From [email protected]  Sat May  1 12:03:31 1993
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To: [email protected]
Subject: PC Pine Availability
From: [email protected] (Steve Traugott)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 01 May 93 13:32:46 EDT
Organization: ---TerraLuna------*   ...Evolution at Work

Hi All!

I've been lurking on the sidelines, waiting for a PC-Pine
announcement.  Did I miss it?  I see a lot of discussion of DOS
platforms here...

Steve
---                     .        .    `   *
Steve Traugott             `    .  *           +       [email protected]
...Evolution of Organizations       +    ` .   .      [email protected]
Unix/Internet Systems Engineer         .      [email protected] List Manager
Currently contracting in Summit, NJ  .




From [email protected]  Sat May  1 13:10:57 1993
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Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 12:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PC Pine Availability
To: Steve Traugott <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


On Sat, 1 May 1993, Steve Traugott wrote:

> I've been lurking on the sidelines, waiting for a PC-Pine
> announcement.  Did I miss it?  I see a lot of discussion of DOS
> platforms here...

Steve,
Gosh, I wish I could say "yes, you missed it"... :)
Unfortunately, we're running late.  Here's the current status:

There exists a test version of PC-Pine that is available by request.
Nearly 100 people have requested it.  The good news is that very few bugs
have been reported, and at least some folks are using it regularly.
The bad news is that this version lacks something that is essential at
many sites, including ours: the ability to access remote folders in
addition to the INBOX.  (This is not needed for those who wish to have
saved-msg folders on the local disk or workgroup fileserver, e.g. Novell.)

Fortunately, the remote folder code is finally coming together, and Mike
hopes to have a version for internal testing next week, with the goal of
a general "gamma test" release around May 15th.

Because it is very difficult to get user interfaces "right the first time",
we anticipate that there will be additional "iterative refinement" of
the new remote folder capabilities, as we gain experience with them.
In addition, there's still a whole bunch of other stuff we're trying to
get done in the next couple of months, for both Unix Pine and PC Pine.

I hope all or our patient supporters will find that the upcoming releases
have been worth the wait...

-teg


p.s. To take advantage of the remote folder facility, a new version
of IMAPd will be needed, and that will be released at the same time
as PC-Pine.




From [email protected]  Mon May  3 08:57:55 1993
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From: "Mark Thacker...CC1 LAN Manager"  <[email protected]>
Organization: UNT Computing Center
Date:         3 May 93 10:37:34 CST6CDT
Subject:      Returned mail: User unknown
Priority: normal
X-Mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R5).

Well, I hate to do this to the net, but here it goes:

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

Date:          Mon, 3 May 1993 10:26:15 -0500
From:          Mail Delivery Subsystem <[email protected]>
To:            [email protected]
Subject:       Returned mail: User unknown

  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
While talking to mx1.cac.washington.edu:
>>> RCPT To:<[email protected]>
<<< 550 <[email protected]>... User unknown
550 <[email protected]>... User unknown

  ----- Unsent message follows -----
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To: [email protected]
From: "Mark Thacker...CC1 LAN Manager"  <[email protected]>
Organization: UNT Computing Center
Date:         3 May 93 10:21:53 CST6CDT
Subject:      Subscribe
Priority: normal
X-Mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R5).

Please subscribe [email protected] to the Pine-info mailing list.

I must have been deleted some time ago...


Thanks

Mark Thacker
817-565-2568


======================================================================
Mark Thacker                Bitnet : MARK@UNTVAX
CC1 Novell LAN Manager      THENET : NTVAXA::MARK
Computing Center            Internet : [email protected]
University of North Texas         or : [email protected]
======================================================================

======================================================================
Mark Thacker                Bitnet : MARK@UNTVAX
CC1 Novell LAN Manager      THENET : NTVAXA::MARK
Computing Center            Internet : [email protected]
University of North Texas         or : [email protected]
======================================================================


From [email protected]  Mon May  3 12:46:37 1993
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Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 15:14:36 -0300 (EDT)
From: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>
Subject:
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

hi : i wonder if any of the pine gurus can comment on the following
problem we have with pine3.05.

many of our administrators use pine to communicate electronically with large
groups of people at our university. we have several people who have defined
groups that contain more than 100 addresses. i (as postmaster) have found
two instances in which pine seems unwilling to accept more than about 91
addresses. in particular it only expands part of the 91st addresss causing
sendmail to complain about unbalanced parenthesis.

any help would be appreciated and i can forward an instance of mail being
returned because of the above if it would be of any help.




From [email protected]  Mon May  3 14:01:52 1993
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Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 13:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: your mail
To: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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Pine should be able to handle 1000 addresses by default.  My suggestion
would be to duplicate the problem, then grab a copy of your .pine-debug1
file, .addressbook file and instructions to duplicate the problem to
[email protected] or myself...

*****************************************************************************
David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
100 Sprout Road
Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
*****************************************************************************


On Mon, 3 May 1993, bob ellsworth s wrote:

> hi : i wonder if any of the pine gurus can comment on the following
> problem we have with pine3.05.
>
> many of our administrators use pine to communicate electronically with large
> groups of people at our university. we have several people who have defined
> groups that contain more than 100 addresses. i (as postmaster) have found
> two instances in which pine seems unwilling to accept more than about 91
> addresses. in particular it only expands part of the 91st addresss causing
> sendmail to complain about unbalanced parenthesis.
>
> any help would be appreciated and i can forward an instance of mail being
> returned because of the above if it would be of any help.
>
>





From [email protected]  Mon May  3 15:16:15 1993
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Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 17:58:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: your mail
To: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Cc: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I've run into the same problem on our system.  It turned out to be
sendmail that was at fault.  I've replaced sendmail with smail3 and the
problem is now gone.
--
Ron Pool; Electronic Technology Group; B-15 Wing Hall; Ithaca, NY 14853
Internet: [email protected]

On Mon, 3 May 1993, David L. Miller wrote:
> Pine should be able to handle 1000 addresses by default.  My suggestion
> would be to duplicate the problem, then grab a copy of your .pine-debug1
> file, .addressbook file and instructions to duplicate the problem to
> [email protected] or myself...
>
> *****************************************************************************
> David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
> Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
> Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
> 100 Sprout Road
> Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
> *****************************************************************************
>
> On Mon, 3 May 1993, bob ellsworth s wrote:
>
> > hi : i wonder if any of the pine gurus can comment on the following
> > problem we have with pine3.05.
> >
> > many of our administrators use pine to communicate electronically with large
> > groups of people at our university. we have several people who have defined
> > groups that contain more than 100 addresses. i (as postmaster) have found
> > two instances in which pine seems unwilling to accept more than about 91
> > addresses. in particular it only expands part of the 91st addresss causing
> > sendmail to complain about unbalanced parenthesis.
> >
> > any help would be appreciated and i can forward an instance of mail being
> > returned because of the above if it would be of any help.




From [email protected]  Mon May  3 15:37:29 1993
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Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 15:18:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: your mail
To: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
Cc: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>,
       bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


On Mon, 3 May 1993, Ron Pool wrote:

> Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 17:58:32 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
> To: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
> Cc: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> Subject: Re: your mail
>
> I've run into the same problem on our system.  It turned out to be
> sendmail that was at fault.  I've replaced sendmail with smail3 and the
> problem is now gone.

When using sendmail, it is typically the final delivery program (often
/bin/mail) that escapes the From_ lines.  There is also a per-mailer flag in
sendmail that will cause it to escape the From_s before it passes the message
to the mailer, if you'd like.  That's the "E" flag.  But I think most people
rely on the actual deliverer to do the job.



From [email protected]  Mon May  3 15:52:07 1993
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Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 18:37:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: your mail
To: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Cc: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>,
       bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 3 May 1993, Steve Hubert wrote:
> On Mon, 3 May 1993, Ron Pool wrote:
> > Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 17:58:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
> > To: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
> > Cc: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: your mail
> >
> > I've run into the same problem on our system.  It turned out to be
> > sendmail that was at fault.  I've replaced sendmail with smail3 and the
> > problem is now gone.
>
> When using sendmail, it is typically the final delivery program (often
> /bin/mail) that escapes the From_ lines.  There is also a per-mailer flag in
> sendmail that will cause it to escape the From_s before it passes the message
> to the mailer, if you'd like.  That's the "E" flag.  But I think most people
> rely on the actual deliverer to do the job.

I'll take your word for it.  Smail3 comes with a replacement /bin/mail that
I installed along with the rest of the smail3 package.
--
Ron Pool; Electronic Technology Group; B-15 Wing Hall; Ithaca, NY 14853
Internet: [email protected]




From [email protected]  Mon May  3 16:13:08 1993
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Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 15:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: your mail (fwd)
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Hmm, I seem to have answered the wrong question.  My answer about From_
lines doesn't apply to the 1000 user mailing list question.  I think
somebody asked earlier about messages being split into two because
From_'s at the starts of lines weren't being escaped.  That's what my
response refers to.  Hope I didn't confuse too many people!


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 18:37:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
To: Steve Hubert <[email protected]>
Cc: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>,
    bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: your mail

On Mon, 3 May 1993, Steve Hubert wrote:
> On Mon, 3 May 1993, Ron Pool wrote:
> > Date: Mon, 3 May 1993 17:58:32 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Ron Pool <[email protected]>
> > To: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
> > Cc: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: your mail
> >
> > I've run into the same problem on our system.  It turned out to be
> > sendmail that was at fault.  I've replaced sendmail with smail3 and the
> > problem is now gone.
>
> When using sendmail, it is typically the final delivery program (often
> /bin/mail) that escapes the From_ lines.  There is also a per-mailer flag in
> sendmail that will cause it to escape the From_s before it passes the message
> to the mailer, if you'd like.  That's the "E" flag.  But I think most people
> rely on the actual deliverer to do the job.

I'll take your word for it.  Smail3 comes with a replacement /bin/mail that
I installed along with the rest of the smail3 package.
--
Ron Pool; Electronic Technology Group; B-15 Wing Hall; Ithaca, NY 14853
Internet: [email protected]








From [email protected]  Mon May  3 17:17:14 1993
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From: JM9023%[email protected]
Subject:      UNSUBSCRIBE
To: [email protected]

unsubscribe [email protected]


From [email protected]  Tue May  4 03:49:17 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Tue, 4 May 1993 11:27:40 +0100
From: [email protected] (Chris Wooff)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 11:27:38 +0100
In-Reply-To: Your message of May 3, 10:37am
References: <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (2.1.4 02apr93)
To: Mark Thacker <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown
Cc: [email protected]

Your mail almost certainly failed because you used the wrong username.
It should be pine-info-request. For some inscrutable reason you added
an "s". You should also note that this username is "automated" a la
LISTSERV and you simply mail a one line subscribe request.

Chris


From [email protected]  Wed May  5 03:53:24 1993
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         Wed, 5 May 93 11:40:34 +0100
Date: Wed, 5 May 93 11:40:32 +0000
From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Bouncing mail
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=US-ASCII

A naive question, I realise, from a relative newcomer to the Pine world....

Elm has a "bounce message" feature that works along these lines:
       A sends message to B
       B decides the message is more relevant to C
       B uses "bounce" command to remail message to C
       C receives mail as if it came directly from A
               (meaning they can reply straight to it)

This would be useful in situations such as our Advisory/Help Desk mail drop,
where someone redistributes messages to suitable staff to be dealt with.
Without "bounce" the answering member of staff has to firkle around saving the
message to a file, starting a new message, reading in the old message, etc.,
etc..

Is "bounce" deliberately omitted as part of Pine design philosohpy?  Or is it up
for negotiation with the development team? ;-)

                               Mike Brudenell
                               Computing Service, Univ. of York, UK




From [email protected]  Wed May  5 07:26:47 1993
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Subject: Bouncing mail (fwd)
From: Billy Barron <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 08:43:04 -0500
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>

In reply to Mike Brudenell's message:
>
>Elm has a "bounce message" feature that works along these lines:
>
>This would be useful in situations such as our Advisory/Help Desk mail drop,
>where someone redistributes messages to suitable staff to be dealt with.
>Without "bounce" the answering member of staff has to firkle around saving the
>message to a file, starting a new message, reading in the old message, etc.,
>etc..
>
That's funny, I just use "forward".

>Is "bounce" deliberately omitted as part of Pine design philosohpy?  Or is it up
>for negotiation with the development team? ;-)
>
I've considered "bounce" to be a disfeature.  People (including myself)
hit things like reply or group reply expecting them to go to the person
who did the bounce.  I forget about Elm bounce works, but in RiceMail,
the person who does the bouncing can add text at the top of the message
making it every more confusing....  I think "bounce" causes way more
confusion than good.  The *only* case where I think "bounce" is a good thing
is in the hands of a mailing list moderator....

I hope that "bounce" continues to be omitted in PINE.

--
Billy Barron,  Information Services Manager, Univ of Texas at Dallas
[email protected]


From [email protected]  Wed May  5 08:03:07 1993
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Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 07:28:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: Billy Barron <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

We originally omitted bounce from Pine for exactly the reasons Billy
points out: bounce (or "remail") is *dangerous* and has caused
considerable embarrassment over the years to unsuspecting recipients who
inadvertently reply to the original poster.  This can be especially
nasty if the original poster is sending via a LISTSERV where the Reply-To:
is set to the entire list.  (I've even been bitten, and I *know* better!)

However, as Mike points out, bounce has a legitimate use, especially for
mailing list and news group moderation.

Our plan is to provide Bounce, but *only* in Old-Growth (power-user) mode.

I hope this will be viewed as an acceptable compromise.

-teg


On Wed, 5 May 1993, Billy Barron wrote:

> In reply to Mike Brudenell's message:
> >
> >Elm has a "bounce message" feature that works along these lines:
> >
> >This would be useful in situations such as our Advisory/Help Desk mail drop,
> >where someone redistributes messages to suitable staff to be dealt with.
> >Without "bounce" the answering member of staff has to firkle around saving the
> >message to a file, starting a new message, reading in the old message, etc.,
> >etc..
> >
> That's funny, I just use "forward".
>
> >Is "bounce" deliberately omitted as part of Pine design philosohpy?  Or is it up
> >for negotiation with the development team? ;-)
> >
> I've considered "bounce" to be a disfeature.  People (including myself)
> hit things like reply or group reply expecting them to go to the person
> who did the bounce.  I forget about Elm bounce works, but in RiceMail,
> the person who does the bouncing can add text at the top of the message
> making it every more confusing....  I think "bounce" causes way more
> confusion than good.  The *only* case where I think "bounce" is a good thing
> is in the hands of a mailing list moderator....
>
> I hope that "bounce" continues to be omitted in PINE.
>
> --
> Billy Barron,  Information Services Manager, Univ of Texas at Dallas
> [email protected]
>



From [email protected]  Wed May  5 08:40:53 1993
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From: [email protected] (Jeff Hayward)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: [email protected] (Billy Barron)
Date: Wed, 5 May 93 10:27:16 CDT
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>; from "Billy Barron" at May 5, 93 8:43 am

Billy Barron writes:
 That's funny, I just use "forward".

 I've considered "bounce" to be a disfeature.  People (including myself)
 hit things like reply or group reply expecting them to go to the person
 who did the bounce.  I forget about Elm bounce works, but in RiceMail,
 the person who does the bouncing can add text at the top of the message
 making it every more confusing....  I think "bounce" causes way more
 confusion than good.  The *only* case where I think "bounce" is a good thing
 is in the hands of a mailing list moderator....

.. And postmasters, and people-managers, and...

It's fine if you want to keep pine 'idiot-proof'.  It's a very fine
tool for novices and intermediate skill level users.  Bounce is very
important in *this* users life though, and is why I use Elm.  Some
(even most) folks can be trusted with bounce, especially if it's a
disable-by-default feature.
--
Jeff Hayward



From [email protected]  Wed May  5 09:18:17 1993
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Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 12:03:53 -0400
From: "Steven D. Majewski" <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
Cc: [email protected]


I think an "old-growth" bounce option is an acceptable compromise.

I would add that another of those legitimate and necessary uses of
bounce is in using e-mail in a business/office environment where
there may often be secretaries and other intermediaries inserted
into the message stream. Those intermediaries would very much like
to be able to remove themselves from that stream - i.e. that don't
need to personally dispatch EVERY reply - and that requires that
forwarded ( or 'bounced' ) message keep most of their original headers.

One reason this may appear to be a 'misfeature' is the lack of
standard terminology: "forward", "bounce", "remail" , etc.
( AND lack of presentation/application level standards. )

This also, again, raises the problem of the e-mail user who, while not
technically proficient with computers, often needs to do something
more complicated with email than the typical user. ( The previous
example I brought up was setting up Sender/From/Reply-To headers
correctly for secretary sent email - so the boss is the From: ,
the secretary is the Sender:, and both get replies. ) Pine is a
GREAT naieve user mail program, but it tends to get in the way when
one has to do a bit more. Perhaps when the 'old-growth' mode gets
filled out with a few more features ... ( or perhaps what that sort
of job really requires is a "programmable" mailer, where local
policies and options can be set up easily. )


-Steve Majewski             (804-982-0831)              <[email protected]>
-Univ. of Virginia Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics

------
On May 5,  7:28, Terry Gray wrote:
>
> We originally omitted bounce from Pine for exactly the reasons Billy
> points out: bounce (or "remail") is *dangerous* and has caused
> considerable embarrassment over the years to unsuspecting recipients who
> inadvertently reply to the original poster.  This can be especially
> nasty if the original poster is sending via a LISTSERV where the Reply-To:
> is set to the entire list.  (I've even been bitten, and I *know* better!)
>
> However, as Mike points out, bounce has a legitimate use, especially for
> mailing list and news group moderation.
>
> Our plan is to provide Bounce, but *only* in Old-Growth (power-user) mode.
>
> I hope this will be viewed as an acceptable compromise.
>
> -teg
>


From [email protected]  Wed May  5 09:47:20 1993
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Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 16:42:46 +0100 (BST)
From: "A. Hilborne" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: Jeff Hayward <[email protected]>
Cc: Billy Barron <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 5 May 1993, Jeff Hayward wrote:

> It's fine if you want to keep pine 'idiot-proof'.  It's a very fine
> tool for novices and intermediate skill level users.  Bounce is very
> important in *this* users life though, and is why I use Elm.  Some
> (even most) folks can be trusted with bounce, especially if it's a
> disable-by-default feature.

