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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
February 7, 1989  10:00 p.m. Eastern time
Topic: Pascal and C
Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)


AFL Jim    Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
          Pascal & C.
AFL Jim    Both languages are available in some form on both the 8 bit Apples
          and the IIGS
AFL Jim    so we'll discuss any system you want.
AFA Gary J <silence>.....
AFL Jim    Any questions to start the evening off?
Matt DTS   <it was until you ruined it, gary>
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim    (yes, no, maybe?)
AFL Marty  How about Instant Pascal?
JSchober   (it's a LULLLL, actually...)
AFL Jim    How about it? :)
Windrider5 why is there so little support for c for the iigs
JSchober   (hi ... err... Floyd.  Hmmm...)
AFL Marty  Is it still published?  Is it still copy protected?  If so, why?
AFL Floyd  <sneaking in>
Matt DTS   WR5:  What do you mean by "so little support"?
AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Windrider
Matt DTS   <uh-oh...breach of protocol.  Sorry>
AFL Marty  (Let Windrider go ahead of me)
Coach101   !
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty  :)
BillP      !
AFL Jim    GA Windrider - we'll give as much support to C as you want.
Windrider5 take the magazine CALLA.P.P.L.E. there are never any C related
          article
Matt DTS   That's because none of you talented people ever bless Cecil & Co.
          with one.
AFL Jim    There have been a couple of C articles, but nothing in the last 6
          months or so.
Matt DTS   Cecil and Kathryn have asked several times for C authors, but
          haven't gotten...
Matt DTS   ...very far yet, apparently.
Matt DTS   (I mean authors of C articles, not Mr. K and Mr. R.)
AFL Jim    The IIGS technotes that aren't in assembler are in C - I'd like to
          see a few
AFL Jim    in Pascal.
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty
Matt DTS   Well, you're in a position to do something about that, aren't you?
           :-)
JSchober   (hi Cecil!  We were just talking about you... ;)
CecilFret  Uh, oh.  What did I do now?
AFL Jim    If you're looking for sample C code, there's a lot of that, too.
JSchober   :)
AFL Jim    It's what you haven't done, Cecil :)
AFA Gary J :)
Windrider5 where do you find this sample C code
CecilFret  What haven't I done now Jim
JSchober   (we're probably ruining his otherwise great day... ;)
CecilFret  Ok guys, my spies tell me no articles on APW C, right?
AFL Jim    Windrider is looking for some C articles in Call-APPLE.
JSchober   hehehe... he's a psychic...
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty
CecilFret  Someone say right!
Matt DTS   Right!
CecilFret  GOt two in the mill right now.  One on an interface between C and
          Assembly.
AFL Jim    Check the development forum libraries - the source code category
          lists the
Matt DTS   (now that Cecil's here, I'm out of this one. GA.)
CecilFret  Second one is on C pointers.
AFL Jim    language the sample code files are in.
ScottG25   ?
CecilFret  Any C coders out there wishing to make a buck?  Our problem is we
          lack authors
CecilFret  fluent in the subject.  I certainly am not.
TKV        Good evening... I'm just on with a Pascal GS 640 grafix
          question...
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott
AFL Jim    Coach, GA
CecilFret  Matt, I can't stay long.  Got a lot of stuff to do yet tonight.
AFL Jim    Hold on TKV, we'll add you to the queue of people waiting to
          ask.
TKV        thanks
Coach101   Another twist to the question is what level of support Apple is
Coach101   giving, or going to give to C?  The language is slow, and the
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
Coach101   .h files could proably be sped up considerably .  My buring
          question
Coach101   is whether apple is going to continue with C, or to abandon it
CecilFret  Ok guys, we got above zero today for the first time in a week!
Coach101   for all practical purposes.  The latest issue of A+ contains
JSchober   [ ()()() Cecil... ;) ]
Coach101   an ad from Apple for people in their Cupertino digs and makes
          mention of
Coach101   the need for Pascal but not C.  Is Apple going to drop C? GA
AFL Jim    C is still a current product at Apple.
