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From: Mark Duggan <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: SCO 4.2 and rimapd
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My organization uses two versions of the SCO OS i.e. Openserver 5.x and
SCO 4.2.

Our mailserver, running 5.x acts as a imap server to both 5.x and 4.2
machines. I've
compiled binaries for both OS versions.

So here's the problem - Clients on any 5.x machines can successfully
pre-authenticate,
using the rimapd method, while clients on any 4.2 machine cannot.
On the 4.2 machines I've tested the user equivalency using the command:

rcmd imapserver exec /etc/rimapd    (NOTE: On SCO rcmd is the equivalent
to rsh)

This gives the a clean "PREAUTH .... server ready" prompt as expected.

Another curiosity is that if I take the 4.2 pine binary and run it on a
5.x machine, pre-authentication works fine. (4.2 binaries will run on
5.x but not vice-versa.)

So the problem is not either with the imap server or the binary itself
but something to do with the environment on the 4.2 machine.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Mark Duggan

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From [email protected] Tue Dec  1 14:28:31 1998 -0800
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From: Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Unnecessary output from "update_titlebar_message"
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The routine "update_titlebar_message" (lines 1289-1343 of screen.c in
pine4.05/pine) performs a "StartInverse/EndInverse" pair even if there
is no output between them.  This unnecessary output prevents my
demand-dialed link from going idle.  The following patch corrects the
problem:

--- pine4.05/pine/screen.c.orig Wed Sep 23 11:56:43 1998
+++ pine4.05/pine/screen.c      Mon Nov 30 20:51:28 1998
@@ -1304,6 +1304,9 @@
    if(as.cur_mess_col < 0)
      return;

+    if(mn_get_cur(as.msgmap) == as.current_msg)
+      return;
+
    delta = digit_count(mn_get_cur(as.msgmap)) - digit_count(as.current_msg);

    StartInverse();
@@ -1330,7 +1333,7 @@
           as.del_column += delta;
        }
    }
-    else if(mn_get_cur(as.msgmap) != as.current_msg){
+    else {
       as.current_msg = mn_get_cur(as.msgmap);
       PutLine0(0, as.cur_mess_col, comatose(as.current_msg));
    }

--
Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>


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From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
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Subject: quota
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hi. i am writing from unc-asheville pine system. when i log on, it says i
have exceeded my quota and need to delete some files. however, i have
deleted everything i know of: my incoming files, my sent mail, and all of
my other folders. what am i not doing? thanks!
stephanie

"SMALL1DER" :)



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From [email protected] Wed Dec  2 10:37:19 1998 -0800
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From: Ken Woods <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: quota
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man du

exit pine, and type du -k | more

Look for something that has a big number on the left side, and if you
don't need it, delete it.


If du -k |more doesn't reveal anything, then try this:

cd
ls -la

Look in the center of the screen, for something with big numbers.
Don't need it, delete it.

If all fails, call the help desk at UNC.


(sigh, this makes up for my posts to cmp, doesn't it???)

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> hi. i am writing from unc-asheville pine system. when i log on, it says
> i have exceeded my quota and need to delete some files. however, i have
> deleted everything i know of: my incoming files, my sent mail, and all
> of my other folders. what am i not doing? thanks!  stephanie

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]


From [email protected] Wed Dec  2 10:40:42 1998 -0800
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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: quota
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>From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:55:18 -0500 (EST)

>hi. i am writing from unc-asheville pine system. when i log on, it says i
>have exceeded my quota and need to delete some files. however, i have
>deleted everything i know of: my incoming files, my sent mail, and all of
>my other folders. what am i not doing?

You are not asking in the right place. We cannot help you on this mailing list;
you must ask your system administrator.

You must also use capital letters at the beginning of sentences. Jeeze.

Assuming you are on a Unix system, the command "ls -a" will list all the files
in the particular directory, including hidden files that begin with ".".

Perhaps you had a session that crashed, resulting in a core dump. You may have
a file called "core" taking up all that space. Delete it.

"ls -al" will list all files, together with their length.

For more information, ask for help from your own system. No one on this mailing
list can help you; all we can do is guess.


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From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: quota
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i typed in du -k|more and then it went to a prompt of stdin:end
what do i type in to go delete the things i found? i cant get to them to
delete them! ha! thanks for all of your help. stephanie

"SMALL1DER" :)


On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:

> man du
>
> exit pine, and type du -k | more
>
> Look for something that has a big number on the left side, and if you
> don't need it, delete it.
>
>
> If du -k |more doesn't reveal anything, then try this:
>
> cd
> ls -la
>
> Look in the center of the screen, for something with big numbers.
> Don't need it, delete it.
>
> If all fails, call the help desk at UNC.
>
>
> (sigh, this makes up for my posts to cmp, doesn't it???)
>
> On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:
>
> > hi. i am writing from unc-asheville pine system. when i log on, it says
> > i have exceeded my quota and need to delete some files. however, i have
> > deleted everything i know of: my incoming files, my sent mail, and all
> > of my other folders. what am i not doing? thanks!  stephanie
>
> --
> Ken Woods
> [email protected]
>
>


From [email protected] Wed Dec  2 10:44:04 1998 -0800
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On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> hi. i am writing from unc-asheville pine system. when i log on, it says i
> have exceeded my quota and need to delete some files. however, i have
> deleted everything i know of: my incoming files, my sent mail, and all of
> my other folders. what am i not doing? thanks!
> stephanie
This is a good question for your local system administrators since it has
to do with the _system_ quota, not any pine quota.  If you have shell
access, try the following (% stands for command prompt)
% cd ~
% du *

The listing that shows up should show the sizes of all files and
subdirectories.  Look for big numbers and delete things you don't need.
You probably also have files in an incoming mail directory.
--
Michael Cope: Harvey Mudd College '00; Armand Hammer UWC '96
E-mail: [email protected]





From [email protected] Wed Dec  2 11:17:08 1998 -0800
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On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> i typed in du -k|more and then it went to a prompt of stdin:end
> what do i type in to go delete the things i found? i cant get to them to
> delete them! ha! thanks for all of your help. stephanie
>
> "SMALL1DER" :)
>
You have to quit more by pressing Ctrl-C or q
Then you can delete the files with (% is shell prompt)
% rm filename
#deletes file
% rm -r directoryname
#deletes entire directory and all subdirectory
BE CAREFUL.  There is no undelete in Unix
If you want to be safer, try
% mv filename /tmp
or
% mv directoryname /tmp
then
% cd /tmp
% rm filename
or
% rm -r directoryname

If you made a mistake in moving the file you can move it back with
% cd /tmp
% mv filename ~
--
Michael Cope: Harvey Mudd College '00; Armand Hammer UWC '96
E-mail: [email protected]





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On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 Ken Woods <[email protected]> wrote:

> If all fails, call the help desk at UNC.
> (sigh, this makes up for my posts to cmp, doesn't it???)

Actually, I've learned to enjoy your style.  I was hoping you'd tear her
ass off!  You were so nice that she wrote back!

Mike

--
Michael B. Miller
University of Missouri--Columbia
http://taxa.psyc.missouri.edu/~mbmiller/



From [email protected] Thu Dec  3 07:05:27 1998 -0800
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Dunno what was wrong with me yesterday.
Rest assured, it won't happen again.

Thanks go out to Robin/Adam for getting me back on track.




On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 Ken Woods <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > If all fails, call the help desk at UNC.
> > (sigh, this makes up for my posts to cmp, doesn't it???)
>
> Actually, I've learned to enjoy your style.  I was hoping you'd tear her
> ass off!  You were so nice that she wrote back!
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Michael B. Miller
> University of Missouri--Columbia
> http://taxa.psyc.missouri.edu/~mbmiller/
>
>

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]


From [email protected] Thu Dec  3 10:31:41 1998 -0800
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From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
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problem solved! thanx for all your help yesterday....
too bad some of you think i am nice enough to say mean things about. what
is that all about? all i did was ask for help! so, i guess thanx for
nothin!
stephanie

"SMALL1DER" :)


On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:

>
> Dunno what was wrong with me yesterday.
> Rest assured, it won't happen again.
>
> Thanks go out to Robin/Adam for getting me back on track.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 Ken Woods <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > If all fails, call the help desk at UNC.
> > > (sigh, this makes up for my posts to cmp, doesn't it???)
> >
> > Actually, I've learned to enjoy your style.  I was hoping you'd tear her
> > ass off!  You were so nice that she wrote back!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > --
> > Michael B. Miller
> > University of Missouri--Columbia
> > http://taxa.psyc.missouri.edu/~mbmiller/
> >
> >
>
> --
> Ken Woods
> [email protected]
>
>


From [email protected] Thu Dec  3 10:37:45 1998 -0800
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On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> problem solved! thanx for all your help yesterday....
> too bad some of you think i am nice enough to say mean things about. what
> is that all about? all i did was ask for help! so, i guess thanx for
> nothin!
> stephanie

Yes, this list contains certain misfits who feel entitled, even obligated, to
attack anyone who dares wander into their dragon's lair without having first
achieved the necessary levels of wizardliness. Blow them off!

Regards,
...Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.

personal e-mail: [email protected]
company e-mail: [email protected] or [email protected] or [email protected]
ftp://ftp.anzio.com               voice: 503-624-0360
http://www.anzio.com                 fax: 503-624-0760


From [email protected] Fri Dec  4 11:05:21 1998 -0800
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From: Nayan Jain <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: PC PINE Problem !
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Hi all

I have tried installing PC-PINE but i am getting some error messages while
setting up. If anyone of you can help me with this then i will be very
thankful to him/er. Please dont crib about it here.

Thanks,

Earlier i used to logon to my mailserver and then i used to check my
emails. Now i want to set up my mails on PC.

Here are the configuration setting for PINE 3.96 on UNIX

personal-name            = Nayan Jain
user-domain              = <No Value Set: using "tatainfotech.com">
smtp-server              = <No Value Set: using "127.0.0.1">
inbox-path               = <No Value Set: using "inbox">
folder-collections       = <No Value Set: using "mail/[]">
default-fcc              = <No Value Set: using "sent-mail">
default-saved-msg-folder = <No Value Set: using "saved-messages">
postponed-folder         = <No Value Set: using "postponed-msgs">
signature-file           = <No Value Set: using ".signature">
global-address-book      = <No Value Set: using
"/usr/local/addr/.addressbook">
address-book             = <No Value Set: using ".addressbook">

and the server where we used to telnet and open our account was
aaa.bbb.cc.dd (this is an IP address actually)

Now when i try to install PC - PINE then it asked me for following
parameters and i put these details. these setting are for PC-PINE 4.05

personal-name            = Nayan Jain
user-id                  = nayan.jain
user-domain              = tatainfotech.com
smtp-server              = 127.0.0.1
inbox-path               = <No Value Set: using "inbox">
default-fcc              = <No Value Set: using "sentmail">
default-saved-msg-folder = <No Value Set: using "savemail">
postponed-folder         = <No Value Set: using "postpond">
signature-file           = <No Value Set: using "pine.sig">

I am getting error when i try to open my inbox / send mail
it says that cannot find host 127.0.0.1

Even if i put aaa.bbb.cc.dd it says the same thing.
what should i put here and how ?

I will be very thankful to you if you can help me

Thanks
Nayan ...!


"Those of you who think you know everything are very
annoying to those of us who do."


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From: Ken Woods <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PC PINE Problem !
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On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Nayan Jain wrote:
> Earlier i used to logon to my mailserver and then i used to check my
> emails. Now i want to set up my mails on PC.
>
> Here are the configuration setting for PINE 3.96 on UNIX
> personal-name            = Nayan Jain
> user-domain              = <No Value Set: using "tatainfotech.com">
> smtp-server              = <No Value Set: using "127.0.0.1">


Oh, and becuase it's thesame program it MUst be set up the same, right?
*sigh*
luser.


> Now when i try to install PC - PINE then it asked me for following
> parameters and i put these details. these setting are for PC-PINE 4.05
> personal-name            = Nayan Jain
> user-id                  = nayan.jain
> user-domain              = tatainfotech.com
> smtp-server              = 127.0.0.1

Replace the 127.0.0.1 with bgate.tatainfotech.com
BTW, you've used your one stupid question.
Don't ask any more.

> I am getting error when i try to open my inbox / send mail
> it says that cannot find host 127.0.0.1

Duh.
Imagine that.

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]


From [email protected] Fri Dec  4 13:59:26 1998 -0800
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Subject: Re: PC PINE Problem !
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On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:

> Oh, and becuase it's thesame program it MUst be set up the same, right?
> *sigh*
> luser.
Calling names, I guess this is just to show your  hrm.. maturity?

Last I checked, this list was for people with pine problems,
not those with such low self-esteem they have to result in insults.

> Replace the 127.0.0.1 with bgate.tatainfotech.com
OMG. You can actually be useful.

> BTW, you've used your one stupid question.
> Don't ask any more.
If it is pine related, and I can help him, he can ask any he wants too.
I still haven't found your name under the admin list of this list.

> > I am getting error when i try to open my inbox / send mail
> > it says that cannot find host 127.0.0.1
> Duh.
> Imagine that.
I guess because you have heard of loopback, everyone with a Unix account
should have as well.

> Ken Woods
Maybe you should have stayed there.


Yash City


In a World without Walls and Fences ...
Who needs Windows and Gates ?!





From [email protected] Fri Dec  4 14:34:03 1998 -0800
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Reply-To: Nayan Jain <[email protected]>
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Subject: PC PINE Problem !
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Hi all

Thanks for all ur help...but i was not able to correct the error and make
PC-PINE run. Here i a, again giving you details.

Whenever you execute pine for first time it asks for all details regarding
config. here is what i gave.

Before that i would like to tell you settings regarding  pine 3.96 on
unix.

Earlier i used to login to our compnay mail server
aaa.bbb.cc.dd as user "nayan.jain" and then on unix command prompt gave
pine command and was in my mails.

these were the settings...

personal-name            = Nayan Jain
user-domain              = <No Value Set: using "tatainfotech.com">
smtp-server              = <No Value Set: using "127.0.0.1">
inbox-path               = <No Value Set: using "inbox">
folder-collections       = <No Value Set: using "mail/[]">
default-fcc              = <No Value Set: using "sent-mail">
default-saved-msg-folder = <No Value Set: using "saved-messages">
postponed-folder         = <No Value Set: using "postponed-msgs">
signature-file           = <No Value Set: using ".signature">
global-address-book      = <No Value Set: using
"/usr/local/addr/.addressbook">
address-book             = <No Value Set: using ".addressbook">

server address aaa.bbb.cc.dd (this is an IP address actually)

Now settings i gave at time of installing PINE 4.05

User-id for From address :nayan.jain
Personal name for From address : Nayan Jain
Host/domain for From address : bgate.tatainfotech.com
SMTP server to forward message :aaa.bbb.cc.dd
then it tried to send mail to pine centre for updation.
but it was not able to send mail. Also when i tried to get into inbox,m it
gives this error :- No inbox!  Folder to open as inbox :

here then i gave my UNIX based PINE's inbox path
{aaa.bbb.cc.dd}/usr/mail/nayan.jain

It tried to open the inbox, but then gave this error:-
 [Host not found (#11001): aaa.bbb.cc.dd]

well, please tell me what am i missing here...?

current pinerc settings ...

personal-name            = Nayan Jain
user-id                  = nayan.jain
user-domain              = bgate.tatainfotech.com
smtp-server              = aaa.bbb.cc.dd
nntp-server              = <No Value Set>
inbox-path               = {aaa.bbb.cc.dd}/usr/mail/nayan.jain


Before you misunderstand me....aaa.bbb.cc.dd is actually an IP address


I will be very thankful to you if you can help me

Thanks
Nayan ...!


"Those of you who think you know everything are very
annoying to those of us who do."




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On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:
> > Oh, and becuase it's thesame program it MUst be set up the same, right?
> > *sigh*
> > luser.
>  Calling names, I guess this is just to show your  hrm.. maturity?

Admit it, that's a luser way of thinking.
You do know what a luser is, don't you???

> Last I checked, this list was for people with pine problems,
> not those with such low self-esteem they have to result in insults.

Looks to me like you didn't check.

> > Replace the 127.0.0.1 with bgate.tatainfotech.com
> OMG. You can actually be useful.

LOL, only if the people listen.
Did you see that the guy did NOT do what I said??
And people wonder why I'm a BOFH.

> > BTW, you've used your one stupid question.
> > Don't ask any more.
> If it is pine related, and I can help him, he can ask any he wants too.
> I still haven't found your name under the admin list of this list.

No, it's not.
Again, it's painfully obvious that you have not read what this list is
about either. The list is not for stupid problems like this guy is having.
This list is for TECHNICAL discussions.

> > > I am getting error when i try to open my inbox / send mail
> > > it says that cannot find host 127.0.0.1
> > Duh.
> > Imagine that.
> I guess because you have heard of loopback, everyone with a Unix account
> should have as well.

Sure.

> > Ken Woods
>  Maybe you should have stayed there.

You were talking about being mature???

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]



From [email protected] Sat Dec  5 07:01:02 1998 -0800
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Message-Id: <Pine.WNT.4.04.9812051623120.-797903@a>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:56:14 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)
Reply-To: Elad Eyal <[email protected]>
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From: Elad Eyal <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Farewell
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Good morning,

       It comes a time when a man realizes the errs of his ways. For me
this moment has just arrived.

       I've been reading the pine-info (and trying to do my modest
contribution) for a while now, and more than learning about pine I've
learnt about pine-indo writers: fubar.

       For an excessively long time, I've been getting junk mail from the
list in amounts and quality resembling Microsoft help files. Never-ending
mail wars about - BEHOLD - signature length. Gosh. Flaming every poor
bastard who had the nerve to send the wrong message to the wrong
personnel.

       People. do get a life. And if that's too much for you, then at
least take some abridged course in common courtesy. Please.

       I know what you're gonna say, in that polite, neat way of yours.
You don't have to read it if you don't want to. Well, I'm not gonna to.
I'm unsubscribing from the Pine Disgustionn Forum, finally. It's too bad a
very rotten apples makes the dish bad.

       Enjoy yourselfs, lads. On my part, if ever I need someone abused,
I'll ask him to mail [email protected].