Many people, including myself, would like a few additional features in
Pine.  Usually the small "additional set" is slightly different from
person to person.

If all these changes are put in, even into "old-growth" mode, then one of
the fundamental design points of Pine (a simple mailer, with a simple
on-line manual) will have been lost.  What do the keepers of the "one true
Pine" have to say?

--
Andrew M. Hilborne                        [email protected]
Computing Service                    Tel: +44 91 222 8226 (direct)
University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.    +44 91 222 8039 (Comp Service office)





From [email protected]  Wed May  5 10:32:51 1993
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Content-Type: text/plain
Date:         Wed, 05 May 93 11:56:25 CDT
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 5 May 1993 08:43:04 -0500 from
<[email protected]>

>                                                ...   but in RiceMail,
>the person who does the bouncing can add text at the top of the message
>making it every more confusing   ...

       Huh?   It's just header editing.   I miss it in Pine.   :-(

       And about LISTSERV:  the  Reply-To  can be set to the list
or the sender,  ignoring or respecting any previous  Reply-To.
So you may find that if you simply insert a  "Reply-To: me@myhost"
in the header you won't embarrass your bouncee.

       Smart and flexible  Reply-To  handling is just one of the
features of a  list server  that I consider essential.   I wish we
could get MajorDomo, MAILSERV, and all the various LISTSERV variants
to converge.   There is an effort along this line.

Thanks to the new IBM, most ESA systems today
can be suspected of being stable. -- Barton Robinson

Stop BASIC before it stops you.   -- Dijkstra
Stop UNIX before it stops you.   -- Troth

Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems


From [email protected]  Wed May  5 10:42:30 1993
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Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: "A. Hilborne" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


On Wed, 5 May 1993, A. Hilborne wrote:

> If all these changes are put in, even into "old-growth" mode, then one of
> the fundamental design points of Pine (a simple mailer, with a simple
> on-line manual) will have been lost.  What do the keepers of the "one true
> Pine" have to say?

OK, I'll bite. :)

The *theory*, *hope*, and *intent* behind "old-growth" mode was that we
could retain the "simple mailer" virtues of Pine for most users, but also
accommodate creaping featurism in a way that didn't undermine the
original design goal.

Whether the old-growth approach will actually achieve that goal remains
to be seen, but there are lots of things we'd like to add to meet local
needs, and it's clear that there is world-wide interest in many of these
enhancements.

One of the things we have just been discussing amongst ourselves is
related: We have some options that are configurable by separate variables
in .pinerc. (There will be more! :) And we have some that are "lumped"
together under the feature-level "old-growth".  (More of those coming,
too.) The issue is whether to lean more to the individual options or more
to the lumped options.

Example: many have asked for a way to turn off confirmations.  This has
led to the idea of a "reckless" (or perhaps "clear-cut"?) mode beyond
"old-growth" where there would be no confirmations, even for irreversable
actions.  Alternatively, it has been suggested that even novices should
have the option of being reckless.  I actually don't agree with the latter
view, having seen what happens to support costs when you make razor blades
easily available to the infirm and inexperienced, but the general issue is
quite valid: to what extent should "old-growth" features be individually
enabled vs. lumped.

Other examples of power-user features include: bounce, piping to a Unix
cmd, aggregate operations, more complex searching, being able to enter a
msg number without the "J", etc...

The global .pinerc provides a way to establish a baseline config for a
site, but we don't want to get to the point where there is a big business
opportunity for those wishing to provide personal pine configuration
support.  :)

Comments welcome, as always.

-teg



From [email protected]  Thu May  6 02:16:54 1993
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Date: Thu, 6 May 1993 09:13:00 +0100 (BST)
From: "A. Hilborne" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9305060958.A6659-a100000@scawdell>
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On Wed, 5 May 1993, Terry Gray wrote:

> OK, I'll bite. :)
> ..
> ..
>
> Other examples of power-user features include: bounce, piping to a Unix cmd
                                                        ********************

There will never be agreement about all these possible features.  I
believe myself that a Unix mailer that doesn't allow everyone to pipe to a
command is seriously disenfranchising the user because s/he can't have
easy access to the powerfull Unix tools...

--
Andrew M. Hilborne                        [email protected]
Computing Service                    Tel: +44 91 222 8226 (direct)
University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.    +44 91 222 8039 (Comp Service office)





From [email protected]  Thu May  6 16:25:59 1993
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Date: Thu, 6 May 1993 17:40:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "James D. Gillmore" <[email protected]>
Subject: Summer Break Help
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

What can we do when our students leave for holiday this summer.  Is there
some way to return mail to the sender when the student is gone?  We will
be leaving their accounts on the system and I am afraid that the disk will
fill up with unread mail.  Is there a way after /spool/mail/<user> get so
big that we can return to sender as not accepting mail?

______________________________________________________________________________
Jim Gillmore                    E-mail          [email protected]
Manager Network Services                                    VOICE 215.683.4199
Kutztown University of PA                                     FAX 215.683.4634
LMS Annex Room 105                                           HOME 717.865.5820
                                             Holidays & Weekends 717.567.3931
       If you don't ask you can't find out!






From [email protected]  Thu May  6 16:46:55 1993
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Date:   Thu, 6 May 1993 19:28:39 -0400
From: Andy Poling <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Summer Break Help
To: "James D. Gillmore" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 6 May 1993, James D. Gillmore wrote:
> What can we do when our students leave for holiday this summer.  Is there
> some way to return mail to the sender when the student is gone?  We will
> be leaving their accounts on the system and I am afraid that the disk will
> fill up with unread mail.  Is there a way after /spool/mail/<user> get so
> big that we can return to sender as not accepting mail?

This isn't really pine-related, but...

Yes - disk quotas.

-Andy

Andy Poling                              Internet: [email protected]
UNIX Systems Programmer                  Bitnet: ANDY@JHUNIX
Homewood Academic Computing              Voice: (410)516-8096
Johns Hopkins University                 UUCP: uunet!mimsy!aplcen!jhunix!andy



From [email protected]  Fri May  7 01:44:16 1993
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Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 09:23:35 +0100 (BST)
From: Mike Roch <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Mike Roch <[email protected]>
Subject: pine-debug files
To: [email protected]
Cc: Andrew Cox <[email protected]>
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I approve whole-heartedly with Pine's creating user-debugging files by
default, but could the -d0 option be made to mean 0, ie no debug file?

Some space-conscious users have grumbled about the cumulative effect of
storing 4 x 4k files x thousands of users. (Of course all those 16k's are
a drop in the ocean, but if you've just hit your quota or someone else has
just filled your disk partition it's one more aggravation!)

Mike

==============================================================================
Mike Roch, Computer Services Centre,                          Tel: 0734 318430
The University, Whiteknights, Reading, RG6 2AX.               Fax: 0734 753094






From [email protected]  Fri May  7 01:55:27 1993
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Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 09:09:05 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Ward <[email protected]>
Subject: DOS2UNIX
To: [email protected]
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Thanks for pine. I'm using pine from PCs - with PCNFS, a batch file and a
keyboard stuffer I can be on our Unix box and into pine and use it almost
as if it were a DOS program (even nicer if I could rsh it). I also use
ReadMail, a DOS off-line mail reader, like many programs on DOS it doesn't
care whether lines end in CR, LF or both. But unfortunately it can't
append selected messages in Unix format to a file - so when I save
messages to mail folders with ReadMail they have CRLF. Pine then
identifies the mail folder as of unknown format and I have to run the
folder through a DOS2UNIX conversion. Similarly, if I ^R a DOS text file
into a message I get lots of ^Ms to delete out.

Any chance of pine accepting CRLF as a valid end of line. (Or is the
option hidden away somewhere obvious that I haven't seen). Maybe it's a
kludge but it should be fairly simple (? :-)) and you must be tackling it
in PC pine.

I know you are working on a PC Pine, but with a networked PC I think I
might still prefer to run pine on the unix box.

Thanks                          Alan Ward

[email protected]       Department of Microbiology
                                Medical School
                                University of Newcastle upon Tyne NE2 4HH




From [email protected]  Fri May  7 06:50:58 1993
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Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 09:11:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Greg Dobrich <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Greg Dobrich <[email protected]>
Subject: two pine 3.07 questions
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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G'day

1. Once pine 3.07 is compiled with debugging turned on how does one turn it
off? I commented out the DEBUG= line in makfile.sun, deleted the existing
executable, and rebuilt but debugging is still on.

2. On a Sun Sparcstation (SunOS 4.1.2), which is the main mail machine for
our domain, we have no /usr/local/lib/pine.conf file and I have optioned
the line governing use of domain name only in my .pinerc file no, ie use
the host and the domain name in the from line (this was done just as a
test -- I really do want it to be from user@domain-name). As a result I
expected to see [email protected] in the from field but didnt. Why
is this? This sun is also the primary name server for our domain and is
configured with an MX record for the domain, an A record for the domain
listing this hosts ip address along with the A record for the host itself.

Thanks,

Greg

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
+     Greg Dobrich                          National Agricultural Library     +
+     [email protected]                  Information Systems Division      +
+     301/504-6813                          Beltsville, MD 20705              +
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+





From [email protected]  Fri May  7 07:26:34 1993
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Date: Fri, 7 May 1993 07:12:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pine-debug files
To: Mike Roch <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], Andrew Cox <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.05.9305070943.B9634-a100000@suma1>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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On Fri, 7 May 1993, Mike Roch wrote:

> I approve whole-heartedly with Pine's creating user-debugging files by
> default, but could the -d0 option be made to mean 0, ie no debug file?

Yes, definitely.  This will be done.

-teg



From [email protected]  Fri May  7 09:47:08 1993
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From: Kelly Cunningham (Random Deviate) <[email protected]>
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Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1.RR)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: pine-debug files

>On Fri, 7 May 1993, Mike Roch wrote:
>
>> I approve whole-heartedly with Pine's creating
user-debugging files by
>> default, but could the -d0 option be made to
mean 0, ie no debug file?
>
>Yes, definitely.  This will be done.
>

>-teg
>
>
I use
alias mail 'pine;rm .pine-debug*'

-- kc


From [email protected]  Mon May 10 08:57:12 1993
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 10:12:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Jeff A. Earickson" <[email protected]>
Subject: mail housecleaning - help!
To: pine-info <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


Dear Pine-Central,

 This is not really a pine question as such, but comes about because of
Pine's marvelous ability to neatly organize one's incoming mail.  I save
incoming mail as "from.name", where "name" is the person or organization
sending me mail.  I now have 3 Meg of old mail in 100+ files.

  --> I need to clean out old mail.  How best to do it? <---

I would like to go thru every mail file and delete all messages older than
say 6 months.  Is there some way to do this from within pine?  Some other
program out there that does this?  A Unix utility that I don't know about?
Help!

/*------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
/* Jeff A. Earickson, Ph.D.          Consultant, Boeing Computer Services */
/* Alabama Supercomputer Network              EMAIL: [email protected] */
/* PO Box 870346, University of Alabama       VOICE: (205) 348-3969       */
/* Tuscaloosa, AL   35487-0346                  FAX: (205) 348-3993       */
/*     Alabama 13-0-0, 1992 National Football Champions. Roll Tide!       */
/*------------------------------------------------------------------------*/




From [email protected]  Mon May 10 09:22:32 1993
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 09:01:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
To: "Jeff A. Earickson" <[email protected]>
Cc: pine-info <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Jeff,
In a recent pine-info discussion Mike Kuniavsky had the following
suggestion:

"There's a piece of software called mailclean (in comp.sources.misc volume
22, available at all of the usual places or check archie) which removes
"old" (definable) mail after a set period of time from mailboxes, leaving
all of the other mail."

Hope this helps.

-teg


On Mon, 10 May 1993, Jeff A. Earickson wrote:

>
> Dear Pine-Central,
>
>   This is not really a pine question as such, but comes about because of
> Pine's marvelous ability to neatly organize one's incoming mail.  I save
> incoming mail as "from.name", where "name" is the person or organization
> sending me mail.  I now have 3 Meg of old mail in 100+ files.
>
>    --> I need to clean out old mail.  How best to do it? <---
>
> I would like to go thru every mail file and delete all messages older than
> say 6 months.  Is there some way to do this from within pine?  Some other
> program out there that does this?  A Unix utility that I don't know about?
> Help!
>
> /*------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
> /* Jeff A. Earickson, Ph.D.          Consultant, Boeing Computer Services */
> /* Alabama Supercomputer Network              EMAIL: [email protected] */
> /* PO Box 870346, University of Alabama       VOICE: (205) 348-3969       */
> /* Tuscaloosa, AL   35487-0346                  FAX: (205) 348-3993       */
> /*     Alabama 13-0-0, 1992 National Football Champions. Roll Tide!       */
> /*------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
>
>
>



From [email protected]  Mon May 10 10:01:27 1993
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 11:35:32 -0600 (GMT-0600)
From: "Kelly Cunningham (Random Deviate)" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
To: pine-info <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9305101118.C10952-9100000@lipschitz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 10 May 1993, Jeff A. Earickson wrote:

>
> Dear Pine-Central,
>
> sending me mail.  I now have 3 Meg of old mail in 100+ files.
>

A related suggestion: How about a menu item to compress (.Z) the selected mail
folder?

Another related suggestion: How about a .pinerc option to keep each mail
folder compressed when not in use?

-- kc






From [email protected]  Mon May 10 11:35:15 1993
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 14:18:21 -0400
From: "Steven D. Majewski" <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: "Jeff A. Earickson" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
Cc: [email protected]

On May 10, 10:12, "Jeff A. Earickson" wrote:
>
>    --> I need to clean out old mail.  How best to do it? <---
>
> I would like to go thru every mail file and delete all messages older than
> say 6 months.  Is there some way to do this from within pine?  Some other
> program out there that does this?  A Unix utility that I don't know about?
> Help!
>
> -- End of excerpt from "Jeff A. Earickson" <[email protected]>

For interactive housecleaning:
Mush ( Mail Users SHell ) has more powerful selection & sorting &
marking capabilities - and commands can be 'piped' together, as
in unix shells ( except that, from one mush command to another,
what is passed is a message LIST, not the messages, but when you
pipe a message list to a unix command, it is the messages that
get sent. )
 'pipe -i -s unsubscribe | delete '
for example, will delete all the messages with "unsubscribe" in the
subject line ( -i is (following 'grep') case insensitivity ).

For Batch housecleaning I've used both 'filter' - a program that comes
with the mush package, and 'procmail/formail'. Both are really designed
to intercept incomming mail ( via an entry in your .forward file ) and
route it to a particluar folder|user|program, but both can be run in
"batch" mode. The usual .forward method simply runs the program with
a mail message as the stdin. That's where the 'formail' program
( part of 'procmail' package ) comes in handy : formail can split up
a mailbox file, and pipe each message to a unix command:

 'formail <mbx -s procmail ./.procmailrc'

will break up mailbox file "mbx" into separate messages and pipe each
one to the command 'procmail ./.procmailrc' , where ".procmailrc" is
a file of procmail rules.


[ Both procmail and filter need a "rule" file to pick and redirect
 messages.  ]


-Steve Majewski             (804-982-0831)              <[email protected]>
-Univ. of Virginia Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics



From [email protected]  Mon May 10 15:16:58 1993
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 16:57:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=Latin-1

       In a former life   ;-)
I was able to log all outbound and (by default)
inbound messages into a notebook called  yyyymon,
where yyyy is the year and mon is the three-letter month.
So today's notebook is  "1993may".

       I've found this month-by-month logging
very convenient.   I can now move all of 1992xxx
from my mailbox sub-directory to, say, tape or floppy
to put into cold storage.   (sure ... compresss it too)
But I haven't yet figured out how,  with Pine,
to automate the rotation of notebook names.

--
Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 00:34:11 1993
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       id AA10963; Tue, 11 May 1993 02:24:51 -0500
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 02:20:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <[email protected]>
Subject: Multiple .signatures (suggestion)
To: Pine Info <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


This is a suggestion for pine that I just had.  It might be even
relatively simple to implement.

In the address menu, I'd like to be able to associate a specific,
alternate signature with an alias.

Reason:  I am the administrator of a few mailing lists and other project
and I use an alias to mail to them because I'm too lazy to typein the
whole name (which is the purpose, of course).  unfortunately, if I want to
have some kind of a different .signature (for example, a reminder of FTP
information), I have to ^k out the normal .sig, and then ^r in the
replacement.

If I could withint the address menu designate a seperate .signature, it
would save that hassle.  If no .sig is designated, it would simply use the
default.

Does that make any sense?  (it is 2:30 am).


[> Robert Hayden                   ____   <]  Black Holes result from God
[>                                 \  /__ <]  dividing the universe by zero.
[> [email protected]  \/  / <]
[> [email protected]            \/  <]  # include std_disclaimer.h
--
(SMURF CODE 1.04):  S6 b g+ l- y- z- n+ o+ x- a+/-- u+ v-- j++
(GEEK CODE 0.3):    GSS d- p--/-p+ c++ l++ m+/* s-/++ g+ w++ t++ r++ x+




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 07:26:34 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 09:58:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Schlitt <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
To: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

It would be nice if mail to the Pine list were in a form that it could be
read by Pine.  Latin-1??????

/dan

Dan Schlitt                           School of Engineering Computer Systems
[email protected]        City College of New York
(212)650-6760                         New York, NY 10031




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 11:21:59 1993
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       id AA12708; Tue, 11 May 93 13:56:57 -0400
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 13:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Virtual Dave Lankes <[email protected]>
Subject: PINE Binaries for SCO UNIX 3.2.4
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I was wondering if just the binaries are available? I have limited
compiling options.

........................................
: R.David Lankes (a.k.a."Virtual Dave") :
: Technical Consultant AskERIC Project  :
:   Coordinator Oliver/AEGIS Project    :
:         Syracuse University           :
:     School of Information Studies     :
:       [email protected]         :
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 13:11:06 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 12:52:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason R. Thorpe" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: PINE Binaries for SCO UNIX 3.2.4
To: Virtual Dave Lankes <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 11 May 1993, Virtual Dave Lankes wrote:

> I was wondering if just the binaries are available? I have limited
> compiling options.

Try ftp.cac.washington.edu.  There are several binaries there (including
NeXT and Sun), but I'm not sure about one for SCO.  They should be in the
/pine directory, with the source code.

