."
ProDude    Dave just needs a good role model.
AFL Dyfet  Matt can do that for us on his own, Dennis...
BillP      the Boy Scouts have adult supervision
Matt DTS   ...and "6.0.WHAT???"
JSchober   LOL
AFL TimB   ROTFL!!! BILL!!!!!!
ProDude    ROTFL
AFL TimB   LOL Still!!!!
BillP      on that noe,  I will say G'night
BillP      :)
Dave Lyons Bill, were you at the NAUGC too?
Matt DTS   (That's a quote from "Odyssey", incidentally)
AFL Scott  ROTFL!! For both!!
Coach101   NoNoNo.... Webster clearly definse Pice of  as a synonym for I*M
BillP      note even
BillP      nope,  actually read that one in PC World
JSchober   Figures.  ;)
DennisDoms "Does MultiFinder have memory management?"
Matt DTS   It's still a quote from Odyssey.
BillP      It was a quote from Gausee
Dave Lyons Oh, okay.  Either Guy or Tom Weishaar used it at the conference,
       too.
Matt DTS   Does it?  Does Apple have a corporate strategy?
Jump Long  Goodnight...
AFL Dyfet  :)
Matt DTS   (well, maybe not such a good analogy) I think it does.
JSchober   Night, Jim!  :)
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Jim.
AFL Dyfet  Good Night Jim...!
Jump Long  ...poof...
AFL Scott  Matt, where is your .signature file?  Disclaimer!!;)
Matt DTS   My hard drive isn't big enough.
Dave Lyons Matt...you think MF has memory management, or you think Apple has
          a strategy?
AFL Scott  LOL!
JSchober   hehe
Matt DTS   Yes.
DennisDoms The new video card was a good sign. Just when I get really angry
          at Apple...
AFL Dyfet  Hello Joe...awfully quiet tonight, I see...
Dave Lyons So buy a Profile, Matt...they're bigger.
Matt DTS   (AARRGGHH!!)
DennisDoms they do something sensible. Rats!
JSchober   Yeah, well, I got in late, then had to leave again.  Sorry.  How'd
          it go??  :)
Matt DTS   The video card is really nifty.
JSchober   LOL Dave... ;)
ProDude    Have you used the new card, Dennis?
Matt DTS   On a IIgs, you can pick an RGB value for the key color, and the
          video...
AFA Gary J It sounds great.  (The video card)
JSchober   Is it THAT GOOD, Matt??  It looks pretty boring to me, from the
          press releases.
Matt DTS   ...can be set to show through only for that color.
DennisDoms (Profile?) No, but I Want One.
ProDude    ---===[}}} JSchober
AFL Dyfet  I just got a care package in regards to this card express air
          today :).
Matt DTS   That means you could have a regular desktop with one window of
          that color...
ProDude    No Dennis... the video card
AFL Scott  I have the developer notes.. it looks VERY interesting!
BillP      going to be brave and see if OA-Z still takes me to Apple Cafe
          See ya
Matt DTS   ...and thereby have a "live action" window with little or no
          work.
DennisDoms Video card - haven't used, want one. Profile - don't have, don't
          want.
AFL Scott  <--needs the card, tho..
ProDude    <-- needs the cash before he gets the card
Matt DTS   You can do the same in Double Hi-res as well.  It comes with IIe
          and IIgs tools
Matt DTS   (TOOL033 for the IIgs), a P8 application to set colors and an NDA
          for the IIgs.
ProDude    It's a danged expensive card!
AFL Dyfet  I have two profilers as foot stands myself...
Dave Lyons Gee, with the video overlay card you could hook a Y adapter to
          your computer's
JSchober   Yes, agreed, ProDude.  $600??
ProDude    $549 I think
Matt DTS   It's a heavy card.  It's like the most densely populated card
          we've ever done.
DennisDoms Nearest Apple II competitor is $1800, ProDude.
Dave Lyons video out & overlay it with itself.  That would be neat, eh?  :)
ProDude    Is it priced by the pound? :)
Matt DTS   It's got more stuff in a smaller space than anything but the Mega
          II.
ProDude    ouch
DennisDoms And that one doesn't handle the IIgs video modes.
JSchober   heh... the question is, why don't they make that technology
          standard in the GS,
JSchober   huh??  (sigh)
AFL Scott  But you do need to record the stuff.... if you come from VCR, you
          will need
AFL Scott  two VCRs for the card to be useful...
ProDude    It's still beyond my reach.
AFL Scott  no?
Matt DTS   And raise the base price of the system to $1800?  Hmm...
DennisDoms Does it indeed digitize? (Then I _really_ want one!)
ProDude    It might as well cost a million dollars right now.
JSchober   To $1800??  $999 <=old= base price> + $550 for the card = $1550.
          Weird math
JSchober   you have, Matt.
Dave Lyons Sure, two VCRs, or a VCR and a camera, or whatever.  Or a VCR and
          a tuner.  Or
AFL Scott  Matt..The notes didn't say anything about digitizing... does it?
ProDude    It's new math, Joe.
Dave Lyons you could just watch TV in a little window while you're using your
          computer
AFL Scott  <--doesn't think so.
Matt DTS   $1149 (=current= base price) + 550 = $1700 (off by $100)
Dave Lyons for other stuff.  I don't suppose it can shrink a picture tho, can
          it?
AFA Gary J Good question, Scott.
JSchober   It's the service charge for installation.  :-)  Oh, ok, Matt...
Matt DTS   I dn't believe so, but I haven't used it *extensively*.
JSchober   That's Dave's dream... to watch "Moonlighting" while programming.
          :-)
Dave Lyons As I understand it the card is _not_ a frame
         grabber/digitizer/whatever.
Coach101   SANE math
JSchober   Don't you mean inSANE??
DennisDoms <-- new synth on hold (again).
Matt DTS   It can't digitize, I'm pretty sure.  You could use your IIgs
          monitor as a TV,
JSchober   Anyway, folks, this talk of cards that are far too expensive for
          me is
ProDude    I just locate my desk so I can see my TV set while I'm working
          :)
JSchober   depressing.  I'm gonna leave for the night.  Y'all take care...
Matt DTS   though.  It even puts the video source on the border (edge to edge
          of screen).
Dave Lyons To watch "Moonlighting" while moonlighting?
AFL Scott  That's the way I understood, it too... The notes do mention
          interlacing, tho..
JSchober   <something like that, Dave.  ;)  >

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