_
(_  /  _    /           ( E-mail pigeons nest in binary trees )
(__/__(/\_(/         http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~elad



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From [email protected] Sat Dec  5 11:53:01 1998 -0800
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From: Timothy J Luoma <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Farewell
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.04.9812051623120.-797903@a>
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       Author: Elad Eyal <[email protected]>
       Date:   Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:56:14 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)
       ID:     <Pine.WNT.4.04.9812051623120.-797903@a>

> I've been reading the pine-info (and trying to do my modest
> contribution) for a while now, and more than learning about pine I've
> learnt about pine-indo writers: fubar.

Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?

Does that have anything to do with the purpose of this list?  I don't see a
single post from you in the previous two months.... that's pretty modest.

May I draw your attention to the stated purpose of this list?

       The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs
       & workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more
       pertaining to the Pine software.  While unmoderated, it is
       intended primarily for discussion of matters of interest
       to systems/email administrators, developers, trainers, user
       support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging
       on a "technical" level.

_Technical_ doesn't mean quotas, or random tag lines or any of the other
stuff that has been popular around here lately.

If there were some actual technical questions going around, there might be
some more use to this list.

TjL


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From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
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OKAY! ALL OF YOU COMPUTER GENIOUS ASSHOLES NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT SOME OF
US DONT KNOW WHERE TO ASK QUESTIONS EXCEPT WHERE WE ARE TOLD TO ASK
QUESTIONS. YOU ANSWERED MY QUESTION SO, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! GET OFF OF
YOUR BIG ASS POWER TRIP AND REALIZE THAT SOME OF US DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO
EXCEPT ASK FOR HELP. THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT BLESSED W/ COMPUTER KNOWLEDGE
ONLY KNOW TO ASK FOR HELP SO....SORRY IF WE DIDNT ASK FOR YOUR BLESSED
OPINION! TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR PERSONALITY AND REALIZE THAT AT LEAST US
LITTLE ONES KNOW HOW TO TYPE AND US LITTLE ONES MUST LOOK FOR HELP WHERE
HELP IS LISTED. GO KISS YOUR OWN ASS AT 6:30 AT NIGHT AND HAVE A DATE WITH
YOUR COMPUTER CAUSE THATS ALL YOU GOT!!!!!!!
YEAH, SO  GLAD YOU KNOW YOUR COMPUTER!
"SMALL1DER" :)


On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:
> > On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:
> > > Oh, and becuase it's thesame program it MUst be set up the same, right?
> > > *sigh*
> > > luser.
> >  Calling names, I guess this is just to show your  hrm.. maturity?
>
> Admit it, that's a luser way of thinking.
> You do know what a luser is, don't you???
>
> > Last I checked, this list was for people with pine problems,
> > not those with such low self-esteem they have to result in insults.
>
> Looks to me like you didn't check.
>
> > > Replace the 127.0.0.1 with bgate.tatainfotech.com
> > OMG. You can actually be useful.
>
> LOL, only if the people listen.
> Did you see that the guy did NOT do what I said??
> And people wonder why I'm a BOFH.
>
> > > BTW, you've used your one stupid question.
> > > Don't ask any more.
> > If it is pine related, and I can help him, he can ask any he wants too.
> > I still haven't found your name under the admin list of this list.
>
> No, it's not.
> Again, it's painfully obvious that you have not read what this list is
> about either. The list is not for stupid problems like this guy is having.
> This list is for TECHNICAL discussions.
>
> > > > I am getting error when i try to open my inbox / send mail
> > > > it says that cannot find host 127.0.0.1
> > > Duh.
> > > Imagine that.
> > I guess because you have heard of loopback, everyone with a Unix account
> > should have as well.
>
> Sure.
>
> > > Ken Woods
> >  Maybe you should have stayed there.
>
> You were talking about being mature???
>
> --
> Ken Woods
> [email protected]
>
>
>



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SORRY SOME  OF US ARE NOT "SMART"  AS YOU ARE SMART ASS! GET A GRIP AND
REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT THE SHIT! WE ARE ONLY ASKING FOR HELP. JUST TELL
US YOU CANT HELP! DONT BELITTLE US! ASSHOLES! AND YES, I AM CALLING NAMES
B/C YOU INSECURE BASTARDS DONT KNOW HOW TO STEP UP AND RECOGNIZE THAT SOME
PEOPLE FOLLOW DIRECTIONS THEY ARE GIVEN! I AM GLAD THAT YOU ARE SOOOOOO
SMART ON THE COMPUTER: GLAD THATS ALL YOU'LL BE FUCKIN TONIGHT!
STEPHANIE

"SMALL1DER" :)


On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

>       Author: Elad Eyal <[email protected]>
>       Date:   Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:56:14 +0200 (Jerusalem Standard Time)
>       ID:     <Pine.WNT.4.04.9812051623120.-797903@a>
>
> > I've been reading the pine-info (and trying to do my modest
> > contribution) for a while now, and more than learning about pine I've
> > learnt about pine-indo writers: fubar.
>
> Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?
>
> Does that have anything to do with the purpose of this list?  I don't see a
> single post from you in the previous two months.... that's pretty modest.
>
> May I draw your attention to the stated purpose of this list?
>
>       The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs
>       & workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more
>       pertaining to the Pine software.  While unmoderated, it is
>       intended primarily for discussion of matters of interest
>       to systems/email administrators, developers, trainers, user
>       support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging
>       on a "technical" level.
>
> _Technical_ doesn't mean quotas, or random tag lines or any of the other
> stuff that has been popular around here lately.
>
> If there were some actual technical questions going around, there might be
> some more use to this list.
>
> TjL
>
>


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On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:

> where *should* the new users go to have their 'non-technical' questions
> answered?

One of several places:

http://www.washington.edu/pine/index.html
http://www.kens.com/robin/pine.html
http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/pine/
http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/
comp.mail.pine


--
Ken Woods
[email protected]



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On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?

Maybe because they're so thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation
that they're making a (probably feeble, knowing several of you) attempt
to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.

>  Does that have anything to do with the purpose of this list?  I don't
> see a single post from you in the previous two months.... that's
> pretty modest.

Some of us don't post regularly...rather, we help people outside the
newsgroup as it's too much of a temptation for several in here to
make fun of everything that passes through here, which doesn't help
to answer the questions.  That doesn't mean we aren't out here
trying to accomplish things.

> May I draw your attention to the stated purpose of this list?
>       The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs
>       & workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more
>       pertaining to the Pine software.  While unmoderated, it is
>       intended primarily for discussion of matters of interest
>       to systems/email administrators, developers, trainers, user
>       support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging
>       on a "technical" level.

Weird.  I can't seem to find harass, ridicule, or belittle listed.
Did I miss something, or did you leave those out for a reason?

> _Technical_ doesn't mean quotas, or random tag lines or any of the other
> stuff that has been popular around here lately.

Good point...so why do most of the posts not answer the questions, but
insist on complaining about sigs that are too long or something else
equally trivial and unrelated to Pine?  Those things aren't 'technical
issues' related to Pine, either.

> If there were some actual technical questions going around, there
> might be some more use to this list.

Hmmm...by technical, I take it you mean very specific technical
questions that most newbies don't even know to ask?  That makes a
lot of sense.  So, if this newsgroup isn't considered to be tailored
to the new users of Pine, why is it listed in the FAQ and on the
Pine Web site?  Guess maybe you'd better take those links off, Mr.
Gray or whomever happens to read this and is in charge of updating
that site.  Then, if that *is* the case, where *should* the new users
go to have their 'non-technical' questions answered?

Greg


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On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:

> Maybe because they're so thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation
> that they're making a (probably feeble, knowing several of you) attempt
> to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.

Precisely. They're mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore (cookie to
whoever can name the movie :)

> lot of sense.  So, if this newsgroup isn't considered to be tailored
> to the new users of Pine, why is it listed in the FAQ and on the
> Pine Web site?  Guess maybe you'd better take those links off, Mr.
> Gray or whomever happens to read this and is in charge of updating
> that site.  Then, if that *is* the case, where *should* the new users
> go to have their 'non-technical' questions answered?

Is there a pine-help list?

maybe there should be a pine-help list for general usability issues, and
and this list for administrators.




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OK. Now that I have given my rating, now for the dissection of this
"flame"

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> OKAY! ALL OF YOU COMPUTER GENIOUS ASSHOLES NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT SOME OF
> US DONT KNOW WHERE TO ASK QUESTIONS EXCEPT WHERE WE ARE TOLD TO ASK
> QUESTIONS.

-1 for spelling
-1 for profanity

> YOU ANSWERED MY QUESTION SO, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM! GET OFF OF
> YOUR BIG ASS POWER TRIP AND REALIZE THAT SOME OF US DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO
> EXCEPT ASK FOR HELP.

-1 for profanity

> THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT BLESSED W/ COMPUTER KNOWLEDGE
> ONLY KNOW TO ASK FOR HELP SO....SORRY IF WE DIDNT ASK FOR YOUR BLESSED
> OPINION! TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR PERSONALITY AND REALIZE THAT AT LEAST US
> LITTLE ONES KNOW HOW TO TYPE AND US LITTLE ONES MUST LOOK FOR HELP WHERE
> HELP IS LISTED.

no spelling or profanity issues here.

> GO KISS YOUR OWN ASS AT 6:30 AT NIGHT AND HAVE A DATE WITH
> YOUR COMPUTER CAUSE THATS ALL YOU GOT!!!!!!!
> YEAH, SO  GLAD YOU KNOW YOUR COMPUTER!

-1 for profanity
-3 for the really lame personal attack. Somehow this always seems to come
up when someone wants to try and flame a techie. You obviously don't know
us very well, do you?

Global points off:

-3 for shouting. (I'm being generous here)
-3 for not being able to construct a basic sentence without murdering the
language.

-Ian



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Shall we pick apart this one as well? I hear a round of applause!

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> SORRY SOME  OF US ARE NOT "SMART"  AS YOU ARE SMART ASS! GET A GRIP AND
> REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT THE SHIT! WE ARE ONLY ASKING FOR HELP.

Well, since this really isn't the place to ask for newbie help, according
to the FAQ, you get what you ask for.

-1 for being stupid.
-1 for profanity.
-1 for abusing quotation marks.


> JUST TELL US YOU CANT HELP! DONT BELITTLE US! ASSHOLES! AND YES, I AM
> CALLING NAMES B/C YOU INSECURE BASTARDS DONT KNOW HOW TO STEP UP AND

No, you're calling names because you can't form a coherent sentence.

-1 for name-calling.
-1 for profanity.

> RECOGNIZE THAT SOME PEOPLE FOLLOW DIRECTIONS THEY ARE GIVEN! I AM GLAD

-1 for being a lemming.

> THAT YOU ARE SOOOOOO SMART ON THE COMPUTER: GLAD THATS ALL YOU'LL BE
> FUCKIN TONIGHT!

once again, -3 for the lame personal attack.

Global:

-2 for all caps
-2 for not having the sense to trim the previous message when replying.

-Ian


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On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Stephanie Michelle Skinner wrote:

> OKAY! ALL OF YOU COMPUTER GENIOUS ASSHOLES NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT SOME OF

Stephanie, your credentials for favouring the subscribers to this
list with your views are even slimmer than those of the person you
are responding to.  And those are exceedingly slim: he is just a
gate crasher in an unmoderated list.

How much did you pay for Pine?  The only payment that has been, by
implication, asked of you was to read the mail you were sent by the
list server when subscribing to this list.  That payment you have
withheld.

The correct response to questions outside the scope of the list is
no response: to ignore them.  The context-sensitive help is, after
all, extensive, and that in the main menu contains a pointer to a
FAQ and other files.

Some people are just plumb kind-hearted and liable to befriend
strays, but they should reply by direct personal e-mail.

Therefore, any responses that are in fact mailed to the list are
likely to come from the dregs.  A response that is abusive yet
answers the question fails all tests.  Deal with it.  Don't bring
yourself down to the level of the person who made the response.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email protected]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).






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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Farewell
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On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:

> > Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?
>
> Maybe because they're so thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation
> that they're making a (probably feeble, knowing several of you) attempt
> to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.

  I think Ken, as well as the others, should more importantly evaluate
their behavior, as to reflect the end-users opinions of Pine itself.
Joining the pine-info mailing list, and asking a question they can't seem
to find the answer to, and getting called names, and told to rm -rf *,
does not onlt reflect the posters "professional attitude" as they seem to
think members of this list must have. I think perhaps the hosters of this
list should take a serious look at the impact these few
need-to-insult-to-pump-my-low-selfesteem-drunks that ruin a good
mailing-list, and (the best?) Mail client's reputation.


> >  Does that have anything to do with the purpose of this list?  I don't
> > see a single post from you in the previous two months.... that's
> > pretty modest.
>
> Some of us don't post regularly...rather, we help people outside the
> newsgroup as it's too much of a temptation for several in here to
> make fun of everything that passes through here, which doesn't help
> to answer the questions.  That doesn't mean we aren't out here
> trying to accomplish things.
>
> > May I draw your attention to the stated purpose of this list?
> >     The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs
> >     & workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more
> >     pertaining to the Pine software.  While unmoderated, it is
> >     intended primarily for discussion of matters of interest
> >     to systems/email administrators, developers, trainers, user
> >     support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging
> >     on a "technical" level.
>
> Weird.  I can't seem to find harass, ridicule, or belittle listed.
> Did I miss something, or did you leave those out for a reason?

 No, probably he finds himself as moderator of this list, you can see
these god-complez types all over, you just have to filter them all to
/dev/null .

> > _Technical_ doesn't mean quotas, or random tag lines or any of the other
> > stuff that has been popular around here lately.
>
> Good point...so why do most of the posts not answer the questions, but
> insist on complaining about sigs that are too long or something else
> equally trivial and unrelated to Pine?  Those things aren't 'technical
> issues' related to Pine, either.

 This makes me laugh, of course HE decides what is technical enough for
this list (see god-complex comment above).
 Of course from someone who is a beer-loving, plaid wearing, and a
self-proclaimed asshole, this is hardly surprising. Heck, "woods" is in
his name.



-=/Yashy/=-

In a World without Walls and Fences ...
Who needs Windows and Gates ?!

NEW IRC Server          /server irc.yashy.ottawa.on.ca




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Reply-To: *selah* <[email protected]>
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From: *selah* <[email protected]>
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Subject: enabling save on crash
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I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
disconnect?

Thanks.



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From: Ken Woods <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Don't like it??? *sigh*.....WAS: Re: Farewell
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:
>
> > Somebody wrote:
> > > Why do people feel the need to announce their comings and goings?
> >
> > Maybe because they're so thoroughly disgusted with the whole situation
> > that they're making a (probably feeble, knowing several of you) attempt
> > to get you folks to wake up and help...not ridicule.
>
>    I think Ken, as well as the others, should more importantly evaluate
> their behavior, as to reflect the end-users opinions of Pine itself.

Myself, along with "the others" that you have referred to, have
decided that the pine-info list is going to be left alone. Y'all are
right, pine-info is NOT the place that we should continue our "antics"
Instead, we are going to concentrate on comp.mail.pine.

So, expect pine-info to drop back to what it was about two weeks ago.
Low traffic, wrong answers, and sheer stupidity.

Please do not send replies to this message.  They'll be pointless.
man procmail to figure out why.

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]


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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: enabling save on crash
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, *selah* wrote:

> I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
> way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
> disconnect?

I believe that is you do ^O  (Control+O) it will postpone the message,
then the next time you do "C" to compose a message, you will have the
option of starting a new one, or continuing with the old.



-=/Yashy/=-

In a World without Walls and Fences ...
Who needs Windows and Gates ?!





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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*.....WAS: Re: Farewell
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:

> Myself, along with "the others" that you have referred to, have
> decided that the pine-info list is going to be left alone. Y'all are
> right, pine-info is NOT the place that we should continue our "antics"
> Instead, we are going to concentrate on comp.mail.pine.
I'll warn everyone I can.


> So, expect pine-info to drop back to what it was about two weeks ago.
> Low traffic, wrong answers, and sheer stupidity.
Low/High traffic is an issue to those that need help?
Perhaps we can give better answers than rm -rf *
>From people like yourself.

> Please do not send replies to this message.  They'll be pointless.
> man procmail to figure out why.
Provided you were probably drunk, like usual, when you wrote this,
I'll take my chances.




sidenote: Thanks to anyone that helped deter these hoodlums from the list,
as they good have been a great asset, and it is a shame they had to act
that way. Perhaps we can turn this list into something useful.

Cheers.



-=/Yashy/=-

In a World without Walls and Fences ...
Who needs Windows and Gates ?!





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From: Lea <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: enabling save on crash
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9812071643550.1623-100000@euphoria.yashy.ottawa.on.ca>
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:

> > I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
> > way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
> > disconnect?
>
> I believe that is you do ^O  (Control+O) it will postpone the message,
> then the next time you do "C" to compose a message, you will have the
> option of starting a new one, or continuing with the old.

^O will postpone if you still have an active session.

If the user is using Pine within a Unix account, I'd suggest listing the
contents of the home directory of the account with the command

ls -la                (ls -la|more if the list is more than one screen)

Look for a filename like             #pico123456789

where 123456789 is a long random number.

If you find one of those filenames and the date and time look about right
for when the session crashed, that should be where the contents of your
compose buffer went.

What you can then do is start  Pine, open a compose screen, fill the header
out as usual,  and use ^R to read the contents of the #pico123456789 file
into the body of the message.

Lea
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Lea Andrellan       CNS Consulting Team; Helpdesk
        [email protected]  OR  [email protected]
                492-9380 (voicemail)  OR  492-9400 (helpdesk)
            http://www.ualberta.ca/~maldridg/tutor/Tutorials.html

"My spelling is wobbly", said Pooh.  "It's good spelling, but it wobbles,
and the letters get in the wrong places."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------







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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
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Clueful: Why do you set Reply-To? If your mail system automatically appends the
incorrect host name, set it yourself with "user-domain", the second option.
Only set Reply-To when you want to receive mail at another system.

>Reply-To: [email protected]
>Message-ID:
   <Pine.LNX.4.05.9812071646280.1623-100000@euphoria.yashy.ottawa.on.ca>
>From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:50:09 -0500 (EST)

>On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Ken Woods wrote:

>>Myself, along with "the others" that you have referred to, have decided that
>>the pine-info list is going to be left alone. Y'all are right, pine-info is
>>NOT the place that we should continue our "antics" Instead, we are going to
>>concentrate on comp.mail.pine.
>I'll warn everyone I can.