Matt DTS   !
AFL Jim    I haven't seen the ad so I can't comment on it.
Coach101   So is DOS 3.3 ?
CecilFret  !
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim    GA Mat
AFL Jim    t
AFL Jim    :)
Matt DTS   I'll tell you this much:  *I* haven't seen any signs it's going
          away.  GA.
AFL Jim    The same goes here, but Matt blocks my view most of the time.
AFL Jim    GA Bill
BillP      While I think Apple has been on the ball to release APW C and
          MPW/IIGS C and lots of good examples...
Coach101   Ok.   I was pleased with Tim's execllent (from a support)
          viewpoint
Matt DTS   Well, if you'd GET OUT OF MY OFFICE EVERY NOW AND THEN...!
          <grin>
BillP      I'm surprised there aren't more C compilers for the IIGS.
Coach101   article in ApDaLog....   I prefer C since I must use multiple
Coach101   machines and "C" is fast becoming a common language across all
DaviesDoug Is this open forum tonight?!
BillP      I do agree with Coach, Apple's C is a little slow...
Coach101   levels of machines (little to gargantuan).  Thanks.... GA
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
BillP      I hope it someone else comes out with one, Apple can compete
THE GIBBER (a bit?)
AFL Jim    Pascal and C, Doug.
Matt DTS   (No, Doug, there are just five of us on the floor.  <grin>  I'm
          out - GA)
CecilFret  !
BillP      ga
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Cecil), Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim    The Byte Works is still predicting a Spring release of their C, so
          that won't
AFL Jim    take long, Bill.
AFL Jim    Cecil, GA
AFL Floyd  !
BillP      isn't theirs, like Small C?
AFA Gary J Q + (Floyd)
CecilFret  Ok, I am not a C expert by any stretch of the imagination.
CecilFret  I would be if I could get pointers straightened out.  Anyway, on
          the speed
AFL Jim    No, ORCA/C is going to be an ANSI-C compiler.
CecilFret  issue.  A friend of mine taylors his .h files to include only what
          he uses.
CecilFret  As a result, his times are much faster.  GET my drift?
CecilFret  ga
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Floyd), Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim    Floyd, GA with your comment
AFL Jim    (Cecil, GET is in BASIC and PASCAL :)
AFL Floyd  I'm anxiously awaiting ORCA C myself.  I watch an episode of Star
          Trek while my APW C program
BillP      ::hysterical::
AFL Floyd  is compiling. :(  I too have used selected parts of the .h files
          to increase compile times.  Mike
Windrider5 will the transwarp GS speed up the APWC compile times
AFL Floyd  mentioned that he might add something like pre-compiled headers
          like LightSpeed C uses. ga
AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty, Scott, TKV
AFL Jim    Maty and Scott, can I move TKV up in the queue?
AFL Marty  Sure
AFL Jim    Marty
AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott
AFL Jim    Windrider, WHEN the Transwarp GS is out, it should speed up
          everything.
DaviesDoug ?
AFL Jim    TKV, go ahead with your question.
AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott, Doug
TKV        Thanks, sorry for lack of protocol : my first conf.. My question
          is
Matt DTS   (except the disk-based parts of the compile...GA)
TKV        I've got 640 colors  16 of then but can't
TKV        come up with 16 shades of grey? help?
AFL Jim    !
Matt DTS   !
DaviesDoug !
CecilFret  Gotta go people, good night
JSchober   Night, Cecil.
AFL Jim    TKV, you need to create a color table where the lowest color is
          $000, then $111
THE GIBBER Night, Cecil :)
AFA Gary J Q = TKV (Jim, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
DaviesDoug (640 mode JIM)
AFL Jim    then $222, etc all the way to $FFF which will be the brightest.