Later...(I hope my memory serves me right! :-) )

/*****************************************************************************
    Jason R. Thorpe - Weatherford Hall 434 - Corvallis, OR - 97331-1701
       Bellnet (503) 737-9533     Internet [email protected]
*****************************************************************************/




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 14:14:23 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 15:52:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject: function keys ... YES!
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=Latin-1

       Well I'm truly tickled.   Thanks to the Pine developers
for supporting  "the escape sequences for a number of conventions".
This is a good thing to do.   Can/do you extend these?   I notice
that you  "[do] not use termcap to discover them",  and I agree
with this,  but would suggest augmenting the built-ins with the
definitions in termcap,  when possible.

       Can I remap these?   The doc doesn't say so.   I'm very
happy that I don't have to  control-this  and  control-that  always,
but sometimes I'm on a wierd keyboard and have to fall-back to
non-function-key mode.   I'd rather STAY in function-key mode.
One solution is to have two-stroke alternatives to the function keys:

               <ESC>1          F1
               <ESC>2          F2
               <ESC>3          F3
               <ESC>4          F4
               <ESC>5          F5
               <ESC>6          F6
               <ESC>7          F7
               <ESC>8          F8
               <ESC>9          F9
               <ESC>0          F10
               <ESC>-          F11
               <ESC>=          F12

       I don't especially *like* the above list,  but it's nice
to have for those times when I'm on a strange terminal (or emulator)
or somehow have TERM= temporarily messed-up.

--
Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 15:27:48 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 15:15:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Davis <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Jim Davis <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: function keys ... YES!
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

This is odd.  Pine (3.05) didn't want to show me this message, printing

[ Part 1 Unknown text "Latin-1" 33 lines ]
[ Can not display ... ]

but if I toggle 'full headers' on I see the message!  Without any
character munging or other oddities, as far as I can tell.

Now this doesn't seem consistent.  Either Pine can't cope with this
message, or it really can and I'd rather it just showed it to me without
this 'Can not display' business.  (Maybe with a grumble about 'Latin-1',
if it must.) In either case I don't see why toggling the headers command
should make a difference.

Is this handled differently in 3.07?
--
Jim Davis               | "Neddie allow me to humour him with this mallet."
[email protected]   |   -- Bloodnok




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 16:11:26 1993
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       id AA23594; Tue, 11 May 1993 17:02:30 -0600
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 17:00:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Brett Spengler <[email protected]>
Subject: Ports
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


I am new to the list.  Does anyone know of a port to 386bsd or Netbsd,
public domain Unix?  Thank you.

****************************************************************************
* Brett Spengler                 Internet: [email protected] *
* Director of Computer Services     or     [email protected]       *
* Central Wyoming College        Phone: 307-856-9291, ext. 196             *
*                                Snail: 2660 Peck Ave, Riverton, WY  82501 *
****************************************************************************



From [email protected]  Tue May 11 16:41:06 1993
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       id AA23888; Tue, 11 May 93 16:27:11 -0700
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 16:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
To: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


Would it be possible for you to use a standard charset name in the future?
It is annoying to have to convert every message you send before I can read
it.  I know you have asked for Latin-1, but that is not defined in the
MIME standard yet.  What you should be using is US-ASCII or ISO-8859-x
(x=1-9).  Until the specification for Latin-1 is published in an RFC and
registered with IANA it should not be used in Internet mail (paraphrased
from RFC1341, pg20).

As for the answer to your question, there were some utilities mentioned on
this list a couple days ago that should do the job for you...

*****************************************************************************
David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
100 Sprout Road
Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
*****************************************************************************


On Mon, 10 May 1993, Rick Troth wrote:

>       In a former life   ;-)
> I was able to log all outbound and (by default)
> inbound messages into a notebook called  yyyymon,
> where yyyy is the year and mon is the three-letter month.
> So today's notebook is  "1993may".
>
>       I've found this month-by-month logging
> very convenient.   I can now move all of 1992xxx
> from my mailbox sub-directory to, say, tape or floppy
> to put into cold storage.   (sure ... compresss it too)
> But I haven't yet figured out how,  with Pine,
> to automate the rotation of notebook names.
>
> --
> Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems
>
>





From [email protected]  Tue May 11 16:48:17 1993
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       id AA23944; Tue, 11 May 93 16:36:33 -0700
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: function keys ... YES!
To: Jim Davis <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


I can't say for sure, but I suspect that we are seeing different
assumptions in the two modes.  If you notice, the original message used an
invalid charset=Latin-1 in the Content-type header.  In normal mode, pine
assumes that the user would rather not see munged up text from some
unsupported charset (Kanji, vietnamese, Klingon, etc), whereas in 'full
headers' mode the user usually wants to see as much info as possible.
Even though the Latin-1 used *could* have been displayed, I think it is
safer to assume the worst (especially with novice users).  The appropriate
charset for the original message would have been US-ASCII or ISO-8859-1.

*****************************************************************************
David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
100 Sprout Road
Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
*****************************************************************************


On Tue, 11 May 1993, Jim Davis wrote:

> This is odd.  Pine (3.05) didn't want to show me this message, printing
>
> [ Part 1 Unknown text "Latin-1" 33 lines ]
> [ Can not display ... ]
>
> but if I toggle 'full headers' on I see the message!  Without any
> character munging or other oddities, as far as I can tell.
>
> Now this doesn't seem consistent.  Either Pine can't cope with this
> message, or it really can and I'd rather it just showed it to me without
> this 'Can not display' business.  (Maybe with a grumble about 'Latin-1',
> if it must.) In either case I don't see why toggling the headers command
> should make a difference.
>
> Is this handled differently in 3.07?
> --
> Jim Davis               | "Neddie allow me to humour him with this mallet."
> [email protected]   |   -- Bloodnok
>
>





From [email protected]  Tue May 11 16:55:46 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 18:44:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Matt Simmons <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ports
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 11 May 1993, Brett Spengler wrote:
> I am new to the list.  Does anyone know of a port to 386bsd or Netbsd,
> public domain Unix?  Thank you.
While we're at it, does anybody have the svr4 patches for 3.07?  Are there
any plans to make svr4 one of the standard platforms for pine?


[email protected]  Illinois has two seasons:  Winter and Construction
___________   _______________________________________^___
___   ___ |||  ___   ___   ___    ___ ___  |   __  ,----\    High Gamma
|   | |   |||| |   | |   | |   |  |   |   | |  |  | |_____\   Lambda
|___| |___|||| |___| |___| |___|  | O | O | |  |  |        \   Chi Alpha
          |||                    |___|___| |  |__|         )   Colony #099
___________|||______________________________|______________/    Bradley Univ
          ||| WDW Monorail Driver Wannabe            /-------- Peoria IL
-----------'''---------------------------------------'    Yours in ZAX




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 17:20:51 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 19:08:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject: grovel grovel
To: Pine Info <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi,

       Please accept my apology for generating such annoying mail.
I had no idea that *anyone* was having that trouble until today.

       Thanks to those who pointed out the problem.

       (and let this be a test to see if I've got it right)

--
Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 18:51:32 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 18:35:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason R. Thorpe" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: function keys ... YES!
To: Jim Davis <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 11 May 1993, Jim Davis wrote:

> This is odd.  Pine (3.05) didn't want to show me this message, printing
>
> [ Part 1 Unknown text "Latin-1" 33 lines ]
> [ Can not display ... ]
>
> but if I toggle 'full headers' on I see the message!  Without any
> character munging or other oddities, as far as I can tell.

I have the same problem.

> Is this handled differently in 3.07?

Nope.  I'm using 3.07.

I believe this has been discussed before here, and I believe that it
doesn't work because Latin-1 is not part of the MIME standard...RIGHT?  (I
think...something like that...)

Later...

/*****************************************************************************
    Jason R. Thorpe - Weatherford Hall 434 - Corvallis, OR - 97331-1701
       Bellnet (503) 737-9533     Internet [email protected]
*****************************************************************************/




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 18:58:41 1993
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Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 18:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason R. Thorpe" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ports
To: Brett Spengler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 11 May 1993, Brett Spengler wrote:

> I am new to the list.  Does anyone know of a port to 386bsd or Netbsd,
> public domain Unix?  Thank you.

Brett...

I have compiled Pine 3.05 and 3.07 on both 386BSD and NetBSD machines.
The NetBSD compiled without a hitch using the BSD build platform.  It took
just a little hacking of the makefile for 386BSD...I had to change a
compiler flag...I don't remember which one.  Anyway, use the BSD platform,
and you'll be fine...I used it without any problems until my drive crashed.

Later...

/*****************************************************************************
    Jason R. Thorpe - Weatherford Hall 434 - Corvallis, OR - 97331-1701
       Bellnet (503) 737-9533     Internet [email protected]
*****************************************************************************/




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 22:13:47 1993
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Sender: [email protected]
Received: from pail.rain.com by shivafs.cac.washington.edu
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       (1.37.109.4/4.0 Server UUCP) id AA26433; Tue, 11 May 93 18:21:51 -0700
From: David Bradford <pail!cascorp!dbradfor>
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 18:17:56 +0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "David L. Bradford" <cascorp!dbradfor>
Subject: QUIT enhancement request
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII


I'm using pine 3.05. It'd be nice to be able to:

   q quit from the folder screen
   i index (on highlighted folder) from the folder screen
   not have pine say [Unknown command: "f"] from folder screen (just
        ignore the "f" there)
   not have pine say [Unknown command: "m"] from the main menu
        (again, ignore it)

- Dave
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
:                                                          :            :
: David L. Bradford   UUCP: [email protected] :   __  |    :
: CAD Tech Support  CASCADE CORPORATION, Portland, OR, USA :  |__\_|    :
: (503) 669-6285   Manufacturers of Lift Truck Attachments :   @--@|__  :
:                                                          :            :
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''




From [email protected]  Tue May 11 22:05:49 1993
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From: David Bradford <pail!cascorp!dbradfor>
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 11:00:42 +0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "David L. Bradford" <cascorp!dbradfor>
Subject: Re: mail housecleaning - help!
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII


I get the below message from pine for Rick Troth's mail:

>>  [Part 1, Unknown text "Latin-1"  18 lines]
>>  [Can not display this part. Use the "A" command to save in a file]

But if I do a forward or a reply (include message), it puts the text in
there! It says it can't display it, but yet it includes it. What gives?

- Dave
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
:                                                          :            :
: David L. Bradford   UUCP: [email protected] :   __  |    :
: CAD Tech Support  CASCADE CORPORATION, Portland, OR, USA :  |__\_|    :
: (503) 669-6285   Manufacturers of Lift Truck Attachments :   @--@|__  :
:                                                          :            :
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''






From [email protected]  Tue May 11 22:52:22 1993
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       (5.65/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id AA25488; Tue, 11 May 93 22:44:47 -0700
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: "Latin-1" mail ...
To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 13:44:42 -0800 (SST)
From: Ng Pheng Siong <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Length: 254

Just for info, Elm 2.4.21 hooked with MetaMail 2.4 had no problem
with Rick Troth's mail.

BTW, is there an ftp'able SVR4 port of Pine?

- PS
--
Ng Pheng Siong * [email protected] * [email protected]
Computer Centre, Ngee Ann Polytechnic, Singapore


From [email protected]  Wed May 12 00:59:16 1993
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 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for <[email protected]>); Wed, 12 May 1993 10:40:44 +0300
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 10:42:57 +0200
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Seppo Kallio)
Subject: pine (pico) enhancement request
X-Charset: ISO_8859-1
X-Char-Esc: 29


1. The vt100 and vt200 terminals have select, insert, remove  keys. They
  are easy to use. pine (pico) should work with them. The C-k is  C-u
  not enough

2. There could be some Do-key and some extra commands with english words
  Compare to MAX/VMS eve (tpu) editor. It has some direct keys
  to do mos editing - but there is alo the do + english word command
  It is easy for people to learn. I do not mean the Do key on VT200.
  It could be any key in princible.

3. In Address book the commands are a little complicated. There are

? Help       M Main Menu  T AddToList   - Prev Pg     A Add         D Delete
            S CreateList L Print   SPACE Next Pg     E Edit        W Where is

Why is there two types of lists? I see only one type actually:

nickname,comment,list of user address(es)

If there is more than one name in the "list" it is a list.

Maybe there is some programming (mail system) technical reason, but why
irritate users with it?

After this you need few simple commands:

1. create new nicname
2. add more addresses to the nicname (the line cursor is pointing)
3. edit (the field cursor is pointing, address, nicname, name)
4. print address book
5. delete (the field cursor is pointing, address,nicname,...)

I think in elm there is only one type of address book entry. Why have you
added one more?
--
+----- Seppo Kallio --------+---- [email protected] ------- Eudora mailer ----+
!    Computing Centre       !   Fax +358-41-603611 Phone +358-41-603606   !
!  University of Jyvaskyla  !            Telex 28218 JYU FI               !
+------- Finland -----------+- [email protected] Mac-k{ytt{jien postiosoite +



From [email protected]  Wed May 12 06:11:56 1993
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Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 08:56:06 -0300 (EDT)
From: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>
Reply-To: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>
Subject: quoted-printable mime encoding
To: [email protected]
Cc: nora znotinas F <[email protected]>,
       Arleen Greenwood s <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

hi : does pine have problems with the "quoted-printable" form of mime
encoding. i ask because of the following context:

we are using pine on a symetry sequent box running ptx 2.2.0. we have
versions of both wordperfect 5.0 and wordperfect 5.1 available. we have no
problem sending wp5.0 files as attachments and pine uses BASE64 as the
encoding method for these files. when we attempt to send wp51 files as
attachments pine seems to pick the files up properly (it gets the right
size) but only the first few bytes (about 6 or 7 bytes) are recieved by the
recipient. pine is using quoted-printable to encode these wp51 files.

Any help would be appreciated.






From [email protected]  Wed May 12 06:41:15 1993
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Received: from danpost4.uni-c.dk by danpost4.uni-c.dk
         id <[email protected]>; Wed, 12 May 1993 15:28:26 +0200
Subject: Re: function keys ... YES!
To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 15:28:23 +0200 (MET DST)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> from "Jason R. Thorpe" at May 11, 93 06:35:31 pm
Organisation: UNI-C, Danish Computer Centre for Research and Education
X-Address: Building 305 DTH, DK-2800 Lyngby, Denmark
X-Phone: +45 45 93 83 55
X-Fax: +45 45 93 02 20
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 285
From: Erik Lawaetz <[email protected]>

> I believe this has been discussed before here, and I believe that it
> doesn't work because Latin-1 is not part of the MIME standard...RIGHT?  (I
> think...something like that...)

Yep, Latin-1 is not part of MIME. Currently recognized char sets are
US-ASCII and ISO-8859-x.

--Erik


From [email protected]  Wed May 12 10:24:01 1993
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       id AA01187; Wed, 12 May 93 10:10:37 -0700
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 10:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: quoted-printable mime encoding
To: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


Pine 3.0x has some known "quirks" in MIME encoding/decoding.  Pine 4.0
will have much improved MIME support...

*****************************************************************************
David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
100 Sprout Road
Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
*****************************************************************************


On Wed, 12 May 1993, bob ellsworth s wrote:

> hi : does pine have problems with the "quoted-printable" form of mime
> encoding. i ask because of the following context:
>
> we are using pine on a symetry sequent box running ptx 2.2.0. we have
> versions of both wordperfect 5.0 and wordperfect 5.1 available. we have no
> problem sending wp5.0 files as attachments and pine uses BASE64 as the
> encoding method for these files. when we attempt to send wp51 files as
> attachments pine seems to pick the files up properly (it gets the right
> size) but only the first few bytes (about 6 or 7 bytes) are recieved by the
> recipient. pine is using quoted-printable to encode these wp51 files.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
>
>





From [email protected]  Wed May 12 10:46:41 1993
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       id AA01272; Wed, 12 May 93 10:34:03 -0700
Date: Wed, 12 May 1993 10:19:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: pine (pico) enhancement request
To: Seppo Kallio <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


On Wed, 12 May 1993, Seppo Kallio wrote:

>
> 1. The vt100 and vt200 terminals have select, insert, remove  keys. They
>    are easy to use. pine (pico) should work with them. The C-k is  C-u
>    not enough
>
Not all terminals support these features.  One of the key objectives of
the pine design was to make it consistent for everyone.  I suppose that
the above functionality could be turned on with function-key support
though.

> 2. There could be some Do-key and some extra commands with english words
>    Compare to MAX/VMS eve (tpu) editor. It has some direct keys
>    to do mos editing - but there is alo the do + english word command
>    It is easy for people to learn. I do not mean the Do key on VT200.
>    It could be any key in princible.
>
Another objective of Pine is to keep it as simple as possible.  If you
start adding a bunch of extended commands, you would be better off to just
use emacs...

> 3. In Address book the commands are a little complicated. There are
>
> ? Help       M Main Menu  T AddToList   - Prev Pg     A Add         D Delete
>              S CreateList L Print   SPACE Next Pg     E Edit        W Where is
>
> Why is there two types of lists? I see only one type actually:
>
> nickname,comment,list of user address(es)
>
> If there is more than one name in the "list" it is a list.
>
> Maybe there is some programming (mail system) technical reason, but why
> irritate users with it?
>
There are not two types of lists.  There are single entries and
distribution lists.  Although I suppose you could make single entries a
list of one, it makes more sense to me to distinguish between them.  Our
users, most of whom are novices, seem to have no trouble with the way
it is set up now...

> After this you need few simple commands:
>
> 1. create new nicname
> 2. add more addresses to the nicname (the line cursor is pointing)
> 3. edit (the field cursor is pointing, address, nicname, name)
> 4. print address book
> 5. delete (the field cursor is pointing, address,nicname,...)
>
Where does this differ from what is there now?

> I think in elm there is only one type of address book entry. Why have you
> added one more?
> --
>  +----- Seppo Kallio --------+---- [email protected] ------- Eudora mailer ----+
>  !    Computing Centre       !   Fax +358-41-603611 Phone +358-41-603606   !
>  !  University of Jyvaskyla  !            Telex 28218 JYU FI               !
>  +------- Finland -----------+- [email protected] Mac-k{ytt{jien postiosoite +
>





From [email protected]  Wed May 12 12:27:44 1993
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Date:         Wed, 12 May 93 12:26:57 CDT
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re:  CHARSET considerations
To: John C Klensin <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Cc: [email protected], [email protected]
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 11 May 1993 21:05:35 -0400 (EDT) from
<[email protected]>

Hi, John,

>                                                    However, please
>review the archives before you do so, as most of the known horses in
>this area have been kicked to death, and extensively post-death, many
>times already.