>>So, expect pine-info to drop back to what it was about two weeks ago.
>>Low traffic, wrong answers, and sheer stupidity.
>Low/High traffic is an issue to those that need help?
>Perhaps we can give better answers than rm -rf *
>From people like yourself.

The question is, "How can this list be of any use at all to postmasters and
system administrators if it is filled with questions that can be answered by
looking in the documentation?" Your answer is wrong.

>>Please do not send replies to this message.  They'll be pointless.
>>man procmail to figure out why.
>Provided you were probably drunk, like usual, when you wrote this,
>I'll take my chances.

The only time Ken was drunk while posting was when he answered luser questions
without the necessary insult.

>sidenote: Thanks to anyone that helped deter these hoodlums from the list,
>as they good have been a great asset, and it is a shame they had to act
>that way. Perhaps we can turn this list into something useful.

"as they good have been a great asset"

What do you mean?

You want to turn the list into something useful? Then post a question related
to running mail servers that use pine. Or answer one.


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From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
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I would like to unsubscribe to this list because it has proved to be
filled with very crude and useless people (sorry to those who actually
helped me). But this list is, I guess, not the right place for my
questions. Hopefully I have made some realize that they should get a life
and stop the insults and just make a suggestion to help those of us who
are not "computer-talented". We learn quickly, ya know?
Please unsubscribe me from this list immediately.
Stephanie

"SMALL1DER" :)



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>From: Stephanie Michelle Skinner <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:02:14 -0500 (EST)

>Hopefully I have made some realize that they should get a life
>and stop the insults and just make a suggestion to help those of us who
>are not "computer-talented". We learn quickly, ya know?
>Please unsubscribe me from this list immediately.

You learn quickly, do you? Then learn this:

Never, NEVER send unsubscribe requests to the list posting address. List
members do not want to read them. Instructions for unsubscribing are given at
the URL below, added to every single message that goes through this list.

If you join another mailing list, SAVE the instructions on sending unsubscribe
commands to the list server.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
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From: Sean Farley <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: List suggestions
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How about some compromises?  Here is my list of ideas:

1) pine-info is too general in name
       pine-admin      Help on administrating PINE
       pine-bug        Bugs to squash (Is this already there?)
       pine-devel      Development of PINE
       pine-gurus      Another possibility of above.  I like this better;
                       it may scare newbies away from it.
       pine-info       General help to others

       If anyone asks for help on anything but the help list (pine-info),
       I recommend not to flame.  Send them just the URL to the FAQ.
       (See point 3).

2) At the bottom of each message we should also post the URL to the
  FAQ instead of just a link to information about the list.  Some
  people might not know a FAQ is located at the mailing list URL.

3) The number answer in the FAQ should give a detailed explanation of
  the functions of each of the mailing lists with the help list
  surrounded by asterisks so no one may miss it.

4) If someone ignores a post--a polite post :)--telling them to read the
  FAQ, they may be flamed.  Ignorance is one thing, ignoring help--polite
  again--is another.


If anything sounds unreasonable, I can blame the cold medicine I am
taking.  :)

Sean
--------------
[email protected]


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From: Bob Rasmussen <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: List suggestions
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Those are all good suggestions.

May I point out, also: People looking for solutions will often join a list and
ask their question. To those who have been on the list for some time, it
appears that "those people" keep asking the same, inappropriate questions. And
so the flames begin. However, "this person" is not "those people", nor should
they bear the brunt of somebody's pent-up frustration with other people's
transgressions.

Metaphorically, if too many people come to your door seeking what you're not
selling, change the sign on the door!

Regards,
...Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.

personal e-mail: [email protected]
company e-mail: [email protected] or [email protected] or [email protected]
ftp://ftp.anzio.com               voice: 503-624-0360
http://www.anzio.com                 fax: 503-624-0760


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From: Shoeless in San Jose <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: enabling save on crash
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9812071643550.1623-100000@euphoria.yashy.ottawa.on.ca>
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, *selah* wrote:
>
> > I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
> > way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
> > disconnect?
>
> I believe that is you do ^O  (Control+O) it will postpone the message,
> then the next time you do "C" to compose a message, you will have the
> option of starting a new one, or continuing with the old.

Problem with that is, he's wanting to know how to recover from a
disconnect.  The only way to guarantee that you won't lose data
from that is to occasionally postpone, then exit or suspend the
pico job and save a copy of the postponed file.  I've done that
before when I have a squirrely phone line, or the ISP is having
modem troubles.  I've never seen pico consistently save during
a crash, so I've never relied on it too much.

Greg


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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Sean Farley wrote:

> How about some compromises?  Here is my list of ideas:

HEY!!!!!!

That's constructive, helpful, and thought-out. I don't think that's
allowed in here. Stop that immediately!

:)

-Ian


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From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: enabling save on crash
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:
> Problem with that is, he's wanting to know how to recover from a
> disconnect.  The only way to guarantee that you won't lose data from
> that is to occasionally postpone, then exit or suspend the pico job
> and save a copy of the postponed file.  I've done that before when I
> have a squirrely phone line, or the ISP is having modem troubles.
> I've never seen pico consistently save during a crash, so I've never
> relied on it too much.

I tend to assume everyone else that uses a unix shell knows and uses
screen.  I keep wondering how it is people get disconnects.

# w | grep winter | grep pine
winter   P0  3Cust235.tnt1.dc 13Oct98     -  (pine4)

Now, I would have had a longer running process but I restarted just for
kicks when I changed something in my .pinerc.

Anyhow, for everyone that doesn't use screen, go out and grab it, or if
you're not running your own boxes (as if most of the people are) try
typing 'screen' at your prompt.

Chances are it will be installed already.

Screen is one of the few things that you can't live without.  Its like
making a bash user use 'sh'.

--
| Matthew N. Dodd  | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS |
| [email protected] |      This Space For Rent     | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax  |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage?   |


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:20:09 -0500 (EST)
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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Clueful:

Okay listen, This list is not name calling. The Only names you have
for me are Yashy and/or Yasholomew Yashinski, and that is how I'd like to
be addressed. For the ignroant folk like yourself, I'll let you call me
mister. Anything else > /dev/null.


Why do you set Reply-To? If your mail system automatically appends the
> incorrect host name, set it yourself with "user-domain", the second option.
> Only set Reply-To when you want to receive mail at another system.
Thanks for noticing, hoever until a few days ago, they were two different
boxes, and they will be again, thus the reason I've just added the
Reply-To: header.

> >>So, expect pine-info to drop back to what it was about two weeks ago.
> >>Low traffic, wrong answers, and sheer stupidity.
> >Low/High traffic is an issue to those that need help?
> >Perhaps we can give better answers than rm -rf *
> >>From people like yourself.
>
> The question is, "How can this list be of any use at all to postmasters and
> system administrators if it is filled with questions that can be answered by
> looking in the documentation?" Your answer is wrong.
 It can be useful to all. As they chose it to be unmoderated, it could
perhaps use a statement on their part on how technical this list should
be. I think that "clueless newbies" should have someone where to ask the
questions they can't find in the FAQ etc. Especially w/o being called
names by people like yourself, or being told to erase their valuable
files.


> The only time Ken was drunk while posting was when he answered luser questions
> without the necessary insult.

I'm sure calling list members lusers is a sure fire way of gaining
friends, as well as encouraging newbies to use Pine.

> >sidenote: Thanks to anyone that helped deter these hoodlums from the list,
> >as they good have been a great asset, and it is a shame they had to act
> >that way. Perhaps we can turn this list into something useful.
>
> "as they good have been a great asset"
> What do you mean?
If you are not capable of figuring out the error in that sentence, you
weren't meant to know.

> You want to turn the list into something useful? Then post a question related
> to running mail servers that use pine. Or answer one.
 I will try to answer any I can, and without calling names etc. I would
like people to remember the pine-info list as friendly, where they can go
when they get stuck, not a list full of hostile-hicks that wish they were
real sys-admins.



.Yashy
"...and scantily clad females, of course.  Who cares if it's below zero outside."
(By Linus Torvalds)


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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: enabling save on crash
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, *selah* wrote:
> >
> > > I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
> > > way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
> > > disconnect?

By chance I was typing a Pine message at the console about two
minutes ago when I became aware of a situation requiring urgent
attention (I had modem troubles).  Forgetting about my message I did
a few hasty and drastic things, finally shutting down and rebooting
the computer that Pine was running on.  It is a Linux computer and
it was an orderly shut down, i.e. processes were signalled.

When it came up again I ran Pine and it immediately asked if I
wanted to continue editing the message that had been saved.  It
was intact.

So, if it's interrupted by a disconnect, I guess you'd be okay.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email protected]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).



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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:52:32 +0530 (IST)
Reply-To: Nayan Jain <[email protected]>
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From: Nayan Jain <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Thanks to all who helped me !
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Hi all(these all means only people who have helped me)

Its me Nayan here who had asked some questions regarding PC-PINE problem.
I am glad that i am on this list, and after some time i am just going to
be a was on this list. I am glad that i learnt a good lesson here. The
lesson is "There still are stupids,idiots,jerks in this universe, and by
mistake they have landed on earth and have joined this PINE LIST". I dont
know what people (the one who said all crap tp me when i asked for a help)
think about yourselves.Are you really that smart that you can answer each
and everything and know everything under the sky ?

People(rather stupids) like K.W. are maniacs and should be thrown out of
this list. This kind of behaviour is maligning PINE's impression on
public.

I think the problems and questions i asked were justified and if any one
of you felt that it was out of topic here then could have directed me to
proper source rather than ridiculing...abusing.

Anyway, I mjust want to thank to all the guys who have helped me here, but
now i have dropped the idea of installing PC-PINE, nothing more is
required from PINE after these discussion.

Still i have a request that you can unsubscribe people of type K.W. from
this list and you should.

Anyway Thanks again !
Nayan Jain

" minds are like parachutes -- they function best when open. "




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:42:00 +1030 (CST)
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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:

>   It can be useful to all. As they chose it to be unmoderated, it could
> perhaps use a statement on their part on how technical this list should

The express statement is that it is for administrator-level issues.
Why not believe it?  And the reason was surely to minimise traffic
and not bother the maintainers with user problems that local
administrators can handle.  To filter out what they don't want to
waste their time reading.

> be. I think that "clueless newbies" should have someone where to ask the
> questions they can't find in the FAQ etc. Especially w/o being called

A clueless newbie is a person who has not read the FAQ.  If you have
studied the documentation you are not a clueless newbie.  It is vain
to try to help them, other than by pointing to the documentation.
Or undertaking to help all newbies by writing better documentation.
You might do this by creating an index to existing documentation.

If you are enthusiastic to help a particular clueless newbie you
will write a full and careful explanation in response to the
newbie's obscure plea for help.  But that is documentation, and it
is exactly why the original documentation was written, and what you
have just written is probably better and more accurately expressed
in the pre-existing documentation.  Remember, the original problem
was that the clueless newbie didn't and wouldn't read the
documentation.  Have you spent your time fruitfully, or have you
been made a fool of?

What is needed is a footer added by the list server telling where to
look for further information.  I saw one today on a few of these
mails, and it was a very desirable improvement.  Presumably mail is
reaching me out of order, because it seems to have disappeared
again.

What is _not_ needed is the abuse that has been seen in this list.
If it is mail from a clueless newbie, simply pass on to the next
message.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email protected]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).



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From: Jan Kalin <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: enabling save on crash
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Michael Talbot-Wilson wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, *selah* wrote:
> > >
> > > > I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
> > > > way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
> > > > disconnect?
>
> the computer that Pine was running on.  It is a Linux computer and
> it was an orderly shut down, i.e. processes were signalled.
>
> So, if it's interrupted by a disconnect, I guess you'd be okay.

If Selah is running M$ Windoze I wouldn't be convinced that is the case.
I do have a suggestion, though.

Pico is s standalone program as well as being incorporated into Pine as
the 'internal' editor. What you can try is configure Pine to use the
standalone Pico as your alternate editor ("editor" variable in config).
You can invoke it either manually with ^_ (<Ctrl>+<Underscore>) or have it
enabled implicitly ("enable-alternate-editor-implicitly" variable in
config). In either case you are then actually editing a temporary file on
disk, and even if Pine gets disconnected, the file can probably be saved
under a different name and pulled back later. Try and see (and tell us if
it works).

I actually always use an alternate editor for two reasons. First is that I
am used to 'vi' and prefer it to Pico. The second is that I have a
relatively poor connection to my IMAP server and even if the connection
acts up (no response from server for up to a few minutes), you can still
compose your text. If you get a flaky connection while composing with the
internal Pico, everything freezes up until the connection is
reestablished.

Cheers,
Jan

--
Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
<A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>






--
Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
<A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>


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From: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Thanks to all who helped me !
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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Nayan Jain wrote:

> People(rather stupids) like K.W. are maniacs and should be thrown out of
> this list. This kind of behaviour is maligning PINE's impression on
> public.

This is why a number of us (probably the majority) have him going direct
to /dev/null via procmail.

His posts are hardly missed.


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Is there a way to setup PINE so that you can use foreign alphabets and
symbols from within PINE or to use non-english keyboards?




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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
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>From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:20:09 -0500 (EST)

>>Clueful:

>Okay listen, This list is not name calling.

Clueful, do NOT reply to both the list and the author, unless you are
deliberately trying to be provocative.

>>The question is, "How can this list be of any use at all to postmasters and
>>system administrators if it is filled with questions that can be answered by
>>looking in the documentation?" Your answer is wrong.
>It can be useful to all. As they chose it to be unmoderated, it could
>perhaps use a statement on their part on how technical this list should
>be. I think that "clueless newbies" should have someone where to ask the
>questions they can't find in the FAQ etc. Especially w/o being called
>names by people like yourself, or being told to erase their valuable files.

The purpose of this list is NOT to answer questions, the answer to which is in
the documentation. Clueless people can't find answers because they haven't
tried.

>I'm sure calling list members lusers is a sure fire way of gaining
>friends, as well as encouraging newbies to use Pine.

I'm not selling pine. I'd rather they didn't use it if they refuse to read the
documentation.

>> You want to turn the list into something useful? Then post a question related
>> to running mail servers that use pine. Or answer one.
>  I will try to answer any I can, and without calling names etc. I would
>like people to remember the pine-info list as friendly, where they can go
>when they get stuck, not a list full of hostile-hicks that wish they were
>real sys-admins.

In other words, you don't intend to use the list according to its stated
purpose.


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> Hmmm...by technical, I take it you mean very specific technical
> questions that most newbies don't even know to ask?  That makes a
> lot of sense.  So, if this newsgroup isn't considered to be tailored
> to the new users of Pine, why is it listed in the FAQ and on the
> Pine Web site?  Guess maybe you'd better take those links off, Mr.

Because there are some administrators and bug announcers who do read the FAQ?
Also, the intended purpose of this mailing list (not newsgroup) is stated both
in the instructions for joining and in a message that is sent to those who
join.

> Gray or whomever happens to read this and is in charge of updating
> that site.  Then, if that *is* the case, where *should* the new users
> go to have their 'non-technical' questions answered?

How about comp.mail.pine?


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From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: List suggestions
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Sean Farley wrote:
> 1) pine-info is too general in name

I completely agree. pine-info used to be linked to comp.mail.pine
and they were both for the same type of discussion: general tips,
tricks, and help about Pine. If pine-info is now supposed to be
for more technical questions, then it should have a name that
reflects that. My vote is to call it pine-tech and to
bidirectionally link it to a newsgroup called comp.mail.pine.tech
so that people have a choice of participating via a mailing list
or newsgroup and so the discussion is archived at places like
DejaNews. For consistency, I'd also like to see comp.mail.pine
bidirectionally linked (again) to a mailing list, maybe called
pine-users. Here are some reasons I'd like to see both these
groups available via both news and mail:

NEWSGROUP IS NICE BECAUSE...
* Discussion is archived on DejaNews and other sites that archive
 Usenet
* Can use news readers to participate and news readers are
 usually much better at discussion-group features like
 threading and killing
* Don't have to subscribe to be able to participate


MAILING LIST IS NICE BECAUSE...
* You don't have to worry about messages expiring
* UW Pine lists are archived and available via IMAP, e.g.,
 news-collections={ftp.cac.washington.edu/anonymous}#ftp/pine/pine-info/[]
 (they could probably do this with newsgroups too, which would
 be nice)

Someday I hope that newsgroups and mailing lists will both have
all the same positive features and none of the negative features
but until that day comes, I like giving people the option of
participating via either news or mail.


>       pine-admin      Help on administrating PINE
>       pine-bug        Bugs to squash (Is this already there?)
>       pine-devel      Development of PINE
>       pine-gurus      Another possibility of above.  I like this better;
>                       it may scare newbies away from it.
>       pine-info       General help to others


For now I think just two groups are enough (general and tech)
and I think the name "pine-info" should be retired. It's got a
confusing history (i.e., originally for general discussion and
currently for tech discussion) and it's not a very descriptive
name anyway.


> 2) At the bottom of each message we should also post the URL to the
>    FAQ instead of just a link to information about the list.  Some
>    people might not know a FAQ is located at the mailing list URL.

Yes, the blurb at the bottom of each msg should mention the FAQ
(and possibly the purpose of the discussion group), but I think
that that can be done with only one URL. Here's a possibility:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
This list is for the discussion of Pine technical issues. User-
level discussion takes place in comp.mail.pine. For information
about this mailing list, its archives, the Pine FAQ, and general
Pine information, see http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
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--

Nancy McGough           http://www.ii.com/           Infinite Ink
--= Posted via PINE: Power Internet News & Email for Win/Unix =--


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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Foreign keyboard settings
In-Reply-To: [email protected]'s message of "Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:49:20 -0500 (EST)"
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* <[email protected]> writes:

Dear nameless luser,

we regret to inform you that this list is inteded for questions regarding
the administration of networks running Pine. Your question:

> Is there a way to setup PINE so that you can use foreign alphabets
> and symbols from within PINE or to use non-english keyboards?

is better placed here: <news:comp.mail.pine>.

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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Thanks to all who helped me !
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* Ian Hall-Beyer <[email protected]> writes:
> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Nayan Jain wrote:

>> People (rather stupids) like K.W. are maniacs and should be
>> thrown out of this list.

