Path: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!Default
From:
[email protected] (Scott Eiler)
Newsgroups: alt.support.childfree,alt.support,alt.answers,news.answers
Subject: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for alt.support.childfree
Followup-To: alt.support.childfree
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 00 20:13:10 GMT
Organization: SEILER (Supreme Evil Intellectual Lord Emperor of Reality)
Lines: 686
Approved:
[email protected]
Message-ID: <
[email protected]>
X-Trace: gkYPD1AMhrS/vbIW74sI3zdURl2uIA8aO2RUJrtZR0I=
X-Complaints-To:
[email protected]
NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Apr 2000 21:13:56 GMT
Summary: The one thing we have in common is: we don't want our own children.
Posting-Frequency: Twice a month
Archive-Name: alt-support-childfree/faq
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4
Xref: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu alt.support.childfree:93051 alt.support:16461 alt.answers:48656 news.answers:182476
Childfree By Choice Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
[Huh?] Here is the list of Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for the
alt.support.childfree Usenet newsgroup. This FAQ has been regularly
posted to alt.support.childfree, alt.answers, and news.answers since 1
November 1997. Its master copy is available on the Web at
http://www.ultranet.com/~seiler/cbcfaq.htm. The master copy has internal
and external HTML links to aid in navigation.
This document now contains a link to Breeder Troll Bingo, which makes an
excellent guide on how *not* to post here.
If you have comments, either post to alt.support.childfree, or e-mail me,
or both. My address is
[email protected].
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Disclaimer: The information in this document is a matter of opinion, as is
the entire newsgroup it represents. As such, nobody here takes
responsibility for incorrect or inaccurate information in this document,
beyond correcting the error in the document.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Contents:
* Terminology:
1. What's the difference between childfree and childless?
2. I'm infertile; can I be childfree?
3. What do all those acronyms and other strange terms mean?
* Support:
1. How difficult is it to get a tubal/vasectomy or hysterectomy?
2. Where else can I go for support?
* About the Group:
1. What is the charter statement of alt.support.childfree, and why
should I care?
2. Why does alt.support.childfree exist?
3. So, you all hate children?
4. Don't people hate you for your unpopular stance?
* Posting Guidelines:
1. Can I post here if I like kids but don't want my own?
2. If I'm a parent, can I post here?
3. What kind of posts should I avoid writing?
4. Why are there arguments and negative postings here?
5. Why all the off-topic postings?
6. Why does this group complain about children all the time?
* Snappy Comebacks:
1. But you were children once!
2. But children are our future!
3. What if your parents had felt that way?
4. Don't you worry about who will take care of you when you are
older unless you have children?
5. Why do you think you have anything of value to say about
children, parents, or childrearing?
6. But you'd be such a good parent!
7. Children are just like very small adults, and you can help them!
8. It takes a village to raise a child...
Links
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
* Terminology:
1. What's the difference between childfree and childless?
+ "Childless" people want them and physically can't, or don't
have them and are thinking about having them. "Childfree"
people don't want them, don't have them and are positive
they don't want them. (Rabbit)
+ Childfree means that you don't have children, aren't going
to have children, and are happy about this. Childless means
that you don't have children, aren't going to have
children,
and wish you could. Personally, I think both words and the
distinction between them are *extremely* useful. (Jennie
D-O'C)
2. I'm infertile; can I be childfree?
+ If you've decided that you don't want children, you're
childfree, regardless of whether or not you're actually
fertile and have to therefore work hard at *staying*
childfree. (Jennie D-O'C)
+ I am child free - I made a choice despite my subfertility.
I
am not childless - I could still have a child, but, I don't
want to have a child on anybody's terms but my own. My life
is fulfilled and complete without children,
thankyouverymuch. (Cinnamontoast)
3. What do all those acronyms and other strange terms mean?
+ CBC and CFC = Childfree By Choice, meaning we really Really
want no children. Most people who post to
alt.support.childfree are not only proud of being CBC,
we're
smug about it.
+ The following terms may appear in message headers, to help
categorize messages. If you use these terms in your
messages
headers when appropriate, many people who just skim the
newsgroup will appreciate it.
+ XP = crosspost.
+ OT = off topic (according to the group charter).
+ TR = Troll Response.
+ For many other terms one might encounter in
alt.support.childfree, such as "PNB", "BNP", "breeder" and
"sprog", check out the ASCF "Lexicon of Spawn" at:
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/7404/.
* Support:
1. How difficult is it to get a tubal/vasectomy or hysterectomy?
How
bad is the scarring from a tubal ligation? How soon can I (go to
work, exercise, bungee-jump) after a tubal ligation?