AFL Jim    ooops... I thought he said colors...
TKV        but what pen masks will yeild grey?
AFL Jim    Wchih is it, TKV?
AFL Jim    (that's which for those of you who can't read gibberish)
TKV        I've got a palette & masks which give colors (16) but can't seem
TKV        to get the penPatts for greys... :)
TKV        this is in 640 mode
AFL Jim    Matt, GA while I find where my kid has carried my books to...
Matt DTS   (gary - switch Doug and me in the comment queue - GA doug)
ScottG25   !
AFL Marty  (you mean you have your manuals at home, Jim? :)
Matt DTS   Oh, Doug's gone.  GA, Scott?
RHannon    Hello John!
AFA Gary J Doug bit the bucket.
AFA Parik  (oh oh, Matt's running the Queue!  panick!  ;)
ScottG25   Patterns for grays are just like the colors for grays except you
          use
AFL Jim    back
AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Scott, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
ScottG25   4 nibbles - in things like SpecialRect... ie $0000, $1111, up to
          $FFFF. GA
TKV        I'll give it a go... thanks Scott :)
Matt DTS   Tracy...
Matt DTS   ...that's one way to do it, but Eric Soldan of AIIDTS has another
          which...
TKV        hi Matt...
Matt DTS   ...not only can I not recall, but seems to give better results on
          the...
Matt DTS   ...LaserWriter.  Link your question (AppleLink Apple Edition) to
          AIIDTS...
Matt DTS   ...and we'll see if we can get him to reveal the secret.  (I'll
          also see if...
Matt DTS   ...I can get a tech note from him out of it.)
Matt DTS   GA
MarkMPC    :)
AFL Jim    Doug, GA
Matt DTS   Oh, quit grinning.  <smiling back>
TKV        will do.. thnks Matt :)
AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
ScottG25   !
TKV        I'm done... thanks folks
DaviesDoug Done
AFL Jim    Scott, another comment?
AFA Gary J Q + (Scott)
AFL Jim    GA
ScottG25   Matt, does Erics way have anything to do with Halftoning?
AFL Jim    (That's for you Matt - GA)
Matt DTS   You got me.  I think it's just a special palette; more I do not
          know.  Sorry.
Matt DTS   GA.
ScottG25   Thanks!
ScottG25   GA
AFL Jim    Sounds like enought interest for a technote.
Matt DTS   If you have Medley and a LaserWriter, you can check out the
          results for yoursel
AFL Jim    OK, Marty GA
MarkMPC    I've seen them.... :)
Matt DTS   f, since he used it there (pick gray scales, though).  GA (really,
          this time)
AFL Marty  -?
AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug
AFL Jim    Scott GA
AFL Jim    (with your question this time)
ScottG25   Using APW C and the standard C include files (no shell calls, or
          GS/OS calls in
ScottG25   the source) what is the easiest way to handle wildcards when
          executing a 'cat'
ScottG25   like Unix command?
Matt DTS   What does 'cat' in Unix do, for starters?
JSchober   Type a file...
ScottG25   cat is like type in the APW shell...
AFL Jim    It concatenates files together into one file to the output file.
AFL Jim    If the output file is the character output device, it "types"
          them.
Dave Lyons (Meaning it just sends files to standard-out one after another.)
ShrinkIt   (yeah, if it's redirected.. :)
Matt DTS   So where would you take wildcards - in the filename?
AFL Jim    or to a file, Dave
Dave Lyons !
ScottG25   In argv...
AFL Jim    GA Dave
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug
Dave Lyons Standard-out can _be_ a file, Jim.  Ha.  :)  Scott, if you really
          want to
Dave Lyons avoid shell calls, it seems you'll have to open up a directory and
          call
AFL Jim    :P
Dave Lyons GET_DIR_ENTRY repeatedly & write code to test the names against
          the wildcard
Dave Lyons specified.  Not a trivial task:  you'd probably be better off
          using the
Dave Lyons INIT_WILDCARD and NEXT_WILDCARD (sumthin like that) shell calls.
          ga
ScottG25   I agree, generally, Dave, but portability is an issue...The way
          I'm thinking of
AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug
ScottG25   doing it involves something like an ls call and then searching for
          the closest
ScottG25   matches.  It's not too easy, tho.