       I've been doing that,  but it has taken no small amount of time.
Perhaps I should have tried to shorten the path and not review  ALL
of the ietf-822 archives.   But you are correct,  and I'd appreciate it
if more folks did  not  make the mistake that I appear to be making.

>If the issue is how character sets are defined or what they are, please
>take the conversation elsewhere, possibly to [email protected]
>(subscriptions to [email protected]): character sets
>have been explicitly removed from the scope of this WG and its mailing
>list.

       Thanks for the corrected reference.

       Look ... I sincerely don't mean to be a whiner or to beat the
skeletal remains of yet-another-dead-horse,  but I  DON'T  see closure
on it and  DO  see  a solution / solution(s).   But I am a newcomer
(for reasons which escape me).

>>        Dan,  I'm surprised that you report trouble reading  "CHARSET=
>>Latin-1"  mail with Pine.
>
>Any version of anything that proports to be MIME and contains
>     text/plain; charset=latin-1
>is badly broken; "latin-1" is not a registered, or registerable, entity.

       Any user of Pine 3.05 (and as far as I can tell 3.07 or 2.x)
can shoot themself in the foot  (head if you prefer)  by setting
character-set = Zeldas_private_codepage.   Should the Pine developers
remove this feature?   I think not.   Leave it open-ended.

       Pine tries to do MIME;  that's how this thread crossed.   Sorry.

       Small ROT is that software should generate the cleanest possible
protocol while accepting as much as possible and silently ignoring whatever
doesn't make sense but is otherwise harmless.   So,  yeah,  my  .pinerc
was broken and I'm a jerk for ruining everyone's day,  but that's balanced
against my former life on a  US-ASCII_is_foreign  system along with the
legitimate goal of leaving Pine (and everything) as open ended as possible.

       I'll subscribe to  ietf-charsets  and =just listen= until I have
some handle on the reality there.   Meantime,  every MIME compliant MUA
is causing numerous (not all) mail gateways to deliver incorrect data.
I WOULD NOT  ask any of these MUAs to stop [mis]labelling their mail,
but I would like to get the problem corrected.   A short-term solution
is to leave CHARSET= off if it's not absolutely essential.

>     --john

Rick Troth <[email protected]>,  Rice University,  Information Systems


From [email protected]  Wed May 12 12:44:58 1993
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Resent-Date:  Wed, 12 May 93 14:35:06 CDT
Resent-From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Resent-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 11 May 1993 15:52:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject: function keys ... YES!
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]

       Sorry for the confusion resulting from  "Latin-1".

       Here's the original message,  hopefully in readable form.

Rick Troth <[email protected]>,  Rice University,  Information Systems
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
       Well I'm truly tickled.   Thanks to the Pine developers
for supporting  "the escape sequences for a number of conventions".
This is a good thing to do.   Can/do you extend these?   I notice
that you  "[do] not use termcap to discover them",  and I agree
with this,  but would suggest augmenting the built-ins with the
definitions in termcap,  when possible.

       Can I remap these?   The doc doesn't say so.   I'm very
happy that I don't have to  control-this  and  control-that  always,
but sometimes I'm on a wierd keyboard and have to fall-back to
non-function-key mode.   I'd rather STAY in function-key mode.
One solution is to have two-stroke alternatives to the function keys:

               <ESC>1          F1
               <ESC>2          F2
               <ESC>3          F3
               <ESC>4          F4
               <ESC>5          F5
               <ESC>6          F6
               <ESC>7          F7
               <ESC>8          F8
               <ESC>9          F9
               <ESC>0          F10
               <ESC>-          F11
               <ESC>=          F12

       I don't especially *like* the above list,  but it's nice
to have for those times when I'm on a strange terminal (or emulator)
or somehow have TERM= temporarily messed-up.

--
Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems


From [email protected]  Thu May 13 00:52:13 1993
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Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 10:40:15 +0200
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Seppo Kallio)
Subject: Re: pine (pico) enhancement request
X-Charset: ISO_8859-1
X-Char-Esc: 29

>On Wed, 12 May 1993, Seppo Kallio wrote:
>> 1. The vt100 and vt200 terminals have select, insert, remove  keys. They
>>    are easy to use. pine (pico) should work with them. The C-k is  C-u
>>    not enough
>>
>Not all terminals support these features.  One of the key objectives of
>the pine design was to make it consistent for everyone.  I suppose that
>the above functionality could be turned on with function-key support
>though.

All vt100 and vt200 terminals do have those keys and good vt100 & vt200
emulators also. I do not see why vt200 users are not allowed to use the
select/remove/insert keys when they are much more easy to use than the
C-k/C-u keys.

>> 2. There could be some Do-key and some extra commands with english words

>Another objective of Pine is to keep it as simple as possible.  If you
>start adding a bunch of extended commands, you would be better off to just
>use emacs...

Emacs is awfull for a novice to use - compare it to VAX/VMS EVE/TPU!

You mean that program with a lot of possibilities can not be simple to use?
I disagree. Program can be big and include a lot of featuers and be very
easy to use at the same time. EVE/TPU in VAX/VMS is one example of that
kind of program. It includes most emacs features but it is quite simple to
use.

>> After this you need few simple commands:
>>
>> 1. create new nicname
>> 2. add more addresses to the nicname (the line cursor is pointing)
>> 3. edit (the field cursor is pointing, address, nicname, name)
>> 4. print address book
>> 5. delete (the field cursor is pointing, address,nicname,...)
>>
>Where does this differ from what is there now?

>> ? Help       M Main Menu  T AddToList   - Prev Pg     A Add         D Delete
>>              S CreateList L Print   SPACE Next Pg     E Edit        W Where

1. Now you have 2 create commands: Add and CreateList
In my succestion there is only one.

2. Novice has a problem if he wants add one name to the alias, he must
delete it and create a list.
In my succestion there is no problem.

3. The function of command Add is not very clear: Does it add a name to
list or new alias?

4. When you create a list command is CreateList (That is clear)
When you create a alias, the command is Add (Add what and where? That is
not clear if you do not read docs, and they do not.)

Maybe the biggest problem is in the command names. But I do not see any
reason for why there is alias and list. Why there is two types of entries
in the address book when only one is needed?
--
+----- Seppo Kallio --------+---- [email protected] ------- Eudora mailer ----+
!    Computing Centre       !   Fax +358-41-603611 Phone +358-41-603606   !
!  University of Jyvaskyla  !            Telex 28218 JYU FI               !
+------- Finland -----------+- [email protected] Mac-k{ytt{jien postiosoite +



From [email protected]  Thu May 13 02:40:51 1993
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 10:24:45 +0100 (BST)
From: "A. Hilborne" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: quoted-printable mime encoding
To: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 12 May 1993, David L. Miller wrote:

> Pine 3.0x has some known "quirks" in MIME encoding/decoding.  Pine 4.0
> will have much improved MIME support...

I'd like to ask a question about this support.  Will it include fall-back
to metamail?  This would seem to be desirable so that if, say, our site
puts in new support for viewing and sending faxes using MIME, it can be
immediately available with all our mailers.

--
Andrew M. Hilborne                        [email protected]
Computing Service                    Tel: +44 91 222 8226 (direct)
University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.    +44 91 222 8039 (Comp Service office)





From [email protected]  Thu May 13 07:47:12 1993
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 07:26:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: quoted-printable mime encoding
To: "A. Hilborne" <[email protected]>
Cc: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>,
       [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 13 May 1993, A. Hilborne wrote:

> On Wed, 12 May 1993, David L. Miller wrote:
>
> > Pine 3.0x has some known "quirks" in MIME encoding/decoding.  Pine 4.0
> > will have much improved MIME support...
>
> I'd like to ask a question about this support.  Will it include fall-back
> to metamail?  This would seem to be desirable so that if, say, our site
> puts in new support for viewing and sending faxes using MIME, it can be
> immediately available with all our mailers.

Andrew,
The intention is to implement the "mailcap" facility, similar to what is
in Nathaniel's metamail distribution.  It is indeed our goal to be able to
add support for new subtypes without changing Pine.  Ideally, we'd like
to be able to handle printing as well as viewing via the mailcap
facility, and have a way to pipe output back into a Pine browser window,
so you do support PEM, etc, by just adding the appropriate table entry.
(It's much easier if you can assume a multi-window display.)
We haven't yet determined whether we can achieve those functional goals
in a way that is upward compatible with the existing mailcap definition.

-teg



From [email protected]  Thu May 13 11:26:35 1993
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         Thu, 13 May 1993 19:06:10 +0100
Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 19:05:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Alan Thew <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Alan Thew <[email protected]>
Subject: Problems with blank lines left at end of pine mail items
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I have done some tests on this, even using other editors etc but pine
seems to insist on leaving a couple of blank lines at the end of each
mail item. This causes problems with some list management software that
we run here.

Other MUAs don't seem to have this feature/problem.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Alan Thew





From [email protected]  Thu May 13 11:31:38 1993
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 14:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: quoted-printable mime encoding
To: bob ellsworth s <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], nora znotinas F <[email protected]>,
       Arleen Greenwood s <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

This may be a bug in Pine 3.05. There was a version of Pine that had a bug
attaching files with NULL characters in them. It would behave as you
described. I think it was fixed in a version after 3.05, though I don't
know for certain if it's in Pine 3.07.  I'd suggest giving it a try.

Laurence Lundblade
 [email protected] or [email protected] (both forward to same place)
    Blacksburg, Virginia or Seattle, Washington


On Wed, 12 May 1993, bob ellsworth s wrote:
>
> hi : does pine have problems with the "quoted-printable" form of mime
> encoding. i ask because of the following context:
>
> we are using pine on a symetry sequent box running ptx 2.2.0. we have
> versions of both wordperfect 5.0 and wordperfect 5.1 available. we have no
> problem sending wp5.0 files as attachments and pine uses BASE64 as the
> encoding method for these files. when we attempt to send wp51 files as
> attachments pine seems to pick the files up properly (it gets the right
> size) but only the first few bytes (about 6 or 7 bytes) are recieved by the
> recipient. pine is using quoted-printable to encode these wp51 files.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
>
>
>









From [email protected]  Thu May 13 17:05:58 1993
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 16:39:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On the old-growth mode:
    Seems like things that change the behavior of existing
 commands should have separate options in the .pinerc and not be
 lumped in to old-growth mode.  An example of this would be
 turning off the confirmation questions (only silly for some users).

   Additions to Pine, like adding the bounce command, the pipe
 command, MIME style forwarding, additional information displays
 etc. can be lumped together. The main reason to relegate these to
 old-growth mode is so the novice user will not be confronted by
 more commands than they can make sense of.

On the bounce command:
   Seems like there's several things the bounce command can be used for:
   - resending a message that didn't make it because of an incorrect address
   - management of a mailing list
   - others??

 Resending a returned message currently involves pulling it out of sent-mail
 and sending it on.  When this is done the original sender and the
 "re-sender" are the same.  Maybe the resend command can be added with
 a confirmation question (or even prohibition) if the original sender and the
 "re-sender" are different.

LL




From [email protected]  Thu May 13 17:30:39 1993
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Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 17:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: function keys ... YES!
To: "Jason R. Thorpe" <[email protected]>
Cc: Jim Davis <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Latin-1 is just a more people friendly name for ISO-8859-1.  For example
Pine describes iso-8859-6 as "Latin and Arabic text".

The valid setting for the character-set parameter are "iso-8859-x" and
us-ascii.  Pine understands a little about these character sets, like the
fact that iso-8859-1 through iso-8859-9 all have the lower 128 characters
the same as us-ascii.  In this case Pine will display those characters
that it can and won't display the ones it can't.  For example, if you got
a message in iso-8859-6 it would display the us-ascii characters but term
the Arabic characters into "_", unless of course you had locally set your
character set to iso-8859-6.  In that case Pine would send all the Arabic
(8 bit) characters to your screen).

When you choose a character set that Pine knows nothing about, like
"Latin-1" or perhaps "ISO-THAI" (if it existed) then it assumes it is not
possible to display it on the screen at all.  That is, unless the
character set of the message matches the characters set that Pine is
configured for.  This is why none of us but Rick could see Rick's message.

The short of it is, if you want to do Latin-1 or ISO-8859-1 text and you
have an X-terminal or a vt200, vt300... terminal that supports this
characters set, Pine will work, but you should have
"character-set=iso-8859-1" in your .pinerc.  There are however, a few bugs
with this, such as postponing the message.

Most of this is based on what is specified in the MIME standard for
handling various character sets.

Hope this makes sense!

Laurence Lundblade
 [email protected] or [email protected] (both forward to same place)
    Blacksburg, Virginia or Seattle, Washington





On Tue, 11 May 1993, Jason R. Thorpe wrote:

> On Tue, 11 May 1993, Jim Davis wrote:
>
> > This is odd.  Pine (3.05) didn't want to show me this message, printing
> >
> > [ Part 1 Unknown text "Latin-1" 33 lines ]
> > [ Can not display ... ]
> >
> > but if I toggle 'full headers' on I see the message!  Without any
> > character munging or other oddities, as far as I can tell.
>
> I have the same problem.
>
> > Is this handled differently in 3.07?
>
> Nope.  I'm using 3.07.
>
> I believe this has been discussed before here, and I believe that it
> doesn't work because Latin-1 is not part of the MIME standard...RIGHT?  (I
> think...something like that...)
>
> Later...
>
> /*****************************************************************************
>      Jason R. Thorpe - Weatherford Hall 434 - Corvallis, OR - 97331-1701
>         Bellnet (503) 737-9533     Internet [email protected]
> *****************************************************************************/
>
>





From [email protected]  Thu May 13 18:21:12 1993
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From: [email protected] (James Ralston Crawford)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 21:14:32 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> from "Laurence Lundblade" at May 13, 93 04:39:48 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 867

Laurence Lundblade writes:

> Seems like there's several things the bounce command can be used for:
>   - resending a message that didn't make it because of an incorrect
>     address
>   - management of a mailing list
>   - others??

       Rerouting messages that were sent to the "wrong" person.  If I
([y]) receive a message from user [x] that really is more appropriate
for user [z], I want to change:

[x] -> [y]

       ...to:

[x] -> [z]

       Using forward is unacceptable, because it instead produces:

[x] -> [y] -> [z]

       I don't often have cause to do something like this, but when I
do, "bounce" is about the only thing that does it effectively.

James

--
James Ralston Crawford \ System Administrator (cislabs) \ Co-AS (BEH)
[email protected] \ [email protected] \ [email protected]
"Computer, you and I need to have a little talk."  - O'Brien, ST:DS9


From [email protected]  Fri May 14 06:17:23 1993
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Date:         Fri, 14 May 93 09:00:10 EDT
From: "Iain D. Holness" <[email protected]>
Subject:      What is the status of the Pine DOS port project ?
To: [email protected]
X-Acknowledge-To: <[email protected]>

    Any information would be appreciated on this topic, as I haven't
  got a clue about the status myself.

    Iain

/=======================================================\
Iain D. Holness  <[email protected]>
Office Systems and Information Technology Group
Queen's Univerity Computing and Communications Services
Kingston, Ontario


From [email protected]  Fri May 14 08:13:57 1993
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From: Jeff Hayward <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bouncing mail (fwd)
To: [email protected] (James Ralston Crawford)
Date: Fri, 14 May 93 10:01:16 CDT
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>; from "James Ralston Crawford" at May 13, 93 9:14 pm

James Ralston Crawford writes:
       Rerouting messages that were sent to the "wrong" person.  If I
 ([y]) receive a message from user [x] that really is more appropriate
 for user [z], I want to change:

This is in fact quite common.  There are a growing number of people
who read mail from a generic address mailbox and direct it to the
appropriate party (some Postmaster mail, user help desk, "general
info", "email receptionist", customer service, etc.)  "Bounce" really
is the best for these cases.
--
Jeff Hayward


From [email protected]  Fri May 14 14:49:35 1993
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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 17:29:24 -0400
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (Steve Summit)
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: CHARSET considerations
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected], [email protected]

In <[email protected]>, Rick wrote:
>         Any user of Pine 3.05 (and as far as I can tell 3.07 or 2.x)
> can shoot themself in the foot  (head if you prefer)  by setting
> character-set = Zeldas_private_codepage.

This is almost certainly a bad idea, especially if (as Rick
implied in another part of the referenced message) the user can do
so by setting a default charset value in a user configuration file
somewhere.  (If users dink with the message headers themselves,
all bets are off.)

> Should the Pine developers remove this feature?

I'm not sure what the feature in question is, but if it's
something which lets users specify the value to be sent out as the
MIME Content-Type: charset, I think it's a bad idea, and should be
removed or significantly altered.

An easy mistake to make (I speak from experience) is to assume
that the charset parameter on a MIME Content-Type: line encodes
the character set used by the entity composing the message, or
the character set to be used by the entity displaying the
message. I find that the best way to think about charset is that
it is *neither*.  charset is an octet-based encoding used during
message transfer; it need bear no relation to the composing or
viewing character sets.  In the most general case, a message will
be composed using some native character set, translated
automatically to a MIME-registered charset, and translated at the
other end into a native display character set.  It should be more
likely that the charset value be selected by an automaton, not by
a human.

(If anyone finds the above paragraph startling, you're welcome to
write to me for clarification.  I'm not going to prolong this
message with additional explanations right now.)

It's not necessarily *wrong* to think of charset as having
something to do with the composing or viewing character set (in
many cases, not coincidentally, all three will be identical), but
it is very easy to make conceptual mistakes, implement
nonconformant software, or just generally misunderstand how MIME
is supposed to work if you don't explicitly separate in your mind
the concepts of composing/viewing character sets and transmission
charsets.  (You'll notice that I reinforce this distinction in my
own head and in this message by using the terms "character set"
and "charset" noninterchangeably.)

The charset situation is much like the canonical CRLF situation:
the fact that the canonical representation is identical to some
but not all of the available local representations guarantees
misunderstandings.

To be sure, automated selection of and translation to a registered
MIME charset is a non-trivial task, and mailers which are trying
to adopt MIME right away cannot be faulted for deferring
development of such functionality for a while.  However, just
letting users specify non-default, non-7-bit-US-ASCII, (non-MIME)
charsets is an open invitation to misunderstanding and
noninteroperability.

