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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
December 27, 1988  10:00 pm Eastern
Topic: Apple II Operating Systems
Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)


AFL Jim    Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. I hope you're have a
AFL Jim    season! Tonight, the beginning topic of discussion is Apple II
          Operating System
AFL Jim    s
AFL Jim    ^  a hanging s
AFA Gary J :)
Uhura      Lonely little s
ScottG25   I got a turbo mouse, a desk, and a radio controlled car..
AFL Jim    ANyone have any questions to start the discussion off?
Uhura      B-P
Uhura      How do you write an FST (in 25 words or less) B-)
THE GIBBER You don't ;)
Dave Lyons You don't--and if you do, it takes more than 25 words
AFL Jim    Ask Apple politely, Uhura
THE GIBBER Just a few more....David....
Dave Lyons I can to it in 6 words:  "Apple, PLEASE write a _____ FST."
ScottG25   LOL!!
SteveDodd  Yes, like AppleWorks GS or DIcED if you click on a file it auto
          load the prog +
THE GIBBER LOL.... How bout this one...... When is the volume 2 of the GSOS
          reference
AFL Jim    What FST (File System Translators) for GS/OS is everyone waiting
          for?
THE GIBBER going to be avaliable?????
SteveDodd  plus the file. Does the OS support this ? if so how ?
Uhura      DOS 3.2 :)
THE GIBBER HFS
AFA Gary J Right, Uhura... :)
DennisDoms MS-DOS
Dave Lyons Santa, I want FSTs for HFS, MFS, DOS 3.3, Pascal.
AFL Jim    OK, Steve first...
Dave Lyons Steve D, the MessageCenter is the mechanism that supports passing
          the pathnames
ScottG25   HFS... Hmmm. I almost said MFS... only I didn't...never
          mind...:)
AFA Gary J Q = Steve
Dave Lyons of programs to Open and Print; message type #1 is defined & used
          by the Finder
AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave)
Dave Lyons and by any applications that choose to support it, including AWGS,
          DIcEd, and
Dave Lyons probably lots of others.  (DIcEd won't actually print, but it'll
          tell you that
Dave Lyons it can't.  Printing is done by selecting icons in the Finder and
          choosing
Dave Lyons Print from the File menu.)
Dave Lyons (ga!)
Dave Lyons [Oh--I believe MessageCenter -is- described in the final
          Addison/Wesley tbox
Dave Lyons ref, vol II, under the tool locator chapter.]
AFL Jim    John, you're question is next. Volume II of the GS/OS manual is
          still being
AFL Jim    revised to get it to APDA beta level.
ScottG25   ?
AFL Jim    We should see it sometime very soon.
AFA Gary J Q = Scott
AFL Jim    Scott, a question (GA)
ScottG25   I was just going to ask if anyone has seen the manual, but
          realized that if you
ScottG25   have you couldn't say anything about it... sorry. :(
AFL Jim    It looks much like Volume 1 on the outside ;)
DwightW1   ?
ScottG25   Paper, eh?
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight
AFL Jim    GA Dwight
THE GIBBER ?
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, GIBBER
DwightW1   my question is very basic......
DwightW1   how do you get gs/os up and operating from a hard disk drive?
Dave Lyons Use the Installer!
Dave Lyons (It's on the 2nd disk you get.)  The trick is that if you have a
          SCSI drive,
Dave Lyons first you need to boot up a copy of GS/OS that has the right
          driver installed,
Dave Lyons which means you need to use the Installer to install that driver
          on a 3.5"
Dave Lyons copy of the system disk, reboot with that, and then use the
          Installer again,
Dave Lyons now that the system sees your hard drive.
Dave Lyons (did that help?)
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight (Dave), GIBBER
AFL Jim    Dave, that's only needed if you're going to use Apple's SCSI card.
          GS/OS builds
HdRockCafe (evening)
AFL Jim    a generic driver that should work with most other hard drives.
DwightW1   ....plenty....i must hav missed this in the instructions
AFL Jim    (like the Chinook I'm using).
Dave Lyons Right--I should have said "Apple SCSI card" above, not SCSI drive.
           You'll need
Dave Lyons the above trickiness only in cases where you need a special driver
          to get
AFL Jim    Dwight, check out the paperback manual, "Apple IIGS System Tools"
          that comes
Dave Lyons GS/OS to recognize your drive.
HdRockCafe ?
AFA Gary J Q = Dwight, GIBBER, HdRockCafe
AFL Jim    with GS/OS from your dealer. It has step-by-step instructions for
          Installer.