Darling, people (rather clevers) like K.W. are admins who keep the net
you don't even begin to understand up and running. People (rather
technicals) like K.W. see to it that hypocritical, greedy, malevolent,
vengeful, cowardly, deadly, mendacious, meretricious, loathsome,
despicable, belligerent, opportunistic, barratrous, contemptible,
criminal, fascistic, bigoted, racist, sexist, avaricious, tasteless,
idiotic, brain-damaged, imbecilic, insane, arrogant, deceitful,
demented, lame, self-righteous, byzantine, conspiratorial, satanic,
fraudulent, libelous, bilious, splenetic, spastic, ignorant, clueless,
illegitimate, harmful, destructive, dumb, evasive, double-talking,
devious, revisionist, narrow, manipulative, paternalistic,
fundamentalist, dogmatic, idolatrous, unethical, cultic, diseased,
suppressive, controlling, restrictive, malignant, deceptive, mindless,
clueless, dyslexic, boring, pathetic, obsolete, dim, crazy, weird,
dystopic, stifling, uncaring, plantigrade, grim, unsympathetic,
jargon-spouting, censorious, secretive, aggressive, mind-numbing,
arassive, poisonous, flagrant, self-destructive, abusive,
socially-retarded, puerile, clueless, and generally Not Good lusers
can abuse it.

>> This kind of behaviour is maligning PINE's impression on public.
>
> This is why a number of us (probably the majority) have him going
> direct to /dev/null via procmail.

Your "majority" - empirical evidence gathered by grepping cmp and this
list - is too stooopid to even spell procmail correctly. Which is why
this mailing list was made subscriber-only and its purpose "admin
problems". Now tell me, Ian, what does a luser PC-Pine problem have to
do on this list?

> His posts are hardly missed.

Even your flames are boring, Ian. And: your actively encouraging the
abuse of this list. You know, Ian, I think this is not a Good
Thing. Do you?

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From: Sean Farley <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: List suggestions
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On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Ian Hall-Beyer wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Sean Farley wrote:
>
> > How about some compromises?  Here is my list of ideas:
>
> HEY!!!!!!
>
> That's constructive, helpful, and thought-out. I don't think that's
> allowed in here. Stop that immediately!
>
> :)
>
> -Ian

I claim it was drug induced.  I took normal instead of non-drowsy cold
medicine.  :)

Sean
--------------
[email protected]


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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: List suggestions
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>From: Bob Rasmussen <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:28:43 -0800 (PST)

>May I point out, also: People looking for solutions will often join a list and
>ask their question. To those who have been on the list for some time, it
>appears that "those people" keep asking the same, inappropriate questions. And
>so the flames begin. However, "this person" is not "those people", nor should
>they bear the brunt of somebody's pent-up frustration with other people's
>transgressions.

I suggest that if Bob feels he is in a position to volunteer that "those
people" shouldn't be flamed because they are unwilling to read the
documentation, then his e-mail box should be the official receptacle for
correspondence from "those people" to take the burden off of this list.

I further suggest that if Bob is not personally offering to take the burden off
of others, then he should not offer suggestions on what others should do.


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From: George Gallen <[email protected]>
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Subject: List Serve Reality
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The below list definitly holds true for this list :)))

Question:  How many mailing list members does it take to change a light
bulb?

Answer:     422.

One to change the light bulb and to post to the list that the light bulb
has been changed;
 14   to share similar experiences;
   7   to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs;
 27   to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing
light bulbs;
 53   to trash the spell checkers;
156  to write to the list administrator complaining about the light
bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list;
111  to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light
bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to the mail list;
  27  to post URL's where one can see examples of different light
bulbs;
  14  to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly, and to post
corrected URL's;
    6  to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they
cannot handle the light bulb controversy.
Oh yeah, and 6 to post to the list that the guy who sent the light bulb
joke has not got his arithmetic correct and that it only takes 416 list
members to change a light bulb.

George

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> From: Adam H. Kerman <[email protected]>
>
> >From: Bob Rasmussen <[email protected]>
>
> >May I point out, also: People looking for solutions will often join a list and
> >ask their question. To those who have been on the list for some time, it
> >appears that "those people" keep asking the same, inappropriate questions. And
> >so the flames begin. However, "this person" is not "those people", nor should
> >they bear the brunt of somebody's pent-up frustration with other people's
> >transgressions.
>
> I suggest that if Bob feels he is in a position to volunteer that "those
> people" shouldn't be flamed because they are unwilling to read the
> documentation, then his e-mail box should be the official receptacle for
> correspondence from "those people" to take the burden off of this list.
>
> I further suggest that if Bob is not personally offering to take the burden off
> of others, then he should not offer suggestions on what others should do.

just a thought: can ListProc be configured to insert a couple of lines of
text to every list message (I know majordomo can) - say:

-------
this list is for ....
before posting, please read the FAQ at http://.....
-------

that might head off a bunch of inappropriate posts


**************************************************************************
The Center for Civic Networking             PO Box 600618
Miles R. Fidelman, President &              Newtonville, MA 02460-0006
Director of Civic Networking Systems        617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946
[email protected]                      http://civic.net/ccn.html

Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century
Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere
Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!"
**************************************************************************



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From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: moderation and banning people
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Some people have said they'd like this group to be moderated or
that some people should be banned from the group. I'd rather see
the group stay open and that we do the following to self moderate
the group:

* Ignore abusive posts or if you feel you must respond to the
 abuser, respond privately.

* When someone sends an inappropriate message to the group, politely
 tell her that it's inappropriate and where is the appropriate
 place to get the information or ask the question. Do this
 quickly so the person gets a polite response before an abusive
 one.

* Teach people how to use Procmail or Pine to "kill" abusive
 participants. E.g., in Pine you can kill someone by using
 initial-keystroke "macros." Here's how I would kill someone
 whose email address is [email protected]:

pine -P pinerc. -p pinerc-groups. -I G,"in-l-pine-info",CR,;,T,F,"[email protected]",A,D,X

Note that this is specific to my setup.  I have pine-info msgs
filtered into a folder named in-l-pine-info and I use a config
file called pinerc-groups to override some settings in my pinerc
file.

For this self moderation to work, we need to add info to the FAQ
about how to deal with abusive participants and how to "kill"
them.

What do other people think about banning some people and/or
moderation?

--

Nancy McGough           http://www.ii.com/           Infinite Ink
--= Posted via PINE: Power Internet News & Email for Win/Unix =--


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From: George Gallen <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: moderation and banning people
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Unfortunatly, filtering causes all posts to be lost.
Yes, there are a lot of abusive posts, but even in
the harsh wording, the answer is "sometimes" also
there. So you could lose valuable information by
killing all posts of a person.

Personally, I scan the message, hit delete if it's
not relevent. If it's relevent and I can use something
I'll reply back, if I can't use something and there
is some relevence to the post, I'll reply back

If the post is just bantering (or another b word)
and has no relevence to the question, click delete
and ignore.

Once someone realizes they can't get a rise with
the inappropriate posts, they eventually stop
or you keep hitting delete.

True, it does waste time haveing to read them, but
it may also waste time by not reading them and missing
something important.

George
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:59 PM
To: Pine Discussion Forum
Subject: moderation and banning people


Some people have said they'd like this group to be moderated or
that some people should be banned from the group. I'd rather see
the group stay open and that we do the following to self moderate
the group:

* Ignore abusive posts or if you feel you must respond to the
 abuser, respond privately.

* When someone sends an inappropriate message to the group, politely
 tell her that it's inappropriate and where is the appropriate
 place to get the information or ask the question. Do this
 quickly so the person gets a polite response before an abusive
 one.

* Teach people how to use Procmail or Pine to "kill" abusive
 participants. E.g., in Pine you can kill someone by using
 initial-keystroke "macros." Here's how I would kill someone
 whose email address is [email protected]:

pine -P pinerc. -p pinerc-groups. -I
G,"in-l-pine-info",CR,;,T,F,"[email protected]",A,D,X

Note that this is specific to my setup.  I have pine-info msgs
filtered into a folder named in-l-pine-info and I use a config
file called pinerc-groups to override some settings in my pinerc
file.

For this self moderation to work, we need to add info to the FAQ
about how to deal with abusive participants and how to "kill"
them.

What do other people think about banning some people and/or
moderation?

--

Nancy McGough           http://www.ii.com/           Infinite Ink
--= Posted via PINE: Power Internet News & Email for Win/Unix =--


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From: Bob Rasmussen <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Foreign keyboard settings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981208094455.1521A-100000@snits-3.nursing.umich.edu>
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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 [email protected] wrote:

> Is there a way to setup PINE so that you can use foreign alphabets and
> symbols from within PINE or to use non-english keyboards?

The first big question is whether you're using PC-Pine or UNIX Pine. If UNIX
Pine, what are you using for a terminal? In either case, Pine is fairly
limited, although more so in the case of UNIX Pine. The apparent design
assumption is that a particular user of Pine will work in only one character
set. This is set up in the configuration area. This may address your needs.

If you receive a message on a 'charset' other than what you're set for, Pine
will notify you when you read it, but UNIX Pine at least has no capability for
translating it. You CAN however, set up an external 'viewer' for messages in
different charsets, using a ".mailcap" file. What the viewer can do will of
course be limited by the capabilities of your terminal (emulator).

I am interested in corresponding (off-list) with people facing these issues,
and possible solutions involving our multi-lingual Windows telnet client.

Regards,
...Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.

personal e-mail: [email protected]
company e-mail: [email protected] or [email protected] or [email protected]
ftp://ftp.anzio.com               voice: 503-624-0360
http://www.anzio.com                 fax: 503-624-0760


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 (EST)
Reply-To: [email protected]
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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Clueful, do NOT reply to both the list and the author, unless you are
> deliberately trying to be provocative.

Dearest Adam, as stated before, I will not reply to Clueful, so you
can find somewhere to shove your questions/blabbing.


> >  I will try to answer any I can, and without calling names etc. I would
> >like people to remember the pine-info list as friendly, where they can go
> >when they get stuck, not a list full of hostile-hicks that wish they were
> >real sys-admins.
>
> In other words, you don't intend to use the list according to its stated
> purpose.

I *HAVE* to reply here, to a a paragraph I found:

* You may also be able to find the answer to your problem, if it has
      been discussed before, in the message archives of the Pine-Info
      mailing list. Note, however, that many perceived "Pine-problems"
      may actually have nothing to do with Pine itself, but be
      indicative of another problem on the system running Pine, so only
      your local computer support people will be able to ascertain and
      correct the cause.

I also found:

* The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs &
  workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more pertaining to
  the Pine software.


It also says it primarily for admins, but stating the above sentence,
and the fact it is unmoderated, be prepared to answer non-admin questions.
Until the new users have a place to ask there questions, this seems like
the only mailing-list they have to turn too. Also note, as said numerous
times for yourself and the other "slower" list members, there is no
place where it says "for name-calling (This includes "Clueful" btw, which
you obviously aren't, as well as luser.) and for directions to delete your
hardwork."

So Adam, until you learn how to properly address me, and your elders, keep
reading.





.Yashy
"...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and
the Ugly)."
(By Matt Welsh)


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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: List suggestions
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 I applaud Bob for his efforts, as I agree with his email, and the fact
he has taken the first step. I've also decided this flame-thread is
getting rather boring, and have decided to keep any further
replies/flaming off-list, as it can go on forever, and this is not the
appropriate channel.



On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> >From: Bob Rasmussen <[email protected]>
> >Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:28:43 -0800 (PST)
>
> >May I point out, also: People looking for solutions will often join a list and
> >ask their question. To those who have been on the list for some time, it
> >appears that "those people" keep asking the same, inappropriate questions. And
> >so the flames begin. However, "this person" is not "those people", nor should
> >they bear the brunt of somebody's pent-up frustration with other people's
> >transgressions.
>
> I suggest that if Bob feels he is in a position to volunteer that "those
> people" shouldn't be flamed because they are unwilling to read the
> documentation, then his e-mail box should be the official receptacle for
> correspondence from "those people" to take the burden off of this list.
>
> I further suggest that if Bob is not personally offering to take the burden off
> of others, then he should not offer suggestions on what others should do.
>
>

.Yashy
"...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and<BR>
the Ugly)."
(By Matt Welsh)


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:21:53 -0500 (EST)
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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Thanks to all who helped me !
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On 8 Dec 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

> * Ian Hall-Beyer <[email protected]> writes:
> > On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Nayan Jain wrote:
>
> >> People (rather stupids) like K.W. are maniacs and should be
> >> thrown out of this list.
>
> Darling,
Problems addressing her be "Nayan"?


> people (rather clevers) like K.W. are admins who keep the net
> you don't even begin to understand up and running. People (rather
> technicals) like K.W. see to it that hypocritical, greedy, malevolent,
[other fine things expressing Ken]
> socially-retarded, puerile, clueless, and generally Not Good lusers
> can abuse it.

Don't you mean you are TRYING to EXPLAIN Ken?

> >> This kind of behaviour is maligning PINE's impression on public.
> >
> > This is why a number of us (probably the majority) have him going
> > direct to /dev/null via procmail.
>
> Your "majority" - empirical evidence gathered by grepping cmp and this
> list - is too stooopid to even spell procmail correctly. Which is why
> this mailing list was made subscriber-only and its purpose "admin
> problems". Now tell me, Ian, what does a luser PC-Pine problem have to
> do on this list?
If you noticed the > You might have noticed that was my comments, not
Ians, in which you can address me as Mr. Yashinkski if you'd like a reply.
However being inexperienced with pine-info, You should note that
name-calling, is not tolerated on this list

>
> > His posts are hardly missed.
>
> Even your flames are boring, Ian. And: your actively encouraging the
> abuse of this list. You know, Ian, I think this is not a Good
> Thing. Do you?

Again, my negligent friend, if Ian wrote this, perhaps it should be
directed to him. Flaming the admin-wannabies like Ken, for example, is
probably a good thing, however should be done off list.
Of course I run a server, a few actually, I guess that means I am "techie"
enough to remain on this list, as you seem to think you are moderator. As
well, anyone using localhost as smtp, must be a server admin, no?

As I said before, if you would like to reply to me, and me to actually
read it, you can address it to Mr. Yashinski. It can also have "luser"
and any other of you little names grep'd out if you want a response.
Also note I Cc'd you, to show my appreciation for your excellent knowledge
of names.
 Believe it or not, I admire you and Ken for your knowledge in Pine,
however until you can learn to channel it in a professional way, as
opposed to your normal drunk-kick antics, perhaps you should remain
unsubscribed, like Ken promised.




.Yashy
"...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and<BR>
the Ugly)."
(By Matt Welsh)



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From: Vanessa Surmonde <[email protected]>
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Subject: Flame wars: cool it.
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Okay, I don't often speak up, and when I do, it's usually to answer
technical questions (or very occasionally ask them). I think all of the
'old guard' here (Robin, Adam, Shoeless, Colin and the others) have clues,
and I think that it would mostly be agreed that I'm not a clueless luser
either. I've been on this list a year now, and I've seen times when the
list was definetly a community and the information was definetly useful,
and I've seen Robin flame people who really deserved it in some very
creative ways (And I have them saved somewhere, if anyone wants a repost
;) ), and then I've seen this. This is useless. We have had more flames
lately, and more boring, unoriginal flames, then I think I've seen in some
time here. I think the signal-to-noise ratio has gotten to the point where
it simply bites. If I want to listen to boring, snotty people whining
about pointless shit, I'll go watch talk shows. I assume everyone here has
an IQ above room temperature, and a maturity somewhat above middle school,
and I think we should act it.

As a suggestion, I think that when someone asks a really clueless
question, even a faq (perhaps esspecially a faq) a response with the
pointer to the answer and a gentle admonition to RTFM or RTFF would be the
most appropriate and most useful way of dealing with them. For example

> I can't use pine if I don't turn on my computer first. What's wrong?

Well, you'll find that it is impossible to design pine so that it can run
outside of the computer. More information on this may be found at
http://www.somedumbsite.com/really-stupid-faq. Please remember to read the
faq next time as it saves us time and energy in repeating our answer and
saves you time and energy waiting for us to repeat our answers.

Useful replies will be read and perhaps replied to. Boring flames and
replies that say "You must be a luser because you don't want us to flame
the lusers" will be forwarded to /dev/null.

If you want flame wars, read alt.flame or go to onelist and make your own
flame war list. This is about pine, and I don't have a problem with the
occasional weird discussion (making toast, anyone?) or the occasional well
written (intelligent and humourous are always good), deserved flame (or
even undeserved, if it's well written enough ;) ), but the boring,
pointless flame wars of recent have gotten very old. And no, I'm not going
to leave, because I happen to like what this list was, and I don't intend
to let it die simply because of a few, stupid flame wars.

Vinnie
--
a safe place for all of the pieces that scatter
learn to pretend there's more than love that matters - e saliers
Obligatory pathetic website at http://www.ashawna.net


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For those of you havong problems with certain members of the list,

This entry works just great for me...

# lusers
:0:
*^From:@kens.com
/dev/null

-Ian






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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Sean Farley wrote:

> I claim it was drug induced.  I took normal instead of non-drowsy cold
> medicine.  :)

What fun is that?


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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
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Clueful still insists on sending duplicate replies to the list and to my
mailbox separately. It is now clear that he is being deliberately provocative.

>From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 (EST)

>On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>In other words, you don't intend to use the list according to its stated
>>purpose.

>I *HAVE* to reply here, to a a paragraph I found:

>* You may also be able to find the answer to your problem, if it has
>       been discussed before, in the message archives of the Pine-Info
>       mailing list. Note, however, that many perceived "Pine-problems"
>       may actually have nothing to do with Pine itself, but be
>       indicative of another problem on the system running Pine, so only
>       your local computer support people will be able to ascertain and
>       correct the cause.

That is an instruction to new users to check the archives before asking their
question on the list, an excellent admonition.

>I also found:

>* The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs &
>   workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more pertaining to
>   the Pine software.

>It also says it primarily for admins, but stating the above sentence,
>and the fact it is unmoderated, be prepared to answer non-admin questions.
>Until the new users have a place to ask there questions, this seems like
>the only mailing-list they have to turn too.

This is a unique interpretation.

>So Adam, until you learn how to properly address me, and your elders, keep
>reading.

Just how old are you? You blame sending duplicate messages to me on senility?


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>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:24:43 -0500 (EST)
>From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>

>  I applaud Bob for his efforts, as I agree with his email, and the fact
>he has taken the first step. I've also decided this flame-thread is
>getting rather boring, and have decided to keep any further
>replies/flaming off-list, as it can go on forever, and this is not the
>appropriate channel.