For now, composition agents which wish to allow users to use
extended character sets (such as Latin-1), but which elect to
relegate character set and/or charset selection to the user,
should either present the user with a menu of registered MIME
charsets from which to select (presumably it will be up to the
user to ensure that the editor or composition tool is actually
using a character set corresponding to the selected charset), or
(in the case of what it sounds like PINE is doing) at least filter
the user's open-ended charset selection against the list of
registered values (and perhaps also the X- pattern).

I've copied this message to the IETF character sets mailing list
([email protected], subscription requests to
[email protected]); any followup traffic should
be sent there, and *not* to the ietf-822 list.

                                       Steve Summit
                                       [email protected]

P.S. to [email protected]: despite my e-mail address,
I'm actually in Seattle, near UW.  I'd be glad to stop by one day
and talk with you guys in person about this stuff.


From [email protected]  Fri May 14 20:58:37 1993
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Date: Fri, 14 May 1993 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CHARSET considerations
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Cc: [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Steve -

    Thanks for your comments.  You needn't convince me; I've been involved
with the MIME charset issue for a long time (you'll note that I am one of the
authors of the ISO-2022-JP spec).  In defense of the other Pine team members,
the sin is one of omission rather than of comission; they wanted to do
something about character sets and didn't want to wire in a table of legal
values (since it might change).

    I've suggested that as a first pass the charset should only be settable
in the system config file, and that the charset always be coerced to US-ASCII
unless the text contains 8-bit characters and/or has ``funny'' control
characters such as ESC or SI/SO.  More work would definitely be needed in this
area, but you'll appreciate that there are other, higher priorities just
now...

-- Mark --



From [email protected]  Mon May 17 09:36:37 1993
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Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 09:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CHARSET considerations
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I haven't followed this discussion, but Pine does do a few things with
character sets.  For example if you set Pine to use ISO-8859-1 and send an
all ASCII message it will tag it US-ASCII (instead of ISO-8859-1).  Also,
it's smart enough to display the lower 128 for all incoming messages in
the ISO-8859-X characters sets and greek the ones it can't if the
character set of the receiving Pine is US-ASCII or ISO-8859-X.  Thought
that was what required for minimal MIME compliance.

Hope I haven't upgraded the sin from omission to comision....

LL


On Fri, 14 May 1993, Mark Crispin wrote:
> Steve -
>
>      Thanks for your comments.  You needn't convince me; I've been involved
> with the MIME charset issue for a long time (you'll note that I am one of the
> authors of the ISO-2022-JP spec).  In defense of the other Pine team members,
> the sin is one of omission rather than of comission; they wanted to do
> something about character sets and didn't want to wire in a table of legal
> values (since it might change).
>
>      I've suggested that as a first pass the charset should only be settable
> in the system config file, and that the charset always be coerced to US-ASCII
> unless the text contains 8-bit characters and/or has ``funny'' control
> characters such as ESC or SI/SO.  More work would definitely be needed in this
> area, but you'll appreciate that there are other, higher priorities just
> now...
>
> -- Mark --
>




From [email protected]  Mon May 17 11:13:38 1993
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<[email protected]>; Mon, 17 May 1993 10:59:05 PDT
Date: 17 May 1993 10:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: [email protected]
Subject: VMS
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Organization: SPIE - The International Society for Optical Engineering
X-Vms-To: IN%"[email protected]"
X-Vms-Cc: AL
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I've got a number of users, who have access to the UNIX box at the local
university, who just love PINE; I've been impressed with what I've seen.
Unfortunately we are a VAX/VMS shop; sooooo, my question is to what
extent anyone out there is working on a VMS port.

________________________________________________________________
|                                                                |
| Al Gill - Mgr./Information & Telecommunication Services        |
| SPIE                                  (e-mail: [email protected] |
| P.O. Box 10                            fax:    206.647.1445    |
| Bellingham, WA  98227-0010             phone:  206.676.3290)   |
|                                                                |
|________Remember: No matter where you go; there you are.________|



From [email protected]  Mon May 17 15:22:57 1993
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Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 15:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CHARSET considerations
To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Laurence -

    Perhaps all that is needed is a list in the system .pinerc file of all
the valid charsets, and not let the user set her charset to one that is not in
the list.  So, perhaps Pine could have US-ASCII, ISO-2022-JP, and the various
ISO-8859-x sets wired in as an initial list, and the system file specify
additional valid sets?

    The concern is to avoid letting users do things like set it to things
such as ``Latin-1'' or ``ASCII'' or similar bogons...

    What do you think?

-- Mark --



From [email protected]  Mon May 17 19:44:11 1993
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Subject: Main Menu Suggestion
From: Billy Barron <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 21:32:14 -0500
Cc: [email protected] (Shane Davis), [email protected] (David Lippke),
       [email protected], [email protected]
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>

When we were demoing UNIX PINE (as well as other items) for my boss today,
a very good suggestion came out.  The main menu should have a highlight
bar that can be moved around like the mail index screen does.  It would
make the program more consisent.


--
Billy Barron,  Information Services Manager, Univ of Texas at Dallas
[email protected]


From [email protected]  Tue May 18 00:48:09 1993
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         Tue, 18 May 93 08:31:45 +0100
Date: Tue, 18 May 93 08:31:46 +0000
From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: VMS port of Pine
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: Your message <[email protected]> of 17 May 1993 10:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I started looking at doing porting the Pine client program (*not* the imapd
server, which is non-trivial) to work with DEC's UCX software (now "TCP/IP
Services for VMS" (sic)).

I managed to get the c-client stuff to compile up with little bother and
successfully.  However I got floored by the screen management stuff and getting
sinlge keystrokes back (VAXC has a minimalist idea of what to provide for
compatibility in the way of Curses and/or Terminfo routintes)

Someone at Washington is rumoured to have some SMG code tucked away in an
archive somewhere that may be useful (if you know how to program with SMG!)

If anyone does get a Pine client working ON VAX/VMS (ideally over UCX from our
point of view) PLEASE let me know... We would really like this, as we could then
access our IMAP-served mailboxes on UNIX from our VAX/VMS systems.

                               Mike Brudenell
                               Systems Group
                               University of York Computing Service




From [email protected]  Tue May 18 01:17:05 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Tue, 18 May 1993 09:06:09 +0100
Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 09:05:23 +0100 (BST)
From: Mike Roch <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Mike Roch <[email protected]>
Subject: PCNFS Telnet and Ctrl-C
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9305180832.A10919-a100000@suma1>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Many PC users here have PCNFS. Its telnet sends an "interrupt process" on
Ctrl-C in much the same way as the Mac NCSA telnet. Unlike NCSA telnet
however, it does not seem possible to redefine this key/signal combination.
This leads to obvious problems when trying to cancel anything in Pine. Can
anyone suggest a work-around or do I need to hack Pine?

Mike

==============================================================================
Mike Roch, Computer Services Centre,                          Tel: 0734 318430
The University, Whiteknights, Reading, RG6 2AX.               Fax: 0734 753094






From [email protected]  Tue May 18 05:03:27 1993
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Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 13:28:13 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Oved Ben-Aroya <[email protected]>
Subject: opening new folders in pine
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I received a gripe from one of our computer consualts:

> I think I should report that this morning, when I worked in pine, I tried
> to create several new folders. The problem is that pine tried to create them
> in the HOME directory instead in the mail sub-directory. Perhaps you
> could take a look at it.

Indeed it's annoying.  Pine is inconsistent:  when elm-style-save=yes
is set, the automatic (by sender) folders are created in the proper
mail directory.  However, when a new, non-default folder name is
specified, it is created in the home directory.  Mail and mush have a
short way to specify the folder in the mail directory (prepending a "+"
to the name), while elm uses "=" for the same purpose.


And I have a request from my boss:  a way to tell pine to save a certain
group of users into one folder (by default).  The group is associated
with an alias, which would be a good default name.  Maybe another field
in the .addressbook (idea stollen from mail in VM)?

--
\Oved





From [email protected]  Tue May 18 06:20:01 1993
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 08:54:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Virtual Dave Lankes <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Virtual Dave Lankes <[email protected]>
Subject: Returns in PINE
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I think I saw this a while ago, but don't remember the solution. Our
computing services have just upgraded the dial-up lines to 8bit. This of
course is a good thing...except it has made a rather odd error in PINE and
PICO. When dialing in on Macs the return key seems to get translated as a
control-J or Justify not as a return. In the command line the return key
works great. This problem only exists in PINE. Is there a way to remap the
return character? stty? I know I have vt100 terminal emulation.

........................................
: R.David Lankes (a.k.a."Virtual Dave") :
: Technical Consultant AskERIC Project  :
:   Coordinator Oliver/AEGIS Project    :
:         Syracuse University           :
:     School of Information Studies     :
:       [email protected]         :
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^








From [email protected]  Tue May 18 09:04:30 1993
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 09:33:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Earl Fogel <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Earl Fogel <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: VMS port of Pine
To: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Tue, 18 May 1993, Mike Brudenell wrote:

> I managed to get the c-client stuff to compile up with little bother and
> successfully.  However I got floored by the screen management stuff and getting
> sinlge keystrokes back (VAXC has a minimalist idea of what to provide for
> compatibility in the way of Curses and/or Terminfo routintes)

I too would like to see a Pine client for VMS, and I can volunteer some
expertise in the screen management and keystroke areas (gained through
work on the VMS port of the gopher client software).

If you'ld like to collaborate on this, I can take what you've done so far,
and see how much further I can get.

--
Earl Fogel                      Computing Services
[email protected]                  University of Saskatchewan








From [email protected]  Tue May 18 09:31:15 1993
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 09:12:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CHARSET considerations
To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Yes, I think that's exactly right.  We can probably adjust the comment in
the .pinerc for now.  In the long term the .pinerc needs a lot of good
error checking.  It just hasn't been done because limited resources.

LL


On Mon, 17 May 1993, Mark Crispin wrote:

> Hi Laurence -
>
>      Perhaps all that is needed is a list in the system .pinerc file of all
> the valid charsets, and not let the user set her charset to one that is not in
> the list.  So, perhaps Pine could have US-ASCII, ISO-2022-JP, and the various
> ISO-8859-x sets wired in as an initial list, and the system file specify
> additional valid sets?
>
>      The concern is to avoid letting users do things like set it to things
> such as ``Latin-1'' or ``ASCII'' or similar bogons...
>
>      What do you think?
>
> -- Mark --
>




From [email protected]  Tue May 18 10:06:33 1993
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From: [email protected] (Bob Hawkins)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: bsd port of pine
To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 18 May 93 12:47:51 EDT
Cc: [email protected] (Wayne Jones)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

The bsd port of pine has an (apparently) undefined entity, LPASS8,
that is used in ttyin.c for handling 8-bit data.

Any ideas for what the (correct) value of LPASS8 should be in this context?
--
Bob Hawkins
[email protected]




From [email protected]  Tue May 18 10:27:34 1993
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 12:06:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Matt Simmons <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Returns in PINE
To: Virtual Dave Lankes <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 18 May 1993, Virtual Dave Lankes wrote:
> I think I saw this a while ago, but don't remember the solution. Our
> computing services have just upgraded the dial-up lines to 8bit. This of
> course is a good thing...except it has made a rather odd error in PINE and
> PICO. When dialing in on Macs the return key seems to get translated as a
> control-J or Justify not as a return. In the command line the return key
> works great. This problem only exists in PINE. Is there a way to remap the
> return character? stty? I know I have vt100 terminal emulation.
We have the same problem in one of our dorms...  The only way to fix it
for us is to tell it to go to a machine called bucc1 from the DIAL:
prompt, and then from there to telnet to camelot... otherwise, whenever
you hit return, a Ctrl-J is generated... They're using really old (slow)
AT&T PC's running Kermit.


[email protected]  Illinois has two seasons:  Winter and Construction
___________   _______________________________________^___
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|___| |___|||| |___| |___| |___|  | O | O | |  |  |        \   Chi Alpha
          |||                    |___|___| |  |__|         )   Colony #099
___________|||______________________________|______________/    Bradley Univ
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-----------'''---------------------------------------'    Yours in ZAX




From [email protected]  Tue May 18 11:26:40 1993
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Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 13:58:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Virtual Dave Lankes <[email protected]>
Subject: Return problem solved.
To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

It turns out is a problem in the terminal server (a cisco server by the
way). I was connecting via a telnet session that was doing odd translation
of return characters. I needed to "rlogin" and bring the default vt100
environment with me. Thanks Syracuse Computing (John Wobus) for the answer.

........................................
: R.David Lankes (a.k.a."Virtual Dave") :
: Technical Consultant AskERIC Project  :
:   Coordinator Oliver/AEGIS Project    :
:         Syracuse University           :
:     School of Information Studies     :
:       [email protected]         :
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




From [email protected]  Tue May 18 12:21:34 1993
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Message-Id: <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] (Bob Hawkins)
Cc: [email protected], [email protected] (Wayne Jones)
Subject: Re: bsd port of pine
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 May 1993 12:47:51 EDT."
            <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 22:06:34 +0300
From: Pekka Kytolaakso <[email protected]>

Your message dated: Tue, 18 May 1993 12:47:51 EDT
> The bsd port of pine has an (apparently) undefined entity, LPASS8,
> that is used in ttyin.c for handling 8-bit data.
> =

> Any ideas for what the (correct) value of LPASS8 should be in this conte=
xt?
> -- =

> Bob Hawkins

I don't remember now (I'm writing from home) but I can send You diff's
that make pine 3.07 work on convex. I'll propably do it tomorrow.

Pekka Kyt=F6laakso
---------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]     Centre for Scientific Computing
[email protected]  PL 40   SF-02101 Espoo FINLAND
Phone: +358 0 4571       Telefax: + 358 0 4572302


From [email protected]  Tue May 18 14:25:38 1993
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Content-Type: text/plain
Date:         Tue, 18 May 93 15:31:15 CDT
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject:      Re: CHARSET considerations
To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 14 May 93 17:29:24 -0400 from <[email protected]>

On Fri, 14 May 93 17:29:24 -0400 Steve said:
>In <[email protected]>, Rick wrote:
>>         Any user of Pine 3.05 (and as far as I can tell 3.07 or 2.x)
>> can shoot themself in the foot  (head if you prefer)  by setting
>> character-set = Zeldas_private_codepage.
>
>This is almost certainly a bad idea,   ...

       Although I used this to defend my action of having used an
illegitimate CHARSET,  I do  NOT  think that all  "user can shoot
themself in the foot"  features are bad.   Specifically,  I feel
(quite strongly)  that the user should be able to specify any old
charset and have display at least attempted at the other end.

       The long term solution is,  of course,  to map between
"character sets"  (which the use should have control over)  and
"charsets"  (which the user should leave alone).

       My only request of Pine from all this noise is that Pine
NOT LABEL  messages of  Content-Type:  text/plain.
(this may be counter to RFC 1341;  is it?)

>> Should the Pine developers remove this feature?

       No.

>                  charset is an octet-based encoding used during
>message transfer; it need bear no relation to the composing or
>viewing character sets.

       Right.   I maintain that CHARSET specification should be
omitted when feasible.   This is because there are such things as
gateways which translate the SMTP octet-stream into anything.

       There are two goals:  1)  to be able to specify new and/or
extended character sets  (and mark-ups and other extensions to plain text)
and  2)  to use  "plain text"  (in mail)  as a transport medium.
For the former,  use  Base64  encoding when needed.   For the latter,
don't label the text  "ASCII"  or any other codepoint mapping if there's
any way on earth that it might get translated by a gateway.

       I don't think this is making sense and I can't find the words.
Steve apparently has:   charset -vs- character_set.

       Plain text  is defined differently from system to system.
On UNIX,  plain text is ASCII (now ISO-8859-1) with lines delimited by
NL (actually LF).   On NT,  plain text is 16 bits wide  (so I hear).
That ain't ASCII,  though we could be the high-order 8 bits for much
of plain text processing,  and that's fine by me.   (memory is cheap)
On VM/CMS,  plain text is EBCDIC (now CodePage 1047) and records are
handled by the filesystem out-of-band of the data,  so NL (and LF and CR)
aren't sacred characters.   Now ... "mail is plain-text,  not ASCII".

>                         In the most general case, a message will
>be composed using some native character set, translated
>automatically to a MIME-registered charset, and translated at the
>other end into a native display character set.

       Right!   99 times out of 100 you don't care,  but there's that
1% of the time when you've called it  US-ASCII  and it's  NOT anymore,
although it  *is*  still legitimate  "plain text".

>           (You'll notice that I reinforce this distinction in my
>own head and in this message by using the terms "character set"
>and "charset" noninterchangeably.)

       Thanks.   That helps.

>The charset situation is much like the canonical CRLF situation:
>the fact that the canonical representation is identical to some
>but not all of the available local representations guarantees
>misunderstandings.

       Right!   And this thinking,  carried into MIME  (thus this
should be kicked BACK TO the IETF-822 list,  but I refrain),  shows up
in the use of  CHARSET=ISO-8859-1  rather than  CHARACTER_SET=Latin-1.
If you specify  "Latin-1",  then you can  (must;  I'm arguing for a
definition here,  not an explanation)  assume that  SMTP  will carry it
as ISO-8859-1,  BUT THE RECEIVING  (or sending)  HOST MIGHT NOT.
(and yes,  sad but true,  any SMTPs will strip the high bit)

>To be sure, automated selection of and translation to a registered
>MIME charset is a non-trivial task,   ...

       Yes.   Which is why I want  routers, gateways,  and all  MTAs
(mail transfer agents)  to stay out of it.   That's why I ask that
(today,  1993)  we  NOT LABEL  true plain text as  US-ASCII/ISO-8859-1.
Just leave it alone and let it default at the receiving end.

>                                    and mailers which are trying
>to adopt MIME right away cannot be faulted for deferring
>development of such functionality for a while.

       And let me reiterate that I'm not mad at the Pine developers
(nor the MIME developers;  not mad at anyone,  just trying to push a
point that I think is important and has been missed).   I'm very pleased
with Pine.   It can almost replace RiceMAIL.

       Steve,  it's obvious from your distinction between character set
(set of characters)  and  charset  (encoding of characters)  that you
understand this issue.   Thanks for making up and using those labels!