HdRockCafe Ok
DwightW1   will do...thanks!
AFL Jim    John, you have the next question. GA
THE GIBBER How bout updates to the toolbox manuals for GSOS... And A GSOS
          specific APW?
THE GIBBER any Ideas?
AFL Jim    !
AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (Jim), HdRockCafe
AFL Jim    There is an update to the toolbox manuals available from APDA.
SteveDodd  ?
AFL Jim    I'm sure Mike Westerfield is working on a GS/OS update to ORCA
          (same as APW).
DwightW1   ...except that it is not available...
AFA Gary J Q = GIBBER (Jim), HdRockCafe, Steve
THE GIBBER I must have overlooked that one in my Apdalog ;)
THE GIBBER thanks ga
AFL Jim    It was when I ordered it, Dwight.
AFL Jim    HdRockCafe, you have the next question.
HdRockCafe I am very frustrated, I have been trying to use the Apple
          operating system disk
ScottG25   Funny, I got mine from them!
DwightW1   i want it also, talked with apda..
AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve
DwightW1   said it is in print
Coach101   ?
AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach
HdRockCafe and I need some help, can anyone suggest where I can get some
          tutors?
HdRockCafe or a good beginners book
Dave Lyons !
HdRockCafe ga
AFL Jim    Which operating system ProDOS or GS/OS?
HdRockCafe Well any of them, I just don't know how the operate
AFA Gary J Q = HdRock (Jim, Dave), Steve, Coach
HdRockCafe I would like to beable to do some simple tasks using the operating
          systems
Dave Lyons Do you have the "Apple IIgs system disk users guide" or
          whatever?
Scapino    Can you be more.....specific?
AFA Gary J From a programmers standpoint, or just with existing
          applications?
HdRockCafe Yes, I am the IIGS system disk guide, I would like to work with
          existing
HdRockCafe applications
HdRockCafe opps I have
Dave Lyons :)
AFL Jim    Do you want to program with the operating system or just use the
          Finder?
AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach
HdRockCafe Jim, I don't even know this Difference :)
HdRockCafe Don't LAUGH
HdRockCafe :)
AFL Jim    Well... the manuals that come with the system are the only thing
          I've see that
AFL Jim    tell you how to use the applications supplied by Apple (the
          Finder, Installer,
AFL Jim    etc). If you want to start programming with Apple's operating
          systems, there
AFL Jim    are several good books published by both Apple (through
          Addison-Wesley) and by
AFL Jim    others. For using the operating system from BASIC, you might want
          to get
AFL Jim    "ProDOS Inside and Out" byt Dennis Doms and Tom Wieshaar. It
          explains the
AFL Jim    commands and gives lots of programming examples.
AFL Jim    Gary Little should have a new book out sometime in the next couple
          of months on
AFA Gary J Q = HdRock, Steve, Coach
AFL Jim    programming with ProDOS and GS/OS. It is a total rewrite of his
          older book,
AFL Jim    "Apple ProDOS: Advanced Features for Programmers"
HdRockCafe Thanks for the informations, next time I will try to be more
          specific w/?. :)
AFL Jim    Dave, do you have anything to add?
Dave Lyons Nope, you dun good :)
AFL Jim    OK, Steve. GA with your question.
SteveDodd  I have the toolbox vol ii open, could you give me a brief:) view
          of how to pass
AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach
AFA Parik  ?
SteveDodd  parameters with the "MessageCenter" ie
          action,type,messageHandle?
AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach, Parik
AFL Jim    GA Dave, you've worked with this more than I have.
SteveDodd  and what are the different ranges for these types! :)
SteveDodd  I have orca/pascal
Dave Lyons Ok, just a sec here....
Dave Lyons There are 3 things you can do:  post a message, get a message, and
          delete a
AFL Jim    chapter 24, Dave
AFL Jim    :)
SteveDodd  page 24-14
Dave Lyons message.  The first parameter is 1, 2, or 3 to specify add, get,
          delete,
Dave Lyons respectively.
Dave Lyons For all of these things, you need a message id number from 1 to
          $ffff, and the
Dave Lyons only currently-defined type is 1, which is used for passing a list
          of pathnames
Dave Lyons to applications from Finder-like things.  (Types 2 and 3 are also
          used by the
Dave Lyons Finder, but they are not documented & are subject to change.)