What is the appropriate channel to get you to end your own lack of etiquette
and discontinue your annoying practice of sending duplicate replies? Do correct
your own behavior first before looking for fault in others.

No one on the list cared whether or not you are bored with this thread. Feel
free to make no further responses.


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From: Timothy J Luoma <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: moderation and banning people
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.05.9812081357440.-304949@aleph>
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       Author: Nancy this-address-is-valid McGough <[email protected]>
       Date:   Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:59:13 -0500 (EST)
       ID:     <Pine.WNT.4.05.9812081357440.-304949@aleph>

> For this self moderation to work, we need to add info to the FAQ
> about how to deal with abusive participants and how to "kill"
> them.

Why do people keep thinking the people who won't read the FAQ before they
post will read the FAQ if we add more to it?


> What do other people think about banning some people and/or
> moderation?

I vote for moderation, and I will gladly ban anyone who refuses to read the
documentation or flames an _ON_TOPIC_ post.

TjL



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       Author: Miles Fidelman <[email protected]>
       Date:   Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:32:48 -0500 (EST)
       ID:     <[email protected]>

> just a thought: can ListProc be configured to insert a couple of lines of
> text to every list message (I know majordomo can) - say:

Unfortunately people won't even read the documentation about how to
unsubscribe which is already at the foot of each message

They certainly won't bother to read the FAQ.

The only true answer is a moderated list.

I'll offer to moderate it, and promise not to use a single coarse word (and
certainly nothing like what Stephanie used) in any of my responses.

TjL



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Subject: Re: Thanks to all who helped me !
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9812081904230.17085-100000@euphoria.yashy.ottawa.on.ca>
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       Author: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
       Date:   Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:21:53 -0500 (EST)
       ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.05.9812081904230.17085-100000@euphoria.yashy.ottawa.on.ca>

> However being inexperienced with pine-info, You should note that
> name-calling, is not tolerated on this list

Um.... Yashy....  Robin has been on the list a LOT longer than you.

And who said anything about what is "not tolerated" on the list?

Who decides that?

We can't even agree that off-topic posts are not tolerated, and now you, a
newbie, want to dictate to a long-time member?

You're not making a great impression by trying to put down Robin as
"inexperienced" since he has far more knowledge about PINE than you or me.

TjL



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Subject: Re: Don't like it??? *sigh*
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       Author: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
       Date:   Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 (EST)
       ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.05.9812081850200.17085-100000@euphoria.yashy.ottawa.on.ca>

> > Clueful, do NOT reply to both the list and the author, unless you are
> > deliberately trying to be provocative.
>
> Dearest Adam, as stated before, I will not reply to Clueful, so you
> can find somewhere to shove your questions/blabbing.

Um.... you have replied to it, since you replied to the message AND mentioned it.


> It also says it primarily for admins, but stating the above
> sentence, and the fact it is unmoderated, be prepared to answer
> non-admin questions.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Just because a list is unmoderated DOES NOT mean that we have to reply to
off-topic posts.


> Until the new users have a place to ask there questions, this
> seems like the only mailing-list they have to turn too.

They HAVE a place: comp.mail.pine.

How difficult is that?????

It is on the START PAGE for PINE at http://www.washington.edu/pine/#Contact

It is actually HARDER for them to find out about the mailing list, which
then explicitly states:

       The electronic mailing list Pine-Info covers features, bugs
       & workarounds, usage, installation, customization and more
       pertaining to the Pine software. While unmoderated, it is
       intended primarily for discussion of matters of interest
       to systems/email administrators, developers, trainers, user
       support personnel, and others involved with Pine messaging
       on a "technical" level.

'administrators, developers, trainers, user support personnel, and others
involved with Pine messaging on a "technical" level.'

It is clear enough, if people bother to read.

They don't.

Do we give up and let the list be a duplication of the FAQ and the newsgroup?

I say no, a thousand times no.

Just being able to subscribe to a list does not allow you to dictate what is
acceptable for that list.  There are rules, and you need to follow them.

It's not complex.

TjL



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       Author: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email protected]>
       Date:   Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:51:59 -0700 (MST)
       ID:     <[email protected]>

> # lusers
> :0:
> *^From:@kens.com
> /dev/null

You don't need to lockfile /dev/null

Also, your From: line will never match anything as-is, you need a .* before
the @ and a space after the colon, preferably a tab or space option

Oh, and you should escape the . too so it doesn't match as a wildcard.

:0
* ^From:[       ].*@kens\.com
/dev/null

There's a space then tab in that [ ]


Hey, if we're going to go offtopic into procmail recipes, let's at least get
them syntactically correct.

TjL



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Yep, that'd be good.
Filter a whole domain.

[/etc] uname -n
kens.com
[/etc] wc -l /etc/passwd
 2532 /etc/passwd
[/etc]

Let alone the fact that I've only posted 3 messages since Friday, all of
them constructive.

You people /really/ need to get over me, and move on.

Or filter me.  Whatever.
But, for christs sake, do it correctly.


On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Ian Hall-Beyer wrote:
> For those of you havong problems with certain members of the list,
> This entry works just great for me...
>
> # lusers
> :0:
> *^From:@kens.com
> /dev/null

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]



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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> > # lusers
> > :0:
> > *^From:@kens.com
> > /dev/null

> You don't need to lockfile /dev/null

?

> Also, your From: line will never match anything as-is, you need a .* before
> the @ and a space after the colon, preferably a tab or space option

Odd, cuz I haven't seen mail from Ken in about 2 months, or about when I
added this little recipe. Mebbe it just happened to randomly work.

> Hey, if we're going to go offtopic into procmail recipes, let's at least get
> them syntactically correct.

Heh, sure, why not.


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From: Timothy J Luoma <[email protected]>
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       Author: Ian Hall-Beyer <[email protected]>
       Date:   Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:27:57 -0700 (MST)
       ID:     <[email protected]>

> > You don't need to lockfile /dev/null
>
> ?

The second colon in the first line of the recipe

:0:

is a lockfile which gets placed on the "mailbox", which is the 3rd line of
the recipe

/dev/null

so it will create /dev/null.lock to keep other files from being written to
/dev/null at the same time.

Lockfiles are used to prevent corruption of the mailbox.  In this case,
since the mailbox is /dev/null, it makes no sense to have a lockfile on it.


> > Also, your From: line will never match anything as-is, you need a .*
> > before the @ and a space after the colon, preferably a tab or space
> > option
>
> Odd, cuz I haven't seen mail from Ken in about 2 months, or about when I
> added this little recipe. Mebbe it just happened to randomly work.

That is strange.  It "shouldn't" work because it isn't "correct" but if you
say so.... still, as a model, there are improvements I would suggest in an
attempt to achieve correctness even when it doesn't seem 100% in all cases.

(for example, your recipe could match @kensicom.com or any other domain name
with a 'kens' and 'com' separated by one letter.... just happens to be that
the email you want to filter has that one letter as a '.'  Real procmail
fanatics would have you use \< and \> to delimit beginning and ends of
strings, but I never got into that personally)

TjL

ps -- please do not CC me on any further replies, I'm on the list and don't
need/want/desire/appreciate getting duplicate emails.  Thanks


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Subject: RE: Flame wars: cool it.
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For what it's worth, here's my $.02 on this issue:
1. I used to get irate at flamers, as well as lusers.
That was before I really got into procmail and accumulated
an healthy appreciation for it...ummm, maybe that's not exactly the point.
2. More likely the point is this, a delete key works just like procmail.
       Flamers vs lusers:
1. Sometimes, we inadvertently incite the flamers by protesting to/about
their rants,                   insults and generally supercilious nonsense.
2. To flame a newbie (or other non-faq reader) is counter-productive,
*except* in the most extreme circumstances.
       Moderation vs Open List:
1. I used to be an advocate of a moderated list, not so any more I must
admit. We have to be able to exchange opinions without a human filter.
2.If anyone here belongs to the HTML Writers Guild, you will know that
there's an example of a moderated list gone nuts. One sentence that doesn't
relate *exclusively* to the topic is crunched by a "censor" (sorry
"moderator"), with elaborate repetitive posts pounding home the point. After
a while, the moderator is the offender! It's also a humorless environment
BTW.
Conclusion: Open beats moderated hands down
       Other Issues:
In my opinion, the FAQ's themselves could be better written. They are
written as though the reader knows the subject well, and is referring to
them as a memory refresher only (like man pages).
Having said that, I'm gonna get flamed for it I know...ah well c'est la
guerre. The most likely response may well be; "if you believe they are so
badly written, do the whole Pine community a favor and  re-write 'em" Well,
I'm not going to do that. It's an observation only...period.
If the newbies can't be practioners of common sense, and the flamers have to
be excessively demonstrative of their enhanced knowledge level, and the
readers cannot tolerate the expanded discussion..there's:
       a) procmail
       b) the delete key
       c) Unsubscription
Moderation is a word with innumerable possible definitions. It's a quality,
a necessity when exchanging opinions in a civilized society. No one asks
that another hold a "moderate opinion". The opinions we all hold on various
subjects are sacrosanct unto the holder. We ask that others express that
opinion or position with conviction and passion. The manner of delivery must
be moderated when the sensibilities of others are concerned. As has been
said; " I disagree with your position, but I shall defend to the death your
right to express it"
The absent factor in that equation is civility. Civil discourse is a
foundation of the political process. It doesn't dilute the subject, it
merely allows the principals to exchange strongly held views with clarity,
and absent the passions that accompany the riposte to a percieved insult or
slight.
As said above, that's my $0.02 worth, delivered civilly and with profound
respect for the real contributors to this list, (all of whom know more than
I do BTW)
To my frend Robin (before his defection to kens.com, but still my friend
nonetheless)
                               Ed, TjL, Shoeless, Adam, Vinnie, Norbert, Ian
Regards,
-Colin.
--
Colin J. Raven
VP Operations, HDS Lab, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA  |  Harrsion, NY
http://linus.uhmc.sunysb.edu/~colin/



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Umm, on Sunday 7/26/98 I posted the following, specifically to deal with
Ken....
<snip>
If anyone has procmail set up, this is the perfect way to silently banish
Ken, his rantings, profanity, and generally offensive behavior...

         :0
       *^From:.*@kens.com
       /dev/null
Then, I did some reading (Ken, it's called RTFM OK?) and came up with the
following, which is probably *the* correct way to deal with the Kens of
this world...tank their mail, and autorespond 'em, informing them of said
fact!

   # This recipe will generate an autoreply header and bounce this
   # nastygram back
   # to the sender.
   # Note the lack of a c flag which means that we never see this mail.

   :0
   * ^From: .*@ kens.com
   | (formail -brt ; \
     echo "I'm ignoring your mail because you are offensive." ;\
     echo "Your email was automatically rejected by Procmail." ;\
     echo "Sooner or later, you will learn humility." ;\
     echo ""; \
     echo "                                 -me" ;\
     ) | $SENDMAIL -oi -t
## This recipe was created by Joe Gross ([email protected]) and can be found
## in the public domain at;
## http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/workshops/procmail/bounce.html
<blah blah blah>

</snip>
But then again, he probably /dev/null'ed all my posts anyway, so he probably
never read it. I haven't read anything from him since then, so I have no
clue. By the way, for the sake of bandwidth preservation, I tanked the
autoreply, since others share the network too, but you get the general idea.
Don't lockfile /dev/null BTW, it's unecessary. There's something else that
should be escaped, I think it occurs right after kens.com, but I'm too
braindead to put it together. What you have above will work though.
The problem with this is that you will miss anything Robin writes, since
he's a user on the kens.com machine...which is a pity, since what Robin has
to say is not only relevant, but acquired through self learning, which is
doubly valuable. Robin doesn't use bandwidth for useless profanity, at least
what he says is in context, and can be a dose of reality.
Regards,
-Colin
--
Colin J. Raven
VP Operations, HDS Lab, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA  |  Harrison, NY
http://linus.uhmc.sunysb.edu/~colin/

>For those of you havong problems with certain members of the list,
>
>This entry works just great for me...
>
># lusers
>:0:
>*^From:@kens.com
>/dev/null


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You people need to get a grip.

I've HONESTLY _tried_ to let this stuff die down.
However, you are all feeding off each others "KW is an asshole" messages.
Pretty soon, I'm going to be the cause for all of the problems on the
planet, as well as the reason that pine doesn't have "XYZ" features.

Guess what people???
I've posted exactly TWO messages since Friday, and both of those were
helpful.

However, still, the major topic of conversation seems to be "How big of an
asshole is Ken Woods" [1]   Get over it already!!!

Those of you that are long time members know this pattern, as we've been
thru it before.

1. lusers get on my nerves
2. I vent. [2]
3. Everybody complains and calls me an asshole [3]
4. I stop venting.
5. lusers start asking stupid questions again.
(goto step 1)

The whole cycle takes about 6 months to go thru.
It's been happening for years. It's like the sun and the moon.  There's
nothing you can do to stop it.  It's going to happen.  Don't fight it.
I'm not going to change, and neither is the pine-info list.

Bascially, just stop. I've said that I was going to leave the list alone,
and try to be constructive.

procmailing the whole domain, along with 2500 users, is NOT the answer.

--
Ken Woods
[email protected]

[1] For those of you that don't know, that's a self-proclamation...see
www.kens.com for details

[2] Me venting, includes profanity.  Profanity stirs emotion.  That's my
ONLY purpose in using it.

[3] See [1]





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On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Jan Kalin wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Michael Talbot-Wilson wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Shoeless in San Jose wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Yasholomew Yashinski wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, *selah* wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I understand that pine uses the pico editor. I was wondering if there's a
> > > > > way to enable pico to automatically save if a post gets interupted by a
> > > > > disconnect?
> >
> > the computer that Pine was running on.  It is a Linux computer and
> > it was an orderly shut down, i.e. processes were signalled.
> >
> > So, if it's interrupted by a disconnect, I guess you'd be okay.
>
> If Selah is running M$ Windoze I wouldn't be convinced that is the case.
> I do have a suggestion, though.
>
> Pico is s standalone program as well as being incorporated into Pine as
> the 'internal' editor. What you can try is configure Pine to use the
> standalone Pico as your alternate editor ("editor" variable in config).
> You can invoke it either manually with ^_ (<Ctrl>+<Underscore>) or have it
> enabled implicitly ("enable-alternate-editor-implicitly" variable in
> config). In either case you are then actually editing a temporary file on
> disk, and even if Pine gets disconnected, the file can probably be saved
> under a different name and pulled back later. Try and see (and tell us if
> it works).

Actually, I'm only talking about pico - not pine. The problem isn't
happening with pine - it's happening with slrn. Also, we're using a shell
account on the isp, (we also have a ppp account but prefer to use the
shell alot of times cause it's much faster.)

>
> I actually always use an alternate editor for two reasons. First is that I
> am used to 'vi' and prefer it to Pico. The second is that I have a
> relatively poor connection to my IMAP server and even if the connection
> acts up (no response from server for up to a few minutes), you can still
> compose your text. If you get a flaky connection while composing with the
> internal Pico, everything freezes up until the connection is
> reestablished.
>
> Cheers,
> Jan
>
> --
>  Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
>  <A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>  Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
>  <A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>
>


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From: Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Externally forced check for new mail
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This email includes a patch to provide a way for another process to force
a running PINE process to check for new mail.

My incoming email is sorted (by procmail) into various local files, which
PINE monitors as Incoming-Folders.  If the procmail process could force
a new mail check after delivery, I could increase my mail-check-interval
from 15 and yet get instant notification of new mail.

The patch adds a handler for SIGUSR1.  Patterned after the handler for
SIGWINCH, receipt of the SIGUSR1 signal causes the next check for input
(or the currently active one, if any) to return a NO_OP_IDLE, simulating a
mail-check-interval timeout.  Additionally, the "new_mail" code is flagged
to force a check regardless of the actual timeout status.