>                                       Steve Summit
>                                       [email protected]

--
Rick Troth <[email protected]>,  Rice University,  Information Systems


From [email protected]  Tue May 18 20:33:58 1993
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From: Masataka Ohta <[email protected]>
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: CHARSET considerations
To: [email protected] (Rick Troth)
Date: Wed, 19 May 93 12:17:09 JST
Cc: [email protected], [email protected],
       ietf-charsets%[email protected],
       [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>; from "Rick Troth" at May 18, 93 3:31 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

I don't know what pine is.

But, could you please discuss on pine specific features in pine ML
only?

                                       Masataka Ohta


From [email protected]  Wed May 19 04:09:14 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Wed, 19 May 1993 11:50:30 +0100
Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 11:36:21 +0100 (BST)
From: Chris Wooff <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: opening new folders in pine
To: Oved Ben-Aroya <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 18 May 1993, Oved Ben-Aroya wrote:

> Indeed it's annoying.  Pine is inconsistent:  when elm-style-save=yes
> is set, the automatic (by sender) folders are created in the proper
> mail directory.  However, when a new, non-default folder name is
> specified, it is created in the home directory.  Mail and mush have a
> short way to specify the folder in the mail directory (prepending a "+"
> to the name), while elm uses "=" for the same purpose.
I see none of this inconsistency. Are you sure that the user has
mail-directory set correctly in .pinerc?

> And I have a request from my boss:  a way to tell pine to save a certain
> group of users into one folder (by default).  The group is associated
> with an alias, which would be a good default name.  Maybe another field
> in the .addressbook (idea stollen from mail in VM)?
We've recently moved from using a Rice-Mail lookalike on VM to elm
on Unix. The inability to associate particular users with folders
is a feature which many of our users miss. This association should
give user-dependent default folders when the user sends mail
(i.e. in the Fcc: field) and when the user "Save"s mail using the S
command. I'd therefore strongly support Oved's request for this
enhancement.

Chris



From [email protected]  Wed May 19 04:27:50 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 13:07:45 +0200
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Content-Identifier: 10241
From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <"10241*/I=t/G=harald/S=alvestrand/OU=delab/O=sintef/PRMD=uninett/ADMD= /C=no/"@MHS>
To: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Cc: scs <[email protected]>, pine-info <[email protected]>,
       ietf-charsets <[email protected]>,
       dan <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: CHARSET considerations

Rick Troth writes:
>        Plain text  is defined differently from system to system.
>On UNIX,  plain text is ASCII (now ISO-8859-1) with lines delimited by
>NL (actually LF).   On NT,  plain text is 16 bits wide  (so I hear).
>That ain't ASCII,  though we could be the high-order 8 bits for much
>of plain text processing,  and that's fine by me.   (memory is cheap)
>On VM/CMS,  plain text is EBCDIC (now CodePage 1047) and records are
>handled by the filesystem out-of-band of the data,  so NL (and LF and CR)
>aren't sacred characters.   Now ... "mail is plain-text,  not ASCII".

Please, gentlemen.....read the RFC.
As long as you send mail over the Internet, claiming MIME compatibility,
the bits on the wire have to conform to the MIME convention, *NOT* to
the local convention, whatever that is.

The omission of a character set label from text/plain
MEANS THAT THE CHARACTER SET IS US ASCII.

A message that contains characters with the high bit set CANNOT BE US-ASCII,
and therefore, a text/plain message without a charset= label in it
that has such characters IS NOT LEGAL MIME.
So, when SMTP strips the 8th bit, it gets what it deserves.

This was ******NOT******* an oversight. This was deliberate design,
designed to promote interoperability. The proliferation of mail in strange
character sets without labels is *exactly* one of the things that the MIME
effort was meant to *remove*.

End of flame..............if you want a couple of tons more, read the
archives of the SMTP and RFC-822 groups. The last flareup is hidden under
"unknown-7bit" and "unknown-8bit" discussions.

                       Harald Tveit Alvestrand


From [email protected]  Wed May 19 07:31:21 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 10:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Schlitt <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: CHARSET considerations
To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email protected]>
Cc: scs <[email protected]>, pine-info <[email protected]>,
       ietf-charsets <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <"10241*/I=t/G=harald/S=alvestrand/OU=delab/O=sintef/PRMD=uninett/ADMD= /C=no/"@MHS>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Thank you Harald.  MIME is MIME is MIME.  And if it violates the RFC it
isn't MIME and shouldn't pretend to be.

That was the point of my original cryptic comment.  Now PLEASE edit my
address out of the headers of this.  And probably all of those other
mailinglists and limit to pine-info.  PLEASE.

Thankyou.

Dan Schlitt                           School of Engineering Computer Systems
[email protected]        City College of New York
(212)650-6760                         New York, NY 10031




From [email protected]  Wed May 19 08:14:05 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 10:51:22 -0500 (EST)
From: James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>
Subject: Core dump on Ultrix build?
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Organization: Duke University Medical Center, Durham NC, USA
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

ANy ideas whay I get the following on an Ultrix build of 3.07:

Making Pine.
ln -s os-unx.h os.h
/cmplhlp2.sh  <  pine.hlp > helptext.h
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c addrbook.c
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c addrutil.c
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c adrbklib.c
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c args.c
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c folder.c
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c help.c
/cmplhelp.sh  < pine.hlp > helptext.c
cc -DULT   -g -DDEBUG -c helptext.c
Fatal error in: /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/ugen Segmentation fault - core dumped
*** Error code 11

Stop.

Links to executables are in bin directory:
ldopen: cannot open bin/pine
size: cannot open bin/pine
text    data    bss     dec     hex
241664  32768   24272   298704  48ed0   bin/mtest
233472  32768   32464   298704  48ed0   bin/imapd
208896  36864   30880   276640  438a0   bin/pico
Done


I used the build ult procedure.  I left stuff out above.

-- Jim


From [email protected]  Wed May 19 11:06:53 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 13:36:49 -0500 (EST)
From: James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>
Subject: Consistent core dump from Pine 3.07 when dealing with MIME from PMDF
To: [email protected], info-pmdf:;
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Organization: Duke University Medical Center, Durham NC, USA
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

I have a problem where a MIME mesage from PMDF 4.2 sent to a PINE 3.07 mailer
causes PINE to core dump if I try to forward or reply to the message.  This
also happens to Pine 3.05.  I cannot forward you the message (problem above)
so will cut and paste what is on my screen.

Here is what I see when I read the message via PINE (I have removed message
text):

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      PINE 3.07         VIEW MAIL         Folder:inbox  Message 32 of 34 42%

Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 09:25:35 -0500 (EST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: What is all of this about? I did not send out a messsage.
Parts/attachments:
  1   Shown  3.3 Kb     Message
  1.1 Shown   82 lines  Text
----------------------------------------



----- Part 1 "Included Message" -----

(Message text removed.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

--Boundary (ID qNw9tcUxHmAXTlJCfTBhow)
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

(message body removed)

--Boundary (ID qNw9tcUxHmAXTlJCfTBhow)
Content-type: MESSAGE/SAMPLE

(Message body removed)

--Boundary (ID qNw9tcUxHmAXTlJCfTBhow)--


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is when it dies.  I have attempted to forward the message and I say
non-mime when prompted by PINE as to whether or not to forward it as a MIME
message (maybe this is the problem?).  I just tried saying forward as a MIME
message and it works.

To      : [email protected]
Cc      :
Attchmnt: 1. [Message] (3.3Kb) ""
Subject : What is all of this about? I did not send out a messsage. (fwd)
----- Message Text -----
Test new pine

  =======================================================================
     James D. Dryfoos                  |  [email protected]
     Duke University Medical Center    |  [email protected]
     2200 West Main Street             |
     Suite 450 Room 36A                |  (919) 286-6391 - office
     Durham, NC 27710 Earth            |  (919) 286-6369 - fax
  =======================================================================

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 09:25:35 -0500 (EST)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: What is all of this about? I did not send out a messsage.


                                          [Sending mail.....]Segmentation
fault (core dumped)



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So is the problem me saying do not forward as a MIME message?  Or should Pine
handle it anyway?  I do not think that PMDF is causing this, it just
happens to be the mailer the message was sent from.

-- Jim


From [email protected]  Wed May 19 11:09:39 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 13:50:18 -0500 (EST)
From: James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>
Subject: More on consistent core dump from Pine 3.07 when dealing with mime
from PMDF
To: [email protected], info-pmdf:;
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Organization: Duke University Medical Center, Durham NC, USA
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

Would like to add that I definately cannot do a reply without a core DUMP:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To      : [email protected]
Cc      :
Attchmnt: 1. [Message] (3.3Kb) ""
Subject : Re: What is all of this about? I did not send out a messsage.
----- Message Text -----

Hum,  I think this is because I have you listed as the one to receive any
problems realted to the list.

  =======================================================================
     James D. Dryfoos                  |  [email protected]
     Duke University Medical Center    |  [email protected]
     2200 West Main Street             |
     Suite 450 Room 36A                |  (919) 286-6391 - office
     Durham, NC 27710 Earth            |  (919) 286-6369 - fax
  =======================================================================


On Wed, 19 May 1993 [email protected] wrote:


                                    [Sending mail.....]Segmentation fault
                                                                         deneb
mc.duke.edu>





From [email protected]  Wed May 19 11:53:48 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 11:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: re: Consistent core dump from Pine 3.07 when dealing with MIME from PMDF
To: James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

This is a bug in Pine, but the information you've provided is inadequate to
fix the problem.  I will need the actual message to reproduce the problem.

We were aware of a bug in 3.05 that caused this behavior, but we thought we
fixed it in 3.07.

Please make the message available to me and I will fix the problem.



From [email protected]  Wed May 19 12:11:36 1993
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id <[email protected]>; Wed, 19 May 1993 12:02:16 PDT
Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 12:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ned Freed <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Consistent core dump from Pine 3.07 when dealing with MIME from
PMDF
In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Wed, 19 May 1993 13:36:49 -0500 (EST)"
<[email protected]>
To: James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

> I have a problem where a MIME mesage from PMDF 4.2 sent to a PINE 3.07 mailer
> causes PINE to core dump if I try to forward or reply to the message.  This
> also happens to Pine 3.05.  I cannot forward you the message (problem above)
> so will cut and paste what is on my screen.

> Here is what I see when I read the message via PINE (I have removed message
> text):

Please do not post Pine problems to the info-pmdf list. Pine has nothing to do
with PMDF, and regardless of what message it gets from whatever source, should
never have occasion to core dump.

                               Ned


From [email protected]  Wed May 19 16:15:46 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 18:02:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Subject: another "robustness" request
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi,

       I've been moving notebooks from one system to another
and find that sometimes the  blank line  after the header
isn't  *really*  empty,  there's a single <SPACE> character.
Developers,  if you would,  please cause Pine to treat a line
with only white-space  (any mixture of SPACEs and TABs,
but nothing else)  to be a valid header delimiter line.

       Thanks!

--
Rick Troth <[email protected]>, Rice University, Information Systems




From [email protected]  Wed May 19 17:49:56 1993
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Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 17:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: re: another "robustness" request
To: Rick Troth <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 19 May 1993 18:02:46 -0500 (CDT), Rick Troth wrote:
> Developers,  if you would,  please cause Pine to treat a line
> with only white-space  (any mixture of SPACEs and TABs,
> but nothing else)  to be a valid header delimiter line.

This is not a good idea.

A header line with only white-space has a specific meaning in RFC-822.  It is
a continuation line with empty text.  I have seen messages which deliberately
do this (e.g. in the Comments: header).  Such messages conform to RFC-822.  A
non-null header delimiter line does not.

In effect, you are asking that a bug be introduced in Pine to work around a
bug in some other software.  The proper thing to do is to fix that other
software.

If it weren't for the fact that this had negative consequences, it might be
considered as a robustness feature.  But, to be considered as a robustness
feature, a proposed function can not break something that is already valid.



From [email protected]  Wed May 19 20:17:51 1993
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 10:09:47 +0800 (TST)
From: Ed Greshko <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Consistent core dump from Pine 3.07 when dealing with MIME from PMDF
To: Ned Freed <[email protected]>
Cc: James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>,
       [email protected], [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 19 May 1993, Ned Freed wrote:

> > I have a problem where a MIME mesage from PMDF 4.2 sent to a PINE 3.07 mailer
> > causes PINE to core dump if I try to forward or reply to the message.  This
> > also happens to Pine 3.05.  I cannot forward you the message (problem above)
> > so will cut and paste what is on my screen.
>
> > Here is what I see when I read the message via PINE (I have removed message
> > text):
>
> Please do not post Pine problems to the info-pmdf list. Pine has nothing to do
> with PMDF, and regardless of what message it gets from whatever source, should
> never have occasion to core dump.

       I've seen people get touchy about the code they write...but this one
takes the cake.

       James mentions at the end of his first message that:

"I do not think that PMDF is causing this, it just happens to be the mailer
the message was sent from."

       The guy just wanted to cover all bases and fully describe the problem.
Also, even if it isn't a PMDF problem (heaven forbid!) maybe someone in that
group would/could have offered assistance.

       Up until James talked about PMDF I didn't know it existed.  When
I first saw his message I thought about taking a look to see what kind of
package it is.  But, considering the 'my product can't be at fault' attitude
I seem to be detecting....I'm not so sure it is worth it.  I'd rather stick
with pine and its authors who are humble and gracious.

Edward M. Greshko                       Control Data Taiwan
Voice: +886-2-715-2222 x287             6/F, 131 Nanking East Road, Section 3
FAX  : +886-2-712-9197                  Taipei, Taiwan R.O.C



From [email protected]  Wed May 19 22:15:42 1993
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id <[email protected]>; Wed, 19 May 1993 22:06:34 PDT
Date: Wed, 19 May 1993 21:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ned Freed <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Consistent core dump from Pine 3.07 when dealing with MIME from
PMDF
In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Thu, 20 May 1993 10:09:47 +0800 (TST)"
<[email protected]>
To: Ed Greshko <[email protected]>
Cc: Ned Freed <[email protected]>,
       James Dryfoos- Postmaster <[email protected]>,
       [email protected], [email protected]
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>       I've seen people get touchy about the code they write...but this one
> takes the cake.

Your assumption here is incorrect -- I neither said nor implied anything
whatsoever about either my code or anyone else's. Please reread my original
posting if this isn't clear.

The situation is very simple. The info-pmdf list is a very active one, with
lots of messages about PMDF. We are constantly under fire for cluttering up
people's mailboxes with issues that are clearly unrelated to PMDF. Readers of
info-pmdf constantly send me mail about the lack of focus of the list, and they
constantly urge me to try to keep the discussion focused on products that the
list is intended to discuss.

Posting of material that is quite clearly not a PMDF problem on the info-pmdf
list is inappropriate. Period. I was simply pointing out this basic fact, and
thus far I've received two private messages commending me for taking this
stance for a change. I usually don't and I usually get yelled at a lot for it.

>       James mentions at the end of his first message that:

> > "I do not think that PMDF is causing this, it just happens to be the mailer
> > the message was sent from."

>       The guy just wanted to cover all bases and fully describe the problem.
> Also, even if it isn't a PMDF problem (heaven forbid!) maybe someone in that
> group would/could have offered assistance.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. This argument leads directly to every message
no matter what the subject being posted to every mailing list in existence,
since there there's a faint chance that someone on some list might just have
some additional insight into the problem.

Or perhaps we should have limited things to the software involved. Let's see,
we could have crossposted to info-vax, info-multinet, and probably to an
assortment of UNIX-related and hardware-related lists. Perhaps some newsgroups
like comp.lang.c and comp.lang.pascal could be added because of the languages
the various products are written in. These things could also comprise part of
the problem, and the readers of those lists might be able to offer some
insight, right?

The real problem is that such crossposting can actually work -- you reach a
wider audience and the likelihood of someone knowing how to fix the problem
really is greater. But the cost is great and this far outweighs the benefit.

As for this being a PMDF problem, how could it possibly be a PMDF problem?
Pine dumped core. Even if a PMDF bug offered up an endless stream of binary
trash in response to some Pine action it is still bogus for Pine to dump core.
Not dumping core no matter what the provocation is a fundamental property of
all robust software, and both my own use of Pine as well as everything I've
heard about it leads me to believe that it is intended to be very robust and
capable.

>       Up until James talked about PMDF I didn't know it existed.  When
> I first saw his message I thought about taking a look to see what kind of
> package it is.  But, considering the 'my product can't be at fault' attitude
> I seem to be detecting....

No such attitude was expressed or implied. I did not say that PMDF is not what
is causing the problem -- it probably is what is causing the problem. But
PMDF's actions are irrelevant; no matter what PMDF does Pine should not dump
core because of it.

> I'm not so sure it is worth it.  I'd rather stick
> with pine and its authors who are humble and gracious.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, you should be aware of a
couple of things. First, James posts quite frequently to the info-pmdf list
with genuine PMDF issues. This is what the list is for and as far as I know I
have always responded quickly and informatively to the questions he has brought
up.

You might also want to consider what the Pine maintainers would say if we
constantly discussed PMDF on the info-pine list.

In conclusion, I was simply taking a position numerous info-pmdf readers and
users of the product have asked me to take on such matters. Thus far, your lone
voice is the one dissenting view, and I find your conclusions to be
unwarranted, your arguments to be specious, and your position to be untenable.

                               Ned


From [email protected]  Thu May 20 06:20:34 1993
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Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 12:41:21 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Oved Ben-Aroya <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: opening new folders in pine
To: Chris Wooff <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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On Wed, 19 May 1993, Chris Wooff wrote:

> On Tue, 18 May 1993, Oved Ben-Aroya wrote:
>
> > Indeed it's annoying.  Pine is inconsistent:  when elm-style-save=yes
> > is set, the automatic (by sender) folders are created in the proper
> > mail directory.  However, when a new, non-default folder name is
> > specified, it is created in the home directory.  Mail and mush have a
> > short way to specify the folder in the mail directory (prepending a "+"
> > to the name), while elm uses "=" for the same purpose.
> I see none of this inconsistency. Are you sure that the user has
> mail-directory set correctly in .pinerc?
>

I've checked again.  It's OK when elm-style-save=no,  and only happen
when elm-style-save=yes.