          Now, to post a
Dave Lyons message you need to have your data in a memory block that has been
          allocated
Dave Lyons thru the memory manager, so you have a handle to it.  You pass the
          handle as
Dave Lyons the 3rd parameter to MessageCenter (the msg id was the second
          parameter).  The
Dave Lyons memory block with your message starts with 4 reserved bytes (room
          for 1 pointer
Dave Lyons ) and a 2-byte copy of the message ID (an "integer" in a
          high-level language);
AFA Gary J Q = Steve, Coach, Parik
Dave Lyons then you can have as many bytes of actual data as you want (well,
          up to 64K,
Dave Lyons I think).  In Pascal, you would declare something like TYPE
          MessageRec = RECORD
Dave Lyons  Next: longint; MessType: integer; MessData: [whatever] END;  TYPE
          MessagePtr =
Dave Lyons  ^MessageRec.  For getting a message, you just need a handle to
          any memory
Dave Lyons block, possibly even a zero-byte-long memory block, and the
          MessageCenter
AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave), Coach, Parik
Dave Lyons resizes your handle's block to whatever size is needed & copies
          the message
Dave Lyons into it.  Questions?
AFL Jim    !
AFA Gary J GA Jim
AFL Jim    So, an application should make a call to MessageCenter with a
          getmessage call
SteveDodd  Thanks! great, next how easy is it to write GS/OS installer
          scripts ?
AFA Parik  !
AFL Jim    before doing anything else to see if it should load or print a
          file. Right,
AFL Jim    Dave?
Dave Lyons Right--you mean like asking the user what file to open?  Yes, it
          should check
Dave Lyons the MessageCenter first.
AFA Gary J Q = Steve (Dave, Jim, Parik), Coach, Parik
AFL Jim    Sounds easy.
Dave Lyons Steve, installer scrips should be pretty easy to write--there is a
          document
Dave Lyons someplace describing the format; I don't know if it was just sent
          to
Dave Lyons certified developers or what.  Anybody remember?
AFA Parik  Yup
AFA Parik  the APDA version should have it also
ScottG25   It's in the release notes, no?
AFL Jim    It comes with the "Apple IIGS System Disk 4.0" from APDA.
AFA Parik  not the boxed edition Scott.
ScottG25   Ok, thanks!
SteveDodd  Thanks, it's great to get such a good answer, If anyone wants to
          buy TML pascal
SteveDodd  let me know after forum Ive got orca, ga
AFL Jim    OK, Coach. Your turn to ask a question. GA
AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik
THE GIBBER ?
Coach101   I may have missed it in the previous conversation, but...
AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John
Coach101   How the heck do you train finder to know what application
Coach101   to invoke for a given document? ga
Dave Lyons !  (!!!!!)
AFL Jim    GA Dave
Dave Lyons Well, the _manual_ says the Finder will figure it out by itself if
          you double-
Dave Lyons click on a document of a certain type, get the complaint that it
          doesn't know
Dave Lyons what to run for that kind of document, and then launch the right
          applicatin
Dave Lyons yourself next; but I believe this has not been implemented.  (Yell
          if you know
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave), Parik, John
AFA Parik  !
Dave Lyons differently!)  SO--what you do is use an ICON EDITOR like my DIcEd
          (Desktop
Dave Lyons Icon Editor, avail in AUT libraries, Shareware for $15), or Paul
          Elseth's
Dave Lyons IconEd, also Shareware for $15 and available in the same place.
          You create
THE GIBBER (blatent plug)
Dave Lyons an icon matching a particular filetype and/or auxiliary type
          and/or filename
AFL Jim    (hehehe)
AFA Gary J hehe
SteveDodd  !
Dave Lyons pattern, and you fill in "application pathname" = the name of the
          progam
Dave Lyons the Finder should run when you Open or Print that kind of
          document.  ga
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Dave, Parik, Steve), Parik, John
AFL Jim    Parik, a comment? GA
THE GIBBER !
AFA Parik  Is that what the AppleWorks GS 2nd installer does?
Coach101   Thanks....  It does not appear to be implemented in the
Coach101   "for sale" GsOs.   Thanks for the info.....
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Parik, Steve, John), Parik, John
Dave Lyons Parik, dunno but can check.  Just installed AWGS today, and I did
          it myself
Dave Lyons before I realized they provided installer scripts! :)
ScottG25   !
AFA Parik  :-) dave
AFA Parik  (Real programmers don't use scripts?  :)
AFL Jim    Steve, do you have a comment?
AFA Gary J Q = Coach (Steve, John, Scott), Parik, John
Coach101   Scripts are for "slotless" computers!