======== begin patch ========
--- pine4.05/pine/osdep/termin.unx.orig Tue Mar 31 12:09:12 1998
+++ pine4.05/pine/osdep/termin.unx      Sun Dec  6 12:09:58 1998
@@ -175,6 +175,9 @@
int     ready_for_winch = 0;
#endif

+extern jmp_buf usr1_state;
+extern int     ready_for_usr1, usr1_progress;
+
/*----------------------------------------------------------------------
     This checks whether or not a character                    (UNIX)
     is ready to be read, or it times out.
@@ -212,6 +215,27 @@
      ready_for_winch = 1;
#endif /* RESIZING */

+    if(usr1_progress <= 1){
+       if(setjmp(usr1_state) != 0){
+           usr1_progress = 2;
+           ready_for_usr1 = 0;
+
+           /*
+            * Need to unblock signal after longjmp from handler, because
+            * signal is normally unblocked upon routine exit from the handler.
+            */
+           our_sigunblock(SIGUSR1);
+       }
+       else
+         ready_for_usr1 = 1;
+    }
+
+    if(usr1_progress > 1){
+       ready_for_usr1 = 0;
+       usr1_progress = 1;      /* one more step: force "new_mail()" */
+       return(NO_OP_IDLE);
+    }
+
    switch(res=input_ready(time_out)){
      case BAIL_OUT:
       read_bail();                    /* non-tragic exit */
@@ -231,6 +255,7 @@
#ifdef RESIZING
       ready_for_winch = 0;
#endif
+       ready_for_usr1 = 0;
       return(res);
    }
}
--- pine4.05/pine/signals.c.orig        Tue Sep  1 12:48:42 1998
+++ pine4.05/pine/signals.c     Sun Dec  6 09:48:37 1998
@@ -46,6 +46,7 @@
       - Not much to do for SIGHUP
       - Not much to do for SIGTERM
       - turn SIGWINCH into a KEY_RESIZE command
+       - turn SIGUSR1 into a NO_OP_IDLE with "new_mail()" forced
       - No signals for ^Z/suspend, but do it here anyway
       - Also set up the signal handlers, and hold signals for
         critical imap sections of code.
@@ -67,6 +68,7 @@
              /* SigType is defined in os.h and is either int or void */
static SigType auger_in_signal SIG_PROTO((int));
static SigType winch_signal SIG_PROTO((int));
+static SigType usr1_signal SIG_PROTO((int));
static SigType usr2_signal SIG_PROTO((int));
static SigType alarm_signal SIG_PROTO((int));
static SigType intr_signal SIG_PROTO((int));
@@ -111,6 +113,8 @@

    init_sigwinch();

+    signal(SIGUSR1, usr1_signal);
+
    /*
     * Set up SIGUSR2 to catch signal from other software using the
     * c-client to tell us that other access to the folder is being
@@ -462,6 +466,37 @@
}


+#if !defined(DOS) && !defined(OS2)
+/*----------------------------------------------------------------------
+   Handle check mail signal -- SIGUSR1
+
+   Similarly to SIGWINCH, the signal is processed by causing a fake key
+  event to be injected into the command stream.  In this case the fake key
+  is NO_OP_IDLE.  In addition, the next call to "new_mail" will behave as
+  if called with "force" set to 1.
+   The comments above "winch_signal" regarding setjmp/longjmp also apply
+  to this function.
+  ----------------------------------------------------------------------*/
+jmp_buf  usr1_state;
+int      ready_for_usr1 = 0;
+int      usr1_progress = 0;
+
+SigType
+static usr1_signal SIG_PROTO((int sig))
+{
+    dprint(9,(debugfile, "SIGUSR1 ready_for_usr1: %d usr1_progress:%d\n",
+               ready_for_usr1, usr1_progress));
+    signal(SIGUSR1, usr1_signal);
+    if(ready_for_usr1)
+      longjmp(usr1_state, 1);
+    else
+      usr1_progress = 2;       /* two steps in processing:     */
+                               /* (1) inject NO_OP_IDLE        */
+                               /* (2) force "new_mail()"       */
+}
+#endif
+
+
#ifdef SIGCHLD
/*----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Handle child status change -- SIGCHLD
@@ -1107,6 +1142,7 @@
SigType (*hold_term) SIG_PROTO((int));
#if !defined(DOS) && !defined(OS2)
SigType (*hold_hup) SIG_PROTO((int));
+SigType (*hold_usr1) SIG_PROTO((int));
SigType (*hold_usr2) SIG_PROTO((int));
#endif

@@ -1123,6 +1159,7 @@
    stream = stream; /* For compiler complaints that this isn't used */
#if !defined(DOS) && !defined(OS2)
    hold_hup  = signal(SIGHUP, SIG_IGN);
+    hold_usr1 = signal(SIGUSR1, SIG_IGN);
    hold_usr2 = signal(SIGUSR2, SIG_IGN);
#endif
    hold_int  = signal(SIGINT, SIG_IGN);
@@ -1144,6 +1181,7 @@

#if !defined(DOS) && !defined(OS2)
    (void)signal(SIGHUP, hold_hup);
+    (void)signal(SIGUSR1, hold_usr1);
    (void)signal(SIGUSR2, hold_usr2);
#endif
    (void)signal(SIGINT, hold_int);
--- pine4.05/pine/newmail.c.orig        Fri Aug 21 19:33:02 1998
+++ pine4.05/pine/newmail.c     Sun Dec  6 10:51:07 1998
@@ -108,6 +108,18 @@
    if(!force && pine_state->unsorted_newmail)
      force = !(flags & NM_DEFER_SORT);

+#if !defined(DOS) && !defined(OS2)
+    {
+      extern int usr1_progress;
+
+      if(usr1_progress != 0){
+       /* finish SIGUSR1 handling */
+       usr1_progress = 0;
+       force = 1;
+      }
+    }
+#endif
+
    /*
     * only check every 15 seconds, unless we're compelled to
     */
======== end patch ========

--
Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>


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From: Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Small race condition with SIGWINCH
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The following patch fixes a small race condition in the handling of the
SIGWINCH signal:

======== begin patch ========
*** pine4.05/pine/osdep/termin.unx.orig Tue Mar 31 12:09:12 1998
--- pine4.05/pine/osdep/termin.unx      Sun Dec  6 12:19:58 1998
***************
*** 194,215 ****
     fflush(stdout);

 #ifdef RESIZING
!     if(winch_occured || setjmp(winch_state) != 0){
!       ready_for_winch = 0;
!       fix_windsize(ps_global);

!       /*
!        * May need to unblock signal after longjmp from handler, because
!        * signal is normally unblocked upon routine exit from the handler.
!        */
!       if(!winch_occured)
!         our_sigunblock(SIGWINCH);

       winch_occured = 0;
       return(KEY_RESIZE);
     }
-     else
-       ready_for_winch = 1;
 #endif /* RESIZING */

     switch(res=input_ready(time_out)){
--- 194,220 ----
     fflush(stdout);

 #ifdef RESIZING
!     if(!winch_occured){
!       if(setjmp(winch_state) != 0){
!           winch_occured = 1;
!           ready_for_winch = 0;

!           /*
!            * Need to unblock signal after longjmp from handler, because
!            * signal is normally unblocked upon routine exit from the handler.
!            */
!           our_sigunblock(SIGWINCH);
!       }
!       else
!         ready_for_winch = 1;
!     }

+     if(winch_occured){
       winch_occured = 0;
+       ready_for_winch = 0;
+       fix_windsize(ps_global);
       return(KEY_RESIZE);
     }
 #endif /* RESIZING */

     switch(res=input_ready(time_out)){
======== end patch ========

Refering to the original code, if a SIGWINCH signal should be received
after the test of "winch_occured" on line 197, but before the setting of
"ready_for_winch" on line 212, the signal handler will simply set
"winch_occured" and return, delaying the KEY_RESIZE return until after the
next keystroke or mail-check-interval timeout.

The patch corrects this by checking "winch_occured" again after setting up
the jmp_buf "winch_state" and enabling it via "ready_for_winch".

--
Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>



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From: Andy Robertson <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Wu-Pine Wu-Imap errors
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Hello all.

I am a new member to this list.  I have been trying
to diagnose a problem with I have been having with
Pine 4.05 and WU-Imap4.4/4.5.  I am running pine on
RedHat 5.1, the server on slackware 3.  Both on
p5-100 systems with 32 meg ram.

The problem is that every few minutes Pine's open
mailbox gets closed with an "CLOSED DUE TO ACCESS
ERROR" message.  On the server, this message is
logged in /var/log/messages "Dec  7 14:45:34 sec022
imapd[21612]: Fatal mailbox error user=support1
host=xxx.xxx.com [255.255.255.255]
mbx=/home/support1/New Mail: Unexpected changes to
mailbox (try restarting): F"  At this point the Pine
email client stops functioning properly (can't read
messages) and I have to either restart Pine or move
to a different mailbox on a different server and then
move back.

I have researched this on the pine-info archive and
dejanews.  And I have found that this is a "feature"
on recent versions of the Washington University Imap
server.  The problem is that multiple processes are
accessing the imap mailbox at once.  This could be
sendmail and a Pine client.  Could be two pine clients
reading at once.  imapd used to switch to a readonly
mode when this happened, but the designers removed
this readonly mode to conserve memory (at the
complaints from many users complaining that imapd is
a memory hog) and instead close the connection.  They
have no plans
to ever re-impliment this mode.

Pine is the only mail client that I have found that
finds this to be a problem.  Netscape and IE are
not even fazed by this, they simply connect again.

Here is my question, how do I fix this problem?
Preferrably on the server side.  I have heard one
suggestion that using qmail and maildirs with imap
would fix it, but I have found the qmail IMAP patches
to be slightly kludgy, either not working or leaving
apparent junk in the mail dirs (my CEO is obsessed
with clutter....).  Does anyone know of any other
ways to fix this?  Does the Cyrus imap server have
this problem?  I have tried to use it in the past, but
ran into problems.  The Sendmail/Procmail/Imapd team
is much cleaner.  Is there an option in pine what
would tell it to just reconnect?

I have found Pine to be an excellent mail client.  So
far I have managed to find a configuration option to
fix every problem that I have had....

This problem only rarely shows up with less used users.
Through this one imap user we have three connecting
clients and about 20k messages a day (most of which
are filtered by Procmail).  That is why I see the
problem every few minutes ;)

Thanks to everyone for reading this!  I'm open to any
suggestions.  I would prefer to stick with
wu-imapd/wu-pine, but would consider changing either
or both of these if it fixes the problem.

aNDY

Classified: I am currently in the market for a
jumping mexican bean bag chair.  If you have one in
stock, please contact me.  Price is negotiable.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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From: Martin Mokrejs <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wu-Pine Wu-Imap errors
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Re: Andy Robertson <[email protected]>

AR> I am a new member to this list.  I have been trying
AR> to diagnose a problem with I have been having with
AR> Pine 4.05 and WU-Imap4.4/4.5.  I am running pine on
AR> RedHat 5.1, the server on slackware 3.  Both on
AR> p5-100 systems with 32 meg ram.
AR>
AR> The problem is that every few minutes Pine's open
AR> mailbox gets closed with an "CLOSED DUE TO ACCESS
AR> ERROR" message.  On the server, this message is
AR> logged in /var/log/messages "Dec  7 14:45:34 sec022
AR> imapd[21612]: Fatal mailbox error user=support1
AR> host=xxx.xxx.com [255.255.255.255]

I have same problems on Digital Unix 4.0D while using pine 4.05.
I'd to mention, that I posted similar question a month ago, no response!
I'm using only pine, however, system runs sendmail/procmail,
Qualcomm popper 2.53 and Imap 4.1. However, I do not use any pop3 or imap
clients to read messages.

Pine dumps core when it detects new message in INBOX. That's most often
when quitting pine, while it most probably wants to _update_ INBOX and
delete some messages. it happens also when you for example delete all you
new messages in some previous session, and when messages are delivered
during your new session.

signal IOT/Abort trap at >*[__kill, 0x3ff800ea6c8]      beq     r19,
0x3ff800ea6e0
(dbx) where
>  0 __kill(0x3ff800df210, 0x3ffc0085c98, 0x0, 0x100000000, 0x3ff80177488)
[0x3ff800ea6c8]
  1 (unknown)() [0x3ff8019e770]
  2 __tis_raise(0x3ff80177488, 0x1400b6868, 0x3ff801147cc, 0x6,
0x3ff80160aec) [0x3ff801147c8]
  3 raise(0x3ff801147cc, 0x6, 0x3ff80160aec, 0xffffffffffffffff,
0x3ff801774b4) [0x3ff80160ae8]
  4 abort(0x120179f1c, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0xf00000000) [0x3ff801774b0]
  5 coredump() ["os.c":881, 0x120179f18]
  6 panic(message = 0x1400b6868 = "Received abort signal")
["pine.c":2963, 0x12013dd30]
  7 auger_in_signal() ["signals.c":220, 0x12015eba4]

DBX Fault: Segmentation fault

When I investigated the problem with dumped cores from full-debug
binaries, it seemed that pine "correctly" exits because of SIGKILL or
SIGHUP.

In some rare cases pine reported "CLOSED DUE TO ACCESS ERROR" while
reading messages. But again, most often it dumps while browsing INBOX and
new message appears or while quitting.

It seems that turning off the option mail-check-interval made the problem
less frequent.

I'm also waiting for some patches. ;)

Martin Mokrejs



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From: Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Bug in SHORTDATE4
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Using an index-format of:
   STATUS MSGNO SHORTDATE3 FROMORTO(33%) SIZE SUBJECT(67%)
in an 80 character wide screen (with a folder with less than 1000
messages) yields field widths of:
   STATUS     =  3
   MSGNO      =  3
   SHORTDATE3 =  8
   FROMORTO   = 17
   SIZE       =  8
   SUBJECT    = 36

However, replacing SHORTDATE3 with SHORTDATE4 i.e.:
   STATUS MSGNO SHORTDATE4 FROMORTO(33%) SIZE SUBJECT(67%)
yields field widths of:
   STATUS     =  3
   MSGNO      =  3
   SHORTDATE4 =  8
   FROMORTO   = 25
   SIZE       =  8
   SUBJECT    = 28

The incorrect percentage width calculation is caused by a minor typo,
which can be fixed by the following patch:
======== begin patch ====================================================
--- pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c.orig       Wed Sep  2 09:22:21 1998
+++ pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c    Sat Dec 12 16:44:32 1998
@@ -2154,7 +2154,7 @@
         break;

       case 10:
-         targetctype = iS3Date;
+         targetctype = iS4Date;
         break;

       case 11:
======== end patch ======================================================

However, the following patch, which replaces the entire switch statement
and explicitly numbered cases with an equivalent table lookup, results in
code which is  less susceptible to this sort of typo:
======== begin patch ====================================================
--- pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c.orig       Wed Sep  2 09:22:21 1998
+++ pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c    Mon Dec 14 08:13:19 1998
@@ -2109,71 +2109,19 @@
     * Calculate the field widths that are basically fixed in width.
     * Do them in this order in case we don't have enough space to go around.
     */
-    for(j = 0; j < 14 && space_left > 0 && some_to_calculate; j++){
-      IndexColType targetctype;
+    for(j = 0; space_left > 0 && some_to_calculate; j++){
+      static IndexColType targetctype[] = {
+         iMessNo, iStatus, iFStatus, iIStatus, iDate, iSDate, iLDate,
+         iS1Date, iS2Date, iS3Date, iS4Date, iSize, iDescripSize, iAtt
+      };

-      switch(j){
-       case 0:
-         targetctype = iMessNo;
-         break;
-
-       case 1:
-         targetctype = iStatus;
-         break;
-
-       case 2:
-         targetctype = iFStatus;
-         break;
-
-       case 3:
-         targetctype = iIStatus;
-         break;
-
-       case 4:
-         targetctype = iDate;
-         break;
-
-       case 5:
-         targetctype = iSDate;
-         break;
-
-       case 6:
-         targetctype = iLDate;
-         break;
-
-       case 7:
-         targetctype = iS1Date;
-         break;
-
-       case 8:
-         targetctype = iS2Date;
-         break;
-
-       case 9:
-         targetctype = iS3Date;
-         break;
-
-       case 10:
-         targetctype = iS3Date;
-         break;
-
-       case 11:
-         targetctype = iSize;
-         break;
-
-       case 12:
-         targetctype = iDescripSize;
-         break;
-
-       case 13:
-         targetctype = iAtt;
-         break;
-      }
+      if(j >= sizeof(targetctype)/sizeof(*targetctype))
+       break;

      for(cdesc = ps_global->index_disp_format;
         cdesc->ctype != iNothing && space_left > 0 && some_to_calculate;
         cdesc++)
-       if(cdesc->ctype == targetctype && cdesc->wtype == WeCalculate){
+       if(cdesc->ctype == targetctype[j] && cdesc->wtype == WeCalculate){
           some_to_calculate--;
           fix = min(cdesc->actual_length - cdesc->width, space_left);
           cdesc->width += fix;
======== end patch ======================================================

--
Chuck Goodhart <[email protected]>




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From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bug in SHORTDATE4
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Thanks! I like your table version. We'll use it.

--
Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Networks and Distributed Computing, Univ. of Washington, Seattle

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Chuck Goodhart wrote:

> Using an index-format of:
>     STATUS MSGNO SHORTDATE3 FROMORTO(33%) SIZE SUBJECT(67%)
> in an 80 character wide screen (with a folder with less than 1000
> messages) yields field widths of:
>     STATUS     =  3
>     MSGNO      =  3
>     SHORTDATE3 =  8
>     FROMORTO   = 17
>     SIZE       =  8
>     SUBJECT    = 36
>
> However, replacing SHORTDATE3 with SHORTDATE4 i.e.:
>     STATUS MSGNO SHORTDATE4 FROMORTO(33%) SIZE SUBJECT(67%)
> yields field widths of:
>     STATUS     =  3
>     MSGNO      =  3
>     SHORTDATE4 =  8
>     FROMORTO   = 25
>     SIZE       =  8
>     SUBJECT    = 28
>
> The incorrect percentage width calculation is caused by a minor typo,
> which can be fixed by the following patch:
> ======== begin patch ====================================================
> --- pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c.orig     Wed Sep  2 09:22:21 1998
> +++ pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c  Sat Dec 12 16:44:32 1998
> @@ -2154,7 +2154,7 @@
>         break;
>
>       case 10:
> -       targetctype = iS3Date;
> +       targetctype = iS4Date;
>         break;
>
>       case 11:
> ======== end patch ======================================================
>
> However, the following patch, which replaces the entire switch statement
> and explicitly numbered cases with an equivalent table lookup, results in
> code which is  less susceptible to this sort of typo:
> ======== begin patch ====================================================
> --- pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c.orig     Wed Sep  2 09:22:21 1998
> +++ pine4.05/pine/mailindx.c  Mon Dec 14 08:13:19 1998
> @@ -2109,71 +2109,19 @@
>       * Calculate the field widths that are basically fixed in width.
>       * Do them in this order in case we don't have enough space to go around.
>       */
> -    for(j = 0; j < 14 && space_left > 0 && some_to_calculate; j++){
> -      IndexColType targetctype;
> +    for(j = 0; space_left > 0 && some_to_calculate; j++){
> +      static IndexColType targetctype[] = {
> +       iMessNo, iStatus, iFStatus, iIStatus, iDate, iSDate, iLDate,
> +       iS1Date, iS2Date, iS3Date, iS4Date, iSize, iDescripSize, iAtt
> +      };
>
> -      switch(j){
> -     case 0:
> -       targetctype = iMessNo;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 1:
> -       targetctype = iStatus;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 2:
> -       targetctype = iFStatus;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 3:
> -       targetctype = iIStatus;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 4:
> -       targetctype = iDate;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 5:
> -       targetctype = iSDate;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 6:
> -       targetctype = iLDate;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 7:
> -       targetctype = iS1Date;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 8:
> -       targetctype = iS2Date;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 9:
> -       targetctype = iS3Date;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 10:
> -       targetctype = iS3Date;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 11:
> -       targetctype = iSize;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 12:
> -       targetctype = iDescripSize;
> -       break;
> -
> -     case 13:
> -       targetctype = iAtt;
> -       break;
> -      }
> +      if(j >= sizeof(targetctype)/sizeof(*targetctype))
> +     break;
>
>        for(cdesc = ps_global->index_disp_format;
>         cdesc->ctype != iNothing && space_left > 0 && some_to_calculate;
>         cdesc++)
> -     if(cdesc->ctype == targetctype && cdesc->wtype == WeCalculate){
> +     if(cdesc->ctype == targetctype[j] && cdesc->wtype == WeCalculate){
>           some_to_calculate--;
>           fix = min(cdesc->actual_length - cdesc->width, space_left);
>           cdesc->width += fix;
> ======== end patch ======================================================
>
>


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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:06:49 -0500 (EST)
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From: Shawn Jeffries <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: [4.04] problem with Global addressbook
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It seems that some aspect of global addressbooks was changed in 4.04.
I can only find a short reference to it in the release notes.