From [email protected]  Thu May 20 13:11:43 1993
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From: [email protected] (Keld J|rn Simonsen)
Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 21:56:14 +0200
In-Reply-To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
      "RE: CHARSET considerations" (May 18, 17:30)
X-Charset: ASCII
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To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>,
       Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: CHARSET considerations
Cc: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected], [email protected],
       [email protected]

Laurence Lundblade writes:

> Yes, I think that's exactly right.  We can probably adjust the comment in
> the .pinerc for now.  In the long term the .pinerc needs a lot of good
> error checking.  It just hasn't been done because limited resources.

All of the RFC 1345 character sets are registered for MIME use.
That should be able to cover most needs.

Keld


From [email protected]  Thu May 20 14:05:41 1993
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From [email protected]  Fri May 21 00:47:58 1993
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 00:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: VMS port of Pine
To: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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Innosoft has ported imapd to VMS.  I am curious why this is so difficult,
since imapd has no network knowledge and just uses stdio.  There's a few
UNIXisms in imapd, nothing really major.

Contact Ned Freed <[email protected]> for more information.



From [email protected]  Fri May 21 06:06:31 1993
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Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 13:48:44 +0100 (BST)
From: Philip Hazel <[email protected]>
Subject: Storage of address books
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

We are in the process of setting up a machine which is to act as a mail
server for a large population. Users will access their mail using IMAP or
POP, and Pine is an obvious candidate for the User Agent.

However, there are users who will be wanting to access their mail from a
number of different places - e.g. from a University Department and from
home, and possibly from out of town from time to time. This of course will
all work fine, EXCEPT for the fact that Pine keeps its address book on the
client where you are running Pine.

Wouldn't it be nice if Pine were to keep the addressbook on the server
machine? Then it would always be available.

First thought says: "But that means modifying the IMAP protocol", but then
I thought "No, you could keep the address book in a folder file."  Is this
a silly idea? When Pine contacts a server to open {xxxx}INBOX it could
look for {xxxx}ADDRESSBOOK and read its contents over, strip off the fake
"message" header, and there you are.

I haven't developed this idea much, because those that know more than I do
may be about to tell me why it can't be done.

P.S. There's the .pinerc file as well...


--
Philip Hazel                   University Computing Service,
[email protected]             New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG,
[email protected]          England.  Phone: +44 223 334714




From [email protected]  Sat May 22 01:01:34 1993
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Date: Sat, 22 May 1993 00:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: re: Storage of address books
To: Philip Hazel <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thank you for your suggestion of storing the addressbook as a folder on the
server machine.  That is an excellent idea; in fact, it is one of the ideas we
are considering.



From [email protected]  Sun May 23 13:57:31 1993
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Date: Sun, 23 May 1993 16:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alex Sirota <[email protected]>
Subject: sub ordering of index
To: Pine Mailing List <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Is there a way to select a suborder by which he main index is sorted by. I
would like to sort first by the from field but then by the date field in
ascending order. Can this be implemented?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: please reply to [email protected] ::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::




From [email protected]  Mon May 24 06:32:19 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Mon, 24 May 1993 14:21:06 +0100
From: [email protected] (Chris Wooff)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 14:21:05 +0100
In-Reply-To: Your message of May 23, 4:44pm
References: <[email protected]>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (2.1.4 02apr93)
To: Alex Sirota <[email protected]>,
       Pine Mailing List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: sub ordering of index

At  4:44pm on May 23,  4:44pm Alex Sirota([email protected]) wrote:
> Is there a way to select a suborder by which he main index is sorted by. I
> would like to sort first by the from field but then by the date field in
> ascending order. Can this be implemented?
>
End of insertion from Alex Sirota
I believe that only one sort field is permitted.  However, I'd certainly support
the provision of more than one sort field.  When I have a lot of mail to read I
like to sort my mail on Subject (primary) and Date (secondary).  That way mail on
the same subject is grouped together in chronological ordering.  I reckon it
saves me vast amounts of time because I can more quickly skip text which
occurred in a  previous item.

Chris


From [email protected]  Mon May 24 10:51:33 1993
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From: Brahmbhatt Hitesh  <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Unsuscribe
To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 19:42:18 +0200 (MET DST)
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Unsuscribe me please.

--


       -------------------------------------------------------
       |        HITESH BRAHMBHATT                              |
       |        ZIMMER :117 ,HAUS -"O"                         |
       |        SIEGMUNDSHOF 2-4                               |
       |        1000 BERLIN 21                                 |
       |        [email protected]              |
       |        Dept. of Computer-Science TU-BERLIN (D)        |
       |        [email protected]                         |
       ---------------------------------------------------------


From [email protected]  Mon May 24 11:26:51 1993
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Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 10:48:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: sub ordering of index
To: Chris Wooff <[email protected]>
Cc: Alex Sirota <[email protected]>,
       Pine Mailing List <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I think this is a pretty good idea, probably even just for the regular
sort by subject.  It's almost net news style threading.  All you have to
do further is display only one line in the index for each subject.

I think the best thing to do group the subjects together, and then sort
the groups based on the most recent message in each group.  Opinions?

LL



On Mon, 24 May 1993, Chris Wooff wrote:
>
> I believe that only one sort field is permitted.  However, I'd certainly support
> the provision of more than one sort field.  When I have a lot of mail to read I
> like to sort my mail on Subject (primary) and Date (secondary).  That way mail on
> the same subject is grouped together in chronological ordering.  I reckon it
> saves me vast amounts of time because I can more quickly skip text which
> occurred in a  previous item.
>
> Chris
>
> At  4:44pm on May 23,  4:44pm Alex Sirota([email protected]) wrote:
> > Is there a way to select a suborder by which he main index is sorted by. I
> > would like to sort first by the from field but then by the date field in
> > ascending order. Can this be implemented?
> >
> End of insertion from Alex Sirota




From [email protected]  Mon May 24 12:53:16 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Mon, 24 May 1993 20:43:28 +0100
Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 20:38:42 +0100 (BST)
From: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>
Subject: Addressbook format
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I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
having to manually update addressbook formats.

The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
publicly available?

If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.

regards

Laurie Cuthbert




From [email protected]  Mon May 24 13:42:23 1993
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Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 13:24:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Addressbook format
To: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.07.9305242042.A16337-a100000@osprey>
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Yes, it's quite public and available.  It's documented in the Pine
Technical Notes that are distributed with Pine (There's lots of other
stuff in the Technical Notes too).  There's also a shell script to
convert from Berkeley .mailrc aliases to the Pine address book that's
distributed as part of Pine.

LL


On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurie Cuthbert wrote:
>
> I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
> to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
> used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
> someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
> having to manually update addressbook formats.
>
> The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
> publicly available?
>
> If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
> students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.
>
> regards
>
> Laurie Cuthbert
>
>
>



From [email protected]  Mon May 24 15:13:16 1993
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Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 14:12:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Addressbook format
To: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.07.9305242042.A16337-a100000@osprey>
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The addressbook format is very simple.  A simple nickname is of the form

       nickname <tab> lastname [, firstname] <tab> address

and a distribution list is of the form

       listname <tab> name of list <tab> "(" list-of-names ")"

where list-of-names is a comma separated list of addresses and/or nicknames.

Also, I have been working on the addressbook issue a bit and I would be
happy to collaborate with your student on this project.

*****************************************************************************
David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
100 Sprout Road
Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
*****************************************************************************


On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurie Cuthbert wrote:

> I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
> to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
> used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
> someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
> having to manually update addressbook formats.
>
> The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
> publicly available?
>
> If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
> students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.
>
> regards
>
> Laurie Cuthbert
>
>





From [email protected]  Mon May 24 15:18:47 1993
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Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Wall <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Addressbook format
To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Cc: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

We also have a program to convert between RICE mailer notebooks and the
Pine addressbook.  The author is Tom Remmers.  ([email protected].)

--David Wall    Computing & Communications...Client Services  3-8491
               Univ. of Washington  HG-45   [email protected]


On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurence Lundblade wrote:

> Date: Mon, 24 May 1993 13:24:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
> To: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Addressbook format
>
> Yes, it's quite public and available.  It's documented in the Pine
> Technical Notes that are distributed with Pine (There's lots of other
> stuff in the Technical Notes too).  There's also a shell script to
> convert from Berkeley .mailrc aliases to the Pine address book that's
> distributed as part of Pine.
>
> LL
>
>
> On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurie Cuthbert wrote:
> >
> > I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
> > to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
> > used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
> > someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
> > having to manually update addressbook formats.
> >
> > The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
> > publicly available?
> >
> > If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
> > students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Laurie Cuthbert
> >
> >
> >
>




From [email protected]  Tue May 25 00:41:49 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Tue, 25 May 1993 08:20:21 +0100
Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 08:19:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Addressbook format
To: "David L. Miller" <[email protected]>
Cc: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07.9305250838.D17315-b100000@osprey>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Thanks

On Mon, 24 May 1993, David L. Miller wrote:

>
> The addressbook format is very simple.  A simple nickname is of the form
>
>       nickname <tab> lastname [, firstname] <tab> address
>
> and a distribution list is of the form
>
>       listname <tab> name of list <tab> "(" list-of-names ")"
>
> where list-of-names is a comma separated list of addresses and/or nicknames.

I'm sure she would be very happy to collaborate - but it's probably best
to wait until she has starteed to do the actual work.

Regards

Laurie Cuthbert


>
> Also, I have been working on the addressbook issue a bit and I would be
> happy to collaborate with your student on this project.
>
> *****************************************************************************
> David L. Miller                       Internet: [email protected]
> Systems Programmer/Network Analyst      BITNET: MILLERD@WSUVM1
> Washington State University Tri-Cities    UUCP: ...!yoda!dmiller
> 100 Sprout Road
> Richland, WA 99352                       Phone: (509)375-9245
> *****************************************************************************
>
>
> On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurie Cuthbert wrote:
>
> > I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
> > to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
> > used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
> > someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
> > having to manually update addressbook formats.
> >
> > The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
> > publicly available?
> >
> > If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
> > students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Laurie Cuthbert
> >
> >
>
>
>





From [email protected]  Tue May 25 00:42:00 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Tue, 25 May 1993 08:17:03 +0100
Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 08:17:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Addressbook format
To: Laurence Lundblade <[email protected]>
Cc: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>, [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07.9305250827.B17315-b100000@osprey>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Thanks


On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurence Lundblade wrote:

> Yes, it's quite public and available.  It's documented in the Pine
> Technical Notes that are distributed with Pine (There's lots of other
> stuff in the Technical Notes too).  There's also a shell script to
> convert from Berkeley .mailrc aliases to the Pine address book that's
> distributed as part of Pine.
>
> LL
>
>
> On Mon, 24 May 1993, Laurie Cuthbert wrote:
> >
> > I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
> > to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
> > used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
> > someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
> > having to manually update addressbook formats.
> >
> > The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
> > publicly available?
> >
> > If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
> > students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Laurie Cuthbert
> >
> >
> >
>





From [email protected]  Tue May 25 11:00:09 1993
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Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 17:55:00 +0100 (BST)
From: Barry Cornelius <[email protected]>
Subject: Can default-fcc be set to inbox?
To: Pine Info Mailing List <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07:[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

OUR PROBLEM

We want to copy to ourself each message that is sent out.  Is there anyway
in which we can configure pine to do this automatically?

POSSIBLE SOLUTION?

Set the default-fcc variable (of ~/.pinerc) as follows:
  default-fcc=inbox
This seems to work (provided IMAP is not used), e.g.:
  inbox-path=/var/spool/mail/dcl0bjc
Although this seems to work, is this stretching the Pine system?
In particular, will the file-locking on the inbox cope with this?

Note, if IMAP is used, e.g.:
  inbox-path={vega}inbox
then the message is Fcc-ed to the file ~/{vega}inbox.  Is this a bug?
Most of our users use IMAP rather than NFS-mounting their inbox.
So we would prefer:
  default-fcc=inbox
to work with IMAP.   Will it require much work to get this working?

--
Barry Cornelius            Electronic mail: [email protected]
Post:  Computing Service, University of Durham, Durham, DH1 3LE, England
Phone: Durham (091 or +44 91) 374 4717, Secretary:374 2892, Fax:374 3741




From [email protected]  Tue May 25 11:08:56 1993
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Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 12:50:22 -0500
Subject: suggestion regarding sent-mail expiring/renaming
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Just a small ugliness...

There is zero reason for pine to prompt new Pine users regarding renaming
sent-mail just because they have no "last-time-prune-questioned" date in
pinerc. Adding a quick stat() call to check the size of the current sent-mail
folder allows skipping the prompt if the sent-mail folder is zero bytes in
length (as for new users or people who never send mail, anyway).

By the way, my "system address book" functionality is working fine now. My
latest pico  hack was to replace P_open() (and the call for the spell
checker) so that you can run things without a shell; we are using ispell -l
now. ispell is certainly much more powerful than spell, but in the interest
of leaving pico alone as much as possible, I used the -l option so it would
behave like normal spell.

Billy, the P_open() call in pico/osdep.c can be used wherever you need
popen(). Its arguments are like those to execv() (varargs), except the first
argument is a filename to be placed on the child's standard input (or "\0" if
you don't need that). There is also a P_close() there.

--Shane




From [email protected]  Wed May 26 03:17:49 1993
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         id <[email protected]>; Wed, 26 May 1993 11:09:25 +0100
From: [email protected] (Chris Wooff)
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 11:09:24 +0100
In-Reply-To: Your message of May 24, 8:38pm
References: <Pine.3.07.9305242042.A16337-a100000@osprey>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (2.1.4 02apr93)
To: Laurie Cuthbert <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: Addressbook format

At  8:38pm on May 24,  8:38pm Laurie Cuthbert([email protected]) wrote:
> I have an MSc student who will be starting her project in July. She wishes
> to write software to convert between the different "addressbook" formats
> used by the various mail user agents we have in the dept. The idea is that
> someone should be able to use different MUAs on different machines without
> having to manually update addressbook formats.
>
> The coming question is obvious: is the format used in the pine addressbook
> publicly available?
>
> If she does produce anything of use (not always the case with MSc
> students!!) I will quite happily make it generally available.
>
> Laurie Cuthbert
End of insertion from Laurie Cuthbert
I wrote a very short and simple minded shell script for converting an
elm aliases.text file to a .addressbook. It is crude but works for me
and did what I wanted.

If anyone would like a copy then email me.

Chris


From [email protected]  Wed May 26 07:18:13 1993
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Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 10:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Feidt <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Bill Feidt <[email protected]>
Subject: Possible Bug?
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Hi, we're running PINE 3.07 on a SUN SPARC 2.  Today, I received
a message with the following header:

>Return-Path: <[email protected]>
>Received: from troi.cc.rochester.edu by nalusda.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1)
>      id AA08162; Wed, 26 May 93 09:04:14 EDT
>Received: by troi.cc.rochester.edu (4.1/1.16) id AA14996; Wed, 26 May 93
>09:03:36 EDT
>Date: Wed, 26 May 93 09:03:36 EDT
>Message-Id: <[email protected]>
>From: QPC [email protected]   (via the vacation program)
>Subject: Your mail message
>Apparently-To: [email protected]

The "shortened" form of the header came out looking as follows:

>Date: Wed, 26 May 93 09:03:36 EDT
>From: [email protected]
>Subject: Your mail message

Something strange seems to be happening to the "From:" field in the
shortened form.  In the shortened form, the domain is that of the
recipient rather than the sender.  Possible bug?  --Bill

*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
|  Bill Feidt                   |  National Agricultural Library  |
|  [email protected]           |  Information Systems Division   |
|  301/504-6813                 |  Beltsville, MD 20705           |
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*








From [email protected]  Wed May 26 08:59:30 1993
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Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 08:43:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sharon Deng <[email protected]>
Subject:
To: [email protected]
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Unsubscribe me please.

Sharon Deng
Assistant Director                      Internet: [email protected]
Academic Computer Center                          [email protected]
University of Redlands                     Phone: (909)793-2121 x.4963




From [email protected]  Wed May 26 11:07:30 1993
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Message-Id: <[email protected]>
From: Gordon Good <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: remote folder management
Date: Wed, 26 May 93 13:53:27 -0400

I seem to recall some comment (perhaps in reference to PC-Pine) that
remote folder management is going to be enhanced in future versions of
Pine and PC-Pine.  Here at umich, we're planning to run an IMAP service
for the campus, and have run into some problems with Pine/Mailstrom
incompatibility in remote folder management.  Specifically, while it's
easy to specify that the inbox is a remote IMAP mailbox, we'd like to
be able to, in Pine, specify that all folder management take place on
a remote IMAP server.  This is to prevent users here from creating
folders with Pine, then wondering why they can't access them from
Mailstrom (since the IMAP server and the user's UNIX machines won't be
sharing filesystems).

So, I guess my question is: can someone fill me in on what remote
folder management in Pine is going to look like in future releases?

-Gordon


From [email protected]  Wed May 26 14:11:53 1993
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Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 13:49:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Reply-To: Terry Gray <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: remote folder management
To: Gordon Good <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 26 May 1993, Gordon Good wrote:

> So, I guess my question is: can someone fill me in on what remote
> folder management in Pine is going to look like in future releases?

Gordon,
In a nushell: for both Unix Pine and PC-Pine there will be a notion of
"folder-collections" (and also "news-collections") that are defined in the
pinerc file.  You can think of those as directories, (though they could
conceivably be a subset of a directory or some set unrelated to a
directory).

Any folder collection may be local or remote.  Here's an excerpt from
my .pinerc:

news-collections=News *{news.u/nntp}[*],
       MailNews *{news.u/nntp}[*mail*]

folder-collections=PRIMARY {shivafs.cac.washington.edu}./[*],
       PINE {shivafs.cac.washington.edu}PINE/[*],
       MailDir {shivafs.cac.washington.edu}mail/[*],
       OldNews {shivafs.cac.washington.edu}News/[*],
       Mead {mead.u.washington.edu}mail/[*],
       Phantom {phantom.cac.washington.edu}./[*],
       LAPTOP mail\[*]

In this case, all of the collections except the last one are remote.
Note that the path syntax is whatever is right for the OS storing
the collection, so watch the direction of your slashes when mixing DOS
and Unix collections.  Many people will have a single collection on
a timesharing host.  Those who use a timesharing host for dialin and
PC-Pine on their desk will typically have at least two.  I find the
Folder Collections paradigm useful for organizing things, so I tend to
have many.

Note also that the MailNews collection is defined to be the subset of
available folders (newsgroups) that have the string "mail" in their name.

It will also be possible for the default-fcc to be a remote folder.