SteveDodd  yes, scripts are very powerful !! the are used by many
          programmers!
AFL Jim    OK John, GA with your comment.
THE GIBBER If you fill out the application launch the application will
          launch; however
THE GIBBER correct me if I am wrong... It will run the application, but won't
          open the
Dave Lyons (Real Programmers would rather know exactly what files have been
          copied where,
Dave Lyons so they do it from their favorite command shell....)
THE GIBBER file.  You have the application running but the file isn't
          loaded.... at least
THE GIBBER that is what has happened when I have tried that route ga :)
AFL Jim    John, that is correct unless the application supports the
          MessageCenter calls
AFL Jim    we were discussing earlier.
AFL Jim    Scott, your comment... GA
SteveDodd  They can be used for debugging purposes, and burning in systems I
          know Apollo
SteveDodd  Computer uses them!
ScottG25   Geez you guys are good, you both got my comment in two swoops!!:)
          GA
AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John
Dave Lyons !
AFL Jim    Dave, GA
SteveDodd  I agree the scripts should let you know what is being copied ! if
          not I think
SteveDodd  that they are poorly written!!!
Dave Lyons BTW, BASIC.LAUNCHER is another application that recognizes the
          MessageCenter;
Dave Lyons it passes the first pathname along to BASIC.SYSTEM's startup
          buffer (the old
Coach101   Let me know what was copied and deleted in a file or
Dave Lyons convention for ProDOS 8 SYS files).  I think it does this even if
          you choose
Coach101   hardcopy.   I sure like to know who changed waht!
Dave Lyons Print after selecting a BASIC program, actually :)  It still just
          runs it.  ga
AFA Gary J Q = Coach, Parik, John
AFL Jim    Parik, your turn to question. GA
AFA Parik  Can anyone tell me how to turn off the cursor in the Orca & APW
          shells?  I
AFA Parik  wrote a utility for Orca that uses the GS/OS disk access calls,
          and when its
AFA Parik  the users turn to change the filetype, you use the arrow keys to
          change it.
AFA Parik  Well, the cursor gets in the way and it looks sort of ugly, I
          moved the cursor
AFL Jim    !
AFA Parik  out a little but its still blemished.  :)
AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Jim), John
AFA Parik  (I've tried $E0C000, _Readchar, and $E0C00F)
AFL Jim    Print a ASCII $05, Parik.
AFA Parik  Aha.  Thanks!
AFL Jim    (or $85)
AFL Jim    $06 or $86 is cursor on.
Dave Lyons BTW, at leat one manual has the $05 and $06 (ctrl-e and ctrl-f)
          BACKWARDS, so
AFL Jim    $05 or $85 is cursor off.
Dave Lyons try it the other way if it doesn't work.  The Firmware manual, I
          think.
AFL Jim    I always find it fastest in Gary Little's "Exploring..." book.
AFA Parik  Ok, will do.  Thanks
AFA Gary J Q = John
AFL Jim    John, you have the last official question. GA
THE GIBBER This is totally off track.....  I haven't published anything I
          have programmed
AFL Jim    (what track? :)
AFA Gary J :)
THE GIBBER now that I am getting serious about it I am in the process of
          becoming
THE GIBBER Certified with Apple.... However I am running into problems
          ......Like the
THE GIBBER business plan....What do they want on that.... I am getting
          conflicting
THE GIBBER opinoins on that subject....some say to make it a formal document
          and others
THE GIBBER say to make it very informal.....  Can someone give a poor
          programmer some
THE GIBBER advise on this matter?
THE GIBBER ga
AFL Jim    Hmmm... that's a good question that I'm not sure what to tell you
          on. I know
AFA Gary J Q = John
AFL Jim    people that are certified on shareware and that doens't take very
          much of a
AFL Jim    formal business plan. I think the general idea is to prove to
          Apple that you're
AFL Jim    serious about marketing a product for Apple computers. Once you've
          done that,
AFL Jim    they'll be ready to help.
THE GIBBER It is just that I am getting conflicting statements on that
          part.... I
Dave Lyons !
AFL Jim    ga Dave
Dave Lyons Yes, if you're _already_ distributing a product, you _don't_ need
          a business
DwightW1    IN talking about certification...i've been told apple is
          only....