+ I had a much easier time, before and after my tubal, than I
thought I would. My primary-care dr. approved my request
for
a tubal referral (at the ripe old age of 27 ;> ) with very
few questions asked. I had the surgery on a Friday, and was
back to work on Monday. By that time, I didn't even need
painkillers, although I couldn't do any heavy lifting for
about two weeks after I got my tubes tied. Physically, it's
pretty much business as usual--I have a normal sex drive, I
ovulate, I have normal menstrual cycles. Emotionally, I've
decided my family's problems with my decision are just
that--THEIR problems--and I do not need to make them MINE.
I
know I made the right choice for me. (Marisa Wood)
+ Keep in mind that the rate of failure for a tubal is much
higher than doctors are willing to admit, and the rate of
failure is higher the younger you are. Make sure that your
doctor uses the absolute most dependable method. If he
jokes
around about failure, tell him to drop dead and find
yourself a doctor who cares about your desire to avoid
pregnancy. (Kettir)
+ It (the vasectomy) was most undignified. But painless at
the
time. And it doesn't hurt much now, though it is a bit
uncomfortable sitting around with ice in my pants. My only
regret about the surgery is that I waited this long to do
it. (Karl Zadoc)
+ In my experience, if you're female, doctors will at the
very
least ask you lots of personal questions and make you
undergo psychological counseling if you want to try to get
a
tubal before you've had children. Most will refuse you
outright. I find this extremely ironic, since it's possible
to choose to change your life permanently and become a
*parent* as early as fourteen or so, but if a healthy
28-year-old woman wants to get herself sterilized, that's
not allowed. (Jennie D-O'C)
2. Where else can I go for support?
+ Planned Parenthood -- that's who helped me out. (Rabbit)
+ The "LivingFree" messageboard
(
http://www.dork.com/livingfree/) is available, as is its
companion board, "Living Childfree - is it for me?"
(
http://www.dork.com/livingfree/lcfindex.html).
The first one is for people who have made a decision and
want to hang out with cf and cf-friendly types, but talk
about lotsa stuff, not just being cf. The second one is a
place for fencesitters and cfers to interact, specifically
on the topic on living cf. (Sarah)
* About the Group:
1. What is the charter statement of alt.support.childfree, and why
should I care?
+ The charter statement is as follows:
alt.support.childfree provides information, discussion and
a
supportive environment for people who choose or are in the
process of choosing to remain child-free. This is not a
newsgroup for anyone trying to bash the childless state;
here, being childless is not something that has to be
defended. (Control message posted by Jonathan Grobe, 12
January 1996.)
+ Violation of a newsgroup charter is considered to be
abusive
behavior by many ISPs. For instance, Deja News states:
'Examples as to what may be considered abusive situations
are: articles off-topic to the group's charter, ...
'If you are claiming that the article is "off-topic" and in
violation to the group charter, please include the
charter's
posting outlines or an URL to the location of the group's
charter.' (From the Frequently Asked Questions for Deja
News. Our charter's URL is
http://www.ultranet.com/~seiler/cbcfaq.htm#charter.)
2. Why does alt.support.childfree exist?
+ There are lots of things in this world that bug people
(isn't there even a site on the net for discussion of
nothing but peeves??), and I think this newsgroup just
gives
CBC'rs a place to rant about things that bug them regarding
kids, parents, and people who nose into their lifestyle. I
believe (at least I hope) that it is nothing more sinister
than that. (Liz Guzzi)
+ Because we need a place to vent. If somebody's child rams a
mini shopping cart into the back of my legs, or a child at
the next table in a restaurant wanders around and screams,
or someone changes a diaper on the bench in the ice cream
parlor, I'm not the type of person to create a scene. I'm
seething inside, but I generally keep my mouth shut. That's
not healthy. If I mention at work or among other people
that
these things annoyed me today, I'm just as likely to hear,
"Well, what do you expect? They're just children." I don't
want to hear that. I want to hear, "Hey, what a jerk that
parent was, let me tell you about the one that tore all the
posters we'd just put up today". I can come here to a.s.cf,
moan about it, and people will commiserate. (Rabbit)
+ To provide a place that being childfree is a *given*.