After installing 4.04 (and 4.05), I found that my global addressbook
was no longer available for use. As soon as it was accessed, it became
Un-Readable and showed the following error message :

    /some/path/.addressbook : Cross-device link

I know this error comes up when you try to make a link to a file located
on a different physical device. The solution is usually to create a
symbolic link. Here, the global addressbook is on the same device (same
partition) as my users home dirs, but my pine executable is not. I am
running Solaris 2.5.1 . I restored 4.03 and the problem didn't recur.

Can anyone suggest a solution to my addressbook troubles so I can
install 4.05?

Thanks,
--
   Shawn Jeffries
   [email protected]


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From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pine 3.96 index building fetish... (and fix)
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Jeffrey,
  That should work ok. This comparison is now done in a smarter way that
doesn't depend on system load in Pine4.05. Thanks.

--
Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Networks and Distributed Computing, Univ. of Washington, Seattle

On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Jeffrey Hundstad wrote:

> We at Minnesota State Unversity, Mankato, use pine3.96 to access our
> Simeon IMAP server.  We have a campus address book that has been made
> read-only.  This file gets indexed into a lu file once each rebuild.
>
> In the summer (or as it turns out during low usage days) everything
> works JUST FINE.  ...but most of the time when composing a message
> (during alias expansion) the system THINKS that the lu file on our
> read-only address books is out of date and causes a /tmp/a3nnnnnn lu
> file to be created for each read-only address book for EACH user
> trying to compose a message (OUCH).  Pine also complains that the
> mtime is ~1-12 seconds too new.
>
> It appears that pine encodes the creation time for the lu file
> internally.  This time is then compared against the mtime of the text
> address book.  If the text file is newer than the lu then the lu is
> rebuilt.  By placing a fuzz factor of a few seconds between the time
> encoded in the lu file and the mtime, the overzealous remaking of lu
> files has stopped.  Does anyone see anything completely insane in
> doing this?
>
> diff -r pine3.96/pine/adrbklib.c pine3.96a/pine/adrbklib.c
> 357c357
> <               if((timestamp=get_timestamp_from_disk(ab->fp_hash)) >= mtime){
> ---
> >               if((timestamp=get_timestamp_from_disk(ab->fp_hash)) >= (mtime-30)){
>
>
>
>


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From: Mercedes Gimenez <[email protected]>
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Subject: check mails problem
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Hello all. I have defined "mail-check-interval=3D60", but I only can get new
mails
leaving pine and open it again. I can=B4t  neither  get mails whit ctrl-L
or ESC ESC L. What I am doing wrong??

I have pine 4 in a SunOS 5.6 sparc,  an the INBOX is looking in a VAX/VMS
accoun
t.

Apologize for my english and best regards,


--
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Try hitting 'n' or 'TAB'.

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Mercedes Gimenez wrote:

MG> Hello all. I have defined "mail-check-interval=60", but I only can get new
MG> mails
MG> leaving pine and open it again. I can4t  neither  get mails whit ctrl-L
MG> or ESC ESC L. What I am doing wrong??

############################################################################
# Florian Kolbe - [email protected]                            #
############################################################################


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Hello !!!

My Pine 4.04 is getting slower. When it moves pages from INBOX to read
foler it takes very long time. Is there any solutions to this?

                                                               Bye.

                                         //////
     xxxxxx                             ( o o )
     xx  xx           /------------oOO-----O-----OOo------------\
     xx  xx           |           From: Iztok Polanic           |
      xxxx            |  E-mail: [email protected]  |
     xx  xx           |      WWW: http://kotzi.home.ml.org      |
    xx    xx          |            http://www.intering.si       |
   xx      xx         \-----------------------------------------/


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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
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Quoting Iztok Polanic ([email protected]):
> Hello !!!

Do I know you?

> My Pine 4.04 is getting slower. When it moves pages from INBOX to read
> foler it takes very long time. Is there any solutions to this?

I you limited your signature to 4 lines, your mail folder would be 50%
smaller.

--
Robin S. Socha
<http://socha.net/>

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From: Mercedes Gimenez <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: check mails problem
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]
konstanz.de>
References: <[email protected]>
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Thank you Florian, but whith N or TAB I have the same problem.
Best regards,=20
=20

At 16:41 17/12/98 +0100, Florian Kolbe wrote:
>
>Try hitting 'n' or 'TAB'.
>
>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Mercedes Gimenez wrote:
>
>MG> Hello all. I have defined "mail-check-interval=3D60", but I only can
get new
>MG> mails
>MG> leaving pine and open it again. I can4t  neither  get mails whit
ctrl-L
>MG> or ESC ESC L. What I am doing wrong??
>
>##########################################################################
##
># Florian Kolbe - [email protected]
#
>##########################################################################
##
>
>
--
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From: Jan Kalin <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: check mails problem
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> >MG> Hello all. I have defined "mail-check-interval=60", but I only can
> get new
> MG> mails MG> leaving pine and open it again. I can4t  neither  get
> mails whit
> ctrl-L
> >MG> or ESC ESC L. What I am doing wrong??

Just to be sure: Are you accessing mail with IMAP or POP3?

Cheers,
Jan

--
Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
<A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>


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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:52:21 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
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From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: check mails problem
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I'm told that at least some VMS-based IMAP servers do not do new mail
checking/notification.

In other words, I don't think this is a problem with Pine.

-teg

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Mercedes Gimenez wrote:

> Thank you Florian, but whith N or TAB I have the same problem.
> Best regards,
>
>
> At 16:41 17/12/98 +0100, Florian Kolbe wrote:
> >
> >Try hitting 'n' or 'TAB'.
> >
> >On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Mercedes Gimenez wrote:
> >
> >MG> Hello all. I have defined "mail-check-interval=60", but I only can
> get new
> >MG> mails
> >MG> leaving pine and open it again. I can4t  neither  get mails whit
> ctrl-L
> >MG> or ESC ESC L. What I am doing wrong??
> >
> >##########################################################################
> ##
> ># Florian Kolbe - [email protected]
>  #
> >##########################################################################
> ##
> >
> >
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Postmaster de la U.A.M.                      e-mail: [email protected]
> Servicio de Inform�tica
> Fac. de Econ�micas, E-VI-110
> Universidad Aut�noma de Madrid
> Crta. de Colmenar, Km. 15                   Fax : +34  91  397 39 14
> E-28049 Cantoblanco.Espa�a (SPAIN)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


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From: Iztok Polanic <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Slower
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On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

> > My Pine 4.04 is getting slower. When it moves pages from INBOX to read
> > foler it takes very long time. Is there any solutions to this?
>
> I you limited your signature to 4 lines, your mail folder would be 50%
> smaller.
Hello !!!

What cained of a response is this. I can have what cained of signature I
like. If you don't have anything smart to say then shut up...I guess you
will be quiet for the rest of your life!

                                                               Bye.


                                         //////
     xxxxxx                             ( o o )
     xx  xx           /------------oOO-----O-----OOo------------\
     xx  xx           |           From: Iztok Polanic           |
      xxxx            |  E-mail: [email protected]  |
     xx  xx           |      WWW: http://kotzi.home.ml.org      |
    xx    xx          |            http://www.intering.si       |
   xx      xx         \-----------------------------------------/



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On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Iztok Polanic wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:
>
> > > My Pine 4.04 is getting slower. When it moves pages from INBOX to read
> > > foler it takes very long time. Is there any solutions to this?
> >
> > I you limited your signature to 4 lines, your mail folder would be 50%
> > smaller.
> Hello !!!
>
> What cained of a response is this. I can have what cained of signature I
> like. If you don't have anything smart to say then shut up...I guess you
> will be quiet for the rest of your life!

The point is this:  Every time you put a new file in your file cabinet, it
takes longer to sort the files, right?  How many hundred messages do you now
have in your "read mail" folder?


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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Slower
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On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Daniel Sands wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Iztok Polanic wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:
> >
> > > > My Pine 4.04 is getting slower. When it moves pages from INBOX to read
> > > > foler it takes very long time. Is there any solutions to this?
> > >
> > > I you limited your signature to 4 lines, your mail folder would be 50%
> > > smaller.
> > Hello !!!
> >
> > What cained of a response is this. I can have what cained of signature I
> > like. If you don't have anything smart to say then shut up...I guess you
> > will be quiet for the rest of your life!
>
> The point is this:  Every time you put a new file in your file cabinet, it
> takes longer to sort the files, right?  How many hundred messages do you now
> have in your "read mail" folder?

There is supposed to be MH folder support via folder names beginning
with #mh/ but it seems to be read only, i.e. you can't create such a
folder.  If you could, I think it would solve the problem of slow
sorting of mail when there are many items.  Then, each mail item
would be a separate file.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email protected]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).


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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:57:27 +0100
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From: Mercedes Gimenez <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: check mails problem
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Hello all. I have been access to INBOX whith POP3 in this way:


inbox-path              =3D {bosque.sdi.uam.es/pop3/user=3Daliciaa}INBOX

Regards,=20


At 17:35 17/12/98 +0100, Jan Kalin wrote:
>> >MG> Hello all. I have defined "mail-check-interval=3D60", but I only can
>> get new
>> MG> mails MG> leaving pine and open it again. I can4t  neither  get
>> mails whit
>> ctrl-L
>> >MG> or ESC ESC L. What I am doing wrong??
>
>Just to be sure: Are you accessing mail with IMAP or POP3?
>
>Cheers,
>Jan
>
>--=20
> Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
> <A HREF=3D"http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>
>
>
--
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From: Jan Kalin <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: check mails problem
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On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Mercedes Gimenez wrote:

> Hello all. I have been access to INBOX whith POP3 in this way:
> inbox-path              = {bosque.sdi.uam.es/pop3/user=aliciaa}INBOX

Ahh, that explains it. Take a look at the Pine FAQ, specifically topic
3.17. An excerpt from the FAQ: Pine will start a POP3 session and keep it
open until the mailbox is closed. Due to the nature of the POP3 protocol,
Pine will not see any new mail which arrives during the POP3 session.

I believe that answers your question.

Cheers,
Jan

--
Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
<A HREF="http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>


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On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Daniel Sands wrote:

>
>
> The point is this:  Every time you put a new file in your file cabinet, it
> takes longer to sort the files, right?  How many hundred messages do you now
> have in your "read mail" folder?
>
Too much :(

                                                               Bye.

                                         //////
     xxxxxx                             ( o o )
     xx  xx           /------------oOO-----O-----OOo------------\
     xx  xx           |           From: Iztok Polanic           |
      xxxx            |  E-mail: [email protected]  |
     xx  xx           |      WWW: http://kotzi.home.ml.org      |
    xx    xx          |            http://www.intering.si       |
   xx      xx         \-----------------------------------------/



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To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: check mails problem
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References: <[email protected]>
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Thank you very much Jan. You have answered perfectly my question.

Cheers

At 15:06 18/12/98 +0100, Jan Kalin wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Mercedes Gimenez wrote:
>
>> Hello all. I have been access to INBOX whith POP3 in this way:
>> inbox-path              =3D {bosque.sdi.uam.es/pop3/user=3Daliciaa}INBOX
>
>Ahh, that explains it. Take a look at the Pine FAQ, specifically topic
>3.17. An excerpt from the FAQ: Pine will start a POP3 session and keep it
>open until the mailbox is closed. Due to the nature of the POP3 protocol,
>Pine will not see any new mail which arrives during the POP3 session.=20
>
>I believe that answers your question.
>
>Cheers,
>Jan
>
>--=20
> Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
> <A HREF=3D"http://www.zag.si/~jank/"> contact information </A>
>
>
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From: Stephen Casner <[email protected]>
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Subject: Selections that partially miss
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I wonder if others are seeing this problem: when selecting messages
based on subject text and using ^X to take the subject from the
current message, only some of the messages with that subject are
selected.  The obvious answer is that the subject text is different in
some way that is not immediately apparent.  For example, just now this
occurred because there was a space on the end of the subject for some
of the messages (including the one ^X'd) and not on the others.  But I
was aware of that potential problem and in some previous instances
I've verified that there was no space on the end.  Is there some other
"invisible" difference I should look for?

Meanwhile, I would recommend to the Pine implementors that a space on
the end of the subject search string should be ignored.

And while I'm at it, two of my current selection wishes:

 - match on text in either To or Cc fields (rather than having to
   select on To and then broaden with a selection on Cc)

 - when narrowing the selection, to only look at the messages in the
   current selection, rather than searching them all again and taking
   the intersection (which is slow for big files -- please no flames
   about keeping files small)
                                                       -- Steve


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Subject: A feature of GNUS.
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The following appeared on the Majordomo mailing list.  It appears
that GNUS recognises the header Mail-Copies-To which prevents
responses to the newsgroup from being mailed.

The idea for an MUA could be that a header could be set by default
such that if there was a To: which was not the recipient's address,
and the header in the original mail had survived the original
journey, the reply would go to the To: address, not the From:
address, by default.

The problem is that some mailing lists, including this one, don't
set "Reply-To:" to direct replies to the mailing list.  On such
lists there are periodically furious complaints mailed by people who
have received duplicates, one directly and one via the list, and who
are in any case prone to furious complaint over trifles.

As someone else contributed, lists that set Reply-To: [e.g. the CERT
Advisory list, Forens-L and many others] seem to not have
complaints over list operation.  I suppose, though, that their
servers have somewhat heavier load per subscriber.

The ability to set such a header by default, and respect it when
set, could provide the benefits of Reply-To without whatever
disadvantages discourage its use in some quarters.

I know that someone will say that instead of yapping about it I
should contribute a patch, but I personally am not particularly
bothered by such duplicates.  Perhaps one of those who are prone to
complain could take up the idea.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email protected]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:26:15 -0600
From: Jason L Tibbitts III <[email protected]>

..
AHK> Even Jason Cc'ed me! Aargh. And he's not even a pine user.

..
But if you really don't like the duplicates, help us out.  I use Gnus, so a
Mail-Copies-To: never header would have eliminated that CC.  One day there
will be a standard for this.  Until then, fix it on your end or stop
expecting people to be mind readers.

- J<



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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A feature of GNUS.
In-Reply-To: Michael Talbot-Wilson's message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:01:05 +1030 (CST)"
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* Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email protected]> writes:

> It appears that GNUS recognises the header Mail-Copies-To which prevents
> responses to the newsgroup from being mailed.

It's called Gnus, GNUS died a couple of years ago.

[...]
> The problem is that some mailing lists, including this one, don't set
> "Reply-To:" to direct replies to the mailing list.

Taking into account that this is not a list for user questions, it is safe
to assume that everyone here knows what they're doing. It seems a good idea
to change it.

Gnus doesn't show the mentioned behaviour by default, however, and something
like this is still on the wish list: `C-f C-t' should ask the user whether
to heed mail-copies-to: never. I would consider this a good feature in pine.

> The ability to set such a header by default, and respect it when set,
> could provide the benefits of Reply-To without whatever disadvantages
> discourage its use in some quarters.

I sense a slight misunderstanding here. IIRC, this is meant for Newsgroups,
where "X-send-copies-to: never" is to prevent Cc:s. Correct me if I'm wrong,
because I cannot find this in the Gnus info files.

But while we're at it: there is another feature of Gnus (and mutt) that seems
desirable. In Gnus it's called posting-style, in mutt folder-hook. It's a
function that lets you set e.g. your email-address depending on which folder
you're in. Very nice.

--
Robin S. Socha  <http://socha.net/>

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From: Sean Farley <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: A feature of GNUS.
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On 19 Dec 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

> * Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email protected]> writes:
>
> But while we're at it: there is another feature of Gnus (and mutt) that seems
> desirable. In Gnus it's called posting-style, in mutt folder-hook. It's a
> function that lets you set e.g. your email-address depending on which folder
> you're in. Very nice.

That would be a nice feature.  I currently have several incoming mail
folders, and a feature to automatically set up my e-mail address would be
great.

Does it alter the From: or Reply-to: headers?

Sean
---------------
[email protected]


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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A feature of GNUS.
In-Reply-To: Sean Farley's message of "Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:34:33 -0500 (EST)"
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* Sean Farley <[email protected]> writes:
> On 19 Dec 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

[different header stuff]

> Does it alter the From: or Reply-to: headers?

I can only speak for Gnus:

`gnus-posting-style-alist'
 value:
 ((organization . message-user-organization)
  (signature . message-signature)
  (signature-file . message-signature-file)
  (address . user-mail-address)
  (name . user-full-name))

At least that's what it does by default. I've once hacked it to do some
X-header stuff as well. Wasn't worth the trouble, but changing the from:
header on the fly is kinda nifty.

--
Robin S. Socha  <http://socha.net/>

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From: Karl Zander <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Terminal freeze up on HP-UX 10.20
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I have been working for several weeks on a problem with
PINE freezing up on terminals under HP-UX 10.20.  We used
the pre-compiled binaries from the U of Washington site.

Mail sending and receiving works fine.  But when staff are
reading a message and use the arrow keys to scroll up or
down in a message, the terminal will freeze up after
scrolling a few lines or sometimes a few pages.

I have been trying different settings in the /etc/gettydefs
file.  I have been able to improve the situation, but not
eliminate it.

If we use PICO as a stand alone editor, we see the same
behavior.  VI works fine.

As I understand, by default, PINE and PICO use TERMCAP.
I am willing to re-compile with TERMINFO.

My question to the list is:  Am I looking in the right
places: gettydefs, TERMINFO/TERMCAP?  I have not seen
other reports of this behavior on this list, so I am
assuming I have a problem on my system.  Has anyone else
seen this problem?


Karl Zander
Communication Partners International
em: [email protected]

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Selections that partially miss
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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>From: Stephen Casner <[email protected]>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:48:37 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)

>I wonder if others are seeing this problem: when selecting messages based on
>subject text and using ^X to take the subject from the current message, only
>some of the messages with that subject are selected.  The obvious answer is
>that the subject text is different in some way that is not immediately
>apparent.  For example, just now this occurred because there was a space on
>the end of the subject for some of the messages (including the one ^X'd) and
>not on the others.

Some mail gateways, transport agents, and clients (including pine) delete
trailing spaces.

Hm. I can't think of any reason why trailing spaces shouldn't be ignored during
select.

>But I was aware of that potential problem and in some previous instances I've
>verified that there was no space on the end.  Is there some other "invisible"
>difference I should look for?