Dave Lyons Well, gee...the _portable_ way is for the shell to do all the
          wildcard
Dave Lyons expansion.  "ls" isn't even an APW command unless you alias it.
          (Does the
Dave Lyons SHELL shell command expand aliases?)
ScottG25   I never said it was going to run under APW.... I did say that it
          had to avoid
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug
ScottG25   shell calls, tho.  If you try to pipe a wildcard type into a
          character output
DaviesDoug !
ScottG25   routine that searches for the end of file under Apw, EOF seems to
          be rather
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave, Doug), Doug
ScottG25   quickly ignored.
ScottG25   So I'm staying AWAY from APW in this little ditty.
DaviesDoug The GSOS calls sound like the way to go to me........
DaviesDoug all this on an itty bitty apple.....try a UNIX machine
Coach101   !
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Doug, Coach), Doug
AFL Jim    Dave, Doug - are you done?
DaviesDoug .done.
ScottG25   Funny thing coach... the exact routine I  am talking about works
          under Unix.
AFL Jim    GA Coach
ScottG25   No not coach.. I meant doug... sorry..
Coach101   Scott, are you having problems recognizing the EOF when reading
Coach101   from <standard input> ?
ScottG25   Yep!
Coach101   Are you useing GsOs/ProDos16 reads?
ScottG25   What ever <stdio.h> does, I'm doing...
ScottG25   I haven't broken it out or used NiftyList on it, tho.
Coach101   Dont know there, but with a GsOs read a transfer count
Coach101   of 0 (zero) with the first byte of the input buffer (the byte
          that
AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Coach), Doug
Coach101   was not transferred!) set to zero (0) means EOF.  GA
ScottG25   Ah... ok....I'll look for that then... Thanks!
ScottG25   Done..
AFL Jim    Doug, your up on the question queue. GA
DaviesDoug Has anyone had any luck with Readln's or Writeln's in a CDA in
          either ORCA....
AFL Jim    (you're)
DaviesDoug or TML pascal!
AFL Jim    They work in ORCA.
DaviesDoug Not on mine
DaviesDoug have version 1.2, the most recent!
AFL Jim    Have you started the texttools?
DaviesDoug No, should I?  ORCA doesn't put that in my code?
AFA Gary J Q = Doug
AFL Jim    and initialized them as Pascal devices?
DaviesDoug Great, THANKS!!!!
AFA Gary J Another satisfied customer...  :)
DaviesDoug ?
AFL Jim    GA Doug, you still have the floor/
DaviesDoug Ok, one more question since the queue is empty........
DaviesDoug The APW manual says that in the Advanced linker you can specify a
          KIND field...
AFL Jim    (ut oh)
DaviesDoug that is one WORD....I can only get it to recognize one byte....
Matt DTS   !
AFL Jim    GA Matt
DaviesDoug If the value is bigger than one byte the linker tells me it's too
          large...
AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt)
Matt DTS   That's because the APW Manual was written to descibe OMF 2.0,
          which the Linker
DaviesDoug I've talked this over with DTS....just wanted more input
AFL Jim    When the time is right
DaviesDoug and create conversation
DaviesDoug .done matt.
Matt DTS   doesn't generate.  (I finally tracked this down in an ERS today.)
          Ran out of
Matt DTS   bits in the one-byte field, so it was expanded.  I think COMPACT
          might let...
Matt DTS   ...you set it, but I haven't tried in a long time.  GA.
DaviesDoug doesn't....but I wrote a utility.....
DaviesDoug that will do it....as soon as JIM posts it!