In order to be able to *append* to an existing remote folder (i.e. Save),
or *create* a new remote folder, you will need a new version of IMAPd,
to be released *soon* with PC-Pine.  Without the extended IMAPd you can
access remote folders, but not append to or create them.

Regarding PC-Pine and "soon"... I know many of you are patiently waiting
for it.  Since I have a perfect record of being wrong about every date
I've offered so far, I'll refrain.  There is a memory leak yet to be tracked
down and a couple of command name inconsistencies yet to be fixed, but
there is steady progress and the goal grows ever closer.  (Each week we
halve the distance to the goal... :)

-teg





From [email protected]  Wed May 26 20:53:39 1993
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Date:   Wed, 26 May 1993 18:44:49 -0600
From: Steve Hole <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: remote folder management
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
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On Wed, 26 May 1993 14:49:04 -0600 Terry Gray wrote:

> In a nushell: for both Unix Pine and PC-Pine there will be a notion of
> "folder-collections" (and also "news-collections") that are defined in the
> .pinerc file.  You can think of those as directories, (though they could
> conceivably be a subset of a directory or some set unrelated to a
> directory).

We are doing fundamentally the same thing with ECSMail, except
that we call the "folder collections" "Message Services".    The idea
is to connect to a "service" that will provide access to different message
collections called "folders".    We played with the idea of calling them
Message Stores, but figured that Joe Average Person wouldn't
get the terminology.   Besides, I'd hate to elevate Mark's blood
pressure over something like X.400 terminology :-)

Message Services have a number of key attributes:

1.  Type of service:  "Mail" or "Bulletin Board".
2.  Service host.
3.  Authentication information.   Basically the userid and password
 which is authorized to connect to the message service.

Each Message Service is assigned a logical name (like Terry has
done with Pine I see), and is always referred to by that name.

Within a Message Service a user is allowed to subscribe to a number
of folders.    For bulletin board services (News), folders correspond to
individual boards, sigs or newsgroups.    Note that the underlying
bboard type is completely transparent to the user.     It is up to the
*server* to decide what type of services it will offer and how they
are accessed on the server host.

Because ECSMail is a GUI based interface, we are able to do some
interesting things with association of names to services and opening
and closing services.    I think that it will be very user friendly and
easy to understand.

Once the IMSP reference implementation becomes available, we'll
be able to add more direct Message Service management support
to the interface.    I am quite looking forward to that.

> In this case, all of the collections except the last one are remote.
> Note that the path syntax is whatever is right for the OS storing
> the collection, so watch the direction of your slashes when mixing DOS
> and Unix collections.  Many people will have a single collection on
> a timesharing host.  Those who use a timesharing host for dialin and
> PC-Pine on their desk will typically have at least two.  I find the
> Folder Collections paradigm useful for organizing things, so I tend to
> have many.

I am interested as to why you maintained "path syntax" at all in
your configuration.     Something that I have thought for some time
is that the client should really have no say at all as to where on
the server messages are stored or accessed from.    The server
should decide all of that based on the Message Service attributes
that I defined above.    We have tried to be careful to hide
that server OS information from the user and require only the
Message Service "attributes".    It works fine so far as all the user
folders have to be in a standard place defined by the server.

It does make sense to have a server configuration file that specifies
what folders and message services are provided by that server
host.    Specifically, Joel King and I have thought for some time that
it would be nice if the imapd server could be runtime configured to
identify where user folder, inboxes and News configuration sat.    That
would allow a mail adminstrator to reorganize folder and mailbox
directories and manage storage better.

Once the Kerberized version of imapd is available, I would like
to do away with the concept of having a UNIX account define
a user's authentication and mail storage.    If authentication is
handled by the Kerberos (or some other) authentication service,
then the physical location of the inbox and user folders is up to
the imapd server.    Of course any MTA delivering to an inbox
would also have to be able to locate the inbox for delivery.    I
have already begun modifications to the Z-mailer MTA to be
able to deliver to a user mailbox based on information held
in an authentication service (Kerberos).

The one interesting question that can be raised is: If I can't
specify the path for my folders, then how can I organize my mail.
Easy - support hierarchical folder models.    ECSMail will do so in
version 3.00 (end of Sept).    It appears that most of the functionality
we need is already in the c-client, we just need to make some
modifications to the MH driver and build a nice GUI graphical
representation on the front.    It should provide a very nice
abstraction for the user that is also very useable and powerful.

> Note also that the MailNews collection is defined to be the subset of
> available folders (newsgroups) that have the string "mail" in their name.
>
> It will also be possible for the default-fcc to be a remote folder.
>
> In order to be able to *append* to an existing remote folder (i.e. Save),
> or *create* a new remote folder, you will need a new version of IMAPd,
> to be released *soon* with PC-Pine.  Without the extended IMAPd you can
> access remote folders, but not append to or create them.

The alpha ECSMail v2.00 uses imapd 2.4 which supports News and
remote folder management functions very nicely.    It works quite well,
and we can happily drag and drop between local and remote folders.
This is really a fine piece of work Mark!

I hope I didn't ramble on too much.    I think that this is important
because it really emphasizes the power of the remote mail access
protocol model over file based solutions.    It is definitely the
right solution for large organizations or organizations with highly
mobile individuals.

Cheers.



From [email protected]  Thu May 27 06:19:30 1993
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 09:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: e <[email protected]>
Subject: SGI & NIS
To: Pine Info <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I am having problems getting pine to use NIS entries on an SGI platform.
Any local user ids that can't be found end of with a TO: entry of

To:  e <[email protected]>

I noticed that the make does include the sun lib which is suppose to then
use the NIS calles for getpw... but it does not look like it is working.
The NIS password file is in a separate file from /etc/passwd.

Anyone else have similar problems or suggestions.
Thanks
Jamie

------------------------------------------------------
Jamie Wyatt
Network and Systems Administrator
Dept. of Computer Science, Brock University
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada, L2S 3A1
[email protected]





From [email protected]  Thu May 27 07:46:06 1993
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Return-Path: <eran>
Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 16:36:31 +0300 (IDT)
From: Eran Lachs <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SGI & NIS
To: e <[email protected]>
Cc: Pine Info <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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Hello All,

 I've been meaning to write about Pine under SGI for quite some time now.
Our imap server runs on a DecStation. Transparent access via the rimap
mechanism works fine from Sun machines and IBM RS6K machines.
Pine under SGI, although compiled with -lsun for NIS support, always asks
for a username/password combination.

 Now for what Jamie has seen:

> I am having problems getting pine to use NIS entries on an SGI platform.
> Any local user ids that can't be found end of with a TO: entry of

I've tested Composer on Sun, IBM and SGI - all produce a To: line like:
To      : [email protected]

Only the imap server machine, while running Pine, produces:
To      : Eran Lachs <[email protected]>

Any pointers to the above two points much appreciated.
BTW - all mentined Pines are 3.05 (IBM's are 3.0.5a).

Eran Lachs   ([email protected])
Ben Gurion University Computation Center
Beer Sheva, Israel



From [email protected]  Thu May 27 09:25:39 1993
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Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Crowhurst <[email protected]>
Subject: Please unsubscribe me
To: [email protected]
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--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-=--=--=--=--=--=--=--
Jon Crowhurst                   (503) 690-1035        [email protected]
Oregon Graduate Institute,   19600 NW Von Neumann Dr.,   Beaverton, OR 97006
--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-=--=--=--=--=--=--=--




From [email protected]  Fri May 28 00:20:48 1993
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Date: Fri, 28 May 93 08:02:00 +0000
From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
To: e <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SGI & NIS
Cc: Pine Info <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: Your message <[email protected]> of Thu, 27 May 1993 09:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=US-ASCII

>   I am having problems getting pine to use NIS entries on
>   an SGI platform. Any local user ids that can't be found
>   end of with a TO: entry of
>
>   To:  e <[email protected]>
>
>   I noticed that the make does include the sun lib which
>   is suppose to then use the NIS calles for getpw... but
>   it does not look like it is working. The NIS password
>   file is in a separate file from /etc/passwd.
>
>   Anyone else have similar problems or suggestions.

Yes!  I had exactly this problem too!

I traced the problem to some apprarent incompatibility between the compatibility
routines declared in the c-client/os_sgi.c & .h files and the ones provided by
the real operating system.

For some strange reason the c-client for SGI comes shipped with its own
functions for these functions: strtok; strchr; strrchr; strstr; strpbrk;
strerror; memcpy; memmove; memset; strtol.  These are all available as standard
IRIX provided routines (an din fact keeping the extra c-client routines in leads
to some warning mesages later from ld about multiply defined routines).

I "cured" the problem simply by removing *all* the above routines from the
c-clinet/os_sgi.[ch] files, did a "make clean" to remove *all* the .o and .a
files, and doing a total rebuild.

This problem was in Pine 3.05 too (where I originally encountered and traced
it); when Pine 3.07 came along I just reapplied my context diffs to elimiate the
bogus routines again.

                                                       Mike B-)




From [email protected]  Fri May 28 00:36:44 1993
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         Fri, 28 May 93 08:23:32 +0100
Date: Fri, 28 May 93 08:23:31 +0000
From: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
To: Pine Info <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: VMS port of Pine
Cc: "James H. Thompson - HNL" <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: Your message <[email protected]> of 27 May 1993 11:24:23 -1000
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Gosh!  Isn't it amazing when you open your mouth!

I've had a lot of queries from people asking about "my" VMS port of Pine.  I
think I'd better clear up some misapprehensions before I get inundated!

*  I took the standard Pine 3.07 distribution kit and unpacked it on VMS.

*  We are using DEC's UCX (now called TCP/IP Services for VMS?) software as a
transport mechanism, and I wanted to see if I could get the Pine *client* (NB.
*Not* the impad daemon) working under VMS, so VMS users could query the imapd
running on our UNIX boxes.

*  After about an afternoon of minor fiddling with the c-client sources they all
compiled happily under VAXC and linked with the UCX libraries.  The "mtest" test
program worked: you could connect to the UNIX IMAP service and login, list your
messages, etc..

*  Then came a LOT of fiddling with the Pico and Pine stuff.  Unfortunately
Pico/Pine are very much into using UNIX's curses or terminfo databases, and lots
of ioctl calls that VAXC does not provide or fully implement :-(

*  I decided I couldn't progress any further.  After keeping the c-client
sources around for ages I eventually had to delete them ... one week before all
this started (sigh!).

*  The c-client stuff really is trivial to get up and working.  The one gotcha
is that you should *resist* the temptation to bundle all the object files into
an object library (a ".olb" file, the equivalent of the ".a" libraries on UNIX)
as this causes the linker to create an incorrect executable (the problem lies in
the linking in of the mail drivers to the main program).  Instead keep all the
object files separate and link them explicitly.

*  Some brave sole might be able to fake some terminfo or curses "compatibility"
routines which provide sufficient know-how to drive, say, a VT100 type terminal
(this should satisfy virtually everyone!).  I can't.  This would deal with the
output side of things.

*  This leaves the input side, where someone would need to figure out about
single key I/O and things.  Given that there already exist similar program (such
as the Gopher 1.12 program which compiles happily under VAX/VMS with VAXC and
UCX) this may not be too much of a problem for someone withthe time and
expertise.  I'm afraid I certainly don't have at least the former :-(

So to summarise....

There is and will be no progress on a VMS Pine client from me, I'm afraid.

If someone else manages to get such a beastie up and running (preferably Pine
3.07) I would be *VERY* interested, as it would grealy help us in our gentle
migration from VMS to UNIX over the next couple of years.  *PLEASE* let me
know!

I hope this clears everything up a bit (I never actually said in my original
message that I was still actively working on a port, but hope springs eternal in
people's hearts, I suppose! :-)

                                                       Mike B-)




From [email protected]  Fri May 28 01:21:19 1993
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Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 00:49:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SGI & NIS
To: Mike Brudenell <[email protected]>
Cc: e <[email protected]>,
       Pine Info <[email protected]>
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
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Mike -

    Thank you for informing me about the problem with the SGI port.  I have
fixed it in the c-client sources, and eventually the change will percolate
into the Pine distribution.  I have no access to any SGI systems, so I am
completely dependent upon those who do for information.  The SGI port was
supplied by a user, modified from one of the other ports (probably the BSD
port).

    I would like to plead with everyone that if you discover this sort of
incompatibility, don't just fix it at your site and let the matter be.  Tell
us about it!  We are interested, and will do our utmost to get fixes in later
releases.  Most of the Pine development at UW is done under Ultrix or NeXT,
since those are the machines used by the Pine team.  We have access to a few
other machines (most notably, we support Pine/imapd on the computer center's
PTX machine), but otherwise we are dependent upon you for ports for other
platforms as well as keeping these ports from succumbing to software rot.

-- Mark --



From [email protected]  Fri May 28 14:12:47 1993
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From: [email protected] (John Benjamins)
Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 10:09:12 -0400
In-Reply-To: Mark Crispin <[email protected]>
      "Re: SGI & NIS" (May 28, 12:49am)
X-Department: Computing and Information Services, McMaster University
X-Disclaimer: These are MY opinions, not CIS' or McMaster University's
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
To: Pine Info <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SGI & NIS

Jamie,

further to my note of last night,  i just built 3.07 "out of the box"
and the NIS password routines work okay.  this is on machines running
IRIX 4.0.1 and 4.0.5F.  the fact that the NIS passwd file is not
/etc/passwd is a red herring, because NIS passwd lookups go to the NIS
server, not to a file on the local machine.

On May 27,  9:02am, you wrote:
} Subject: SGI & NIS
} I am having problems getting pine to use NIS entries on an SGI platform.
} Any local user ids that can't be found end of with a TO: entry of
}
} To:  e <[email protected]>
}
} I noticed that the make does include the sun lib which is suppose to then
} use the NIS calles for getpw... but it does not look like it is working.
} The NIS password file is in a separate file from /etc/passwd.
}
} Anyone else have similar problems or suggestions.
} Thanks
} Jamie
}-- End of excerpt of May 27,  9:02am

as for the following, i don't see ANY of these problems.

On May 28,  8:02am, Mike Brudenell wrote:
} Subject: Re: SGI & NIS
} [ ... Jamie's message deleted for brevity ... ]
}
} Yes!  I had exactly this problem too!
}
} I traced the problem to some apprarent incompatibility between the compatibility
} routines declared in the c-client/os_sgi.c & .h files and the ones provided by
} the real operating system.
}
} For some strange reason the c-client for SGI comes shipped with its own
} functions for these functions: strtok; strchr; strrchr; strstr; strpbrk;
} strerror; memcpy; memmove; memset; strtol.  These are all available as standard
} IRIX provided routines (an din fact keeping the extra c-client routines in leads
} to some warning mesages later from ld about multiply defined routines).
}
} I "cured" the problem simply by removing *all* the above routines from the
} c-clinet/os_sgi.[ch] files, did a "make clean" to remove *all* the .o and .a
} files, and doing a total rebuild.
}
} This problem was in Pine 3.05 too (where I originally encountered and traced
} it); when Pine 3.07 came along I just reapplied my context diffs to elimiate the
} bogus routines again.
}
}                                                         Mike B-)
}
}
}-- End of excerpt of May 28,  8:02am

what version of IRIX are you running?  are you using the SGI C
compiler?  rather than include my entire build log, here are the
warnings i see:

Making Pico
       ....
       cc -c -cckr -Dsgi -DJOB_CONTROL -g osdep.c
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 149: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
         signal(1      , (void *)do_hup_signal);
     -----------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 150: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
         signal(14     , (void *)do_alarm_signal);
     -------------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 155: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
         signal(25     , (void *)winch_handler);
     -----------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 558: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
         signal(28     , (void *)rtfrmshell);
     --------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 595: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
         signal(14     , (void *)do_alarm_signal);
     -------------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 609: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
       signal(1        , (void *)do_hup_signal);
     -----------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: osdep.c, line 1323: void * and function pointers are not convertible to each other
         signal(25     , (void *)winch_handler);
       .....

Making Pine.
       .....
cpp: warning ./os.h:318: DF_OLD_STYLE_REPLY redefined
[ ... this warning is repeated everytime os.h is #include'ed ... ]
ccom: Warning: init.c, line 370: illegal combination of pointer and integer, op =
                 if ((p=getenv("HOME")) !=0)
     ---------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: init.c, line 370:  types :  pointer to unsigned char  versus  int
                 if ((p=getenv("HOME")) !=0)
     ---------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: init.c, line 391: illegal combination of pointer and integer, op =
                         if ((p=getenv(word)) !=0)
     ---------------------------------------^
ccom: Warning: init.c, line 391:  types :  pointer to unsigned char  versus  int
                         if ((p=getenv(word)) !=0)
     ---------------------------------------^

that's it.  no warnings about the string functions at all.  i agree
though that there's no need for definitione of all the string
functions in c-client/os_sgi.c, when they are already in the standard
IRIX libraries.  as for the original NIS problem, i don't see off-hand
why these multiple definitions, etc. would cause the problem of NIS
passwd lookups failing from pine.

i will volunteer to clean up the SGI stuff, unless someone else wants
to:-).  it may take me some time before i can get to this though.

Mark Crispin,

On May 28, 12:49am, you wrote:
} Subject: Re: SGI & NIS
} Mike -
}
}      Thank you for informing me about the problem with the SGI port.  I have
} fixed it in the c-client sources, and eventually the change will percolate
} into the Pine distribution.  I have no access to any SGI systems, so I am
} completely dependent upon those who do for information.  The SGI port was
} supplied by a user, modified from one of the other ports (probably the BSD
} port).
}
}      I would like to plead with everyone that if you discover this sort of
} incompatibility, don't just fix it at your site and let the matter be.  Tell
} us about it!  We are interested, and will do our utmost to get fixes in later
} releases.  Most of the Pine development at UW is done under Ultrix or NeXT,
} since those are the machines used by the Pine team.  We have access to a few
} other machines (most notably, we support Pine/imapd on the computer center's
} PTX machine), but otherwise we are dependent upon you for ports for other
} platforms as well as keeping these ports from succumbing to software rot.
}
} -- Mark --
}
}-- End of excerpt of May 28, 12:49am


hope this helps.

--
//  E. John Benjamins -- <[email protected]>
// Calvin: "Verbing weirds language."
\\ Hobbes: "Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment
\\         to understanding."


From [email protected]  Mon May 31 10:15:55 1993
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