(Jennie D'O-C)
3. So, you all hate children?
+ I do. The next poster doesn't. But then, I hate metalhead
music, Brussels sprouts, small foreign cars, McDonald's,
and
that song from 'Titanic", and no one gives me a hard time
about it ... (Rabbit)
+ What it all boils down to for me is that I don't tend to
like interacting with people who think that the world
revolves around them. Since the vast majority of young
children don't yet have the cognitive skills to realize
that
this isn't the case, I'd rather not have anything to do
with
them. (Jennie D-O'C)
+ No, some children are a delight to visit with (although it
doesn't make me want any of my own). The real problem is
parents who refuse to discipline their children
appropriately and train them so that the rest of us won't
mind having them around. Those are the parents who have
kids
and then expect the rest of us to support those kids and
teach them how to be human beings. (Kettir)
+ Chilllllll-druuuuuuun are quite nice actually. With
bernaise
sauce and a good Merlot. 8) (Marisa Wood)
4. Don't people hate you for your unpopular stance?
+ Some do. That's why there's a need for support. (Rabbit)
+ I've had more trouble with being misunderstood than with
being hated. Not that that's exactly fun, either. (Jennie
D-O'C)
+ Some do, mainly out of jealousy that they weren't smart or
thinking enough to make this same choice for themselves.
(Glenna99)
+ Oh come now, it's not like we're proposing to ship our
surplus children to the Congo for famine relief or
anything.
Despite the answers you see above, some of us actually get
along nicely with lots of parents, some of whom have
actually posted to this newsgroup. (Scott Eiler)
+ I've been very fortunate. My relatives have never given me
any grief about not having children, and none of my friends
or co-workers seem to care whether I have kids or not. I
had
no idea how much grief others get about not wanting kids
until I started reading a.s.c. (Kettir)
* Posting Guidelines:
1. Can I post here if I like kids but don't want my own?
+ Of course, as far as I'm concerned. But don't be upset if
things get a bit ... um, nasty. (Rabbit)
+ Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem. The more the merrier.
(Jennie D-O'C)
2. If I'm a parent, can I post here?
+ Opinions differ. Many people here welcome parents, as long
as they don't start arguments about childbearing or talk
about their kids. Others would prefer that parents don't
exist. But it's Usenet, and it's unmoderated, so there's
nothing to keep you from posting here, as long as you
observe the charter. (Scott Eiler)
+ I'd like it if parents could participate, but never mention
their kids. (Jennie D-O'C)
+ I have to deal with parents every day of my life. ASC is
the
*one* place where I can come and not have to interact with
parents or their sprogs, or, worry that something negative
that I say might some parent's delicate sensibilities.
(Chris Henderson)
+ If parents *choose* to post here, then I reserve my right
to
toast them for fun and profit. This is the place where I
CAN
vent against parents and their practices if I feel like it.
(T. Van Voris)
3. What kind of posts should I avoid writing?
+ If you read this group and feel you have to oppose the
absence of children: bear in mind, we've heard it all
before. If you don't believe it, check out Breeder Troll
Bingo, conveniently available on the Web at
http://www.cybercomm.net/~flamingo/breedertroll_bingo.htm.
If you say anything that's on the Breeder Troll Bingo card,
you will be ridiculed, at the very least.
+ Avoid "yabbuting". "Yabbuting" is saying things like "yeah,
but it's perfectly normal for children to do that" or
"yeah,
but that's not the parents' fault" in response to someone's
rant. This is generally frowned on in
alt.support.childfree.
When the denizens of alt.support.childfree are ranting, we
don't *want* to have an argument about what we're ranting
about. We just want to blow off steam, or commiserate with
others who might feel the same way. And since it's looked
down on in our culture to complain about children or
parents
anywhere else, alt.support.childfree is the only place
where
it's accepted. Therefore, "yabbuting" is considered a
particularly heinous invasion of space. (Jennie D-O'C)
+ People who have wandered over to ASC from misc.kids or
other
parenting newsgroups are used to one type of newsgroup
experience--one where there is a desire to share
information
and correct misconceptions on issues about being a parent
or
raising children. ASC is a completely different ball game.
ASC denizens are not interested in performing cultural
anthropology upon parents, in understanding why parents or
children do the things that they do. They will therefore
not
respond with gratitude to being "enlightened."
Most parents would never think of posting along the lines
of
"geez, why don't you guys adopt?" on alt.infertility.
Posting "yabbut" on ASC is the same thing. (Jo Pitesky)
4. Why are there arguments and negative postings here?
+ It's real people posting, and real people often disagree.
Sometimes it's difference of opinion, sometimes it's
misunderstandings. Cyberspace doesn't allow for body
language and inflection. (Rabbit)
+ There will always be kiddies whose parents don't monitor
their Internet activities, as well as jerks who don't have
lives of their own and can't get attention from anyone
except by trolling groups like a.s.c. Parents who resent
our
childfree lives also like to try to "convert" us because
they can't understand that we just don't want children, and
when they realize we really don't want kids, I think this
causes them to question their own lifestyle and so they
take
out their conflicting emotions by calling us "child
haters".