DaviesDoug .done.
AFA Gary J <just got it in the library>
Dave Lyons How does the util work?  Changes kind of first segment, or what?
DaviesDoug you type..... OMF <pathname> <segname> $<kind>
AFA Gary J Q = Doug
Dave Lyons Ah...good.
DaviesDoug lets you change any segment ............ DONE...
DaviesDoug must compact it first though.... Really done!
AFL Jim    Look at that, it's time to call this meeting to a close and
          there's no
Matt DTS   Does it return an error if you try it on an OMF 1.0 file?
AFL Jim    questions left.
Matt DTS   (well, almost none.)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim    Maaaaaaaaattt
DaviesDoug Yes, of course matt,  I'm am azzz good programmer!!!
Matt DTS   (ok)
Matt DTS   See y'all next week, then!
JSchober   Night, Matt...
AFL Jim    Thanks for coming tonight, everyone!
Dave Lyons Night, Matt...
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt.
ShrinkIt   bye matt
AFC Mark   Night, Matt
Matt DTS   G'night, all!
AFL Jim    See ya tomorrow, Mat
DaviesDoug Open conference if anyone wants to stay
AFL Jim    right, Doug
DaviesDoug I have lot of questions....as matt knows
Dave Lyons Jim, see if you can find out about the Note Seq priority
          question...I don't
Dave Lyons know where else to look.
AFL Jim    I've noticed that, too, Doug and I've only been out here a week.
DaviesDoug :)
AFL Jack   Jim, can you answer a 'hardware' question for me?
AFL Jim    I've got to go read the boards. Remember, a contest is starting
          this month in
Dave Lyons We can try, Jack....
AFL Jim    both the Mac and Apple II Development Forums. I'll have details up
          online this
AFL Jim    week.
AFL Jack   what is the size of the GS ROM?  I want to update an older GS .
AFL Jim    Sure Jack
JSchober   128K, Jack. Banks FE and FF.
DaviesDoug Anyone know how to get a CMS drive to work with the Apple SCSI
          card?
AFL Jack   ok, thanks!  :)
AFL Jim    Mine's about an inch by an inch and a half :)
Dave Lyons Yes, both ROM 00 and ROM 01 are 128K.
AFA Gary J :)  <I was thinking the same thing... :) >
AFL Jack   <groan>  California like getting to you, huh Jim?
AFL Jim    yep
JSchober   Doug... well, it'll work just fine, but the >32 meg volumes must
          be partitioned
AFL Jack   all this sunshine....
AFL Marty  <ugh>
AFA Gary J Jim, you need to have your OA-I ID changed.  :)
JSchober   using GS/OS or whatever.  The CMS hardware partitioning will
          conflict with the
DaviesDoug Mine won't even be recognized....
DaviesDoug I have the version c roms
JSchober   Apple software partitioning.
DaviesDoug It works with the CMS card just fine
AFL Jim    Yep, I just got a "real" address today.
AFA Gary J You found a house?
AFL Jack   Anyone know where I can get an apple SCSI card for a good price?
JSchober   Can you access/format it with the ADU, Doug?
Dave Lyons Gary, Jim's info is right...he's _from_ Kansas City...doesn't say
          he's actually
Dave Lyons there! :)
DaviesDoug Any pins need setting on the card?
AFL Jim    You must reinitialize, Doug
DaviesDoug NO
AFA Gary J hehe!  Right, Dave.
JSchober   Ummm... (does the Apple card HAVE pins??)  I think all ya' gotta
          do is format
JSchober   it.  However, on a >32 meg volume, the first partition WILL be
          accessible with
DaviesDoug Well...this really isn't a CMS drive....
JSchober   the Apple card, no matter what.
DaviesDoug it's a make-shift drive.....
JSchober   (oh, it's not a CMS drive... that changes things... :)
DaviesDoug it's a conair drive (it's a SCSI drive)

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