Perhaps "Re: " at the beginning or that Microsloth convention at the end
" - Reply"? Not ignoring the first is really lousy searching technique.


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From: "Marie.Jackson" <[email protected]>
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Subject: pine and MS Outlook
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I've searched the archives for this, but haven't found anything.  I
apologise if it's all old hat to you.

We have used pine as our email front-end on our Unix box for several
years now, and have found it most reliable.  However, I'm getting one or
two problems, associated with email sent with MicroSoft Outlook.  One
student as good as accused me of tampering with his mail. The message was
in his spooled mail file, but did not show up on an INBOX listing.  The
mailx front-end, which is pretty basic, could see the message.  In
another case, the Outlook message and a 2nd message were attached to the
end of another message - pine couldn't detect any separation between the
Outlook message and the messages fore and aft of it.  Again, I had to use
mailx to split them up.  The only common factor so far has been MS
Outlook 8.5

We are using pine 3.91, our email server is sendmail 8.8.8 and our
delivery agent is /bin/mail, as supplied with Solaris 2.5

I'm not sure where to start on this, and would value your views.

Marie Jackson
Computer Support Services
Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College
High Wycombe
Bucks.  HP11 2JZ
UK

Email: [email protected]
Tel: 01494 522141 X3404
Fax: 01494 464729

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Subject: more on pine and MS Outlook
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>We are using pine 3.91, our email server is sendmail 8.8.8 and our
>delivery agent is /bin/mail, as supplied with Solaris 2.5

Following some prompting from Mike Brudenell at York (thanks Mike), here
is more information.  Pine is accessing the spooled mail direct  i.e. not
POP or IMAP.  We are using an old version of pine, on the grounds that
"if it ain't broke don't fix it".  However, if these symptoms mean it's
broke, then we'll move to a newer version to fix it!


Marie Jackson
Computer Support Services
Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College
.etc.


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From: Andy Tsouladze <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Viewing attachments - suffix not saved.
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I was not able to find this problem in the archives, so I am reporting it
here.

When pine uses mailcap for viewing MIME attachments, it creates a
temporary file /var/tmp/<filename>, where <filename> is of a form:

img-<ABC><NNNNNN>

ABC is a three uppercase characters which seem to be derived from MIME
subtype (I am not really sure about it), while
NNNNNN is Pine PID padded on the left side with 0's. Unfortunately, Pine
drops the original file extension (suffix). E.g., if the attached file is
file.doc, the temporary file name may be something like img-MSW003462.

Some viewer programs are content if they are fed files without a proper
suffix, others are not.

In my situation, the problem is even worse. For reasons beyond the scope
of this posting, I have to pass attached files through a script which
deals with many file types and gets input from many programs. This
script has no way of knowing what the original file used to be.

So my suggestion is to keep the original file suffix, so that the
temporary file from my example above will look like img-MSW003462.doc.

Is there a workaround?

Regards,

Andy

Dr Andy Tsouladze
Unix System Administrator
Motorola Communications Israel
mailto:[email protected]
mailto:[email protected] (old)
mailto:[email protected]
http://www.spl.co.il/~andy


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From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: more on pine and MS Outlook
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Marie,
You are in the best position to determine whether or not a newer version
of Pine will fix the problem, since most of us do not experience your
symptoms... I can assure you that more than a few things have changed in
the four years since 3.91 was released.  Mostly improvements, we think :)

-teg

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Marie.Jackson wrote:

> >We are using pine 3.91, our email server is sendmail 8.8.8 and our
> >delivery agent is /bin/mail, as supplied with Solaris 2.5
>
> Following some prompting from Mike Brudenell at York (thanks Mike), here
> is more information.  Pine is accessing the spooled mail direct  i.e. not
> POP or IMAP.  We are using an old version of pine, on the grounds that
> "if it ain't broke don't fix it".  However, if these symptoms mean it's
> broke, then we'll move to a newer version to fix it!


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From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Selections that partially miss
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We're intentionally leaving the trailing space so that you can match
_word_. We'd like to not introduce any quoting mechanism like " word ",
since that'll just confuse people and it hasn't been like that before. A
possible change that might make sense (to us) is to strip the trailing
space when you type the ^X command to get the subject from the current
message, but we lean towards leaving that the way it is now, too.

--
Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Networks and Distributed Computing, Univ. of Washington, Seattle



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On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Andy Tsouladze wrote:

> I was not able to find this problem in the archives, so I am reporting it
> here.
>
> When pine uses mailcap for viewing MIME attachments, it creates a
> temporary file /var/tmp/<filename>, where <filename> is of a form:
>
> img-<ABC><NNNNNN>
>
> ABC is a three uppercase characters which seem to be derived from MIME
> subtype (I am not really sure about it), while
> NNNNNN is Pine PID padded on the left side with 0's. Unfortunately, Pine
> drops the original file extension (suffix). E.g., if the attached file is
> file.doc, the temporary file name may be something like img-MSW003462.
>
> Some viewer programs are content if they are fed files without a proper
> suffix, others are not.
> ...

We solved this problem by telling mailcap to run a shell script, telling that
script also (via a parameter) the MIME type, which we then parsed with a 'cut'
command. The script then in effect created a new file name, appending the
extension (derived from the MIME type) to the temporary file name.

Details can be found at
  www.anzio.com/support/pine.htm

Regards,
...Bob Rasmussen,   President,   Rasmussen Software, Inc.

personal e-mail: [email protected]
company e-mail: [email protected] or [email protected] or [email protected]
ftp://ftp.anzio.com               voice: 503-624-0360
http://www.anzio.com                 fax: 503-624-0760


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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:59:45 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
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From: Stephen Casner <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Selections that partially miss
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.4.10.9812211012360.29316-100000@shiva1.cac.washington.edu>
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On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Steve Hubert wrote:

> A possible change that might make sense (to us) is to strip the trailing
> space when you type the ^X command to get the subject from the current
> message, but we lean towards leaving that the way it is now, too.

I favor this change -- it would solve this particular problem for me.

As I mentioned in my message, I think there are also some other cases
where the subject match partiallly misses and no trailing space was
involved (I believe).  I guess nobody else has experienced this.  I'll
try to investigate more thoroughly next time it happens.

                                                       -- Steve


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From: Michael Talbot-Wilson <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pine and MS Outlook
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Marie.Jackson wrote:

> We have used pine as our email front-end on our Unix box for several
> years now, and have found it most reliable.  However, I'm getting one or
> two problems, associated with email sent with MicroSoft Outlook.  One
> student as good as accused me of tampering with his mail. The message was
> in his spooled mail file, but did not show up on an INBOX listing.  The
> mailx front-end, which is pretty basic, could see the message.  In
> another case, the Outlook message and a 2nd message were attached to the
> end of another message - pine couldn't detect any separation between the
> Outlook message and the messages fore and aft of it.  Again, I had to use
> mailx to split them up.  The only common factor so far has been MS
> Outlook 8.5
>
> We are using pine 3.91, our email server is sendmail 8.8.8 and our
> delivery agent is /bin/mail, as supplied with Solaris 2.5

It is most likely a matter of "innovative" headers that later
versions of pine can handle.  You have no problems with mailx, and
are receiving the mail by SMTP using sendmail 8.8.8, i.e. the
separations must the there, so it is unlikely that the problem is
anywhere else.

Your pragmatic course is to upgrade and see if the problem persists.

If it does, take a look at the headers of the offending mail and
see if they verify against RFC 822 and RFC 1132.

--
Michael Talbot-Wilson ------------------- [email protected]
"Many good morrows to my noble lord!" - Catesby greeting Hastings
(Richard III, Act III, Scene II).
..                  How do you pronounce W'ows, "Win" or "Woes"?


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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Selections that partially miss
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.4.10.9812211012360.29316-100000@shiva1.cac.washington.edu>
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>From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:16:30 -0800 (PST)

>We're intentionally leaving the trailing space so that you can match
>_word_. We'd like to not introduce any quoting mechanism like " word ",
>since that'll just confuse people and it hasn't been like that before. A
>possible change that might make sense (to us) is to strip the trailing
>space when you type the ^X command to get the subject from the current
>message, but we lean towards leaving that the way it is now, too.

You have convinced me that matching trailing space is useful. But a more
powerful searching method would be nice that would let us use metacharacters.

Steve, how about introducing a method of ignoring leading "Re: " and variants?

How about putting ^X on the submenu under ";" or at least "text"? It would save
quite a few keystrokes.


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From: Shane Wegner <[email protected]>
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Subject: moderation
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Hi,

I am attempting to run a moderated mailing list using pine and have a
problem.  My mailing list software sends a perspective message to me and I
approve it by adding an Approved: header to it.  I do this with the custom
headers option.  However, the bounce (b) from the message reader command
doesn't let me add a header so it doesn't keep the user's from address
when I forward.  It there a clean way around this anywhere in pine?
Thanks in advance for your help.

Shane Wegner: [email protected]
Tel: (604) 930-0530
Sysadmin, Continuum Systems: http://www.cm.nu
Personal website: http://www.cm.nu/~shane
Celine Dion Fan site: http://www.celine.nu/
PGP key: http://www.cm.nu/~shane/pgp.txt
ICQ UIN: 15706546


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:06:26 -0500 (EST)
Reply-To: Yashy <[email protected]>
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From: Yasholomew Yashinski <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: moderation
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On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Shane Wegner wrote:

> I am attempting to run a moderated mailing list using pine and have a

> when I forward.  It there a clean way around this anywhere in pine?

Are you using Majordomo? if not, you should be, I run all my lists with
it, and it is quite configurable.


.Yashy
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GU/O/U d+ s:- a--@ C+++>$ U++++>$  P+ L+++>$ E--JOE W+++ N++ o-- K? w---
O M- V-- PS-- PE- Y++ PGP+++ t--- !5 X R tv-- b- DI-- D+
G e h--- r++ y++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------


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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: moderation
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I'll answer the question even though this thread is completely off-topic to
pine-info. Please, no replies on the list.

>From: Shane Wegner <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:08:29 -0800 (PST)

>I am attempting to run a moderated mailing list using pine and have a
>problem.  My mailing list software sends a perspective message to me and I
>approve it by adding an Approved: header to it.  I do this with the custom
>headers option.  However, the bounce (b) from the message reader command
>doesn't let me add a header so it doesn't keep the user's from address
>when I forward.  It there a clean way around this anywhere in pine?

I assume this is Majordomo? This is a Majordomo FAQ. Your Majordomo
distribution has a file called "list-owner-info" in the doc directory with
clear instructions for performing this work manually. If you have permission
from your system administrator to run perl scripts and to invoke the Mail
Transport Agent (often sendmail), you can run the "approve" script. This is
also part of the Majordomo distribution.

To do this manually, forward the message to the list posting address. Cut out
everything at the top of the body before the ORIGINAL message's headers. Add an
Approved: [password] line before the message's original headers. Be sure there
are no intervening blank lines. Be sure to cut out your .sig file. Be sure to
cut extraneous matter pine adds at the end of forwarded messages (-------end of
forwarded message-------).

As a variation, export the bounced message to a file. Delete everything above
the original message's headers, add the Approved line, read the file into the
body of a message to be sent to the list posting address.

The method you describe, adding an Approved header, is to approve your own
messages sent to the list. You need not do this in the headers, though. You can
put an "Approved: [password]" in the first line of the body, followed by a
blank line, then the message text.


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       id 0ztWML-0007dl-00
       for [email protected]; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:28:50 +0000
Message-Id: <Pine.OS2.3.95.981225122644.30C-100000@>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:28:51 +0000 (GMT)
Sender: [email protected]
Precedence: bulk
From: Barry Landy <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: more on pine and MS Outlook
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I remember a bug of just this nature in Pine 3.91. IIRC an embedded 00
character caused pine to think that the inbox ended there, so in effect
all subsequent messages appeared as part of the last one mentioned in
the index.

Workaround is to find the 00 and patch it to something else!

Fix is to upgrade.

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Marie.Jackson wrote:

:>
:>>We are using pine 3.91, our email server is sendmail 8.8.8 and our
:>>delivery agent is /bin/mail, as supplied with Solaris 2.5
:>
:>Following some prompting from Mike Brudenell at York (thanks Mike), here
:>is more information.  Pine is accessing the spooled mail direct  i.e. not
:>POP or IMAP.  We are using an old version of pine, on the grounds that
:>"if it ain't broke don't fix it".  However, if these symptoms mean it's
:>broke, then we'll move to a newer version to fix it!
:>
:>
:>Marie Jackson
:>Computer Support Services
:>Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College
:>..etc.
:>
:>
:>-----------------------------------------------------------------
:> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
:> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
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:>

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600
Head of Systems and Development    Direct line:        +44 1223 334713
University of Cambridge Computing Service
New Museums Site                   Email:[email protected]
Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG


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From: Chris Wood <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
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Today Pine decided to start core dumping when it tried to send an
attachment.  "Received abort signal" and then it core dumps (as shown in
the .pine-debug1 file).

We've been running this version of pine for a long time (many months).
The ONLY thing that has changed recently is that the infamous "mailbox
vulnerable" error came back.  I did a "chmod 1777 /var/mail" and the error
went away.  This has been the only change, but now no attachments.

I searched the archive but didn't notice any solutions to this.  Any
ideas?  (I'd upgrade to pine 4.05 but it has a bug on my platform.)


-=-=-=-=-=-
Chris Wood                         Kitco, Inc.
801-489-2097                       Wencor West, Inc.
[[email protected]]                 Durham Aircraft Services
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


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From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Selections that partially miss
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On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> <deleted>
> You have convinced me that matching trailing space is useful. But a more
> powerful searching method would be nice that would let us use metacharacters.

We're sort of stuck with the semantics of Search that exists in the IMAP
protocol. In IMAP search for text strings is always a simple search for a
substring match. No metacharacters.

> Steve, how about introducing a method of ignoring leading "Re: " and variants?

There is already a method but I guess it isn't what you want. You edit the
search string and remove the Re: and variants, then the search will ignore
them (since it is a substring match, not an exact match).

> How about putting ^X on the submenu under ";" or at least "text"? It would save
> quite a few keystrokes.

You mean a shortcut to get to the current subject with a subject search
command? Everybody probably has their favorite searching style and they'd
want theirs on the menu. (how about a shortcut for everything arriving
since the current msg, or for everything from the author of the current
msg, ...)

--
Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Networks and Distributed Computing, Univ. of Washington, Seattle




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Subject: Re: Selections that partially miss
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>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:48:12 -0800 (PST)
>From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>

>On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>You have convinced me that matching trailing space is useful. But a more
>>powerful searching method would be nice that would let us use metacharacters.

>We're sort of stuck with the semantics of Search that exists in the IMAP
>protocol. In IMAP search for text strings is always a simple search for a
>substring match. No metacharacters.

Ah, that's interesting. I guess that also explains why searching isn't
available for text strings in other messages in the same folder while paging
through a message, only from the index screen.

>>how about introducing a method of ignoring leading "Re: " and variants?

>There is already a method but I guess it isn't what you want. You edit the
>search string and remove the Re: and variants, then the search will ignore
>them (since it is a substring match, not an exact match).

Heh; that's what I do now. I was hoping for a better way.

>>How about putting ^X on the submenu under ";" or at least "text"? It would
>>save quite a few keystrokes.

>You mean a shortcut to get to the current subject with a subject search
>command? Everybody probably has their favorite searching style and they'd
>want theirs on the menu. (how about a shortcut for everything arriving
>since the current msg, or for everything from the author of the current
>msg, ...)

Now your talking! But since the keystrokes for Current From, Current To, and
Current Subject don't duplicate other keys, it would be nice to be able to use
them sooner.


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Hello. I'm new to the list. I've got a question about pine from the user
end that someone might be able to help me with:
Is it possible to edit the flags in the message index of the inbox folder?
That would consist of erasing or adding "A" (answered) flags at this
point, but how come that's the only flag avvailable? I'd like to be able
to mark certain incoming messages with a flag so I remember to answer them
later, or to ensure that they don't get erased, etc. Any ideas?
Thanks.

Lisa Stumph
[email protected]

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From: Lisa Stumph <[email protected]>
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Subject: never mind.
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Ok. I answered my own question. Thanks for listening though.

Lisa.


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From: Lisa Stumph <[email protected]>
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Subject: Ok. Here's one for you...
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How can I edit messages saved in my sent-mail folder without moving them
and without changing their status?

Lisa Stumph.
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From: "Ajaz M. Siraj" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: moderation
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On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Shane Wegner wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am attempting to run a moderated mailing list using pine and have a
> problem.  My mailing list software sends a perspective message to me and I
> approve it by adding an Approved: header to it.  I do this with the custom
> headers option.  However, the bounce (b) from the message reader command
> doesn't let me add a header so it doesn't keep the user's from address
> when I forward.  It there a clean way around this anywhere in pine?
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>


The best way to do this is to get hold of "approve" perl script from the
majordomo distribution site (assuming you are using majordomo). You should
then use the "pipe command" or "|" in pine to pipe the approved post to
this "approve" script. This script will automatically attach the required
Approved: password at the top of the file and send it back to the mailing
list for distribution.

You will require a .majordomo file in your home directory with the
following information:

 [email protected]  your-passwd  [email protected]

======================================================================
Ajaz Siraj
Seagate Technology
Longmont, CO, USA



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From: Chris Wood <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pine 4.02a attachments abort
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After thinking about this for awhile... I also upgraded our DG/UX
operating system last weekend.  Are there any sendmail or other related
MTA programs that pine works with that are known to conflict?

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Chris Wood wrote:

>
> Today Pine decided to start core dumping when it tried to send an
> attachment.  "Received abort signal" and then it core dumps (as shown in
> the .pine-debug1 file).
>
> We've been running this version of pine for a long time (many months).
> The ONLY thing that has changed recently is that the infamous "mailbox
> vulnerable" error came back.  I did a "chmod 1777 /var/mail" and the error
> went away.  This has been the only change, but now no attachments.
>
> I searched the archive but didn't notice any solutions to this.  Any
> ideas?  (I'd upgrade to pine 4.05 but it has a bug on my platform.)
>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> Chris Wood                         Kitco, Inc.
> 801-489-2097                       Wencor West, Inc.
> [[email protected]]                 Durham Aircraft Services
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>  For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
>  http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>


-=-=-=-=-=-
Chris Wood                         Kitco, Inc.
801-489-2097                       Wencor West, Inc.
[[email protected]]                 Durham Aircraft Services
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-