(Kettir)
+ For some reason, some people who would never think of
starting an argument in support groups like
alt.support.shyness or alt.support.grief don't hesitate to
troll to our particular support group. (Scott Eiler)
+ Yes, (insert name of troll here), we can't make you leave,
but make no mistake about it that you *do* cause damage by
your presence here. You are putting your selfish need for
entertainment and the last word before our need for a
support group. (Elise Rauschenbach)
+ Just as freedom of religion is now generally seen to
include
freedom FROM religion, the childfree state properly
includes
the right to be free of lectures on parenting issues.
(Stella)
5. Why all the off-topic postings?
+ Sorry... it's kinda like a big childfree cocktail party.
(Bill)
+ 'Cause they're FUN! I feel like the a.s.cf posters are my
friends. In real one-on-one life, I talk about everything
with my friends, and I like to do that here. I figure that
if someone doesn't like the off-topic postings, they can
scroll by them. (Rabbit)
+ Well, this is alt.SUPPORT.childfree, and sometimes you have
to support people by talking about things they want to talk
about. (Scott Eiler)
6. Why does this group complain about children all the time?
+ Because the idea behind a support group is venting. Why
does
AA always talk about drinking? To someone just stepping in,
it would indeed seem that all we do is complain. But here's
another way to look at it. I work with my computer a lot,
and 90% of the time it works properly and does what I need
it to do. I feel no need to say, and most people don't want
to hear, "Well, I did my work today, computer worked fine."
But if it "misbehaves", eats my work, etc., then my natural
response is to want to throw it out the window. I won't do
that, of course, but it makes me feel better to be able to
turn to someone and say, "Goddamn computer! I'd like to
send
it to Mars!" So in real life, 60% of the children I see are
well behaved. But all it takes is one screaming one to make
life miserable for everyone in the restaurant, and that's
when I want to complain about it. (Rabbit)
* Snappy Comebacks:
1. But you were children once!
+ Not everyone's perfect. (Dan Harding)
+ Yes, but we got better. (Charles Olsen)
+ Well, I didn't ask to be. (Scott Eiler)
+ I broke my leg once, don't want to go through it again.
(Rabbit)
2. But children are our future!
+ So is death, but I tend not to dwell on it. (Dan Harding)
+ Maybe, but unless a lot of people stop turning out 3 of
them, there won't be much of a future. (Rabbit)
+ Children are their *own* futures, I suppose, but that's
kind
of a no-brainer. Honestly, this is one of those platitudes
that I just have to shake my head at because it doesn't
make
the slightest bit of sense. (Jennie D-O'C)
+ Only if you believe that as soon as those children turn 21
every older generation will retire. I expect to work until
the day I die. I am my own future. We are making our future
RIGHT NOW. We can't cop out by saying that somebody else is
the future. When I'm dead, it certainly won't mean anything
to me if the human race goes on or not. Making a baby, or
even a clone, does not make you immortal. You yourself will
still be dead someday. (Kettir)
3. What if your parents had felt that way?
+ How do you know they didn't? (Ilene Bilenky)
+ Then I would have been the child of *other* parents! (Robin
Kornides)
+ Well, maybe you would have had an easier time finding a
parking space today. (Daniel Reynolds)
+ You'd be standing here talking to yourself, and then
*everyone* would know you are a fool, not just me. (Amy
Gale)
+ Yup, and the planet would be in somewhat better shape, too.
People have no responsibility, zero, to sprog they don't
produce. (Elise Rauschenbach)
+ Mine did. Unfortunately, they lived in such a narrow,
closed-minded pronatalist, society that they felt pressured
into having kids. As a result, they resented their own
children. If my parents had never had me, I wouldn't be
here
to have any regrets about it. (Dulcinea West)
+ Then maybe my mom would have gotten her Ph.D and never
crawled into the ol' booze bottle. If I'd had the option, I
woulda given up my life for that. (Dorothea Salo)
+ Well, I wouldn't have to worry about it then, would I?
(Rabbit)
4. Don't you worry about who will take care of you when you are
older unless you have children?