Dave Lyons plan.  You might want to describe your product as "private
          direct-mail sales
Dave Lyons from home" or something rather than "Shareware" (but who knows,
          maybe that's
Dave Lyons Nth-hand info, where N is too large.... :)
THE GIBBER Have a 50 hour week and I use most of the rest of the time on the
          computer so
AFA Parik  Try putting your goals, expenditures, and any profits you hope to
          have.  They
AFA Parik  will return the form if you do not have enough information, and
          ask you to send
AFA Parik  it back.
THE GIBBER not much time left for other stuff
DwightW1   interested in Mac programmers,....is this true?
AFL Jim    Not true Dwight.
DwightW1   ...thank the lord!
THE GIBBER The last time I was on the phone with developer services (to get
          the
AFA Gary J Q = John
THE GIBBER application) They asked me what the main thrust of the development
          was and I
THE GIBBER said Apple //gs and they really pleased.....They said that they
          were looking
THE GIBBER for more //gs development.
THE GIBBER ga
AFL Jim    Apple has been advertising for both Apple II and Mac Engineers
          lately and I
AFL Jim    know several Apple II programmers that have been hired there
          recently.
AFL Jim    They are interested both inside and outside the company.
AFA Parik  (I hear whole staffs of online employees have been employed :-)
AFL Jim    for something called AppleLink I think, Parik.
THE GIBBER LOL
Coach101   ?
AFL Jim    GA Caoch
AFL Jim    Coach (oops)
AFA Parik  I thought it was McDonalds...:)
ScottG25   LOL, Parik!!
THE GIBBER I am in a den of Certified Developers ahhhhhghhghghgh!!!!!!!! ;)
Coach101   Dumb one again....   AUT libraries?  Translation please
DwightW1   ...at least it sounds good for the //gs programmer
AFA Gary J That's MAC Donalds, Parik
AFA Parik  hehe
AFL Jim    AppleLink Apple II Utilities Forum Libraries.
AFL Jim    = AUT
SteveDodd  ?
Coach101   Thanks....
Dave Lyons Coach, that means you can hit Apple-K, AUT, return, and then
          choose Software
Dave Lyons Libraries to get there.
AFL Jim    Use the keyword AUT to get there fast.
AFL Jim    GA Steve
SteveDodd  Do you know if apple is working on improving APW C?
AFL Jim    No word, Steve.
THE GIBBER I had a friend that was programming a "Database, Learning, and
          Telecom" program
THE GIBBER He was going to call it "Mac DLT" ;)
AFA Parik  haha
AFL Jim    I'd like to thank you all for coming to this conference tonight.
          Stick around
AFL Jim    and chat as long as you want.
Coach101   re: APW C: They still have not found that sysCall != SysCall
AFA Gary J He'd probably have trademark problems with that one, John!  :)
DwightW1   dave, jim i want to thank you for the info received..really
          appreciate it
SteveDodd  ditto
THE GIBBER NO..............;)
AFL Jim    Coach, C is case sensitive.
Dave Lyons Dwight, you're welcome.
AFL Jim    Dwight, anytime!
AFA Parik  Thanks for the cursor info.  :)
THE GIBBER Dave.....The info you gave was as good as goal..... A regular
          fountian of info
SteveDodd  I just find that APW C is just to slow !
Dave Lyons (You too, Steve, if that ditto was referring to Dwight's thanx.)
Coach101   I know that....  Look at CINCLUDES/GSOS.H in the latest APDA
Coach101   release.   It does not know it!
AFL Jim    Anyone want the address for Developer Services (to ask about
          certification
AFL Jim    info)?
DwightW1   well...good night....will tell you how i come out with gs/os on my
          hard drive
Dave Lyons Yes, Jim, and the GSOS.H does have the problem Coach is talking
          about!
AFA Parik  Night Dwight!
THE GIBBER <--------Waiting on Transwarp GS before tackling C compiling :)
Coach101   Why not
ScottG25   Gibber... Good reason!!:)
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Dwight
SteveDodd  I am spoiled, I program on a sequent computer at school the C
          implementation is
SteveDodd  much better!
DwightW1   oh...decided to stick around for that address
THE GIBBER Should be out in January...... if those guys at AE didn't give my
          dealership
AFL Jim    Developer Programs, Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani, MS-51W,
          Cupertino, CA
AFL Jim    95014
THE GIBBER the wrong information
DwightW1   telephone #?
AFA Parik  I can imagine it now, The Transwarp GS and the new set of
          technotes on my
AFA Parik  door in January at the same time...:-)
THE GIBBER Goodnight.....folks....  I have to get off the net now.....
          :Parik
AFA Parik  Night Jon!
AFL Jim    Phone number is... (408) 974-4897

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