+ I have a "chosen family" of friends, and we all take care
of
each other. (Marisa Wood)
+ I'm sure any hypothetical spawn of mine are really looking
forward to getting named as trustees of my retirement fund
and putting me in the nursing home. Thanks anyway, but I'll
bet I can handle that myself. (Scott Eiler)
+ Children aren't slaves. You can't force them to take care
of
you when you grow old. You are just as likely to end up in
a
nursing home paid for by the state because your kids can't
afford to pay for your care due to the expenses of their
own
children. (Kettir)
+ Sometimes. I hope that my pension and some retirement
savings will be enough, and I plan to work as long as I
can.
But I'd have these same problems if I were a parent, too,
since I wouldn't expect my kids to have to spend their
money
in my care. (Jennie D-O'C)
+ If you would be so kind, please show me the iron-clad
guarantee you have that shows that beyond a shadow of a
doubt, your children will support you and comfort you in
your old age. You make children, I'll make friends. On your
way home tonight, why don't you just drop by the nursing
home and see how many people wait day after day after day
after day for their children to visit them? (Rabbit)
5. Why do you think you have anything of value to say about
children, parents, or childrearing?
+ If one believes that, then one also believes that men
should
never be gynecologists, or (other examples), or indeed that
any *parent* could possibly have an opinion on any other
parenting or child other than their very own. (Brenda
Peters)
+ Each and every childfree person *was* a child. To say that
the childfree have no exposure or experience to children,
parenting, or the world of childrearing is naive at best.
(Brenda Peters)
+ Sometimes an outside, unschooled perspective is MORE
valuable than that of the practitioner. Often those who
work
on something day after day lose perspective; they get so
caught up in the parts *they* see, they lose sight of the
parts they *don't* see but others do. (Jim Paradis)
6. But you'd be such a *good* parent!
+ I usually snicker and say, "Believe me, you're not the
first
person who's ever called me a 'mother'." (Rabbit)
+ But smothering is illegal you know?!? It's so much easier
to
avoid the issue entirely *my* way. (Tara)
+ So? I give good blowjobs too, doesn't mean i want to be a
hooker! (Ilona)
7. Children are just like very small adults, and you can help them!
+ Okay. My advice is they get a job. (Jason G.)
+ If they're small adults, can I date them? (Scott Eiler)
+ I don't put up with bad behavior from adults, either.
(Angelmoon)
+ Charity begins at home. They DO have their own parents,
don't they? (T. Van Voris)
+ If children are little adults, why aren't they out working
alongside the rest of us? Why are there tax breaks for
them?
Hell, if they are little adults, they should be paying
taxes. Also, if they are little adults, this nonsense about
taking violence off T.V. for the sake of the
chilllddddrrruuuuunnnnn would be moot. After all, they are
little adults right? (HCF)
8. It takes a village to raise a child...
+ It takes a child to raze a village. (Ilene B.)
+ I'm not a member of that village that's supposed to raise
your kid for you. (Scott Amspoker)
+ I moved out of the village with no forwarding address.
(Melody)
+ In order to save the village, we had to destroy it. (Jim)
+ You may live in the village but I live in the jungle.
(Veronique)
+ Your village called. Their idiot is missing. (A t-shirt)
+ The day that parents took away my rights as a village
member
to chastise, and educate their children; they also lost
their right to assume I would mind and attend to their
children. (Tara D)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Links:
* The Childfree Photo Gallery
http://members.tripod.com/~kettir/cbc/cbc.htm, with further links to
the home pages for everyone in the newsgroup who's volunteered them.
To put your picture in the gallery, e-mail it to "kettir at geocities
dot com" (address intentionally munged because Kettir don't like
spam).
* The alt.support.childfree Killfile FAQ
http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~dmrovner/killfaq.html. This has very useful
instructions on how to avoid trolls.
* Visit Sprogopolis, my ideas on how a city should REALLY be run.
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/1285/sprogop.html. (Larry Kahn)
* Check out the ASCF "Lexicon of Spawn" at:
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/7404/. (Gutterboy)
* The alt.support.childfree archive now resides at:
http://members.xoom.com/flamingo23/. It has several memorable posts
to
the newsgroup. (Jim)
* Play Breeder Troll Bingo, at
http://www.cybercomm.net/~flamingo/breedertroll_bingo.htm.
* And finally, the alt.support.childfree Guide to Fancy Restaurants, at
http://www.ultranet.com/~seiler/fancy.htm. Thanks to Angi Long who
inspired it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Copyright � 2000, by the authors mentioned above.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-------- Scott Eiler B{D> --------
http://www.ultranet.com/~seiler
A baby born today owes at least $4,347.83 to the Federal Government
alone before his eyes open. (No wonder he yells.)
-- Robert A. Heinlein (writing in 1980).
